1 00:00:01,160 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in history class from how 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Go well, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Frying and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. So, um, 4 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: I went on vacation and I found out about a thing, 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: and then I came back and I don't want vacation 6 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: to be over. So we're gonna talk about that. This 7 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: happens to both of us from time to time. Even 8 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: if I go on vacation and I think, Okay, I'm 9 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: just gonna take a breather and not not think about 10 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 1: work related things. Oh yeah, I'll be walking around and 11 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: find some fascinating thing that then becomes an episode of 12 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: the podcast. Yeah, that is exactly what happened. I was 13 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:48,919 Speaker 1: so sworn because there's been a lot of stuff going on. 14 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: I've been very busy and very stressed, and I was 15 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: so sworn that I was not going to deal with 16 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: work stuff for the week that we were away, and 17 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,639 Speaker 1: then about three days and I was like, oh day, 18 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: I'm totally doing it. So, uh, my beloved and I 19 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 1: recently went to Hawaii. Yeah, it's one of my favorite 20 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: places on Earth. I'm very attached to it. I cry 21 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: when I leave um and the resort that we were 22 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 1: at had a lot of Mannahuna theming, because you're a 23 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: Disney's Alanie, they have a whole thing about it. And 24 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: there are these little figures that are everywhere in playful poses, 25 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: and they're kind of hidden in plants and in corners. 26 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: And we had been talking to one of the staff 27 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: about other things, and my husband asked about it, and 28 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 1: that gentlemen described the manahuna as Hawaii's leprechns. And then 29 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: one of his colleagues it was nearby, was like, that 30 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: is way too simple, Like that's not really right. You're 31 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: telling these people something that they're gonna not understand later. 32 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: So then I was like, okay, break down. Uh. And 33 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: then I wanted to go do a bunch of reading 34 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: about it. So here's the thing. This becomes one of 35 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: those history pieces that is very tricky to examine for 36 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: a couple of reasons. For one, the minhune will tell 37 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: you exactly what they are, and I shouldn't have used 38 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: the word exactly because there is no exact but they're 39 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: part of an oral history, and of course that in 40 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: and of itself is sort of a place where it's 41 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: easy for facts to get a little shifty, and then 42 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: once it starts to appear in books and other media 43 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:27,239 Speaker 1: that's written by outsiders, this whole thing is often sensationalized 44 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: or misinterpreted. UM. For example, of their episodes of shows 45 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: like Finding Bigfoot, the talk about the Minnuhune and I'm 46 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: not throwing any shade of that show if you love it, 47 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: but that is definitely more geared towards enticing viewers with 48 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: tantalizing miss stories that are framed as possibly real uh 49 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: more than maybe sort of really delving into like anthropological 50 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: reasons for for mythology and whatnot. And there was actually 51 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: another show and I'm forgetting the name of it that 52 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: I found on the History Channel that kind of had 53 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: the same even impetus point as me, where it's like 54 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 1: we're at Disney sound LANDI and then these things and 55 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 1: we're gonna search it out. But even so it wasn't 56 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: uh and which seemed lovely, but again it gets into 57 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: this weird interpretation thing where you want to get viewers in, 58 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: and so you may be like, there their cuts to 59 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 1: commercial clearly where all cliffhangers about these little people were real, 60 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: So we don't want to do that. The other problem 61 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: is that this story has also been used as part 62 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: of tourism branding. It's even Minnahune have even appeared on 63 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: like product branding, and it's part of this sort of 64 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 1: casual storytelling that gets told. If you go to any 65 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: like Hawaii uh tourism site, they probably have something about it, 66 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: and so it gets kind of put in this um 67 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: narrative that's about being really fun, but that sort of 68 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: steps it farther and farther away from any sort of 69 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: historical record that we actually have. So I thought it 70 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: would be fun to actually really delve into this sort 71 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: of legend and myth area and talk about why it 72 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: continues to be a thing, how it has shifted, etcetera. 73 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: So that's what we're doing to a you guys get 74 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: to come on Holly's extended I can't bear to be 75 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: back in Reality Vacation episodes. So first we'll talk about 76 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: the legend of the Minna June. It's estimated that the 77 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: Hawaiian Islands were first occupied by humans somewhere between three 78 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: hundred and eight hundred cees. So these earliest inhabitants arrived 79 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: in canoes, having traveled from the Marquess Islands, which is 80 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: about twenty three hundred miles south of the Hawaiian Islands. 81 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: So also they're in the Pacific Ocean for a sense 82 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: of distance right as a modern day flight that would 83 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: still take hours and hours and hours, and that is 84 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: with the benefit of UH modern technology and guidance systems. 85 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: So this journey by canoe from the Marqueses Islands, presumably 86 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: navigating via the stars, would have been no joke whatsoever. 87 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: And those early settlers landed on Hawaii's Big Island and 88 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: then using the plants and other resources that they brought 89 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: with them, they set up in agrarian culture. A second 90 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: wave of Polynesian people's is believed to have arrived in 91 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: the Hawaiian Islands around eleven hundred and this wave was 92 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: from Tahiti, and sometimes it's described as an invasion there. 93 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: Their arrival is characterized as one in which the newcomers 94 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 1: conquered the inhabitants who were descended from that earlier group 95 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: from the Marquess Islands. Yes, sometimes uh it sounds like 96 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: there was some aggression, and other times it's just described 97 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,280 Speaker 1: as uh that previous group was basically terrified of these 98 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: newcomers and kind of ran but According to the legend, 99 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 1: the tiny people known as the Minnahune were on Hawaii 100 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: before either of the mar Causes or the Tahitian Islanders. 101 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 1: And we're going to talk about how these three groups 102 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: actually all tied together in this myth a little bit 103 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: later in the show. So, these tiny folks who described 104 00:05:53,040 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: as being two or three feet tall, very approximately a meter. Yeah, 105 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: you'll see a range in there too. Some will say 106 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: as small as six inches even, but most of the 107 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: averages are between two and three feet. Yeah, And they're 108 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 1: said to have lived on the Hawaiian Islands before any 109 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: humans arrived there. Sometimes they're described as an ongoing hidden 110 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: forest culture that still exists today, with sightings still being 111 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: reported from time to time. And there are a number 112 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 1: of different stories about how the Manahuna may have arrived 113 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 1: in the islands. Many of them involved some kind of 114 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: nature linked polytheistic spiritual stories that are common in the 115 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: Hawaiian religion. While the minnahan are sometimes described as a 116 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 1: sort of Hawaiian analog to creatures like lepre cons as 117 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: I mentioned in the intro, or elves, fairies, or gnomes, 118 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: there is a really significant distinction, and it's that Manahuna 119 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: are not generally described as having any sort of magical powers. 120 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: They are just small people who live in the forest 121 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 1: and have an incredible work ethic, and the manahuna are 122 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 1: described as skilled craftspeople. According to Led, they build at 123 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: night and if anyone were to see them at work, 124 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: the work would be abandoned. So this really reminds me 125 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: for an analog that is maybe not so far off base, 126 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: the story of the shoemaker and the elves very similar. 127 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: While the most extreme versions of this late night work 128 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: myths say that the many Hune would build entire structures overnight, 129 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: other versions merely suggest that they just worked at night, 130 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: but there could be successive nights of labor on a 131 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: given project. Yeah, it kind of depends who, uh you know. Obviously. 132 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: Some of the older, more deeply mythological ones suggests that 133 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: they had like one night complete huge things, uh that 134 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: strange credulity um, and they have been credited with building 135 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: everything from temples to canoes. But we're going to talk 136 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: about four specific sites that are attributed to them. Uh. 137 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: Two will kind of talk about very briefly, the third 138 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: a little bit longer, and than the fourth will get 139 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: into more detail, but at the end of those four 140 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: you will see why those are the ones we chose. 141 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: The first is Neck Island. On Necker Island, which is 142 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: a small northwestern island in Hawaii, there are thirty three 143 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,559 Speaker 1: shrines that are made of stone, and they're often called 144 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: artifacts of the Minnehune. According to legend, Necker Island was 145 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: the last refuge of the Minnehune as they fled other 146 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: Polynesian peoples who had moved to the islands. Necker Island 147 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: was added to the National Register of Historic Places and 148 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: on the Big Island, uh Cahaluu Bay is famed as 149 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: a surfing center, but it has its own connection to 150 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: the Minnehune. There is a breakwater in the bay called 151 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: the Kappaka Menehune. I have probably pronounced that wrong, even 152 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: though I had people from Hawaii pronounced it for me 153 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: while I was uh And this is a long line 154 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: of stonework rock formations that may have at one point 155 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: extended to completely close off the bay, and according to legend, 156 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: the Manahune wanted to make the bay into one big 157 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: fish pond, but a high priest, wanting preserve the great 158 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: surfing there in the bay, tricked the Mannahune into halting 159 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: their work by having a rooster crow in the night, 160 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: and so, according to this story, the Mannahune, having heard 161 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: the rooster, believed that the morning had arrived, and so 162 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: they left their labor, never to return to it. In 163 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four, the area around the bay was added 164 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: to the National Register of Historic Places. Also, the third 165 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: spot is the ale Coco fish Pond, and that's about 166 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: a half mile inland from uh Nowhelie Wheely Harbor on 167 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: the southeast coast to the island of Kawaii. And this 168 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: pond represents early fish farming. It is made up of 169 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: a dirt wall with a stone face that cuts off 170 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: our river bend and creates a fish pond. It's really 171 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: quite clever, uh. And the wall extends about five ft 172 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: uh you know, a little less than two meters above 173 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: the water, and it's four ft so like one point 174 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: three meters wide. It's believed that this pond is more 175 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 1: than a thousand years old, and that stone faced wall, 176 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: according to legend, was built by the many Hune. It's 177 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 1: the oldest fish pond on the island of Kauai and 178 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: it's described in its National Register application as quote, the 179 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: best example of an inland fish pond in the entire state. 180 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: So that document, by the way, also mentions the many 181 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: hune Is its builders. And this lush, vegetation friendly ali 182 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 1: Coco fish pond, which is also known as the Manahunai 183 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: fish pond, was added to the National Register of Historic 184 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: Places in ninety three. We're going to talk about a 185 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: structure that sometimes used as evidence of Manahune construction. But 186 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: before we get to that, we are going to pause 187 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: and have a quick word from one of our sponsors. So, 188 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,079 Speaker 1: also on the island of Kawaii is perhaps the most 189 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: famous of the manahune Is attributed works, and that is 190 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: the kiki Aola Ditch in Weemeya. And this irrigation ditch 191 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: sits at the meeting point of two rivers, the Wameya 192 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: and the Makaile, and it's about seven thousand feet inland. 193 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: This ditch was built again according to an application for 194 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: it to be made a National Historic Site in ur 195 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: as a means of irrigating tarot crops. Taro root is 196 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: used as one of the mainstays of Hawaiian food. Poi 197 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: is made from beating the root into a paste after 198 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,599 Speaker 1: it's been baked. If you have never had poi, it's fascinating. 199 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: I love it, not everybody does. It's one of those 200 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: things you can add a lot of other stuff too. 201 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: We went on a really fun um sailing canoe while 202 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:32,559 Speaker 1: we were there, and we ended up in a whole 203 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 1: big discussion with the crew about poi and how they 204 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: each eat it, which was hilarious because some of them 205 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: grossed each other out with their choices. Um And according 206 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: to legend, this project, the kikia Ola Ditch was built 207 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: by the Mane June under a directive from King Olah 208 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 1: of Waimea, and his name is the Ola and kiki Ola. 209 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: And while it is called a ditch that is maybe 210 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: conjuring not the correct images, it is actually an interesting 211 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: feat of engineering. So not only did this causeway transport 212 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: water at a level above that of the river, but 213 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: it also turns a corner at a cliff's edge in 214 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,959 Speaker 1: the process. And this construction uses a jointed stone dry 215 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: masonry technique that isn't like anything else in the area. 216 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: The stones used for it are cut with squared off 217 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: smooth edges and they fit together really tightly without using 218 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: any mortar. The legend is that the men a Hune 219 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: lined up side by side over a seven mile stretch 220 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: to hand each of the stones down the line, sort 221 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: of like a bucket brigade from the quarry site to 222 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,719 Speaker 1: the construction location of the actual ditch, and all likelihood 223 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: whoever built the ditch to use stone that was closer 224 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: to the actual area. Yeah, this is one of those 225 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: things that there was like a survey that was published 226 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: in the early part of the twentieth century that was like, 227 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: the closest match to this stone is seven miles away. 228 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: But even in that same document it's like, well there's 229 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: also some that's closer, but I guess it was maybe 230 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: not as good as of a match. Um. But the 231 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: ditch was first referenced in writing in sevent and it 232 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: is mentioned in the diary of Captain George Vancouver, who 233 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 1: traveled through the way Maya Valley that year, and based 234 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: on his writing, he and his team were really quite 235 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: impressed with this structure. They wrote, quote, as we proceeded, 236 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: our attention was arrested by an object that greatly excited 237 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,079 Speaker 1: our admiration, and at once put an end to all 238 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: conjecture on the means to which the natives resorted for 239 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 1: the watering of their plantations. A lofty perpendicular cliff now 240 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: presented itself, which, by rising immediately from the river, would 241 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: effectively have stopped our further progress into the country, had 242 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: it not been for an exceedingly well constructed wall of 243 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: stones and clay, about twenty four ft high, raised from 244 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: the bottom by the side of the cliff, which not 245 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: only served as a pass into the country, but also 246 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: as an aqueduct to convey the water brought thither by 247 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: great labor from a considerable distance the place where the 248 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: river descends from the mountains, affording the planters an abundant 249 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:10,079 Speaker 1: stream for the purpose to which it is so advantageously applied. 250 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: This wall did not less credit to the mind of 251 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: the projector than to the skill of the builder. Terminated 252 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: the extent of our walk from whence we returned through 253 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: the plantations, whose highly improved state impressed us with a 254 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: very favorable opinion of the industry and ingenuity of the inhabitants. 255 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: By the late eighteen hundreds, the nickname many who name 256 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: Ditch was being used in reference to this structure, and 257 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: as a random aside. In a book about historical Irrigation 258 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: that was written in nineteen thirty three. Holly found an 259 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: off hand mentioned of a theory that our Russian military 260 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: detachment in a fort near the mouth of the river 261 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: built the ditch in eighteen seventeen. The same book points 262 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: out that since Vancouver's description predates that by a couple 263 00:14:54,480 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: of decades, this theory doesn't hold water. I'm sorry, I 264 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: apologizing for the punt tons, and yet there it is. 265 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: That was my fault. Yeah, it's interesting. I had not 266 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: seen that Russian military detachment theory anywhere else, and it 267 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: just kind of popped up in this really sort of 268 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: obscure book about Hawaiian irrigation history. I was like, what what. 269 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: I couldn't find anything else on it. So Uh. One 270 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: account of this ditch's creation, written by Westerner William Hyde 271 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: Rice in his book Hawaiian Legends, Uh says, quote olah 272 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: the king obtained the promise of the Manahune that they 273 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: would build a water lead at Why Maya. If all 274 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: the people stayed in their houses, the dogs muzzled and 275 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: the chickens shut in calabashes, so that there would be 276 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: no sound on the appointed night. This was done, and 277 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: the Manahune completed the water course before daybreak. Only a 278 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: hundred feet or about thirty point five meters of the 279 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: seven thousand foot length of this ditch shows this ancient 280 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: stone work. There's another hundred feet of burmed ditch that 281 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: is also believed to be from the original work on 282 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: the structure, but it doesn't have that stone work. A 283 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: road was built along the ditch in nineteen twenty and 284 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: during that time a lot of modifications were made, really 285 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: without regard to historical preservation. Additionally, there are pieces of 286 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: stone work that we're taken by residents and construction workers 287 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: who were working on that road to use them for 288 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: other uses, so significant pieces of the original ditch have 289 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: been lost. The ditch does still function as a form 290 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: of irrigation though, and as we mentioned a moment ago, 291 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: an application was filed in four for this ditch to 292 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: be added to the National Register of Historic Locations, and 293 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: that application was approved. So that keeps coming up, and 294 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: if you're counting, that makes four sites on the National 295 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: Register that are attributed either in part or in total 296 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: to the work of the Minahune. So this is really impressive. 297 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: We don't generally see a lot of applications for official 298 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: historical designations that credit uh an element of mythology for 299 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 1: their creation, Like that's not a thing that comes up 300 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: over and over. Um. But there are a couple of 301 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: explanations that have been offered to explain this whole myth 302 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: from the perspective of what really happened. And UM, I 303 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: will say, before we get into these explanations, they're not 304 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: ultra satisfying, So just brace UM. So. One theory that 305 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: lends the Menouni myth a little bit of real world validation, though, 306 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 1: is that it may have been bolstered by encounters with 307 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: Japanese travelers to Hawaii. In a two thousand nine article 308 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 1: written for Smithsonian by oceanographer Curtis Ebbesmeyer and journalist Eric Sigliano, 309 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: the pair describe how currents of the Pacific have been 310 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 1: landing Japanese mariners at unintended locations for thousands of years, 311 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: and the course of the article they write quote the 312 00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: Japanese presence in Hawaii may go back much further Hawaii 313 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: and legend recounts that the first Polynesian settlers they're encountered 314 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: diminutive mine June, little people, marvelous craftsmen who still dwell 315 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 1: in deep forests and secret valleys. At the time, the 316 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: Japanese were more than a foot shorter than the average 317 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: Polynesians and adept at many strange technologies, from firing pottery 318 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: and spinning silk to forging metal that might indeed have 319 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: seemed like marvels. So it's possible that this myth may 320 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: have been bolstered by at least sightings of these lost 321 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,199 Speaker 1: Japanese mariners who were maybe camping or trying to make 322 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: their way, But that still seems like a really unlikely 323 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 1: source for this whole idea. That seems like a little 324 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: bit of a stretch. In a moment, we're going to 325 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: talk about an intriguing recent discovery that's often related as 326 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: part of the evidence for the Many June, but we're 327 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: going to take another quick sponsor break before we get 328 00:18:52,840 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: to that. A recent addition to efforts to corroborate stories 329 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: of the Minna June is Homo flora Sciences. This is 330 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: also sometimes called the Hobbit. This is a recently discovered 331 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 1: early human skeletal remains were discovered on the island of 332 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 1: Flora's in Indonesia in two thousand three, and that discovery 333 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 1: was made public in two thousand four. So this species 334 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: was tiny, about three and a half feet tall, just 335 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 1: a little over a meter. They had small brains about 336 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 1: the size of an orange, large teeth, and large feet, 337 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,640 Speaker 1: which is how they got this hobbit nickname. Fossil evidence 338 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 1: indicates that they used stone tools and they hunted, and 339 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: tools found at the site have been dated back as 340 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,959 Speaker 1: far as a hundred and ninety thousand years ago. They 341 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 1: might have used fire for cooking based on charred stegged 342 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: on bones that were found in the cave and the 343 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 1: female skeleton that was found in two thousand three by 344 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 1: a team that was actually they're trying to track Homo 345 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: sapiens migration from Asia to Australia was named LB one. 346 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,719 Speaker 1: That's after leong Bua Cave where it was found, and 347 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 1: that skeleton was dated to about eighty thousand years ago. 348 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: And since the discovery of LB one as part of 349 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: that bigger thing, it wasn't like these happened way later. 350 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: They were all kind of in a in a big 351 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 1: discovery arc uh. Remains of another twelve separate individuals have 352 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: also been recovered, with dating ranging from one thousand to 353 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: sixty thousand years of age. For the various specimens, but 354 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: the only place that Homo floresciences has been found is 355 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: in that one cave, so we don't know if this 356 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: was a species that evolved in isolation, or if they 357 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 1: traveled elsewhere or anything. And this was again in Indonesia, naturally, 358 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: though this has raised ideas that Homo floresciences might be 359 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: linked to the manahuna in some way. Because this discovery 360 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: is still quite new, there is a lot of debate 361 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 1: about to find about its meaning in the Earth's timeline. Initially, 362 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: it was believed that these people were wiped out by 363 00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,679 Speaker 1: a volcanic eruption about twelve thousand years ago. More recently, 364 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 1: it's been suggested that it was really modern humans traveling 365 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: through Indonesia as far back as fifty thousand years ago 366 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: that led to their extinction. And there are we should say, 367 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,479 Speaker 1: scientists that believe that classifying this discovery as a new 368 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: species is in fact wrong, and that this is a 369 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: case of modern human society that had a mutation or 370 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 1: a disorder in the small isolated gene pool that they 371 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: had just living on this one island. There is also 372 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 1: on that same island of species of pygmy elephant that 373 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: similarly had uh, you know, a an adaptation or a 374 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: mutation depending on how you want to look at it, 375 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: from being isolated. So they kind of used that as 376 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: evidence of like, hey, this was probably also happening with 377 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:48,239 Speaker 1: these humans here. So there are lots of stories and 378 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: myths that are connected to the Minnehune, and a lot 379 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: of them are really compelling. These explanations of Japanese travelers 380 00:21:55,640 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: and homofluoresciensis offer some you know, pretty interesting ideas connected 381 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: to the story. Yeah, there are interesting ways to rationalize it, 382 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 1: but the problem that keeps coming up is that there 383 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 1: is literally no hard evidence of an actual two to 384 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: three foot tall race of forest people on the Hawaiian Islands. 385 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: The evidence has often used as proof of the existence 386 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: of the Menna June in that form is real and 387 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: that it exists, so like that pond and that ditch 388 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: that are named after them, those are real structures, but 389 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 1: there hasn't ever been any evidence or finds that show 390 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: actual short forest dwelling humans on the Hawaiian Islands. One 391 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: possibility that I think is really interesting is that these 392 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: stories actually predate human arrival from the Hawaiian Islands and 393 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: they traveled along with Hawaii's early settlers as part of 394 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: their own cultural history. So they are like a belief 395 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: that goes so far back that it came to Hawaii 396 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 1: with its first human inhabitants. Yeah, and there's also a 397 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 1: theory that that first wave of Marqueses Island settlers built 398 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: those various structs that have been attributed to the Manahune, 399 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 1: and that when the second wave of settlers from Tahiti 400 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: arrived on the island several hundred years later, they found 401 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: that stonework ditch, the stone wall, etcetera. And they developed 402 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: the myth of the Manahune over time to explain the 403 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: existence of them. One of the other aspects to unraveling 404 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 1: this myth is linguistic. There were three clearly delineated classes 405 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: in both Hawaiian and Tahitian early history. Tahiti's lowest class 406 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: was called Manahune. Since that Tahitian wave of settlers, it's 407 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: usually described as taking over the lands of the original 408 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 1: group who first came to Hawaii. It's also possible that 409 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: there's this multi layered aspect to the blurring of the 410 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: Manahune story. It's likely that they considered the people they 411 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: conquered to be manahune or the lowest status, so it's 412 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 1: not too far of a jump to consider that over 413 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: the years and over all the retellings, especially as in 414 00:23:55,840 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: an oral history context, this meaning of lower transformed uh 415 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 1: and to referring to their height instead of to their 416 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: social class, leading to the idea that they were physically 417 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: smaller people. But perhaps the most likely and something that 418 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 1: some historians really put forth as the actual source of 419 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: all of this is the theory that the oral history 420 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 1: was probably misinterpreted when it was retold by outsiders who 421 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: were wishing to transfer it to the written record. For example, 422 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: in that book we referenced earlier called Hawaiian Legends by 423 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,199 Speaker 1: William Hyde Rice that we referenced um, the Manahuna are 424 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: described in pretty quaint storytelling style terms, and while the 425 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: author is clearly intending to relay a myth, the manner 426 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 1: in which he writes also makes it seem as though 427 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 1: he's stating facts. So here's an excerpt. The Manahuna were 428 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: small people, but they were broad and muscular and possessed 429 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: great strength. Contrary to common belief, they were not possessed 430 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: of any supernatural powers. But it was solely the account 431 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 1: of their tremendous strength and energy, and they're great numbers 432 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: that they were a well to accomplish the wonderful things 433 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 1: they did. These Pygmy people were both obedient and industrious, 434 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: always obeying their leaders. To further complicate matters, Rice then 435 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: goes on to describe all the places that you can see, 436 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: the paths and trails and other structures of the Manna June, 437 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 1: and this blend of fact and fiction writing style seems 438 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,719 Speaker 1: to have fed back into the modern version of the myth. Yeah, 439 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: I mean it's it struck me so strongly reading his 440 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: his account that he doesn't delineate between when he is 441 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: telling the story and when he is relaying factual evidence, 442 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 1: and it gets really blurry. This reminds me of that 443 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: episode we did that was all about ghost ships and 444 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 1: how there was a fictionalized version of one of those 445 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: ghost ships stories that people interpreted its fact and even 446 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: now like you find the facts, facts and quotation marks 447 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: from that fictional story as the description of how it 448 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: happen bend. Yeah. And it's also worth noting that Rice 449 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: was one of the men who combined business in politics 450 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: and the overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom, so his retelling 451 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,640 Speaker 1: of these myths was, whether consciously or unconsciously, almost certainly 452 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: colored by his perceptions of the Hawaiian people, as he 453 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 1: himself was a member of an Anglo family that was 454 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: living on the islands and acquiring a great deal of 455 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,919 Speaker 1: land and power, often at the expense of the native islanders. 456 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: So it does not seem likely that there was a 457 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 1: literal race of tiny, nocturnal people living in the forests 458 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 1: of Hawaii building things in the middle of the night. 459 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 1: But there may well have been a group of skilled 460 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 1: laborers whose work was attributed to a mythical people. I mean, 461 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,479 Speaker 1: someone built all these structures that we talked about earlier 462 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: in the episode. Yeah, to me, it makes the most 463 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 1: sense that that uh, that Tahitian word manna june has 464 00:26:54,720 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: shifted over time and caused this confusion between lower class 465 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: and lower height. But again, we'll probably never know. This 466 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: is so far back in history, And I don't want 467 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 1: to rob anyone of the fun of the stories of 468 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 1: the mine because it's very very endearing stuff, and it's 469 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 1: really charming and fun and every I mean mythology is 470 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: like wonderful and powerful and has great meaning. But it 471 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:21,719 Speaker 1: is some of those things that merits a little bit 472 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: of examination. I think. Do you also have a listener 473 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 1: mail for us? I do. It's listener mail that kind 474 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: of cracked me up. Uh. This is from our listener, Kristen. 475 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: She writes, Dear Holly and Tracy, I just listened to 476 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: your podcast about Pauline Sabin. You mentioned that Pauline outlived 477 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: multiple husbands and was buried next to her second husband 478 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 1: and not her third. I had to giggle at your 479 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 1: discussion over how to choose which husband to be buried 480 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: next to. My great grandmother solved this dilemma in the 481 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: most delightful way. When her first husband died, burial plots 482 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,959 Speaker 1: were purchased for her whole family, which included her and 483 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 1: their young son. She remarried a few years later and 484 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 1: eventually outlived that husband and as well already owning burial plots. 485 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 1: Her second husband was interred at the other end of 486 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 1: the row of three. So when my grandmother passed, she 487 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 1: was laid to rest in the plot between the two. 488 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: I can't imagine a more clever solution than to choose both. Uh. Incidentally, 489 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 1: she says, I live in Nebraska. Her child goes to 490 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: an elementary school that is named after Pauline's grandfather, j 491 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 1: Sterling Morton. That's a really fun story. It is one 492 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: of those things that I always wonder about. Um, it's 493 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: a discussion that has come up in my family from 494 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 1: time to time and we kind of giggle about it. 495 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: Then people feel uncomfortable and shut it down. So I'm 496 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: glad to hear how somebody else's family handled it, uh, 497 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: and that there's this cool connection to the story of 498 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: Pauline save in there. So thank you, Kristen. 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