WEBVTT - Mary Roach Discusses "Fuzz: When Nature Breaks the Law" 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:05.200 My welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:14.000 of My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:16.600 Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:19.640 Joe McCormick. In today's episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:23.280 we have a special interview guest. It's science writer Mary Roach. 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:25.840 We're gonna be chatting with her about her new book 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:29.680 fuzz When Nature Breaks the Law, which is out today 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:32.640 wherever you get your books. This is my first Mary 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:36.760 Roach book, and I love it. It. I I feel 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:39.199 ashamed now that I had never read one of her 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:43.640 books before. Um, but she has such an infectious and 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:47.280 enjoyable prose style that really gets in your head. Um. 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:49.239 One of the things that I wanted to emphasize in 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:52.239 the intro here because because I've just been thinking about it. 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:55.360 In terms of subject matter, this book gets into a 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:59.240 lot of kind of dark and grizzly sounding stuff. But 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:02.880 it is but despite that, it is a really funny book. 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:05.080 It is like one of the most laugh out loud 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:08.479 funny books I've read in a long time. Yeah, it's engaging, 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:11.520 it's weird, it's fun. Um. I was telling my wife 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:14.800 about the book and she's read Mary Roach before, and 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:16.880 my wife was like, well, some of that sounds a 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:18.080 little dark. I don't know, I want to read that 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:20.320 right now. But but of course this has always been 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:22.399 the way with Mary roach books. There. They do get 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:26.919 into dark territory, but they are always fun and and humorous. 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:30.320 Um if you're not familiar out there. Her previous books 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:34.600 include two thousand three Stiff, which is about cadaver's two 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:39.479 thousand five Spook, which is about scientific inquiries, especially early 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:43.480 scientific inquiries into the supernatural, two thousand eights Bunk, which 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:47.480 is about sexuality, two thousand tens Packing for Mars, which 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:53.560 is about the science scientific research into UH into into 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:56.440 the Quest for Space, two thousand thirteens Gulp, which is 0:01:56.440 --> 0:02:01.600 about human digestion uh and then two thousands sixteen book 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:07.320 was Grunt, which is about military scientific investigations. I've read 0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:09.760 all of these, and I think this is the This 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:12.160 is the fourth time Mary has actually been on stuff 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:14.760 to blow your mind, as she previously dropped in to 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:17.920 talk about Packing from Mars, Gulp, and Grunt. She's either 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:20.560 our most featured guest at this point or she's tied 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:23.440 for the honors. I can't remember either way. Friend of 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:28.799 the show's status is definitely in place. Mary Roach, thanks 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:32.240 for joining us today. Could you introduce yourself? Of course, 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:38.720 I'm Mary Roach. As you said, I have a nonfiction author, 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:42.400 and my most recent book is called Fuzz Sometimes When 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:46.800 Nature Breaks the Law. I have been so enjoying this book. 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:50.919 I love your dry, humorous prose style in it. And 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:54.880 I thought, before we got any broader questions about about 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:57.200 the book and what you've learned from writing it, I 0:02:57.200 --> 0:02:58.720 thought it would be good to kick off with an 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:01.680 example of the kinds of speriences you cover in the book. 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:04.200 And so I loved the story you cover in the 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:07.920 very first chapter about the wildlife Human Attack Response training 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:11.160 course you went through in Las Vegas. Could you tell 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:14.359 us a bit about this conference and and what got 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:17.640 you there and what it was like? Sure? Sure, yeah. 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:23.840 It's called uh Wildlife Human Attack Response Training UH or WART, 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:28.320 which by its founders admission, is a terrible acronym. So 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:31.480 WART is a five day course which I was lucky 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:34.240 enough to be able to sit in on, and it's 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:39.560 most almost entirely attended by people who deal with wildlife 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:43.440 attacks the aftermath of the attack. And it's basically, you know, 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:46.040 you're setting up a crime scene and you're doing forensics 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:47.600 as you might in the case of a human on 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:52.680 human killing, uh, and you're trying to trying to take evidence, 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:57.640 collect evidence, established linkage between the perpetrator and the victim. Um. 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:01.400 And if they they caught an animal that they think 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:04.120 might be the animal and the DNA doesn't match or 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:07.160 they don't they're not able to establish that language, they'll 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:11.520 release the animals. So there's these bizarre parallels to the 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:15.720 human the human criminal justice system. But for me, it 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:18.279 was just a fascinating five days of hanging out and 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:21.919 hearing a lot about predator attacks and the aftermath, which 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:28.159 was both fascinating and often quite grizzly. G R. I. Yes, 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:33.440 it's not easy. Um. So Yeah, it was utterly fascinating 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:36.600 to me because I've you know, I've never encountered this 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:39.280 world and did not know that these prime scenes were 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:42.080 processed that way and that this work was done. Yeah. 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:45.480 So you include some details about like, uh, these sessions 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:47.880 where you would be given a mannequin that had these 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:50.960 wounds inflicted on it with saws and knives and things, 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:53.760 and you'd have to establish what type of animal it 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:57.560 was from the wounds on the mannequin. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:00.560 They had these soft touch mannequins. They're not like something 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:03.400 you'd see in a store window. They were. They were 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:07.040 you know, they're fleshy, I'll say fleshy. And they were. 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:10.560 The people who had created these wounds were people who've 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:12.840 seen they I mean, they were based on actual bodies 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:16.960 and the wounds on the victims of attacks. Some of 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:20.520 them bear, some of them cougar or mountain lion. Um 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:24.880 and uh quite uh quite realistic, I have to say. 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:28.200 And and so they were, they were. We all had workstations, 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:30.080 you know, they were about it. There were about I 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:34.160 think eight or more, maybe a few more workstations each 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:38.720 group had, uh, mock victim. And the idea was, look 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:41.320 at these wounds and what can you learn? And you 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:45.840 can pretty quickly, uh make a distinction between first of all, 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:50.120 human versus animal and then um uh mountain lion versus bag. 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:53.320 They kill in very different ways. They have very different 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.159 teeth and claws, and the marks on the body and 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:59.800 the wounds will tell you, um, quite readily who the 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:04.000 perpetrator or what species the perpetrator was. Um. And then 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:08.120 after that is established and you sort of you're moving 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:12.240 down to more than nitty gritty of looking at saliva, 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:15.080 you know, matching DNA between the victim and the animal. 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:17.560 So you might be doing that with saliva on the 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:21.880 victim's body or blood. You might be looking into the 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:26.279 gums of the animal to see is their human tissue 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:29.760 there and does is that? Does that match the victim, 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:32.360 So you'd be just like you might do on you know, 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:35.760 C S I or one of those shows that I 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:40.359 never watched, but those forensics shows so uh, super interesting stuff. 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:43.159 One of the details from the section that really stuck 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:45.560 with me was in warning to everyone, this is about 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:48.919 to get gruesome. The idea of since bears tend to 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:51.640 when they do attack humans, which is rare, but when 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:54.160 they do, they tend to bite repeatedly at the face 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:58.159 that you might expect to say, find human facial features 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:00.919 like lips or something, it's stuck in the bear's teeth 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:06.560 or the stomach. You would examine the bear's stomach contents 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:10.960 and they're you know, they're they're not necessarily chewing all 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:13.160 that thoroughly, and so you might find, you know, an 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:17.280 entire i or in one case, a part of the 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:20.760 scalp with a mohawk haircut and which in fact match 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:26.520 the victim's hairstyle. So yeah, with bears, because bears when 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:29.360 they attack each other, they use their teeth and go 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:31.760 for the face. They go for each other's face because 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:34.560 that's lightly furred and they can inflict more damage. And 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:37.120 that's the sets. They're kind of Achilles heel, which is 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:41.560 in there their head, not their foot. Uh So they're 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:45.480 that's kind of what they do and when that which 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:51.720 makes for some pretty horrible injuries. Also, you see that 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:55.800 also um with with cougars because they they're biting at 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:58.640 the neck. But sometimes you know when um, I use 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:02.040 the comparison and in rather grizzly, but when you think 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:05.680 of biting into a very ripe plum, how when you 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:09.080 bite into it, the skin pulls away. So so what 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:13.000 you sometimes have is kind of these scalpings as it work. 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:15.040 Was that you know, if you if you try, if 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:16.680 you're an animal and you're trying to get your jaw 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:20.040 around a human head, you're hitting bone right away, and 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:24.280 then you close your jaws and it pulls the skin away. 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:28.640 So some of these um mannequins were really a little 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:31.920 tough to tough to see and I can imagine coming 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:35.079 upon the real thing would be pretty disturbing. But one 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:38.480 of the interesting things that is this is a takeaway 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:40.720 from observing all these different kinds of wounds, is that 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:44.720 almost all of them indicate that we are not really 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:48.240 what this animal has evolved to use its jaws or 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:51.520 claws on. And so like you described with the with 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:53.439 the cougars biting the back of the head or bears 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:57.960 attacking humans, the bites almost reveal the strangeness of this 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:01.120 encounter between the human and the animal. Write a bear 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:09.160 bears eat, I mean they're they're mostly eating nuts, berries, fruit, um, 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:14.080 if sometimes fish, grasses. So they have molars that they 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:16.120 have a jaw that goes side to side, and they've 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:20.280 got molars for crushing and grinding um. So there, So 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:24.120 the bites on a human, it's a it's it's messy, 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:26.560 is the way it was put. It's kind of a 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:30.920 messy affair. Whereas uh, a mountain lion is does a 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:35.160 leaps attacks secures, the pride does a killing bite. So 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:39.120 these puncture wounds, these triangular puncture wounds, it's a less 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:42.679 messy death, if you will. So, yeah, you can really 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:47.040 see how the animals equipped to gather its food and uh. 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:49.920 And with mountain lions, yeah, they do tend to they 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:53.320 pounce and kill. They are predators and true carnivores, but 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:56.520 they're not true We're not on the menu they like 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:59.720 deer or wild pigs or they're not They're not going 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:03.800 after humans. Very very rarely a whole decade, we'll go 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:06.360 buy in California where we don't have a single mountain 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:11.200 lion fatality. It's just a very unusual occurrence. Now, speaking 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:15.120 of bears, I re really I really enjoyed the how, 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:16.840 not only with the bear chapter, but you know, multiple 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:21.400 chapters in the book. You you kind of you turn 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:23.679 our pre existing notions of these animals kind of on 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:25.760 their head, even if we think that our pre existing 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:29.200 notions are kind of you know, well informed. Uh, but 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:31.200 with the with the bear in particular, when you're talking 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:35.160 about the break ins that are perpetrated by bears and 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:38.760 in these cases, how it seems like the bear is 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:40.880 such a contradiction. Can you speak to like some of 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:44.400 those some of those details about like how how reckless 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:49.120 they can be, but then so how just almost hauntingly precise. Sure, Yeah, 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:53.680 I spent some time in um Picken County, Colorado, on 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:57.600 the outskirts of downtown Aspen, up in the hills. Um, 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:01.319 and this is a ski or as or town. We're 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:04.240 up in the mountains. We are in bear territory. Uh 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:08.600 and so uh the bears are in. The bears start 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:12.400 to realize nuts and berries, these are great, grab apples, 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:15.199 choke cherry, this is great. But these humans, these humans 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.480 seem to have some really good stuff inside their homes. 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:23.559 And a bear that kind of realizes that surprisingly adept 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:27.000 at popping a window or even turning. They call the 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:30.520 bear handles their French door handles, which you just pushed 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:33.679 down on and pushed the door and it opens quite easily. 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:37.200 So bears are find it very easy to to get 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:41.640 into two people's homes and people are sometimes surprised. It 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:44.200 depends on the bear. But some bears like the break 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:46.760 in that where I went to the aftermath of this 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:51.520 break in, and the bear had gone through a downstairs, 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:54.640 through a deck leading to a bedroom downstairs, and then 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:58.760 up to the kitchen. Didn't knock anything over. Uh, didn't 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:03.240 even leave footprint sun bears. Um. The guy who the 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:06.360 wildlife invested was Colorado Fish and Game and fish and 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:09.640 wildlife that he was talking about, how they they will 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:12.360 sometimes reach in like take out a carton of eggs 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:14.880 and inside, or or take out things that they don't 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:19.320 want to put them aside. One bear allegedly opened hers 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:24.320 she's kiss open the foil her. She's kiss uh and 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:27.720 and ate that. So there there, um, yeah, they there. 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:30.720 While they can create, you know, a god awful mess, 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:33.840 whether it's on a body or in someone's kitchen, sometimes 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:39.000 they're surprisingly um precise and laid back. It's it's interesting 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:44.559 how different their person individual personalities are. Was it from uh, 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:47.120 the person you were speaking with the Colorado Fish and 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:50.040 Wildlife that you got that fact about, or at least 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:52.920 the allegation that some of these bears apparently have brand 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:55.600 preferences when it comes to ice cream, like they really 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:59.360 like Hogin does, but they don't like the store brand. Yes, 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:02.600 it was. It was. It was a woman from the 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:06.439 neighboring town is It's Snowmass. I think the it's a 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:10.600 it's a again a mountain resort ski and mountain biking 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:13.440 resort town, Tina White I believe her name was, And 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:17.640 she said that the black bears in the area they 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:21.920 prefer premium brands. They will not touch Western Family ice Cream, 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:23.880 which I guess is like a low rent brand that 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:26.920 they have in Colorado, and they're like, no, no, no, 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:31.720 thank you. I gotta say the parts of that chapter 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.440 where you were talking about the bears getting into the trash, 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:38.000 the unsecured trash outside of fancy restaurants, that was really 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:40.040 making me hungry when you were listing all the foods 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:42.439 they were stabbing their snouts into, so the rotten Barata 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:48.280 cheese and the and the sustainable sicunas salon, and exactly 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:55.599 if they were like, this is some good, thank you, 0:13:55.760 --> 0:14:00.040 thank Let's see. Let's let's go a little broader for 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.640 a second here and just talk about the book itself, 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:06.000 which again is fuzz when when nature breaks the law. 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:07.920 I was just wondering, how how long have you been 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:10.800 planning this particular book, and is there is there anything 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:13.000 in particular that you can point to as being like 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:15.880 the inspiration point that led you down this road. Oh, 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:18.720 I wish I had a great origin story because people 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:22.840 people often ask about that, and um I came to 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:25.520 it this one and it's a really kind of circuitous 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:30.920 roundabout not necessarily all that interesting. Half I had originally 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:35.640 gotten interested in wildlife crime scene forensics, but not when 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:38.040 the animals are the perpetrators, but when the animals are 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:41.440 the victims. So I was up at this forensics lab 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:44.320 that the Fish and Wildlife Department has, talking to this 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:48.480 woman who was an expert in how to tell counterfeit 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:54.000 versus genuine dried tiger penis, because of course it's illegal 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:58.000 to traffic and animal endangered animal parts. And uh, as 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:00.960 it turns out, almost all as was being passed off 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:03.720 as tiger penis is deer or horse or cow, partly 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:06.560 because those are easier to come by, and they're bigger 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:09.240 and more impressive. And if you're trying to quote unquote 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:15.440 cure erectile discilation or make yourself more virile, a little 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:18.960 tiger penis doesn't. It doesn't have the right optics. Anyway, 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:21.480 that's a long winded way of saying. I was up 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:26.880 at this lab, the Vision Wildlife National Wildlife Forensics Laboratory, 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:29.480 and I thought, well, this this could be an interesting area. 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:31.480 But as it turns out, I was not going to 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:34.280 be able to follow any open investigations. I wasn't to 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:36.480 be able to tag along with investigators and do the 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:38.880 kind of thing I really have to do for my 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:42.280 books to make it interesting for myself hopefully for the reader. 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:45.080 So that was a dead end, and I kind of 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:47.840 various other things happened. But I eventually thought, well, what 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:50.480 if I turned it around, and what if the animals 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:53.400 were the perpetrators and the people are the victims, and 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:57.240 and you know what, what would what's to be done there? 0:15:57.480 --> 0:15:59.880 And I learned that there's in fact a whole science 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:04.400 this devoted to this, called human wildlife conflict and the 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:08.240 science of human wildlife conflict, and there's conventions and scientists 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:10.840 and researchers. So I thought that could be an interesting 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:15.280 world to step into. So it was a circuitous path, 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:18.920 it wasn't It wasn't. I have not been attacked, or 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:22.840 not until the book, by any animal. That's right, you were. 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:25.640 You were robbed by a monkey. I was mugged by 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:28.880 cac Yes, I was. So when I when I picked 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:30.160 up the book and was getting into it, you know, 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:32.880 I expected a lot of it, of course, to be 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:36.440 happening in a contemporary setting and dealing with our modern world, 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:38.960 thinking like, okay, this is where the legal system has 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:40.920 led and this is where you know, the growth of 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:43.480 human populations and expansion has led. So I was I 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:46.600 was really surprised and interested when you mentioned a book 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:50.480 from nineteen o six, The Criminal Prosecution and Punishment of Animals. 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:53.280 But I believe E. P. Evans, Can you talk a 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:56.080 little bit about this? Sure, that's something I came upon 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:59.760 very early on and also pushed me towards this topic. 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:04.200 A bizarre book. This is a book detailing the things 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:08.920 that human societies used to do to deal with animals 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:13.879 and insects that were committing crimes against them. Crimes in 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:17.639 the sense of following our laws, you know, stealing or 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:22.080 or committing manslaughter. And what used to happen is that 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:26.639 they were uh, criminally prosecuted. The example I given the 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:29.119 book is this case. It's from sixteen fifty nine in 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:34.480 Northern Italy, a province in northern Italy, and um caterpillars 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:39.000 were eating a lot of the crops, lettuces, whatever they were. 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:42.119 And these caterpillars will do they're hungry, They've got, you know, 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:46.919 bulk up for their little transition. And so the community 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:50.760 that the um whoever the magistrate or the head person 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:54.680 was posted summons legal summons on the trees in the area. 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:58.920 Requesting that the caterpillars appear in court on a set date, 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:02.760 at which point the summons said they would be assigned 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:08.000 legal representation and a trial would ensue. And of course 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:11.159 the caterpillars did not appear in court, but by that 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:15.200 time had pupated, weren't causing any problems anymore. But but 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:18.560 that's this book. It's like four hundred pages of well 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:23.800 documented situations and cases. There were, you know, livestock, some 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:27.239 of it pigs, pigs killing small children. Not don't care 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:30.280 about that happening much today, but apparently used to happen 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:36.240 with some frequency. The pigs being tried, executed, sometimes imprisoned. 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:38.359 And I thought this, I almost thought this was a 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:42.240 hoax because it was so so bizarre. But the bat 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:45.399 be appendix as a number of these documents and um 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:48.080 in some detail in Latin a lot of the times, 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:51.760 sometimes French. Uh, And so it was. It was real, 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:55.480 and it was not that there were just simple minded people. 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:57.720 It was the way, the way the author explained it. 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:02.920 It was a way to um display the breadth of 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:05.920 your powers as as a legal entity or as a leader, 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:08.840 you know, even nature must follow my rules, and you 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:11.320 will be punished so it's kind of a display, kind 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:15.680 of ludicrous, but a display of dominion and power and 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:20.960 I control all so. But but the the details were 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:25.040 quite quite amazing. I mean people ritz w r I 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:28.680 t rits of ejectment that were stucked into the burrows 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.280 of rats like you must leave the must they get 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:36.720 the premises under penalty of law. Honestly, legal system not 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:39.679 the best approach of the animals. They don't read, they 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:43.480 don't care. They just want a place to have a 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:46.080 nest or get something to eat, and we offer that 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:48.040 and they take advantage of it. These are crimes of 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:51.480 opportunity for the most part. Anyway that that book is 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:54.760 a fascinating it thought particularly easy to get through, but 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:59.200 a fascinating read. Nineteen o six when the book was published. 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:01.840 Do you think these kinds of legal actions were at 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:06.760 all um based on a certain theological understanding of law. 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:09.880 I don't recall any mention of this in the book, 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:12.840 but you know, was there an idea that maybe if 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:17.959 you issued a certain kind of legitimate uh sanctioned by 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:21.800 the court, that somehow God would enforce it or something. Yeah, yes, 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:24.639 there there definitely was a religious element. There was this 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:28.439 sense that this belief that these plagues and these um 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:32.359 actions of these animals were being or a punishment on 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:36.320 the people themselves, that that God was punishing us by 0:20:36.440 --> 0:20:39.960 sending these creatures. So, yeah, that was that was tied 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:43.200 into it. There was a belief that we the community 0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:47.040 are being punished and so you know, we will I mean, 0:20:47.160 --> 0:20:49.720 I don't know that's exactly what you were asking, but 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:54.080 that was that was definitely part of the part of 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:59.040 the belief. But that on the subject of theology and religion, 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:01.160 you do and later the book get into that a bit, 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:05.280 uh talking to individuals about like what is what is 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:09.080 one's religious responsibility towards these animals that we may think 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:11.919 of as vermin. Well, yeah, I spent some time in India, 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:17.280 which has quite a different attitude and relationship attitude toward 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:20.960 animals and relationship with them, partly because a lot a 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:25.120 lot of the deities and Hinduism are animals, where they're 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:28.080 you know, they appear as animals, or the spouse is 0:21:28.119 --> 0:21:30.440 an animal, or they ride around on an animal, and 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:33.320 they themselves like hant him on is you know, the 0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:37.879 monkey head and Gunnesh the elephant. Cows are considered sacred. 0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:43.960 So it's a when when those animals start to cause problems, Um, 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:47.960 people are not as quick to rush in to calling 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:52.840 the authorities to exterminate them or call them. Uh, there's 0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:54.760 a there's a stigma attached to that, you know, a 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:59.000 new Delhi, the tremendous problems of macaques troops and not 0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:02.280 just not just Deli. All over cities in northern India. 0:22:02.960 --> 0:22:06.080 Macaques cause a lot of problems. And uh, one of 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:08.879 the things that's done in nadelis to catch them and 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:12.639 transport them down to this large sanctuary in the southern 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:14.160 part of the city. It used to be a mine 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:16.880 and now it's really wilded and is a place where 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:19.960 the maccaques are let loose. And it's very very hard 0:22:20.040 --> 0:22:23.960 for the authorities to hire monkey catchers. I mean that 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:26.760 is this just you would you would be looked at 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:29.159 a scance if you were somebody who was trapping and 0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:34.200 man handling macaques. Because of the religious significance of these animals. 0:22:34.440 --> 0:22:38.320 The other thing going on while their pests and nuisances 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:41.600 to people that people are also they gather at temples, 0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:45.479 these monkeys because they know people will and offerings. They 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:48.320 will not only inside the temple where you know the 0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:52.240 more conventional um offerings are made, but when they go outside, 0:22:52.280 --> 0:22:54.240 they see the monkey, and they will give them monkey, 0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:57.800 you know, fruit or little packets of soda or whatever 0:22:57.920 --> 0:23:01.560 they'll they'll, So they're they're both encouraging the animal and 0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:04.679 then also being harassed by it. So it's a sticky 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:09.080 problem there. The religious the religious elements make it more 0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:13.200 complicated when when it comes to finding some sort of solution. 0:23:13.600 --> 0:23:15.840 There are several examples in the book where you discuss 0:23:16.560 --> 0:23:20.000 animals that in some way interact or have conflict with, 0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:23.840 or live alongside humans, and how there might be a 0:23:24.000 --> 0:23:28.800 sort of emergent evolutionary pressure on animals that know how 0:23:28.880 --> 0:23:31.800 to exploit humans and just like just to the right 0:23:31.880 --> 0:23:35.640 extent without overstepping and then being being dealt with violently. 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:38.520 Like you talked about this in the chapter with the bears, 0:23:38.560 --> 0:23:40.800 which I thought was really interesting, how there there could 0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:43.440