1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: My welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:16,600 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 1: Joe McCormick. In today's episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, 5 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 1: we have a special interview guest. It's science writer Mary Roach. 6 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: We're gonna be chatting with her about her new book 7 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: fuzz When Nature Breaks the Law, which is out today 8 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: wherever you get your books. This is my first Mary 9 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: Roach book, and I love it. It. I I feel 10 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 1: ashamed now that I had never read one of her 11 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: books before. Um, but she has such an infectious and 12 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: enjoyable prose style that really gets in your head. Um. 13 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: One of the things that I wanted to emphasize in 14 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,239 Speaker 1: the intro here because because I've just been thinking about it. 15 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: In terms of subject matter, this book gets into a 16 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: lot of kind of dark and grizzly sounding stuff. But 17 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: it is but despite that, it is a really funny book. 18 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: It is like one of the most laugh out loud 19 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:08,479 Speaker 1: funny books I've read in a long time. Yeah, it's engaging, 20 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: it's weird, it's fun. Um. I was telling my wife 21 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: about the book and she's read Mary Roach before, and 22 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: my wife was like, well, some of that sounds a 23 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: little dark. I don't know, I want to read that 24 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,320 Speaker 1: right now. But but of course this has always been 25 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: the way with Mary roach books. There. They do get 26 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:26,919 Speaker 1: into dark territory, but they are always fun and and humorous. 27 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: Um if you're not familiar out there. Her previous books 28 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: include two thousand three Stiff, which is about cadaver's two 29 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:39,479 Speaker 1: thousand five Spook, which is about scientific inquiries, especially early 30 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: scientific inquiries into the supernatural, two thousand eights Bunk, which 31 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: is about sexuality, two thousand tens Packing for Mars, which 32 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: is about the science scientific research into UH into into 33 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: the Quest for Space, two thousand thirteens Gulp, which is 34 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: about human digestion uh and then two thousands sixteen book 35 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: was Grunt, which is about military scientific investigations. I've read 36 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: all of these, and I think this is the This 37 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: is the fourth time Mary has actually been on stuff 38 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: to blow your mind, as she previously dropped in to 39 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 1: talk about Packing from Mars, Gulp, and Grunt. She's either 40 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: our most featured guest at this point or she's tied 41 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: for the honors. I can't remember either way. Friend of 42 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 1: the show's status is definitely in place. Mary Roach, thanks 43 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: for joining us today. Could you introduce yourself? Of course, 44 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: I'm Mary Roach. As you said, I have a nonfiction author, 45 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: and my most recent book is called Fuzz Sometimes When 46 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: Nature Breaks the Law. I have been so enjoying this book. 47 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,919 Speaker 1: I love your dry, humorous prose style in it. And 48 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: I thought, before we got any broader questions about about 49 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: the book and what you've learned from writing it, I 50 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: thought it would be good to kick off with an 51 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: example of the kinds of speriences you cover in the book. 52 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: And so I loved the story you cover in the 53 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 1: very first chapter about the wildlife Human Attack Response training 54 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: course you went through in Las Vegas. Could you tell 55 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 1: us a bit about this conference and and what got 56 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: you there and what it was like? Sure? Sure, yeah. 57 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: It's called uh Wildlife Human Attack Response Training UH or WART, 58 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: which by its founders admission, is a terrible acronym. So 59 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: WART is a five day course which I was lucky 60 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: enough to be able to sit in on, and it's 61 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: most almost entirely attended by people who deal with wildlife 62 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: attacks the aftermath of the attack. And it's basically, you know, 63 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: you're setting up a crime scene and you're doing forensics 64 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: as you might in the case of a human on 65 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: human killing, uh, and you're trying to trying to take evidence, 66 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: collect evidence, established linkage between the perpetrator and the victim. Um. 67 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: And if they they caught an animal that they think 68 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: might be the animal and the DNA doesn't match or 69 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: they don't they're not able to establish that language, they'll 70 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: release the animals. So there's these bizarre parallels to the 71 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: human the human criminal justice system. But for me, it 72 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 1: was just a fascinating five days of hanging out and 73 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 1: hearing a lot about predator attacks and the aftermath, which 74 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 1: was both fascinating and often quite grizzly. G R. I. Yes, 75 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: it's not easy. Um. So Yeah, it was utterly fascinating 76 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 1: to me because I've you know, I've never encountered this 77 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 1: world and did not know that these prime scenes were 78 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: processed that way and that this work was done. Yeah. 79 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: So you include some details about like, uh, these sessions 80 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: where you would be given a mannequin that had these 81 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: wounds inflicted on it with saws and knives and things, 82 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: and you'd have to establish what type of animal it 83 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: was from the wounds on the mannequin. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 84 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: They had these soft touch mannequins. They're not like something 85 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: you'd see in a store window. They were. They were 86 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 1: you know, they're fleshy, I'll say fleshy. And they were. 87 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: The people who had created these wounds were people who've 88 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 1: seen they I mean, they were based on actual bodies 89 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: and the wounds on the victims of attacks. Some of 90 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: them bear, some of them cougar or mountain lion. Um 91 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: and uh quite uh quite realistic, I have to say. 92 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: And and so they were, they were. We all had workstations, 93 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: you know, they were about it. There were about I 94 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: think eight or more, maybe a few more workstations each 95 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 1: group had, uh, mock victim. And the idea was, look 96 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: at these wounds and what can you learn? And you 97 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 1: can pretty quickly, uh make a distinction between first of all, 98 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: human versus animal and then um uh mountain lion versus bag. 99 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: They kill in very different ways. They have very different 100 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 1: teeth and claws, and the marks on the body and 101 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: the wounds will tell you, um, quite readily who the 102 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: perpetrator or what species the perpetrator was. Um. And then 103 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: after that is established and you sort of you're moving 104 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: down to more than nitty gritty of looking at saliva, 105 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: you know, matching DNA between the victim and the animal. 106 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: So you might be doing that with saliva on the 107 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: victim's body or blood. You might be looking into the 108 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: gums of the animal to see is their human tissue 109 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: there and does is that? Does that match the victim, 110 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: So you'd be just like you might do on you know, 111 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: C S I or one of those shows that I 112 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:40,359 Speaker 1: never watched, but those forensics shows so uh, super interesting stuff. 113 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: One of the details from the section that really stuck 114 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: with me was in warning to everyone, this is about 115 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,919 Speaker 1: to get gruesome. The idea of since bears tend to 116 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: when they do attack humans, which is rare, but when 117 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 1: they do, they tend to bite repeatedly at the face 118 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 1: that you might expect to say, find human facial features 119 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 1: like lips or something, it's stuck in the bear's teeth 120 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: or the stomach. You would examine the bear's stomach contents 121 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: and they're you know, they're they're not necessarily chewing all 122 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: that thoroughly, and so you might find, you know, an 123 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: entire i or in one case, a part of the 124 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: scalp with a mohawk haircut and which in fact match 125 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: the victim's hairstyle. So yeah, with bears, because bears when 126 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: they attack each other, they use their teeth and go 127 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: for the face. They go for each other's face because 128 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: that's lightly furred and they can inflict more damage. And 129 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: that's the sets. They're kind of Achilles heel, which is 130 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: in there their head, not their foot. Uh So they're 131 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: that's kind of what they do and when that which 132 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: makes for some pretty horrible injuries. Also, you see that 133 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: also um with with cougars because they they're biting at 134 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: the neck. But sometimes you know when um, I use 135 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: the comparison and in rather grizzly, but when you think 136 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: of biting into a very ripe plum, how when you 137 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: bite into it, the skin pulls away. So so what 138 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: you sometimes have is kind of these scalpings as it work. 139 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: Was that you know, if you if you try, if 140 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: you're an animal and you're trying to get your jaw 141 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: around a human head, you're hitting bone right away, and 142 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: then you close your jaws and it pulls the skin away. 143 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: So some of these um mannequins were really a little 144 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: tough to tough to see and I can imagine coming 145 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 1: upon the real thing would be pretty disturbing. But one 146 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: of the interesting things that is this is a takeaway 147 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: from observing all these different kinds of wounds, is that 148 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: almost all of them indicate that we are not really 149 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: what this animal has evolved to use its jaws or 150 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: claws on. And so like you described with the with 151 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:53,439 Speaker 1: the cougars biting the back of the head or bears 152 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: attacking humans, the bites almost reveal the strangeness of this 153 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: encounter between the human and the animal. Write a bear 154 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: bears eat, I mean they're they're mostly eating nuts, berries, fruit, um, 155 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: if sometimes fish, grasses. So they have molars that they 156 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: have a jaw that goes side to side, and they've 157 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: got molars for crushing and grinding um. So there, So 158 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: the bites on a human, it's a it's it's messy, 159 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 1: is the way it was put. It's kind of a 160 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: messy affair. Whereas uh, a mountain lion is does a 161 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: leaps attacks secures, the pride does a killing bite. So 162 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: these puncture wounds, these triangular puncture wounds, it's a less 163 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,679 Speaker 1: messy death, if you will. So, yeah, you can really 164 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: see how the animals equipped to gather its food and uh. 165 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: And with mountain lions, yeah, they do tend to they 166 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: pounce and kill. They are predators and true carnivores, but 167 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: they're not true We're not on the menu they like 168 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: deer or wild pigs or they're not They're not going 169 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: after humans. Very very rarely a whole decade, we'll go 170 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: buy in California where we don't have a single mountain 171 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: lion fatality. It's just a very unusual occurrence. Now, speaking 172 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: of bears, I re really I really enjoyed the how, 173 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: not only with the bear chapter, but you know, multiple 174 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: chapters in the book. You you kind of you turn 175 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 1: our pre existing notions of these animals kind of on 176 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: their head, even if we think that our pre existing 177 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: notions are kind of you know, well informed. Uh, but 178 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: with the with the bear in particular, when you're talking 179 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: about the break ins that are perpetrated by bears and 180 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: in these cases, how it seems like the bear is 181 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: such a contradiction. Can you speak to like some of 182 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: those some of those details about like how how reckless 183 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: they can be, but then so how just almost hauntingly precise. Sure, Yeah, 184 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: I spent some time in um Picken County, Colorado, on 185 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: the outskirts of downtown Aspen, up in the hills. Um, 186 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:01,319 Speaker 1: and this is a ski or as or town. We're 187 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: up in the mountains. We are in bear territory. Uh 188 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: and so uh the bears are in. The bears start 189 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: to realize nuts and berries, these are great, grab apples, 190 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 1: choke cherry, this is great. But these humans, these humans 191 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: seem to have some really good stuff inside their homes. 192 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:23,559 Speaker 1: And a bear that kind of realizes that surprisingly adept 193 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: at popping a window or even turning. They call the 194 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: bear handles their French door handles, which you just pushed 195 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 1: down on and pushed the door and it opens quite easily. 196 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 1: So bears are find it very easy to to get 197 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: into two people's homes and people are sometimes surprised. It 198 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: depends on the bear. But some bears like the break 199 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: in that where I went to the aftermath of this 200 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: break in, and the bear had gone through a downstairs, 201 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: through a deck leading to a bedroom downstairs, and then 202 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: up to the kitchen. Didn't knock anything over. Uh, didn't 203 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: even leave footprint sun bears. Um. The guy who the 204 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: wildlife invested was Colorado Fish and Game and fish and 205 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: wildlife that he was talking about, how they they will 206 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: sometimes reach in like take out a carton of eggs 207 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: and inside, or or take out things that they don't 208 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 1: want to put them aside. One bear allegedly opened hers 209 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: she's kiss open the foil her. She's kiss uh and 210 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: and ate that. So there there, um, yeah, they there. 211 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: While they can create, you know, a god awful mess, 212 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: whether it's on a body or in someone's kitchen, sometimes 213 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: they're surprisingly um precise and laid back. It's it's interesting 214 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 1: how different their person individual personalities are. Was it from uh, 215 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: the person you were speaking with the Colorado Fish and 216 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: Wildlife that you got that fact about, or at least 217 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: the allegation that some of these bears apparently have brand 218 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: preferences when it comes to ice cream, like they really 219 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: like Hogin does, but they don't like the store brand. Yes, 220 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: it was. It was. It was a woman from the 221 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:06,439 Speaker 1: neighboring town is It's Snowmass. I think the it's a 222 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: it's a again a mountain resort ski and mountain biking 223 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 1: resort town, Tina White I believe her name was, And 224 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: she said that the black bears in the area they 225 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: prefer premium brands. They will not touch Western Family ice Cream, 226 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: which I guess is like a low rent brand that 227 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: they have in Colorado, and they're like, no, no, no, 228 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: thank you. I gotta say the parts of that chapter 229 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 1: where you were talking about the bears getting into the trash, 230 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 1: the unsecured trash outside of fancy restaurants, that was really 231 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: making me hungry when you were listing all the foods 232 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 1: they were stabbing their snouts into, so the rotten Barata 233 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: cheese and the and the sustainable sicunas salon, and exactly 234 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:55,599 Speaker 1: if they were like, this is some good, thank you, 235 00:13:55,760 --> 00:14:00,040 Speaker 1: thank Let's see. Let's let's go a little broader for 236 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: a second here and just talk about the book itself, 237 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: which again is fuzz when when nature breaks the law. 238 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: I was just wondering, how how long have you been 239 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: planning this particular book, and is there is there anything 240 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: in particular that you can point to as being like 241 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: the inspiration point that led you down this road. Oh, 242 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 1: I wish I had a great origin story because people 243 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: people often ask about that, and um I came to 244 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: it this one and it's a really kind of circuitous 245 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: roundabout not necessarily all that interesting. Half I had originally 246 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: gotten interested in wildlife crime scene forensics, but not when 247 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: the animals are the perpetrators, but when the animals are 248 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: the victims. So I was up at this forensics lab 249 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: that the Fish and Wildlife Department has, talking to this 250 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: woman who was an expert in how to tell counterfeit 251 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: versus genuine dried tiger penis, because of course it's illegal 252 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: to traffic and animal endangered animal parts. And uh, as 253 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: it turns out, almost all as was being passed off 254 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: as tiger penis is deer or horse or cow, partly 255 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: because those are easier to come by, and they're bigger 256 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: and more impressive. And if you're trying to quote unquote 257 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: cure erectile discilation or make yourself more virile, a little 258 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: tiger penis doesn't. It doesn't have the right optics. Anyway, 259 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: that's a long winded way of saying. I was up 260 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: at this lab, the Vision Wildlife National Wildlife Forensics Laboratory, 261 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: and I thought, well, this this could be an interesting area. 262 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: But as it turns out, I was not going to 263 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: be able to follow any open investigations. I wasn't to 264 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: be able to tag along with investigators and do the 265 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: kind of thing I really have to do for my 266 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: books to make it interesting for myself hopefully for the reader. 267 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: So that was a dead end, and I kind of 268 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: various other things happened. But I eventually thought, well, what 269 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: if I turned it around, and what if the animals 270 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: were the perpetrators and the people are the victims, and 271 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: and you know what, what would what's to be done there? 272 00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: And I learned that there's in fact a whole science 273 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: this devoted to this, called human wildlife conflict and the 274 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: science of human wildlife conflict, and there's conventions and scientists 275 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: and researchers. So I thought that could be an interesting 276 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: world to step into. So it was a circuitous path, 277 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: it wasn't It wasn't. I have not been attacked, or 278 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: not until the book, by any animal. That's right, you were. 279 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: You were robbed by a monkey. I was mugged by 280 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: cac Yes, I was. So when I when I picked 281 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: up the book and was getting into it, you know, 282 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: I expected a lot of it, of course, to be 283 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: happening in a contemporary setting and dealing with our modern world, 284 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: thinking like, okay, this is where the legal system has 285 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: led and this is where you know, the growth of 286 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: human populations and expansion has led. So I was I 287 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: was really surprised and interested when you mentioned a book 288 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: from nineteen o six, The Criminal Prosecution and Punishment of Animals. 289 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: But I believe E. P. Evans, Can you talk a 290 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: little bit about this? Sure, that's something I came upon 291 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: very early on and also pushed me towards this topic. 292 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: A bizarre book. This is a book detailing the things 293 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: that human societies used to do to deal with animals 294 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: and insects that were committing crimes against them. Crimes in 295 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 1: the sense of following our laws, you know, stealing or 296 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: or committing manslaughter. And what used to happen is that 297 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 1: they were uh, criminally prosecuted. The example I given the 298 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 1: book is this case. It's from sixteen fifty nine in 299 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: Northern Italy, a province in northern Italy, and um caterpillars 300 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: were eating a lot of the crops, lettuces, whatever they were. 301 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: And these caterpillars will do they're hungry, They've got, you know, 302 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 1: bulk up for their little transition. And so the community 303 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: that the um whoever the magistrate or the head person 304 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: was posted summons legal summons on the trees in the area. 305 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: Requesting that the caterpillars appear in court on a set date, 306 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: at which point the summons said they would be assigned 307 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: legal representation and a trial would ensue. And of course 308 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: the caterpillars did not appear in court, but by that 309 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: time had pupated, weren't causing any problems anymore. But but 310 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: that's this book. It's like four hundred pages of well 311 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 1: documented situations and cases. There were, you know, livestock, some 312 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,239 Speaker 1: of it pigs, pigs killing small children. Not don't care 313 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: about that happening much today, but apparently used to happen 314 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: with some frequency. The pigs being tried, executed, sometimes imprisoned. 315 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 1: And I thought this, I almost thought this was a 316 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: hoax because it was so so bizarre. But the bat 317 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 1: be appendix as a number of these documents and um 318 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: in some detail in Latin a lot of the times, 319 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: sometimes French. Uh, And so it was. It was real, 320 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: and it was not that there were just simple minded people. 321 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: It was the way, the way the author explained it. 322 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 1: It was a way to um display the breadth of 323 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: your powers as as a legal entity or as a leader, 324 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: you know, even nature must follow my rules, and you 325 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: will be punished so it's kind of a display, kind 326 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 1: of ludicrous, but a display of dominion and power and 327 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: I control all so. But but the the details were 328 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: quite quite amazing. I mean people ritz w r I 329 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: t rits of ejectment that were stucked into the burrows 330 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: of rats like you must leave the must they get 331 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: the premises under penalty of law. Honestly, legal system not 332 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 1: the best approach of the animals. They don't read, they 333 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: don't care. They just want a place to have a 334 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: nest or get something to eat, and we offer that 335 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: and they take advantage of it. These are crimes of 336 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: opportunity for the most part. Anyway that that book is 337 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: a fascinating it thought particularly easy to get through, but 338 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: a fascinating read. Nineteen o six when the book was published. 339 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: Do you think these kinds of legal actions were at 340 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: all um based on a certain theological understanding of law. 341 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,880 Speaker 1: I don't recall any mention of this in the book, 342 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: but you know, was there an idea that maybe if 343 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:17,959 Speaker 1: you issued a certain kind of legitimate uh sanctioned by 344 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: the court, that somehow God would enforce it or something. Yeah, yes, 345 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 1: there there definitely was a religious element. There was this 346 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 1: sense that this belief that these plagues and these um 347 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: actions of these animals were being or a punishment on 348 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: the people themselves, that that God was punishing us by 349 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: sending these creatures. So, yeah, that was that was tied 350 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 1: into it. There was a belief that we the community 351 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: are being punished and so you know, we will I mean, 352 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: I don't know that's exactly what you were asking, but 353 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: that was that was definitely part of the part of 354 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: the belief. But that on the subject of theology and religion, 355 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 1: you do and later the book get into that a bit, 356 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: uh talking to individuals about like what is what is 357 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: one's religious responsibility towards these animals that we may think 358 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 1: of as vermin. Well, yeah, I spent some time in India, 359 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: which has quite a different attitude and relationship attitude toward 360 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: animals and relationship with them, partly because a lot a 361 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:25,120 Speaker 1: lot of the deities and Hinduism are animals, where they're 362 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: you know, they appear as animals, or the spouse is 363 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: an animal, or they ride around on an animal, and 364 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: they themselves like hant him on is you know, the 365 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 1: monkey head and Gunnesh the elephant. Cows are considered sacred. 366 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 1: So it's a when when those animals start to cause problems, Um, 367 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: people are not as quick to rush in to calling 368 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: the authorities to exterminate them or call them. Uh, there's 369 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: a there's a stigma attached to that, you know, a 370 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: new Delhi, the tremendous problems of macaques troops and not 371 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: just not just Deli. All over cities in northern India. 372 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: Macaques cause a lot of problems. And uh, one of 373 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 1: the things that's done in nadelis to catch them and 374 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 1: transport them down to this large sanctuary in the southern 375 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 1: part of the city. It used to be a mine 376 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 1: and now it's really wilded and is a place where 377 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: the maccaques are let loose. And it's very very hard 378 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: for the authorities to hire monkey catchers. I mean that 379 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: is this just you would you would be looked at 380 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,159 Speaker 1: a scance if you were somebody who was trapping and 381 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: man handling macaques. Because of the religious significance of these animals. 382 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: The other thing going on while their pests and nuisances 383 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: to people that people are also they gather at temples, 384 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,479 Speaker 1: these monkeys because they know people will and offerings. They 385 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: will not only inside the temple where you know the 386 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: more conventional um offerings are made, but when they go outside, 387 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: they see the monkey, and they will give them monkey, 388 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: you know, fruit or little packets of soda or whatever 389 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: they'll they'll, So they're they're both encouraging the animal and 390 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 1: then also being harassed by it. So it's a sticky 391 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: problem there. The religious the religious elements make it more 392 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: complicated when when it comes to finding some sort of solution. 393 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: There are several examples in the book where you discuss 394 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: animals that in some way interact or have conflict with, 395 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: or live alongside humans, and how there might be a 396 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: sort of emergent evolutionary pressure on animals that know how 397 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: to exploit humans and just like just to the right 398 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 1: extent without overstepping and then being being dealt with violently. 399 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: Like you talked about this in the chapter with the bears, 400 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 1: which I thought was really interesting, how there there could 401 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 1: be a kind of evolutionary advantage for what are called 402 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: the fat Albert bears and bears that are you know, 403 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: get in and get a lot of calories out of 404 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: your fridge, but are less likely to have a scary 405 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 1: conflict with a person or less likely to damage the house. Right, Yeah, 406 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: the fat fat Albert was a bear that was quite 407 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: good at breaking into people's cabins and homes. This is 408 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: again Colorado, but people would marvel afterwards, like came in here, 409 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: didn't damage anything, and people were kind of impressed, you know, okay, 410 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: rated the fridge, took some stuff, didn't break anything. So 411 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 1: so not as likely to be angry or to perceive 412 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: this creature as a threat and to call uh, Colorado 413 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: Parks and Wildlife and and you know, request something be 414 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 1: done about the bear. So so then, you know, the 415 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: more fat Alberts, the more these bears persist and survived 416 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: to breeding age, the more you're gonna sort of see 417 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,719 Speaker 1: more hopefully more fat Alberts. Because the bears that are 418 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: very aggressive, that are aggressive toward people or their pets, 419 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 1: or that break in and cause a lot of damage. 420 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 1: They to use the phrasing of the person I was 421 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 1: talking to, they're gonna get whacked fast, like some people 422 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: are going to be feel threatened. They're going to complain, 423 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: They're going to call the agency. Agency is going to 424 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,959 Speaker 1: come out seat a big colvert trap and that animal 425 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 1: will be destroyed and so um, possibly, yes, possibly, you know, 426 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 1: the fat Alberts will be seeing more and more of 427 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: them and fewer and fewer of the aggressive ones, and 428 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 1: that could be a good thing over time. Now, in 429 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: your your section, in your in Fuzz dealing with animals 430 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: on the highways, you discuss self driving car solutions to 431 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: animal strikes. Uh, and I found this very fascinating as well. 432 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,919 Speaker 1: How does it seem that self driving cars are likely 433 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: to react to animals on the road in the future. Well, 434 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:37,479 Speaker 1: right now, there's something called a large animal detection system. 435 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: So an animal that kind a long legged, tall animal. Uh, 436 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: anything that comes into the path, the beam of the 437 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: detector that fits that visual profile will cause the car 438 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: to stop. That I mean that the brakes will be applied. H. 439 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,639 Speaker 1: And the reason is a large animal detection system. What 440 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: they're hoping to prevent is illusions with a moose and 441 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 1: elk or an elk, because those animals are tall enough 442 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: that if the car strikes them, it strikes them in 443 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 1: the legs, and the entire torso and head and antler's 444 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: cart whales back over the car. And these animals are 445 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: tall enough that that that they come through the windfield 446 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:22,439 Speaker 1: and land on the driver and or the passenger. And um, 447 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 1: the result is often a broken neck, death or or 448 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: or paralysis. So, um, it's quite different than just hitting 449 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: a deer or the deers. I mean, there's gonna be 450 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: a lot of damage to the car and to the deer, 451 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: but often the person's the person survives without serious injury, unless, 452 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,640 Speaker 1: of course they swerved and hit a tree and went 453 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 1: off the road. Um. So a self driving car, uh, 454 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 1: the ones that I heard about I called, UM, I 455 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 1: think I've talked to someone at Volvo. Volvo and sad 456 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: because there's they're sold a lot in northern regions. Have 457 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: concerns about moose hitting moose because there's a lot of 458 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:05,159 Speaker 1: fatalit easy, but when it I got curious about small animals, 459 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 1: like how does the car decide when it should just 460 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 1: plow forward because it's safer to hit a pet than 461 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: it is to swerve or how you know? How uh 462 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: if you stop short for a small animal, then the 463 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,199 Speaker 1: car behind now smashes into you. How do you how 464 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: does a car make those decisions? You know? At what 465 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: point is it's safer for the human for the driver 466 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,199 Speaker 1: to just go ahead and hit the raccoon? Um instead 467 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: of serving to save the animal's life. How? And I 468 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: tried to get an interview with someone at weimo UH 469 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 1: and a couple of other places, and they don't They 470 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,159 Speaker 1: didn't want to talk about that. They don't want to 471 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 1: They didn't want to engage on the topic. Which leaves 472 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 1: me to think they haven't quite worked out worked out 473 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: what to do, because it's it's it's situation by situation, um. 474 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: The worst thing to do in the case of a 475 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: small animal on the road with you know, if there's 476 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: trees and things on the side of the road, you know, 477 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 1: to swerve sharply um and and put yourself at risk 478 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: of going off the road and hitting a tree or 479 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: a rock or a barrier. Um. That that's not what 480 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: you want to do. But but it's also to say, well, 481 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 1: our cars will just go ahead and plow into your 482 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 1: dog or cat or recoon to save your life. We 483 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: will just be just plowing right on through without even 484 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 1: breaking or even blinking an eye. So that you know 485 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 1: that the optics of that are kind of awful too. 486 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 1: So that's a question that I have that I that 487 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 1: as far as I know, hasn't really been answered. I 488 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: think that the priorities right now and they've got so 489 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: many other things to figure out before they get down 490 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: to what do we do about someone's beagle? Yeah, I 491 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: mean it reminds me of stuff I've read recently just 492 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 1: related in general to self driving cars. They're just about 493 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: all the things we do sometimes just nonsensical risks that 494 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: we take. Be it, um, you know, a risky left 495 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: hand turn, or the fact that yet that, like I'm 496 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 1: driving to pick my kid up school, I might swerve 497 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: around the chipmunk in the road, and it was in 498 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: retrospect it was dangerous, but also in retrospect, I'm not 499 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: sure I would have done anything else, you know. And 500 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: how do you translate or improve upon that that kind 501 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: of decision making in the machine? Right? And how do 502 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: you tell a small animal from a kid on a 503 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: small bicycle? And how do you I mean, those those 504 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: fine grain distinctions, how do you trust the car to 505 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: make those? It's it's really it is really tricky on um. Yeah, 506 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: and even you know, I have a a new issue 507 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: of a new edition of Stiff coming out and with 508 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: an epilogue where I went back and I talked to 509 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: me like what's new in these topics, And one of 510 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: the things that came up was passenger safety in a 511 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: self driving car if you you don't need to be 512 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: at the steering wheel in a set position. If you 513 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: can now sit sideways or or you know not, you're 514 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: not confined as you were as a driver. Well, now 515 00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: in an impact, how do you keep that person safe? 516 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: Where do you put the air bags off? Somebody? People 517 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: can kind of sit across from each other, and you know, 518 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: you freed people up in the interior of the car. 519 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: How do you keep them, how do you keep them safe? 520 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: Where does the airbag go? How do you you know, 521 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: how do you configure the seatbelt? So all of that 522 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: has to be a rethought and probably you know, the 523 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: small animal portion of it will be pretty far down 524 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: the list. Is there Is there a date for the 525 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: new edition of Stiff? This? Yeah, this this week? I 526 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: think that. I think August thirty one, the new edition 527 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: with a snazzy new cover comes out. Yeah. This is 528 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: of course your your your first big book that that 529 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: kicked it a off. My first book, kind of Stiff, 530 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: came out in three I think it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 531 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: I've read that. I've read I read all of your 532 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: books that have come out. They're always always thank you, jeez, 533 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: I'd love to hear that. Thank so One thing I 534 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: found interesting about UM the sections of the book involving 535 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: humans and animals that come into violent conflict UM, is that, well, 536 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: so you have a chapter about leopards in India that 537 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: intentionally stalk humans as prey repeatedly they become habituated to this, 538 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: and you got me wondering, what are some of the 539 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: broad truths about the difference between animals that sort of 540 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: stumble into hapless encounters with humans that might turn violent, 541 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: versus animals that deliberately stalk humans as prey. Yeah, the 542 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:38,479 Speaker 1: broad truth is that it's very uncommon for an animal 543 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: that can easily attack and kill a human to do that. 544 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 1: We are not really on the typically, we are not 545 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: on the menu. Something has to to change. And in 546 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: the Middle Himalaya where I was in India, a couple 547 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: of things happened. One is the theory that Jim Corbett, 548 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 1: who has brought into hunt down some of these kind 549 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: of famous man eaters as he called them. His theory 550 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 1: was that during the pandemic of nineteen sevent there were 551 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: so many people dying that the traditional ritual of you know, 552 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: taking the body to the river and building a pyre, 553 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: and you know that wasn't happening, and they would, Um 554 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: it came up with a more expedient ritual, which is 555 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: to put a hot coal in the mouth and send 556 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: the body off sort of down the hill towards the river, 557 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: not to actually make the track and do the whole ritual. 558 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 1: And so there were a lot of bodies that were 559 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: now available, and leopard will scavenge. And the his belief 560 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: was that they developed a taste for human meat that way, 561 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: and that they then went on to incorporate human meat 562 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: into their diet going forward. Um, that's a that's a 563 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: theory that may well be true. Um. The theory of 564 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: the researcher that I traveled with was it had to 565 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: do with what's going on in that part of the world, 566 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 1: which is a lot of farming communities. Um, the men 567 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: have given up farming and gone to look for work 568 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: in the cities, and so there's a lot of rewilding land. 569 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 1: It's it's occupied by people. There are a lot of 570 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: you know, women and children left behind there. But there's 571 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: cover now for and there's a lot of brush around 572 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: homes and communities and which leopards need to hunt. They 573 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 1: will sneak up and then you know, cover the last 574 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: distance in a burst of speed and a pounds, so 575 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: they tend to need to have cover. Also, livestock there 576 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: isn't being as well tended, so it's kind of be 577 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: it's false prey to the leopards and the people, the 578 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: people who are watching the livestock. Sometimes there kids and 579 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: uht of the individuals killed by leopards in that region 580 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: in this once this researcher study, we're kids underten. Uh 581 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: So there's opportunities that weren't there for for animals that 582 00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: hunt and and and sadly a human or a child 583 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: there or the or people's pets, they're they're easier to 584 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: catch than a deer or a wild pig. So part 585 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: of it maybe leopards just realizing this is an easy dinner. 586 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: It seems like a lot of these uh these stories 587 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:20,800 Speaker 1: in some way involve um rapid changes or modification to 588 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: the landscape done by humans. Yeah, yeah, it does. Yeah 589 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: that the situation there with elephants again surprising to me anyway. 590 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,879 Speaker 1: Number of deaths five deaths a year caused by human 591 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: deaths caused by elephants. Um. And what's happening there is 592 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 1: there's this elephant corridor as it's called. The elephants tend 593 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: to move along this path looking for food. Um. It's 594 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,879 Speaker 1: across northern India to the border with Nepal, and these 595 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: regions are seeing an influx of refugees and also Terry 596 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: has built several establishments. There's roads coming through and the 597 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 1: elephants are getting this is the term pocketed, stuck in 598 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 1: little pockets, and elephants eat a lot they travel and 599 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 1: sizeable herds and they are turning to the farmer's crops 600 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 1: for food because they don't have enough food and they're stuck. 601 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 1: They can't keep moving on the way they used to. 602 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 1: And so then that's when you have conflict because you 603 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: have these um villagers who they're they're depending on this 604 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 1: food to survive. You know, it's it's um subsistence farming. 605 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: And so you know, a troop of elephants that comes through, 606 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: even if they don't eat what you're growing, they're gonna 607 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 1: trample you know, you get the seven or eight elephants 608 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: are going to cause a tremendous amount of damage. So 609 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,879 Speaker 1: people see the elephants coming onto their land and they'll 610 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: run out and they'll try you know, they're they're angry 611 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 1: and they're upset, and they tend to they tend to 612 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 1: be deaths from getting trampled or knocked over or I 613 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,240 Speaker 1: mean an elephant even if they're that's not the elephant's intent. 614 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: It's a very big animal and it's just knocks you 615 00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 1: with it's trunk. It can kill you. And um, so 616 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 1: so yes, it's it's humans moving into the territory and 617 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,799 Speaker 1: and changing the landscape in ways that steiny's their their 618 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 1: natural behaviors and there there their way of surviving and 619 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: getting food. You see that also, you know highways, interstate 620 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,879 Speaker 1: highways in this country, sometimes they're put in without taking 621 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 1: a look at, well what what animals migrate seasonally to 622 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,959 Speaker 1: get food, go to a different elevation to get food 623 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: or to breed, and are we cutting them off? You know? 624 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,359 Speaker 1: That's so that's um, that's a problem. And you can 625 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: build an overpast, but that's an expensive thing to do 626 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: and you know, much better to look at that beforehand, 627 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,360 Speaker 1: saying you know, what is the situation here in this 628 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 1: this swath of land, what kind of wildlife do we 629 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,320 Speaker 1: have and how do they move each year seasonally? Is 630 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: there is this a bad idea? Correct me? If I'm wrong, 631 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 1: but I think another example of that kind of thing 632 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: about um modification of the landscape and and the problems 633 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:59,760 Speaker 1: that causes is like poor choices about the relationship between 634 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 1: different types of plants or fruit bearing plants, especially and 635 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: settled areas. Like I think you give the example of 636 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 1: was it an aspen or somewhere else in Colorado that 637 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,800 Speaker 1: the city was planting crab apple trees within the city 638 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: even while they're trying to solve their bear problem. But 639 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 1: then the other thing that stuck with me was I 640 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: think you were talking about um cabins being like sited. 641 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 1: Somebody buy a plot of land and build a cabin 642 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: right in the middle of a bunch of natural berry trees, 643 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: so that would be the place where like the bears 644 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,919 Speaker 1: would already be habituated to coming. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 645 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,759 Speaker 1: The crab apples and downtown aspen um I mean crab 646 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 1: apple if you I mean, if you've seen a crab 647 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: apple tree, it's they're tiny crab apples, but their own set, 648 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,280 Speaker 1: their clusters of them call like grapes, and the bears 649 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 1: just sort of like opens its mouth, you know, and 650 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,480 Speaker 1: like pulls its mouth down the branch and gets these 651 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: big mouthfuls. I mean, the crab apple trees just heaven't 652 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:53,759 Speaker 1: you know, if you're an animal looking to get a 653 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 1: concentrated food source and lots of calories to put on 654 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 1: weight before you hibernate crab apple tree. Yeah. So the 655 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 1: fact that those are planted in downtown, um, they're pretty 656 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 1: when they blew. Yeah, that's true. They are lovely in 657 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: the spring, but creating creating some issues there and and 658 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: there was even efforts to get them the city to 659 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 1: take them out and they resisted that, which this seems 660 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,920 Speaker 1: a little it was a little ill advised. But yeah, yeah, 661 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,320 Speaker 1: I mean here in the in the Bay area, a 662 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 1: lot up in the hills in Berkeley and Oakland, a 663 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 1: lot of deer. So it really behooves you when you 664 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 1: do your landscaping to plant plants that deer are not 665 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 1: interested in. That is something any good landscape or here 666 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 1: will do, is suggest plants that deer I don't like, 667 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: otherwise you won't have much landscaping very soon. And of 668 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,920 Speaker 1: course that this all leads to some people might might 669 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:51,840 Speaker 1: jump to the conclusion, well don't don't we need to 670 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 1: kill more of these animals, And that's that's something you 671 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 1: discuss quite a bit like this idea that if sometimes 672 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: these just elaborate efforts to remove the animals that then 673 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: just backfire for for reasons that you get into in 674 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 1: the book. Um And at one point you you refer 675 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,440 Speaker 1: to quote the inside out history of conservation in America, 676 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,319 Speaker 1: which which I think I love the way you put 677 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,720 Speaker 1: that there, because yeah, dealing with how conservation in America 678 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 1: is often tied up in these also these eradication movements 679 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: or in the hunting movement. Can you speak to some 680 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 1: of that that complexity there? Well, sure, concert conservation, wilderness 681 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:34,240 Speaker 1: conservation came out of a desire to set aside these large, 682 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: pristine tracts of wilderness so that hunters would have a 683 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:42,479 Speaker 1: place to haunt. Essentially, they were they were hunted fish 684 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: and they're still. I mean, to this day we have 685 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 1: a lot of government land that is managed by wildlife agencies, 686 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 1: and wildlife agencies are funded still by hunting licenses and 687 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,879 Speaker 1: taxes on equipment. So there's a there is this link. 688 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 1: I mean, on the one hand, it is fabulous that 689 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 1: these these were set aside, that they didn't become agricultural land. 690 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: I live in in California, and if you go out 691 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,880 Speaker 1: to the Central Valley. Um, there are these little pockets 692 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 1: of California as it used to be, these wetlands with 693 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 1: these tremendous diversity of bird life that you know, bird 694 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 1: bird stopping over and during migration. You know, you have 695 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:26,440 Speaker 1: you know, ducks, gadwalls, geese, just dozens of species. It's 696 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:30,760 Speaker 1: a birders paradise. But there's also a little hunting cabins 697 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,439 Speaker 1: for duck hunters who come and the land was set 698 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 1: aside by and for hunting, but it's also something you know, 699 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:42,239 Speaker 1: for hikers and and birders, and it's a weird it is. 700 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 1: You know, I, as a birdwatcher used to go out there. 701 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,400 Speaker 1: I never knew about the little hunters cabins. It's kind 702 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 1: of like this sort of secret reality of that that 703 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 1: area and those wetlands. But it really struck me, you know, 704 00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: driving home, going from this really beautiful kind of verdant 705 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: swath of California being that behind and going out into 706 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,320 Speaker 1: the more typical Central Valley California, which is just a 707 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 1: big flat expanse of big agriculture, you know, of crops, 708 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,960 Speaker 1: and so you know, I felt very grateful towards the 709 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 1: people who had set this land aside and you know, 710 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 1: there is this sort of instance of hunters and birders 711 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 1: now uh and uh, but it is it is strange 712 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,719 Speaker 1: to think about the fact that some of our um 713 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,600 Speaker 1: park lands and wilderness areas were originally set aside for 714 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,719 Speaker 1: people who love to hunt. But of course there's still 715 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 1: the funding issue here, right, And that's something you get 716 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,200 Speaker 1: into in the in the book that you have these 717 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,920 Speaker 1: conservation efforts that are still still funded by hunting, funded uh, 718 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: by fishing, etcetera. And I guess you know, in a 719 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,239 Speaker 1: perfect world that would all balance out, But there are 720 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,279 Speaker 1: cases it seems like where it raises the question is 721 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 1: this the right approach? Should there not be you know, 722 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:58,600 Speaker 1: more federal funding for conservation? Yeah? I think that there 723 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,680 Speaker 1: tends to be mistrust. You know, if the money is 724 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: coming from hunting and fishing, um, isn't there temptation on 725 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,759 Speaker 1: the agency's part to put the desires of those of 726 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,520 Speaker 1: their constituents first, you know, can we trust them to 727 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 1: be unbiased and neutral saviors of the land? Um? So? 728 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: And there is there is there has been talk of 729 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:27,400 Speaker 1: of of separating, separating, making the funding for some of 730 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: these conservation efforts federal funding, making it independent of hunting 731 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,680 Speaker 1: and fishing, you know, creating some sort of body or 732 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,239 Speaker 1: pool of money that would would be earmarked for conservation 733 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 1: and and and just sort of creating some distance between 734 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,719 Speaker 1: the two. So so yeah, that is a concern, and 735 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 1: and I think it would be great too for that 736 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:56,840 Speaker 1: to happen. Thank you, thank you, thank so. Here's a 737 00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 1: question that might be a little odd, but I wonder 738 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:01,719 Speaker 1: if you have thoughts about it. How do you think 739 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 1: about motive the concept of motive differently in a criminal 740 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:10,360 Speaker 1: justice context when the perpetrator of a crime is not human, 741 00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:14,000 Speaker 1: because a big part of human criminal justice is about 742 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:18,560 Speaker 1: understanding and establishing motive, treating crimes differently based on what 743 00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:22,759 Speaker 1: the motive was or what the perpetrator's understanding was. Uh. 744 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,600 Speaker 1: The thing about the internal brain states that motivate the 745 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,959 Speaker 1: attacks of non human animals, it seems like you could 746 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: think about them either as like less complex than their 747 00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,919 Speaker 1: human equivalence, and thus may be easier to understand. Often 748 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,000 Speaker 1: an animal is just feeling threatened in some way, or 749 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,680 Speaker 1: might be hungry, or you could think about them is 750 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,399 Speaker 1: maybe more obscure because animals are more alien to our 751 00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:48,480 Speaker 1: experience and they can't explain their motives in language. Yeah, 752 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:53,399 Speaker 1: the question of motive. It's interesting in India that's factored in. UH, 753 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:58,239 Speaker 1: the cases are treated differently. UM if it's a if 754 00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 1: it's um a predatory attack versus a defensive attack. M 755 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 1: So that's if there's if there's a series, there's kind 756 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:08,759 Speaker 1: of a you know, three strikes rule. You know, if 757 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,640 Speaker 1: this if the animal is coming in and praying on 758 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:17,919 Speaker 1: intentionally praying on livestock or people, you know, that's that's 759 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 1: different from a defensive attack. There with leopards, there are, 760 00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:23,879 Speaker 1: as we've talked about before, there are predatory attacks where 761 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,560 Speaker 1: the animal is specifically and intentionally going after a human. 762 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,080 Speaker 1: But there are tremendous numbers of if you go further 763 00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:34,080 Speaker 1: south into the tea growing regions, which I also spent 764 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:39,239 Speaker 1: some time in the in the tea on the tea plantations, 765 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:44,239 Speaker 1: lepers sometimes sleep under the tea plants because it's shadier 766 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,879 Speaker 1: and it's cooler, and the tea workers, the pluckers, people 767 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,680 Speaker 1: plucking the leaves, will sometimes surprise an animal. The animal 768 00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,680 Speaker 1: will like leap up. Sometimes there's an injury, rarely a fatality, 769 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:58,279 Speaker 1: but that's a that's a that's that's a defensive just 770 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,600 Speaker 1: an altercation that happened as the person surprised the animal 771 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 1: and it felt threatened. So those are considered differently than 772 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,839 Speaker 1: a predatory attack. So there is that distinction made. Um. 773 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,960 Speaker 1: You know, here in the US, when an animal harms 774 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:18,600 Speaker 1: a person, it's it's it's considered a public health threat, 775 00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:22,319 Speaker 1: and it's it's typically that's that it has crust the line. 776 00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:26,520 Speaker 1: Regardless of whether the bear was surprised and was defending itself, 777 00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:30,960 Speaker 1: we tend to not make that same distinction. If it 778 00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:33,880 Speaker 1: harms or if it kills a person, it will be destroyed. 779 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:35,920 Speaker 1: Even if it was the person had a dog, The 780 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,880 Speaker 1: dog ran at the bear, the bear got upset, the 781 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,320 Speaker 1: person sort of tried to intervene, the bear turned and 782 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,680 Speaker 1: attacked the person. You know that there's no trial where 783 00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:49,000 Speaker 1: we can we can set forth the reality of the 784 00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,520 Speaker 1: situation and why the bear might have done it, and 785 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 1: what the what the situation created and in a sense 786 00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:00,279 Speaker 1: kind of come out a motive or lack of motive. Yeah, yeah, things. 787 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,440 Speaker 1: So in the American context, Um, the way we react 788 00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:08,520 Speaker 1: to conflict with animals is maybe less understanding of whether 789 00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:10,480 Speaker 1: or not they might be justified, and it is more 790 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,040 Speaker 1: just kind of a pure utilitarian you know, if if 791 00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,440 Speaker 1: an animal has harmed a human or or or a 792 00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:19,080 Speaker 1: pet or something, it's just thereafter considered probably dangerous and 793 00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,960 Speaker 1: thus usually is dealt with violently. Well, yeah, it's a 794 00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:26,000 Speaker 1: it's a public safety issue. And when the public safety 795 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,479 Speaker 1: is threatened that you know that that's gonna the people 796 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:30,560 Speaker 1: are gonna be the priority, not the animal. I mean, 797 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,560 Speaker 1: I did talk to this a bever, a bever researcher 798 00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,480 Speaker 1: who had spent some time I believe it was in 799 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:41,279 Speaker 1: Nepal where they have Oh god, now I'm forgetting which 800 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,400 Speaker 1: species it is. I think there bears. There bears that 801 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:46,880 Speaker 1: come in and they raid the property and they they 802 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:51,560 Speaker 1: sometimes get into altercations where someone is injured. And he said, 803 00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,839 Speaker 1: to the person in the community who responds to when 804 00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,239 Speaker 1: these attacks happened, he said, if you saw a bear 805 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:01,040 Speaker 1: on a person, would you shoot the bear? And the 806 00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,200 Speaker 1: guy said, it's not up to me to decide which 807 00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:07,759 Speaker 1: life is more important. Was it's a different you know, 808 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,680 Speaker 1: it's a it's a it's a very different mindset of 809 00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:15,520 Speaker 1: you know, the value and the rights of animals versus humans. 810 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,600 Speaker 1: And you know, I'm not I mean, it doesn't surprise 811 00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:20,839 Speaker 1: me that we in the United States have the rules 812 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:23,680 Speaker 1: that we do. I mean, it's public safety, you know, 813 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:28,680 Speaker 1: the beats. If you if your family is being you know, 814 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,759 Speaker 1: is in harm's way, then that there's going to be 815 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:35,360 Speaker 1: agencies that will come in and try to mitigate that threat. 816 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,640 Speaker 1: That's what we do. So again, the book is is 817 00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,799 Speaker 1: Fuzz When Nature Breaks the Law by by Mary Roach 818 00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,359 Speaker 1: And I want to stress that we we didn't ask 819 00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:48,520 Speaker 1: about anywhere close to all of the animals or scenarios 820 00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:51,440 Speaker 1: or topics that you discuss in the book. It's just 821 00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:55,200 Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's it's just so would like each chapter, Uh, 822 00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,560 Speaker 1: you know, impressed me. There's so much discussed in the book. 823 00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:03,560 Speaker 1: It's an unsecured garbage can, overflowing trees. Oh, I love that. 824 00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,799 Speaker 1: Can I use that as a blurb on the paperback? Yes, 825 00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:12,960 Speaker 1: But but I thought, just just for anyone out there, 826 00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,640 Speaker 1: like what if you were to summarize, like, what is 827 00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:18,000 Speaker 1: the big take come you want people to have from 828 00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,719 Speaker 1: reading Fuzz? Uh you know what what would that be? Well, 829 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:23,960 Speaker 1: first of all, I know, I want I want people 830 00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:25,640 Speaker 1: to know it's a fun read. It's not. I mean 831 00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:28,239 Speaker 1: sometimes talking about these things it can seem like a 832 00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:32,319 Speaker 1: bit of a downer. It's it's animals there sometimes ending 833 00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,640 Speaker 1: up being destroyed. But now I try, I try to 834 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:39,000 Speaker 1: keep things entertaining and light, and there's lots of room 835 00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:42,000 Speaker 1: for that in this book. Um. But as a as 836 00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:45,120 Speaker 1: a takeaway, um, you know, I just hope that people 837 00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:48,840 Speaker 1: because people have a tendency to just especially since we 838 00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,680 Speaker 1: use the words pest and nuisance, and I do use 839 00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:54,200 Speaker 1: the word nuisance in the book as well, we have 840 00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:58,839 Speaker 1: this tendency to immediately when we've got an animal coming 841 00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:01,560 Speaker 1: onto our property doing something we don't want it to do. 842 00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:03,680 Speaker 1: We want to just pick up the phone and call 843 00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:05,680 Speaker 1: someone and make it go away. And there's the way, 844 00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:10,399 Speaker 1: there's there's things that prevent any further damage. There's there's 845 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:12,600 Speaker 1: you know, you can exclude the animal, you can call 846 00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,080 Speaker 1: someone who actually has the welfare of the animal in mind. 847 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,400 Speaker 1: And the Humane Society of the United States is a 848 00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,239 Speaker 1: great web page, species by species, here's some things to 849 00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,719 Speaker 1: do to solve resolve the problem without harming or killing 850 00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:27,560 Speaker 1: the animals. So I just I just not not to 851 00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:29,880 Speaker 1: be all on a soapbox running which just to just 852 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:36,240 Speaker 1: to try to calm down and think about think about 853 00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:39,840 Speaker 1: what you might do before you call the wildlife control 854 00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:41,920 Speaker 1: operator to set a trap and let it go in 855 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,000 Speaker 1: a park and which is not supposed to do, etcetera. 856 00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:47,759 Speaker 1: Or set a trap and um or put out a 857 00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:52,320 Speaker 1: glue trap. I can't believe they even sell those anymore. 858 00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:55,360 Speaker 1: So that's not a very short takeaway, is it. But 859 00:49:55,640 --> 00:50:00,120 Speaker 1: that's that's what I guess. I'd like people to just 860 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,600 Speaker 1: to think before they act a little bit. Well, And 861 00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:05,640 Speaker 1: I do want to concur that the book book is 862 00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:09,319 Speaker 1: very fun and very funny. Uh like all your books 863 00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,279 Speaker 1: that I've I laughed, but I also I also felt 864 00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:14,920 Speaker 1: sad at times. It made me think about things in 865 00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,320 Speaker 1: a new way. So I essentially I felt all the 866 00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:21,120 Speaker 1: fields as the as the young people say fully concur 867 00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:25,640 Speaker 1: Oh thanks, thank you, oh yeah, thank you. Thanks for 868 00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:27,520 Speaker 1: taking time out of your data to come on the 869 00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,000 Speaker 1: show and discuss the book. Totally. Thank you so much, 870 00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:35,319 Speaker 1: most welcome. Thank you all right, Well, thanks once more 871 00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:37,200 Speaker 1: to Marry Roach for taking time out of her day 872 00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:39,680 Speaker 1: to come on the show and chat with us. Her 873 00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:41,960 Speaker 1: website if you want to learn more about her and 874 00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:45,400 Speaker 1: her work, is Mary Roach dot net. And as mentioned 875 00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:48,240 Speaker 1: in the episode, there's Also, this new edition of Stiff 876 00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:50,840 Speaker 1: out now as well with new cover arts, so so 877 00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,399 Speaker 1: look for that. If you've never read it, this will 878 00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:55,360 Speaker 1: be a great Halloween season to pick it up or 879 00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:57,440 Speaker 1: or Spook for that matter, Both of those I think 880 00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:02,880 Speaker 1: would make for tremendous Halloween seasonal reads. In the meantime, 881 00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:04,600 Speaker 1: if you would like to check out other episodes of 882 00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:06,840 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind, you can find us wherever 883 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:08,640 Speaker 1: you get your podcast look for the Stuff to Blow 884 00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:11,640 Speaker 1: your Mind podcast feed. We have core science episodes on 885 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:16,600 Speaker 1: Tuesday and Thursday, Artifact episodes on Wednesday. Uh listener mail 886 00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,520 Speaker 1: on Monday's. Friday is our time to cut loose and 887 00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:21,640 Speaker 1: talk about a weird film with Weird House Cinema, and 888 00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:24,359 Speaker 1: then on the weekend you get a rerun. Huge thanks 889 00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,680 Speaker 1: as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 890 00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:29,680 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 891 00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:32,200 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other to suggest 892 00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:34,359 Speaker 1: topic for the future, just to say hello, you can 893 00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:37,399 Speaker 1: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 894 00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:47,680 Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind's production of I 895 00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,520 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio with 896 00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:53,600 Speaker 1: the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening 897 00:51:53,640 --> 00:52:07,040 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows by Press twin four D four 898 00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:10,480 Speaker 1: First Part