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Speaker 1: This week's episode of Thinking Sideways is not brought to

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Speaker 1: you by another fantastic side by the Suffer King and said,

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Speaker 1: it's brought to you by Yeah, I recognize that the

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Speaker 1: theme from some Western TV. That was the show that

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Speaker 1: was on forever And uh, you know you two can

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Speaker 1: have a hand in creating an iconic intro theme for

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Speaker 1: a series. Yeah, you can work on our intro. We

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Speaker 1: have a music intro right now which everybody loves, but

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Speaker 1: not everybody quite loves, and so we decided to have

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Speaker 1: a contest among all of our listeners to create a

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Speaker 1: new one. For the rules, go to our website that's

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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. The rules are all there.

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Speaker 1: All you gotta know is the deadline is July one,

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Speaker 1: two thousand seventeen, So get your entries in as quick

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Speaker 1: as you can. Think says I. I don't know stories

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Speaker 1: of things. We simply don't none of the answer too.

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Speaker 1: Hi there, Welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I

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Speaker 1: am your host, Joe, joined as always by Steve and

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Speaker 1: and today we're gonna bring you another fantastic mystery. I'm

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Speaker 1: mad at you guys, actually, so I don't know if

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Speaker 1: I can do this well you are. You're forgetting about

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Speaker 1: something very important. Uh you get your haircut? No, it's

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Speaker 1: our anniversary, that's what. It's our anniversary. Oh we've been

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Speaker 1: doing the show for four years today. I knew that,

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Speaker 1: of course, I know. I knew about that. Sure, so

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Speaker 1: or we did you have anything planned? Are you going

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Speaker 1: to a nice dinner? Like? Um? Well? Actually no, we

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Speaker 1: we had a big plan to do a special anniversary episode,

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Speaker 1: right Steve. Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah totally. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was a surprise. Well yeah, we hadn't. Now we haven't

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Speaker 1: forgotten anything. Okay, yeah, all right, you sure? Okay now,

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Speaker 1: and hey, no, seriously, we would never forget our anniversary.

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Speaker 1: What are you saying here? What kind of guys do

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Speaker 1: you think we are? We're smarter than that. Yeah, okay, alright,

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Speaker 1: so I guess all right, we have something planned, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: something very special. Um, of course I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: tell you what it is. It's just like the ring

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Speaker 1: in the bag on the top of the TV. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: ringing in the bag on top of the te I

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Speaker 1: don't know what happens, so funny, keep care No, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm teasing our listeners here, because yeah, you guys have

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Speaker 1: something really fantastic, but get a bag of the top

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Speaker 1: of the TV. This is just like in the TV

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Speaker 1: news and they tell you, they tell you about that

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Speaker 1: fantastic story coming up, and you know what that means

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Speaker 1: after the commercials. Yeah right, okay, And by the way,

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Speaker 1: before I forget, this topic has been suggested actually by

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Speaker 1: quite a few of our listeners. It's a popular one.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's a huge one. And I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: this list includes everybody, but yeah no, I don't think so,

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Speaker 1: but I on my list Brooke, Joe, David, Kay and

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Speaker 1: Matt and as for all the rest of you, they

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Speaker 1: suggested it and didn't get added to my list. I

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Speaker 1: apologize deeply. We usually do about five and then we're like, okay,

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Speaker 1: there's only so much room in the Google spreadsheet names unfortunately.

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Speaker 1: Yeah uh, but our mystery is about the valiska As

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Speaker 1: murders of nineteen twelve. I can't wait. Do you hear it?

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Speaker 1: Can you hear the little cheering? Yeah, big surprise to you.

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Speaker 1: Didn't know about this because we put this little thing

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Speaker 1: on the front the front of the episode that says

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Speaker 1: generic mystery. Yeah, yeah, so the vliska As murders are

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Speaker 1: They're kind of a big one. Eight people were killed

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Speaker 1: in their beds, and so well that's pretty big, what

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Speaker 1: you say. And this involved the More family of Veliska, Iowa. Valiska,

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Speaker 1: by the way, is a little small town at the

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Speaker 1: time in nineteen twelve was about I believe that's when

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Speaker 1: our mystery takes places. Nineteen twelve. Yeah, it was in

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Speaker 1: nineteen twelve, and there was a town back then of

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Speaker 1: about people. I think it's actually shrunk a little bit

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Speaker 1: since then, but it's in southwest Iowa. And of course

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Speaker 1: I've looked at on a street view it's listening like

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Speaker 1: a pleasant little town. Unfortunately, damn you Google. You can't

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Speaker 1: drive past the actual murder site itself on Google streets.

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Speaker 1: I mean really, and I know when I say damn

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Speaker 1: you Google, and I am kind of looking at gift

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Speaker 1: Horse in the mouth a little bit. Uh. Okay, let's

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Speaker 1: talk about the More family. Uh. They include Josiah Moore

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Speaker 1: who's also known as Joe Moore also known as jb Uh.

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Speaker 1: He was aged forty nine. That's why Sarah Moore aged

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Speaker 1: thirty nine. They lived with their kids in the house

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Speaker 1: at five oh eight East Second Street in Lascal, Iowa.

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Speaker 1: And so you can look it up on Google the

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Speaker 1: way I did. It's still there and it's still as

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Speaker 1: a tourist attraction. By the way, was else has been restored? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it has been. Yeah, it sort of fell into disrepair there,

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Speaker 1: but somebody did restore. It's now in the list of

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Speaker 1: historic places. Yeah. Yeah, which is kind of cool. Yeah. Okay.

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Speaker 1: There four kids were Herman, Mary, Arthur, and Paul. That's

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Speaker 1: from oldest to youngest. Herman was eleven the oldest and

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Speaker 1: Paul the youngest, was five. So small kids, I mean

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Speaker 1: old enough to operate farm machinery, sure, but I mean

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Speaker 1: go get the thresher. Totally don't fall under again. Joe

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Speaker 1: Moore had a farm equipment business in Pliska which was

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Speaker 1: reportedly very successful. He has started out years before, I

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Speaker 1: think about nineteen hundred, working for a guy named Frank Jones,

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Speaker 1: also Realiska. Joe worked for Frank for seven years before

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Speaker 1: he left to start his own business. He was the

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Speaker 1: top salesman at Frank Jones farm business, but he left

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Speaker 1: in nineteen o seven, reportedly because he didn't like working

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Speaker 1: from seven am to eleven pm, six days a week. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and uh. When Joe Moore left, he took the John

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Speaker 1: Deere account with him, which apparently didn't endear him to Frank. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that had to be a pretty valuable account. Oh, I'm

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Speaker 1: sure it was. Yeah, John Deere. It was probably the

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Speaker 1: biggest account in town. John Deere is big and was

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Speaker 1: in the Midwest, and so basically that means it because

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Speaker 1: usually stores or sell certain brands, he was the only

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Speaker 1: the only store selling John Deere. Yeah, as far as

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Speaker 1: I know, Yeah, okay, I just making sure that that's

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Speaker 1: what I understood by taking the account, that's what that meant.

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Speaker 1: I don't think John Deeer really wanted to have more

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Speaker 1: than one dealership in any given Yeah. Yeah, and so yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I'm sure that was a blow to Frank, although

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Speaker 1: as far as I know, he stayed in business. He

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Speaker 1: actually Frank Jones went on to be account He was

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Speaker 1: still fairly successful. He became a state senator, although this

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Speaker 1: whole bruhaha with the murders and everything kind of scotch

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Speaker 1: his political career just a little bit later on, but

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Speaker 1: well we'll talk about that a little later. But yet

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Speaker 1: another reason for Frank Jones to really dislike Joe Moore,

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Speaker 1: and they didn't get a long and typically they were

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Speaker 1: known to cross the street when they approached each other

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Speaker 1: on the sidewalk to just avoid each other. Yeah. That's

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Speaker 1: that's good terms right there. Yeah, really good terms. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And the reason the only reason I bring that up

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Speaker 1: is that if anything unpleasant were to happen to Joe

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Speaker 1: Moore and his family, I'm not saying it would, but

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Speaker 1: if it did were to happen, well, Frank might be

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Speaker 1: somebody the police would want to take a look at

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Speaker 1: about just saying. But more on that later. I should

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Speaker 1: also mention the or at least describe the fiscal surroundings

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Speaker 1: of the Moor's house. Uh. As I've said, their addressed

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Speaker 1: previously five oh eighties Second Street, which you can see

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Speaker 1: on Google. It's on the eastern outskirts of Aliska. Uh.

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Speaker 1: There's some new development to the east, but not a lot.

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Speaker 1: They're really even and they're kind of on the outskirts

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Speaker 1: of town. And from what I've heard, in nineteen twelve,

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Speaker 1: there were a few houses there to the east of them,

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Speaker 1: and that was it. That was the edge of town.

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Speaker 1: And the house was also in a large lot, had

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Speaker 1: a barn. Uh. There was room for some farm animals,

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Speaker 1: which included at least some horses and some chickens, and

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Speaker 1: I don't know anything else about any other animal, but

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Speaker 1: they did they apparently did not have a dog like

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Speaker 1: you can guess this because well, you know what happens.

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Speaker 1: But they had a dog, maybe maybe things would have

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Speaker 1: turned out differently, you know, probably. Yeah. And last of all,

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Speaker 1: if you look on Google, you'll know that they are

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Speaker 1: six blocks north of the railroad tracks that runs through town. Uh,

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Speaker 1: not that that that has anything to do with anything,

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Speaker 1: but in that at that time, and actually twelve about

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Speaker 1: maybe thirty trains a day passed through the town. Nothing.

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Speaker 1: That's not nothing, you know, And you're that close to

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Speaker 1: the railroad tracks, well, you know. Uh. And and lastly,

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Speaker 1: more about the town of Biliska. It's one of those

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Speaker 1: little towns that you think of as people never locked

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Speaker 1: their doors. And although I have heard in other places

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Speaker 1: that actually most people did lock their doors in Biliska

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Speaker 1: at night, but you know, I don't know, it's really

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Speaker 1: hard to say. Um. And because people wonder about this,

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Speaker 1: because they wonder how the killer got into the house

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Speaker 1: Aaron White for and also why did he pick that

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Speaker 1: particular house to begin with? Right, that's up in the

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Speaker 1: air too. So now that I've told you all about

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Speaker 1: on the family, I guess it's onto one of you guys.

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Speaker 1: I guess you've guys have done a little research on

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Speaker 1: this whole thing. Of course, yeah, I don't know we

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Speaker 1: were doing this, so I didn't prepare. I'm just kidding. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't It was supposed to be a surprise. Well,

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Speaker 1: let me let's talk about the night before the murders,

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Speaker 1: because there's some stuff that goes down, So that would

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Speaker 1: be Sunday evening, the nineth of June. The family had

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Speaker 1: gone to the Children's Day Service at the Presbyterian Church,

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Speaker 1: which they were members of, and apparently they were accompanied

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Speaker 1: by two neighbor children, Lena and Ena Stillinger, I believe

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Speaker 1: that's how you pronounce it, and those I think it

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Speaker 1: was okay, So Lena and Aina, and Lena was twelve,

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Speaker 1: I was eight, and they had had their permission, parents

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Speaker 1: permission to stay overnight with the more children. So what

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Speaker 1: they did is when they went to they went to church,

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Speaker 1: they we're going to the end of the year Sunday

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Speaker 1: school program that was called the Children's Day Service, and

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Speaker 1: Mrs Moore I understood that she was directing it, so

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Speaker 1: never mind or part of it anyway, So never mind

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Speaker 1: that her children were participating, as we're just about every

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Speaker 1: other kid in the church, but she was involved in

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Speaker 1: that way as well. According to accounts the this is

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Speaker 1: what I'm not clear on. It says that everything ended

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Speaker 1: at nine thirty, and I don't know if that means

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Speaker 1: that the children's Day event, their service ended, or if

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Speaker 1: that's when they left the church, because you know those

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Speaker 1: kind of events. People go in, the event happens, and

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Speaker 1: then you stand around and your chit chat and you

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Speaker 1: catch up with your neighbors. So regardless though, it always

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Speaker 1: says that they left at nine thirty, and at that

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Speaker 1: point they would have walked home, which was not very far.

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Speaker 1: It's about a five minute walk. If I remember correctly,

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Speaker 1: it was three blocks, so yeah, I was even closer

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Speaker 1: than that. But when they got home, everyone had a

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Speaker 1: small snack before going to bed, cookies and milk Martiniz no,

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Speaker 1: no Martiniz for the children, well maybe for the adults,

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Speaker 1: maybe for the adults um. And again not entirely clear

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Speaker 1: when they went to bed, but based on the time,

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Speaker 1: the ages of the kids in the time at night,

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Speaker 1: I'm guessing that they were probably all in bed, probably

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Speaker 1: quarter after ten or ten thirty, somewhere in that range.

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Speaker 1: This was back in the day when there was no internet,

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Speaker 1: no TV. Yeah, so you know, you know, and limited

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Speaker 1: you know, limited lighting. So they're also children, like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's what I'm getting at their twelve and they

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Speaker 1: get exhausted, even even if you're an adult. What's the

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Speaker 1: point of staying up, you know, I mean, there's just

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Speaker 1: nothing to do as well, go sack out exactly. But

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Speaker 1: but so it's after that at some point in the night.

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Speaker 1: It's believed past midnight, but we're not a positive that

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Speaker 1: the killer took the axe that was left sitting in

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Speaker 1: the backyard and attacked a family The next morning, so

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Speaker 1: this is Monday morning. Mary Peckham who was the neighbor,

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Speaker 1: she's sixty three. She got up at normal time of

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Speaker 1: five am and started her routine. She said that she

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Speaker 1: noticed the More house was surprisingly quiet, which was weird

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Speaker 1: because normally Joe Moore would get up and go take

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Speaker 1: care of the horses in the backyard before going to

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Speaker 1: his office, and Mrs Moore tended to wake up the

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Speaker 1: kids before sunrise to get them ready and to do

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Speaker 1: their chores. And when you've got four kids, they make

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Speaker 1: a fair amount of noise in the morning. So the

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Speaker 1: screaming and throwing rocks at each other, yeah, whatever the

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Speaker 1: case may be playing because their kids, so there should

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Speaker 1: have been those noises, and none of that was happening.

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Speaker 1: And by eight o'clock that morning, she hadn't seen any

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Speaker 1: of the family. So what Mary did is she went

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Speaker 1: over to the house and she knocked on the door.

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Speaker 1: Nobody answered. She tried to look through the windows, but

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Speaker 1: they were drawn and shuttered, so she couldn't see anything.

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Speaker 1: I saw that there were two windows in the entire

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Speaker 1: house that didn't have shutters or curtains or anything on

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Speaker 1: the inside, and they had clothes tacked up. Is that

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Speaker 1: did you also see that? I don't remember seeing that

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Speaker 1: there were. Yeah, and my understanding is that the windows

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Speaker 1: all had clothes tacked up on the inside. Yeah, yeah, clothes, towels, whatever. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It appears that somebody, we don't know who was trying

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Speaker 1: to hide whatever, and maybe like you know, cover the windows,

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Speaker 1: or somebody in the family did it for privacy reasons.

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Speaker 1: Because somebody broke the blinds. I know people whose children

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Speaker 1: have pulled the blinds down and they've had to hang

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Speaker 1: a sheet for a couple of days till they get it,

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Speaker 1: get replacement happen. Yeah, But anyway, so Mary, she goes

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Speaker 1: over and she looks and she can't see anything. So

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Speaker 1: she goes to the family's chicken coop, let's chickens out,

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Speaker 1: so at least the chickens can be let out for

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Speaker 1: the day, and goes home just figures, well, maybe Joe's

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Speaker 1: family got ill and they had to leave in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the tonight, and that's why they're not there.

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Speaker 1: You know. She she's justifying what's going on, is what

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Speaker 1: she's doing. So after after at Mary goes back to

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Speaker 1: your house and here the events. I've read a couple

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Speaker 1: of different versions of how this went down. And in

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Speaker 1: the simple version, one of Joe's employees came over to

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Speaker 1: the house to get his boss, couldn't find couldn't get

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Speaker 1: into the house, couldn't see anybody, and then left and

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Speaker 1: after and said something to Mary. And at that point

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Speaker 1: then Mary placed a call to Joe's brother, whose name

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Speaker 1: is Ross Moore. So that's one version that I've heard.

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Speaker 1: I've also heard that unbidden by anybody, for reasons we

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Speaker 1: don't know, Ross just came over on his own to

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Speaker 1: see the family. I don't think that was the case.

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Speaker 1: I don't think so either, because it does sound like

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Speaker 1: there was, you know, a lot. I mean, people are

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out where's Joe, what's going on. So

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Speaker 1: what happens though, is Ross comes over and he does

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Speaker 1: exactly what Mary did. He tries to look through the windows,

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Speaker 1: he can't see anything. Knocks on the door, nobody answers,

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Speaker 1: But of course he has the one thing that Mary

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Speaker 1: didn't have, which is a key. Yeah, so I thought

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Speaker 1: you were going to say a crowbar. So he unlocks

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Speaker 1: and opens the door and he goes inside where he

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Speaker 1: sees there's nothing good. So Mary waited on the porch

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Speaker 1: while Ross went into the parlor. He found Aina and

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Speaker 1: Lena's bodies in the bedroom, um in the guest bedroom

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Speaker 1: on the bed. Ross at that point, and that's on

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Speaker 1: the first floor. It's on the first floor. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: Ross at this point calls to Marry and says, hey,

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Speaker 1: go get Hank Horton. He was kind of like the

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Speaker 1: police chief. He was the the primary peace officer of

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Speaker 1: the town at the time. He had the town marshall

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Speaker 1: or town watchman or whatever you call some something some

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Speaker 1: the person in charge basically probably one of those things

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Speaker 1: where it's kind of a he's got a day job. Also.

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Speaker 1: So what happens is, um, you know, Ross finds body,

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Speaker 1: so he's you know, either goes back out or calls

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Speaker 1: to Marry and says go get Hank um and then

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Speaker 1: Ross way eats. From all the reporting, I can see

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Speaker 1: waits until Hank shows up and either Mary called her,

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Speaker 1: there's not The details are not clear here on how

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Speaker 1: Hank got down there. Yeah, if she went and ran

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Speaker 1: to get him, or if she called or what, but

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Speaker 1: he was somehow summoned. I'm gonna guess it was a

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Speaker 1: phone call. I think they called. Yeah, I would guess

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Speaker 1: that as well. But I don't know where Hank. I

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Speaker 1: mean maybe Hank lived two doors down and so she

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Speaker 1: was like, just go down there. Anyway, Hank gets back,

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Speaker 1: Hank and Mary and Ross all go into the house

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Speaker 1: and upstairs they find the entire More family had also

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Speaker 1: been bludged to death. I didn't say that Aina and

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Speaker 1: Lena's bodies showed signs of being blooded to death, but

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Speaker 1: there you go. They've been blunted to death, and as

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Speaker 1: had the entire More family. I didn't even take it

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Speaker 1: that initial look. I don't even think they peeked under

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Speaker 1: the covers. I think that the first person that I've

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Speaker 1: heard of pulled the covers back to see that they

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Speaker 1: were blunde and was like the doctor that they brought

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Speaker 1: later on. There's just a lot of blood. It was

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Speaker 1: just like bodies in the bed. There's blood everywhere. You know,

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Speaker 1: you know, what's happened to you know, you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure if it's bludgeoning or shooting or stabbing or what.

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Speaker 1: They look kind of dead. There's some killing, yeah, oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: for sure. So I've I've heard a few different ways,

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Speaker 1: but I believe that the acts that had been used

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Speaker 1: in all of the bludgeoning deaths was found in the

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Speaker 1: guest bedroom with Nina and Lena's bodies. That's what I've

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Speaker 1: heard too. So doctors were obviously called as well, and

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Speaker 1: they examined the bodies and the crime scene, and here's

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Speaker 1: what they found. They concluded that the murders had been

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Speaker 1: committed before or five am, but after midnight, probably closer

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Speaker 1: to midnight. Um, so in the early early hours of

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Speaker 1: you know, the one two hours of the morning, not

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Speaker 1: the not the later ones. The creepy factor is of

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Speaker 1: course upped when they found two cigarette butts in the attic.

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Speaker 1: I'm not totally sure why they were examining the attic

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Speaker 1: in the first place, but they found two cigarette butts

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Speaker 1: up there that would make sense. Seems reasonably spent because

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Speaker 1: they had heard of hender KAIFEK. Yeah, sorry, I said

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00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,439
Speaker 1: reasonably they they seemed recently spent. They weren't, you know,

335
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Speaker 1: as though the kids had been sneaking up there too.

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Speaker 1: Although this is and I know you, I know you

337
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Speaker 1: will find the cigarette bus in the attic thing on Wikipedia.

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Speaker 1: But what I've heard is that that Wikipedia is wrong

339
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Speaker 1: on that count, and that the actual the entrance to

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Speaker 1: the attic, which the investigators did find the day of

341
00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,040
Speaker 1: the discovery of the bodies, is actually in the closet

342
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Speaker 1: of Joe and Sarah's bedroom in the upstairs, and it

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00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,919
Speaker 1: was blocked off by boxes and clothing and stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: and so in order, and so if there were cigarette

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Speaker 1: bus there, they weren't left by the killer, because the

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Speaker 1: killer again, when they when they found the bodies, the

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00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,080
Speaker 1: closet was full of boxes and clothes, and so if

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Speaker 1: he had hidden there, he would have murdered them and

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Speaker 1: then replaced all that stuff back into the closet and stuff,

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Speaker 1: and before he left the house, unless there was an

351
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Speaker 1: entrance externally, maybe some of the in to be able

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00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:02,600
Speaker 1: to hear what was going on in the house, or

353
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:04,399
Speaker 1: maybe that too. But I mean, it's like, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's other a few places have said that he hit

355
00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,639
Speaker 1: in the cellar, same thing, though there's no there's no

356
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,240
Speaker 1: internal entrance from the house, so if he if he's

357
00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:14,600
Speaker 1: in the cellar, he's got to exit the house and

358
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,199
Speaker 1: come back into the house, which is not you know,

359
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,800
Speaker 1: the same thing. No, not not insanely crazy, but you know,

360
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:22,600
Speaker 1: that's just what I've heard. That is that the whole

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00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,760
Speaker 1: wicked thing is not not exactly so the killer spider man. Okay,

362
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Speaker 1: so yeah, so And actually I've heard another account out there.

363
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Speaker 1: I can't. I gotta start taking better notes. Another account,

364
00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:35,800
Speaker 1: which may have been a little bit of conflation with

365
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,760
Speaker 1: hintri Kaifak, because it's very hint kaifaky, is that, of

366
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,040
Speaker 1: course they the Moors did have a barn with their horses,

367
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Speaker 1: and they found evidence that somebody had had been sitting

368
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Speaker 1: on a couple of hay bills there and in close

369
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Speaker 1: proximity to a novel in one of the exterior walls

370
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,720
Speaker 1: that afforded a view of the house, and that maybe

371
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:55,720
Speaker 1: the killer was hiding in the barn and watching the

372
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,280
Speaker 1: house from the barn. But again this is very cumstantial. Yeah, well,

373
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Speaker 1: and again I think that this might really be a

374
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,040
Speaker 1: case of where over the years it's been sort of

375
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,679
Speaker 1: conflated with hinterra kaifak a little bit, you know, and

376
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,959
Speaker 1: but the same thing with the attic and stuff. Anyway,

377
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,639
Speaker 1: Devin Starry to interrupt your narrative. So the killer's hanging

378
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,040
Speaker 1: out somewhere, I guess, And he was hanging that somewhere.

379
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,320
Speaker 1: Maybe not. Maybe he just came walking up out of

380
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,600
Speaker 1: the darkness and want right into the house. The massacre

381
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,800
Speaker 1: started in the master bedroom with Josiah and Sarah. Josili

382
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,600
Speaker 1: was really really badly beaten up. He'd been hacked. Um,

383
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:29,919
Speaker 1: he'd actually been hacked. Most of the victims had just

384
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,680
Speaker 1: been blundened with like the blunt side um, the butt

385
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,320
Speaker 1: what you would call the butt of the axe. Um.

386
00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,800
Speaker 1: But he had actually been cut a number of times

387
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:39,960
Speaker 1: with the blade of the axe. In fact, he was

388
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,520
Speaker 1: beat so badly that his eyes were apparently missing which

389
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:49,280
Speaker 1: is pretty that's pretty intense. Next, the killer, because we

390
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,280
Speaker 1: don't actually know if there was only one killer or not,

391
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,560
Speaker 1: moved to the children's room. Sorry they obviously they bludgeoned

392
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,040
Speaker 1: Sarah as well at the same time at the same time.

393
00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 1: Right then they moved to the children's room. This is

394
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:04,000
Speaker 1: where herman, Catherine Boyd and Paul all were. They were

395
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,960
Speaker 1: all beaten with the butt as previously noted. Then after

396
00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,440
Speaker 1: returning to the master bedroom to beat up on Josiah

397
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,320
Speaker 1: and Sarah a bit more, the killer or went downstairs

398
00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:19,320
Speaker 1: to the guest bedroom where Anna and Lena were killing them. Lena,

399
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,480
Speaker 1: it seems, may have been awake when she was murdered,

400
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,520
Speaker 1: and that would be different from all of the rest

401
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,679
Speaker 1: of the victims. It looked like they were all asleep

402
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,240
Speaker 1: when they got bludgeoned, which means the bludgeoning had to

403
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 1: have happened pretty dang quickly, especially the children. When you're

404
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,480
Speaker 1: talking about bludgeoning four children to death without waking any

405
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,119
Speaker 1: of them up in the interim, and they were sharing beds,

406
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,120
Speaker 1: weren't they, Because I mean, there's four kids and you're

407
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 1: not a rich, i mean even a well off family

408
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,320
Speaker 1: at that time. It was it was not uncommon to

409
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 1: just stack them like Cordwood in a totally yeah. Lena

410
00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,639
Speaker 1: seems to have had signs of defensive wounds, maybe cuts

411
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,159
Speaker 1: to her arms. There's also speculation that Lina may have

412
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 1: been sexually assaulted she was found. The other reason that

413
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,520
Speaker 1: people think that she was awake was because she wasn't

414
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,280
Speaker 1: found laying next to her sister in the bed. She

415
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,959
Speaker 1: was laying across the bed um, and her nightgown was

416
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 1: pulled up to her waist, and she wasn't wearing any underwear,

417
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 1: which may or may not be some kind of evidence

418
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:25,440
Speaker 1: against something. She was the oldest child, she was twelve,

419
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,359
Speaker 1: so other than Sarah, she would have been the closest

420
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,239
Speaker 1: to adulthood. Adulthood, I guess so if trying to think

421
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 1: of a delicate way to say that, if some you know,

422
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 1: if the killer was yeah, even more disgusting than just

423
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 1: a murderer, might have been a thing. Can I just interrupt,

424
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 1: just really quickly about her her nightgown being pushed up.

425
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 1: But I never understood. What I always wondered about is

426
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,440
Speaker 1: what I couldn't because of course, obviously there's no photographic

427
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 1: evidence out there of the bodies I always wondered was

428
00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 1: her um, was her waist like on the DoD the bed,

429
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 1: because I could see if a body falls and then

430
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 1: search the slide towards the edge of the bed. Her

431
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 1: nightgown would then naturally ride up, well that's kind of

432
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,360
Speaker 1: around her hips, rather than they could bring it down

433
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 1: over her head or something like that, instead of the

434
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 1: insituation of somebody pulled it up to then do some

435
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 1: naughty business. The other the other thing is is actually, um,

436
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 1: he covered everybody's faces, and so they might not have

437
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,440
Speaker 1: been something immediate. It might have been the closest thing

438
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 1: to cover her face with was just the night dress

439
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 1: that she was wearing. Just grab it and pull it

440
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 1: up wherever her face and cover you know. So it

441
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 1: might have been that too. Got it cool? But I don't. Yeah,

442
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 1: I mean, That's what I was going to say, is

443
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 1: that just because her nightgown and she wasn't wearing underwear,

444
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,119
Speaker 1: that doesn't necessarily mean that they were removed. Plenty of

445
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 1: people to sleep, you know, without underwear, especially in those

446
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:53,680
Speaker 1: days when you didn't necessarily have Yeah, yeah, you might

447
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,680
Speaker 1: just take it off and then put you know, the

448
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 1: same pair on and again the next morning. So how

449
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 1: I do it the one for a month. The one

450
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 1: other weird thing that I want to bring up is

451
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 1: that Dr lind Quest, who was the corner at the time.

452
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 1: He was the one who was examining the bodies. He

453
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,679
Speaker 1: reported there was a slab of bacon on the floor

454
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 1: in the downstairs bedroom, laying next to the axe. This

455
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 1: is what I've heard. He said that it was about

456
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,640
Speaker 1: two pounds and it was wrapped with what he thought

457
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,919
Speaker 1: might be a dish towel. And then a second, like

458
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: a matching set of slab of bacon was found in

459
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 1: the ice box, so it could have been pulled out

460
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 1: of the ice box. But I don't know. It's weird,

461
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 1: there's but it wasn't to go, It's just sitting there.

462
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,920
Speaker 1: It was left. Well, what I mean is get it

463
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 1: ready to take it to go and then how often

464
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: have you forgotten your lunch? Well exactly, So I was

465
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: thinking that, yeah, I think maybe the killer was going

466
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 1: to take it with him, had he it was Apparently

467
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 1: what I heard is it was left in the in

468
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 1: the guest bedroom, next to the axe, which was leading

469
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 1: against the wall. And I almost might have just forgotten

470
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 1: that well, I almost wondered if you know. Again, it's

471
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:02,679
Speaker 1: hard to get a sense of the layout of the

472
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,880
Speaker 1: house or whatever, but I almost wonder if the killer

473
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 1: went in not knowing that Aina and Lena were there,

474
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: or at least that they were in the guest bedroom,

475
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 1: and went upstairs, did all his murdering stuff, came back down,

476
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 1: grabbed a slab of bacon, kind of walked near by

477
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: the guest room and was like, oh, there's two more

478
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:25,199
Speaker 1: people in there. Finish, finish the job, and then, you know,

479
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, you know, set the bacon down beat

480
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: the girls. Maybe he did end up raping Lena at

481
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 1: that point. Maybe he put the bacon in the acts

482
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 1: they're thinking, Okay, I'm gonna grab those as I leave,

483
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 1: raped her, and then just totally forgot because he, I

484
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 1: don't know, was hopefully ideally just so disgusted with all

485
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: the horrible things he'd just done he just had to leave.

486
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 1: But maybe it killed Zeppe to I think. Another another

487
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: theory is that perhaps he was an early animal rights

488
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: activist making a statement about about the condition of pigs

489
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: and slaughter houses. Maybe yeah, yeah, that's possibly so. Yeah,

490
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 1: that was the scene of the body, the scene of

491
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 1: the murderer. I guess, yeah, a killer or killers who

492
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 1: knows which. And then one last sort of weird thing

493
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: is that all the mirrors in the house had been

494
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 1: covered well, and as we mentioned in passing to all

495
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: of the all of the bodies had been I think

496
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 1: mostly it was with sheets. Yeah, it was what she

497
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 1: so it could have It was mostly most of their bodies.

498
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,880
Speaker 1: It might have been kind of a respecting or something

499
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 1: like that, because apparently, according to the doctor's testimony that

500
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 1: I read, one one good reason to put a sheet

501
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: or a towel over somebody's face before you beat their

502
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 1: head in is to keep the blood spattered down. But

503
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 1: apparently they were placed after, Yeah, they were placed after

504
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 1: after the death. The other thing that we haven't really

505
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 1: mentioned is that, I mean, Devin brought up the fact

506
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: that the sharp end of the ax was used on Joe,

507
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: but he got he got the worst, He got the worst.

508
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: That's when I was like, what forty or fifty He

509
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 1: took forty or fifty whack or something like that number. Well,

510
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 1: and that's kind of I mean, that was the thing.

511
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 1: You know, the murderer went and murdered the children, and

512
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 1: I almost wonder if he hadn't really finished the job

513
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: the first time, you know, and they're Joe was starting

514
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,120
Speaker 1: to make noises, and so he thought, long, I gotta

515
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: go kill the kids so they don't wake up and

516
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 1: come back. But I mean he went back like after

517
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: every single one. It seems like it seems like the

518
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 1: murderer killed Joe and then maybe killed Sarah or hit Joe,

519
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 1: maybe killed Sarah, killed the kids, then came back and

520
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 1: wailed on Joe. He will, he will on all of

521
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: them a bunch more. Essentially, he whacked him all. I

522
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: whacked him all at least once. And then and then

523
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 1: when he was done, and he came back and just

524
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 1: the job was starting with the parents just obliterated their faces,

525
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: but not as not nearly as bad as what happened

526
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: got the worst now he did, but but all all

527
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 1: of them, their faces were essentially obliterated, all of them. Yeah,

528
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: and it looks so it looks like he made the

529
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 1: first pass all the way through, then came back, did

530
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: all the obliterating and and then he was done. Yeah,

531
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: it's the what is it from Zombieland the triple tap? Yeah,

532
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: double tap, but yeah a little more than that really

533
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 1: and uh and then and then Apparently, like I said,

534
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: he covered all all the mirrors in the house. Um,

535
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: which may or may not be significant. Um and uh

536
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 1: also hung out a little bit. There was some stories

537
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: I've heard there was a plate of food on the table,

538
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 1: and there was also a basin that was filled with

539
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: water and that had blood in it. So maybe he

540
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: washed up after the fact, you wanted to wash all

541
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 1: the blood up, which you know, I can't blame him up.

542
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 1: Depending on where you're going to go, it would be

543
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: fairly disgusting looking. Yeah, by the end of your whole thing. Yeah. Yeah.

544
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: And then apparently he left the house bive it appears,

545
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 1: to the front door and locked it behind him and

546
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 1: took the key with him, because they know this because

547
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: the front door been locked and the key was the

548
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: only thing that was missing, so it was gone, so

549
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 1: they just assumed he took it with him. Um and yeah,

550
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 1: nice hahing to lock up. I don't know if that's

551
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: the word I would use. Yeah. Uh, Well, that pretty

552
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: much sums it up. Before we hit into our theories,

553
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: let's stick a really brief break. On a summer night

554
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: in nine seven, among the chaos of Detroit Rebellion, a

555
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: group of young people were detained, it said deal Cheers

556
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: Hotel by the Detroit pt. By the end of the night,

557
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: three of them would be dead. Instant lives Lost, an

558
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: entire city Changed Forever, directed by Katherine Bigelow. Catch the

559
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 1: premiere of Detroit starring John Buega, Anthony Mackie and Algie Smith,

560
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: premier in theaters August four, and creating a collaboration with

561
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: Antiperor Pictures as a companion piece to the movie Beyond

562
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 1: the lookout for a new podcast called Rebellion in Detroit,

563
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: which is coming soon. It's set in the same period

564
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: as a film. It's a three part mini series about

565
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: the nineteen sixty seven riots in Detroit, and it's hosted

566
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: by actor in Detroit native Courtney b. Vans. Listen along

567
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: to his podcast and find out what really happened on

568
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: the streets of Detroit over that hot week in nineteen

569
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: sixty seven and why so remember Detroit? Directed by Katherine Bigelow.

570
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: And we're back. Okay, we have a few theories here

571
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 1: for you, So with no further ado, here we go. Hi,

572
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: this is Nick and this is the captain from True

573
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: Crime Garage. Congratulations on putting out a stellar podcast for

574
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: the last four years. We're both big fans, so cheers

575
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 1: to your mates. Let's grab a chair, grab a beer,

576
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: and let's talk some true crime. Henry Lee Moore, first off,

577
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: he is no relation to the More's that were killed

578
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: in Vliska. But in our opinion, he is a great

579
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: suspect to be the perpetrator of the Valiska as murders.

580
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: Henry Lee Moore didn't actually live in Viliska, So how

581
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: could he be a great suspect? You ask, Well, the

582
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: ax murders and Valiska were not the first of their kind.

583
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: There had been a string of axe murders going on

584
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: nationwide before and after the ax murders in Valiska. Nine

585
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: months earlier, in September of nineteen eleven, six victims were

586
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: murdered by way of acts in Colorado Springs. Then in

587
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: October there'd be a triple murder in Illinois. After that,

588
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: the Showman family of five were killed in Kansas. In fact,

589
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: just days before the Veliska massacre, a husband and wife

590
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,719
Speaker 1: were slaughtered in Kansas. And there were all similarities in

591
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: these crimes, but the obvious ones were these were all

592
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 1: families being killed in their homes and being taken out

593
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: with an ax, and most of these cases, the authorities

594
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: don't have a suspect until a federal officer, this is m. W. McClary.

595
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: He decides that they must be dealing with a transient maniac.

596
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: Using that theory, he also noticed another commonality in the

597
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: string of killings. The houses were all located at various

598
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: points along the Southern Pacific Railway. Now our suspect, Henry

599
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: Lee Moore. He worked for the railways. Not only that,

600
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: but he was a bad, bad man. On December eighteenth,

601
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 1: nineteen twelve, This is the day after Henry Moore tells

602
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: his roommate that he is traveling to Columbia, Missouri, to

603
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: visit his mother, who has taken ill. Henry Lee Moore's

604
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: mother and grandmother lived together. This is Mrs Georgia Moore

605
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: and her mother, Mary Wilson. Their neighbor sees Henry Moore

606
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 1: enter his mother's home. A short while later, he goes

607
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: to the neighbor's house. He says he has just arrived

608
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: into town and wondered if the neighbor could tell him

609
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: where his mother was. She says that she believes they

610
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: would be at home. Henry goes back to his mother's house.

611
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: Then he comes back to the neighbor's house once again

612
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: and says, you've got to come with me and see

613
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: what happened. When the neighbor gets there, what she sees

614
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: is Henry Lee Moore's mother dead and grandmother dead, murdered

615
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 1: by an axe. They were hacked to death in their home.

616
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 1: The grandmother was found in her bed. Henry's mother was

617
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: killed by the back door. She had a horrible gash

618
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: in her neck and a deep cut on her forehead

619
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: that penetrated the brain. They'd find old acts with a

620
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: blunt edge and a broken handle, and they'd consider this

621
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: the murder weapon. Now, remember, Henry said that he had

622
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: arrived into town that morning, and upon his arrival, he

623
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: had found the women dead. He was arrested after authorities

624
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: learned from the neighbor that Henry had entered the home

625
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: through the back door more than once that morning. They

626
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,959
Speaker 1: also found blood on him and on his underclothes, and

627
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: later learned that Henry had rented a room at a

628
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: hotel the night before under a fake name. Getting caught

629
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: in these little white lines and his story not lining

630
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: up is not looking good for Henry Lee Moore. Furthermore,

631
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: neighbors would report that Henry's mother was not ill at

632
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: all and she was in her normal health. Henry Lee

633
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: Moore will be found guilty of these murders. Yes, he

634
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: sentenced to life in prison for the death of his

635
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 1: mother and grandmother. Many at the time suspected that his

636
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: motive for the murders was in fact money had also

637
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: received his family's property once his mother was dead. One investigator,

638
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: m W. McClary, it's actually pronounced am Debbie McClary. Well,

639
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 1: he decided that the motive for the murders was in fact,

640
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 1: that Henry Lee Moore was a serial killer that rode

641
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,720
Speaker 1: the rails, and he would go to these different homes,

642
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: break in and kill the families in their sleep at night,

643
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: and that he was motivated by the act and thrill

644
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: of killing itself. And he was a sexual maniac. So

645
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: what would be Henry Lee's motive just the thrill of

646
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 1: killing or possibly sexual assault and then covering up his

647
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: crime and regarding the murders in Vliska and the other

648
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: as murders that took place in that short time period, well,

649
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 1: Henry Lee Moore worked for the railroad. He would have

650
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 1: had the means to be in those areas, and the

651
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: fact that he was found guilty of killing his mother

652
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 1: and his grandmother, it would prove that he had the

653
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: capability and to know how to create a double murder. Look,

654
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 1: there are certainly many good suspects in the valiska As

655
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: murders case, but our guy, Henry Lee Moore should be

656
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 1: considered one of your prime suspects. Thank you, guys so

657
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 1: much again for let us be a part of this

658
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,439
Speaker 1: four year and a versary. It was so much fun

659
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,800
Speaker 1: to meet you and hang out with you and drink

660
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 1: some bruise with you at crime Con this year. Look

661
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,280
Speaker 1: forward to drinking with you again next year. First rounds

662
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: on you, guys. Cheers. Hello everyone, and welcome to a

663
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: very special episode of The Trail Went Sideways. My name

664
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: is Robin Wardour and I am the host of the

665
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: true crime podcast The Trail Went Cold. The Thinking Sideways

666
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 1: crew have asked me to help them out because not

667
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 1: only has the trail gone cold on this case, but

668
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: the trail is completely frozen solid. I got to meet

669
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: Joe Stephen Devon at crime Con and we all went

670
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 1: out to lunch together and since they picked up the

671
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: check they demanded. I reimbursed them by appearing on this episode.

672
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 1: Not just kidding. We had an awesome time hanging out

673
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 1: that weekend, and I am beyond thrilled and honor to

674
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: be a guest on their podcast, which is one of

675
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: my all time favorites. Anyway, the theory they've asked me

676
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: to cover for this case involves a suspect named George Kelly,

677
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: the only suspect who actually stood trial for this crime,

678
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,399
Speaker 1: and what makes Kelly such an unusual suspect is that

679
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 1: he was a minister, an unlikely candidate to be an

680
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 1: axe murderer. Reverend Kelly was originally born as Lynn George

681
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 1: Jackline Kelly in England before he and his wife moved

682
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: to the United States in nineteen o four. After serving

683
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: the Methodist church for years, Kelly suddenly decided that this

684
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 1: denomination wasn't for him, so he enrolled in a Presbyterian

685
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 1: seminary in nineteen twelve. On the evening of June nine,

686
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 1: Kelly was invited to attend the Children's Day services at

687
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 1: the Presbyterian Church in the Liska, which of course also

688
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: happened to be attended by the Moore family. And the

689
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,280
Speaker 1: Stillinger sisters right before they were murdered at five nineteen

690
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: am the following morning, Kelly left the Liska by hopping

691
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 1: on a train back to his hometown of Macedonia, and

692
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 1: it was about three hours later when the victim's bodies

693
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 1: were discovered. Now Kelly put himself on the radar as

694
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: a suspect when he started writing a NonStop series of

695
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: rambling letters about the murders and sending them to the

696
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,839
Speaker 1: police and the victims surviving relatives. It seemed like being

697
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: in Veliska when the murders took place caused Kelly to

698
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: develop a pretty unhealthy obsession with this case. In fact,

699
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 1: one week after the crime took place, Kelly returned to

700
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: Aliska and went to the trouble of convincing the police

701
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 1: to give him a tour of the More home. Anyway,

702
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,359
Speaker 1: One private investigator decided to write Kelly back and asked

703
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 1: him if he knew anything about the murders. Kelly responded

704
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 1: with a pretty eye opening story about how he had

705
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 1: been walking past the More home that night when he

706
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 1: heard what sounded like the thought of an axe, and

707
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,720
Speaker 1: that a man who was likely the killer briefly stepped

708
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 1: out onto the porch. Naturally, this made investigators suspicious, but

709
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 1: there was no direct evidence that Kelly was involved in

710
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,760
Speaker 1: the crime, and since he had a history of mental

711
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: illness and erratic behavior, it was hard to know if

712
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 1: his story was actually true. So Kelly dropped off the

713
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 1: radar for a while, but he got himself in a

714
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 1: bit of trouble in nineteen fourteen after he placed a

715
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 1: newspaper ad for a stenographer. When a young woman expressed

716
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 1: her interest, Kelly wrote back and essentially said that the

717
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 1: position was hers as long as she was willing to

718
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,839
Speaker 1: type in the nude. Well. This woman was mortified, so

719
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: this letter was turned over to the authorities, and they

720
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 1: proceeded to send Kelly a series of dummy letters in

721
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: which they pretended to be her. This prompted Kelly to

722
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: respond with some more sexually inappropriate letters, and their content

723
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: was apparently so offensive that Kelly was arrested for sending

724
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: obscene material through the mail. I guess this was essentially

725
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: the nineteen fourteen version of sexting, and he had to

726
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 1: spend some time in a mental hospital for it. While

727
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 1: by nineteen seventeen, the investigation into other suspects in the

728
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:45,240
Speaker 1: Billiska Acts murders had completely fallen through, so they decided

729
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 1: to focus their attention on Kelly again. The police brought

730
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 1: Kelly in and interrogated a NonStop over the course of

731
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: an entire night, until he finally broke down and confessed

732
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,320
Speaker 1: to the murders the following morning. He claimed that God

733
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,839
Speaker 1: had commanded him to kill every person in the More

734
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: household that night, and that he essentially did this while

735
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 1: in a trance like state. Of course, Kelly soon recanted

736
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: his confession, but he still went on trial for the

737
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 1: murder of Lena Stillinger. It seems like he was specifically

738
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 1: charged with that one particular murder because, in addition to

739
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: the incident involving the obscene letters, there were a lot

740
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 1: of unsavory rumors about Kelly being a peeping tom and

741
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 1: abusing his position to ask young girls to pose nude

742
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: for him. The logic seemed to be that since Kelly

743
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 1: was a sexual deviant, that's why Lena was found partially nut.

744
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 1: Maybe Kelly had become fixated honor at the children's day

745
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 1: services that night, so he decided to follow her to

746
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: the More home and then proceeded to kill everyone inside.

747
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: With an AX. The evidence against Kelly at trial was

748
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: his confession, the letters he'd written about the murders, and

749
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 1: the fact that he'd sent out a bloody shirt to

750
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 1: be laundered only a week after the crime took place.

751
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 1: There were also witnesses who claimed that they'd heard Kelly

752
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: discussing the murders on his a trip from Vliska to

753
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: Macedonia on June tenth, nineteen twelve. Remember this train had

754
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: left Veliska at five nineteen am, three hours before the

755
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 1: bodies were discovered, So how could Kelly have known about

756
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: the murders unless he had been there. Well, the problem

757
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,320
Speaker 1: is that the witnesses who supposedly heard him talk about

758
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 1: this changed their story, and given how questionable Kelly's confession was,

759
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: this was hardly an airtight case. As a result, the

760
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 1: jury wound up being deadlocked at eleven to one in

761
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: favor of acquittal. So Kelly had to go on trial again,

762
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 1: and this time he was acquitted, and that pretty much

763
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: closed the books on him. This also kind of brought

764
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,319
Speaker 1: the investigation to a dead halt, and that's about as

765
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,760
Speaker 1: close as they ever came to solving the Valiska Acts murders.

766
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 1: So I guess you could say the trail went cold.

767
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 1: So here's my personal take on Reverend George Kelly as

768
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 1: a suspect. He is most definitely a strange person and

769
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: a major pervert. I really don't think the evidence is

770
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 1: there which points to him being the perpetrator. From the

771
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 1: sound of things, the police only decided to charge Kelly

772
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,280
Speaker 1: five years after the fact because they've gotten pretty desperate

773
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 1: to close the case. You're going to hear other podcasters

774
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 1: discussed the theory that Iowa State Senator Frank Fernando Jones

775
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 1: hired a guy named William Mansfield to commit the murders,

776
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 1: but after the investigation into them fell apart. I think

777
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 1: there was a feeling that somebody had to go down

778
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: for this crime, and Kelly was a convenient scapegoat. In fact,

779
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: there were rumors that Senator Jones pressured investigators to orchestrate

780
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,359
Speaker 1: a frame up job on Kelly in order to take

781
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: the spotlight off himself. Now, Kelly's alibi on the night

782
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: of the murders was that he was asleep, but it's

783
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 1: not like anyone could officially verify it. During his trip

784
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 1: to Bliska, Kelly stayed at the home of a local

785
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 1: minister named William j Ewing. On the evening of June nine.

786
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: You in claimed that he showed Kelly to his bedroom

787
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 1: at eleven PM before he went to sleep, and that

788
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 1: Kelly was already gone by the time Youwing woke up

789
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 1: the following morning. We know that Kelly's trained departed at

790
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 1: five nineteen am, so he would have had a window

791
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: of about six hours to commit the murders. You and

792
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,280
Speaker 1: his wife were called in to testify at Kelly's trials,

793
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 1: and they stated that they believed his bed had been

794
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: slept in that night. Now, Kelly was left handed, and

795
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 1: the corner believed the blood spatters at the scene indicated

796
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: that the killer swung the axe left handed. However, the

797
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: biggest point in Kelly's favor was that he was a

798
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: pretty small fellow at only five ft two and a

799
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 1: hundred nineteen pounds, So would he really have been capable

800
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 1: of murdering eight people with an axe singlehandedly? The fact

801
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: of the matter is is that there's no direct evidence

802
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 1: placing Kelly at the scene. All we really have is

803
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 1: a coerced confession, unreliable eyewitness testimony, and a strange guy

804
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: who developed a strange obsession with this crime. I'm not

805
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 1: saying it's absolutely impossible that Kelly could have done it,

806
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 1: but in my eyes, he just seemed like nothing more

807
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 1: than a convenient scapegoat. And if there hadn't have been

808
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 1: so much pre sure to solve the case at that time,

809
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 1: I'm not sure he ever would have been charged. So

810
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 1: I'm inclined to think that the Veliska Acts murders were

811
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 1: committed by someone else. Anyway, Thank you everyone for listening,

812
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 1: and thanks again to Joe Stephen Devon for having me

813
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 1: on here. Charlie and Ali here from the Insight podcast.

814
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,760
Speaker 1: We are covering one of the suspects who made maybe

815
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 1: the biggest news partly because of who he was in

816
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: the community, and that suspect is Frank Jones. He owned

817
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 1: a large and successful store in Vliska, and Josiah Moore

818
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: worked for him for something like nine years. He helped

819
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 1: found a bank in the town and was at the

820
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:43,760
Speaker 1: time serving as a state representative, and he later became

821
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 1: a state senator. He spent twenty five years as a

822
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 1: superintendent of Sunday School for the Methodist Church. I know

823
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 1: something that you would look at as a murderer, for sure,

824
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 1: now the reason people looked at him as motive. After

825
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: working for Frank Joe for years, Josiah opened his own

826
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 1: hardware store and he worked in direct competition to Frank.

827
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,800
Speaker 1: Not only that, but he took the John Dear portion

828
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 1: of the business with him when he left. Some people

829
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 1: who work in corporate jobs today they have the sign

830
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 1: paperwork when they're hired that they won't take clients or

831
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 1: accounts with them if or when they leave the company.

832
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 1: This is why non compete clauses have prevented many acts murders.

833
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 1: I am sure of that. And according to one source

834
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: I read, the two men, who obviously didn't speak to

835
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:36,359
Speaker 1: each other, would go as far as to cross the

836
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,720
Speaker 1: street to avoid each other. And then there was gossip.

837
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,240
Speaker 1: Frank Jones had a daughter in law named Dona. Donna

838
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 1: had a reputation for meeting with men without her husband

839
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,720
Speaker 1: or a chaperone present. Back in those days, you couldn't

840
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,359
Speaker 1: just make a private phone call. You had to go

841
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:57,839
Speaker 1: through a central operator. Who could should she choose listen in?

842
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: She could? Then should she choose tell the whole town

843
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 1: about your business? Now? Is roommate that Dona and Joe

844
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 1: arranged their made up by telephone, so a business competitor

845
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,479
Speaker 1: and rumored to be having an affair with these daughter

846
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 1: in law, but there was dual motives for Frank Jones. Eventually,

847
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,919
Speaker 1: the rumors of Frank jones involvement led to an investigation

848
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 1: into him not being the murderer himself, but rather being

849
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 1: the money behind a murder for higher plot. The man

850
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 1: they thought wielded the axe is a potential serial killer

851
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 1: named William Mansfield. Mansfield would later be suspected in the

852
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 1: murder of his own family years later. One man in

853
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 1: particular really believed this theory. James Wilkerson, a private investigator,

854
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 1: was convinced that Frank Jones hired William Mansfield to kill

855
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 1: the More family. He also believed other killings across the

856
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 1: Midwest were connected, and he connected them all to William Mansfield.

857
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 1: He said that he could prove Mansfield was in every

858
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:07,320
Speaker 1: area on the notes of all of these murders. Frank

859
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 1: Jones tired of the rumors, which eventually escalated to posters

860
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 1: hung up around town accusing him of the crime. He

861
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 1: sued Wilkerson's the slander. The best offense to slander is

862
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: to prove what you said is true. So the defamation

863
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 1: suit became kind of a mini murder trial for Frank Jones.

864
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:30,760
Speaker 1: Wilkerson had various eyewitnesses who saw and heard things related

865
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 1: to the crime. This civil trial, however, happened in nine sixteen,

866
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: so four years after the murders. So why did no

867
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 1: one say any of this at the time of the

868
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: murders and why are they only saying it now. One

869
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: witness who had years previously testified at the inquest that

870
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:53,359
Speaker 1: he saw nothing unusual, was now testifying saying he saw

871
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 1: the son of Frank Jones enter the More home while

872
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 1: the Moors were still at the children's program. In the end,

873
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: all person was found not guilty of slander. Now that's

874
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 1: not to say the jury believed Frank Jones was involved

875
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 1: in the murders, but that there was enough evidence that

876
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: accusing him of being involved did not rise to the

877
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 1: level of slander. A grand jury was convened and the

878
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 1: state sought in indictment against Mansfield. The details are private,

879
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 1: as they tend to be with grand juries, but in

880
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 1: the end they failed to indict Mansfield, reportedly because he

881
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 1: had a payroll receipt and it proved that he was

882
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 1: in Illinois at the time of the murders. This essentially

883
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: ended the legal case against Frank Jones, but this widely

884
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 1: held belief that he used his influence to sway the

885
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 1: investigation and the results of that investigation away from himself.

886
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,319
Speaker 1: It ruined his political career. Now, to me, giants had

887
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: a luck to lose if it ever came out that

888
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 1: he was involved in the murders. And I can't say

889
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: even if he was, I imagine he would have had

890
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 1: it all sign up TAI so it could never be

891
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 1: traced back to him. But honestly, I think him being

892
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:07,839
Speaker 1: tied to the case is just a case of Mainsfield's

893
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 1: obsession with the murders. One of the things that really

894
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 1: leads me away from him is that slander case. He

895
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:17,760
Speaker 1: had to know with his own background that taking a

896
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 1: defamation case to court saying he's saying I'm a murderer,

897
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 1: I'm not a murderer that was going to turn into

898
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 1: a de facto murder trial for him, And if he

899
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 1: had something to lose, I don't think he would have

900
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,359
Speaker 1: done that because a lot of dirt could have come

901
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 1: out in that defamation case. He was risking a lot, right,

902
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 1: and I don't think he would have risked it over

903
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 1: a defamation case that was already going to be difficult

904
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,759
Speaker 1: to win, because defamation cases are famously difficult to win.

905
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 1: I'm Nina from the Already Gone podcast, and Bliska isn't

906
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 1: the only place for an axe murder. How about Blue Island, Illinois.

907
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 1: Blue Island is in cook Cow, me just south of Chicago,

908
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 1: and on July six there was a gruesome ax murder

909
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 1: of a family. Jacob Nislesla, his wife, their daughter, and

910
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:11,840
Speaker 1: their infant grandchild were killed. The survivor of the attack

911
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 1: Jacob's son in law, William Mansfield. Mansfield was working out

912
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 1: of town when his family was killed, and we know

913
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:21,360
Speaker 1: that two years later, in the summer of nineteen sixteen,

914
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,280
Speaker 1: Mansfield was working for the railroads in Kansas City. Now

915
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 1: Mansfield was thought to be a troublemaker because of his

916
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 1: work as a union organizer. This Detroit girl knows how

917
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 1: poorly union organizers were thought of by those and positions

918
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,280
Speaker 1: of power, particularly at the start of the twentieth century.

919
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 1: James Wilkerson of the Burns Detective Agency, he felt that

920
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: because of what happened in Illinois years earlier, Mansfield was

921
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 1: good for the murders. He was convinced that Senator Jones

922
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 1: hired Mansfield to do the deed. Wilkerson went so far

923
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,440
Speaker 1: as to hang up hundreds of flyers on lamp posts

924
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:58,359
Speaker 1: all over the city, labeling the fair haired, blue eyed

925
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 1: Mansfield William the Lackey Mansfield and implying that Johns had

926
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,759
Speaker 1: hired him to commit the murders on his behalf. Mansfield

927
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 1: was arrested and brought before Montgomery County Grand Jury. Mansfield's

928
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 1: attorneys they produced payroll records and witnesses that placed Mansfield

929
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 1: in Illinois at the time of the Vliska attack. Mansfield

930
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,880
Speaker 1: was released and he filed suit against Wilkerson and the

931
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 1: notoriously anti union Burns Detective Agency. He received twenty dollars

932
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:31,360
Speaker 1: in damages and today's money. That's a fifty thousand dollar settlement.

933
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 1: Devon Steve Joe, congratulations on four years of making the

934
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 1: magic happen. Can't wait to see what you do next.

935
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 1: Hey everyone, this is Michael from the Unresolved podcast. The

936
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: Valiska Acts murders remain one of America's most enduring mysteries

937
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 1: because of the brutality of the crimes and the eerie

938
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 1: mystery that followed. One of the theories that surfaced in

939
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 1: the days afterwards hinged on the witness statements provided by

940
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: Faye van Guil, the daughter of matriarch Sarah's sister, and

941
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 1: it involved the inclusion of a man known by the

942
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:07,439
Speaker 1: name of Joe Rix, who has found the very next

943
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 1: day with circumstantial evidence. Fay van Gilder, the sixteen year

944
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: old niece of Joseph and Sarah Moore, had stated that

945
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 1: she had seen a man on the morning before the murders.

946
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 1: Faye told investigators that this man had been demanding to

947
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,400
Speaker 1: know where the More family lived. When she gave the

948
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 1: rough description of the man to her aunt, Sarah Moore

949
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 1: hours before the older woman's death, she was told that

950
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 1: a man matching that description had been hanging around the

951
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 1: area suspiciously. So it stands to reason that whoever this

952
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 1: man was, he was likely involved in the murders, or

953
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 1: at the very least should have been suspected of them.

954
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 1: At least one other witness in Valiska recalls seeing a

955
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,479
Speaker 1: man who would call himself Joe Rix in the town

956
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:49,799
Speaker 1: of Valiska that day asking for directions. This would become

957
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 1: relevant the day after the murders on June tenth of

958
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 1: nineteen twelve, when Joe Rix shuffled off of a train

959
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 1: wearing bloody shoes. That's right, you heard me correctly. Joe

960
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: Rix had traveled to Monmouth, Illinois, from a town just

961
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:06,440
Speaker 1: fifteen or so miles south from Vliska named Clarinda. When

962
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 1: he got off of the train stayed away. Other travelers

963
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 1: became alarmed by the blood on his shoes, meaning that

964
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 1: it must have been somewhat noticeable. Police were contacted and

965
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 1: Joe Rix was detained. Fay Van Gilder, the niece of

966
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 1: the murdered family, was transported out to Illinois along with

967
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 1: a county attorney to identify the man. She did not

968
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 1: recognize Joe Rix as the man she had seen the

969
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 1: day before. But I'd like to remind everyone listening how

970
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 1: trustworthy eyewitness testimony can be. If someone asked you to

971
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:36,839
Speaker 1: identify a person you briefly saw a week beforehand, could you,

972
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:39,759
Speaker 1: especially if that person had done anything to change their

973
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 1: appearance whatsoever, as Joe Rix could have possibly done either way.

974
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 1: Joe Rix told investigators that he had obtained the bloody

975
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:49,760
Speaker 1: shoes in a trade with another passenger on the train

976
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:52,800
Speaker 1: a tramp so to speak. Does that sound fishy to

977
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:56,239
Speaker 1: you because it sounds pretty freaking fishy to me. I mean,

978
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 1: who had trade for bloody shoes? After fay Van Gilder

979
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:01,759
Speaker 1: wasn't able who identify the man she had seen on

980
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 1: the morning before the murders as Joe Rix. Police never

981
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 1: further investigated him and just simply let him go. I

982
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:09,920
Speaker 1: personally think that this was a major mistake in the

983
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 1: investigation and it's a reason why the story is still unresolved. Hi,

984
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 1: we are at Thin Air podcast, which is me Daniel

985
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 1: Calderone and me Jordan Simms. If you haven't heard of us,

986
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 1: our podcast covers cold missing persons cases and the social

987
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:28,280
Speaker 1: issues behind them. So when our friends at Thinking Sideways

988
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 1: asked us to discuss this creepy, murdery case, we were like, yes, awesome,

989
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 1: But it's also somewhat different from what we regularly do.

990
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 1: Our podcast usually features one missing person's case at a time.

991
00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 1: Daniel and I take turns telling each story, so we

992
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 1: don't really interact with one another in our episodes. So

993
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 1: what we're gonna try today is I have done some

994
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 1: research on this case. Daniel is going to kind of

995
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 1: come in blind. Yeah, I've no, I've not. I don't

996
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 1: even know the name of this case, right, So it's

997
00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 1: going to be an interesting experience to kind of see

998
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:00,840
Speaker 1: how it goes. Is the way that we're going to

999
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 1: talk today is not the tone of and structure of

1000
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 1: our regular show. We're much more serious. We don't talk

1001
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 1: back and forth. But today we're you know, we're experimenting. Yeah,

1002
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 1: I'm excited. If you want to check out one of

1003
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 1: our regular normal episodes that are not like this, we

1004
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 1: would love for you to check us out over at

1005
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 1: thin Air podcast dot com. We're also you know, Facebook, Twitter,

1006
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 1: at the Whole Shebang, So yeah, I feel free to

1007
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:27,239
Speaker 1: check us out. So what is the case that we're

1008
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:31,400
Speaker 1: talking about today. It's it's a very horrific, notorious crime.

1009
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:34,759
Speaker 1: This happened on June nine of nineteen twelve. In the

1010
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 1: house this night are Joe, Sarah, their four children, and

1011
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 1: the two sisters who are spending the night. Someone comes

1012
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:44,720
Speaker 1: in with an acts and kills all eight people. Yeah,

1013
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:48,080
Speaker 1: so these were really grizzly said of murders. They're known

1014
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:51,720
Speaker 1: as the Valiska Acts murders. Uh, And today our task

1015
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 1: is not to go into detail about the specifics of

1016
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:57,239
Speaker 1: the crime itself, but we have a theory, and our

1017
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:00,719
Speaker 1: specific theory was the theory of George Meyer. So we're

1018
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 1: going to launch into that right now. This is where

1019
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:07,719
Speaker 1: we flash forward nineteen years or so to March one.

1020
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 1: This is when a man named Lee Roy Robinson, also

1021
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:14,319
Speaker 1: known as George Myers, I think he's more known as

1022
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:18,280
Speaker 1: George Myers. He's sitting in a jail in Detroit, Michigan.

1023
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 1: He burglarized a house. All the reports I could find

1024
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 1: online we used research at the times when newspapers around

1025
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:29,880
Speaker 1: this time said that he was burglarizing a home and

1026
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:32,360
Speaker 1: he had been trapped inside, which to me is like

1027
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 1: kind of a stupid criminal, That's what I'm saying, is

1028
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 1: like me, or like you get your foot stuck in

1029
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,719
Speaker 1: the dishwashing, you close yourself in a closet, hoping no

1030
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 1: one sees you, and then you get stuck in the closet,

1031
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 1: locked in the closet, get trapped in the closet. So

1032
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,280
Speaker 1: to me, that says he's not the smartest man alive.

1033
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 1: If you're getting trapped inside the house you're robbing, you're

1034
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 1: not like a mask. But the thing about the Morris

1035
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:56,040
Speaker 1: person is that Were they smart? Okay, I don't know. Yeah,

1036
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:58,399
Speaker 1: it wasn't like that was like the super high tech

1037
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 1: criminal mind thing. By I mean he covered all the

1038
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:06,400
Speaker 1: windows though, and took all that time. Yeah, okay, just

1039
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 1: because he got caught doesn't mean he couldn't have committed

1040
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 1: this crime. It to me, they seem sort of in congruent, incongruous.

1041
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:18,960
Speaker 1: Can you tell me how to say that? Congressions? Okay? Perfect.

1042
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 1: So he's sitting in this jail. Detroit police receive an

1043
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:27,239
Speaker 1: anonymous letter, and this letter basically says, I have the

1044
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:29,319
Speaker 1: exact thing I should probably read it. If you go

1045
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 1: to the Wayne County Jail and interview a man named Myers,

1046
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 1: you will learn something about a murder in Valiska, Iowa,

1047
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 1: nineteen years ago, A particularly horrible murder. Okay, okay, I

1048
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:44,000
Speaker 1: mean it's obvious what murder they're referring to. I mean, right,

1049
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 1: it also says murder one. What do you say murders?

1050
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 1: I mean, or would you all roll them into it?

1051
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:55,359
Speaker 1: I guess it could. Yeah, I don't know. I don't

1052
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:59,560
Speaker 1: know either. Anyway, tricky now, So uh, they go to

1053
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:04,240
Speaker 1: my years Leroy Robinson, our guy, and they say, hey,

1054
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 1: did you do this? You know, we got this letter?

1055
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 1: And at first he denies it and he's sort of, um, no,

1056
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:12,920
Speaker 1: you're not going to pin this on me, how dare you?

1057
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 1: I've never been there? Uh, And then he confesses. Newspapers

1058
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:21,680
Speaker 1: at the time published what he said, and I've taken

1059
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 1: a selection of that. So this is a direct quote

1060
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,720
Speaker 1: from his statement his confession. The basic story is that

1061
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:30,400
Speaker 1: he at the time, in June of nineteen twelve, was

1062
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 1: in Kansas City, which is about two and a half

1063
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:35,480
Speaker 1: hours south by car from Vliska. A man approaches him.

1064
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 1: So here's his his statement, Justice seditor, I just got

1065
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 1: out of jail. I guess I was having a drink

1066
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 1: when a man walked up and looked me over. After

1067
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 1: a few drinks, he told me there was a family

1068
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:51,760
Speaker 1: in Valiska he wanted to get rid of and that

1069
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:56,240
Speaker 1: it was worth five thousand dollars to be done. I

1070
00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:59,439
Speaker 1: agreed to do it. He said he didn't care how

1071
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 1: it was done, except that there must be no shooting,

1072
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 1: as it would make too much noise for me. The

1073
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 1: plot thatckens with this stranger, because why why would you

1074
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:16,920
Speaker 1: have a vendetta against an entire family? So there's the

1075
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 1: theory with the senator who had this very spiteful relationship

1076
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 1: with Joe Moore. So maybe this stranger was somehow connected

1077
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 1: to the senator. But it's like he specifically says, I

1078
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 1: have a family that I need taken care of. Why

1079
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 1: on earth would you want a whole family of people killed?

1080
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:34,720
Speaker 1: What did these kids do to you? You don't make

1081
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 1: a whole family murdered for a particular reason right where

1082
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 1: a whole family would need to be for vindictive reasons. Okay,

1083
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:50,320
Speaker 1: So the second part of George Meyer's statement was this.

1084
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 1: He says that he met the man in Veliska on

1085
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 1: June nine, so the same day as the crime. He

1086
00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:58,160
Speaker 1: takes a train there, he meets in there, and this

1087
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 1: guy says, all right, here's two thousand dollars for this crime.

1088
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:05,240
Speaker 1: I'll give you the rest tomorrow. Um. And here is

1089
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 1: his quote on his statement of committing the actual crime.

1090
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 1: I walked around a while and found an axe. I

1091
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 1: picked it up, thinking it would be a good thing

1092
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:15,959
Speaker 1: in the killing. That night, I got into the house

1093
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 1: with a knife. I saw a man asleep in a

1094
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 1: downstairs bedroom. I hit him once with the axe. His

1095
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:24,920
Speaker 1: wife moved a little so I hit her. Then I

1096
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:28,000
Speaker 1: walked upstairs and saw four children in bed. I hit

1097
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 1: them with the blade side of the axe and ran

1098
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:35,400
Speaker 1: out of the house, dropping the axe downstairs. So semi

1099
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:39,880
Speaker 1: consistent but with what actually happened, but not entirely. There's

1100
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:43,880
Speaker 1: actually quite a few inconsistencies in his original statement. So

1101
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:47,000
Speaker 1: the first major inconsistency, and I think this was a

1102
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 1: big thing that later made people go he didn't do

1103
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 1: this was he only confessed to killing six people. He

1104
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 1: never talked about the girls downstairs. To me, another inconsistency

1105
00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:00,040
Speaker 1: is the idea that he drops this ax as he

1106
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 1: is running out of the house. Yeah, to me, this

1107
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 1: was not a fast There's no running involved in this crime.

1108
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 1: There's exactly exactly the ax was found downstairs, like he says.

1109
01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 1: So he says he drops it downstairs, which is accurate.

1110
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:19,560
Speaker 1: That's definitely a fact that would have been published in

1111
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 1: this crime. He says that when he went to meet

1112
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:25,280
Speaker 1: the man the next day that he never showed up

1113
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 1: and he was so mad that he just left town. Okay,

1114
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:32,920
Speaker 1: you killed eight people and you didn't get your money, right,

1115
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:35,560
Speaker 1: you're just gonna the only reason you did it allegedly

1116
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:39,720
Speaker 1: like I get who's what's your name? Yeah, what's your name?

1117
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:41,280
Speaker 1: How can I find you? How can I get ahold

1118
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:46,320
Speaker 1: of you? I'm not letting get away. He's discredited pretty quickly, Okay, Um,

1119
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 1: I don't think people took him seriously as a suspect.

1120
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:52,840
Speaker 1: After his confession was out. He got so many details

1121
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:56,120
Speaker 1: of this case wrong that even looking at the theory,

1122
01:00:56,200 --> 01:00:58,000
Speaker 1: I kind of go, yeah, I don't. I don't think

1123
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:00,840
Speaker 1: he did it for me. The bigger mystery is why

1124
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:02,840
Speaker 1: would you confess to a crime you didn't commit? And

1125
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:06,880
Speaker 1: who sent this letter to the jail about him? To me,

1126
01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 1: that's kind of this bigger mystery is why would you

1127
01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 1: confess to this horrific crime that you had nothing to

1128
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:14,640
Speaker 1: do with? So I guess one of the only questions

1129
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:18,480
Speaker 1: that I have left is whatever happened to George Meyers?

1130
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 1: So the only thing I could find was days later,

1131
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 1: So it seemed like this story was totally hot for

1132
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:27,600
Speaker 1: like a moment, and then on March so to like

1133
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 1: two days later, he's sentenced to fourteen and a half

1134
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:35,080
Speaker 1: to fifteen years in prison for this burglary that he commits. Um,

1135
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 1: there's a note in there that he around this time

1136
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:42,800
Speaker 1: attempted to jail break with ten other inmates, and that's

1137
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:46,080
Speaker 1: basically only a note that he was never charged for

1138
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 1: the crime in Iowa. That's it and then gone gone

1139
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:53,360
Speaker 1: for me. I mean, I don't buy it, and it

1140
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:55,160
Speaker 1: doesn't hold up for you. No, I don't think he

1141
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 1: had anything to do with it, But I don't understand.

1142
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:01,040
Speaker 1: I don't understand the letter, and I do not understand

1143
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 1: why you would confess to this if you have nothing

1144
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:10,000
Speaker 1: to do with it. Yeah, alright, well, um so, I

1145
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:13,040
Speaker 1: mean those are all the questions that I have remaining

1146
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:15,480
Speaker 1: about I mean, that's basically all there is about our

1147
01:02:15,520 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 1: friend George Myers, Lee Roy slash Lee Roy Robinson. So

1148
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 1: there you have it. If you've enjoyed listening to our

1149
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:26,439
Speaker 1: banter and I want to listen to our podcast that's

1150
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:29,240
Speaker 1: scripted and not interactive in any way a lot different,

1151
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:33,120
Speaker 1: go to thin Air podcast dot com and listen to

1152
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:37,000
Speaker 1: some of our reports on unsolved missing persons cases. And

1153
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:40,600
Speaker 1: thank you for having us. Thank you Sideways team. This

1154
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:45,200
Speaker 1: is Aaron and with me is Justin. We're the Generation

1155
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:50,040
Speaker 1: Why podcast. How are you thinking? Sideways folks doing tonight

1156
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:57,440
Speaker 1: talking about the Veliska acts murders. One of the suspects

1157
01:02:57,560 --> 01:03:01,440
Speaker 1: they were looking into was a man aimed Andrew Sawyer,

1158
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:05,760
Speaker 1: nothing to do with the character in the show Lost.

1159
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:09,440
Speaker 1: How this comes about is there's a man named Thomas

1160
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:14,440
Speaker 1: Dyer of Burlington, Iowa, and he's a foreman for the

1161
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:20,520
Speaker 1: Burlington Railroad. Andy Sawyer is looking for a job and

1162
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:25,120
Speaker 1: he's transient, and he approaches Thomas asked if there's any

1163
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:29,280
Speaker 1: work to be had. They described Sawyer as clean shaven,

1164
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:34,000
Speaker 1: he was wearing a brown suit, his shoes were dirty,

1165
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:38,200
Speaker 1: and his pants were wet. They said that Sawyer would

1166
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:42,800
Speaker 1: purchase a newspaper about the axe murders and was very

1167
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:47,240
Speaker 1: interested in the story. Dyer says that Sawyer slept in

1168
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:51,640
Speaker 1: his clothes and kept to himself a lot. Now, maybe

1169
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 1: he slept in his clothes because he didn't have any

1170
01:03:53,680 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 1: other clothes. I don't know what they're getting out there.

1171
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:02,800
Speaker 1: But the real creepy issue is they say that Sawyer

1172
01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:07,400
Speaker 1: slept with his ax. Do you sleep with your ax, Aaron,

1173
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:10,520
Speaker 1: I don't have an ax, just in so, I don't

1174
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:13,480
Speaker 1: know if I would or not I would. I would

1175
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:18,480
Speaker 1: say I probably wouldn't. Sawyer had a lot of information

1176
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 1: about the axe murders and would brag to dire in

1177
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:29,080
Speaker 1: the other workman about how he got away and precisely

1178
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:34,200
Speaker 1: where he ran from. He describes the area where a

1179
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:38,200
Speaker 1: man jumped over a manure box and said that's how

1180
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:42,560
Speaker 1: he escaped, and pointed at footprints in the ground. And

1181
01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:45,520
Speaker 1: he even took Dyer's son, who is named j R.

1182
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:49,479
Speaker 1: Over to the other side of the car to show

1183
01:04:49,560 --> 01:04:53,120
Speaker 1: him these footprints and an old tree. So we have

1184
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:57,840
Speaker 1: a guy who is very interested in the murders, who

1185
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:02,560
Speaker 1: sleeps with an ax which the murder weapon used. It

1186
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:06,720
Speaker 1: seems to have some inside information about the details of

1187
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:10,920
Speaker 1: how the murderer got away. That seems kind of suspect

1188
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 1: right right well, And as you said, he was looking

1189
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:17,120
Speaker 1: for a job. It wasn't even just this that he

1190
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 1: was talking about this case. But they said that his

1191
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:25,520
Speaker 1: eyes looked mad, they looked glassy, So he was not

1192
01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 1: really fitting in well with the other guys that we're

1193
01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:32,600
Speaker 1: working in this area. They were all nervous of him.

1194
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:37,600
Speaker 1: One night, he he jumps up and says, I'll cut

1195
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:40,760
Speaker 1: your goddamn heads off. I don't know if he was

1196
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:43,840
Speaker 1: actually saying it to anybody or just saying it in general,

1197
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:47,480
Speaker 1: but that's crazy town. I think you have to take

1198
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:50,560
Speaker 1: him at his word. You have to really respect what

1199
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:54,520
Speaker 1: he's saying and take heed because they said when they

1200
01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:56,680
Speaker 1: first tried to put him to work, they could tell

1201
01:05:56,680 --> 01:06:00,080
Speaker 1: that he had lied about his experience. You know. They

1202
01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:02,720
Speaker 1: asked him if he was good with steam engines, and

1203
01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:05,920
Speaker 1: he said, oh yeah, but he had no idea what

1204
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:11,200
Speaker 1: he was doing. So then they had him sharpening sharpening piles.

1205
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:14,880
Speaker 1: They were driving these poles into the river. They said

1206
01:06:14,920 --> 01:06:17,680
Speaker 1: with his ax, he could sharpen things up pretty quick.

1207
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:20,640
Speaker 1: So he was obviously good with his ax, you know,

1208
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:25,240
Speaker 1: the one he slept with. The Only reason why I

1209
01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:29,760
Speaker 1: guess I don't feel he's a legit suspect is the

1210
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:34,720
Speaker 1: officials say that he was arrested for vagrancy in another

1211
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:38,800
Speaker 1: part of town the night of the murders. So if

1212
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:43,960
Speaker 1: that's true, obviously he has a pretty good alibi. I

1213
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:48,280
Speaker 1: guess we're all into true crime. We're all interested in

1214
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:52,360
Speaker 1: activities that go around us, So him buying the newspaper

1215
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:58,760
Speaker 1: and reading about the murders maybe shouldn't be that suspect. Also,

1216
01:06:59,320 --> 01:07:02,320
Speaker 1: maybe he read something in the newspaper that talked about

1217
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:06,960
Speaker 1: the escape route that the murderer took. I don't know. Well.

1218
01:07:07,040 --> 01:07:10,560
Speaker 1: His co workers contacted the sheriff, and the sheriff spoke

1219
01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:15,240
Speaker 1: with him, but they didn't arrest Sawyer. They let him go,

1220
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:19,240
Speaker 1: and it seemed as though at least his coworkers thought

1221
01:07:19,240 --> 01:07:22,680
Speaker 1: he could have committed these murders because they thought he

1222
01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 1: was crazy and he loved his acts too much. But

1223
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:29,080
Speaker 1: he ended up quitting and going back home to his family,

1224
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:31,920
Speaker 1: of all things, So he did have a family. It

1225
01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:35,320
Speaker 1: wasn't like he was just off on his own. Uh,

1226
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:37,640
Speaker 1: he was just looking for work. I guess if they

1227
01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:42,360
Speaker 1: vetted him properly, then I'm gonna disregard him as a suspect.

1228
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:47,240
Speaker 1: But if that's only going off of the arrest for vacancy, yeah,

1229
01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:52,479
Speaker 1: they did vet his stories. The sheriff supposedly went through

1230
01:07:52,520 --> 01:07:55,400
Speaker 1: with him his timeline, where he was, what he had

1231
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:58,720
Speaker 1: been up to, as best they could. In the end,

1232
01:07:59,680 --> 01:08:02,600
Speaker 1: they're always be people who look at at Andy Sawyer

1233
01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:06,160
Speaker 1: and say, oh, he's a very good suspect. But at

1234
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:08,920
Speaker 1: least as far as law enforcement at the time was concerned,

1235
01:08:09,760 --> 01:08:12,760
Speaker 1: he doesn't really check out to be a good suspect.

1236
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:16,000
Speaker 1: But if you're looking for someone just crazy enough to

1237
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:19,479
Speaker 1: commit such a horrible series of murders in a home

1238
01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:24,080
Speaker 1: like as to what happened in this case, Yeah, and

1239
01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:26,880
Speaker 1: he does seem crazy, but these are the accounts of

1240
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:30,519
Speaker 1: his coworkers, and um, just like any other case, we

1241
01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:32,639
Speaker 1: don't know what he was going through at the time,

1242
01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:36,160
Speaker 1: and so since we don't have interviews with people who

1243
01:08:36,240 --> 01:08:38,920
Speaker 1: knew him for years and years, we don't get a

1244
01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:43,800
Speaker 1: good complete picture of Andrew Sawyer. We just have what

1245
01:08:43,880 --> 01:08:46,479
Speaker 1: was he like around the time of the murders. Well,

1246
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:49,479
Speaker 1: he was crazy and he slept with his acts. Happy

1247
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:53,040
Speaker 1: anniversary thinking sideways. Do you guys like that? Okay, well

1248
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:56,600
Speaker 1: that was pretty awesome first off, very fun. Thank you.

1249
01:08:56,800 --> 01:08:59,639
Speaker 1: That was totally cool. Now it's so great theorizing there.

1250
01:08:59,760 --> 01:09:02,479
Speaker 1: And uh and first off, I think we had to

1251
01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:05,320
Speaker 1: thank the Captain and Nick from Truth Crime Garage, Robin

1252
01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:09,400
Speaker 1: Murdered from Trail Want Colds and gosh who else, Alian

1253
01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:12,880
Speaker 1: Charlie from The Insight from Already Gone, Nina, Thanks Nina,

1254
01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:16,840
Speaker 1: and of course from Unresolved, and Daniel from Thin Air

1255
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:20,400
Speaker 1: and our besties Aaron and Justin from john Way. Yeah,

1256
01:09:20,760 --> 01:09:23,920
Speaker 1: once again we've got him interning. Yeah, you guys yeah, no,

1257
01:09:24,080 --> 01:09:28,040
Speaker 1: great job. Way to point the finger of guilt all

1258
01:09:28,080 --> 01:09:31,960
Speaker 1: of you. And we like that now. Um and so well,

1259
01:09:32,040 --> 01:09:37,599
Speaker 1: you guys have any favorites yourselves among the suspects. Um No,

1260
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:41,120
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's hard because I mean, really honestly,

1261
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:45,160
Speaker 1: I think they are all good suspects, but none of

1262
01:09:45,160 --> 01:09:47,800
Speaker 1: them are great. And there there hears to be a

1263
01:09:47,840 --> 01:09:51,000
Speaker 1: lot of ax murdering going on in that that neck

1264
01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:54,800
Speaker 1: of the country at that time, So it's really difficult.

1265
01:09:54,920 --> 01:09:58,400
Speaker 1: You know. You think about like Henry Lee Moore and

1266
01:09:58,680 --> 01:10:01,599
Speaker 1: he there's killing. But then there's Andy Sawyer who likes

1267
01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:04,200
Speaker 1: to sleep with his ax. So I mean, Andy's kind

1268
01:10:04,240 --> 01:10:08,120
Speaker 1: of my favorite, just because the weirdo factor. I don't know,

1269
01:10:08,160 --> 01:10:13,320
Speaker 1: I just I don't think he was a necessarily this

1270
01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:15,120
Speaker 1: sort of thing. I mean, I think he just had

1271
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:18,759
Speaker 1: some issues going. You know. Well, I actually, if I

1272
01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:20,760
Speaker 1: if I lived in in a time when there were

1273
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:23,920
Speaker 1: axe murders murders running around all over the place, I'd

1274
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:25,640
Speaker 1: probably sleep with my ax too. If you're not a

1275
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:30,400
Speaker 1: revolver or something, I can't really blame Andy for that. Um. Yeah,

1276
01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:33,000
Speaker 1: I don't know that the only one of these these

1277
01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:35,000
Speaker 1: people that actually went to trial was, of course, the

1278
01:10:35,040 --> 01:10:39,720
Speaker 1: Reverend Kelly, who actually confessed, although his confession is a

1279
01:10:39,840 --> 01:10:43,800
Speaker 1: dubious quality. I had heard that he actually confessed to

1280
01:10:43,840 --> 01:10:48,680
Speaker 1: the sinking of the Lusitania. Not seriously. I think this

1281
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:52,439
Speaker 1: guy everything, Yeah, I think he has some issues. He

1282
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:55,080
Speaker 1: was also a big burv, so yeah, I wanted to

1283
01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:58,439
Speaker 1: throw in more. One more suspect, by the way, oh boy, yeah,

1284
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:02,880
Speaker 1: one more suspect. My murder suspect is Josiah Moore, who,

1285
01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:06,559
Speaker 1: by the way, it was never actually positively identified. I

1286
01:11:06,560 --> 01:11:09,120
Speaker 1: mean I read the testimony from the doctor that I

1287
01:11:09,120 --> 01:11:11,560
Speaker 1: and they were all essentially they went into the bedroom

1288
01:11:11,640 --> 01:11:13,920
Speaker 1: and they pulled back the covers and then they saw

1289
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:16,280
Speaker 1: him all with his face obliterated and everything, and the

1290
01:11:16,320 --> 01:11:20,800
Speaker 1: doctor said, yeah, that's Joe, and that's I think that's

1291
01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:23,680
Speaker 1: I don't think they ever actually Obviously, dental records are out,

1292
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:28,759
Speaker 1: facial recognition is right out. I don't also nineteen twelve,

1293
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:31,320
Speaker 1: so it's not as though like fingerprint fingerprinting was in

1294
01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:33,880
Speaker 1: its infancy. His fingerprints would not have been on a

1295
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:36,280
Speaker 1: file anywhere. How did identify the body. But if that's

1296
01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:39,439
Speaker 1: the doctor, the doctor may have seen Joe with his

1297
01:11:39,560 --> 01:11:41,560
Speaker 1: shirt off, and I don't know, maybe Joe had a

1298
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:45,160
Speaker 1: you know, a set of scars or birthmarks or something

1299
01:11:45,200 --> 01:11:48,120
Speaker 1: like that, you know, very defining features might standing from

1300
01:11:48,120 --> 01:11:51,200
Speaker 1: the testimony was that it was just assumed right off

1301
01:11:51,240 --> 01:11:53,840
Speaker 1: the bat by everybody that it was it was Josiah

1302
01:11:53,880 --> 01:11:57,160
Speaker 1: and Sarah in the Bedday. Well, here's a question. If

1303
01:11:57,200 --> 01:12:01,240
Speaker 1: it was Josiah, why would he mean this series of

1304
01:12:01,320 --> 01:12:04,639
Speaker 1: murders when the neighbor girls were over killed him too?

1305
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:07,200
Speaker 1: If he wanted to kill his entire family what he

1306
01:12:07,479 --> 01:12:13,000
Speaker 1: snapped and that children's day exactly. I'm not saying this

1307
01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:17,080
Speaker 1: series has no holes in it, but I mean it doesn't.

1308
01:12:17,360 --> 01:12:19,639
Speaker 1: I was gonna say it's kind of like Swiss cheese. Yeah,

1309
01:12:19,640 --> 01:12:21,840
Speaker 1: it does. It does, But that would explain one thing,

1310
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:24,080
Speaker 1: which is why the killer went to extra links to

1311
01:12:24,120 --> 01:12:27,200
Speaker 1: obliterate his face more than anybody else's. Of course, it

1312
01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:30,920
Speaker 1: could be the killer especially hated him, or it could

1313
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:33,280
Speaker 1: be the killer had it could be And here's another

1314
01:12:33,360 --> 01:12:35,640
Speaker 1: another possibility, and one that I actually think is the

1315
01:12:35,680 --> 01:12:38,759
Speaker 1: strongest one, is that I think it was a random

1316
01:12:38,800 --> 01:12:42,519
Speaker 1: serial killer. And uh it, maybe it may mend this

1317
01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:44,559
Speaker 1: guy might have had issues with his own dad, and

1318
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:46,679
Speaker 1: so dad and his family came in for a little

1319
01:12:46,680 --> 01:12:49,680
Speaker 1: extra abuse. But if if you look at some of

1320
01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:51,880
Speaker 1: the other acts murders, and I'm not the first person

1321
01:12:52,000 --> 01:12:54,200
Speaker 1: to actually try to tie this in with a lot

1322
01:12:54,240 --> 01:12:57,440
Speaker 1: of other random acts murders that took place across the Midwest,

1323
01:12:57,479 --> 01:12:59,120
Speaker 1: but there was a lot of murdering. There are a

1324
01:12:59,120 --> 01:13:00,920
Speaker 1: lot of them, and what they all had in common

1325
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:05,280
Speaker 1: was their proximity to railroad tracks. At least riding the

1326
01:13:05,360 --> 01:13:07,000
Speaker 1: rails was a common way to get around back in

1327
01:13:07,080 --> 01:13:10,519
Speaker 1: those days. And so without getting into, you know, incredible

1328
01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:13,400
Speaker 1: detail about all these other murders, let's just say that,

1329
01:13:14,479 --> 01:13:16,439
Speaker 1: you know, I think that there might just be a

1330
01:13:16,479 --> 01:13:19,400
Speaker 1: tie in there, and it could. It's entirely possible. This

1331
01:13:19,479 --> 01:13:22,160
Speaker 1: was just a random thing. This guy might have gotten

1332
01:13:22,160 --> 01:13:25,240
Speaker 1: off the train, walked up the street towards their house,

1333
01:13:25,600 --> 01:13:27,479
Speaker 1: trying door knobs until he found the house that was

1334
01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:30,759
Speaker 1: unlocked and that didn't have a dog, and just walked

1335
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:33,360
Speaker 1: in and did his thing, and then just walk back

1336
01:13:33,360 --> 01:13:35,800
Speaker 1: down to the train tracks and left. Yeah. I mean,

1337
01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:39,200
Speaker 1: maybe my question then would be why the master bedroom

1338
01:13:39,240 --> 01:13:41,320
Speaker 1: seemed to have been the furthest away from the door,

1339
01:13:41,960 --> 01:13:44,559
Speaker 1: So why go all the way in and murder your

1340
01:13:44,600 --> 01:13:46,800
Speaker 1: way all the way out on the chance that somebody

1341
01:13:46,880 --> 01:13:48,679
Speaker 1: might wake up and notify the rest of the house.

1342
01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:52,080
Speaker 1: Why wouldn't you start from the beginning and work your

1343
01:13:52,120 --> 01:13:55,439
Speaker 1: way back. Oh, I think that if it were me,

1344
01:13:55,920 --> 01:13:58,799
Speaker 1: what I would do first is I would identify the

1345
01:13:59,280 --> 01:14:01,400
Speaker 1: probably the parents, and killed them first, because those are

1346
01:14:01,400 --> 01:14:03,760
Speaker 1: the people, especially the dad, we are most likely to

1347
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:08,320
Speaker 1: have a gun or be able to overpower you or whatever. Yeah,

1348
01:14:09,160 --> 01:14:12,280
Speaker 1: so that's why I would definitely kill mom and dad first.

1349
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:15,360
Speaker 1: I would. Yeah, of course, you know, I'm not a killer.

1350
01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:19,519
Speaker 1: I don't know, but uh so, yeah, well that's a

1351
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:23,320
Speaker 1: good point. And you know, I think you guys, that's

1352
01:14:23,320 --> 01:14:25,400
Speaker 1: why you guys should be glad we're doing commercials, because

1353
01:14:25,439 --> 01:14:27,600
Speaker 1: that that means I have a financial incentive not to

1354
01:14:27,680 --> 01:14:37,720
Speaker 1: kill you. Yeah, so yeah, keep those commercials coming kids. Otherwise, Yeah, old,

1355
01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:40,280
Speaker 1: enough of those dark theories things. But that's that's that's

1356
01:14:40,320 --> 01:14:42,920
Speaker 1: my theory essentially, is that it probably was a random

1357
01:14:42,960 --> 01:14:46,400
Speaker 1: dude you guys. Now, okay, well let's wrap this one

1358
01:14:46,520 --> 01:14:50,960
Speaker 1: up then. First of all, happy anniversary, Happy anniversary, thanks

1359
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:55,439
Speaker 1: for something special just for you. Yeah, of course you

1360
01:14:55,479 --> 01:14:58,280
Speaker 1: probably have your own theories out there. Uh so you

1361
01:14:58,320 --> 01:15:02,280
Speaker 1: can reach us via email l at Thinking Sideways Podcast

1362
01:15:02,320 --> 01:15:06,160
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. We also have a website, which

1363
01:15:06,320 --> 01:15:10,200
Speaker 1: is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com, where you can find

1364
01:15:10,200 --> 01:15:12,479
Speaker 1: our episodes and download them. That are all. They're also

1365
01:15:12,640 --> 01:15:16,240
Speaker 1: links to merch at red Bubble and Zazzle. You can

1366
01:15:16,240 --> 01:15:18,479
Speaker 1: get shirts and mugs and all kinds of cool stuff.

1367
01:15:19,040 --> 01:15:21,479
Speaker 1: And where else. We're on iTunes. Find us on iTunes

1368
01:15:21,520 --> 01:15:23,720
Speaker 1: if you haven't already, and you probably have, but if

1369
01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:27,040
Speaker 1: you are so inclined, give us a rating and a review,

1370
01:15:27,200 --> 01:15:30,439
Speaker 1: preferably good ones, and you can stream us from all

1371
01:15:30,520 --> 01:15:33,320
Speaker 1: kinds of places including we Stitcher is a big one,

1372
01:15:33,920 --> 01:15:37,240
Speaker 1: and a lot of others. And where else social media. Facebook.

1373
01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:40,080
Speaker 1: We're on Facebook where you can like, join the group

1374
01:15:40,120 --> 01:15:41,639
Speaker 1: and like the pages. That's the way, that's the order

1375
01:15:41,640 --> 01:15:44,599
Speaker 1: it works in Yeah, it is, Yeah, And of course

1376
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:48,080
Speaker 1: we're on Reddit where we are thinking sideways, and we

1377
01:15:48,160 --> 01:15:52,080
Speaker 1: are on Twitter where we are thinking sideways. What am

1378
01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:54,760
Speaker 1: I forgetting, guys? I can't think of anything. I think

1379
01:15:54,760 --> 01:15:57,639
Speaker 1: that's yeah, Wow, you did that all from memory. Good jobs.

1380
01:15:57,880 --> 01:16:03,240
Speaker 1: I'm getting better. If it's only taken four year, that

1381
01:16:03,240 --> 01:16:06,200
Speaker 1: that's it. And again we want to hear from you guys.

1382
01:16:06,320 --> 01:16:09,479
Speaker 1: If you live in Bliska or nearby. I would love

1383
01:16:09,479 --> 01:16:11,720
Speaker 1: to hear from you, especially who your favorite theories are.

1384
01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:14,479
Speaker 1: My understanding is that the town kind of split between

1385
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:17,720
Speaker 1: Methodists and Presbyterians after this whole thing happened, because the

1386
01:16:17,720 --> 01:16:21,960
Speaker 1: Moors were Presbyterians and the chief, the chief accusing was

1387
01:16:22,000 --> 01:16:25,280
Speaker 1: Frank Jones, who was a Methodist, and so that there

1388
01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:27,800
Speaker 1: was a big apparently it was a big controversy for

1389
01:16:27,880 --> 01:16:31,040
Speaker 1: years in this town. Um and yeah, that's but other

1390
01:16:31,080 --> 01:16:33,760
Speaker 1: than that, Okay, So if you're either a Methodist or

1391
01:16:33,840 --> 01:16:36,400
Speaker 1: Presbyterian from Bliska, we'd like to hear from your side

1392
01:16:36,439 --> 01:16:40,280
Speaker 1: of the story. Uh, all right until next week to

1393
01:16:40,439 --> 01:16:42,800
Speaker 1: to lou Talculator. Guys, Bie guys,