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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People who did cool stuff.

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Speaker 2: You're weekly reminder that when there's bad things happening, people

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Speaker 2: try to do good things with it. And this is

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Speaker 2: like an extra that this week episode. But first, I'm

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Speaker 2: your host, Margaret Hill Joy. And second, but not in

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Speaker 2: order of lower priority, but just literally in a temporal

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Speaker 2: order of who's introduced is my guest, Alison Raskin. Hi,

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Speaker 2: how are you?

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Speaker 3: I'm so good. It's great to see you.

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Speaker 2: It's good to see you too. And I hear that tomorrow,

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Speaker 2: not tomorrow as we record, but tomorrow as a release.

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Speaker 2: Do you have a book coming out? Are you the

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Speaker 2: Alison Raskin, the New York Times bestselling author of a

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Speaker 2: new rom com Save the Date that comes out tomorrow.

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Speaker 4: You know what I am, and I'm freaking out about

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Speaker 4: it in both good and anxiety driven ways.

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Speaker 2: Book releases are weird because like you have to be

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Speaker 2: like really really really excited as it all builds up

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Speaker 2: and then it collapses so fast, you know, and like,

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Speaker 2: I mean the book has a long tail and everyone

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Speaker 2: and it still matters and stuff, but I don't know.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you're like for like years, you're like working on

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Speaker 4: this thing and you're like, Okay, this is going to

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Speaker 4: change everything for me. Yeah, and then sometimes people just

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Speaker 4: enjoy it and then your life stays the same, which

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Speaker 4: is also wonderful.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, that is usually what happens with the most books.

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Speaker 2: And then also, of course, like I would guess how

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Speaker 2: long ago did you finish this book writing it?

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Speaker 4: Well, because like you know about the whole Like I

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Speaker 4: don't know when copy ed it's finished, but I know

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Speaker 4: I had to get like my first full draft was

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Speaker 4: due in December of twenty twenty three, and so then

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Speaker 4: maybe like a few months after.

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Speaker 3: That it got finalized. Yeah, it's been a wait.

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Speaker 2: That's the thing that's funny about books is they're like,

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Speaker 2: by the time it comes out and everyone's suddenly excited

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Speaker 2: about it, you're usually like writing the next thing, and

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Speaker 2: you're like, yeah, totally the.

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Speaker 3: Next thing, and I'm behind on the next thing.

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Speaker 2: So it's me too, I am currently behind on a thing. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: have you seen the good meme exactly for you? It's

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Speaker 2: the dog and the House on fire that usually says

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Speaker 2: like this is fine or whatever, but instead it says,

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Speaker 2: so I have a book coming out.

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Speaker 4: And also because my other book, my nonfiction book got

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Speaker 4: kind of screwed up with when it came out.

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Speaker 3: It came out six months ago, and so I'm.

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Speaker 4: Like, people are probably like Al's and we just we

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Speaker 4: just went through this with you, like we're not ready

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Speaker 4: for this level of self promotion back to back.

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Speaker 2: I like to think that people just sort of accept

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Speaker 2: it as like, well, that's her job. Like I hope

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Speaker 2: that because that's what I have to do constantly. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm currently not in a publicity cycle for a book,

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Speaker 2: because I just finished a publicity cycle for a book.

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Speaker 2: But like, wait, how do I make this tie into

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Speaker 2: what we're talking about today? Books matter? Escapism is genuinely

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Speaker 2: a useful thing. I think it's Tolkien has a quote

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Speaker 2: that then's paraphrased by Legwin about how imagine telling a

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Speaker 2: soldier in a pow camp that they shouldn't try to escape?

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Speaker 2: Why do people talk trash on escapism? We should be

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Speaker 2: able to escape? And so this idea that like reading

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Speaker 2: something that's lighthearted or serious, but like I'm guessing since

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Speaker 2: it's a rom comm it's like somewhat lighthearted, you know,

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Speaker 2: and like I don't know, there's an actual value to that,

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Speaker 2: is what I'll say.

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Speaker 3: I think that's so true.

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Speaker 4: And I'm someone that like I steer clear of like

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Speaker 4: really sad books and really sad TV and movies because

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Speaker 4: I don't know, I experienced that so much in my

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Speaker 4: real life that like, when I've engaging with like narrative content,

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Speaker 4: I want to like tap into like my more positive emotions.

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Speaker 2: It makes sense to me. I like writing both. But

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Speaker 2: I really like writing kind of like pulpy fun adventure,

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Speaker 2: even though adventure is usually a description of bad things happening,

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Speaker 2: you know, like like violence is like actually really bad,

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Speaker 2: it hurts everyone involved, but we're like fun, you know. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: That also, like with the Rob Cob it was inspired

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Speaker 4: by my broken engagement, and so it's like, oh, I'm

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Speaker 4: turning like one of the most traumatizing experiences of my

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Speaker 4: life into this like fun love story, which is like

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Speaker 4: also kind of a cool way of like reclaiming the

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Speaker 4: narrative around it. But it sometimes as a writer, you're like, oh,

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Speaker 4: I don't have anything to write about until the next

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Speaker 4: terrible thing happens to me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. The first several stories I sold were about some

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Speaker 2: of the worst things that have ever happened to me

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Speaker 2: just turned into like fiction, and and then at some

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Speaker 2: point I was like, what am I gonna do when

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Speaker 2: I can't like just stare at the abyss of my

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Speaker 2: soul anymore? But this story, okay, the story that I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna tell you this week, this story has it all.

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Speaker 2: This story is like if someone were to come up

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Speaker 2: with the ultimate cool people who did cool stuff episode,

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Speaker 2: it would maybe be this story. And one of the

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Speaker 2: things in this story is maybe my favorite love story

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Speaker 2: that I've ever told on this show.

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Speaker 3: I'm very excited and honored to be here for this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: No, I well it ties into the last thing I

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Speaker 2: had you on, but first or third, depending on how

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Speaker 2: we're counting things. We also have producers like Sophie Lichterman,

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Speaker 2: who's not with us today on recording but is our producer.

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Speaker 2: And also Rory is our audio engineer, and everyone wants

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Speaker 2: to say hi to Rory. Hi Rori, Hi Riri. And

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Speaker 2: our theme music was written for Spyon Woman and this week, Okay,

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Speaker 2: normally I do the like, have you heard about this thing?

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Speaker 2: And it is possible that you have, but I haven't

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Speaker 2: talked to anyone who's heard of this thing besides my

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Speaker 2: friend who told me about it in the first place.

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Speaker 2: This week We're going to be talking about the San

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Speaker 2: Alban Hospital in rural France, like Saint Alban is how

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Speaker 2: I would want to pronounce it, and I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to pronouncing French hospital in rural France, where patients and

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Speaker 2: doctors collectively resisted fascist occupation and while they were at it,

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Speaker 2: they radically reinvented psychiatry and psychotherapy. We are going to

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Speaker 2: talk in particular about its founder, who is either an

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Speaker 2: anti authoritarian communist or an an archo syndicalist or an

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Speaker 2: arc of communist, depending on what source you read, whose

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Speaker 2: name was Francois Toscaeus, who fought in the Spanish Civil

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Speaker 2: War before fleeing to France, fleeing one fascist occupation to

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Speaker 2: find himself square in the middle of another one.

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Speaker 4: I mean, that has to be so annoying, like I

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Speaker 4: can't like you must just be like really.

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Speaker 2: I know, and I think about it a lot when

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Speaker 2: I'm like, for some weird reason, a lot of trans

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Speaker 2: people and other people who are marginalized or like thinking

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Speaker 2: about like I wonder if the US is the place

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Speaker 2: to live, you know, oh, definitely, And I think a

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Speaker 2: lot about the people who let fled France or like

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Speaker 2: some of the other people in this story fled Italy

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Speaker 2: or Germany or whatever and then ended up in another

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Speaker 2: country that was also Fascist occupied very shortly. But the

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Speaker 2: reason I'm having you on for this one a few

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Speaker 2: months ago you probably remember, but I'm going to remind

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Speaker 2: the audience. We ran some episodes about alternative models by

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Speaker 2: and four people living with mental illness. You were the

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Speaker 2: guest on episodes about Fountain House and the clubhouse model

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Speaker 2: for helping folks when they are out of a mental

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Speaker 2: health hospital, and the core idea of that model, the

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Speaker 2: clubhouse model, is to break down hierarchies like between the

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Speaker 2: sick and the well, the patient and the doctor. It

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Speaker 2: is a model that is designed to help people build

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Speaker 2: agency by giving them an actual stake not just in

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Speaker 2: their own healing, but their own stake in the entire facility,

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Speaker 2: the entire clubhouse, and that model has since spread around

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Speaker 2: the world. Then, a couple weeks later, for people who've

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Speaker 2: been listening a lot, I covered Bethel House, which is

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Speaker 2: a com organization in Japan that takes things a step further,

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Speaker 2: or maybe in a step in a different direction, and

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Speaker 2: has built a sort of entire society that runs parallel

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Speaker 2: to mainstream Japanese culture, and how they developed this idea

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Speaker 2: of self study by which patients themselves become the experts

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Speaker 2: on their own ailments and treatments, and how that idea

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Speaker 2: has spread again across the world. The other thing that

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Speaker 2: came up in both of those episodes that ties into

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Speaker 2: this one too is how maybe rather than the collectives

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Speaker 2: of patients needing to learn from the healthy world, the

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Speaker 2: healthy world has a lot to learn from people who

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Speaker 2: are dealing with stuff. Not because they have this problem,

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Speaker 2: but because they are dealing with the problem. They are

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Speaker 2: like facing something and dealing with it head on.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 2: The simplest, clear example of that I can use is

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Speaker 2: that when we did the Bethel House, the Japanese group,

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Speaker 2: they developed a disaster preparedness framework for their members and

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Speaker 2: for the local town soon enough that was inclusive of

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Speaker 2: both mental and physical disability. Basically like, they're kind of

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Speaker 2: within the tsunami warning zone, right on a coast.

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Speaker 4: I'm so afraid of tsunamis. That's one of my major triggers.

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Speaker 3: I don't know why.

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Speaker 2: Oh interesting, do you live anywhere near a coast?

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Speaker 3: I don't, Well, I do.

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Speaker 4: But it's very funny because my husband was like making

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Speaker 4: fun of me for being afraid of tsunamis. He was like,

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Speaker 4: a Tsunami's never gonna happen in LA And then I

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Speaker 4: was like, John, there's literally tsunami warning signs that we

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Speaker 4: walk by, Like.

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Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, no, you all might have a tsunami. You

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Speaker 2: probably won't.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Like there's signs that say leaving tsunami zone.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like earthquake and fire are more immediate concerns, but like, definitely,

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Speaker 2: you're not out of the tsunami woods.

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Speaker 3: I'm one mile from the ocean. Yeah, that's as close

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Speaker 3: as I'll get.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I have reoccurring I don't even want to say nightmares,

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Speaker 2: but dreams about tsunamis, or specifically I would have called

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Speaker 2: them tidal waves when I was a kid. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: Like I have like dreams about like being kind of

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Speaker 2: near the ocean and then like usually I'm either like

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Speaker 2: watching the wave come and just being like, well I

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Speaker 2: had a good run, or I like am in a

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Speaker 2: house and I like the house gets like under the

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Speaker 2: wave and then I just have to keep moving up

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Speaker 2: and up and up in the house. I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I think that mine came. My fear around this came

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Speaker 4: from some movie I saw that had like this intense

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Speaker 4: opening scene of like a whole community in the tsunami. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's like those images just like all over.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. No, it makes sense. And if you lived where

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Speaker 2: folks lived in Japan, which I can't remember the name

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Speaker 2: of the town right now because that's not the script

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Speaker 2: I'm reading from right now. But they, the folks at

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Speaker 2: Bethel House, came up with a plan first just for themselves.

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Speaker 2: They have all these community houses of people who are

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Speaker 2: you know, mental and sometimes physically disabled, and they're like, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: how will we take care of ourselves and each other?

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Speaker 2: And so they came up with this plan about how

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Speaker 2: to know exactly who had what needs and how to

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Speaker 2: get everyone up the mountain and take care of people right.

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Speaker 2: And so then they started working with the city council

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Speaker 2: around that plan and it got enacted town wide, and

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Speaker 2: then it served as the model for Japan's official disaster preparedness,

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Speaker 2: specifically to include disabled people.

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Speaker 4: That's amazing because that's a huge issue. I mean, I

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Speaker 4: know in our country, but I assume around the world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, especially when you're like an island nation, you know, Oh,

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Speaker 2: but there's disability and preparedness. Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Like there's just like there's no plan and we

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Speaker 4: saw that, like have huge ramifications with the LA fires. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: and it's people don't take into account disabled people in

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Speaker 4: like any aspect of society really.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And I would meet a lot of people

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Speaker 2: who are like, oh, I you know I have trouble walking,

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Speaker 2: or I have the following needs or you know, I

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Speaker 2: need a thyroid pill every day, So like I'm not

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Speaker 2: even going to bother preparing. But then after that, I

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Speaker 2: would start meeting people in the disability preparedness community, and

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Speaker 2: I realize that the way that folks have been organizing,

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Speaker 2: they don't have anything to learn from us. We have

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Speaker 2: a lot to learn from them. Absolutely, the like actual

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Speaker 2: mutual aid communities that people have built because they they

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Speaker 2: need to, Like who better to learn from than people

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Speaker 2: for whom preparedness is required for them to interact with

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Speaker 2: the ablest world that's around them, you know. And that's

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Speaker 2: a theme we're going to continue to explore this week,

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Speaker 2: not specifically, does it. I love talking about preparedness, So

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Speaker 2: that's the angle I use for that particular part of it.

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Speaker 2: But instead that you know, this isn't about like, oh,

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Speaker 2: we help take care of those poor people, but instead like, oh,

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Speaker 2: people are doing amazing stuff. In the book Storming, Bedlam, Madness, Utopia,

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Speaker 2: and Revolt by Sasha Warren, the author states quote, we

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Speaker 2: have grown accustomed to reading about asylum psychiatry as the

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Speaker 2: project of states seeking new, subtler means of social control. However,

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Speaker 2: at its points of origin in France and England, psychiatry

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Speaker 2: was among the most radical and promising of the reform

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Speaker 2: movements that proliferated during the Industrial and French revolutions. Unlike

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Speaker 2: the reformers opening prisons or schools, its founders were motivated

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Speaker 2: by a revolutionary approach to sociability that resembled nothing so

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Speaker 2: closely as the socialist utopias of Robert Owen and Charles

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Speaker 2: fay Fourier. I don't know pronounce the guy's name is

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Speaker 2: probably British, so they probably pronounced all the letters, to

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Speaker 2: continue the quote. In the early nineteenth century, psychiatrists in

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Speaker 2: the moral treatment movement championed a therapeutic model that not

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Speaker 2: only acted as if the mad person was human, but

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Speaker 2: that in the best environmental and architectural conditions, immersed in

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Speaker 2: a consciously and collectively organized social world, engaged in meaningful

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Speaker 2: reproductive labour in common, the asylum could prefigure a more

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Speaker 2: perfect world for all.

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Speaker 3: That's a very different understanding of what mental institutions have

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Speaker 3: been in America.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is not me being like obviously institutions have

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Speaker 2: been a positive force in society, you know.

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Speaker 4: Like, but I was thinking about what you were saying earlier.

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Speaker 4: I have a master's in psychology and do a lot

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Speaker 4: in the mental health field. And one of the things

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Speaker 4: I love the most learning in school that like we

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Speaker 4: learn like I don't know, my first semester was that

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Speaker 4: the client is the expert in their own life. Yeah, totally,

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Speaker 4: And so many clinicians, I feel like, don't operate under

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Speaker 4: that model. Yeah, but they know themselves better than will

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Speaker 4: ever know them, and their context and their resources and

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Speaker 4: their capacities.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the things I loved about the Bethelhouse

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Speaker 2: group in particular was that the self study thing that

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Speaker 2: they promoted wasn't just it was it starts from the

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Speaker 2: position of like, Okay, this is your lived experience that

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Speaker 2: you know it better than I ever will. But then

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Speaker 2: it was like, all right, and so here's tools to

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Speaker 2: like systematize that and introduce it into the scientific method

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Speaker 2: and like build collectively knowledge. So it's not just you're

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Speaker 2: not just the expert on your own version of this suffering,

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Speaker 2: but you're able to become the expert along with other

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Speaker 2: people who deal with it of like the problem itself.

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Speaker 2: You know. I love that. So the place that I'm

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Speaker 2: going to describe this week, I was thinking about this.

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Speaker 2: I was just on the phone with my friend. Like

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Speaker 2: one of the things I do before I record, as

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Speaker 2: I usually call one of my friends and kind of

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Speaker 2: just like tell the story to them really quickly, like

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Speaker 2: so that I find the parts that I'm the most

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Speaker 2: excited about, right, the parts that make me start talking

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Speaker 2: really fast and getting really excited. And one of the

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Speaker 2: things I was talking about with my friend was that

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Speaker 2: it's like, I'm going to describe a place in one

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Speaker 2: of the worst possible environments, which is France under a

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Speaker 2: Nazi occupation, in a place of people who are being eugenicized, right,

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Speaker 2: Like nazis not famously very good on mental health, and

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Speaker 2: yet there are elements of this thing that I'm describing

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Speaker 2: where I suspect that, like some people would be happier

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Speaker 2: there than they are now because of community. I'm not

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Speaker 2: trying to be like it's good, actually right, But there's

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Speaker 2: a thing that comes up a lot. Rebecca Soulnet writes

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Speaker 2: about this a lot, about like the surprising utopia that

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Speaker 2: comes up during disaster and crisis because people actually have

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Speaker 2: meaning and work together.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I one of my professors said something. You know,

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Speaker 4: I was like, how are we ever going to like

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Speaker 4: address climate change? You know, like are we ever going

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Speaker 4: to like get our stuff together? But he was like,

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Speaker 4: what we need is like a common enemy. He was like,

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Speaker 4: we would need like to have aliens for like humans

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Speaker 4: to start to see humans as the as the tribe

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Speaker 4: rather than these like smaller sections.

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Speaker 2: And I hope dearly that that is not right. That

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Speaker 2: is my dearest hope is that we can finally see

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Speaker 2: that like people are people and you know.

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Speaker 3: Without the aliens coming.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know what, we can all unite against advertising.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, here they are.

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Speaker 2: And we're back. Boy. I sure am willing to set

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Speaker 2: aside all my differences in order to support all of

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Speaker 2: the advertisers who on that it's a positive version. All

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Speaker 2: of the advertisers are so great. I love all of them. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: where better to start a story about people seeking a

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Speaker 2: better world? For all than Catalonia, the occupied region of

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Speaker 2: Spain that continues to fight for autonomy and independence to

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Speaker 2: this day. We're going to start our story with our

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Speaker 2: main protagonist this week is a man named Francois to

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Speaker 2: Scaus sometimes france Esque to Scaus Francesque is the Catalan

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Speaker 2: version of the same name, and so even though he's

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Speaker 2: mostly remembered as Francois in history books and stuff, he

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Speaker 2: was pretty into being Catalan. So I'm going to mostly

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Speaker 2: use france Esque throughout. I'm guessing he preferred the name,

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Speaker 2: but I don't know. I actually think he kind of

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Speaker 2: didn't care. That's what I mostly think.

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Speaker 3: Why do you think that?

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Speaker 2: Because he was really into being a refugee, He was

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Speaker 2: really into the idea. He actually he has all these

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Speaker 2: quotes about like making people work to understand you because

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Speaker 2: you're speaking their language in an accented way. Creates a

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Speaker 2: more real connection with people because they actually have to

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Speaker 2: think about what you say. And he's like really into

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Speaker 2: like the primary right under all other rights is the

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Speaker 2: right to roam, the right to be in different places.

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Speaker 3: Oh that's beautiful.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I really like him. I like kept waiting

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Speaker 2: for the like turn where he was like actually bad.

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Speaker 2: But I have found it. This is like one of

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Speaker 2: the most unabashedly like and we at some point you

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Speaker 2: should look up a photo of him. He's just this

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Speaker 2: is a kind of like round faced man who's bawling

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Speaker 2: up top and has a mustache and glasses and like

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Speaker 2: he's so sweet looking. I don't know whatever. Anyway, I love.

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Speaker 4: I love when there's one person where you'd like you

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Speaker 4: just get to the end of their whole biography and you're.

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Speaker 3: Like, that was okay, I get into it. I didn't

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Speaker 3: freak out at one point.

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Speaker 1: I know.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure he did something bad. I haven't found it yet,

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Speaker 2: and I have read a bunch of different people's takes

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Speaker 2: on it. A lot of the writing about him is

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Speaker 2: trapped behind my lack of speaking French. Oh yeah, but

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Speaker 2: I found everything I could, and I auto translated some

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Speaker 2: other stuff. I don't rely on auto translations for anything

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Speaker 2: besides like background material or like just like trying to

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Speaker 2: get context on someone, like some minor character where there's

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Speaker 2: like a you know, article about them in Castilian but

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Speaker 2: not in English or whatever.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: So Francesque Toscaeus was born in nineteen twelve in Catalonia

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Speaker 2: in a city called Ruiz, and I'm usually when I

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Speaker 2: mispronounced things that are French, I'm like, yeah, I don't

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Speaker 2: really care. I'm genuinely sorry. I'm gonna mispronounce all the

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Speaker 2: Catalan in this piece, but I'm going to his parents

379
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Speaker 2: at least later. Run a Haberdashy so selling sewing supplies.

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Speaker 2: I believe I always thought Haberdashy was a hat maker,

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Speaker 2: but it's not.

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Speaker 4: It's it's like definitely a word I've heard, but I

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Speaker 4: don't think I ever had any idea what it meant.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I just assumed it was a hat maker. I

385
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Speaker 2: have no idea why I thought that, and then I

386
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:36,679
Speaker 2: looked it up and it was like, it is not.

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Speaker 2: It is a sewing shop. I also think that they're

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Speaker 2: like selling made things like dresses and things, but I'm

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Speaker 2: not entirely certain, which would actually put them in a

390
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,439
Speaker 2: really cool lineage with like a bunch of other really

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Speaker 2: cool There's been like a bunch of dressmakers within radical

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Speaker 2: history that I've covered before in the show.

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Speaker 3: That's so cool. I wonder what that's about.

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Speaker 2: I know, I think, okay, I think part of it

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Speaker 2: is that a lot of women who are independent end

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Speaker 2: up political radicals. And if you're in the nineteenth century

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Speaker 2: and you're an independent woman and you need enough money

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Speaker 2: to raise your family, you might become a dressmaker.

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Speaker 3: You know that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Lucy Parsons was a dressmaker, and she's one of the reasons.

401
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:18,919
Speaker 2: The death of her husband is the reason we have

402
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,560
Speaker 2: like May Day, the celebration of the first of May

403
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Speaker 2: as a labor holiday, and that was the very first

404
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Speaker 2: episode of this show. If you want to hear me

405
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:28,480
Speaker 2: talk about Haymarket.

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Speaker 3: That's so cool. Do you celebrate it every May First?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

408
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Speaker 1: No?

409
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,960
Speaker 2: Yeah? Actually May Day is like the anarchists and like

410
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,840
Speaker 2: a lot of other political radicals will have big events

411
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Speaker 2: on May First and have like usually I really like

412
00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,360
Speaker 2: it because it's our day of like picnics and stuff.

413
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,159
Speaker 2: Usually we all get together because we're like protesting, and

414
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,200
Speaker 2: sometimes we do on May Day, but more often than

415
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Speaker 2: that we just like have like fucking games and like

416
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,720
Speaker 2: people like give readings and that's so lovely. Last year,

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Speaker 2: I think I spoke at the the student occupation in

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Speaker 2: Chapel Hill about the history of May Day, and I

419
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Speaker 2: don't know, I like May First. Okay, So his family

420
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,760
Speaker 2: are a Narcos syndicalists, which is a powerful social movement

421
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Speaker 2: at the time in Spain, especially in Catalonia, and anarcosynticalists

422
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,760
Speaker 2: fight for a socialist society without the state or hierarchy.

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Speaker 2: It's possible that his grandparents were an arcosyndicalust too, and

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Speaker 2: maybe their parents before them. I don't know. I just

425
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Speaker 2: know that there were a lot of multi generational anarchist

426
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,359
Speaker 2: families at that time and place, which I find really cool.

427
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Speaker 2: I have read. This is not the most important thing

428
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Speaker 2: about this man, but it is a thing I spent

429
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Speaker 2: no small amount of time trying to figure out. I

430
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 2: have read an incredible number of conflicting reports about him

431
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:47,479
Speaker 2: specifically and how he grew up and what his political

432
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,639
Speaker 2: affiliation was. He was either an anti authoritarian communist like

433
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,160
Speaker 2: a Marxist who doesn't like Stalin, which is a very

434
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 2: reasonable position, or he was an anarchist communist or an

435
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 2: archosyndicalist or whatever. I can promise you he's cool either way.

436
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,200
Speaker 2: I couldn't promise you exactly how he identified.

437
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 3: We know he wasn't fiscally conservative.

438
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 2: Yeah totally. Yeah. He wasn't a big fan of Stalin

439
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 2: or other dictators. Yeah, yeah, Okay, he was one of

440
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 2: those kids who grew up knowing exactly what he wanted

441
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 2: to do. He wanted to be a psychiatrist, and he

442
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 2: wanted to destroy capitalism. Those are his things. Starting at

443
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,679
Speaker 2: the age of seven, he went with his father to

444
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 2: learn about psychiatry from the nearby Paramatta Institute. I am

445
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 2: uncertain exactly how the seven year old ends up going

446
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,680
Speaker 2: to the psychiatric institution to learn. I don't know whether

447
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 2: the dad was a patient. I don't believe the dad

448
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 2: was a doctor, but I'm not sure. I think he

449
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 2: was just indulging his kids' interests.

450
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe like the apprenticeship approach or something.

451
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 2: Well, I do know that either by fifteen he started

452
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 2: studying medicine more formally, or that he graduated college at fifteen.

453
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 2: I've read both, all right, So it might be that

454
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,879
Speaker 2: he graduated college at fifteen and then entered med school.

455
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 2: I again read a bunch of conflicting things about this man.

456
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 2: And he grew up speaking Cottalan, which is a different

457
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,919
Speaker 2: language than Spanish Castilian. I learned this by showing up

458
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 2: in Barcelona and being like, I know a little bit

459
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 2: of Spanish, and people were like, we don't fucking speak

460
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 2: Spanish and I'm like, ah shit uh. For his entire

461
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 2: life he refused to learn to speak Castilian Spanish. Well,

462
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 2: he was Cottalan. The Spanish were the oppressors. But he

463
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 2: also wasn't like he was like chill about it. He

464
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 2: wasn't like, I hate everyone who is Spanish. He just

465
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 2: didn't like the Spanish government. He was, as you might

466
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 2: have guessed, wildly political. He joined a clandestine communist organization,

467
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 2: the BOC, the Workers and Peasants Block, which was the

468
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 2: clandestine wing the larger Catalan Balaria Communist Federation. The Balaric

469
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 2: Islands are islands off the coast of Catalonia, and this

470
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,439
Speaker 2: federation had both anarchists and communists in it. There's a

471
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 2: lot of historical getting along and not getting along between

472
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 2: those groups. This particular communist federation worked alongside the anarchists

473
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 2: of the CNTFIA. I know that that's alphabet soup as fuck,

474
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 2: and normally I try to kind of gloss over the

475
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 2: alphabet soup shit. It's kind of my niche interest, but

476
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 2: it does not need to be yours or the listeners.

477
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 2: But the way that these groups relate is going to

478
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 2: affect his life and the outcome of what happens because

479
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 2: he broke with Stalinism. He broke with Stalinism early on.

480
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 2: Stalin tried to get the Communist Federation that he was

481
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 2: part of to go to Madrid and do communist propaganda

482
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 2: in Castilian and so Francescan. A few friends wrote Stalin,

483
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,879
Speaker 2: which is a fucking that's a brave move. Yeah, this

484
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 2: man does not put up with people who disagree with him.

485
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 2: The federation itself was afraid to write Stalin back. So

486
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 2: he just wrote Stalin back.

487
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 3: That's amazing.

488
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 2: I know he's like twenty two, and he's like, I

489
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 2: disagree with this man.

490
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 3: Well maybe that's why.

491
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, you're twenty two.

492
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 3: You're like, I'll write a letter to anyone.

493
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:22,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. So he writes Stalin back and he's like,

494
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 2: you obviously don't know I'm paraphrasing here. You obviously don't

495
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 2: know shit about Spain. We're not going to go and

496
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 2: say all power to the Soviets in Madrid. We don't

497
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 2: have Soviets, which is the name for like a specific

498
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 2: style of like a workers council, Okay, and we're definitely

499
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 2: not going to go and speak Castilian in Madrid. That

500
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 2: is the oppressor's language. We're not doing that for you, buddy.

501
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 2: By nineteen thirty five, when he's twenty three or so,

502
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 2: he's now working at the Paramatta Institute, the place he'd

503
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 2: been going ever since he was little. So he like

504
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 2: he had a fucking plan, and he fucking followed the plan.

505
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. He's learning under a bunch of refuees who

506
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 2: have fled Nazism from Austria and Germany, and he helped start.

507
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 2: I know you wanted another acronym, so here's another acronym,

508
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 2: the POME, the POUM, the Worker's Party of Marxist Unification,

509
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 2: which were basically the communists who don't like Stalin and

510
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 2: were down to work and the broader left, including with anarchists.

511
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 2: And he wrote about and I just like this part

512
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:26,919
Speaker 2: because women are written out of history, so I have

513
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 2: to like go and find the places that where they're

514
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 2: not written out of history. And props to this man.

515
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 2: Women are written out of the story, but not by him.

516
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 2: He tried to include women in this story whenever possible.

517
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 2: So he wrote about how within his clandestine group there

518
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 2: was a specific women's liberation movement that was sex positive.

519
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 2: He said that there was a quote group of women

520
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 2: who talked about sex and the freedom to get laid.

521
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 2: It was a kind of women's liberation front made up

522
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 2: of anarchists women or anarchists from the block Block being

523
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 2: the group. The political situation in Spain is complicated at

524
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 2: this point in history. This is not a thing that

525
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 2: I don't think Americans get end up learning about in school.

526
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 2: But if you listen to this podcast regularly, you've heard

527
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 2: me do like eight episodes about this fucking thing. Spain

528
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 2: had been a monarchy for a long ass time, starting

529
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 2: in the nineteen thirties, they're like nineteen thirty one or so,

530
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 2: it became a republic. It was not a very stable

531
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 2: republic because the far right and the far left kept

532
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,400
Speaker 2: trying to take it over. The far right kept trying

533
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 2: to take it over. The far left actually, rather than

534
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 2: trying to take it over, kept kind of trying to

535
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 2: declare independence. Like basically anarcho syndicalists who would bake up

536
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 2: the vast majority of some town in a rural area

537
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 2: would be like, we're done with the state. We're putting

538
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 2: up our black and red flag. We're now an independent

539
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 2: Anarcho syndicalists commune kind of like the money Python sketch,

540
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 2: and they just like kept doing this over and over

541
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 2: again and forcing the state to come put them down.

542
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 2: Then in already six three white right wing generals who

543
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 2: were all white, were like, we should stage a coup.

544
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 2: There's a reason I'm talking about this today. I think

545
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 2: the Spanish Civil War is unfortunately wildly relevant to the

546
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 2: American audience right now. They're like, we're going to stage

547
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 2: a coup. Two of those three generals, they're all like,

548
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 2: we're gonna do this together. And then two of them

549
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 2: die mysteriously in plane crashes.

550
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 4: Oh my god, as will happen when you're having get

551
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,959
Speaker 4: a conspiracy with other evil people.

552
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 2: I know, I wish it'd have been leftists who did that.

553
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 2: I assume. I assume Franco took them out. I don't know.

554
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 2: Maybe it was literally a coincidence that two of the

555
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 2: is probably not a coincidence. And so the third general,

556
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 2: Francisco Franco, he basically invades his own country. He has

557
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 2: an army in North Africa and he shows up and

558
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 2: he's like, I'm fucking taken over Spain. He has this

559
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 2: famous quote, I am willing to kill one half of

560
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 2: country to rule the other half of the country.

561
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 3: Yep, I see why that feels very relevant right now?

562
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, Lord. His coup failed in large part

563
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 2: due to the organizing of the far left, especially in

564
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 2: Barcelona and Catalonia in general. Barcelona's the capital of Catalonia.

565
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 2: In Barcelona, anarchists and cops, an unlikely alliance that no

566
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 2: one wants to talk about, huh, fought off the fascists,

567
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 2: and so they show up and they're like, we're just

568
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 2: going to roll in and take over, and instead people

569
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 2: are like, we're gonna shoot you if you do that.

570
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 2: And the coup was defeated, but a civil war broke

571
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 2: out instead, And if you're playing cool people bingo, check

572
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 2: off the basically free square in the middle. Margaret talks

573
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 2: about the Spanish Civil War because that's what we're gonna do.

574
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 2: But don't worry if you're playing cool people bingo. There

575
00:30:55,880 --> 00:31:00,040
Speaker 2: will be tuberculosis later in this episode, because that's the

576
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 2: other thing that somehow comes up all the time in.

577
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 4: History, well as John Green's latest book, Everything Is Tuberculosis.

578
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 2: Yes, no, I haven't read it yet, but like, tuberculosis

579
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 2: has been a running theme and I'm just like, I

580
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 2: didn't expect it when I first started doing this show, Like, oh,

581
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 2: if you read about the nineteenth century and you read

582
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 2: about radicals, they either get killed by the state or

583
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 2: they die of tuberculosis. That's like kind of it.

584
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 4: Wow, I mean I always that's always like in all

585
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 4: the movies, whenever a character like coughs into a handkerchief

586
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 4: and there's blood, that's tuberculosis, right.

587
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's actually tied into like there's

588
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 2: really cool at ways. It's tied into the show before too,

589
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 2: where like the Young Lords were this Puerto Rican independence

590
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 2: radical group that's kind of parallel to the Black Panthers

591
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 2: in the late sixties early seventies, And one of the

592
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 2: things that they would do in New York is that

593
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 2: the Puerto Rican communities they were part of were under

594
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 2: like no one was screening them for tuberculosis, but like

595
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 2: white neighborhoods were getting this like tuberculosis, We're going around

596
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,959
Speaker 2: in X raying people. And so they just hijacked one

597
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 2: of those vans and they brought it to their neighborhood

598
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 2: and the people working in the van were like sweet

599
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 2: fuck yeah, Like they're not mad, They're like, I want

600
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 2: to go where help. You know, you don't become a

601
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 2: tuberculosis ambulance driver because you because you just only want

602
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 2: to help rich people, you know.

603
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 3: I love that.

604
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the Civil War breaks out and the Marxists

605
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: and the anarchists. I'm going to separate Marxists from communists

606
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 2: like the Stalinists, right, The Marxists and the Anarchists form

607
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 2: militias and they rush off to the front and they

608
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 2: stop the fascists from sweeping across the country. The POM,

609
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 2: which our guy Francesca is part of. They are mostly

610
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 2: famous in history because this is the group that the

611
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 2: young George Orwell came down and joined.

612
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 3: Oh wow, yeah, that's cool.

613
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 2: We have a whole like two parter about him. It's

614
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 2: always funny when right wing politicians try to cite Orwell

615
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 2: right because Orwell literally went to Spain to throw grenades

616
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 2: at fascists and his opinions about fascists never changed ever.

617
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 3: People quote him from the right wing.

618
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, because he also was, like I'm gonna put this

619
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,719
Speaker 2: in air quotes. He was anti communist in that he

620
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 2: was anti the USSR's regime, the dictatorial regime. He was

621
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 2: an anti authoritarian, and he was a socialist and like

622
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,719
Speaker 2: kind of a democrat, you know, And so he didn't

623
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 2: like Stalinists because they, well, I'll get to what happened

624
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 2: to Orwell with the Stalinists. And a little bit, so

625
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 2: Orwell comes down and he joins the poom and he

626
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 2: throws grenades at fascists, so young French esque. He rushes

627
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 2: off to the front with everybody else, desperate to stop

628
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 2: Catalonia from falling to the fascists. Meanwhile, the anarchists take

629
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 2: control of most of Catalonia and create a non hierarchical

630
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 2: society within the Spanish Republic. I am uncertain if Francesca

631
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 2: ever took up arms. I'm guessing not. I think basically,

632
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 2: since he was a doctor, he's doing doctor stuff right away, right,

633
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 2: which is absolutely just as important. But most of what

634
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 2: I found out about his life is in French, so

635
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 2: I don't have all of the details of this period,

636
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 2: but I do know that soon enough or right away,

637
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 2: he starts doing psychiatry at the front lines, like three

638
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 2: kilometers from the actual front. Wow, he's really interested in

639
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 2: what happens during war. I'm just going to read this

640
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 2: quote because I find it interesting. Quote. Science is a

641
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,359
Speaker 2: behavioral disorder for some people who become obsessed with it.

642
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 2: They want to control everything through science. War is uncontrollable.

643
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 2: But as the surrealists would say, exquisite corpses appear, that

644
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 2: is to say, the unexpected free association, which are not

645
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 2: pure fancy. They are more real than the real. And

646
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 2: so he's kind of just like into the strange case.

647
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 2: I don't think he's like pro it, but he's like

648
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 2: interested in the strange chaotic formations that happen that are

649
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,800
Speaker 2: outside what you can like assume you can just control.

650
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 4: Well, it's also so interesting I find like the difference

651
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 4: of how people act by themselves and how they act

652
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 4: when they're in a group totally, because it's.

653
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,720
Speaker 3: Really drastically different. Dolphin.

654
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:25,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, absolutely, Like groups have their own characters and

655
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 2: psychoses and like issues, which is prescient. That's going to

656
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 2: tie into the style of psychotherapy that he develops. Oh

657
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 2: but you know what he didn't develop, You know what

658
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 2: only came later.

659
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 3: Ads?

660
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 2: Well, ads themselves probably already existed, but these ads in

661
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 2: particular probably weren't around during the Spanish Civil War, and

662
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 2: if they were, they were probably for very different things.

663
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 2: But time always changes, and these are the ads that

664
00:35:54,160 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 2: we have here, they are and we're back. So we

665
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 2: didn't have the word PTSD back then. Well, it's not

666
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 2: a word, it's a Oh, it's not even an acronym.

667
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 2: I will probably die still calling a series of letters

668
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:14,720
Speaker 2: an acronym, even if it doesn't spell anything.

669
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 3: But oh, an acronym has to be a word.

670
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, according to Pendence and maybe people who are correct,

671
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 2: but I'm just going to call it an acronym or whatever.

672
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 2: No one had PTSD back then. In World War One

673
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 2: in English, you would have called it shell shock. Francesque

674
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 2: called it being war neurotic, and he developed a lot

675
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,399
Speaker 2: of ideas about how to treat war neurotics, and as

676
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 2: far as I can tell, he was pretty effective. He wrote,

677
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 2: and this is a bit of a confusing translation. It

678
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,240
Speaker 2: wasn't a machine translation, but it just isn't perfect. He wrote, quote,

679
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 2: if you sent a war neurotic one hundred and fifty

680
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 2: kilometers from the front line, you make it a chronic case.

681
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 2: You can only treat him near the family where the

682
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 2: troubles occurred. And I just think family is like nonsory

683
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 2: the but the source right interesting, you're saying you got

684
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 2: to you gotta do it where it happens.

685
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's like debate around like how quickly to offer

686
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 4: mental health services after like a big trauma.

687
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 2: Ooh interesting, you know, like some.

688
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,439
Speaker 4: Like big natural disaster or something, and like sometimes doing

689
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 4: it right away can be helpful, but sometimes it can

690
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 4: actually be damaging, and so there's like not a clear

691
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 4: way to address it.

692
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's just like he's exploring, He's like, how

693
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 2: the hell do I save all of these people?

694
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: You know?

695
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, And soon enough he becomes the chief physician for

696
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 2: the Army psychiatric services, not just for the POME like

697
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,879
Speaker 2: the militia that he's part of, but the entire Republican Army,

698
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 2: like the entire Spanish army. Right, oh wow, And did

699
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 2: you know that I'm in my forties and have been

700
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: a professional writer for a decade and I still cannot

701
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:57,919
Speaker 2: spell physician or psychiatric.

702
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 4: I have a master's degree in psychology and I can't

703
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 4: spell psychiatric.

704
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, it's hard. It's a hard one.

705
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 3: I can't do it.

706
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 2: It's weird because I'd be like I could probably spell psychology.

707
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 3: Sometimes I can't. Yeah, it's really embarrassing.

708
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 2: It's terrible. I'm you know, always say I hate the

709
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 2: bourgeoisie because I can't spell him. And so he starts

710
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 2: setting up not just one clinic, but just like all

711
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 2: of the clinics, right, And his whole thing is that

712
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 2: he believes in the idea that the place matters, and

713
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 2: that the character of the place is part of the cure,

714
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,720
Speaker 2: and the community matters and is part of the cure,

715
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 2: and that people psychiatric needs are sort of a community

716
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 2: problem with community solutions. So he starts setting up all

717
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 2: of these clinics and helping people care for people, and

718
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 2: he doesn't pick the caregivers, the psychiatric nurses and stuff

719
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 2: from psychiatrists because he's like he kind of hates doctors

720
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 2: and psychiatrists his whole life. He specifically is like psychiatrists

721
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 2: and doctors have a fear of madness, is what he

722
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:08,720
Speaker 2: keeps saying.

723
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 3: That's so true.

724
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, that feels like very insightful in a lot of

725
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,839
Speaker 4: ways because it doesn't follow the certain rules of like

726
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 4: you know, tuberculosis or right, it manifests so differently.

727
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, which is like it gets out of his

728
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 2: quote about like war is not you can't science it,

729
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 2: you can't math it, you know, I mean there's math involved,

730
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 2: but like mostly with artillery. And so when he's picking

731
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 2: psychiatric nurses and psychiatric care and he's teaching all along,

732
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 2: he's very into like breaking walls and like teaching psychiatric

733
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 2: methods to everyone he can. He picks. One of the

734
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 2: groups he picks is lawyers who are afraid to go

735
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 2: pick up a gun but still care about the cause,

736
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 2: which is really relatable. He also picks like literary scholars

737
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 2: and painters and musicians and shit. And he also picks

738
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 2: priests and nuns, and there's like whole convents that get

739
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 2: turned into psychiatric care facilities. And he also picks sex workers.

740
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,240
Speaker 2: I believe brothels were illegal in Spain in the Spanish

741
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 2: Republic and probably in the monarchy before that, but the

742
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 2: anarchists controlled regions legalize sex work and just and allowed

743
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 2: this cool thing where they set up the Syndicate La Moore,

744
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 2: the Union of Love, in which sex workers were protected

745
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 2: legally and allowed them to set their own rates. But

746
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 2: when he's setting it up as psychiatric care facilities, he's like,

747
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,280
Speaker 2: all right, no one knows these men better than the

748
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 2: women who sleep with them. And there are women fighting

749
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 2: in the militias as well, but they're not the majority

750
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 2: of the units, so the brothels can stay open. Three

751
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 2: or four workers there will get trained as psychiatric nurses

752
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 2: and they're not allowed to sleep with the people who

753
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 2: are their psychiatric clients, you know. But they are like

754
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 2: not like told that they can't work that way anymore

755
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 2: or something like that, right, they're just like, oh, you

756
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 2: can't sleep with these people because you're there like therapist.

757
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 2: You know, this is brilliant.

758
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 3: I know, I know, I really love it.

759
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,800
Speaker 2: I know. I was like, this story has radical nuns,

760
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 2: it has sex workers.

761
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 4: It has like, well, I imagine sex workers deal with a

762
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 4: lot of people's mental health yas they're various issues.

763
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, they do, that is and I mean literally their

764
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 2: safety depends on understanding the mental health of their clients

765
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 2: and things like that too.

766
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 1: You know.

767
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 3: That's so true.

768
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 2: And the inclusion of priests and nuns in this part

769
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 2: is also really interesting because there's a lot of right

770
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 2: wing rhetoric around the Spanish Civil War, especially after Franco

771
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 2: wins spoiler alert, Spain falls to fascism for most of

772
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 2: the twentieth century. They basically claim that the leftists, especially

773
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 2: the anarchists, just run around and killed all the priests

774
00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:00,040
Speaker 2: and nuns that they just like slaughtered them all. So

775
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 2: the left wing position is, no, we didn't do that,

776
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,320
Speaker 2: but we killed a lot of fascist priests because a

777
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,399
Speaker 2: lot of the priests in a given small town would

778
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:12,760
Speaker 2: be basically elements of the fascist state, which is true.

779
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 2: But I also suspect that there was a lot of

780
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 2: war crimes. There's a war, there's war crimes. People are

781
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:22,359
Speaker 2: going to do absolutely terrible things. But there's also this

782
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 2: thing where like when you read a like leftist history,

783
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 2: they never want to admit that there's like rad Christians

784
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 2: and rad religious people, you know, really so the priests

785
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,959
Speaker 2: and nuns, not never, but especially specifically communist stuff again

786
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,959
Speaker 2: with capital C communism or whatever. And then in Spain

787
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 2: it's a particularly complicated thing because Franco was a Catholic fascist.

788
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 2: Like Franco is actually honestly a closer comparison to modern

789
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 2: Christian nationalism because it was specifically Christian in nature. Franco

790
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 2: is specifically Catholic in nature, although he actually resisted the

791
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 2: Catholic Church a lot. But that's besides the point.

792
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 3: Well, he can't have anyone have control over him.

793
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 2: No exactly. Actually that was the thing is that the

794
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 2: Pope was like, well, I get to control who's you know,

795
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 2: your bishops and stuff, because I'm the pope, And Franco

796
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 2: was like, no, I get to control because I'm the

797
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 2: fascist dictator anyway, So things didn't stay rosy during the war.

798
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 2: War is never rosy. It's actually just really bad. By

799
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty seven, Stalin tried taking over the left in Spain. Basically,

800
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 2: he was like, I'm in charge of all of this.

801
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,839
Speaker 2: You need to come under my command or I'll kill you,

802
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 2: all right, to all of this, like diverse groups of

803
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 2: people of different like Marxist and anarchists and all these

804
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 2: people who are doing all this other stuff and are

805
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 2: the people who had stopped the fascists. We've covered this

806
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 2: a lot in other episodes. But soon enough he's sending

807
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 2: secret police from Russia to Spain to round up all

808
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 2: the anti Stalinists and kind of a prequel to the

809
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 2: Great Purge he started doing in Russia the next year,

810
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,840
Speaker 2: in nineteen thirty eight. Ironically, most of the people that

811
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 2: Stalin sent to go torture and disappear leftists in Spain

812
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 2: themselves got tortured and disappeared by Stalin like a year later,

813
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:14,240
Speaker 2: isn't that wild?

814
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, how that just seems to always happen.

815
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, the leopards eating the face party does yep? Uh huh.

816
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 2: I always like shitting on Stalin, but I am not

817
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 2: including this just to shit on him.

818
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:27,919
Speaker 1: More.

819
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 2: It is important to understanding france Esque's character and his

820
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,439
Speaker 2: therapy and his ideas, to understand that he was someone

821
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 2: who lived through occupation after occupation, through one authoritarian regime

822
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 2: after another, from Stalin coming and saying like I am

823
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 2: in charge of all of the left, to Franco and

824
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 2: then to the Vichy France and the Nazi controlling of France.

825
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 2: The POM, the group that he was part of, was

826
00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 2: specifically singled out for abuse by the Stalinists. Important POME

827
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 2: leaders were being disappeared and tortured. So George Orwell, right,

828
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 2: he's off at the front. His wife is here too,

829
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 2: and she's just like left out of all the history

830
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 2: books too, and it's really fucking annoying. And she's like

831
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 2: doing a lot of important work, just like not at

832
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 2: the front with a rifle or whatever. You know, God forbid.

833
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 2: So George Orwell, who wasn't shitty to his wife about this?

834
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 2: It's just historians who are. He gets shot through the

835
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 2: neck by a fascist right while he's fighting at the front,

836
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 2: and then he goes and he survives that, and he's

837
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 2: recovering at a hospital, and while he's recovering, the Stalinists

838
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 2: basically declare war on the Pome that he's fighting with,

839
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 2: and there's a warrant out for his arrest, and so

840
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 2: his wife helps smuggle him out of the country under

841
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 2: an assumed name, and the two of them leave Spain.

842
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 2: And this is why Orwell became a leftist anti communist

843
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 2: because yep, they tried to kill him after he had

844
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 2: taken a bullet through the neck fighting fascism.

845
00:45:55,680 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 4: It's almost like, when you're any type of extreme you

846
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 4: lose sight.

847
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 3: Of the plot.

848
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:06,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, Yeah, just fucking authoritarianism will when you think

849
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 2: that you are so right that everyone has to do

850
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 2: what you say. You know, yep, and so Orwell wasn't

851
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 2: the only PUH militant whose wife smuggled him too safety.

852
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 2: Enter Helene Tuscaus Francesque's wife who was Spanish and not Catalan.

853
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 2: She's practically not in the story at first until you

854
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 2: look really hard to find her in the story. Why

855
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 2: would you include women when you write history. I can't imagine. Fortunately,

856
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 2: did you know, Alison Raskin that women can write for themselves?

857
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 4: I keep hiring someone to do it for me. I

858
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 4: had no idea.

859
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,359
Speaker 2: Okay, what's funny about this is right after I came out,

860
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 2: I got hired to write male point of view romance

861
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:59,800
Speaker 2: as a ghost writer. And so I think that secretly

862
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 2: at least one male name was secretly a woman writing it.

863
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 2: But like I suspect that it's more common in the

864
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 2: romance field than anyone will. I don't want to name names.

865
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 2: Yeah I have.

866
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,399
Speaker 4: I don't even know if I know of like any

867
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 4: male romance writers really.

868
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:18,919
Speaker 2: Yeah.

869
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:19,879
Speaker 1: Yeah.

870
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 2: As soon as I came out, they were like, can

871
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 2: you write male romance? And I was like, god damn it.

872
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 2: I was like, I mean, in a weird way, I'm

873
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 2: in like a really good position to do it because

874
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, I kind of understand the male point

875
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 2: of view, like you know, I got exposed to it

876
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:33,840
Speaker 2: a lot. Yeah.

877
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:34,959
Speaker 3: Locker room talk.

878
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, actually no, locker room talk has always avoided me.

879
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 2: I think men have always known I'm not a safe

880
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,399
Speaker 2: person to say that shit around, not even because I've

881
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 2: been like a fiery feminist, but just because like no

882
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 2: one's ever mistaken me as one of the boys, like

883
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,240
Speaker 2: that is not a thing that has ever happened.

884
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 3: To me, and you aren't, So yeah, you know.

885
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,800
Speaker 2: I absolutely spent gym class sitting in the corner painting

886
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 2: my nails with the other goth girls, and no one

887
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:05,879
Speaker 2: knew why I was there, including me, but it made

888
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:11,720
Speaker 2: more sense. So I was able to find some letters

889
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:16,759
Speaker 2: written by Marie Rose Riba, which is his daughter, and

890
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 2: shout out to the author Ben Platts Mills, who was

891
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:23,239
Speaker 2: the one who wrote her and published her letters. Will

892
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,439
Speaker 2: Francesca was at the front. Helene and his daughter Mary

893
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:31,839
Speaker 2: Rose lived with his parents in their haberdashing and life

894
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 2: during wartime fucking sucked, whether you're at the front or not.

895
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:38,959
Speaker 2: Rus the town whose name I can pronounce, was under

896
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,839
Speaker 2: a blockade and supplies were short. The family got by

897
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 2: by selling what she sewed and selling off what she

898
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 2: accumulated in her life, like basically all of the stuff

899
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 2: of their life. She is just like slowly selling in

900
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 2: order so that she and her kid can eat. She

901
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 2: would also sneak out across the blockade to a small

902
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 2: village in the hinterlands because she had connection there with

903
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 2: the local priests, because the brother of the chaplain of

904
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 2: Paramatta Institute, where her husband worked, he lived there, and

905
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 2: the priest would give her supplies to smuggle back into Ruis. Or,

906
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 2: as her daughter put it, Helene came back to her

907
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 2: in laws loaded like a mule, and so she's smuggling

908
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 2: food in past the blockades from the fascists. As the

909
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 2: fascist bombed Rues, they would regularly take farm at a

910
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,280
Speaker 2: refuge one hundred kilometers away, and there's all these heartbreaking

911
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 2: stories about like the mom is like traveling there with

912
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 2: her like three year old daughter and is like seen

913
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 2: orphan kids by the side of the road, and she's

914
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 2: like terrified she's going to lose her kid. And you know,

915
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 2: it's a like war actually just sucks. You know, we

916
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 2: should avoid it whenever possible. The best efforts of the

917
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:50,959
Speaker 2: Spanish Republic were not enough to hold back the tide

918
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,799
Speaker 2: of fascism. It's hard to say whether or not they

919
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 2: could have succeeded if Stalin hadn't betrayed the fight in

920
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:58,720
Speaker 2: the middle of it. But one thing that is certain

921
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:02,280
Speaker 2: an ties into the story is that the ostensibly leftist

922
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 2: government of France. They're run by the Popular Front at

923
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 2: this point, which is this idea that comes up a

924
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 2: lot that isn't a bad plan, which is basically like,

925
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 2: when your country is falling to fascism, all of the

926
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 2: electoral people who are left of fascist form the Popular

927
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 2: Front party and they're like, look, just vote for not

928
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 2: fascist it. Yeah, and it also doesn't even mean vote

929
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 2: for the most watered down democrat or whatever. It literally

930
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 2: means like Democrats voting for socialists, socialist voting for communists,

931
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:39,240
Speaker 2: communist voting for Democrats, Like it means like whoever's running,

932
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 2: if they're not a fascist, radical left or center left,

933
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 2: you're voting for them. In that time, But there was

934
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 2: a Popular Front in Spain that is like how they

935
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 2: ended up with the republic right. There was a Popular

936
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 2: Front in France that was how they didn't fall electorally

937
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 2: to fascism. Later they're going to actually, both popular fronts

938
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 2: fell militarily to fascism. It's almost like when they don't

939
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 2: get their way, they pull out guns. Uh huh. Yeah.

940
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 4: This is a scary time, both the story you're telling

941
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 4: and the one that we're living through.

942
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:18,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the Popular Front government of France did nothing

943
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 2: to help Spain. And this is a big sticking point

944
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 2: and problem in history. Basically, the Western governments like the

945
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 2: UK and France were like, you know, all, we're gonna

946
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 2: sit this one out, and they actually specifically set up

947
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 2: a blockade that no war materials was allowed to go

948
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:37,880
Speaker 2: to either side, which sounds fair, but it's not. It

949
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:40,799
Speaker 2: cripples the left, not the right, because the right is

950
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:44,800
Speaker 2: getting their war material from Germany and Italy. And also,

951
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 2: this is why Stalin had such an outsized impact is

952
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 2: there actually weren't really many communists or Stalinists in Spain.

953
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 2: It was mostly sort of social democrats and anarchists in

954
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,360
Speaker 2: Spain at the time. But Stalin was like, yo, I

955
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:00,399
Speaker 2: got tanks and shit, and people were like, all right,

956
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 2: we fucking need him, you know. So the Popular Front

957
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,839
Speaker 2: of France did nothing to fucking help Spain. Neither did

958
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:11,240
Speaker 2: the UK. The great leftist powers just let Spain fall,

959
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 2: despite the best efforts of a lot of anti fascist

960
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:17,800
Speaker 2: volunteers from those countries and other countries, including the first

961
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,720
Speaker 2: black man to command a mixed white and black troops

962
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 2: in an American unit, came from the US and fought

963
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 2: in the Spanish Civil war, and like there's like all

964
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 2: kinds of stories of just amazing volunteers. As Franco's forces

965
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:38,880
Speaker 2: swept across the country, the retreat the Ritarata began. Three

966
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 2: hundred thousand civilians and two hundred thousand militants escaped across

967
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 2: the border into France. Helene didn't go with Franchesc at first,

968
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 2: since she wasn't in immediate danger. There was a death

969
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:55,880
Speaker 2: warrant out for him because he'd been a high up

970
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:59,400
Speaker 2: person on the anti fascist side, right, So Franco's like,

971
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 2: am owe you, and he's like, I think I'm gonna

972
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 2: leave the country now. It's it's been pleasant, but I

973
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:08,840
Speaker 2: gotta go. So Helene doesn't go at first. He's to

974
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 2: go first and figure out the plan, like Okay, where

975
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 2: are we gonna go when we get there, and then

976
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 2: send her a signal to come herself with their daughter.

977
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:20,560
Speaker 2: So Francesque and a friend crossed the highest point of

978
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 2: the Pyrenees mountains because fascists were bombarding the route that

979
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:26,920
Speaker 2: most people were using to escape. Like again, this is

980
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 2: just how fucking like when he said I'm willing to

981
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:30,920
Speaker 2: kill half a Spain to rule the other half, he

982
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 2: meant it like everyone trying to leave the country, They're

983
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 2: like not even trying to fight him anymore. He's like,

984
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:38,879
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna blow up all of them. Fuck them.

985
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:40,360
Speaker 1: So.

986
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 2: Francesque's daughter Mary Rose relates the following story that her

987
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 2: mother told about her father when he crosses into France.

988
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 2: Quote a gold bracelet that she had sewn into the

989
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 2: lining of his coat so that he could sell it

990
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:58,359
Speaker 2: for his needs. He asked the first shepherd he found,

991
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 2: what is that worth? Nothing? Was the reply. So here,

992
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 2: my dad said, and he gave the bracelet to the shepherd.

993
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 3: Isn't it Like I try to understand like what that means.

994
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:14,360
Speaker 2: I know, I know, I think there's like a couple

995
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:16,800
Speaker 2: of things going on with it. I think on some level,

996
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:20,320
Speaker 2: he's like it's possible that gold is like lost value.

997
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:23,799
Speaker 2: Everyone escaping is just like, oh I brought gold with me,

998
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 2: and everyone's like, yeah, it isn't fucking worth anything here.

999
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 2: But also he's just like, all right, or you're a shepherd,

1000
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 2: you want this fucking gold thing. Like he's also just

1001
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:33,880
Speaker 2: like like I think he's like kind of just being nice,

1002
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 2: but he's also maybe a little bit like ah, fuck my,

1003
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:39,240
Speaker 2: Like you know, I guess I got nothing.

1004
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:45,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, because do you think he believes the shepherd? Yeah, totally, okay, okay,

1005
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 4: But I also like, I'm sure on some level he

1006
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 4: knows that gold has value. So it's like, I think

1007
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:53,319
Speaker 4: it's also being presented as a like altruistic moment from

1008
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 4: her father, but I I'm not one hundred percent certain.

1009
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 3: It's a very confusing story in some ways.

1010
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 2: It really is. So when he's still in the mountains,

1011
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:05,880
Speaker 2: a monastery in France takes him and his friend in

1012
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 2: and cares for their feet. I don't know the direct trends.

1013
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 2: It says phrases like cared for their feet. I don't know,

1014
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:14,479
Speaker 2: it's bandage, and I'm washed them if they wash their feet.

1015
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:17,479
Speaker 2: It's literally the most Jesusy thing you can do. It's

1016
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:21,480
Speaker 2: literally there's a thing about washing people's feet. And then

1017
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:23,879
Speaker 2: he comes down out of the mountains and a cop

1018
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 2: basically is like, all right, you got two options. You

1019
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:29,360
Speaker 2: can go to the Foreign Legion, or you can report

1020
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 2: to Septfords, a concentration camp that's been set up for refugees,

1021
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 2: And so he and his friend go to Septfords, the

1022
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:40,919
Speaker 2: concentration camp before Nazis and their death camp's concentration camp

1023
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 2: had a different connotation. It was not a good connotation,

1024
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 2: but it wasn't quite the same. It's not a death camp.

1025
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:50,360
Speaker 2: A lot of people die there, but that's not the

1026
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:53,279
Speaker 2: point of it, right. It's when you just concentrate a

1027
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:55,720
Speaker 2: bunch of people in a camp, usually refugees or whatever,

1028
00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:02,120
Speaker 2: like we have in the United States right now, Septs fawns.

1029
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:05,359
Speaker 2: This concentration camp was set up in February nineteen thirty

1030
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:09,320
Speaker 2: nine to house Spanish Republicans and German Jews. It was

1031
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:11,840
Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty five acres that had been sheep

1032
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:15,840
Speaker 2: grazing land. There were fifty kilometers of barbed wire fences.

1033
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 2: There was electric fences. There were watch towers and spotlights.

1034
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:22,759
Speaker 2: There were a thousand soldiers serving as guards, not to

1035
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:26,759
Speaker 2: keep the prisoners safe, but to keep them prisoners. There

1036
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 2: was an infirmary, and there was a prison. The whole

1037
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:32,360
Speaker 2: thing is a prison, but there's a prison within the prison. Wow.

1038
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:36,360
Speaker 2: There's no running water, there's no heat, there's no electricity.

1039
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 2: People slept on haystacks, Mud and sand were everywhere. One

1040
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:45,840
Speaker 2: inmate wrote, I felt like crying to dry the ink

1041
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:50,759
Speaker 2: with which I am writing for tears have turned to sand.

1042
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:52,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, devastating.

1043
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 2: I will say, whenever I read like shit from one

1044
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 2: hundred years ago, I'm like, man, the average person knew

1045
00:56:59,040 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 2: how to fucking write.

1046
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 3: Like It's so true, because like, yeah.

1047
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 2: That's how you fucking communicate, like letters and shit. You know.

1048
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:09,319
Speaker 4: I also just wonder if like our a lot of

1049
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:13,919
Speaker 4: our like current vocabulary just doesn't feel like it has

1050
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 4: the same hift as like the common language back then.

1051
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 2: Oh my god, it might be that way. Like one

1052
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 2: hundred years from now, people are going to be like,

1053
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 2: oh wow, they used like all the time and their sentences,

1054
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 2: and they talked about how things were based. Isn't that

1055
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:29,360
Speaker 2: beautiful base?

1056
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 4: I mean, like, but maybe right, yeah, no, no, you're

1057
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 4: probably right.

1058
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 2: Like cooked, why do they call things cooked? That's such

1059
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 2: an interesting metaphor. Soon enough, this camp needed a cemetery too.

1060
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 2: At least eighty one people died there, many by suicide,

1061
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 2: and inmates of the camp were forced to work for

1062
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 2: the war effort as manual labor, so this world renowned.

1063
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:59,440
Speaker 2: At this point. Psychiatrist Francesco Toscaeus is in the camp,

1064
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:03,480
Speaker 2: and he immediately sets to work building up a psychiatric

1065
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 2: facility in the camp.

1066
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 4: I love this guy. He is like the energizer bunny.

1067
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:13,040
Speaker 4: He just doesn't care where he is. He is setting

1068
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:14,720
Speaker 4: up a psychiatrist camp.

1069
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:20,400
Speaker 2: Yep, exactly. He gets permission from the warden. The warden

1070
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 2: probably didn't give him permission to do everything he did

1071
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 2: in a psychiatric care facility though, like help people escape

1072
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 2: the camp. And while he was there he hit upon

1073
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:35,280
Speaker 2: this realization that's like sort of obvious in retrospect, although

1074
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:38,520
Speaker 2: it has not been fully incorporated into modern psychiatric facilities.

1075
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 2: Keeping people in captivity is really bad for their mental health,

1076
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 2: whether it's a prison, a concentration camp, or an asylum.

1077
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:49,720
Speaker 2: And he says all the time he's only there for

1078
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 2: like six months or maybe even less. He says all

1079
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:54,919
Speaker 2: the time that he did some of his best work

1080
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 2: in that camp as a therapist. I've read three different

1081
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:01,000
Speaker 2: accounts of how he got out. One was that the

1082
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:03,320
Speaker 2: camp was liberated. I think that the count is just wrong.

1083
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:05,760
Speaker 2: The camp was liberated in nineteen forty four from the Nazis.

1084
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 2: I have not found no collaborating evidence that it was

1085
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 2: a corroborating whatever corroborating that it was liberated prior to that.

1086
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:19,960
Speaker 2: One account is that he himself escaped, which is entirely possible.

1087
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:23,840
Speaker 2: He was helping people escape, he certainly could have. And

1088
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 2: one that I find the most likely, which is that

1089
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 2: someone from a nearby asylum was like, hey, uh, can

1090
00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:32,040
Speaker 2: we have that guy? Though he's like good at this stuff,

1091
00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:36,120
Speaker 2: he got poached. Yeah, yeah, he got poached. Yeah the

1092
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:43,320
Speaker 2: job hunters, headhunters, whatever, the uea either way. On January sixth,

1093
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:47,560
Speaker 2: nineteen forty, he arrives at Saint Alban, a tiny town

1094
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:50,959
Speaker 2: with a mental asylum. Sant Alban is in luz Are,

1095
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:54,040
Speaker 2: the least populated part of France, up in the mountains.

1096
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:57,080
Speaker 2: It's kind of south central. If you imagine a map.

1097
00:59:56,880 --> 01:00:00,520
Speaker 4: Of France, I'll be honest, I can't. Yeah, fair enough,

1098
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:02,240
Speaker 4: I don't know what Edny Country looks like.

1099
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, France is kind of a big, almost square blob

1100
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 2: with some things sticking out of various sides. Okay, just

1101
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 2: in the middle of the bottom in the mountains. Almost

1102
01:00:14,040 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 2: every version of this story that I read, I read

1103
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 2: like seven different accounts of this thing, and they were

1104
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 2: all like, when he shows up, that place is a

1105
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 2: dirty shitthole and everything sucks and it's overcrowded. You will

1106
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:32,920
Speaker 2: be shocked to know this has never happened before. This

1107
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 2: erases the work of a woman who came before him

1108
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 2: and set things in motion that he just picked up on.

1109
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 4: Well, history does love to repeat itself, as does leaving

1110
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:45,800
Speaker 4: women out of history.

1111
01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:48,360
Speaker 2: I know. And one of the things that I find

1112
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:50,959
Speaker 2: that's fascinating is whenever I read about these like early

1113
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:55,480
Speaker 2: twentieth century men, they're usually not the ones writing women

1114
01:00:55,520 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 2: out of the story. It's the historians who are obsessed

1115
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:01,480
Speaker 2: with great men, like quote unquote great men of history,

1116
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 2: at least on the left, who are like passibly feminist,

1117
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 2: are passibly feminist, and they like care about shit, and

1118
01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:09,600
Speaker 2: they're like, no, I'm part of a big thing where

1119
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 2: women are helping and that absolutely support women, you know.

1120
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 2: But then the people who are obsessed with great men

1121
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 2: are like this man so good. I don't know why

1122
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:19,440
Speaker 2: they have that voice, but that's what they sound like.

1123
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:23,680
Speaker 4: Well it makes sense, right, because the people that are

1124
01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:26,360
Speaker 4: working with those women probably really.

1125
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:27,640
Speaker 3: Appreciated their work.

1126
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:30,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, yep, and in their head they couldn't write them

1127
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:33,400
Speaker 4: out of the story because of how much they were

1128
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:33,920
Speaker 4: a part of it.

1129
01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So there was this woman named Agnes Masson

1130
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:43,240
Speaker 2: she's Italian, but she fled Italy because she was anti fascist,

1131
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 2: like literally her passport application or her like naturalization papers

1132
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:50,640
Speaker 2: or whatever. In nineteen twenty seven says like reason for leaving,

1133
01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:54,320
Speaker 2: and it's like not compatible with the current administration of

1134
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:58,040
Speaker 2: Italy or whatever, because Italy's under Mussolini at this point.

1135
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 3: That's such a great line to put that everywhere. Not

1136
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:03,160
Speaker 3: compatible with the current administration.

1137
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:04,400
Speaker 2: Yet totally.

1138
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:06,960
Speaker 3: We should make t shirts.

1139
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:14,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. And she is the first woman to direct

1140
01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 2: a French psychiatric hospital, so imagine leaving her out of

1141
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:21,000
Speaker 2: the fucking story. From nineteen thirty three to nineteen thirty six,

1142
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:26,520
Speaker 2: she ran San alban She started the long, slow work

1143
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:30,240
Speaker 2: of turning the place around. And what she did, both

1144
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:32,600
Speaker 2: of these people did amazing work. What she did was

1145
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:37,480
Speaker 2: like physical infrastructure. She hooked up water and electricity, she

1146
01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 2: set up like central heating. Is like I think it's

1147
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:43,400
Speaker 2: a castle. Like I don't think it's a huge castle,

1148
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:47,400
Speaker 2: but it's a castle, you know. She ends solitary confinement,

1149
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:50,000
Speaker 2: and she ends the use of straight jackets, and the

1150
01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:52,800
Speaker 2: way the way she convinces there's like there's nuns who

1151
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:55,600
Speaker 2: work there, right, the way she convinces the nuns that

1152
01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:58,600
Speaker 2: they're going to stop using straight jackets rules. She takes

1153
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:01,040
Speaker 2: one of the head nuns and she's like, I'm just

1154
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:04,080
Speaker 2: gonna leave you in a straight jacket overnight, and then

1155
01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:06,560
Speaker 2: like the next day she's like, so, what do you

1156
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:08,000
Speaker 2: think straight jackets?

1157
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:09,000
Speaker 1: Yeah? Your nay?

1158
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:12,600
Speaker 2: How you feeling on them? And they're like, all right,

1159
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:14,400
Speaker 2: no more fucking straight jackets.

1160
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:16,520
Speaker 3: Brilliant technique.

1161
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:20,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. She also adds a library to the place, and

1162
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:24,320
Speaker 2: later she moves on to another institution and she stays

1163
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:29,000
Speaker 2: rad and like she continues to also revolutionize psychiatric care

1164
01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:31,000
Speaker 2: in France, But why would anyone talk about her even

1165
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:33,240
Speaker 2: though she did it like five places instead of just one.

1166
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:38,400
Speaker 2: She started at another institution and she started organizing social

1167
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:41,240
Speaker 2: events that brought people from outside the asylum into the

1168
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:44,080
Speaker 2: asylum for like dances and shit, so that they were

1169
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:46,640
Speaker 2: part of society of the town that they were part of.

1170
01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:50,560
Speaker 2: And this was a scandal in the press and the government.

1171
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:52,560
Speaker 2: So the government was going to fire her, but the

1172
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:54,520
Speaker 2: patient stuck up for her and she got to keep

1173
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:58,640
Speaker 2: her job for a while. And she also started letting

1174
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 2: patients know that how long were going to be held,

1175
01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:03,520
Speaker 2: that the facility was up to the patient themselves. She'd

1176
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:06,000
Speaker 2: be like, all right, how long should you be here?

1177
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:06,640
Speaker 1: Like?

1178
01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:10,080
Speaker 2: What do you need? You know, she's cool. Eventually she

1179
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:12,920
Speaker 2: does get fired. She moves from place to place, I

1180
01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:15,480
Speaker 2: think partly because people keep running her out, and then

1181
01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:17,840
Speaker 2: eventually she's not able to find work anymore because she's

1182
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:21,680
Speaker 2: too based eh based eh. People in the future, that's

1183
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:24,520
Speaker 2: like me saying, uh, oh, now I can't come up

1184
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:25,800
Speaker 2: with the old timey word.

1185
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:29,800
Speaker 3: Oh well, we'll think of subthing. Yeah.

1186
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:33,320
Speaker 2: And so it's this legacy of improvement in anti fascism

1187
01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:38,760
Speaker 2: and refuge genius that Toscaus walks into. And how the

1188
01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:42,960
Speaker 2: patients and the doctors then create a secret society to

1189
01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:46,920
Speaker 2: fuel anti fascist partisan resistance to the Nazis and reinvent

1190
01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:51,160
Speaker 2: medical care for the mentally ill. We'll talk about on Wednesday.

1191
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:53,040
Speaker 2: That's my cliffhanger.

1192
01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:54,960
Speaker 3: It's a good one.

1193
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:58,240
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. Anyway, how are you feeling about

1194
01:04:58,280 --> 01:04:58,680
Speaker 2: this so far?

1195
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:02,840
Speaker 4: I'm energize and excited. I think this is so awesome,

1196
01:05:03,360 --> 01:05:05,280
Speaker 4: and sometimes it just sucks to think about all the

1197
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:08,280
Speaker 4: things that could have caught on. I know right that

1198
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:10,520
Speaker 4: it's not that the thing didn't ever exist. It's like

1199
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:12,920
Speaker 4: it was there, we just didn't run with it the

1200
01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:14,440
Speaker 4: way we ran with the worst option.

1201
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 2: I know. It just like this doesn't specifically make money

1202
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:22,280
Speaker 2: for private institutions. Like I am guessing that that's the

1203
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:25,880
Speaker 2: majority of the fucking difference. But I don't know. Maybe

1204
01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:28,200
Speaker 2: that's maybe that's the wrong kind of cynical. Maybe it's

1205
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:29,560
Speaker 2: some other terrible reason instead.

1206
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:33,120
Speaker 4: I'm sure there's a lot of stigma around these people,

1207
01:05:33,640 --> 01:05:36,840
Speaker 4: you know, back then, totally of just like not being

1208
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:40,720
Speaker 4: willing to view them as you know, autonomous human beings

1209
01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:42,240
Speaker 4: who should be involved in their care.

1210
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:47,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. People want really really hard to other mentally ill

1211
01:05:47,040 --> 01:05:50,040
Speaker 2: people because they want to really really hard thing that

1212
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:52,720
Speaker 2: could never be them. It's so much like homelessness. You know.

1213
01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:56,160
Speaker 2: It's like you thinking the same thing. Yeah, yeah, like, ah,

1214
01:05:56,200 --> 01:05:58,439
Speaker 2: it can never be me. Whatever happens that person doesn't

1215
01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:01,840
Speaker 2: matter because that's totally not me because I have a

1216
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:04,959
Speaker 2: paycheck coming up, like you know, Like.

1217
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:07,520
Speaker 4: And I think that's like the mentality that is like

1218
01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:11,360
Speaker 4: what arrived us at Trump is like people thinking that

1219
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:14,560
Speaker 4: anyone that is suffering in this country deserves it because

1220
01:06:14,600 --> 01:06:17,840
Speaker 4: they've done something wrong. Yeah, Rather than that the entire

1221
01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:19,280
Speaker 4: system is rigged against all.

1222
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:22,000
Speaker 2: Of us totally. The number of people who are just like,

1223
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:25,600
Speaker 2: oh shit, I voted for Trump, but now ice is

1224
01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:28,040
Speaker 2: coming for someone I care about, or I lost my

1225
01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:31,480
Speaker 2: job in the federal government, or you know, there's no

1226
01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:33,880
Speaker 2: way I we wote afford anything as a tariffs or whatever. Like,

1227
01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:37,320
Speaker 2: And I don't even want to like pathologize or blame.

1228
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:40,440
Speaker 2: I'm not like super excited about people vote for Trump,

1229
01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:44,240
Speaker 2: but like, you know, it's like, all right, well, if

1230
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:46,920
Speaker 2: someone does a thing and then they learn their lesson,

1231
01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:49,440
Speaker 2: we got to let them learn their lesson, you know.

1232
01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:50,439
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1233
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:52,880
Speaker 4: And it also just like I think just like speaks

1234
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:56,760
Speaker 4: to how harmful that worldview is that like, you know,

1235
01:06:56,920 --> 01:07:00,560
Speaker 4: good people get rewarded, bad people get punished, and how

1236
01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:04,840
Speaker 4: like that's yeah, it's just not how society works.

1237
01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:11,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, But if people want to reward themselves by

1238
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:15,439
Speaker 2: getting a chance to read something that will let them

1239
01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:19,160
Speaker 2: think about romance and comedy, do you have any suggestions

1240
01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:21,120
Speaker 2: for them? You know what I do?

1241
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:25,000
Speaker 3: I would recommend that they check out my brand new rom.

1242
01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:29,760
Speaker 4: Com Save the Date, which is more calm than spicy

1243
01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:34,400
Speaker 4: for people who look if you're here for five chili peppers,

1244
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:36,520
Speaker 4: this isn't the book for you, But if you're here,

1245
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:41,680
Speaker 4: you know, to see someone fight against some ideas around

1246
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:45,920
Speaker 4: romance and marriage and sort of deal with her mental

1247
01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:49,840
Speaker 4: health along the way, then I recommend Save the Date.

1248
01:07:49,880 --> 01:07:51,680
Speaker 4: And it would mean a lot to me if you

1249
01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:54,480
Speaker 4: pre ordered it one day before it comes out.

1250
01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:57,920
Speaker 2: And for anyone who's like, I don't know, what's the

1251
01:07:57,920 --> 01:07:59,919
Speaker 2: point of pre ordering the day before it comes out,

1252
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:03,640
Speaker 2: it's worth knowing that preorders have a really disproportionate impact

1253
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:06,720
Speaker 2: on the sort of algorithms that shouldn't run our world,

1254
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:09,640
Speaker 2: because what that means is that you get this specific

1255
01:08:10,240 --> 01:08:15,240
Speaker 2: boost of sales at one moment, and like, you know, well,

1256
01:08:15,240 --> 01:08:17,800
Speaker 2: you're already a New York Times bestseller. But the best

1257
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:20,719
Speaker 2: chance to get to be that way is pre orders

1258
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:23,759
Speaker 2: buy and large for people. And so I would encourage

1259
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:26,400
Speaker 2: anyone who's excited about it to pre order it a

1260
01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:29,479
Speaker 2: day early. Uh what do I want to promote?

1261
01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:30,160
Speaker 1: I do?

1262
01:08:30,280 --> 01:08:33,080
Speaker 2: I just promise that I'm out of my book promotion cycle,

1263
01:08:33,200 --> 01:08:34,880
Speaker 2: but I do have a book coming out. It's kind

1264
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:38,000
Speaker 2: of the inverse of what Save the Data is. If

1265
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:41,479
Speaker 2: you are looking to escape by thinking about reflections on

1266
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:46,120
Speaker 2: death and magic, I have a book called The Immortal

1267
01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:49,519
Speaker 2: Choir Holds Every Voice that comes out from the anarchist

1268
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:51,880
Speaker 2: publishing collective Strangers in the Tangled Wilderness. I think it

1269
01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:54,479
Speaker 2: comes out June second, but you can preorder it if

1270
01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:56,800
Speaker 2: you miss the Kickstarter you can preorder it and all

1271
01:08:56,840 --> 01:09:00,479
Speaker 2: the pre orders through several places. I think AK and

1272
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:05,640
Speaker 2: Firestorm books and Strangers in Tangleolderness come with a signature

1273
01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:09,679
Speaker 2: in the book, so that's a bonus, and I will

1274
01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:12,519
Speaker 2: have to sit there and sign a whole stack of

1275
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:16,679
Speaker 2: stickers book plates. But worst problems have happened.

1276
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:21,320
Speaker 4: I had to make my signature my initials because my

1277
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:25,599
Speaker 4: actual signature is so illegible and ugly that I had

1278
01:09:25,640 --> 01:09:29,040
Speaker 4: to just like shift it into initials.

1279
01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:33,080
Speaker 2: It's a good move. I mine is largely illegible, but

1280
01:09:33,120 --> 01:09:34,680
Speaker 2: I start it with a heart and then the M

1281
01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:37,360
Speaker 2: is recognizable. That's like how I've always.

1282
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:38,000
Speaker 3: Oh that's nice.

1283
01:09:38,680 --> 01:09:43,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, we'll be back Wednesday, and with uplifting stories.

1284
01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:46,160
Speaker 2: This is genuinely one of my favorite stories, and it's oddly,

1285
01:09:46,520 --> 01:09:48,160
Speaker 2: even though it's taking place in one of the worst

1286
01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:50,640
Speaker 2: moments in human history, oddly uplifting. So I think you

1287
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:56,600
Speaker 2: all like it, and so We'll see you on Wednesday.

1288
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Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff a production of cool

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Speaker 1: Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit

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Speaker 1: our website foolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on

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Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple

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Speaker 2: Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts