1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: Body times with Joseph's Gotten More. I love language. I 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: love studying language. I guess you know. People have come 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: to me and they have asked me before, if you 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: weren't doing what you do or what you did, you know, emmy, 5 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: what would you what would you do otherwise? And it's like, 6 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: you know, I got to tell you. I you think. 7 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: When I was a little boy, I thought I wanted 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: to be an archaeologist, and then got older and I 9 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: thought I wanted to be a historian. And I suddenly 10 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,599 Speaker 1: came to my senses and realized that you could make 11 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: a living at it. But in the last few years, 12 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 1: I've gotten where I really and I'm such a nerd. 13 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: I really enjoy watching linguistic videos on YouTube. The reason 14 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: I enjoy it it combines history with language. And I 15 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: can't speak a foreign language. I know bits and pieces 16 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: of Spanish, a little bit of French, not much, but 17 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: I love to study origins. And today I wanted to 18 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:10,839 Speaker 1: throw a word out to you that has been used 19 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,919 Speaker 1: for years. As a matter of fact, the first time 20 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: that it actually entered in to our language sphere was 21 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: in the twelfth century. Actually in Middle English. The word 22 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: actually derives from an old English word, and since then 23 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: it has been used to describe things that are horrific, 24 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: things that most people would not expect to see. Certainly, 25 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: it generally involves blood. In particularly it involves death. That 26 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: word is grisly. I have trouble pronouncing that word many 27 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: times because I get it confused with grizzly. But for 28 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: a grizzly murder to take place, it has to be 29 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: blood saturated. And regarding the case we're going to talk 30 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: about today, that term continues to pop up in every 31 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: single article that I've come across. But here's the upside. 32 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: Today We're going to talk about a homicide, a very 33 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:34,119 Speaker 1: brutal homicide that was committed all the way back in 34 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two. And guess what I can sit here 35 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: today and say that they have finally made an arrest 36 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: in the case of Karen Stitt. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 37 00:02:52,639 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: and this is bodybags. Sometimes, Dave find I love language, 38 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: but sometimes as I move on down the line in life, 39 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 1: words fail me many times, And I don't know if 40 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: it's my memory or if I've got so much stuff 41 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: jammed into my attic. You know inside of my skull 42 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: that you know useless trivia. I think somebody told me, well, actually, 43 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: I think it was giming me. She said, you've gotten 44 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: more useless trivia jammed into your brain than anyone I 45 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: have ever met. I don't do well when we go 46 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: to trivia things, but lord, I love to have healthy 47 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: discussions about language, and about words and their origins and 48 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: and on body bags. I try to introduce people to 49 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: new terms that they might not be familiar with. I 50 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: think I've probably introduced you to a few along the way, 51 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: to your chagrin. Many times it's like, man, I wish 52 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,080 Speaker 1: you hadn't introduced me or expose me to this. But 53 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: you know, it's some words failure, you know, when you're 54 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,839 Speaker 1: trying to to describe something. And of course the case 55 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: that we're talking about today is absolutely brutal. 56 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 2: In this particular case, you know, we have a young 57 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 2: girl fifteen years old that is stabbed over fifty times 58 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 2: near a bus stop. It wasn't at the bus stop, 59 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 2: but it was close enough nearby where they knew that's 60 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 2: where she was headed. You would think with that type 61 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 2: of murder there would be plenty of evidence to solve this, 62 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,479 Speaker 2: but not. It didn't. I mean, here we are in 63 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 2: twenty twenty five and we're talking about this because they 64 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 2: finally have got an arrest. 65 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: The level of brutality here, I got to tell you, you know, 66 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 1: she and this would be this is my knee jerk reaction. 67 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 1: You know where I'm going to go with this. She 68 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: was going to visit her boyfriend. And what are we 69 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: seeing over and over and over again in all of 70 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: these cases that you and did you realize that we're 71 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: right on the cusp of hitting three hundred and eighty 72 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: episodes of Bodybags? It makes your head swim. That's like 73 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 1: an eye watering number in it. But we've been grinding, man, 74 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: So out of all of this time that you and 75 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,919 Speaker 1: I have spent in front of the microphone talking to 76 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: one another, there are certain things that we've imparted to 77 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: one another because of all these cases that we cover. 78 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: The one thread that runs through something like a case 79 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: like this, and we'll get into the level of violence here, 80 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: is that idea about intimates those people that are within 81 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 1: the circle. And you think about young Caring here fifteen 82 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 1: years old, man, fifteen years old, and she is literally 83 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:54,359 Speaker 1: ripped a shred and it's not like this, this was 84 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: in a place like a hidden place. Really, you know 85 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: what I'm saying. It's not like it was someplace that 86 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: where she's been taken off in the woods. We're talking 87 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: about an event that occurred one hundred yards away from 88 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: the bus stop. David, you know what this sounds like 89 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: to me? And that's why I would go as an investigator. 90 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 1: You know, got to tell you the boyfriend, his butt's 91 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 1: going in a seat and we're going to have a 92 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: long conversation. I know, the detectives would This sounds like 93 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: a reactionary kind of thing. You know, like something passed 94 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: between two people that were intimately involved with another and 95 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: I don't mean necessarily in a sexual sense, but that 96 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: had a relationship with one another. Something was said. Because 97 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: it takes it takes that kind of passion that you 98 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: find in amorous relationships in order to fuel this kind 99 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: of brutality. It's almost this is almost when I talk 100 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: about these injury he said, I'm going to talk about 101 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: in just a bit, it's it's animalistic, Okay. Because she 102 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:12,559 Speaker 1: has been assaulted so severely and in such a degrading way, 103 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: you have to think did this person know her? Because 104 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: would who in the world could be Dave this angry. 105 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 2: I just dumbfounded that a fifteen year old girl could 106 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 2: be raped and murdered and stab I mean, that's overkilled, 107 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 2: stabbing fifty times. Do we know we're I mean I 108 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 2: know when I tend to think about its stabbing, I 109 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 2: think about every one of them being a fatal strike, 110 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 2: and that's not the case. When you actually start breaking 111 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 2: that down, do you look at that which, Yeah, I 112 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 2: know you had to figure out which were the fatal wounds, 113 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 2: But can you determine when you've got that many the 114 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 2: order or the ones that could have caused her death 115 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 2: or is it a combination of all of them or 116 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 2: was there one strike? Can you tell with all the blood, 117 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 2: can you tell which one was last and which one 118 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 2: was first and whether it was live at the end. 119 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very difficult, particularly when you have this I'm 120 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: talking about in terms of forensic pathology. When you have 121 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: this astronomical number, this is not something you would normally see. Now. 122 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: I've I've had cases where I've had individuals that were stabbed. 123 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: I think the most I ever had was like two 124 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: hundred times, and the person was like ground beef afterwards, 125 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: and it was a lover's quarrel two dudes went at 126 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: each other. One of the other times in my career 127 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 1: where I actually slipped at the scene and fell into 128 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: blood because there was blood. It was like a river 129 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:44,559 Speaker 1: of blood that we were having to work this case 130 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: in had it happen there, and that I had a 131 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: mass shooting where I fell in the blood actually pulled 132 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: a groin muscle. It's those little things that you remember 133 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:57,559 Speaker 1: about cases like that. But that case where the individuals, 134 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: where the individuals stabbed like two times, that's an anomaly. 135 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: But you know, when you begin to think about fifty, 136 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: at some point in tom you're going to hit a 137 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: point where before and as well, probably well before you 138 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: get to fifty, where the individual will have ceased to 139 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: have been breathing. Kind of goes without saying, however, it's 140 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: important to understand when you talk about order, because that's 141 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: one of the big questions people always ask, right, they 142 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: want to know what order, What was the first the 143 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 1: first insult that was sustained. It's almost impossible to do, 144 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: particularly with these kinds of numbers. The best you can 145 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 1: do is say this is anti mortem and this is 146 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: post mortem, and the only delineation there is one will 147 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: have hemorrhage, and one want I'll give you a great example. 148 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 1: You go back to Jody Arius and Travis Alexander. Well, 149 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: she brutalized him and stabbed him so many times when 150 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: he was in the shower, continued to attack him and 151 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: he's trying to move away from her down that hallway. 152 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: Then I think she straddled his back, pulled his head 153 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: back by the forehead, and cut his throat. And then 154 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 1: it's like an afterthought, because that was one of the 155 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: big questions in this case. You know which came first, 156 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: and you think the back would travels Alexander because he's 157 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: in the shower those infamous photos. How can you forget 158 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: where he's looking over his shoulder and she begins to 159 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: hammer on him with his knife. The delineation in that 160 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 1: case was that he had a he had a gunshot 161 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: wound that she had inflicted upon him. I think it 162 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: was the left a Ford parietal area or the left 163 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: temple and it went diagonally across his head and lodged low. 164 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: There was no there was no hem in that one track. 165 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: So after all she had done to him, she said, well, yeah, 166 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: I think I'll just pop a round off into his 167 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: head while I'm at it, and there was no man. 168 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: So the best we can do most of the time, Dave, 169 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: unless you have an eyewitness, the best you can do 170 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: is to say this is either in the anti mortem 171 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:23,839 Speaker 1: state or the post mortem state. But I do know this, 172 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: while this crime was being perpetrated within one hundred yards 173 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: of a bus stop, this killer was leaving behind information 174 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: with each swing and each thrust of that blade that 175 00:11:44,000 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: would eventually, all these decades later end in him being convicted. Okay, 176 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:09,359 Speaker 1: let's set the scene here. This is in September, Palo Alto, California. 177 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: We're probably I've never been to Palo Alto, but I 178 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: get the impression that Palo Alto would not exist if 179 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,199 Speaker 1: Stanford University was not there. Probably it would be kind 180 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: of a you know, an afterthought. It would be a tiny, 181 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: little little town. But because Stanford is there, it you know, 182 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,079 Speaker 1: it's the hub that draws everything in. And of course, 183 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: now you look at Palo Alto and Silicon Valley and 184 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: all of that, isn't that amazing You look at the 185 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: history of that location that all the stuff is built 186 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: up around it as a result of it. But you've 187 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: got this young girl that is found, according to what 188 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: we are understanding, is found adjacent to or leaning up 189 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 1: against a cinder block wall. Now they don't go in 190 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: great detail about the nature of how she was found 191 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:02,359 Speaker 1: positionality of the body, but it is kind of implied 192 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: in some of my readings that she was essentially seated 193 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: against it or lying against it. Immediately adjacent there would 194 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 1: have been David got to tell you, there would have 195 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 1: been a tremendous amount of blood at the scene. And 196 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: it's one thing to see blood in a house, but 197 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: there's something about seeing it in the daylight when you're 198 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: outside and you've got natural light to expose everything and 199 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 1: something this horrific. Those kind of cases for me, like 200 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: even cases I had where people took their own lives 201 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: with like shotguns and that sort of thing. Outside it 202 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: was always more striking to me for some reason than 203 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 1: being inside. I think a lot of it has to 204 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,319 Speaker 1: do with the way I view things and how I 205 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 1: see it, and particularly it's natural light. It's hard to 206 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: escape natural light, and so when it's on full view. 207 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: Those cops that would have shown up at that scene 208 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 1: back in eighty two, they would have drawn on a 209 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: brows day. 210 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 2: So he's looking at that because her home was in 211 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 2: Palo Alto and this was in Sunny Vale, nine miles 212 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 2: to the south. And I'm thinking about the scene that 213 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 2: you were talking about it being daytime when they actually, 214 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 2: you know, find the next morning. And I was thinking, Okay, well, 215 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 2: let's assume, and I think we can because she was 216 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 2: going to catch the bus around midnight and sometime between 217 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 2: the time she was going to catch that bus and 218 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 2: the time her body was found. This murder takes place 219 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 2: in the dark behind a cinderblock wall. It might have 220 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 2: seemed like a private place to carry out this horrific 221 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 2: but during the daylight, where you can see everything, that 222 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 2: would be the shocking to me. It'd be like, how 223 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 2: did you get away with it? It was dark, nobody 224 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 2: could see, and behind that wall, you've got traffic, you 225 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 2: got a lot going on hand over the mouth, and 226 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 2: you know, you've got control of the city situation. So 227 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 2: in the daytime, you would see it for everything that's 228 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 2: out there, every place somebody should have looked, could have seen. 229 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 2: My time, you can't see that, or you don't look 230 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 2: that far off the road. I mean, if you're talking 231 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 2: fifty to one hundred yards away from a bus stop, 232 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 2: area behind a wall. That tells me a lot. It 233 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 2: tells me. It does kind of surprise me that it 234 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 2: happened the way it did because of the fact that 235 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 2: it was at a bus stop or near a bus stop, 236 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 2: you would think somebody else would have been there, you know. 237 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 2: I guess that's what I keep wondering. Where was the 238 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 2: help with investigators, because you said that when they got there, 239 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 2: they would have taken a step back, they would have 240 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 2: been shot with it. 241 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, they would have. They would have drawn a breath. 242 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: And here's a couple of things that you know, I 243 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: haven't quite revealed yet that I want to, you know, 244 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: kind of tell you about. First off, it's a bit 245 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: more than fifty it's right at about fifty nine. Okay, 246 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: sharp force ND injuries that you sustained, and there's some 247 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: that are that are very very critical here and we 248 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: can get into that. But let's let's revisit the scene. 249 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: You know, it was when she's visiting her boyfriend who's seventeen. 250 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: He had a curfew, all right, and he had actually 251 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: stated at that time when they interviewed him that because 252 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: of the late hour, he was worried about being grounded 253 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: from missing his midnight curfew, so he headed home after 254 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: he essentially walked her towards the bus stop. So somebody 255 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: was there lurking in the shadows, and this brick wall, 256 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: this center block wall, which by the way, would wind 257 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: up effectively being stained with her blood. And they're saying that, 258 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: you know that relative to the center block wall, that 259 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: it was a tremendous man of blood that was there. 260 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: Somebody would have been off the beaten path, maybe in 261 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 1: a darkened area, watching her. And you know, I don't 262 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: know that she was specifically targeted. He may this perpetrator 263 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 1: may very well have been trying all day long or 264 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: all evening long, just to find a female that would 265 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 1: satisfy his desires at that point, Tom and here comes 266 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: this fifteen year old, and let's let's just think about 267 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: you know what it's like to be a fifteen year 268 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 1: old and you're you know, you're out there in the world, 269 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: particularly back during this day and a I mean that 270 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: particular time in history. You know, when you saw an 271 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: adult and they give you some kind of directive or 272 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: they're speaking to you, they're not generally going to be 273 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 1: dismissed if he calls her over and all it takes 274 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,400 Speaker 1: is she's fifteen, she's there by herself, it's at midnight, 275 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: and he calls her over, you know, and might say, 276 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: you need to look out. There's there's people lurking about here. 277 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: You need to be safe. And she's distracted because she's 278 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: looking around. He grabs her and then he begins to 279 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 1: assault her. But he moved her away from the bus 280 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: stop over one hundred yards. The question or close to 281 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: one hundred yards. The question is did he lure her, 282 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: did he force her at the end of a knife 283 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 1: to walk over there? Did he just pick her up 284 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: and towed her off if you will? You know, who 285 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: knows exactly how she was tempted to go over there. 286 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: But the next morning, when the police arrived, they saw 287 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: something quite interesting in the dirt. And this is something 288 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: we really haven't talked talked much about on bodybacks during 289 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 1: you know, in any of our coverages. When they got there, 290 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 1: one of the things that they determined was that there 291 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: the dirt and the leaves had been kicked around that 292 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: area had been moved, so you have like scuff marks 293 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: in the dirt, any kind of debris that's on the 294 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: ground has been moved. About what that tells you is 295 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: is that when that got over to the wall, Because 296 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 1: my impression is this is immediately adjacent the wall. She's 297 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 1: alive when she gets there, and that fits into our time, 298 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 1: you know, when you're trying to understand the dynamics of 299 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: how she gets from the bus stop to that wall. 300 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 1: Was she still walking toward the bus stop and he 301 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: grabs her and pulls her in behind the wall, or 302 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: did he lure her from the bus stop? And those 303 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:47,120 Speaker 1: are certainly things to be taken into consideration. I got 304 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: to tell you if you're you know, one of the 305 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 1: things that you would do. First off, if they noticed 306 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: that there were scuff marks and prints in that dirt, 307 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: you have to assume that the purpose trader would have 308 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 1: left some as well, so you would cast those. You 309 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: would actually do do castings of those shoe impressions, take photographs. 310 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: If they're deep enough, you can do casting, which is 311 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,679 Speaker 1: where we mix up what's called dental stone. It's actually 312 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: the same stuff that dentures are made out of, and 313 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: we pour that into the depressed areas, use it a 314 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 1: lot with tire tracks, and it forms it form an 315 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 1: impression or a casting as it is of these elements 316 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: that can be tied back. If you ever find that 317 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: particular tire, you can look at the cast that you 318 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: took the scenes see if it marys up. Same thing 319 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: with shoes. Shoes have very distinctive patterns. If they found 320 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: her shoe prints out there and they're adjacent, and I'm 321 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 1: assuming that she's probably rather diminutive, all of our images 322 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 1: look like she is, you would see a stark difference 323 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: between what her footprints look like and what his look 324 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: like depend upon the types of shoes they were wearing. 325 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: Let's say, if he's got a smooth, smooth soled leather 326 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: shoe on, he's wearing a pair of I'm thinking back 327 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty two, a pair of zip up floor 328 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,439 Speaker 1: shine boots or something, you know. And he's out there 329 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: and he's contesting with her, and she's got on a 330 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: pair of kads sneakers, Well, those have a very distinctive pattern. 331 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: I always prefer kids or converse when I was a kid, 332 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 1: and they have this kind of unique waffle pattern to them. Well, 333 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 1: that's distinctive to that shoe. If you look at her shoes, 334 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: you can actually say, yet, this is in fact, this 335 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: does look similar to the shoes that she has on 336 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: her feet when she died, But we don't know about 337 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,360 Speaker 1: these others and some of the other considerations you take 338 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: into account relative to shoe and tire impressions as you 339 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,239 Speaker 1: begin to think about the weight of an individual. You know, 340 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 1: So let's just take a truck for instance. If you've 341 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: got a four to f one fifty pickup truck and 342 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: it has nothing in the bed of the truck, and 343 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: you drive over over a dirt road, well that impression 344 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: will be there, but it's going to be not as deep. 345 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: Makes sense. It's kind of logical if you've got sacks 346 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: of concrete in the back of the truck that you're 347 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 1: taking out somewhere to build something to pour concrete. You know, 348 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: we've all seen these trucks. The shocks are under stressed 349 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: in the back. The front end would be up in 350 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: the air, so those tire tracks are going to be 351 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 1: much deeper with something like that. Well, the same thing 352 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 1: with the human being. If you're talking about a grown 353 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: mail which he was, he's going to have first off, 354 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,880 Speaker 1: a different shoe size. It'll be larger. You'll be able 355 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: to tell that right away, and also his weight because 356 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: they're standing on the same surface, Dave the same type 357 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: of surface, so his would be deeper as opposed to 358 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 1: her as being more shallow. And then you can look 359 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 1: at the prince to see how they're kind of if 360 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: the types of movements that we're going on all right, 361 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: are there scuff marks where the edges of the shoes 362 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: are being almost like a plow where they're moving the 363 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: dirt away, that implies that she's being drug Right, you 364 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 1: can have kind of elliptical if she's knocked out, he's 365 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: got his hands under her armpits and he's dragging her. 366 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: Her heels are touching the ground. That drag mark is 367 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: going to look completely different than, say, for instance, if 368 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 1: he's dragging her from the side. So people that do 369 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 1: impression evidence like that have got a real keen eye 370 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 1: for the sort of thing much better than say, for instance, 371 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: I do. But it's indicative of movement and activity at 372 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 1: the scene. So based upon that alone, we know that Karen, 373 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 1: when she arrived at that location and when the scuffle 374 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: took place, she was still in the land of living. 375 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: But after the scuffle ended, her death was at hand. 376 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 1: And oh my, the injury she's just snained. Let me 377 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: paint the picture for you when you're at a death 378 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: scene and you have someone that has been so severely traumatized. 379 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: There actually been cases where I have gone out to 380 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: a scene where someone has been stabbed through their shirt. 381 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 1: There was so much blood that had saturated through the anterior, 382 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: which means the front of the body, and also posterior. 383 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: It obviously didn't go through the body, but they had 384 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: multiple stab woinds on the back as well. David, you know, 385 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: I couldn't even tell the color of the shirt. Sometimes 386 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 1: the volume of blood can diminish everything else, and you 387 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: have no idea as to what you're looking at because 388 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: you know that someone has been traumatized. You might see 389 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 1: a few gaping wounds, but you'll never understand the full 390 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 1: depth and breadth until you get them back to the 391 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: morgue and you get them cleaned up, and then suddenly 392 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 1: again it's like sunlight hitting when those surgical lights hit 393 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: that body and you begin to see all of those 394 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 1: I would like to refer to them with single edge blades, 395 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: the winking eye as I call it, single edge blade. 396 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: They all look like winking eyes. That's the stab ons. 397 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: And you're thinking, oh my lord, this is absolutely indescribable. 398 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 2: When there are this many stabloons where you're talking fifty nine, yeah, 399 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,959 Speaker 2: you know, or more really tend to think of a 400 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 2: frenzied stabbing going on, lots of just fighting screen. You 401 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 2: know that a lot of them are going to be slices, 402 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 2: just frenzied movement, not just all you know, Alfred Hitchcock's 403 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 2: psycho in the shower stabbing, you know. Yeah, And I 404 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 2: don't know what that actually means though with fifty nine stabbing, 405 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,880 Speaker 2: is it overkill or was she fighting in such way 406 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 2: as that only one or two of these was a 407 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 2: massive shit where all the rest we're a bunch of 408 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 2: these cuts. Oh my god, there's fifty nine. I guess 409 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 2: I'm just trying to figure out why why were there 410 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 2: so many that? There's no way, I mean, the overkill 411 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 2: almost indicates a personal relationship with somebody. You don't find 412 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 2: that in stranger things like this. 413 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 1: Do you you do when you're doing with somebody the psychotic? Okay, yeah, 414 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: that's really my only my only answer to that. I 415 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:54,719 Speaker 1: don't know what you're looking at. 416 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 2: The boyfriend though, weren't. 417 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: They yeah, oh oh my gosh, yeah, I know that 418 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: they were. And look sometimes and I don't know how 419 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:04,959 Speaker 1: long it took them to get off of him as 420 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: a suspect. And sometimes you know, because cops are going 421 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: to press, they have to press at that moment time 422 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: because you get one one swing at the ball, all right. 423 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 1: But I think that many times when when you get 424 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: onto an intimate and you begin to look at them 425 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: and it turns out they're not involved. If if you 426 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 1: get tunnel vision, that's a very dangerous place to be 427 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: in investigatively because for every second that you're not looking 428 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: at somebody else, you're going down this kind of this 429 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: linear timeline where you're moving further and further away from 430 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 1: the actual event, and that individual physically is getting away, 431 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: and they're getting away. You know. I don't want to 432 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: overstate this, but let's just say that biologically, any kind 433 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: of evidence is getting away because you have to assume 434 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:09,640 Speaker 1: that when the perpetrator left Karen Dave, he's super saturated. Man, 435 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: So anything he would have had on he's had a 436 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 1: time to shower. Now he's had a time to discard 437 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 1: whatever kind of clothing he was wearing at that moment. 438 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 1: Time maybe burned it, you never know, and it's gone. 439 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: He could have had it sent to the city dump 440 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 1: at that you know, by that time he could have 441 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,199 Speaker 1: thrown it in a dumpster on his way back to 442 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: his domicile. You just you never know, and so time 443 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: is critical here. When but when they did Karen's examination 444 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: back at the Morgue, Dave, you mentioned something and I 445 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: think that this was the point that you were trying 446 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: to get at. Did she fight back? Were these defensive wounds? Dave? 447 00:28:53,840 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: According to the forensic pathologist in this particular case, you know, 448 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 1: to give you an idea about how old this case is, 449 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: the forensic pathologists that did the autopsy, I think he 450 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 1: died like back in two thousand and six or two 451 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: thousand and seven. All right, so he's been and he 452 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: was an old member, yeah, and he's gone. You know, 453 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: at this point in time, he actually documented the fifty 454 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: nine strikes that she had had, Dave, Karen was stabbed. 455 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: Are you ready for this? Eighteen times in the heart? 456 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: Eighteen times in the heart. That if you were firing 457 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: a weapon, Okay, if you were firing a weapon at 458 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: a target, you know the silhouette targets that you use 459 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: and you try to hit center mass, and you know 460 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: they have the head on them. They have a circle 461 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: in the middle of the head. You try to aim 462 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: for that. If they tell you to take a headshot 463 00:29:54,920 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: when you're qualifying and you have center mass, that's an 464 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: incredible shot. Group. If you're firing a firearm, okay, that 465 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: means that you're putting those rounds right in that same spot. 466 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: Somebody's not going to be moving in the midst of this. 467 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: That's why I think that a lot of these you're 468 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 1: talking about eighteen wounds to the heart, now, that's what 469 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: the pathologists documented. So in a tight little if you 470 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,719 Speaker 1: just think about a tight little circle adjacent to your sternum. Okay, 471 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: that's just to the left side of your sternum. In 472 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: that space, there would have had to been eighteen individual well, 473 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: like I said earlier, winking eyes. Just think about that, 474 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: and these are all penetrating her heart, every single one 475 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: of them. And he didn't stop there. The thing about 476 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: it is is that Karen had injuries to her neck, 477 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: her chest, her abdomen, and her back. I often think that, 478 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes when we're attacked, there's like this thing 479 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: that I've seen happened with individuals that get attack attacked 480 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: and they kind of go into I call it like 481 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: a turtle posture, where they will we kind of curl 482 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: up many times, you know how they tell you to 483 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: react if there's a charging bear coming. You know, you 484 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 1: kind of get into a ball. But that's kind of 485 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: a natural reaction. Many times when you're overwhelmed by trauma, 486 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: you kind of go into a fetal position. I'm thinking 487 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: that the injuries that she had on her back was 488 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 1: not a reactive thing. And he's, you know, he stabbing 489 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 1: her on her back and then he flips her over. 490 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: He starts stabbing her anteriorly. But I got to tell you, Dave, 491 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: not only did she sustain eighteen stablings to the heart, 492 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 1: she also stabbed was stabbed ten times in her lungs 493 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: as well. Again you know they're lateral of the heart, 494 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: left and the right, and so he's all over her 495 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: chest at this point in tom he stabbed her in 496 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: the throat, in the neck, and he actually punctured her layering. 497 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: He got her trachea, and the larynx is essentially superior 498 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: to the trachia. Trachea is actually what people referred to 499 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: as the wind pipe. And this is not surprising, but 500 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: he went through the trachea and actually, well, I don't know, 501 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: let me get my anatomis right here, went into the 502 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: trachia and went into the esophagus as well. So he 503 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: is just absolutely riddled Karen with all of these injuries. 504 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: And again it brings us back to this idea of 505 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: how much anger had to be involved. But I think 506 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 1: people would love to know and try to understand how 507 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: did this guy get away with this because we're talking 508 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: decades later now, until he was hooked up and it 509 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: was actually his own biology that sealed his fate. 510 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 2: Dave, Yeah, it was his daughter, wasn't it. I got 511 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 2: her DNA. Well back to this at the moment when 512 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 2: I mentioned his boyfriend, her boyfriend, Yeah, because it was 513 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 2: so overkill and so personal. It was his DNA the 514 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 2: freedom obviously that got them off of him. But between 515 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty two and the time that they actually finally 516 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 2: did eliminate him, it had to have been a number 517 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 2: of years they had to have had that in the 518 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 2: back of their head, because they did they didn't have 519 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 2: I mean, we didn't develop the DNA we have now 520 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 2: that we take for granted, is not even what we 521 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 2: had during the O J. Simpsons, crioal No as a 522 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 2: matter of fact, the first time. 523 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: I know I've said this before, but if any if 524 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: anyone is really interested in that interesting cat to look up, 525 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: check out Sir Alan Jefferies. And he is the first, 526 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: and he's British and he is the keep. He's he's 527 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: like on my uh, if I had, if I had 528 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,959 Speaker 1: a stack of baseball cards, a forensic scientists, he's one 529 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: of the people I want to have signed my card. 530 00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 1: He's actually the first cat that had utility for DNA 531 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: in crime science and he didn't come about. And that's 532 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: the infamous pitchfork case that took place. That's a guy's name, 533 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:17,439 Speaker 1: actually took place in Great Britain back in eighty four, 534 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: and he saw the utility for it. And starting back 535 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,800 Speaker 1: in eighty four, that's two years after and that's in 536 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: Great Britain, you know, before we really understood the utility 537 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: of it. This is in eighty two, and it was. 538 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 2: Eighty seven or eighty eight before it was ever even 539 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:35,799 Speaker 2: used in a trial in the US. 540 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I think that that's accurate. 541 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,399 Speaker 2: And again the think is that I'm just thinking about 542 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 2: this poor kid. I'm thinking about the seventeen year old 543 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 2: kid in nineteen eighty two. Yeah, who seems like a 544 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 2: likely suspect for killing his girlfriend. And he can't say 545 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,360 Speaker 2: I didn't do it. He was with her up until 546 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,319 Speaker 2: I mean, he was right there walking her to the 547 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 2: bus stole. I mean, I just all I can think 548 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,319 Speaker 2: of what his life, you know, I mean, God love 549 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 2: her for fifteen year old self dead in her family. 550 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 2: I just I get my heart breaks for all of them. 551 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: But yeah, but the thing about it is for him though, 552 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: that would be lingering. It kind of chases you through 553 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 1: your life, I can only imagine. And he might get 554 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: a respite and not think about it, but your thoughts 555 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 1: are always going to drift back to it. And you 556 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 1: know you're sitting there, you know good and well that 557 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,839 Speaker 1: you didn't do this thing right, but you keep And 558 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: I'm sure that part of him was probably hoping that 559 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: somebody would eventually and not just to free him of it. 560 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,839 Speaker 1: But you know, he cared for this young girl at 561 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 1: that particular time in his life. He wanted to see 562 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: it solved, I'm sure, as her family did. But yeah, 563 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: for the suspect involved in this case, Dave, and this 564 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 1: does not surprise me in the least bit. First Off, 565 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,760 Speaker 1: the one thing that I failed to mention is that 566 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: there was some interesting activity that went on with her body. 567 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 1: And I think that it's important that you know that 568 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 1: we kind of take note of this. This this reeks 569 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: of not just savagery, but there's a touch of sadism 570 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: here too. She was actually found new Dave, and her 571 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: wrist had been bound behind her back with her shirt 572 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: and her jacket was tied around her ankles, so she's 573 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 1: essentially immobilized in that state. I would I think that 574 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 1: for me, I would have loved to have known what 575 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: the types of knots that were used, how how robust 576 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 1: the knots were, how much tension was placed on the wrist, 577 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: did they leave a mark? You know, these bindings. You 578 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: don't normally see something that's that has that much surface 579 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: area that's going to you know, like if you use 580 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 1: a piece of rope, for instance, and you can see 581 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 1: binding marks on the wrist or the ankles because it 582 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: cuts a deep furrow. Same thing, the same principle that 583 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 1: we apply with hangings. But I would like to know 584 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 1: how tightly she was tied. This child was terrified, Dave, 585 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 1: because I have to assume that happened in life. He 586 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 1: wanted to have complete and total access to her, but 587 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,399 Speaker 1: she was in fact raped as well, so you've got 588 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,399 Speaker 1: biological deposition from him there. And here's the other thing, Dave, 589 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,240 Speaker 1: this guy was in a frenzy. He apparently cut hisself 590 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 1: because his blood was there as well, and back in 591 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 1: eighty two, and I wonder how long it kind of 592 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: took them to kind of sust this out, because in 593 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,840 Speaker 1: eighty two, all we had was blood typing. You know, 594 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,959 Speaker 1: we talked about this recently. You know, we had zerology 595 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 1: where you know, you're you're looking at the scene and 596 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 1: you want to type the blood. The boyfriend, unless he 597 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 1: had the same tie of blood as him, could have 598 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: been eliminated based upon that bit of blood that was 599 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 1: left behind, because it wasn't Karen's blood, so there was 600 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,320 Speaker 1: blood that was left behind. And again here's another great 601 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:20,359 Speaker 1: case of law enforcement officials that have preserved evidence, Dave, 602 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 1: this keeps popping out. I love this. I love the 603 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 1: fact that these folks are preserving this evidence for so 604 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 1: long that it can still be tested. 605 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 2: It's amazing that here we are in twenty twenty five 606 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,960 Speaker 2: and they're able to test materials now back from the 607 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 2: set as well. The sixties too, But in this particular case, 608 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 2: this one actually came down to the it's the type 609 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 2: of work that authoram does. It's the type of work 610 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 2: that was used to catch the Golden State killer using 611 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 2: the genetic genealogy to which is how they were able 612 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:03,720 Speaker 2: to Finally, because his daughter did did she like submit 613 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 2: her did she donate her blood to something else, her 614 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 2: DNA to like a twenty three and meters or did 615 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 2: they come Well. 616 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,840 Speaker 1: It would be an open it would be a sample 617 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 1: had to have been submitted to to an open source 618 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,840 Speaker 1: to an open source directory. It can't like I was 619 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:26,319 Speaker 1: one like me is not is not open source, so 620 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: it would have to be another one. It's the same 621 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 1: databases that author relies on as well. And at some 622 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:38,359 Speaker 1: point in time, somebody deposited a DNA sample and you know, 623 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 1: you look at I don't know, you began to think 624 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: about you know, they've they've got they've got a cold 625 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:51,720 Speaker 1: case unit there. I think it's uh Santa Clara, Santa 626 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: Clara County, I think is the name of it. Uh. 627 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:59,000 Speaker 1: They've got a they've got a cold case unit there 628 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 1: within the DA office and they've been looking at cases. 629 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 1: You know what, what can we get off of the 630 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,560 Speaker 1: off of the books. And it was in twenty nineteen 631 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:13,240 Speaker 1: that the cold case supervisor, a fellow named Rob Baker, 632 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 1: you know, got involved with this and decided, you know, hey, 633 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 1: you know, I'll spend the wheel here and see if 634 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 1: we can't maybe get a DNA genealogist to find some 635 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 1: leads in this case, because thing's gone cold. But you know, 636 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:33,800 Speaker 1: a PA cop understands that you've got this much physical evidence. 637 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 1: And it was you know, I think twenty nineteen that 638 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:48,279 Speaker 1: they actually get an indication that the suspect was one 639 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,719 Speaker 1: and did this was one of four brothers that lived 640 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: in Fresno. Wow, you know, you think you think about that, 641 00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:00,759 Speaker 1: And of course the one that was the one that 642 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,719 Speaker 1: was settled upon had been living in Hawaii or they 643 00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,279 Speaker 1: had lived in Fresno for a period of time. The 644 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:11,359 Speaker 1: perpetrator is wound up wound up in Hawaiian had been 645 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,239 Speaker 1: there for decades and he's the one that they eventually 646 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 1: wound up hooking up on this thing. 647 00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,760 Speaker 2: Seventy eight year old Gary Ramirez is the person arrested 648 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,279 Speaker 2: in charge with Joe. Why after forty three years we're 649 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:28,840 Speaker 2: investigators able to move forward with Ramirez as the suspect. 650 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 1: The evidence in this case, looking back on it now, 651 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 1: is so overwhelming that the perpetrator in this case has 652 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 1: in fact been convicted at this point in time. Just 653 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: has this is hot off the press and Dave, he 654 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:50,200 Speaker 1: played no contest. 655 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:54,360 Speaker 2: With that, no contest Palid Joe Gary Ramirez, who is 656 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:58,320 Speaker 2: seventy eight years old, is sentenced to life with possible 657 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,719 Speaker 2: parole after twenty five years, meaning when he's one hundred 658 00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 2: and three years old he can see Pearl. 659 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,280 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks