WEBVTT - The Bone Collectors, Part 2

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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<v Speaker 2>is Robert Lamb.

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<v Speaker 3>And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back part two in

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<v Speaker 3>the Halloween season series. We're calling the Bone Collectors about

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<v Speaker 3>organisms in nature that form Texas chainsaw massacre style collections

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<v Speaker 3>of bones and other dead body parts. In the last episode,

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<v Speaker 3>we talked first about the extinct cave hyena Crocutispialia, which

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<v Speaker 3>was a Eurasian apex predator of the Pleistocene Epic. These

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<v Speaker 3>animals are famous for assembling these big pits of animal

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<v Speaker 3>bones that are now found preserved in caves and the

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<v Speaker 3>caves where they lived around the world, and that in

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<v Speaker 3>itself provides interesting information about the adaptive characteristics of these animals,

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<v Speaker 3>mainly the fact that we sort of talked about them

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<v Speaker 3>as like a tractor model predator or scavenger, that they

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<v Speaker 3>were strong, had these powerful jaws, and I think, maybe

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<v Speaker 3>for some reasons of social cooperation as well, were able

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<v Speaker 3>to haul large amounts of animal carcass mass from kill

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<v Speaker 3>sites or from scavenging sites out in the world all

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<v Speaker 3>the way back to their dens, which were often in

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<v Speaker 3>caves and then you find these assemblages of bones in

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<v Speaker 3>the caves.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, they're kind of like tow trucks. They're out there,

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<v Speaker 2>they find a carcass that's been illegally parked, and they're like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>we got to take this back to the garage.

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<v Speaker 3>And then after that we talked about an insect native

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<v Speaker 3>to a small stretch of forest in a mountain range

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<v Speaker 3>on the Hawaiian island of Oahu, nicknamed the bone collector

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<v Speaker 3>caterpillar because of its unusual behavior of first of all,

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<v Speaker 3>living inside active spider webs and then covering its external

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<v Speaker 3>silk case with dead, dried out insect body parts shopped

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<v Speaker 3>from the spider's web, which there's no perfect analogy for

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<v Speaker 3>on our level, but I was thinking about it, like

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<v Speaker 3>if there were a species of bird that lived inside

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<v Speaker 3>a Kentucky fried chicken and primarily eight chicken scavenged from

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<v Speaker 3>people's tables, and completely covered the outside of its body

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<v Speaker 3>with leftover chicken bones so as not to be mistaken

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<v Speaker 3>by the people working there for like another chicken that

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<v Speaker 3>should be cooked or something.

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<v Speaker 2>I like it. You know, make this a terror bird

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<v Speaker 2>and put humans on the menu, and you've got yourself

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<v Speaker 2>a horror movie right here.

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<v Speaker 4>I think now.

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<v Speaker 3>In the case of the bone collector caterpillar, the reason

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<v Speaker 3>for the chopped up insect body part suit behavior is

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<v Speaker 3>not known with certainty, but researchers kind of suggested that

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<v Speaker 3>it may be a form of camouflage to protect the

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<v Speaker 3>caterpillar from the spider that it lives alongside. Somehow disguising

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<v Speaker 3>the caterpillar as trash something to be ignored. And we're

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<v Speaker 3>back today to talk about more so, Robin.

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<v Speaker 2>Sorry what, oh no, It's just it would be kind

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<v Speaker 2>of like if you were at a child's birthday party

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<v Speaker 2>and you covered yourself in the crust of pizza slices

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<v Speaker 2>and the bottom parts of cupcakes, you know, the parts

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<v Speaker 2>that the children buy and large do not eat, and

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<v Speaker 2>they would mark yourself safe from them, I guess, yeah, yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Or you're a piece of Halloween candy that eats Halloween candy,

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<v Speaker 3>that disguises yourself by covering yourself in candy wrappers.

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<v Speaker 4>There you go, that work.

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<v Speaker 3>You would look like, what's already done with? I don't

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<v Speaker 3>need to pay attention to that anymore. That's for mom

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<v Speaker 3>and dad to clean up. Yeah, now, rob, if you

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<v Speaker 3>don't mind I was going to kick things off today

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<v Speaker 3>looking at a wasp. Would you like to do that?

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<v Speaker 4>Oh?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm always game for another horror story from the

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<v Speaker 2>world of the wasp.

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<v Speaker 3>There's a lot to choose from there. So in the

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<v Speaker 3>last episode, since we talked about the bone collector caterpillar,

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<v Speaker 3>I guess it's obvious that we've expanded our criteria for

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<v Speaker 3>collectors beyond literal bones. We're not just looking at uses

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<v Speaker 3>for the internal skeletons of vertebrate animals. Because to be frank,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, I was looking at a lot of things

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<v Speaker 3>we could have talked about. I think some of the

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<v Speaker 3>best examples just come from the invertebrate world. That's where

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of the best stuff happens. So I wanted

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<v Speaker 3>to kick things off by talking about another insect example,

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<v Speaker 3>and that is the bone house wasp. The scientific name

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<v Speaker 3>for the species is Deuterogenia osorium. Ooh yeah, And that

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<v Speaker 3>species name, you might hear that in your brain there osorium.

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<v Speaker 3>That comes from the word ossuary if you're not familiar.

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<v Speaker 3>And ossuary is a storage space that could be a

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<v Speaker 3>box or something bigger, like a whole room or a

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<v Speaker 3>hall for the storage of human bones often used in

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<v Speaker 3>places where burial space is limited or at a premium,

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<v Speaker 3>So a common practice in many places would be that

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<v Speaker 3>when a person dies, they are buried or entombed in

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<v Speaker 3>a temporary spot. Later, maybe a year later, after the

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<v Speaker 3>decomposition of the soft tissue, the bones are cleaned and

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<v Speaker 3>removed from the temporary burial space and transferred to an ossuary,

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<v Speaker 3>which could be a bone box or a chest, or

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<v Speaker 3>a space beneath the tomb, or just like a whole

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<v Speaker 3>bone building. Sometimes there are places with shelves crammed with

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<v Speaker 3>bones or rooms lined with bones. It's just another place

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<v Speaker 3>to put the bones. Now, why would a species of

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<v Speaker 3>wasp be named after a bone storage box, Well, we

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<v Speaker 3>will answer that question. This wasp was described in a

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<v Speaker 3>paper from twenty fourteen called a Unique Nest Protection Strategy

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<v Speaker 3>in a New Species of Spider Wasp, published in the

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<v Speaker 3>Journal Plus One by authors Michael Stobb, Michael ol Choudong Xu,

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<v Speaker 3>and Alexandra Maria Klein, and I was reading a bit

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<v Speaker 3>of background. Apparently, these insects were collected during a biodiversity

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<v Speaker 3>survey in the forests of Jungshi Province in southeast China,

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<v Speaker 3>where the researchers collected more than eight hundred chambered nests

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<v Speaker 3>from the wild and in the environment you would usually

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<v Speaker 3>find these nests. You would find them sometimes like dug

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<v Speaker 3>into the earth, or you would also find them maybe

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<v Speaker 3>in natural cavities or holes that have been bored into

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<v Speaker 3>pieces of wood. It'll be kind of like deep tube

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<v Speaker 3>shaped chambers, either in earth or in wood or something

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<v Speaker 3>like that. So these chambered nests, they were found in

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<v Speaker 3>the wild and then they were brought back to the

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<v Speaker 3>laboratory so that the researchers could examine the nests and

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<v Speaker 3>rear the larvae. In the larvae inside quote here we

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<v Speaker 3>describe a surprising nesting behavior that was previously unknown in

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<v Speaker 3>the entire animal kingdom, the use of a vestibular cell

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<v Speaker 3>filled with dead ants. So some houses have a mud room,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, sort of the outer room between the front

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<v Speaker 3>door and then where the house proper begins. These nests

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<v Speaker 3>have an anti chamber like that, called the vestibular cell.

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<v Speaker 3>It's an ant room and it's filled with dead ant bodies.

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<v Speaker 4>Rob I've got.

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<v Speaker 3>A photo of a cross section of a nest for

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<v Speaker 3>you to look at in the outline here, so you

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<v Speaker 3>can see the nest has a what you might think

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<v Speaker 3>of as a shotgun house design. It's deep and narrow

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<v Speaker 3>and deeper. You have what are called the brood cells.

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<v Speaker 3>This is where the wasp eggs are protected, sealed in

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<v Speaker 3>with these cemented doors made of maybe plant material, soil, debris,

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<v Speaker 3>and mud. And then in the outermost chamber you can

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<v Speaker 3>see this dusty jumble of mangled ant skeletons, just a

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<v Speaker 3>wad of dead ants.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh wow, yeah, this is incredible and you know, for

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<v Speaker 2>many of us, speaking at least for the two of us,

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<v Speaker 2>but I think a lot of people out there. You've

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<v Speaker 2>grown up in an area that had a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>dirt dobber wafts or mud dabbers, various names, you would

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<v Speaker 2>inevitably figure out that they do a similar thing with spiders,

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<v Speaker 2>where you'd find this cache of spiders hidden away inside

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<v Speaker 2>their mud nests.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh, these wasps do that with spiders too. We're actually

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<v Speaker 3>going to get a two for one here. Oh yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>so we're going to get ants and spiders in the

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<v Speaker 3>same nest. It's a smorgasboard of invertebrate horror. But so

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<v Speaker 3>the question is why.

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<v Speaker 4>The ant bone room.

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<v Speaker 3>While the authors discuss they start the paper by talking

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<v Speaker 3>about different evolutionary specializations in reproductive strategy, noting that certain

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<v Speaker 3>wasp species will specialize in trying to protect and ensure

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<v Speaker 3>the survival of a smaller number of total eggs compared

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<v Speaker 3>to the majority of their close insect relatives, which lay

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<v Speaker 3>more eggs but invest less in the survival of each one.

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<v Speaker 3>So the majority of soft flies and wasp females will

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<v Speaker 3>be able to lay hundreds of eggs in a lifetime.

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<v Speaker 3>But what the authors call the quote more advanced solitary

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<v Speaker 3>nest provisioning hymenoptera that they sometimes lay only a dozen

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<v Speaker 3>eggs or so, or even less than that in the

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<v Speaker 3>lifetime of a single female. So lay far fewer eggs,

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<v Speaker 3>but do a lot more to protect each one. And

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<v Speaker 3>the bone house wasp is in the latter group, the

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<v Speaker 3>kind that invests a lot more in each egg. It

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<v Speaker 3>is a solitary nest provisioning wasp in the family Pompility.

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<v Speaker 3>The pompility are also known as the spider hunting wasps.

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<v Speaker 3>And here we come back to what you talked about

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<v Speaker 3>with the spiders earlier. Within this family, Curiously, the adults

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<v Speaker 3>actually don't eat spiders. The adults feed mostly on plant nectar,

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<v Speaker 3>and they're vegetarians. They are not generally carnivores, and yet

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<v Speaker 3>they are some of the most fearful predators in a

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<v Speaker 3>way in nature, I guess, depending on how you want

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<v Speaker 3>to use the word predator. They're not eating spiders, but

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<v Speaker 3>they do attack spiders with a painful, paralyzing venom, not

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<v Speaker 3>so that the adults themselves can eat the spiders, but

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<v Speaker 3>so that the spiders can be entombed as a live,

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<v Speaker 3>non decomposing food source for their growing young. So yes,

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<v Speaker 3>these spiders in many cases, in most cases, will be

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<v Speaker 3>eaten alive in a paralyzed state. So the life cycle

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<v Speaker 3>for a spider hunting wasp usually goes like this. You

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<v Speaker 3>have adults, which you can feed on floral nectar. They

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<v Speaker 3>produce this paralyzing sting. They use the paralyzing sting to

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<v Speaker 3>attack and immobilize a spider, then they carry the spider away.

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<v Speaker 3>They lay their eggs alongside the paralyzed spider inside a

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<v Speaker 3>protected nest of some sort, often a hole or a

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<v Speaker 3>tube of some kind closed to the outside, to protect

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<v Speaker 3>the egg and the larva once it hatches, and I

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<v Speaker 3>guess presumably also to protect the spider as a food

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<v Speaker 3>source from being stolen. You know, you want to lock

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<v Speaker 3>up the fridge.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, just don't leave that lane around.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah yeah, it's like a bare box, you know, the roadbox.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. And so the larvae hatch inside these protected nests

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<v Speaker 3>and they eat the spiders, usually starting instinctually with non

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<v Speaker 3>vital body parts, eating you know, eat, chewing through the

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<v Speaker 3>cuticle on the outside of the spider, eating the body

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<v Speaker 3>parts first that will not be lethal to the spider,

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<v Speaker 3>and then finally working their ways to the vital organs,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, eating the heart and the central nervous system

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<v Speaker 3>and stuff. And the goal is to keep the paralyzed

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<v Speaker 3>spider alive as long as possible so that it doesn't decompose.

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<v Speaker 3>It kind of keeps the spider alive while entombed, to

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<v Speaker 3>take advantage of the spider's living physiology, like it's immune

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<v Speaker 3>system as a natural preservative.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mean it may sound cruel to us, but

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it's a wasp larva eat spider world out there.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, it's efficient, waste not want not.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>So they oh and then finally, of course, the larvae

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<v Speaker 3>they mature, they might pupate, emerge from the nest to

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<v Speaker 3>become these nectivorous adults and repeat the cycle. So everything

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<v Speaker 3>I just said is also the case for the bone

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<v Speaker 3>house wasp. These are these spider hunting solitary wasps. But

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<v Speaker 3>what separates the bonehouse wasp from its nest provisioning kin

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<v Speaker 3>is that the bone house wasp also goes to the

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<v Speaker 3>extra trouble of provisioning the nest with an outer chamber

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<v Speaker 3>what the authors of the paper will call again a

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<v Speaker 3>vestibular cell crammed with dead ants. Now, when I was

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<v Speaker 3>first reading about this, and I hadn't gotten to the

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<v Speaker 3>reasoning part of it yet, the first place my brain

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<v Speaker 3>went was, oh, bonus snack. Right, so you got your

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<v Speaker 3>spider and then you've got something else. My young will

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<v Speaker 3>emerge extra well fed because not only do they get

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<v Speaker 3>to eat a paralyzed spider alive bit by bit, they

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<v Speaker 3>also get to eat some ants for dessert. But no,

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<v Speaker 3>the ants are not there to be eaten. In fact,

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<v Speaker 3>the ants in the vestibular chamber are completely ignored by

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<v Speaker 3>the larvae. The larvae never eat or come into contact

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<v Speaker 3>with them.

0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:20.520
<v Speaker 2>Wow, okay, all right, so what are they for? Right? Yeah?

0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:23.880
<v Speaker 2>They can't be a decorative garnish. Surely they have to

0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:24.640
<v Speaker 2>have some purpose.

0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:27.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, they're closed up in there, right, so what are

0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:32.600
<v Speaker 3>they for? Interestingly, the authors note that many other Hymenoptera

0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:38.240
<v Speaker 3>species construct tubular nests with these outer chambers or vestibular cells,

0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:42.000
<v Speaker 3>but they're usually empty, and at the time of this

0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:45.959
<v Speaker 3>paper their function was not really known because previous research

0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:49.080
<v Speaker 3>had thought, well, you know, maybe these are protective in

0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:53.200
<v Speaker 3>some way, this outer empty chamber, it protects the brood inside,

0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:57.240
<v Speaker 3>But previous research had not shown these vestibular cells to

0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:00.359
<v Speaker 3>have any protective benefit for the eggs or larvae inside.

0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:03.480
<v Speaker 3>So what are they for? Because to be clear, protection

0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:08.160
<v Speaker 3>is a concern. I mean, these organisms sound very fearsome

0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:10.840
<v Speaker 3>because what they attack spiders and they paralyze them and

0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:14.000
<v Speaker 3>they eat them alive. But still the young are vulnerable.

0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:19.760
<v Speaker 3>You know, you can have an adult parasitoid or predator

0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:22.920
<v Speaker 3>parasite of another species attack the nest, and the young,

0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:25.400
<v Speaker 3>the eggs or the larvae will be very vulnerable.

0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:25.800
<v Speaker 4>Inside.

0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:28.960
<v Speaker 3>There are other wasp and fly species that will readily

0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:31.720
<v Speaker 3>attack the nests and eat the eggs and larvae of

0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:34.880
<v Speaker 3>these solitary spider hunting wasps if they can get in there.

0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:39.440
<v Speaker 3>So the brood inside would benefit from protection. But these

0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:43.960
<v Speaker 3>commonly found empty vestibular cells don't seem to provide much,

0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:48.160
<v Speaker 3>if any protection, at least as far as we can tell. Experimentally. However,

0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:52.119
<v Speaker 3>the authors of this paper found that when the vestibular

0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:56.120
<v Speaker 3>chamber is stuffed with dead ants, it seems it actually

0:14:56.240 --> 0:15:00.360
<v Speaker 3>does provide a protective advantage. The dead ants help keep

0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:06.120
<v Speaker 3>nest parasites and predators out. So how do they do that? Well,

0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:08.600
<v Speaker 3>the authors raise a couple of possibilities which are not

0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:16.320
<v Speaker 3>mutually exclusive, chemical camouflage and chemical defense. Quote ants produce

0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:22.200
<v Speaker 3>a diverse array of organic compounds, including species specific cuticular

0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:26.320
<v Speaker 3>hydrocarbons or cchs, which are a central part of the

0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:31.840
<v Speaker 3>nest mate recognition system. Being long chained molecules of low volatility,

0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:36.400
<v Speaker 3>cchs persist on the cuticula of dead Hymenoptera for a

0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:41.560
<v Speaker 3>long time period, thus giving do Osarium nests the scent

0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:47.440
<v Speaker 3>of an ant colony. So you've got these cuticular hydrocarbons

0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:51.520
<v Speaker 3>that these chemical signals that persist on the body of

0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:54.560
<v Speaker 3>dead ants for a long time, and they keep the

0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:59.040
<v Speaker 3>brood chambers of the young wasps smelling like an ant colony,

0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:01.360
<v Speaker 3>and if you are an inse, even a predator or

0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:04.800
<v Speaker 3>a parasite, you usually don't want to mess with an

0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:07.880
<v Speaker 3>ant colony. It's like in Grand Theft Auto when you

0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:09.920
<v Speaker 3>like go on the military base or something. You know,

0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:13.000
<v Speaker 3>it's just like instant, overwhelming defensive response.

0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:16.640
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yeah, it's it's quite a heist. As we alluded

0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:18.400
<v Speaker 2>to in the last episode. You can have specialists that

0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:20.960
<v Speaker 2>can do it, but it is it's a high risk environment.

0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:23.880
<v Speaker 3>The author is right quote. In this context, we find

0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:28.640
<v Speaker 3>it particularly interesting that the numerically dominating ant species ind

0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:33.840
<v Speaker 3>Osarium nests is p astuda, an aggressive, large bodied, and

0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:37.800
<v Speaker 3>common species in the study region that has a powerful sting.

0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:41.400
<v Speaker 3>So they seem to be not just collecting any ant.

0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:43.840
<v Speaker 3>They're trying to get a certain kind of ant in

0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:47.720
<v Speaker 3>this dead ant room. And what they're selecting for the

0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:50.680
<v Speaker 3>ant bone box is an ant that is big and

0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:56.320
<v Speaker 3>ferocious with nasty venom, is stinky, and is common and

0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:59.920
<v Speaker 3>likely to have been encountered by local nest attacking insects.

0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.320
<v Speaker 2>Yes, oh wow, Okay, now it's all coming together.

0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:06.480
<v Speaker 3>The author's right quote. The proposed function of the ant

0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:10.240
<v Speaker 3>chamber is most effective against predators that break the nest

0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:14.160
<v Speaker 3>and against parasitic wasps that penetrate the nest with their

0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:18.560
<v Speaker 3>long ovipositor that would be an egg laying appendage, so

0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:21.400
<v Speaker 3>trying to put their own eggs inside the nest. Such

0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:26.040
<v Speaker 3>parasitoids attacked other trapped nesting wasps, including other pompility in

0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:30.880
<v Speaker 3>the study region, and may also attack Doosarium by penetrating

0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:35.040
<v Speaker 3>the wood that contains naturally the nest cavity. However, such

0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:39.040
<v Speaker 3>species were never found in nests of Doosarium, which was

0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:42.560
<v Speaker 3>only attacked by parasitoids which entered the nest prior to

0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:46.680
<v Speaker 3>the construction of the ant chamber. So the ant chambers

0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:49.560
<v Speaker 3>keep the bad guys out and they protect the brood within.

0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:52.480
<v Speaker 3>And the authors note again that this is the first

0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:56.119
<v Speaker 3>case of a species of wasp found in nature to

0:17:56.280 --> 0:18:01.040
<v Speaker 3>build a nest chamber full of ant carcasses. Wonder nature is.

0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:04.560
<v Speaker 3>But getting back to our horror movie parallels. You know,

0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:07.920
<v Speaker 3>last time we were talking about some distinctions different kinds

0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:11.560
<v Speaker 3>of things that can be signaled when in a horror

0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:14.959
<v Speaker 3>context you encounter a big collection of bones, you have

0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:18.199
<v Speaker 3>like the Midden style collection of bones, where it just

0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:22.720
<v Speaker 3>you know, it suggests non intelligent chaotic predation. This is

0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:27.080
<v Speaker 3>just a trash pile that signals lots of death versus

0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:31.520
<v Speaker 3>the carefully assembled or curated collection of bones that are

0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:35.400
<v Speaker 3>creepy in a different way that suggests fascination or kind

0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:39.600
<v Speaker 3>of aberrant obsessions or behavior. This example makes me think

0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:42.919
<v Speaker 3>about the sort of Texas chainsaw massacre implications in a

0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:48.240
<v Speaker 3>different way. You know, what if you imagine, okay, the

0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:50.560
<v Speaker 3>saw your family and the Texas chainsaw masker. Yeah, they

0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:52.880
<v Speaker 3>got a bunch of bones around, But we always assume

0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:56.679
<v Speaker 3>that it's because they're being aggressive. What if it's not

0:18:56.840 --> 0:18:59.640
<v Speaker 3>because they're trying to terrify their victims for the fun

0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:02.199
<v Speaker 3>of it. They're not salting the meat. What if it

0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:05.959
<v Speaker 3>is to frighten onlookers in a defensive way, much like

0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:08.320
<v Speaker 3>the ants in this nest, to get them to stay

0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:10.320
<v Speaker 3>away from the house, avoid the brood.

0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:13.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, that is kind of the vibe here. It's

0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:17.840
<v Speaker 2>so fascinating to think about because again we're talking about

0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:25.080
<v Speaker 2>an animal that is harvesting other animals, but not for food,

0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:29.840
<v Speaker 2>but for essentially building materials and to serve as a

0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:32.960
<v Speaker 2>protective barrier. Yeah, and I mean it's really hard to

0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:35.760
<v Speaker 2>think of any other species. I'm just off the top

0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:39.199
<v Speaker 2>of my head outside of human beings that actually do

0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:41.439
<v Speaker 2>this sort of thing where I look to the natural

0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:45.679
<v Speaker 2>world and identify one living species not as food but

0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:49.480
<v Speaker 2>as something that should be killed for other purposes.

0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:52.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that is interesting, and to be fair, I don't

0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:55.480
<v Speaker 3>think this too closely. Could actually fit the events of

0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:57.720
<v Speaker 3>TCM if you watch it, but I don't know. I'm

0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:00.399
<v Speaker 3>imagining an alternate version of TCM where they line the

0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:02.480
<v Speaker 3>outside of the house with like, I don't know, they've

0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:06.000
<v Speaker 3>they've gone out and gotten a bunch of malt like guards. Yeah,

0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:08.479
<v Speaker 3>security guards from all kinds of places, and then they

0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:11.760
<v Speaker 3>just post up the security guard uniforms outside their house.

0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:15.840
<v Speaker 2>Mmmm yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's not something that necessarily

0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:20.320
<v Speaker 2>translates completely to the human world, but within the world

0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:25.000
<v Speaker 2>of like insect communication, you can see how it would

0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:25.840
<v Speaker 2>speak volumes.

0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:29.119
<v Speaker 3>Either way, I think this definitely fits more into the

0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:35.600
<v Speaker 3>curated assemblage of remains than into the chaotic midden formula,

0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:38.240
<v Speaker 3>because these are not leftovers, like they were put in

0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:39.480
<v Speaker 3>there for a reason.

0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:52.800
<v Speaker 2>Right right, Yeah, this is a great example. All right.

0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:56.200
<v Speaker 2>I have a couple of other examples I want to

0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:59.200
<v Speaker 2>get to here in this episode. I'm gonna start though,

0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:02.720
<v Speaker 2>by returning to the decapod world. As we mentioned in

0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:07.880
<v Speaker 2>the last episode, hermit crabs are essentially the crab superstars

0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:11.320
<v Speaker 2>of pilfering the quote unquote bones. Again, we're being a

0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:16.199
<v Speaker 2>little liberal in our usage of the word bones of

0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:18.199
<v Speaker 2>the dead for their own use, the bones in this

0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:21.440
<v Speaker 2>case being the shells of mollusks that they use as

0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:22.399
<v Speaker 2>their own armor.

0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:23.040
<v Speaker 1>Hm.

0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:26.399
<v Speaker 2>But they are not the only decapods to get in

0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:29.520
<v Speaker 2>in this sort of action. Famously, we also have the

0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:34.760
<v Speaker 2>decorator crabs of the Superfamily majority. Now, not every species

0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:38.040
<v Speaker 2>in this family is a decorator crab. It's more broadly

0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:41.119
<v Speaker 2>considered I think the home of the spider crabs, but

0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:46.120
<v Speaker 2>still that's where we find decorator crabs. And there are

0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:50.119
<v Speaker 2>also other crabs outside of the superfamily that use similar adaptations,

0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:53.359
<v Speaker 2>such as the kelp crab. And we also might compare

0:21:53.400 --> 0:21:56.160
<v Speaker 2>this to the way pom Pom crabs or boxer crabs

0:21:56.200 --> 0:22:00.440
<v Speaker 2>carry sea enemies around one in each claw or one

0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:04.200
<v Speaker 2>on each claw, kind of brandishing them as living weapons.

0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:07.679
<v Speaker 3>Yeah yeah, Well, these things have come up on the

0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:10.000
<v Speaker 3>show a bit before, and I never thought about them

0:22:10.040 --> 0:22:13.280
<v Speaker 3>in a creepy context or in a bone collector kind

0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:17.600
<v Speaker 3>of way, go thinking, okay, maybe they're attaching various sessile

0:22:17.720 --> 0:22:21.240
<v Speaker 3>organisms to their back. This seems kind of hospitable in

0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:21.639
<v Speaker 3>a way.

0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:24.720
<v Speaker 2>I mean, they're grabbing animals and using them as weapons.

0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:26.600
<v Speaker 2>It would be like if there was a guy running

0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:29.159
<v Speaker 2>around the subway with a rat in each hand, chasing

0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:33.480
<v Speaker 2>at your people. You know, we would be it would

0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:34.439
<v Speaker 2>be a little off putting.

0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:36.840
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, But with the crabs, it's so cute.

0:22:37.160 --> 0:22:41.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, all right, so let's consider this this next example then, yeah,

0:22:41.080 --> 0:22:44.600
<v Speaker 2>the decorator crabs. So essentially, what decorator crabs do is

0:22:44.640 --> 0:22:50.000
<v Speaker 2>they camouflage themselves by considering their living environment, you know,

0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:54.520
<v Speaker 2>but not simply mimicking it with you know, their coloration

0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:58.760
<v Speaker 2>or their morphology, but by taking bits of that environment,

0:22:58.840 --> 0:23:03.080
<v Speaker 2>living parts of that environment in many cases, and sticking

0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:07.280
<v Speaker 2>that to their body. Essentially, they have the cetae on

0:23:07.400 --> 0:23:11.600
<v Speaker 2>their backs, like on their carapace. These are like little

0:23:11.600 --> 0:23:17.040
<v Speaker 2>hooklike often compared to velcrow situations, all over their shell

0:23:17.600 --> 0:23:21.280
<v Speaker 2>and this allows them to just reach out, strip a

0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:24.880
<v Speaker 2>little some living or non living portion of their environment

0:23:25.119 --> 0:23:29.560
<v Speaker 2>and just slap it on there and then this becomes

0:23:30.000 --> 0:23:33.240
<v Speaker 2>part of their protective array. Has pointed out in a

0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:36.960
<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty Scientific American article about decorator crabs by Mary

0:23:37.000 --> 0:23:40.920
<v Speaker 2>kay Wixton, other kinds of seta on the shell are

0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:43.879
<v Speaker 2>more sensory, and their job is not to hold stuff

0:23:43.920 --> 0:23:45.760
<v Speaker 2>in place so much, but to sort of keep track

0:23:45.800 --> 0:23:48.639
<v Speaker 2>of where everything is. So it would seem to be

0:23:48.800 --> 0:23:51.720
<v Speaker 2>a situation where it's not just completely slap dash. It's

0:23:51.760 --> 0:23:56.080
<v Speaker 2>carefully arranged. They are decorating to a certain degree. Things

0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:58.840
<v Speaker 2>go in the right place, and they have to remain there.

0:23:59.840 --> 0:24:04.120
<v Speaker 2>The crabs they get pretty picky about this. Like if,

0:24:05.080 --> 0:24:08.000
<v Speaker 2>as we've discussed before, a crab a decorator crab, like

0:24:08.000 --> 0:24:11.000
<v Speaker 2>other crabs, it has to molt. Its body grows, but

0:24:11.160 --> 0:24:13.879
<v Speaker 2>its shell doesn't. They have to ditch the shell that

0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:15.880
<v Speaker 2>it outgrew and then you know, grow a new one.

0:24:16.160 --> 0:24:19.080
<v Speaker 2>And when they do this, they will have to then

0:24:19.200 --> 0:24:23.800
<v Speaker 2>reattach their zoo garden back onto their new shell as

0:24:23.800 --> 0:24:27.720
<v Speaker 2>it grows. So this is interesting to think about. Now,

0:24:27.760 --> 0:24:30.040
<v Speaker 2>once they reach maturity, you know, they stop molting and

0:24:30.080 --> 0:24:32.639
<v Speaker 2>they're good to go, but there are going to be

0:24:32.640 --> 0:24:35.359
<v Speaker 2>these cases where they're like, okay, this this jacket doesn't

0:24:35.400 --> 0:24:37.600
<v Speaker 2>fit me anymore, but I have all of these great

0:24:37.720 --> 0:24:39.840
<v Speaker 2>enamel pins on it and patches, so I have to

0:24:39.880 --> 0:24:42.080
<v Speaker 2>take all those off and then put them on the

0:24:42.119 --> 0:24:44.800
<v Speaker 2>new jacket, the new gene jacket, once I grow it

0:24:44.800 --> 0:24:47.760
<v Speaker 2>out of my body. So yeah, there are number of

0:24:47.840 --> 0:24:51.280
<v Speaker 2>interesting details concerning this practice. So, first of all, body

0:24:51.320 --> 0:24:53.960
<v Speaker 2>size apparently plays a role in all of this, has

0:24:54.000 --> 0:24:58.040
<v Speaker 2>discussed in two thousand and nine's Evolution of Decoration in

0:24:58.240 --> 0:25:02.840
<v Speaker 2>the Majodia Crab by holtgrin at All, published in the

0:25:02.880 --> 0:25:05.919
<v Speaker 2>American Naturalists. Smaller bodied crabs would seem to have a

0:25:06.000 --> 0:25:10.200
<v Speaker 2>more economically sustainable time with a strategy, and this seems

0:25:10.200 --> 0:25:12.199
<v Speaker 2>to break down to the idea that the more body

0:25:12.240 --> 0:25:15.280
<v Speaker 2>you have, the more hooks you have to have, and

0:25:15.560 --> 0:25:18.280
<v Speaker 2>that has, you know, a cost to it. It's like

0:25:18.320 --> 0:25:20.840
<v Speaker 2>having a whole bunch of antlers on your head as

0:25:20.960 --> 0:25:25.080
<v Speaker 2>a vertebrate. So larger decorator crabs seem to rely less

0:25:25.240 --> 0:25:28.679
<v Speaker 2>on this sort of thing, and the smaller varieties of

0:25:28.800 --> 0:25:32.080
<v Speaker 2>decorator crabs, you know, are more all in on the decoration.

0:25:32.640 --> 0:25:35.439
<v Speaker 4>Interesting, okay, Yeah.

0:25:34.680 --> 0:25:37.840
<v Speaker 2>There are also some varieties that are more passive decorators

0:25:37.840 --> 0:25:40.960
<v Speaker 2>than others. So you know, they might just stuff just

0:25:41.040 --> 0:25:44.360
<v Speaker 2>kind of sticks to them and that becomes their camouflage,

0:25:44.359 --> 0:25:50.440
<v Speaker 2>while others are definitely involved in decorating themselves. I was

0:25:50.440 --> 0:25:52.840
<v Speaker 2>looking at some much older papers about these guys, and

0:25:53.200 --> 0:25:56.000
<v Speaker 2>some of the authors really got in on comparing these

0:25:56.080 --> 0:25:59.200
<v Speaker 2>crabs to humans, saying that they were essentially getting dressed

0:25:59.440 --> 0:26:01.840
<v Speaker 2>when they they put stuff on. And I guess it's

0:26:01.880 --> 0:26:05.800
<v Speaker 2>hard not to make that comparison, do I look all right?

0:26:06.160 --> 0:26:06.640
<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

0:26:06.720 --> 0:26:09.399
<v Speaker 2>Now, most famously, I think most of the when you

0:26:09.400 --> 0:26:12.200
<v Speaker 2>hear people talk about the decorator crebs, we're generally talking

0:26:12.240 --> 0:26:15.760
<v Speaker 2>about living material that has been added. So you know,

0:26:15.800 --> 0:26:18.680
<v Speaker 2>there might be some sort of algae that they're stripping

0:26:18.680 --> 0:26:20.680
<v Speaker 2>and sticking to them, or they're getting a little piece

0:26:20.720 --> 0:26:24.880
<v Speaker 2>of an anemone or a bit of a sponge slapping

0:26:24.880 --> 0:26:29.720
<v Speaker 2>that onto the shell, essentially becoming a mobile habitat for

0:26:29.880 --> 0:26:33.520
<v Speaker 2>sessile marine organisms. So not the bones, but the actual

0:26:33.640 --> 0:26:35.240
<v Speaker 2>living meat of their environment.

0:26:35.480 --> 0:26:37.919
<v Speaker 4>Yes, I like this reframing here. So they are getting

0:26:37.920 --> 0:26:38.320
<v Speaker 4>the meat.

0:26:38.640 --> 0:26:41.960
<v Speaker 2>Yes, And as Wixton pointed out in that paper I

0:26:42.000 --> 0:26:45.800
<v Speaker 2>referenced earlier, the exact favored materials are going to differ

0:26:45.800 --> 0:26:48.439
<v Speaker 2>from species to species, and it's also going to be

0:26:48.480 --> 0:26:51.800
<v Speaker 2>situationally specific. So I don't know if you could even

0:26:51.920 --> 0:26:53.520
<v Speaker 2>maybe even press it as far as to say, like

0:26:53.600 --> 0:26:55.680
<v Speaker 2>individually specific, but it's going to be based on what's

0:26:55.680 --> 0:26:59.520
<v Speaker 2>available to them as well, not so much the individual preference,

0:26:59.520 --> 0:27:02.600
<v Speaker 2>but you know, just what do they have in their area.

0:27:02.680 --> 0:27:06.160
<v Speaker 2>In general, they tend to favor organic matter that they

0:27:06.160 --> 0:27:10.040
<v Speaker 2>can strip apart with their claws, sponges again, algae and

0:27:10.080 --> 0:27:14.120
<v Speaker 2>stuff like that. They will also go for, quote, according

0:27:14.119 --> 0:27:19.600
<v Speaker 2>to Wixton, tubes secreted by polykeet worms, which sounds super

0:27:19.640 --> 0:27:23.119
<v Speaker 2>gross at first, it's less gross when you look into it. Basically,

0:27:23.200 --> 0:27:27.560
<v Speaker 2>these are these self secreted mineral tubes that some polykeet

0:27:27.600 --> 0:27:31.320
<v Speaker 2>worms secrete and then live in. Other worms just live

0:27:31.320 --> 0:27:34.280
<v Speaker 2>in tubes that they've bored into a substrate. So we're

0:27:34.280 --> 0:27:38.600
<v Speaker 2>talking about little mineralized worm straws turned stylish accessories for

0:27:38.680 --> 0:27:39.680
<v Speaker 2>the decorator crabs.

0:27:39.760 --> 0:27:40.440
<v Speaker 4>Wow, this wreck.

0:27:40.760 --> 0:27:43.800
<v Speaker 3>This reminds me of the caterpillar from the last time,

0:27:43.800 --> 0:27:45.800
<v Speaker 3>which had all these things that looked like little orange

0:27:45.800 --> 0:27:50.000
<v Speaker 3>straws attached to it, but it was the spider body integument,

0:27:50.119 --> 0:27:52.439
<v Speaker 3>like from the spider molting. It would have a tube

0:27:52.520 --> 0:27:54.679
<v Speaker 3>left over that I guess used to be part of

0:27:54.680 --> 0:27:57.120
<v Speaker 3>a spider's leg and then the spider outgrew it.

0:27:57.359 --> 0:27:57.560
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:27:57.680 --> 0:28:00.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you can look up pictures of this, and some

0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:03.480
<v Speaker 2>of these pictures are wild and also, I guess it

0:28:03.520 --> 0:28:07.720
<v Speaker 2>makes sense. We talk about decoration, but it is camouflage,

0:28:07.800 --> 0:28:09.919
<v Speaker 2>so some of these it's sometimes kind of hard to

0:28:10.080 --> 0:28:12.200
<v Speaker 2>really pick out and figure out what you're looking at.

0:28:12.200 --> 0:28:14.639
<v Speaker 2>But you do see these what look like tiny, little,

0:28:15.240 --> 0:28:19.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, environment colored straws stuck to the crabs bodies.

0:28:20.280 --> 0:28:23.359
<v Speaker 2>They'll also make use of other materials, though plant leaves

0:28:23.359 --> 0:28:26.879
<v Speaker 2>have available, and in captive environments where they've been stripped

0:28:26.880 --> 0:28:31.520
<v Speaker 2>of their decorations, Wiston points out that they'll use the

0:28:31.640 --> 0:28:36.040
<v Speaker 2>likes of quote, torn sea pansies, strips of paper, chips

0:28:36.040 --> 0:28:39.720
<v Speaker 2>of cement from the aquarium wall, and even bits of hamburger.

0:28:40.080 --> 0:28:40.720
<v Speaker 4>Uh.

0:28:40.800 --> 0:28:43.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't know. I guess they put hamburger in

0:28:43.160 --> 0:28:46.000
<v Speaker 2>there for food and they're like, what is this it'll do?

0:28:46.120 --> 0:28:47.320
<v Speaker 2>And they stick it to their bodies.

0:28:47.640 --> 0:28:49.760
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I want more detail on the hamburger.

0:28:50.040 --> 0:28:52.440
<v Speaker 2>I couldn't find any additional day. I think it's just

0:28:52.760 --> 0:28:54.800
<v Speaker 2>they put hamburger in there, I guess to see how

0:28:54.800 --> 0:28:57.080
<v Speaker 2>they would respond to the meat, and at least one

0:28:57.120 --> 0:28:58.840
<v Speaker 2>of the crabs is like, okay, this.

0:28:58.760 --> 0:29:00.880
<v Speaker 4>Will do to meat. Yeah.

0:29:01.080 --> 0:29:04.560
<v Speaker 2>These to be clear situations where their actual decorations were

0:29:04.560 --> 0:29:08.239
<v Speaker 2>taken away from them, so they did not have the

0:29:08.280 --> 0:29:12.840
<v Speaker 2>option of using their normal, like first choice decorations. Now,

0:29:12.880 --> 0:29:15.520
<v Speaker 2>they'll certainly make use of shell fragments. But as for

0:29:15.720 --> 0:29:19.120
<v Speaker 2>actual bones, if we're going to be like real strict

0:29:19.360 --> 0:29:25.120
<v Speaker 2>about the episode title here, it seems possible that bones

0:29:25.160 --> 0:29:29.200
<v Speaker 2>could be covered by the frequently cited miscellaneous detritus that

0:29:29.200 --> 0:29:32.560
<v Speaker 2>the crabs use. But it would seem that actual vertebrate

0:29:32.600 --> 0:29:37.440
<v Speaker 2>bones on the whole are just not desirable. And part

0:29:37.440 --> 0:29:39.480
<v Speaker 2>of this may be that, you know, sometimes bones are

0:29:39.520 --> 0:29:44.640
<v Speaker 2>too large, they're too massive. Other cases, the coloration might

0:29:44.920 --> 0:29:49.240
<v Speaker 2>not be ideal because again the crab seems to be selecting,

0:29:49.360 --> 0:29:51.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, based on what looks like my environment, and

0:29:51.480 --> 0:29:53.640
<v Speaker 2>so you can imagine that if a bone is too

0:29:53.680 --> 0:29:56.280
<v Speaker 2>bright looking, then well that might just not that might

0:29:56.320 --> 0:30:00.840
<v Speaker 2>not pass the test for the decorator crab in question. Now,

0:30:00.880 --> 0:30:05.720
<v Speaker 2>based on researcher observations of decoration and captivity, which we decided,

0:30:05.880 --> 0:30:08.800
<v Speaker 2>it seems possible that, okay, maybe you could manipulate one

0:30:08.800 --> 0:30:12.080
<v Speaker 2>into using tiny bones. But that seems like cheating. I mean,

0:30:12.080 --> 0:30:13.880
<v Speaker 2>it's like they're not going to put Hamburger on.

0:30:13.840 --> 0:30:14.920
<v Speaker 4>Their bodies in the wild.

0:30:15.640 --> 0:30:17.800
<v Speaker 2>So if you were able to trick one into using

0:30:17.840 --> 0:30:21.080
<v Speaker 2>bones well in a captive environment, that doesn't really count.

0:30:21.480 --> 0:30:23.520
<v Speaker 3>Well you've convinced me Rob. I did not think of

0:30:23.600 --> 0:30:26.440
<v Speaker 3>these these animals in a creepy way before I put

0:30:26.480 --> 0:30:28.760
<v Speaker 3>them in the cute box in my brain. But I'm

0:30:28.800 --> 0:30:31.000
<v Speaker 3>officially taking them out of the cute box. Or I'll

0:30:31.000 --> 0:30:33.280
<v Speaker 3>take half of one out of the cute box and

0:30:33.320 --> 0:30:35.360
<v Speaker 3>put the leave one half in there, put the other

0:30:35.360 --> 0:30:36.440
<v Speaker 3>half in the creepy box.

0:30:36.600 --> 0:30:38.719
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. Aren't all crabs kind of in the

0:30:38.880 --> 0:30:41.400
<v Speaker 2>creepy and cute box at the same time. That's kind

0:30:41.400 --> 0:30:42.479
<v Speaker 2>of the crab box, isn't it.

0:30:42.640 --> 0:30:43.000
<v Speaker 4>Maybe?

0:30:43.120 --> 0:30:46.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, At any rate, they're pretty fun.

0:30:46.480 --> 0:30:46.720
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:30:46.960 --> 0:30:50.320
<v Speaker 2>They certainly do cover themselves with a mix of living flesh,

0:30:50.400 --> 0:30:54.360
<v Speaker 2>dead flesh, and various forms of organic and inorganic detritus.

0:30:54.520 --> 0:30:56.320
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, certainly close enough for me.

0:30:56.680 --> 0:30:58.040
<v Speaker 4>Bone collector certified.

0:30:58.280 --> 0:31:01.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, all right, And then I want to get back

0:31:01.200 --> 0:31:03.000
<v Speaker 2>to one that I might have mentioned this one in

0:31:03.080 --> 0:31:06.280
<v Speaker 2>passing in the first episode. Uh, certainly one that's been

0:31:06.280 --> 0:31:08.880
<v Speaker 2>on my mind the whole time, especially when we're talking

0:31:08.880 --> 0:31:12.280
<v Speaker 2>about a creature's midden, and that is the midden of

0:31:12.480 --> 0:31:15.840
<v Speaker 2>the octopus, and this one was that. Yeah, this was

0:31:15.840 --> 0:31:18.040
<v Speaker 2>one of my first picks for the series, as it's

0:31:18.080 --> 0:31:21.240
<v Speaker 2>a pretty great example of a creature that not only

0:31:21.400 --> 0:31:25.760
<v Speaker 2>passively accumulates bones and bone like remains, but also makes

0:31:25.920 --> 0:31:26.480
<v Speaker 2>use of them.

0:31:26.800 --> 0:31:28.760
<v Speaker 3>Oh okay, so it could could be in sort of

0:31:28.840 --> 0:31:32.160
<v Speaker 3>both of our categories from the first episode, both the

0:31:32.440 --> 0:31:36.320
<v Speaker 3>chaotically assembled midden as a leftover of other activities, but

0:31:36.360 --> 0:31:39.600
<v Speaker 3>then also something that serves a purpose of its own.

0:31:39.680 --> 0:31:41.520
<v Speaker 3>It's not just a trash heap.

0:31:41.640 --> 0:31:43.720
<v Speaker 2>Right right, it is. It's in this case it is

0:31:43.760 --> 0:31:45.560
<v Speaker 2>a trash sheep, but then a trash heap that is

0:31:45.680 --> 0:31:51.240
<v Speaker 2>utilized in environment manipulation and dim manipulation, which we'll get

0:31:51.280 --> 0:31:54.240
<v Speaker 2>into in just a second. All right, So, different varieties

0:31:54.280 --> 0:31:58.480
<v Speaker 2>of octopus make use of mittens. This includes the common octopus,

0:31:58.560 --> 0:32:01.960
<v Speaker 2>the giant Pacific octopus, the gloomy octopus, and the Caribbean

0:32:02.000 --> 0:32:05.400
<v Speaker 2>two spot octopus just as a few examples. And we'll

0:32:05.400 --> 0:32:08.800
<v Speaker 2>get into some more specific examples here in a second.

0:32:08.920 --> 0:32:12.960
<v Speaker 2>And an octopus's midden is primarily the accumulation of shells

0:32:12.960 --> 0:32:16.000
<v Speaker 2>and bones. Outside of its den, there are also going

0:32:16.080 --> 0:32:19.640
<v Speaker 2>to be bits of rock and perhaps bits of coral

0:32:19.680 --> 0:32:21.480
<v Speaker 2>and so forth. They are kind of like mixed up

0:32:21.520 --> 0:32:24.880
<v Speaker 2>in it as well. One thing that was interesting This

0:32:25.080 --> 0:32:27.360
<v Speaker 2>is a kind of a tangent, but I think it

0:32:27.400 --> 0:32:31.800
<v Speaker 2>reveals a lot about the formation of middens. In some

0:32:32.000 --> 0:32:36.240
<v Speaker 2>cases the shells don't accumulate as much because hermit crabs

0:32:36.280 --> 0:32:41.120
<v Speaker 2>carry them off. So Richard F. Ambrose discussed this in

0:32:41.160 --> 0:32:45.000
<v Speaker 2>a nineteen eighty three article for Marine Behavior and Physiology,

0:32:45.760 --> 0:32:51.520
<v Speaker 2>citing studies of Virel's two spot octopus, which only have,

0:32:52.080 --> 0:32:56.800
<v Speaker 2>according to this older paper, some discarded remnants at their

0:32:56.840 --> 0:33:01.040
<v Speaker 2>dens twenty percent of the time without the materials forming

0:33:01.120 --> 0:33:05.120
<v Speaker 2>true middens. So again, this would seem to be a

0:33:05.200 --> 0:33:08.640
<v Speaker 2>variety of octopus that doesn't really do much with mittens.

0:33:09.120 --> 0:33:10.800
<v Speaker 2>And the big reason for this would seem to be

0:33:10.800 --> 0:33:13.720
<v Speaker 2>that the snails make up an extra large part of

0:33:13.760 --> 0:33:18.840
<v Speaker 2>this specific octopus species diet much more than other octopus species,

0:33:19.240 --> 0:33:23.000
<v Speaker 2>and as a result, it has mostly shells that are

0:33:23.720 --> 0:33:26.920
<v Speaker 2>hermit crabs. They get stolen and carried away by marine

0:33:26.920 --> 0:33:27.640
<v Speaker 2>hermit crabs.

0:33:27.720 --> 0:33:31.440
<v Speaker 3>Well, isn't that a beautiful little emergent efficiency in nature,

0:33:31.760 --> 0:33:35.160
<v Speaker 3>Like exactly the main kind of trash you produce is

0:33:35.240 --> 0:33:38.840
<v Speaker 3>exactly what some other organism in your environment wants as

0:33:38.840 --> 0:33:39.240
<v Speaker 3>a home.

0:33:39.800 --> 0:33:42.200
<v Speaker 2>Yes, though I don't know in this case those as

0:33:42.200 --> 0:33:45.160
<v Speaker 2>we'll look at some of these other examples. Other midden

0:33:45.200 --> 0:33:50.960
<v Speaker 2>producing octopuses do make use of their heap of bones

0:33:51.000 --> 0:33:54.280
<v Speaker 2>and shells, and you know, some of those shells are

0:33:54.280 --> 0:33:56.040
<v Speaker 2>carried away if they happen to be mollis shells, and

0:33:56.040 --> 0:33:58.600
<v Speaker 2>there are hermit crabs in their environment, but they're able

0:33:58.640 --> 0:34:02.200
<v Speaker 2>to do more with them, whereas this particular species Varil's

0:34:02.200 --> 0:34:05.080
<v Speaker 2>two spot octopus, I guess just doesn't have that option

0:34:05.440 --> 0:34:08.279
<v Speaker 2>if most of it's most of it's midden or most

0:34:08.320 --> 0:34:10.680
<v Speaker 2>of what would be its midden are carried away by hermits.

0:34:11.680 --> 0:34:14.640
<v Speaker 3>So one octopus's trash does not ever get to become

0:34:14.680 --> 0:34:17.400
<v Speaker 3>that same octopus as treasure because it was already treasure

0:34:17.480 --> 0:34:19.040
<v Speaker 3>to a decapod that took it.

0:34:19.120 --> 0:34:24.160
<v Speaker 2>Right right, So so yeah, on one level, the octopus

0:34:24.239 --> 0:34:27.879
<v Speaker 2>is midden is yeah, definitely this bone and shell deposit. Again,

0:34:27.920 --> 0:34:31.960
<v Speaker 2>in keeping with our her mythic ideas of dragons layers,

0:34:32.400 --> 0:34:35.799
<v Speaker 2>the cave of Carabanog and so forth, you know, look

0:34:35.840 --> 0:34:39.439
<v Speaker 2>at the bones. And I have to mention that every

0:34:39.480 --> 0:34:42.840
<v Speaker 2>time I've had the opportunity to go snorkeling, I always

0:34:43.080 --> 0:34:46.200
<v Speaker 2>keep a lookout for anything that might be an octopus midden,

0:34:46.840 --> 0:34:49.600
<v Speaker 2>because to observe an octopus in the lie in the

0:34:49.640 --> 0:34:52.680
<v Speaker 2>wild is a most special thing. And the one time

0:34:52.719 --> 0:34:57.200
<v Speaker 2>I really got to observe an octopus out out in

0:34:57.239 --> 0:35:00.960
<v Speaker 2>the wild while snorkeling during daylight, that was one of

0:35:00.960 --> 0:35:03.320
<v Speaker 2>the most magical experiences of my life. It was just amazing.

0:35:04.160 --> 0:35:07.080
<v Speaker 2>But of course octopuses are not always active when we

0:35:07.160 --> 0:35:10.080
<v Speaker 2>snorkelers are out, and even when they are, they are

0:35:10.160 --> 0:35:13.920
<v Speaker 2>masters of disguise in their environments and we're merely humans.

0:35:14.200 --> 0:35:18.560
<v Speaker 2>So I am not good at identifying an octopus as

0:35:18.600 --> 0:35:19.640
<v Speaker 2>midden in the wild.

0:35:19.760 --> 0:35:19.960
<v Speaker 4>You know.

0:35:20.120 --> 0:35:21.520
<v Speaker 2>I'll look at things and be like, that kind of

0:35:21.520 --> 0:35:23.880
<v Speaker 2>looks like it could be a heap of shells, that

0:35:23.920 --> 0:35:27.080
<v Speaker 2>could be some bones. Maybe that is an octopus's midden,

0:35:27.120 --> 0:35:29.560
<v Speaker 2>but you know, nothing ever comes out of it.

0:35:29.640 --> 0:35:31.719
<v Speaker 3>Well, that actually makes me wonder would they make any

0:35:31.760 --> 0:35:34.280
<v Speaker 3>attempt to disguise their middens.

0:35:34.960 --> 0:35:39.480
<v Speaker 2>As far as I know, not intentionally, you know, I

0:35:39.480 --> 0:35:42.640
<v Speaker 2>guess part of the reality is there's you know, things

0:35:42.640 --> 0:35:44.960
<v Speaker 2>are eaten all the time, things are torn apart all

0:35:45.000 --> 0:35:48.120
<v Speaker 2>the time in a marine environment, especially in like a

0:35:48.719 --> 0:35:52.680
<v Speaker 2>really diverse coral environment. So uh yeah, But this is

0:35:52.800 --> 0:35:54.799
<v Speaker 2>I guess, kind of an open question, like are there

0:35:54.840 --> 0:35:59.000
<v Speaker 2>going to be organisms that might identify an octopus as

0:35:59.080 --> 0:36:02.000
<v Speaker 2>midden and therefore try to take advantage of it or

0:36:02.040 --> 0:36:07.760
<v Speaker 2>steer clear of it? I would think not so much,

0:36:08.080 --> 0:36:10.359
<v Speaker 2>because one is, we'll discuss here in a minute. One

0:36:10.360 --> 0:36:13.319
<v Speaker 2>of the key things that the octopus does was with

0:36:13.400 --> 0:36:17.360
<v Speaker 2>the midden is disguise its layer and fortify its layer.

0:36:17.640 --> 0:36:19.520
<v Speaker 4>Okay, that makes sense, And I guess.

0:36:19.520 --> 0:36:21.279
<v Speaker 3>As you alluded to a minute ago, you know, there's

0:36:21.280 --> 0:36:23.279
<v Speaker 3>gonna be a lot of shells and other bones and

0:36:23.280 --> 0:36:26.279
<v Speaker 3>hard parts floating around or settling on the bottom of

0:36:26.280 --> 0:36:29.719
<v Speaker 3>the ocean anyway, So like it wouldn't be unusual to see.

0:36:29.520 --> 0:36:31.000
<v Speaker 4>Those for another organism.

0:36:31.080 --> 0:36:33.920
<v Speaker 3>It's not like it's not like when we see a

0:36:33.920 --> 0:36:35.080
<v Speaker 3>bone pile in a movie.

0:36:35.560 --> 0:36:48.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Now, just because I can't spot an octopus midden

0:36:48.680 --> 0:36:52.480
<v Speaker 2>in the wild or haven't had the luck of spotting one,

0:36:53.520 --> 0:36:57.080
<v Speaker 2>that doesn't mean other humans, actual researchers and experts can't.

0:36:57.120 --> 0:37:01.680
<v Speaker 2>Because it kind of much like the example of the

0:37:01.680 --> 0:37:06.120
<v Speaker 2>cave hyena bone collections we discussed in last episode, Octopus

0:37:06.160 --> 0:37:10.840
<v Speaker 2>middens can actually tell us a lot about what octopus

0:37:10.880 --> 0:37:13.799
<v Speaker 2>species are eating, you know, it gives us a little

0:37:13.840 --> 0:37:16.120
<v Speaker 2>insight into what's on the menu for them, and it

0:37:16.160 --> 0:37:20.400
<v Speaker 2>can also tell us what octopus individuals are eating. And

0:37:20.520 --> 0:37:22.759
<v Speaker 2>this latter point is actually really key.

0:37:23.080 --> 0:37:25.160
<v Speaker 4>Oh you can go through their trash. Yeah, yeah, you.

0:37:25.160 --> 0:37:27.799
<v Speaker 2>Can go through their trash. And it's telling again, not

0:37:27.840 --> 0:37:32.080
<v Speaker 2>just about a species, but also about individuals. As discussed

0:37:32.120 --> 0:37:36.080
<v Speaker 2>in individual prey Choices of Octopuses Are they Generalist or Specialist?

0:37:36.560 --> 0:37:39.960
<v Speaker 2>By Mather at All, published twenty twelve in the journal

0:37:40.000 --> 0:37:43.719
<v Speaker 2>Current Zoology, The question they pose here may have to

0:37:43.760 --> 0:37:46.600
<v Speaker 2>be answered in terms of both species and individual given

0:37:46.960 --> 0:37:50.719
<v Speaker 2>that we're dealing with intelligent and adaptive predators that may

0:37:50.760 --> 0:37:55.200
<v Speaker 2>make their choices based not only on localized prey of availability,

0:37:55.480 --> 0:37:59.800
<v Speaker 2>but also individual personality differences, which I thought was a

0:37:59.880 --> 0:38:03.640
<v Speaker 2>very very interesting consideration. Like, we're dealing with a creature

0:38:03.640 --> 0:38:06.840
<v Speaker 2>that is again highly adaptive, may have a lot to

0:38:06.920 --> 0:38:09.399
<v Speaker 2>choose from in a given environment, and some of its

0:38:09.480 --> 0:38:14.120
<v Speaker 2>choices might not just be part of a basic equation

0:38:14.480 --> 0:38:18.360
<v Speaker 2>of like availability plus ability, and you know the abilities

0:38:18.360 --> 0:38:20.920
<v Speaker 2>of the species, but also like, what does this individual

0:38:21.080 --> 0:38:24.120
<v Speaker 2>like to do? What has it chosen to explore and

0:38:24.239 --> 0:38:26.440
<v Speaker 2>then take advantage.

0:38:25.880 --> 0:38:29.319
<v Speaker 3>Of Octopuses are intelligent enough that they might actually be

0:38:29.480 --> 0:38:31.240
<v Speaker 3>quirky individually quirky.

0:38:31.719 --> 0:38:35.759
<v Speaker 2>Yes, Yeah, another paper I looked two thousand and eighths

0:38:37.080 --> 0:38:40.719
<v Speaker 2>Octopus vulgaris. That's the common octopus, by the way, in

0:38:40.760 --> 0:38:44.680
<v Speaker 2>the Caribbean is a specializing generalist by Anderson at All,

0:38:44.719 --> 0:38:48.480
<v Speaker 2>published in the Marine Ecology Progress series. They looked at

0:38:48.480 --> 0:38:51.200
<v Speaker 2>the remains of six hundred and forty nine prey items

0:38:51.239 --> 0:38:54.160
<v Speaker 2>gathered from the middens of thirty eight dens in a

0:38:54.239 --> 0:38:57.520
<v Speaker 2>small area off the Caribbean island of bon Air, and

0:38:57.560 --> 0:39:01.920
<v Speaker 2>they these middens revealed thirty five species of gastropods it's

0:39:02.040 --> 0:39:05.799
<v Speaker 2>nineteen percent of the total, nineteen bivalves fifty percent, and

0:39:05.880 --> 0:39:10.040
<v Speaker 2>twenty one crustaceans thirty percent. And this particular study argued that, yes,

0:39:10.040 --> 0:39:13.719
<v Speaker 2>the common octopus is a specialized gennalist, with the population

0:39:13.880 --> 0:39:16.800
<v Speaker 2>as a whole boasting a wide choice of prey items,

0:39:17.120 --> 0:39:21.359
<v Speaker 2>but with narrower focus for the individual. So that would

0:39:21.360 --> 0:39:23.400
<v Speaker 2>seem to line up with what this other paper was

0:39:23.400 --> 0:39:24.600
<v Speaker 2>saying as well, But.

0:39:24.560 --> 0:39:28.160
<v Speaker 3>A minute ago you were talking about the actual benefits

0:39:28.200 --> 0:39:30.600
<v Speaker 3>of an octopus as mitten, so that it wasn't just

0:39:30.680 --> 0:39:33.839
<v Speaker 3>a trash heap. It is thought to do something for

0:39:33.880 --> 0:39:35.360
<v Speaker 3>the octopus.

0:39:34.880 --> 0:39:35.399
<v Speaker 4>That's right.

0:39:35.560 --> 0:39:37.799
<v Speaker 2>And then this we can really think of it in

0:39:37.880 --> 0:39:41.080
<v Speaker 2>terms of a dragon or a killer rabbit. So your

0:39:41.160 --> 0:39:43.960
<v Speaker 2>killer rabbit or your dragon is producing all of these bones.

0:39:44.160 --> 0:39:47.880
<v Speaker 2>But imagine that the mythic monster in question here, first

0:39:47.880 --> 0:39:51.560
<v Speaker 2>of all, pushes or blasts all the bones that they

0:39:51.600 --> 0:39:54.320
<v Speaker 2>produce outside of their den. They don't want to sleep

0:39:54.320 --> 0:39:57.839
<v Speaker 2>on all those bones necessarily, And in the octopus's case,

0:39:57.880 --> 0:40:01.239
<v Speaker 2>they can use, you know, their jets to things around.

0:40:01.640 --> 0:40:04.520
<v Speaker 2>So you're accumulating your waist out there in front of

0:40:04.560 --> 0:40:08.000
<v Speaker 2>your den. With the dragon or the rabbit, we're talking

0:40:08.000 --> 0:40:10.040
<v Speaker 2>about a cave, and with the octopus, you know, we're

0:40:10.040 --> 0:40:14.440
<v Speaker 2>talking about some sort of indention in the sand, the

0:40:14.440 --> 0:40:16.879
<v Speaker 2>coral and so forth, you know, the rock, some sort

0:40:16.920 --> 0:40:19.919
<v Speaker 2>of little den they have there with sand and other

0:40:19.960 --> 0:40:23.480
<v Speaker 2>detritus out there already, and then an ever growing pile

0:40:23.960 --> 0:40:29.200
<v Speaker 2>of bones and bits of shell and so forth, and

0:40:29.280 --> 0:40:33.400
<v Speaker 2>so yeah, it's not just a waste disposal byproduct, but

0:40:33.440 --> 0:40:36.600
<v Speaker 2>it's also a source of defense and shelter because the

0:40:36.640 --> 0:40:39.040
<v Speaker 2>heap of shells and bones are then used by the

0:40:39.080 --> 0:40:42.400
<v Speaker 2>octopus to alter the environment. They can use it to

0:40:42.560 --> 0:40:46.160
<v Speaker 2>narrow or even block the entrance to the octopus's den,

0:40:46.760 --> 0:40:53.640
<v Speaker 2>camouflaging it and also fortifying it against incursion. So such

0:40:53.680 --> 0:40:56.520
<v Speaker 2>a den like it provides them a place of refuge,

0:40:56.960 --> 0:41:00.439
<v Speaker 2>but it can also serve a very much more important part,

0:41:00.800 --> 0:41:04.400
<v Speaker 2>like the most important part really in the octopus's life cycle.

0:41:04.680 --> 0:41:07.799
<v Speaker 2>It can serve as the place where a female octopus

0:41:08.120 --> 0:41:12.759
<v Speaker 2>lays her eggs and eventually her final resting place as

0:41:12.800 --> 0:41:16.040
<v Speaker 2>she dies tending to them. So most species of octopus

0:41:16.080 --> 0:41:19.799
<v Speaker 2>only reproduce once in their lifetime, and they enter a

0:41:19.840 --> 0:41:25.279
<v Speaker 2>fatal sinessence phase after laying that clutch of eggs. So

0:41:25.880 --> 0:41:29.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's rather interesting. It becomes their home, it

0:41:29.320 --> 0:41:32.440
<v Speaker 2>kind of becomes their tomb, but is also the place

0:41:32.520 --> 0:41:37.720
<v Speaker 2>from which the next phase of the life cycle will emerge.

0:41:37.920 --> 0:41:41.440
<v Speaker 2>And then afterwards, an octopuss den might be reused by

0:41:41.480 --> 0:41:45.239
<v Speaker 2>a new octopus seeking out a place to hold up,

0:41:45.760 --> 0:41:47.879
<v Speaker 2>or of course it could be inhabited by various other

0:41:47.960 --> 0:41:50.920
<v Speaker 2>marine organisms looking for some sort of little place to

0:41:51.040 --> 0:41:55.560
<v Speaker 2>burrow away. But in comparing the octopus is Midden to

0:41:56.040 --> 0:41:58.799
<v Speaker 2>dragons and other fantasy creatures. I think there's an opportunity there,

0:41:58.840 --> 0:42:02.280
<v Speaker 2>And I wonder if any body out there has explored

0:42:02.280 --> 0:42:05.160
<v Speaker 2>this idea, like some sort of dragon that uses its

0:42:05.239 --> 0:42:09.440
<v Speaker 2>bones for some sort of purpose, you know, either fortifying

0:42:09.440 --> 0:42:11.840
<v Speaker 2>its position or I don't know, I guess they're dragons.

0:42:11.840 --> 0:42:14.200
<v Speaker 2>They could potentially do something magical with them, like raise

0:42:14.239 --> 0:42:17.439
<v Speaker 2>all those bones. I imagine there's easily some cases where

0:42:17.480 --> 0:42:21.480
<v Speaker 2>that goes on. But the octopus would argue, no, the

0:42:21.480 --> 0:42:24.239
<v Speaker 2>best thing you can do is create. You end up

0:42:24.239 --> 0:42:27.800
<v Speaker 2>with this big, like sifting pile of bones and sand

0:42:27.960 --> 0:42:31.160
<v Speaker 2>and other materials, and you can just use that as

0:42:31.280 --> 0:42:35.239
<v Speaker 2>kind of like the door to your layer, opening it,

0:42:35.360 --> 0:42:38.000
<v Speaker 2>closing it, partially obscuring and so forth.

0:42:38.360 --> 0:42:40.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so this is kind of similar to the wasp

0:42:40.239 --> 0:42:41.040
<v Speaker 3>and ant example.

0:42:41.080 --> 0:42:41.200
<v Speaker 1>Here.

0:42:41.239 --> 0:42:44.160
<v Speaker 3>Once again it's a case of defensive use of the

0:42:44.640 --> 0:42:46.800
<v Speaker 3>bones or remains of another animal.

0:42:47.360 --> 0:42:50.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah, you know, and in this case that

0:42:51.200 --> 0:42:55.240
<v Speaker 2>these bones are the result of their own consumption, unlike

0:42:55.280 --> 0:42:59.319
<v Speaker 2>the ants. But yeah, they are using them for a

0:42:59.360 --> 0:43:03.480
<v Speaker 2>novel purpose. To come back to your Texas chainsaw massacre example,

0:43:03.520 --> 0:43:06.200
<v Speaker 2>it would be like if the saw your family. We're

0:43:06.280 --> 0:43:08.840
<v Speaker 2>using the bones not only as decorations, but as like

0:43:09.000 --> 0:43:13.360
<v Speaker 2>actual like fences to keep people out, like physical barriers.

0:43:15.040 --> 0:43:16.640
<v Speaker 2>I guess that's the only thing that makes sense. Oh,

0:43:16.880 --> 0:43:19.560
<v Speaker 2>I can't really say environmental disguise, but.

0:43:20.560 --> 0:43:23.200
<v Speaker 3>Well, I was thinking, like, what about lining their driveway

0:43:23.239 --> 0:43:25.720
<v Speaker 3>with bones in a way that like narrows the approach

0:43:25.800 --> 0:43:28.520
<v Speaker 3>of vehicles to the home. You know, you're trying to

0:43:28.560 --> 0:43:32.480
<v Speaker 3>funnel them into a particular area. Yeah, so yeah, you

0:43:32.520 --> 0:43:34.880
<v Speaker 3>said that the octopuses could like narrow you know, or

0:43:34.920 --> 0:43:37.360
<v Speaker 3>control the shape of the opening or the aperture to

0:43:37.400 --> 0:43:38.680
<v Speaker 3>their den with the bones.

0:43:39.680 --> 0:43:41.000
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yeah, yeah, I could see that.

0:43:41.400 --> 0:43:44.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's a lot we can learn from the Sawyer clan.

0:43:44.360 --> 0:43:45.400
<v Speaker 2>I think that's what we're saying.

0:43:46.000 --> 0:43:48.640
<v Speaker 3>Putting a bunch of sharp bones out on the road

0:43:48.760 --> 0:43:51.040
<v Speaker 3>in front of the house to puncture the tires of

0:43:51.080 --> 0:43:55.200
<v Speaker 3>trucks that are going by. Yeah yeah, I guess that's

0:43:55.280 --> 0:43:57.480
<v Speaker 3>that's getting away from the octopus example.

0:43:57.480 --> 0:44:01.000
<v Speaker 2>But well, things become increasingly more complicated when you start

0:44:01.239 --> 0:44:03.080
<v Speaker 2>injecting them into the human world. But I think the

0:44:03.120 --> 0:44:04.040
<v Speaker 2>spirit is still there.

0:44:04.520 --> 0:44:10.440
<v Speaker 3>You know, here's a funny thing. Imagine octopuses they developed

0:44:10.480 --> 0:44:14.560
<v Speaker 3>their own technological civilization, their own art, their own genres

0:44:14.600 --> 0:44:17.040
<v Speaker 3>of literature. They discovered that they had a taste for

0:44:17.120 --> 0:44:20.359
<v Speaker 3>horror as well. They liked being scared for fun. Now,

0:44:20.440 --> 0:44:25.239
<v Speaker 3>try to imagine the culture's equivalent of bone imagery, because

0:44:25.239 --> 0:44:27.840
<v Speaker 3>they've only got one hard part, right, it's just the beak,

0:44:28.280 --> 0:44:31.400
<v Speaker 3>So they couldn't have a whole bunch of different bones

0:44:31.440 --> 0:44:33.839
<v Speaker 3>for horror imagery. It would just be beaks.

0:44:34.320 --> 0:44:35.120
<v Speaker 2>I guess you're right.

0:44:35.200 --> 0:44:38.560
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, their pirate flag is just a beak. Every piece

0:44:38.560 --> 0:44:41.120
<v Speaker 3>of skullar bone imagery we have could only be beak.

0:44:42.480 --> 0:44:44.000
<v Speaker 2>That would be their Halloween decoration.

0:44:44.160 --> 0:44:47.160
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, all right? Does that do it for the bone collectors?

0:44:47.400 --> 0:44:50.680
<v Speaker 2>I think it does now. Folks out there, you might

0:44:50.760 --> 0:44:53.200
<v Speaker 2>have some other examples that have come to mind. You're like, hey,

0:44:53.200 --> 0:44:55.280
<v Speaker 2>what about this organism? What about that one? Well, write

0:44:55.280 --> 0:44:58.239
<v Speaker 2>in because we would love to either discuss those on

0:44:58.520 --> 0:45:00.880
<v Speaker 2>future episodes of Listener, may here in the Stuff to

0:45:00.880 --> 0:45:03.600
<v Speaker 2>Blow your Mind podcast feed, or who knows, if we

0:45:03.640 --> 0:45:07.160
<v Speaker 2>get enough recommendations, maybe we have the ammo to do

0:45:07.200 --> 0:45:10.719
<v Speaker 2>a part three, either later this year or next year

0:45:10.760 --> 0:45:12.520
<v Speaker 2>when Halloween rolls around once again.

0:45:12.800 --> 0:45:13.680
<v Speaker 4>Oh yeah.

0:45:13.719 --> 0:45:16.040
<v Speaker 2>In the meantime, we would like to remind everyone out

0:45:16.040 --> 0:45:17.960
<v Speaker 2>there that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a

0:45:18.000 --> 0:45:20.680
<v Speaker 2>science and culture podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursday,

0:45:20.719 --> 0:45:23.600
<v Speaker 2>short form episodes on Wednesdays and on Fridays. We set

0:45:23.640 --> 0:45:25.839
<v Speaker 2>aside most serious concerns to just talk about a weird

0:45:25.880 --> 0:45:28.080
<v Speaker 2>film on Weird House Cinema.

0:45:28.360 --> 0:45:31.960
<v Speaker 3>Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

0:45:32.320 --> 0:45:34.000
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0:45:34.000 --> 0:45:36.919
<v Speaker 3>with feedback on this episode or any other, to send

0:45:36.960 --> 0:45:40.319
<v Speaker 3>us your own example of a bone collecting organism that

0:45:40.360 --> 0:45:43.839
<v Speaker 3>does something interesting with the remains of other animals. If

0:45:43.840 --> 0:45:45.920
<v Speaker 3>you would like to suggest a topic for the future,

0:45:46.000 --> 0:45:48.080
<v Speaker 3>or just to say hello, you can email us at

0:45:48.200 --> 0:45:57.880
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0:45:58.040 --> 0:46:00.480
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0:46:00.840 --> 0:46:03.799
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