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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 2: is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back part two in

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Speaker 3: the Halloween season series. We're calling the Bone Collectors about

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Speaker 3: organisms in nature that form Texas chainsaw massacre style collections

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Speaker 3: of bones and other dead body parts. In the last episode,

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Speaker 3: we talked first about the extinct cave hyena Crocutispialia, which

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Speaker 3: was a Eurasian apex predator of the Pleistocene Epic. These

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Speaker 3: animals are famous for assembling these big pits of animal

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Speaker 3: bones that are now found preserved in caves and the

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Speaker 3: caves where they lived around the world, and that in

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Speaker 3: itself provides interesting information about the adaptive characteristics of these animals,

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Speaker 3: mainly the fact that we sort of talked about them

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Speaker 3: as like a tractor model predator or scavenger, that they

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Speaker 3: were strong, had these powerful jaws, and I think, maybe

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Speaker 3: for some reasons of social cooperation as well, were able

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Speaker 3: to haul large amounts of animal carcass mass from kill

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Speaker 3: sites or from scavenging sites out in the world all

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Speaker 3: the way back to their dens, which were often in

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Speaker 3: caves and then you find these assemblages of bones in

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Speaker 3: the caves.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, they're kind of like tow trucks. They're out there,

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Speaker 2: they find a carcass that's been illegally parked, and they're like, well,

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Speaker 2: we got to take this back to the garage.

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Speaker 3: And then after that we talked about an insect native

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Speaker 3: to a small stretch of forest in a mountain range

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Speaker 3: on the Hawaiian island of Oahu, nicknamed the bone collector

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Speaker 3: caterpillar because of its unusual behavior of first of all,

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Speaker 3: living inside active spider webs and then covering its external

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Speaker 3: silk case with dead, dried out insect body parts shopped

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Speaker 3: from the spider's web, which there's no perfect analogy for

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Speaker 3: on our level, but I was thinking about it, like

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Speaker 3: if there were a species of bird that lived inside

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Speaker 3: a Kentucky fried chicken and primarily eight chicken scavenged from

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Speaker 3: people's tables, and completely covered the outside of its body

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Speaker 3: with leftover chicken bones so as not to be mistaken

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Speaker 3: by the people working there for like another chicken that

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Speaker 3: should be cooked or something.

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Speaker 2: I like it. You know, make this a terror bird

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Speaker 2: and put humans on the menu, and you've got yourself

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Speaker 2: a horror movie right here.

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Speaker 4: I think now.

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Speaker 3: In the case of the bone collector caterpillar, the reason

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Speaker 3: for the chopped up insect body part suit behavior is

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Speaker 3: not known with certainty, but researchers kind of suggested that

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Speaker 3: it may be a form of camouflage to protect the

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Speaker 3: caterpillar from the spider that it lives alongside. Somehow disguising

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Speaker 3: the caterpillar as trash something to be ignored. And we're

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Speaker 3: back today to talk about more so, Robin.

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Speaker 2: Sorry what, oh no, It's just it would be kind

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Speaker 2: of like if you were at a child's birthday party

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Speaker 2: and you covered yourself in the crust of pizza slices

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Speaker 2: and the bottom parts of cupcakes, you know, the parts

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Speaker 2: that the children buy and large do not eat, and

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Speaker 2: they would mark yourself safe from them, I guess, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Or you're a piece of Halloween candy that eats Halloween candy,

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Speaker 3: that disguises yourself by covering yourself in candy wrappers.

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Speaker 4: There you go, that work.

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Speaker 3: You would look like, what's already done with? I don't

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Speaker 3: need to pay attention to that anymore. That's for mom

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Speaker 3: and dad to clean up. Yeah, now, rob, if you

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Speaker 3: don't mind I was going to kick things off today

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Speaker 3: looking at a wasp. Would you like to do that?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm always game for another horror story from the

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Speaker 2: world of the wasp.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot to choose from there. So in the

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Speaker 3: last episode, since we talked about the bone collector caterpillar,

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Speaker 3: I guess it's obvious that we've expanded our criteria for

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Speaker 3: collectors beyond literal bones. We're not just looking at uses

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Speaker 3: for the internal skeletons of vertebrate animals. Because to be frank,

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Speaker 3: you know, I was looking at a lot of things

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Speaker 3: we could have talked about. I think some of the

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Speaker 3: best examples just come from the invertebrate world. That's where

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Speaker 3: a lot of the best stuff happens. So I wanted

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Speaker 3: to kick things off by talking about another insect example,

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Speaker 3: and that is the bone house wasp. The scientific name

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Speaker 3: for the species is Deuterogenia osorium. Ooh yeah, And that

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Speaker 3: species name, you might hear that in your brain there osorium.

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Speaker 3: That comes from the word ossuary if you're not familiar.

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Speaker 3: And ossuary is a storage space that could be a

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Speaker 3: box or something bigger, like a whole room or a

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Speaker 3: hall for the storage of human bones often used in

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Speaker 3: places where burial space is limited or at a premium,

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Speaker 3: So a common practice in many places would be that

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Speaker 3: when a person dies, they are buried or entombed in

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Speaker 3: a temporary spot. Later, maybe a year later, after the

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Speaker 3: decomposition of the soft tissue, the bones are cleaned and

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Speaker 3: removed from the temporary burial space and transferred to an ossuary,

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Speaker 3: which could be a bone box or a chest, or

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Speaker 3: a space beneath the tomb, or just like a whole

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Speaker 3: bone building. Sometimes there are places with shelves crammed with

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Speaker 3: bones or rooms lined with bones. It's just another place

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Speaker 3: to put the bones. Now, why would a species of

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Speaker 3: wasp be named after a bone storage box, Well, we

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Speaker 3: will answer that question. This wasp was described in a

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Speaker 3: paper from twenty fourteen called a Unique Nest Protection Strategy

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Speaker 3: in a New Species of Spider Wasp, published in the

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Speaker 3: Journal Plus One by authors Michael Stobb, Michael ol Choudong Xu,

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Speaker 3: and Alexandra Maria Klein, and I was reading a bit

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Speaker 3: of background. Apparently, these insects were collected during a biodiversity

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Speaker 3: survey in the forests of Jungshi Province in southeast China,

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Speaker 3: where the researchers collected more than eight hundred chambered nests

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Speaker 3: from the wild and in the environment you would usually

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Speaker 3: find these nests. You would find them sometimes like dug

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Speaker 3: into the earth, or you would also find them maybe

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Speaker 3: in natural cavities or holes that have been bored into

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Speaker 3: pieces of wood. It'll be kind of like deep tube

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Speaker 3: shaped chambers, either in earth or in wood or something

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Speaker 3: like that. So these chambered nests, they were found in

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Speaker 3: the wild and then they were brought back to the

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Speaker 3: laboratory so that the researchers could examine the nests and

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Speaker 3: rear the larvae. In the larvae inside quote here we

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Speaker 3: describe a surprising nesting behavior that was previously unknown in

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Speaker 3: the entire animal kingdom, the use of a vestibular cell

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Speaker 3: filled with dead ants. So some houses have a mud room,

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Speaker 3: you know, sort of the outer room between the front

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Speaker 3: door and then where the house proper begins. These nests

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Speaker 3: have an anti chamber like that, called the vestibular cell.

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Speaker 3: It's an ant room and it's filled with dead ant bodies.

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Speaker 4: Rob I've got.

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Speaker 3: A photo of a cross section of a nest for

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Speaker 3: you to look at in the outline here, so you

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Speaker 3: can see the nest has a what you might think

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Speaker 3: of as a shotgun house design. It's deep and narrow

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Speaker 3: and deeper. You have what are called the brood cells.

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Speaker 3: This is where the wasp eggs are protected, sealed in

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Speaker 3: with these cemented doors made of maybe plant material, soil, debris,

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Speaker 3: and mud. And then in the outermost chamber you can

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Speaker 3: see this dusty jumble of mangled ant skeletons, just a

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Speaker 3: wad of dead ants.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, yeah, this is incredible and you know, for

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Speaker 2: many of us, speaking at least for the two of us,

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Speaker 2: but I think a lot of people out there. You've

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Speaker 2: grown up in an area that had a lot of

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Speaker 2: dirt dobber wafts or mud dabbers, various names, you would

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Speaker 2: inevitably figure out that they do a similar thing with spiders,

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Speaker 2: where you'd find this cache of spiders hidden away inside

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Speaker 2: their mud nests.

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Speaker 3: Oh, these wasps do that with spiders too. We're actually

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Speaker 3: going to get a two for one here. Oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: so we're going to get ants and spiders in the

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Speaker 3: same nest. It's a smorgasboard of invertebrate horror. But so

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Speaker 3: the question is why.

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Speaker 4: The ant bone room.

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Speaker 3: While the authors discuss they start the paper by talking

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Speaker 3: about different evolutionary specializations in reproductive strategy, noting that certain

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Speaker 3: wasp species will specialize in trying to protect and ensure

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Speaker 3: the survival of a smaller number of total eggs compared

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Speaker 3: to the majority of their close insect relatives, which lay

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Speaker 3: more eggs but invest less in the survival of each one.

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Speaker 3: So the majority of soft flies and wasp females will

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Speaker 3: be able to lay hundreds of eggs in a lifetime.

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Speaker 3: But what the authors call the quote more advanced solitary

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Speaker 3: nest provisioning hymenoptera that they sometimes lay only a dozen

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Speaker 3: eggs or so, or even less than that in the

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Speaker 3: lifetime of a single female. So lay far fewer eggs,

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Speaker 3: but do a lot more to protect each one. And

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Speaker 3: the bone house wasp is in the latter group, the

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Speaker 3: kind that invests a lot more in each egg. It

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Speaker 3: is a solitary nest provisioning wasp in the family Pompility.

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Speaker 3: The pompility are also known as the spider hunting wasps.

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Speaker 3: And here we come back to what you talked about

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Speaker 3: with the spiders earlier. Within this family, Curiously, the adults

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Speaker 3: actually don't eat spiders. The adults feed mostly on plant nectar,

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Speaker 3: and they're vegetarians. They are not generally carnivores, and yet

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Speaker 3: they are some of the most fearful predators in a

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Speaker 3: way in nature, I guess, depending on how you want

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Speaker 3: to use the word predator. They're not eating spiders, but

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Speaker 3: they do attack spiders with a painful, paralyzing venom, not

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Speaker 3: so that the adults themselves can eat the spiders, but

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Speaker 3: so that the spiders can be entombed as a live,

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Speaker 3: non decomposing food source for their growing young. So yes,

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Speaker 3: these spiders in many cases, in most cases, will be

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Speaker 3: eaten alive in a paralyzed state. So the life cycle

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Speaker 3: for a spider hunting wasp usually goes like this. You

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Speaker 3: have adults, which you can feed on floral nectar. They

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Speaker 3: produce this paralyzing sting. They use the paralyzing sting to

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Speaker 3: attack and immobilize a spider, then they carry the spider away.

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Speaker 3: They lay their eggs alongside the paralyzed spider inside a

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Speaker 3: protected nest of some sort, often a hole or a

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Speaker 3: tube of some kind closed to the outside, to protect

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Speaker 3: the egg and the larva once it hatches, and I

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Speaker 3: guess presumably also to protect the spider as a food

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Speaker 3: source from being stolen. You know, you want to lock

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Speaker 3: up the fridge.

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Speaker 2: Hey, just don't leave that lane around.

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Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, it's like a bare box, you know, the roadbox.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. And so the larvae hatch inside these protected nests

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Speaker 3: and they eat the spiders, usually starting instinctually with non

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Speaker 3: vital body parts, eating you know, eat, chewing through the

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Speaker 3: cuticle on the outside of the spider, eating the body

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Speaker 3: parts first that will not be lethal to the spider,

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Speaker 3: and then finally working their ways to the vital organs,

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Speaker 3: you know, eating the heart and the central nervous system

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Speaker 3: and stuff. And the goal is to keep the paralyzed

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Speaker 3: spider alive as long as possible so that it doesn't decompose.

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Speaker 3: It kind of keeps the spider alive while entombed, to

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Speaker 3: take advantage of the spider's living physiology, like it's immune

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Speaker 3: system as a natural preservative.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean it may sound cruel to us, but

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Speaker 2: you know, it's a wasp larva eat spider world out there.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's efficient, waste not want not.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So they oh and then finally, of course, the larvae

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Speaker 3: they mature, they might pupate, emerge from the nest to

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Speaker 3: become these nectivorous adults and repeat the cycle. So everything

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Speaker 3: I just said is also the case for the bone

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Speaker 3: house wasp. These are these spider hunting solitary wasps. But

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Speaker 3: what separates the bonehouse wasp from its nest provisioning kin

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Speaker 3: is that the bone house wasp also goes to the

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Speaker 3: extra trouble of provisioning the nest with an outer chamber

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Speaker 3: what the authors of the paper will call again a

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Speaker 3: vestibular cell crammed with dead ants. Now, when I was

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Speaker 3: first reading about this, and I hadn't gotten to the

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Speaker 3: reasoning part of it yet, the first place my brain

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Speaker 3: went was, oh, bonus snack. Right, so you got your

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Speaker 3: spider and then you've got something else. My young will

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Speaker 3: emerge extra well fed because not only do they get

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Speaker 3: to eat a paralyzed spider alive bit by bit, they

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Speaker 3: also get to eat some ants for dessert. But no,

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Speaker 3: the ants are not there to be eaten. In fact,

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Speaker 3: the ants in the vestibular chamber are completely ignored by

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Speaker 3: the larvae. The larvae never eat or come into contact

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Speaker 3: with them.

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Speaker 2: Wow, okay, all right, so what are they for? Right? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: They can't be a decorative garnish. Surely they have to

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Speaker 2: have some purpose.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're closed up in there, right, so what are

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Speaker 3: they for? Interestingly, the authors note that many other Hymenoptera

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Speaker 3: species construct tubular nests with these outer chambers or vestibular cells,

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Speaker 3: but they're usually empty, and at the time of this

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Speaker 3: paper their function was not really known because previous research

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Speaker 3: had thought, well, you know, maybe these are protective in

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Speaker 3: some way, this outer empty chamber, it protects the brood inside,

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Speaker 3: But previous research had not shown these vestibular cells to

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Speaker 3: have any protective benefit for the eggs or larvae inside.

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Speaker 3: So what are they for? Because to be clear, protection

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Speaker 3: is a concern. I mean, these organisms sound very fearsome

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Speaker 3: because what they attack spiders and they paralyze them and

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Speaker 3: they eat them alive. But still the young are vulnerable.

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Speaker 3: You know, you can have an adult parasitoid or predator

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Speaker 3: parasite of another species attack the nest, and the young,

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Speaker 3: the eggs or the larvae will be very vulnerable.

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Speaker 4: Inside.

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Speaker 3: There are other wasp and fly species that will readily

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Speaker 3: attack the nests and eat the eggs and larvae of

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Speaker 3: these solitary spider hunting wasps if they can get in there.

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Speaker 3: So the brood inside would benefit from protection. But these

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Speaker 3: commonly found empty vestibular cells don't seem to provide much,

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Speaker 3: if any protection, at least as far as we can tell. Experimentally. However,

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Speaker 3: the authors of this paper found that when the vestibular

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Speaker 3: chamber is stuffed with dead ants, it seems it actually

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Speaker 3: does provide a protective advantage. The dead ants help keep

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Speaker 3: nest parasites and predators out. So how do they do that? Well,

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Speaker 3: the authors raise a couple of possibilities which are not

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Speaker 3: mutually exclusive, chemical camouflage and chemical defense. Quote ants produce

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Speaker 3: a diverse array of organic compounds, including species specific cuticular

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Speaker 3: hydrocarbons or cchs, which are a central part of the

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Speaker 3: nest mate recognition system. Being long chained molecules of low volatility,

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Speaker 3: cchs persist on the cuticula of dead Hymenoptera for a

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Speaker 3: long time period, thus giving do Osarium nests the scent

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Speaker 3: of an ant colony. So you've got these cuticular hydrocarbons

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Speaker 3: that these chemical signals that persist on the body of

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Speaker 3: dead ants for a long time, and they keep the

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Speaker 3: brood chambers of the young wasps smelling like an ant colony,

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Speaker 3: and if you are an inse, even a predator or

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Speaker 3: a parasite, you usually don't want to mess with an

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Speaker 3: ant colony. It's like in Grand Theft Auto when you

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Speaker 3: like go on the military base or something. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's just like instant, overwhelming defensive response.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, it's it's quite a heist. As we alluded

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Speaker 2: to in the last episode. You can have specialists that

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Speaker 2: can do it, but it is it's a high risk environment.

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Speaker 3: The author is right quote. In this context, we find

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Speaker 3: it particularly interesting that the numerically dominating ant species ind

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Speaker 3: Osarium nests is p astuda, an aggressive, large bodied, and

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Speaker 3: common species in the study region that has a powerful sting.

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Speaker 3: So they seem to be not just collecting any ant.

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Speaker 3: They're trying to get a certain kind of ant in

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Speaker 3: this dead ant room. And what they're selecting for the

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Speaker 3: ant bone box is an ant that is big and

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Speaker 3: ferocious with nasty venom, is stinky, and is common and

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Speaker 3: likely to have been encountered by local nest attacking insects.

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Speaker 2: Yes, oh wow, Okay, now it's all coming together.

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Speaker 3: The author's right quote. The proposed function of the ant

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Speaker 3: chamber is most effective against predators that break the nest

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Speaker 3: and against parasitic wasps that penetrate the nest with their

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Speaker 3: long ovipositor that would be an egg laying appendage, so

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Speaker 3: trying to put their own eggs inside the nest. Such

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Speaker 3: parasitoids attacked other trapped nesting wasps, including other pompility in

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Speaker 3: the study region, and may also attack Doosarium by penetrating

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Speaker 3: the wood that contains naturally the nest cavity. However, such

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Speaker 3: species were never found in nests of Doosarium, which was

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Speaker 3: only attacked by parasitoids which entered the nest prior to

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Speaker 3: the construction of the ant chamber. So the ant chambers

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Speaker 3: keep the bad guys out and they protect the brood within.

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Speaker 3: And the authors note again that this is the first

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Speaker 3: case of a species of wasp found in nature to

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Speaker 3: build a nest chamber full of ant carcasses. Wonder nature is.

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Speaker 3: But getting back to our horror movie parallels. You know,

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Speaker 3: last time we were talking about some distinctions different kinds

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Speaker 3: of things that can be signaled when in a horror

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Speaker 3: context you encounter a big collection of bones, you have

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Speaker 3: like the Midden style collection of bones, where it just

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Speaker 3: you know, it suggests non intelligent chaotic predation. This is

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Speaker 3: just a trash pile that signals lots of death versus

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Speaker 3: the carefully assembled or curated collection of bones that are

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Speaker 3: creepy in a different way that suggests fascination or kind

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Speaker 3: of aberrant obsessions or behavior. This example makes me think

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Speaker 3: about the sort of Texas chainsaw massacre implications in a

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Speaker 3: different way. You know, what if you imagine, okay, the

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Speaker 3: saw your family and the Texas chainsaw masker. Yeah, they

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Speaker 3: got a bunch of bones around, But we always assume

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Speaker 3: that it's because they're being aggressive. What if it's not

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Speaker 3: because they're trying to terrify their victims for the fun

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Speaker 3: of it. They're not salting the meat. What if it

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Speaker 3: is to frighten onlookers in a defensive way, much like

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Speaker 3: the ants in this nest, to get them to stay

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Speaker 3: away from the house, avoid the brood.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that is kind of the vibe here. It's

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Speaker 2: so fascinating to think about because again we're talking about

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Speaker 2: an animal that is harvesting other animals, but not for food,

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Speaker 2: but for essentially building materials and to serve as a

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Speaker 2: protective barrier. Yeah, and I mean it's really hard to

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Speaker 2: think of any other species. I'm just off the top

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Speaker 2: of my head outside of human beings that actually do

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Speaker 2: this sort of thing where I look to the natural

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Speaker 2: world and identify one living species not as food but

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Speaker 2: as something that should be killed for other purposes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that is interesting, and to be fair, I don't

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Speaker 3: think this too closely. Could actually fit the events of

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Speaker 3: TCM if you watch it, but I don't know. I'm

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Speaker 3: imagining an alternate version of TCM where they line the

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Speaker 3: outside of the house with like, I don't know, they've

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Speaker 3: they've gone out and gotten a bunch of malt like guards. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: security guards from all kinds of places, and then they

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Speaker 3: just post up the security guard uniforms outside their house.

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Speaker 2: Mmmm yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's not something that necessarily

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Speaker 2: translates completely to the human world, but within the world

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Speaker 2: of like insect communication, you can see how it would

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Speaker 2: speak volumes.

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Speaker 3: Either way, I think this definitely fits more into the

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Speaker 3: curated assemblage of remains than into the chaotic midden formula,

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Speaker 3: because these are not leftovers, like they were put in

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Speaker 3: there for a reason.

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Speaker 2: Right right, Yeah, this is a great example. All right.

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Speaker 2: I have a couple of other examples I want to

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Speaker 2: get to here in this episode. I'm gonna start though,

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Speaker 2: by returning to the decapod world. As we mentioned in

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Speaker 2: the last episode, hermit crabs are essentially the crab superstars

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Speaker 2: of pilfering the quote unquote bones. Again, we're being a

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Speaker 2: little liberal in our usage of the word bones of

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Speaker 2: the dead for their own use, the bones in this

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Speaker 2: case being the shells of mollusks that they use as

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Speaker 2: their own armor.

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Speaker 1: Hm.

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Speaker 2: But they are not the only decapods to get in

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Speaker 2: in this sort of action. Famously, we also have the

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Speaker 2: decorator crabs of the Superfamily majority. Now, not every species

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Speaker 2: in this family is a decorator crab. It's more broadly

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Speaker 2: considered I think the home of the spider crabs, but

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Speaker 2: still that's where we find decorator crabs. And there are

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Speaker 2: also other crabs outside of the superfamily that use similar adaptations,

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Speaker 2: such as the kelp crab. And we also might compare

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Speaker 2: this to the way pom Pom crabs or boxer crabs

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Speaker 2: carry sea enemies around one in each claw or one

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Speaker 2: on each claw, kind of brandishing them as living weapons.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, Well, these things have come up on the

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Speaker 3: show a bit before, and I never thought about them

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Speaker 3: in a creepy context or in a bone collector kind

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Speaker 3: of way, go thinking, okay, maybe they're attaching various sessile

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Speaker 3: organisms to their back. This seems kind of hospitable in

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Speaker 3: a way.

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Speaker 2: I mean, they're grabbing animals and using them as weapons.

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Speaker 2: It would be like if there was a guy running

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Speaker 2: around the subway with a rat in each hand, chasing

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Speaker 2: at your people. You know, we would be it would

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Speaker 2: be a little off putting.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, But with the crabs, it's so cute.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, so let's consider this this next example then, yeah,

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Speaker 2: the decorator crabs. So essentially, what decorator crabs do is

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Speaker 2: they camouflage themselves by considering their living environment, you know,

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Speaker 2: but not simply mimicking it with you know, their coloration

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Speaker 2: or their morphology, but by taking bits of that environment,

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Speaker 2: living parts of that environment in many cases, and sticking

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Speaker 2: that to their body. Essentially, they have the cetae on

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Speaker 2: their backs, like on their carapace. These are like little

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Speaker 2: hooklike often compared to velcrow situations, all over their shell

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Speaker 2: and this allows them to just reach out, strip a

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Speaker 2: little some living or non living portion of their environment

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Speaker 2: and just slap it on there and then this becomes

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Speaker 2: part of their protective array. Has pointed out in a

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty Scientific American article about decorator crabs by Mary

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Speaker 2: kay Wixton, other kinds of seta on the shell are

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Speaker 2: more sensory, and their job is not to hold stuff

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Speaker 2: in place so much, but to sort of keep track

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Speaker 2: of where everything is. So it would seem to be

402
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Speaker 2: a situation where it's not just completely slap dash. It's

403
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Speaker 2: carefully arranged. They are decorating to a certain degree. Things

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Speaker 2: go in the right place, and they have to remain there.

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Speaker 2: The crabs they get pretty picky about this. Like if,

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Speaker 2: as we've discussed before, a crab a decorator crab, like

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Speaker 2: other crabs, it has to molt. Its body grows, but

408
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Speaker 2: its shell doesn't. They have to ditch the shell that

409
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Speaker 2: it outgrew and then you know, grow a new one.

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Speaker 2: And when they do this, they will have to then

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Speaker 2: reattach their zoo garden back onto their new shell as

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Speaker 2: it grows. So this is interesting to think about. Now,

413
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Speaker 2: once they reach maturity, you know, they stop molting and

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Speaker 2: they're good to go, but there are going to be

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Speaker 2: these cases where they're like, okay, this this jacket doesn't

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Speaker 2: fit me anymore, but I have all of these great

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Speaker 2: enamel pins on it and patches, so I have to

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Speaker 2: take all those off and then put them on the

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Speaker 2: new jacket, the new gene jacket, once I grow it

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Speaker 2: out of my body. So yeah, there are number of

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Speaker 2: interesting details concerning this practice. So, first of all, body

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Speaker 2: size apparently plays a role in all of this, has

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Speaker 2: discussed in two thousand and nine's Evolution of Decoration in

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Speaker 2: the Majodia Crab by holtgrin at All, published in the

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Speaker 2: American Naturalists. Smaller bodied crabs would seem to have a

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Speaker 2: more economically sustainable time with a strategy, and this seems

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Speaker 2: to break down to the idea that the more body

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Speaker 2: you have, the more hooks you have to have, and

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Speaker 2: that has, you know, a cost to it. It's like

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Speaker 2: having a whole bunch of antlers on your head as

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Speaker 2: a vertebrate. So larger decorator crabs seem to rely less

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Speaker 2: on this sort of thing, and the smaller varieties of

433
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 2: decorator crabs, you know, are more all in on the decoration.

434
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 4: Interesting, okay, Yeah.

435
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 2: There are also some varieties that are more passive decorators

436
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 2: than others. So you know, they might just stuff just

437
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,360
Speaker 2: kind of sticks to them and that becomes their camouflage,

438
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 2: while others are definitely involved in decorating themselves. I was

439
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 2: looking at some much older papers about these guys, and

440
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 2: some of the authors really got in on comparing these

441
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 2: crabs to humans, saying that they were essentially getting dressed

442
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 2: when they they put stuff on. And I guess it's

443
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 2: hard not to make that comparison, do I look all right?

444
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 4: Yeah?

445
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 2: Now, most famously, I think most of the when you

446
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 2: hear people talk about the decorator crebs, we're generally talking

447
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 2: about living material that has been added. So you know,

448
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 2: there might be some sort of algae that they're stripping

449
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 2: and sticking to them, or they're getting a little piece

450
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 2: of an anemone or a bit of a sponge slapping

451
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 2: that onto the shell, essentially becoming a mobile habitat for

452
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 2: sessile marine organisms. So not the bones, but the actual

453
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 2: living meat of their environment.

454
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 4: Yes, I like this reframing here. So they are getting

455
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 4: the meat.

456
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 2: Yes, And as Wixton pointed out in that paper I

457
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 2: referenced earlier, the exact favored materials are going to differ

458
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 2: from species to species, and it's also going to be

459
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 2: situationally specific. So I don't know if you could even

460
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 2: maybe even press it as far as to say, like

461
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 2: individually specific, but it's going to be based on what's

462
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 2: available to them as well, not so much the individual preference,

463
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 2: but you know, just what do they have in their area.

464
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 2: In general, they tend to favor organic matter that they

465
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 2: can strip apart with their claws, sponges again, algae and

466
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 2: stuff like that. They will also go for, quote, according

467
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 2: to Wixton, tubes secreted by polykeet worms, which sounds super

468
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 2: gross at first, it's less gross when you look into it. Basically,

469
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 2: these are these self secreted mineral tubes that some polykeet

470
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 2: worms secrete and then live in. Other worms just live

471
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 2: in tubes that they've bored into a substrate. So we're

472
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 2: talking about little mineralized worm straws turned stylish accessories for

473
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 2: the decorator crabs.

474
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 4: Wow, this wreck.

475
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 3: This reminds me of the caterpillar from the last time,

476
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 3: which had all these things that looked like little orange

477
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 3: straws attached to it, but it was the spider body integument,

478
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,439
Speaker 3: like from the spider molting. It would have a tube

479
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 3: left over that I guess used to be part of

480
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 3: a spider's leg and then the spider outgrew it.

481
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

482
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can look up pictures of this, and some

483
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 2: of these pictures are wild and also, I guess it

484
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 2: makes sense. We talk about decoration, but it is camouflage,

485
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 2: so some of these it's sometimes kind of hard to

486
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 2: really pick out and figure out what you're looking at.

487
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 2: But you do see these what look like tiny, little,

488
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,360
Speaker 2: you know, environment colored straws stuck to the crabs bodies.

489
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 2: They'll also make use of other materials, though plant leaves

490
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 2: have available, and in captive environments where they've been stripped

491
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 2: of their decorations, Wiston points out that they'll use the

492
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 2: likes of quote, torn sea pansies, strips of paper, chips

493
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 2: of cement from the aquarium wall, and even bits of hamburger.

494
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 4: Uh.

495
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I guess they put hamburger in

496
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 2: there for food and they're like, what is this it'll do?

497
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 2: And they stick it to their bodies.

498
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, I want more detail on the hamburger.

499
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 2: I couldn't find any additional day. I think it's just

500
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 2: they put hamburger in there, I guess to see how

501
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 2: they would respond to the meat, and at least one

502
00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 2: of the crabs is like, okay, this.

503
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 4: Will do to meat. Yeah.

504
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 2: These to be clear situations where their actual decorations were

505
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,239
Speaker 2: taken away from them, so they did not have the

506
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 2: option of using their normal, like first choice decorations. Now,

507
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 2: they'll certainly make use of shell fragments. But as for

508
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 2: actual bones, if we're going to be like real strict

509
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 2: about the episode title here, it seems possible that bones

510
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 2: could be covered by the frequently cited miscellaneous detritus that

511
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 2: the crabs use. But it would seem that actual vertebrate

512
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: bones on the whole are just not desirable. And part

513
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 2: of this may be that, you know, sometimes bones are

514
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 2: too large, they're too massive. Other cases, the coloration might

515
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 2: not be ideal because again the crab seems to be selecting,

516
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 2: you know, based on what looks like my environment, and

517
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 2: so you can imagine that if a bone is too

518
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 2: bright looking, then well that might just not that might

519
00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 2: not pass the test for the decorator crab in question. Now,

520
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 2: based on researcher observations of decoration and captivity, which we decided,

521
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 2: it seems possible that, okay, maybe you could manipulate one

522
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 2: into using tiny bones. But that seems like cheating. I mean,

523
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 2: it's like they're not going to put Hamburger on.

524
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 4: Their bodies in the wild.

525
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 2: So if you were able to trick one into using

526
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 2: bones well in a captive environment, that doesn't really count.

527
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 3: Well you've convinced me Rob. I did not think of

528
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 3: these these animals in a creepy way before I put

529
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 3: them in the cute box in my brain. But I'm

530
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 3: officially taking them out of the cute box. Or I'll

531
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 3: take half of one out of the cute box and

532
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 3: put the leave one half in there, put the other

533
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 3: half in the creepy box.

534
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,719
Speaker 2: I don't know. Aren't all crabs kind of in the

535
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 2: creepy and cute box at the same time. That's kind

536
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:42,479
Speaker 2: of the crab box, isn't it.

537
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 4: Maybe?

538
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, At any rate, they're pretty fun.

539
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 4: Yeah.

540
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 2: They certainly do cover themselves with a mix of living flesh,

541
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 2: dead flesh, and various forms of organic and inorganic detritus.

542
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 2: So yeah, certainly close enough for me.

543
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 4: Bone collector certified.

544
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, And then I want to get back

545
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 2: to one that I might have mentioned this one in

546
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 2: passing in the first episode. Uh, certainly one that's been

547
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 2: on my mind the whole time, especially when we're talking

548
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 2: about a creature's midden, and that is the midden of

549
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 2: the octopus, and this one was that. Yeah, this was

550
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 2: one of my first picks for the series, as it's

551
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 2: a pretty great example of a creature that not only

552
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 2: passively accumulates bones and bone like remains, but also makes

553
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 2: use of them.

554
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 3: Oh okay, so it could could be in sort of

555
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 3: both of our categories from the first episode, both the

556
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 3: chaotically assembled midden as a leftover of other activities, but

557
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 3: then also something that serves a purpose of its own.

558
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 3: It's not just a trash heap.

559
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 2: Right right, it is. It's in this case it is

560
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 2: a trash sheep, but then a trash heap that is

561
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 2: utilized in environment manipulation and dim manipulation, which we'll get

562
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 2: into in just a second. All right, So, different varieties

563
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 2: of octopus make use of mittens. This includes the common octopus,

564
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 2: the giant Pacific octopus, the gloomy octopus, and the Caribbean

565
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 2: two spot octopus just as a few examples. And we'll

566
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 2: get into some more specific examples here in a second.

567
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 2: And an octopus's midden is primarily the accumulation of shells

568
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 2: and bones. Outside of its den, there are also going

569
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 2: to be bits of rock and perhaps bits of coral

570
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 2: and so forth. They are kind of like mixed up

571
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 2: in it as well. One thing that was interesting This

572
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 2: is a kind of a tangent, but I think it

573
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 2: reveals a lot about the formation of middens. In some

574
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 2: cases the shells don't accumulate as much because hermit crabs

575
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 2: carry them off. So Richard F. Ambrose discussed this in

576
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 2: a nineteen eighty three article for Marine Behavior and Physiology,

577
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 2: citing studies of Virel's two spot octopus, which only have,

578
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 2: according to this older paper, some discarded remnants at their

579
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 2: dens twenty percent of the time without the materials forming

580
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 2: true middens. So again, this would seem to be a

581
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 2: variety of octopus that doesn't really do much with mittens.

582
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 2: And the big reason for this would seem to be

583
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 2: that the snails make up an extra large part of

584
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 2: this specific octopus species diet much more than other octopus species,

585
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 2: and as a result, it has mostly shells that are

586
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 2: hermit crabs. They get stolen and carried away by marine

587
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 2: hermit crabs.

588
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 3: Well, isn't that a beautiful little emergent efficiency in nature,

589
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 3: Like exactly the main kind of trash you produce is

590
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 3: exactly what some other organism in your environment wants as

591
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 3: a home.

592
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 2: Yes, though I don't know in this case those as

593
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 2: we'll look at some of these other examples. Other midden

594
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 2: producing octopuses do make use of their heap of bones

595
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 2: and shells, and you know, some of those shells are

596
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 2: carried away if they happen to be mollis shells, and

597
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 2: there are hermit crabs in their environment, but they're able

598
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 2: to do more with them, whereas this particular species Varil's

599
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 2: two spot octopus, I guess just doesn't have that option

600
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 2: if most of it's most of it's midden or most

601
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 2: of what would be its midden are carried away by hermits.

602
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 3: So one octopus's trash does not ever get to become

603
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 3: that same octopus as treasure because it was already treasure

604
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 3: to a decapod that took it.

605
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 2: Right right, So so yeah, on one level, the octopus

606
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,879
Speaker 2: is midden is yeah, definitely this bone and shell deposit. Again,

607
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 2: in keeping with our her mythic ideas of dragons layers,

608
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 2: the cave of Carabanog and so forth, you know, look

609
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,439
Speaker 2: at the bones. And I have to mention that every

610
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 2: time I've had the opportunity to go snorkeling, I always

611
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 2: keep a lookout for anything that might be an octopus midden,

612
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 2: because to observe an octopus in the lie in the

613
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 2: wild is a most special thing. And the one time

614
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 2: I really got to observe an octopus out out in

615
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 2: the wild while snorkeling during daylight, that was one of

616
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 2: the most magical experiences of my life. It was just amazing.

617
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 2: But of course octopuses are not always active when we

618
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 2: snorkelers are out, and even when they are, they are

619
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 2: masters of disguise in their environments and we're merely humans.

620
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 2: So I am not good at identifying an octopus as

621
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 2: midden in the wild.

622
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 4: You know.

623
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 2: I'll look at things and be like, that kind of

624
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 2: looks like it could be a heap of shells, that

625
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 2: could be some bones. Maybe that is an octopus's midden,

626
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 2: but you know, nothing ever comes out of it.

627
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 3: Well, that actually makes me wonder would they make any

628
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,280
Speaker 3: attempt to disguise their middens.

629
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 2: As far as I know, not intentionally, you know, I

630
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 2: guess part of the reality is there's you know, things

631
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 2: are eaten all the time, things are torn apart all

632
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 2: the time in a marine environment, especially in like a

633
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 2: really diverse coral environment. So uh yeah, But this is

634
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 2: I guess, kind of an open question, like are there

635
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 2: going to be organisms that might identify an octopus as

636
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 2: midden and therefore try to take advantage of it or

637
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:07,760
Speaker 2: steer clear of it? I would think not so much,

638
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 2: because one is, we'll discuss here in a minute. One

639
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 2: of the key things that the octopus does was with

640
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 2: the midden is disguise its layer and fortify its layer.

641
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 4: Okay, that makes sense, And I guess.

642
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 3: As you alluded to a minute ago, you know, there's

643
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 3: gonna be a lot of shells and other bones and

644
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 3: hard parts floating around or settling on the bottom of

645
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 3: the ocean anyway, So like it wouldn't be unusual to see.

646
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 4: Those for another organism.

647
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 3: It's not like it's not like when we see a

648
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 3: bone pile in a movie.

649
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, just because I can't spot an octopus midden

650
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 2: in the wild or haven't had the luck of spotting one,

651
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean other humans, actual researchers and experts can't.

652
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 2: Because it kind of much like the example of the

653
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 2: cave hyena bone collections we discussed in last episode, Octopus

654
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 2: middens can actually tell us a lot about what octopus

655
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 2: species are eating, you know, it gives us a little

656
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 2: insight into what's on the menu for them, and it

657
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 2: can also tell us what octopus individuals are eating. And

658
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 2: this latter point is actually really key.

659
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 4: Oh you can go through their trash. Yeah, yeah, you.

660
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 2: Can go through their trash. And it's telling again, not

661
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 2: just about a species, but also about individuals. As discussed

662
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 2: in individual prey Choices of Octopuses Are they Generalist or Specialist?

663
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 2: By Mather at All, published twenty twelve in the journal

664
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 2: Current Zoology, The question they pose here may have to

665
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 2: be answered in terms of both species and individual given

666
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 2: that we're dealing with intelligent and adaptive predators that may

667
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 2: make their choices based not only on localized prey of availability,

668
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,800
Speaker 2: but also individual personality differences, which I thought was a

669
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 2: very very interesting consideration. Like, we're dealing with a creature

670
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 2: that is again highly adaptive, may have a lot to

671
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,399
Speaker 2: choose from in a given environment, and some of its

672
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 2: choices might not just be part of a basic equation

673
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 2: of like availability plus ability, and you know the abilities

674
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 2: of the species, but also like, what does this individual

675
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 2: like to do? What has it chosen to explore and

676
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 2: then take advantage.

677
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 3: Of Octopuses are intelligent enough that they might actually be

678
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,240
Speaker 3: quirky individually quirky.

679
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 2: Yes, Yeah, another paper I looked two thousand and eighths

680
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 2: Octopus vulgaris. That's the common octopus, by the way, in

681
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 2: the Caribbean is a specializing generalist by Anderson at All,

682
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 2: published in the Marine Ecology Progress series. They looked at

683
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 2: the remains of six hundred and forty nine prey items

684
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 2: gathered from the middens of thirty eight dens in a

685
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 2: small area off the Caribbean island of bon Air, and

686
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 2: they these middens revealed thirty five species of gastropods it's

687
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 2: nineteen percent of the total, nineteen bivalves fifty percent, and

688
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 2: twenty one crustaceans thirty percent. And this particular study argued that, yes,

689
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 2: the common octopus is a specialized gennalist, with the population

690
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 2: as a whole boasting a wide choice of prey items,

691
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:21,359
Speaker 2: but with narrower focus for the individual. So that would

692
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 2: seem to line up with what this other paper was

693
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 2: saying as well, But.

694
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 3: A minute ago you were talking about the actual benefits

695
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 3: of an octopus as mitten, so that it wasn't just

696
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,839
Speaker 3: a trash heap. It is thought to do something for

697
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 3: the octopus.

698
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:35,399
Speaker 4: That's right.

699
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 2: And then this we can really think of it in

700
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 2: terms of a dragon or a killer rabbit. So your

701
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 2: killer rabbit or your dragon is producing all of these bones.

702
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 2: But imagine that the mythic monster in question here, first

703
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 2: of all, pushes or blasts all the bones that they

704
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 2: produce outside of their den. They don't want to sleep

705
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,839
Speaker 2: on all those bones necessarily, And in the octopus's case,

706
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 2: they can use, you know, their jets to things around.

707
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 2: So you're accumulating your waist out there in front of

708
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 2: your den. With the dragon or the rabbit, we're talking

709
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 2: about a cave, and with the octopus, you know, we're

710
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 2: talking about some sort of indention in the sand, the

711
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,879
Speaker 2: coral and so forth, you know, the rock, some sort

712
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,919
Speaker 2: of little den they have there with sand and other

713
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 2: detritus out there already, and then an ever growing pile

714
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 2: of bones and bits of shell and so forth, and

715
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 2: so yeah, it's not just a waste disposal byproduct, but

716
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 2: it's also a source of defense and shelter because the

717
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 2: heap of shells and bones are then used by the

718
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 2: octopus to alter the environment. They can use it to

719
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 2: narrow or even block the entrance to the octopus's den,

720
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 2: camouflaging it and also fortifying it against incursion. So such

721
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 2: a den like it provides them a place of refuge,

722
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,439
Speaker 2: but it can also serve a very much more important part,

723
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 2: like the most important part really in the octopus's life cycle.

724
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 2: It can serve as the place where a female octopus

725
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 2: lays her eggs and eventually her final resting place as

726
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 2: she dies tending to them. So most species of octopus

727
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 2: only reproduce once in their lifetime, and they enter a

728
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 2: fatal sinessence phase after laying that clutch of eggs. So

729
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 2: you know, it's rather interesting. It becomes their home, it

730
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 2: kind of becomes their tomb, but is also the place

731
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:37,720
Speaker 2: from which the next phase of the life cycle will emerge.

732
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 2: And then afterwards, an octopuss den might be reused by

733
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 2: a new octopus seeking out a place to hold up,

734
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:47,879
Speaker 2: or of course it could be inhabited by various other

735
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 2: marine organisms looking for some sort of little place to

736
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 2: burrow away. But in comparing the octopus is Midden to

737
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 2: dragons and other fantasy creatures. I think there's an opportunity there,

738
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,280
Speaker 2: And I wonder if any body out there has explored

739
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 2: this idea, like some sort of dragon that uses its

740
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 2: bones for some sort of purpose, you know, either fortifying

741
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 2: its position or I don't know, I guess they're dragons.

742
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 2: They could potentially do something magical with them, like raise

743
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,439
Speaker 2: all those bones. I imagine there's easily some cases where

744
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 2: that goes on. But the octopus would argue, no, the

745
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 2: best thing you can do is create. You end up

746
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 2: with this big, like sifting pile of bones and sand

747
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 2: and other materials, and you can just use that as

748
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 2: kind of like the door to your layer, opening it,

749
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 2: closing it, partially obscuring and so forth.

750
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is kind of similar to the wasp

751
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 3: and ant example.

752
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 1: Here.

753
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 3: Once again it's a case of defensive use of the

754
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:46,800
Speaker 3: bones or remains of another animal.

755
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah, you know, and in this case that

756
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:55,240
Speaker 2: these bones are the result of their own consumption, unlike

757
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 2: the ants. But yeah, they are using them for a

758
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 2: novel purpose. To come back to your Texas chainsaw massacre example,

759
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 2: it would be like if the saw your family. We're

760
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 2: using the bones not only as decorations, but as like

761
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 2: actual like fences to keep people out, like physical barriers.

762
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 2: I guess that's the only thing that makes sense. Oh,

763
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 2: I can't really say environmental disguise, but.

764
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 3: Well, I was thinking, like, what about lining their driveway

765
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:25,720
Speaker 3: with bones in a way that like narrows the approach

766
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 3: of vehicles to the home. You know, you're trying to

767
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 3: funnel them into a particular area. Yeah, so yeah, you

768
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 3: said that the octopuses could like narrow you know, or

769
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 3: control the shape of the opening or the aperture to

770
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 3: their den with the bones.

771
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I could see that.

772
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot we can learn from the Sawyer clan.

773
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 2: I think that's what we're saying.

774
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 3: Putting a bunch of sharp bones out on the road

775
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 3: in front of the house to puncture the tires of

776
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 3: trucks that are going by. Yeah yeah, I guess that's

777
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 3: that's getting away from the octopus example.

778
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 2: But well, things become increasingly more complicated when you start

779
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 2: injecting them into the human world. But I think the

780
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 2: spirit is still there.

781
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 3: You know, here's a funny thing. Imagine octopuses they developed

782
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 3: their own technological civilization, their own art, their own genres

783
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 3: of literature. They discovered that they had a taste for

784
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,359
Speaker 3: horror as well. They liked being scared for fun. Now,

785
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 3: try to imagine the culture's equivalent of bone imagery, because

786
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 3: they've only got one hard part, right, it's just the beak,

787
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 3: So they couldn't have a whole bunch of different bones

788
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:33,839
Speaker 3: for horror imagery. It would just be beaks.

789
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 2: I guess you're right.

790
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, their pirate flag is just a beak. Every piece

791
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 3: of skullar bone imagery we have could only be beak.

792
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 2: That would be their Halloween decoration.

793
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, all right? Does that do it for the bone collectors?

794
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 2: I think it does now. Folks out there, you might

795
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 2: have some other examples that have come to mind. You're like, hey,

796
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:55,280
Speaker 2: what about this organism? What about that one? Well, write

797
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,239
Speaker 2: in because we would love to either discuss those on

798
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 2: future episodes of Listener, may here in the Stuff to

799
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 2: Blow your Mind podcast feed, or who knows, if we

800
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 2: get enough recommendations, maybe we have the ammo to do

801
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 2: a part three, either later this year or next year

802
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 2: when Halloween rolls around once again.

803
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 4: Oh yeah.

804
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 2: In the meantime, we would like to remind everyone out

805
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 2: there that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a

806
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 2: science and culture podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursday,

807
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 2: short form episodes on Wednesdays and on Fridays. We set

808
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 2: aside most serious concerns to just talk about a weird

809
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 2: film on Weird House Cinema.

810
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

811
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

812
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,919
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to send

813
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 3: us your own example of a bone collecting organism that

814
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,839
Speaker 3: does something interesting with the remains of other animals. If

815
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 3: you would like to suggest a topic for the future,

816
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 3: or just to say hello, you can email us at

817
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 3: contact that's Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

818
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of Heart Radio.

819
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,799
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820
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

821
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:25,800
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