Speaker 1: Novel. Hey listeners, this is Ellie Flynn. I'm so happy
Speaker 1: The Bunny Trap is out in the world and finding
Speaker 1: listeners like you. If you haven't listened to the full
Speaker 1: series yet, make sure you do. It's the story of
Speaker 1: a group of glamor models from the UK who band
Speaker 1: together to call out Luis Gomez, a photographer they accused
Speaker 1: of abuse. Reporting on this took me years and to
Speaker 1: places I never expected, through the English countryside, to a
Speaker 1: weird glamor event in Orlando, Florida, and a dusty ghost
Speaker 1: town outside of Las Vegas. We spoke to so many
Speaker 1: people and made countless decisions along the way, decisions about
Speaker 1: what leeds to follow, who to speak to next, and
Speaker 1: how best to tell this story. My team and I
Speaker 1: aren't quite ready to let this series go just yet,
Speaker 1: so we've got three bonus episodes for you. We interviewed
Speaker 1: so many brilliant and helpful people along the way, but
Speaker 1: for one reason or another, not all of those interviews
Speaker 1: made it into the series. All of them were crucial
Speaker 1: to how we put this series together, though, so we're
Speaker 1: bringing them to you now. Firstly, I want to bring
Speaker 1: you an interview I did at the very start of production,
Speaker 1: which was really important in shaping how we told this story,
Speaker 1: from the way we conducted interviews with models all the
Speaker 1: way through to the wording we used in the final scripts.
Speaker 1: From the team at Novel, you're listening to the Bunny
Speaker 1: Trap Bonus episode one Help. I'm a journalist. HER's a
Speaker 1: charity that works with media professionals and journalists like me,
Speaker 1: as well as the people we interview, to help us
Speaker 1: report better on topics that sometimes aren't properly represented in
Speaker 1: mainstream media. I'm talking trans issues, climate change, migration, and poverty,
Speaker 1: topics where the people affected often aren't actually listened to
Speaker 1: or given a platform. HERD helps to equip the journalists
Speaker 1: working on these stories with the tools to tell those
Speaker 1: stories with sensitivity and nuance and in ways that make
Speaker 1: the contributors we interview feel well heard. One of the
Speaker 1: areas that HERD focuses on is helping journalists tell stories
Speaker 1: about sexual abuse, and so I caught up with two
Speaker 1: staff members at HERD to find out more about their work.
Speaker 2: I'm Zeno, project coordinator, and I'm Kara and I'm a
Speaker 2: project manager working on our Ingles project.
Speaker 1: Zeno Okaka and kiaravare both work on Herd's Angles Campaign,
Speaker 1: a program that was started in the wake of the
Speaker 1: Med Too movement in twenty sixteen to create better understanding
Speaker 1: of sexual violence and domestic abuse in the media. With
Speaker 1: the team, it heard was central to the way we
Speaker 1: interviewed the glamor models at the heart of this story
Speaker 1: and how we navigated some of the thorny issues this
Speaker 1: series brought up, so we wanted you to hear from
Speaker 1: them too. So what exactly does the Angle's Campaign do
Speaker 1: for projects in the media.
Speaker 3: We started supporting people with leave the experience of sexual
Speaker 3: and domestic abuse to share their stories with the media
Speaker 3: in a way that changes the conversations but also opens
Speaker 3: up a better understanding of these issues.
Speaker 1: And how do you go about that? How do you
Speaker 1: create a safe environment for survivors to tell their stories.
Speaker 2: The first thing is we bring together people with the
Speaker 2: experience of sexual and or domestic abuse, training them to
Speaker 2: be able to talk about this story in a safe
Speaker 2: and strategic way, so make sure their messages are heard
Speaker 2: and understood by audiences, but also that they can do
Speaker 2: this work in a way that feels sustainable to them.
Speaker 2: And then we have informal behind the scenes conversations with
Speaker 2: journalists producers, what have you support them to understand the
Speaker 2: stories that people with this experience want to be told
Speaker 2: and support them to understand what the issue is.
Speaker 1: When HERD works with survivors of sexual abuse, they give
Speaker 1: them loads of practical strategies to help them feel comfortable
Speaker 1: enough to share their story with the media.
Speaker 2: One of the first things that we really work with
Speaker 2: people to understand is the control that they have in
Speaker 2: situations like this, giving them the things to think about before, during,
Speaker 2: and after an interview, so whether that's the questions that
Speaker 2: they need to ask, the things that they are entitled to,
Speaker 2: and helping them to understand that it's a relationship that
Speaker 2: they're having with the journalists. There's a give and take
Speaker 2: to it, like it's okay to have an agenda, it's
Speaker 2: okay to have something that you want to get out
Speaker 2: of the interview, and also reminding them that they don't
Speaker 2: have to do it alone, so you can have a
Speaker 2: friend with you, you can have an ally with you,
Speaker 2: or you can say sorry, this opportunity is not for me,
Speaker 2: this is not the right time for me, and pass
Speaker 2: it on to someone else that is better suited.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and why is that so important on both ends
Speaker 1: of the spectrum, you know, for journalists to really understand
Speaker 1: the people they are interviewing, but also for the people
Speaker 1: who are telling their stories.
Speaker 3: In this case sexual and domestic abuse. We live in
Speaker 3: a world where we absorb these ideas and stereotypes through
Speaker 3: you know, watching TV, like hearing the news, and so
Speaker 3: having conversations in the media that are realistic and nuanced
Speaker 3: and that really like center people instead of you know,
Speaker 3: the sensational storyline. It's really important to grow as a
Speaker 3: society towards a way of like looking at these issues
Speaker 3: that can have an impact for the people affected. One
Speaker 3: thing that one survivors said is like, as survivors, because
Speaker 3: of what we went through, we've been let down by institutions,
Speaker 3: sometimes family, friends, and when we trust the media with
Speaker 3: our story and then they don't approach us or engaged
Speaker 3: with us in a sensitive way, and that might mean
Speaker 3: you know, not giving them the control over the narratives
Speaker 3: that they want to share, or just like in doing
Speaker 3: an interview and then don't follow up with when this
Speaker 3: is going to be released or involving them in the
Speaker 3: process of sharing their story. This can feel very traumatizing
Speaker 3: and it feels like they've been abused by yet another institution,
Speaker 3: and surely like there's no my level, you know, intention
Speaker 3: behind that from the journey's perspective most of the times
Speaker 3: and journeys want to get it right. But then we
Speaker 3: really need to be aware of what our behaviors are
Speaker 3: reinforcing in how they've been treated generally by society.
Speaker 1: What are some of the main stereotypes that you want
Speaker 1: to break down when it comes to reporting on this area.
Speaker 2: But the first thing is assuming that it's the survivors
Speaker 2: for that they should have just a certain way done,
Speaker 2: a certain thing left earlier, what have you. But I
Speaker 2: think also just helping people to understand what abuse looks
Speaker 2: like and like the TV shows that we watch, if
Speaker 2: we're seeing the same thing over and over again when
Speaker 2: we're approached by you know, for example, some of the
Speaker 2: different gender saying, Hey, I'm being abused by my boyfriend
Speaker 2: what have you? Not intentionally we're going to assume that
Speaker 2: that can't be quite true because that's not what I've
Speaker 2: seen in the media. We have a stereotypical idea that
Speaker 2: it's only a certain gender, it's only physical and so
Speaker 2: that's why it's important to tell different kinds of stories
Speaker 2: of abuse. It's uncomfortable to talk about abuse. It's uncomfortable
Speaker 2: to think that you know, people close to you might
Speaker 2: be going through something difficult or be perpetrating something difficult.
Speaker 2: But it's fine to acknowledge the difficulty, but we also
Speaker 2: need to then do something about it, talk about the
Speaker 2: solutions as well.
Speaker 1: I imagine there's like a real scale of kind of you know,
Speaker 1: really really awful reporting through to reporting that's well intentioned,
Speaker 1: but that has some things in it that can be
Speaker 1: probably for people who work in that industry or who
Speaker 1: are victims of survivors. But what are some of the
Speaker 1: common pitfalls that easy when people do report on the
Speaker 1: sex industry or on the glamor industry.
Speaker 3: Language is really important, and I think we're prone to
Speaker 3: use language when it comes to reporting on these issues
Speaker 3: in a way that it's sometimes dehumanizing and it doesn't
Speaker 3: take into account how the person wants to be described,
Speaker 3: what the personal experience looks like. I mean, reporting on
Speaker 3: sexual abuse is problematic and can be problematic always. What
Speaker 3: we want to do is like reframing this conversation towards
Speaker 3: a more societal approach to sexual and domestic abuse. To
Speaker 3: see how we all play a part to make this
Speaker 3: issue as big as it is, and we often hear like,
Speaker 3: you know, institutions can really change, like this is such
Speaker 3: a big problem, Like how can we tackle it? And
Speaker 3: what these narratives do in people's mind is that people
Speaker 3: he's engaged with the topic and your audience like where
Speaker 3: their minds will go when they hear the stop it
Speaker 3: without hearing that actually we all have a part to play,
Speaker 3: there are solutions, and even just showing there are places
Speaker 3: where these solutions are already implemented and it's still working.
Speaker 1: Kira's point was instrumental in making sure we gave the
Speaker 1: women at the heart of the story's space to be
Speaker 1: represented and related to as people beyond what they do
Speaker 1: for work. After the break, I get some specific advice
Speaker 1: on how to report this story. Some of the women
Speaker 1: I spoke to in The Bunny Trap identify as sex workers,
Speaker 1: and while others don't identify with that, many people would
Speaker 1: see them that way. Kiara says that sex workers who've
Speaker 1: experienced sexual abuse can find it even more difficult than
Speaker 1: others to share their stories with the media.
Speaker 3: For the purpose of like the conversation around stereotypes and abuse.
Speaker 3: This is where we really hate a wall. Like we
Speaker 3: are prone to think that sex workers can't be abused
Speaker 3: because of the work that they choose, but actually what
Speaker 3: we don't normally focus on is, you know, the wider
Speaker 3: societal patriarchal contexts that allows women to be exploited in
Speaker 3: this way even when they choose to do this for
Speaker 3: a living, which is beyond that to judge in moral terms.
Speaker 3: And so we go back to how do we bring
Speaker 3: the conversation back to what the real issue is and
Speaker 3: not what people want to see as the issue. So
Speaker 3: it's really important that we reframe the way that we
Speaker 3: think and talk about use in the glamor and sexual workspace.
Speaker 1: If you were to give me some advice when it
Speaker 1: comes to interviewing victims or people with experiences in this area,
Speaker 1: how best can I interview someone without either ret traumatizing
Speaker 1: them or falling victim to any of those sort of
Speaker 1: stereotypes or tropes that we've been speaking about.
Speaker 2: You won't be able to get everything right, like you
Speaker 2: will make mistakes, and that's fine, like we're all human.
Speaker 2: I will say the first thing that when you're interviewing
Speaker 2: someone is always ask and have that conversation with them,
Speaker 2: because that can be huge in setting the foundation for
Speaker 2: the relationship going forward. Have that conversation before the interview
Speaker 2: to ask them what do you need? How can I
Speaker 2: describe this? And how can I say that? And just
Speaker 2: checking with them also about like what are your triggers,
Speaker 2: what is it that I need to avoid? What are
Speaker 2: your boundaries, and encouraging them to think about that as well,
Speaker 2: simple things like encouraging them to have someone to support them,
Speaker 2: have someone to help them prepare if you have an
Speaker 2: editor who's probably going to change things, telling them like, hey,
Speaker 2: like I'm going to do my best to make sure
Speaker 2: you're represented well. But if things change, this is why
Speaker 2: explain to people reasons and keeping in touch and then
Speaker 2: afterwards a simple well done. I really appreciate that, which
Speaker 2: a surprising amount of times doesn't always happen. It's just
Speaker 2: really simple things.
Speaker 1: One thing that we have faced in this production, and
Speaker 1: I guess as a starting point, podcasts take a long
Speaker 1: time to make anyway, because you know, you have an
Speaker 1: interview process and there's an editing process. This is a
Speaker 1: big investigation, so it was already going to be a
Speaker 1: long process. Do you have any advice on sort of
Speaker 1: how best to handle people who have told their stories
Speaker 1: when there are delays, and how to kind of manage
Speaker 1: expectations when sometimes things take quite a long time to
Speaker 1: put together and to put out there.
Speaker 3: For people to know that you haven't forgotten them, You're
Speaker 3: still very grateful for their sharing their stories, but you're
Speaker 3: realistic about how the process works and how the industry works,
Speaker 3: and the obstacles that you might face. Yeah, So like
Speaker 3: being honest, like keeping in touch, like sending updates, and
Speaker 3: making sure that you don't forget the people that you
Speaker 3: worked with in the process, I think is really important.
Speaker 1: One of the things I wanted to speak to the
Speaker 1: team I heard about was whether they had any advice
Speaker 1: for me on how to cover a story about one
Speaker 1: man that many women are making allegations against.
Speaker 3: I think the really important thing to remember, especially when
Speaker 3: there are like a lot of allegations, is not to
Speaker 3: fall into the trap of demonizing and I think finding
Speaker 3: a way to report without falling into that trap and
Speaker 3: showing that it could be anyone because of how what
Speaker 3: is spread in the society. Issue is it's like, how
Speaker 3: can we understand that these patterns and these circumstances are
Speaker 3: not the exceptional, especially if you're a woman, like every
Speaker 3: woman listening to this podcast, like we have been in
Speaker 3: a position of feeling very uncomfort or because of you know,
Speaker 3: the paradynamics that gender and age and all the components
Speaker 3: of this story might put on the plead that's the
Speaker 3: key on how you can sweitch the conversation.
Speaker 1: So for me, this story has always been about power.
Speaker 1: I think a huge part of it as well is
Speaker 1: the stigma that everyone has that you know, the general
Speaker 1: public has about sex workers, and even just two girls
Speaker 1: that I've spoken to the way they try to kind
Speaker 1: of get this out there and try to get people
Speaker 1: to listen for quite a long time, but just really
Speaker 1: felt like nobody took them seriously or like there was
Speaker 1: a real sense that like, well why did you go
Speaker 1: on the photo shoot? And it was like they never
Speaker 1: they felt like they would never listen to from the start.
Speaker 1: And so for me, those have been the two most
Speaker 1: important things to get across that kind of being a
Speaker 1: sex worker doesn't make you any less of a victim
Speaker 1: or any less susceptible to this, and that this is
Speaker 1: really about power. And I guess with that in mind,
Speaker 1: do you have any specific advice about how I can
Speaker 1: frame that in this podcast and what to keep in mind.
Speaker 3: Everything can be boiled down to the importance of bringing
Speaker 3: honor to victims and how actually, when you talk to survivors,
Speaker 3: what they really need is that recognition from their community
Speaker 3: or the society that you know, the rights that they've
Speaker 3: been deprived by their perpetrators are now being restated by
Speaker 3: being believed. And like, we know why this was possible, right,
Speaker 3: We know about the power imbalance, we know about the stigma,
Speaker 3: and yet you know there are human beings that are
Speaker 3: still the humanized in the way that they experience these
Speaker 3: issues because of the stereotypes around sex workers in this case.
Speaker 2: So if you're telling a new story about the way
Speaker 2: we talk about survivors, repeat the human aspect of the
Speaker 2: person that has been affected by this, and I think
Speaker 2: that will supporting helping people to remember that like, hey,
Speaker 2: this is not this individual's.
Speaker 3: Fault, showing the systemic, institutional like societal impact of this
Speaker 3: issue and not the individual one, not this person that
Speaker 3: made this choice, but all of us and how we
Speaker 3: all contributed to turning a blind eye.
Speaker 1: As for how to get justice for the women in
Speaker 1: our story, it was heard that first put me onto
Speaker 1: the idea that it doesn't always have to be through
Speaker 1: the courts.
Speaker 3: When it comes to sexual violence, we tend to focus
Speaker 3: on achieving justice through justice systems, but unfortunately we know
Speaker 3: that when it comes to survivors, there's a very high
Speaker 3: chance of not experiencing any form of justice through normal
Speaker 3: institutional systems. And so we also know that what a
Speaker 3: survivor or victim needs is often opposed to the requirements
Speaker 3: of legal proceedings. Social acknowledgement and support, power and control
Speaker 3: over their stories in a way that they can share
Speaker 3: in their own terms, and also control over the exposure
Speaker 3: that they have when it comes to the trauma that
Speaker 3: they experience. And if we heal that relationship through believing
Speaker 3: in a person to giving them a platform to actually
Speaker 3: share their stories in a way that is not traumatizing
Speaker 3: it it's liberating. It really can bring a sense of
Speaker 3: justice to the person that is doing the talking. The
Speaker 3: media can have a role and a power in giving
Speaker 3: a victim or a survivor the sense of justice that
Speaker 3: they need by just showing that they believe in them,
Speaker 3: giving them a platform and giving them their voice to
Speaker 3: say this happened to me. This is the way it
Speaker 3: impacted me, and people might believe it or might not
Speaker 3: believe it. But if we represent people's stories in a
Speaker 3: way that they're happy with, they know it's acre and
Speaker 3: they know it brings them justice because it sures the
Speaker 3: reality of this cave of the issue, then I think
Speaker 3: there is a comftability in that there is a comfortability
Speaker 3: in having played the party, in giving the vice, and
Speaker 3: that's what you're doing with your podcast.
Speaker 1: This final message from Kiara and Zeno really resonated with
Speaker 1: me that telling this story and getting it out there
Speaker 1: could be a form of justice. It was this motivation
Speaker 1: that I held on to throughout reporting on this story. Really,
Speaker 1: it's what fueled me since I started out as a
Speaker 1: journalist telling stories about women and stories about power and
Speaker 1: how sometimes that power is abused, stories that can make
Speaker 1: a difference just by being told. Thanks for joining us
Speaker 1: on the first bonus episode of The Bunny Trap. We've
Speaker 1: got two more bonus episodes for you. Next time, you'll
Speaker 1: hear more about me, my background in reporting on stories
Speaker 1: about women and the sex industry, and how that led
Speaker 1: to the fateful email landing in my inbox, the one
Speaker 1: that kicked off this whole series. We contacted Luis Gomez
Speaker 1: multiple times for comment, but we never heard back. He
Speaker 1: has not been charged with any crimes and is presumed
Speaker 1: innocent under the law. We also sought comment from Playboy USA.
Speaker 1: They declined our requests for an interview, but stated that
Speaker 1: they asked their licensees to blacklist the photographer mentioned in
Speaker 1: this series and that they prohibit paid to play the
Speaker 1: practice of charging models to appear in magazines. The Bunny
Speaker 1: Trap is produced by Novel. For more from Novel, visit
Speaker 1: novel the audio. The show is hosted by me Ellie Flynn.
Speaker 1: You can find me on social media by searching my
Speaker 1: name That's Ellie Flynn f l Y double N. This
Speaker 1: series is produced by Eleana Biggs and this episode is
Speaker 1: produced by Malia Sortland, additional production from Lee Meyer and
Speaker 1: Saskia Collette. The editors are Georgia Moody and Austin Mitchell Are.
Speaker 1: Executive producers are Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan. Production management
Speaker 1: from Scherie Houston and Charlotte Wolf. Sound design, mixing and
Speaker 1: scoring by Daniel Kempson and Nicholas Alexander. Music supervision by
Speaker 1: Nicholas Alexander, Eleanor Biggs and Max O'Brien, original music composed
Speaker 1: and performed by Jak Long, and additional production by Nicholas Alexander,
Speaker 1: Louisa Gerstein and Daniel Kempson. The series artwork was designed
Speaker 1: by Christina Limcole Willard Foxtons, creative director of Development
Speaker 3: Novel m