WEBVTT - Bonus Ep 1: Help! I’m a journalist!

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<v Speaker 1>Novel. Hey listeners, this is Ellie Flynn. I'm so happy

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<v Speaker 1>The Bunny Trap is out in the world and finding

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<v Speaker 1>listeners like you. If you haven't listened to the full

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<v Speaker 1>series yet, make sure you do. It's the story of

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<v Speaker 1>a group of glamor models from the UK who band

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<v Speaker 1>together to call out Luis Gomez, a photographer they accused

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<v Speaker 1>of abuse. Reporting on this took me years and to

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<v Speaker 1>places I never expected, through the English countryside, to a

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<v Speaker 1>weird glamor event in Orlando, Florida, and a dusty ghost

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<v Speaker 1>town outside of Las Vegas. We spoke to so many

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<v Speaker 1>people and made countless decisions along the way, decisions about

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<v Speaker 1>what leeds to follow, who to speak to next, and

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<v Speaker 1>how best to tell this story. My team and I

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<v Speaker 1>aren't quite ready to let this series go just yet,

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<v Speaker 1>so we've got three bonus episodes for you. We interviewed

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<v Speaker 1>so many brilliant and helpful people along the way, but

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<v Speaker 1>for one reason or another, not all of those interviews

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<v Speaker 1>made it into the series. All of them were crucial

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<v Speaker 1>to how we put this series together, though, so we're

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<v Speaker 1>bringing them to you now. Firstly, I want to bring

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<v Speaker 1>you an interview I did at the very start of production,

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<v Speaker 1>which was really important in shaping how we told this story,

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<v Speaker 1>from the way we conducted interviews with models all the

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<v Speaker 1>way through to the wording we used in the final scripts.

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<v Speaker 1>From the team at Novel, you're listening to the Bunny

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<v Speaker 1>Trap Bonus episode one Help. I'm a journalist. HER's a

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<v Speaker 1>charity that works with media professionals and journalists like me,

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<v Speaker 1>as well as the people we interview, to help us

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<v Speaker 1>report better on topics that sometimes aren't properly represented in

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<v Speaker 1>mainstream media. I'm talking trans issues, climate change, migration, and poverty,

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<v Speaker 1>topics where the people affected often aren't actually listened to

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<v Speaker 1>or given a platform. HERD helps to equip the journalists

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<v Speaker 1>working on these stories with the tools to tell those

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<v Speaker 1>stories with sensitivity and nuance and in ways that make

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<v Speaker 1>the contributors we interview feel well heard. One of the

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<v Speaker 1>areas that HERD focuses on is helping journalists tell stories

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<v Speaker 1>about sexual abuse, and so I caught up with two

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<v Speaker 1>staff members at HERD to find out more about their work.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Zeno, project coordinator, and I'm Kara and I'm a

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<v Speaker 2>project manager working on our Ingles project.

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<v Speaker 1>Zeno Okaka and kiaravare both work on Herd's Angles Campaign,

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<v Speaker 1>a program that was started in the wake of the

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<v Speaker 1>Med Too movement in twenty sixteen to create better understanding

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<v Speaker 1>of sexual violence and domestic abuse in the media. With

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<v Speaker 1>the team, it heard was central to the way we

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<v Speaker 1>interviewed the glamor models at the heart of this story

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<v Speaker 1>and how we navigated some of the thorny issues this

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<v Speaker 1>series brought up, so we wanted you to hear from

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<v Speaker 1>them too. So what exactly does the Angle's Campaign do

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<v Speaker 1>for projects in the media.

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<v Speaker 3>We started supporting people with leave the experience of sexual

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<v Speaker 3>and domestic abuse to share their stories with the media

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<v Speaker 3>in a way that changes the conversations but also opens

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<v Speaker 3>up a better understanding of these issues.

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<v Speaker 1>And how do you go about that? How do you

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<v Speaker 1>create a safe environment for survivors to tell their stories.

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<v Speaker 2>The first thing is we bring together people with the

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<v Speaker 2>experience of sexual and or domestic abuse, training them to

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<v Speaker 2>be able to talk about this story in a safe

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<v Speaker 2>and strategic way, so make sure their messages are heard

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<v Speaker 2>and understood by audiences, but also that they can do

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<v Speaker 2>this work in a way that feels sustainable to them.

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<v Speaker 2>And then we have informal behind the scenes conversations with

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<v Speaker 2>journalists producers, what have you support them to understand the

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<v Speaker 2>stories that people with this experience want to be told

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<v Speaker 2>and support them to understand what the issue is.

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<v Speaker 1>When HERD works with survivors of sexual abuse, they give

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<v Speaker 1>them loads of practical strategies to help them feel comfortable

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<v Speaker 1>enough to share their story with the media.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the first things that we really work with

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<v Speaker 2>people to understand is the control that they have in

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<v Speaker 2>situations like this, giving them the things to think about before, during,

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<v Speaker 2>and after an interview, so whether that's the questions that

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<v Speaker 2>they need to ask, the things that they are entitled to,

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<v Speaker 2>and helping them to understand that it's a relationship that

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<v Speaker 2>they're having with the journalists. There's a give and take

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<v Speaker 2>to it, like it's okay to have an agenda, it's

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<v Speaker 2>okay to have something that you want to get out

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<v Speaker 2>of the interview, and also reminding them that they don't

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<v Speaker 2>have to do it alone, so you can have a

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<v Speaker 2>friend with you, you can have an ally with you,

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<v Speaker 2>or you can say sorry, this opportunity is not for me,

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<v Speaker 2>this is not the right time for me, and pass

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<v Speaker 2>it on to someone else that is better suited.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and why is that so important on both ends

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<v Speaker 1>of the spectrum, you know, for journalists to really understand

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<v Speaker 1>the people they are interviewing, but also for the people

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<v Speaker 1>who are telling their stories.

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<v Speaker 3>In this case sexual and domestic abuse. We live in

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<v Speaker 3>a world where we absorb these ideas and stereotypes through

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<v Speaker 3>you know, watching TV, like hearing the news, and so

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<v Speaker 3>having conversations in the media that are realistic and nuanced

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<v Speaker 3>and that really like center people instead of you know,

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<v Speaker 3>the sensational storyline. It's really important to grow as a

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<v Speaker 3>society towards a way of like looking at these issues

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<v Speaker 3>that can have an impact for the people affected. One

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<v Speaker 3>thing that one survivors said is like, as survivors, because

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<v Speaker 3>of what we went through, we've been let down by institutions,

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<v Speaker 3>sometimes family, friends, and when we trust the media with

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<v Speaker 3>our story and then they don't approach us or engaged

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<v Speaker 3>with us in a sensitive way, and that might mean

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<v Speaker 3>you know, not giving them the control over the narratives

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<v Speaker 3>that they want to share, or just like in doing

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<v Speaker 3>an interview and then don't follow up with when this

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<v Speaker 3>is going to be released or involving them in the

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<v Speaker 3>process of sharing their story. This can feel very traumatizing

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<v Speaker 3>and it feels like they've been abused by yet another institution,

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<v Speaker 3>and surely like there's no my level, you know, intention

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<v Speaker 3>behind that from the journey's perspective most of the times

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<v Speaker 3>and journeys want to get it right. But then we

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<v Speaker 3>really need to be aware of what our behaviors are

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<v Speaker 3>reinforcing in how they've been treated generally by society.

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<v Speaker 1>What are some of the main stereotypes that you want

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<v Speaker 1>to break down when it comes to reporting on this area.

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<v Speaker 2>But the first thing is assuming that it's the survivors

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<v Speaker 2>for that they should have just a certain way done,

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<v Speaker 2>a certain thing left earlier, what have you. But I

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<v Speaker 2>think also just helping people to understand what abuse looks

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<v Speaker 2>like and like the TV shows that we watch, if

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<v Speaker 2>we're seeing the same thing over and over again when

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<v Speaker 2>we're approached by you know, for example, some of the

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<v Speaker 2>different gender saying, Hey, I'm being abused by my boyfriend

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<v Speaker 2>what have you? Not intentionally we're going to assume that

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<v Speaker 2>that can't be quite true because that's not what I've

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<v Speaker 2>seen in the media. We have a stereotypical idea that

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<v Speaker 2>it's only a certain gender, it's only physical and so

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<v Speaker 2>that's why it's important to tell different kinds of stories

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<v Speaker 2>of abuse. It's uncomfortable to talk about abuse. It's uncomfortable

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<v Speaker 2>to think that you know, people close to you might

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<v Speaker 2>be going through something difficult or be perpetrating something difficult.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's fine to acknowledge the difficulty, but we also

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<v Speaker 2>need to then do something about it, talk about the

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<v Speaker 2>solutions as well.

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<v Speaker 1>I imagine there's like a real scale of kind of you know,

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<v Speaker 1>really really awful reporting through to reporting that's well intentioned,

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<v Speaker 1>but that has some things in it that can be

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<v Speaker 1>probably for people who work in that industry or who

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<v Speaker 1>are victims of survivors. But what are some of the

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<v Speaker 1>common pitfalls that easy when people do report on the

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<v Speaker 1>sex industry or on the glamor industry.

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<v Speaker 3>Language is really important, and I think we're prone to

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<v Speaker 3>use language when it comes to reporting on these issues

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<v Speaker 3>in a way that it's sometimes dehumanizing and it doesn't

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<v Speaker 3>take into account how the person wants to be described,

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<v Speaker 3>what the personal experience looks like. I mean, reporting on

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<v Speaker 3>sexual abuse is problematic and can be problematic always. What

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<v Speaker 3>we want to do is like reframing this conversation towards

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<v Speaker 3>a more societal approach to sexual and domestic abuse. To

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<v Speaker 3>see how we all play a part to make this

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<v Speaker 3>issue as big as it is, and we often hear like,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, institutions can really change, like this is such

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<v Speaker 3>a big problem, Like how can we tackle it? And

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<v Speaker 3>what these narratives do in people's mind is that people

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<v Speaker 3>he's engaged with the topic and your audience like where

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<v Speaker 3>their minds will go when they hear the stop it

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<v Speaker 3>without hearing that actually we all have a part to play,

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<v Speaker 3>there are solutions, and even just showing there are places

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<v Speaker 3>where these solutions are already implemented and it's still working.

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<v Speaker 1>Kira's point was instrumental in making sure we gave the

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<v Speaker 1>women at the heart of the story's space to be

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<v Speaker 1>represented and related to as people beyond what they do

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<v Speaker 1>for work. After the break, I get some specific advice

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<v Speaker 1>on how to report this story. Some of the women

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<v Speaker 1>I spoke to in The Bunny Trap identify as sex workers,

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<v Speaker 1>and while others don't identify with that, many people would

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<v Speaker 1>see them that way. Kiara says that sex workers who've

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<v Speaker 1>experienced sexual abuse can find it even more difficult than

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<v Speaker 1>others to share their stories with the media.

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<v Speaker 3>For the purpose of like the conversation around stereotypes and abuse.

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<v Speaker 3>This is where we really hate a wall. Like we

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<v Speaker 3>are prone to think that sex workers can't be abused

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<v Speaker 3>because of the work that they choose, but actually what

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<v Speaker 3>we don't normally focus on is, you know, the wider

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<v Speaker 3>societal patriarchal contexts that allows women to be exploited in

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<v Speaker 3>this way even when they choose to do this for

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<v Speaker 3>a living, which is beyond that to judge in moral terms.

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<v Speaker 3>And so we go back to how do we bring

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<v Speaker 3>the conversation back to what the real issue is and

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<v Speaker 3>not what people want to see as the issue. So

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<v Speaker 3>it's really important that we reframe the way that we

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<v Speaker 3>think and talk about use in the glamor and sexual workspace.

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<v Speaker 1>If you were to give me some advice when it

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<v Speaker 1>comes to interviewing victims or people with experiences in this area,

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<v Speaker 1>how best can I interview someone without either ret traumatizing

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<v Speaker 1>them or falling victim to any of those sort of

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<v Speaker 1>stereotypes or tropes that we've been speaking about.

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<v Speaker 2>You won't be able to get everything right, like you

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<v Speaker 2>will make mistakes, and that's fine, like we're all human.

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<v Speaker 2>I will say the first thing that when you're interviewing

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<v Speaker 2>someone is always ask and have that conversation with them,

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<v Speaker 2>because that can be huge in setting the foundation for

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<v Speaker 2>the relationship going forward. Have that conversation before the interview

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<v Speaker 2>to ask them what do you need? How can I

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<v Speaker 2>describe this? And how can I say that? And just

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<v Speaker 2>checking with them also about like what are your triggers,

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<v Speaker 2>what is it that I need to avoid? What are

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<v Speaker 2>your boundaries, and encouraging them to think about that as well,

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<v Speaker 2>simple things like encouraging them to have someone to support them,

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<v Speaker 2>have someone to help them prepare if you have an

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<v Speaker 2>editor who's probably going to change things, telling them like, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>like I'm going to do my best to make sure

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<v Speaker 2>you're represented well. But if things change, this is why

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<v Speaker 2>explain to people reasons and keeping in touch and then

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<v Speaker 2>afterwards a simple well done. I really appreciate that, which

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<v Speaker 2>a surprising amount of times doesn't always happen. It's just

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<v Speaker 2>really simple things.

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<v Speaker 1>One thing that we have faced in this production, and

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<v Speaker 1>I guess as a starting point, podcasts take a long

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<v Speaker 1>time to make anyway, because you know, you have an

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<v Speaker 1>interview process and there's an editing process. This is a

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<v Speaker 1>big investigation, so it was already going to be a

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<v Speaker 1>long process. Do you have any advice on sort of

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<v Speaker 1>how best to handle people who have told their stories

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<v Speaker 1>when there are delays, and how to kind of manage

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<v Speaker 1>expectations when sometimes things take quite a long time to

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<v Speaker 1>put together and to put out there.

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<v Speaker 3>For people to know that you haven't forgotten them, You're

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<v Speaker 3>still very grateful for their sharing their stories, but you're

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<v Speaker 3>realistic about how the process works and how the industry works,

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<v Speaker 3>and the obstacles that you might face. Yeah, So like

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<v Speaker 3>being honest, like keeping in touch, like sending updates, and

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<v Speaker 3>making sure that you don't forget the people that you

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<v Speaker 3>worked with in the process, I think is really important.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the things I wanted to speak to the

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<v Speaker 1>team I heard about was whether they had any advice

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<v Speaker 1>for me on how to cover a story about one

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<v Speaker 1>man that many women are making allegations against.

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<v Speaker 3>I think the really important thing to remember, especially when

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<v Speaker 3>there are like a lot of allegations, is not to

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<v Speaker 3>fall into the trap of demonizing and I think finding

0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:40.599
<v Speaker 3>a way to report without falling into that trap and

0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:44.400
<v Speaker 3>showing that it could be anyone because of how what

0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:46.600
<v Speaker 3>is spread in the society. Issue is it's like, how

0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:52.400
<v Speaker 3>can we understand that these patterns and these circumstances are

0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:55.640
<v Speaker 3>not the exceptional, especially if you're a woman, like every

0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:58.240
<v Speaker 3>woman listening to this podcast, like we have been in

0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.160
<v Speaker 3>a position of feeling very uncomfort or because of you know,

0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:05.920
<v Speaker 3>the paradynamics that gender and age and all the components

0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:08.839
<v Speaker 3>of this story might put on the plead that's the

0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:11.040
<v Speaker 3>key on how you can sweitch the conversation.

0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:18.520
<v Speaker 1>So for me, this story has always been about power.

0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:22.640
<v Speaker 1>I think a huge part of it as well is

0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:26.680
<v Speaker 1>the stigma that everyone has that you know, the general

0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:30.240
<v Speaker 1>public has about sex workers, and even just two girls

0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:32.400
<v Speaker 1>that I've spoken to the way they try to kind

0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:34.280
<v Speaker 1>of get this out there and try to get people

0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:36.320
<v Speaker 1>to listen for quite a long time, but just really

0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.280
<v Speaker 1>felt like nobody took them seriously or like there was

0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:42.160
<v Speaker 1>a real sense that like, well why did you go

0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:43.920
<v Speaker 1>on the photo shoot? And it was like they never

0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:47.360
<v Speaker 1>they felt like they would never listen to from the start.

0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:50.840
<v Speaker 1>And so for me, those have been the two most

0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:54.280
<v Speaker 1>important things to get across that kind of being a

0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:57.600
<v Speaker 1>sex worker doesn't make you any less of a victim

0:14:57.760 --> 0:14:59.520
<v Speaker 1>or any less susceptible to this, and that this is

0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:02.560
<v Speaker 1>really about power. And I guess with that in mind,

0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:06.400
<v Speaker 1>do you have any specific advice about how I can

0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:08.600
<v Speaker 1>frame that in this podcast and what to keep in mind.

0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:13.160
<v Speaker 3>Everything can be boiled down to the importance of bringing

0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:17.960
<v Speaker 3>honor to victims and how actually, when you talk to survivors,

0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:22.560
<v Speaker 3>what they really need is that recognition from their community

0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:26.440
<v Speaker 3>or the society that you know, the rights that they've

0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:30.480
<v Speaker 3>been deprived by their perpetrators are now being restated by

0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:33.840
<v Speaker 3>being believed. And like, we know why this was possible, right,

0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:36.800
<v Speaker 3>We know about the power imbalance, we know about the stigma,

0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:40.080
<v Speaker 3>and yet you know there are human beings that are

0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:43.080
<v Speaker 3>still the humanized in the way that they experience these

0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:47.680
<v Speaker 3>issues because of the stereotypes around sex workers in this case.

0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:50.520
<v Speaker 2>So if you're telling a new story about the way

0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:55.000
<v Speaker 2>we talk about survivors, repeat the human aspect of the

0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:58.160
<v Speaker 2>person that has been affected by this, and I think

0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:01.880
<v Speaker 2>that will supporting helping people to remember that like, hey,

0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:03.640
<v Speaker 2>this is not this individual's.

0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:08.360
<v Speaker 3>Fault, showing the systemic, institutional like societal impact of this

0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:11.400
<v Speaker 3>issue and not the individual one, not this person that

0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:14.920
<v Speaker 3>made this choice, but all of us and how we

0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:18.120
<v Speaker 3>all contributed to turning a blind eye.

0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:20.600
<v Speaker 1>As for how to get justice for the women in

0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:23.360
<v Speaker 1>our story, it was heard that first put me onto

0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:25.440
<v Speaker 1>the idea that it doesn't always have to be through

0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:26.120
<v Speaker 1>the courts.

0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:29.480
<v Speaker 3>When it comes to sexual violence, we tend to focus

0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:34.120
<v Speaker 3>on achieving justice through justice systems, but unfortunately we know

0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:38.240
<v Speaker 3>that when it comes to survivors, there's a very high

0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:42.240
<v Speaker 3>chance of not experiencing any form of justice through normal

0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:46.200
<v Speaker 3>institutional systems. And so we also know that what a

0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:51.680
<v Speaker 3>survivor or victim needs is often opposed to the requirements

0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:56.240
<v Speaker 3>of legal proceedings. Social acknowledgement and support, power and control

0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:58.800
<v Speaker 3>over their stories in a way that they can share

0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:03.280
<v Speaker 3>in their own terms, and also control over the exposure

0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:06.240
<v Speaker 3>that they have when it comes to the trauma that

0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:12.359
<v Speaker 3>they experience. And if we heal that relationship through believing

0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:15.080
<v Speaker 3>in a person to giving them a platform to actually

0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:18.000
<v Speaker 3>share their stories in a way that is not traumatizing

0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:22.439
<v Speaker 3>it it's liberating. It really can bring a sense of

0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:26.159
<v Speaker 3>justice to the person that is doing the talking. The

0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:30.920
<v Speaker 3>media can have a role and a power in giving

0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:35.159
<v Speaker 3>a victim or a survivor the sense of justice that

0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:39.120
<v Speaker 3>they need by just showing that they believe in them,

0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:42.359
<v Speaker 3>giving them a platform and giving them their voice to

0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:45.119
<v Speaker 3>say this happened to me. This is the way it

0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:48.760
<v Speaker 3>impacted me, and people might believe it or might not

0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:52.679
<v Speaker 3>believe it. But if we represent people's stories in a

0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:57.120
<v Speaker 3>way that they're happy with, they know it's acre and

0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:00.840
<v Speaker 3>they know it brings them justice because it sures the

0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:04.800
<v Speaker 3>reality of this cave of the issue, then I think

0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:07.240
<v Speaker 3>there is a comftability in that there is a comfortability

0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:11.199
<v Speaker 3>in having played the party, in giving the vice, and

0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:14.280
<v Speaker 3>that's what you're doing with your podcast.

0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:23.239
<v Speaker 1>This final message from Kiara and Zeno really resonated with

0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:26.160
<v Speaker 1>me that telling this story and getting it out there

0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:29.720
<v Speaker 1>could be a form of justice. It was this motivation

0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:33.119
<v Speaker 1>that I held on to throughout reporting on this story. Really,

0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:35.000
<v Speaker 1>it's what fueled me since I started out as a

0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:38.879
<v Speaker 1>journalist telling stories about women and stories about power and

0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:42.000
<v Speaker 1>how sometimes that power is abused, stories that can make

0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:49.919
<v Speaker 1>a difference just by being told. Thanks for joining us

0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:52.800
<v Speaker 1>on the first bonus episode of The Bunny Trap. We've

0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:56.320
<v Speaker 1>got two more bonus episodes for you. Next time, you'll

0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.240
<v Speaker 1>hear more about me, my background in reporting on stories

0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:02.040
<v Speaker 1>about women and the sex industry, and how that led

0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:05.080
<v Speaker 1>to the fateful email landing in my inbox, the one

0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:17.800
<v Speaker 1>that kicked off this whole series. We contacted Luis Gomez

0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:21.240
<v Speaker 1>multiple times for comment, but we never heard back. He

0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:23.720
<v Speaker 1>has not been charged with any crimes and is presumed

0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:27.919
<v Speaker 1>innocent under the law. We also sought comment from Playboy USA.

0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:31.399
<v Speaker 1>They declined our requests for an interview, but stated that

0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:34.600
<v Speaker 1>they asked their licensees to blacklist the photographer mentioned in

0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:37.639
<v Speaker 1>this series and that they prohibit paid to play the

0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:47.280
<v Speaker 1>practice of charging models to appear in magazines. The Bunny

0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:50.440
<v Speaker 1>Trap is produced by Novel. For more from Novel, visit

0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:55.919
<v Speaker 1>novel the audio. The show is hosted by me Ellie Flynn.

0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:58.399
<v Speaker 1>You can find me on social media by searching my

0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:03.560
<v Speaker 1>name That's Ellie Flynn f l Y double N. This

0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:07.040
<v Speaker 1>series is produced by Eleana Biggs and this episode is

0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:11.280
<v Speaker 1>produced by Malia Sortland, additional production from Lee Meyer and

0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:16.280
<v Speaker 1>Saskia Collette. The editors are Georgia Moody and Austin Mitchell Are.

0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:20.920
<v Speaker 1>Executive producers are Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan. Production management

0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:24.520
<v Speaker 1>from Scherie Houston and Charlotte Wolf. Sound design, mixing and

0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:28.719
<v Speaker 1>scoring by Daniel Kempson and Nicholas Alexander. Music supervision by

0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:33.600
<v Speaker 1>Nicholas Alexander, Eleanor Biggs and Max O'Brien, original music composed

0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:37.640
<v Speaker 1>and performed by Jak Long, and additional production by Nicholas Alexander,

0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:41.880
<v Speaker 1>Louisa Gerstein and Daniel Kempson. The series artwork was designed

0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:45.800
<v Speaker 1>by Christina Limcole Willard Foxtons, creative director of Development

0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:01.080
<v Speaker 3>Novel m