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Speaker 1: Novel. Hey listeners, this is Ellie Flynn. I'm so happy

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Speaker 1: The Bunny Trap is out in the world and finding

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Speaker 1: listeners like you. If you haven't listened to the full

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Speaker 1: series yet, make sure you do. It's the story of

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Speaker 1: a group of glamor models from the UK who band

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Speaker 1: together to call out Luis Gomez, a photographer they accused

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Speaker 1: of abuse. Reporting on this took me years and to

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Speaker 1: places I never expected, through the English countryside, to a

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Speaker 1: weird glamor event in Orlando, Florida, and a dusty ghost

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Speaker 1: town outside of Las Vegas. We spoke to so many

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Speaker 1: people and made countless decisions along the way, decisions about

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Speaker 1: what leeds to follow, who to speak to next, and

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Speaker 1: how best to tell this story. My team and I

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Speaker 1: aren't quite ready to let this series go just yet,

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Speaker 1: so we've got three bonus episodes for you. We interviewed

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Speaker 1: so many brilliant and helpful people along the way, but

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Speaker 1: for one reason or another, not all of those interviews

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Speaker 1: made it into the series. All of them were crucial

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Speaker 1: to how we put this series together, though, so we're

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Speaker 1: bringing them to you now. Firstly, I want to bring

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Speaker 1: you an interview I did at the very start of production,

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Speaker 1: which was really important in shaping how we told this story,

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Speaker 1: from the way we conducted interviews with models all the

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Speaker 1: way through to the wording we used in the final scripts.

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Speaker 1: From the team at Novel, you're listening to the Bunny

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Speaker 1: Trap Bonus episode one Help. I'm a journalist. HER's a

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Speaker 1: charity that works with media professionals and journalists like me,

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Speaker 1: as well as the people we interview, to help us

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Speaker 1: report better on topics that sometimes aren't properly represented in

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Speaker 1: mainstream media. I'm talking trans issues, climate change, migration, and poverty,

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Speaker 1: topics where the people affected often aren't actually listened to

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Speaker 1: or given a platform. HERD helps to equip the journalists

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Speaker 1: working on these stories with the tools to tell those

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Speaker 1: stories with sensitivity and nuance and in ways that make

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Speaker 1: the contributors we interview feel well heard. One of the

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Speaker 1: areas that HERD focuses on is helping journalists tell stories

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Speaker 1: about sexual abuse, and so I caught up with two

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Speaker 1: staff members at HERD to find out more about their work.

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Speaker 2: I'm Zeno, project coordinator, and I'm Kara and I'm a

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Speaker 2: project manager working on our Ingles project.

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Speaker 1: Zeno Okaka and kiaravare both work on Herd's Angles Campaign,

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Speaker 1: a program that was started in the wake of the

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Speaker 1: Med Too movement in twenty sixteen to create better understanding

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Speaker 1: of sexual violence and domestic abuse in the media. With

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Speaker 1: the team, it heard was central to the way we

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Speaker 1: interviewed the glamor models at the heart of this story

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Speaker 1: and how we navigated some of the thorny issues this

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Speaker 1: series brought up, so we wanted you to hear from

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Speaker 1: them too. So what exactly does the Angle's Campaign do

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Speaker 1: for projects in the media.

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Speaker 3: We started supporting people with leave the experience of sexual

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Speaker 3: and domestic abuse to share their stories with the media

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Speaker 3: in a way that changes the conversations but also opens

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Speaker 3: up a better understanding of these issues.

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Speaker 1: And how do you go about that? How do you

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Speaker 1: create a safe environment for survivors to tell their stories.

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Speaker 2: The first thing is we bring together people with the

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Speaker 2: experience of sexual and or domestic abuse, training them to

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Speaker 2: be able to talk about this story in a safe

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Speaker 2: and strategic way, so make sure their messages are heard

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Speaker 2: and understood by audiences, but also that they can do

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Speaker 2: this work in a way that feels sustainable to them.

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Speaker 2: And then we have informal behind the scenes conversations with

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Speaker 2: journalists producers, what have you support them to understand the

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Speaker 2: stories that people with this experience want to be told

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Speaker 2: and support them to understand what the issue is.

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Speaker 1: When HERD works with survivors of sexual abuse, they give

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Speaker 1: them loads of practical strategies to help them feel comfortable

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Speaker 1: enough to share their story with the media.

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Speaker 2: One of the first things that we really work with

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Speaker 2: people to understand is the control that they have in

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Speaker 2: situations like this, giving them the things to think about before, during,

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Speaker 2: and after an interview, so whether that's the questions that

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Speaker 2: they need to ask, the things that they are entitled to,

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Speaker 2: and helping them to understand that it's a relationship that

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Speaker 2: they're having with the journalists. There's a give and take

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Speaker 2: to it, like it's okay to have an agenda, it's

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Speaker 2: okay to have something that you want to get out

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Speaker 2: of the interview, and also reminding them that they don't

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Speaker 2: have to do it alone, so you can have a

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Speaker 2: friend with you, you can have an ally with you,

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Speaker 2: or you can say sorry, this opportunity is not for me,

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Speaker 2: this is not the right time for me, and pass

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Speaker 2: it on to someone else that is better suited.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and why is that so important on both ends

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Speaker 1: of the spectrum, you know, for journalists to really understand

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Speaker 1: the people they are interviewing, but also for the people

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Speaker 1: who are telling their stories.

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Speaker 3: In this case sexual and domestic abuse. We live in

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Speaker 3: a world where we absorb these ideas and stereotypes through

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Speaker 3: you know, watching TV, like hearing the news, and so

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Speaker 3: having conversations in the media that are realistic and nuanced

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Speaker 3: and that really like center people instead of you know,

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Speaker 3: the sensational storyline. It's really important to grow as a

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Speaker 3: society towards a way of like looking at these issues

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Speaker 3: that can have an impact for the people affected. One

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Speaker 3: thing that one survivors said is like, as survivors, because

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Speaker 3: of what we went through, we've been let down by institutions,

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Speaker 3: sometimes family, friends, and when we trust the media with

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Speaker 3: our story and then they don't approach us or engaged

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Speaker 3: with us in a sensitive way, and that might mean

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Speaker 3: you know, not giving them the control over the narratives

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Speaker 3: that they want to share, or just like in doing

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Speaker 3: an interview and then don't follow up with when this

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Speaker 3: is going to be released or involving them in the

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Speaker 3: process of sharing their story. This can feel very traumatizing

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Speaker 3: and it feels like they've been abused by yet another institution,

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Speaker 3: and surely like there's no my level, you know, intention

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Speaker 3: behind that from the journey's perspective most of the times

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Speaker 3: and journeys want to get it right. But then we

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Speaker 3: really need to be aware of what our behaviors are

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Speaker 3: reinforcing in how they've been treated generally by society.

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Speaker 1: What are some of the main stereotypes that you want

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Speaker 1: to break down when it comes to reporting on this area.

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Speaker 2: But the first thing is assuming that it's the survivors

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Speaker 2: for that they should have just a certain way done,

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Speaker 2: a certain thing left earlier, what have you. But I

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Speaker 2: think also just helping people to understand what abuse looks

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Speaker 2: like and like the TV shows that we watch, if

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Speaker 2: we're seeing the same thing over and over again when

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Speaker 2: we're approached by you know, for example, some of the

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Speaker 2: different gender saying, Hey, I'm being abused by my boyfriend

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Speaker 2: what have you? Not intentionally we're going to assume that

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Speaker 2: that can't be quite true because that's not what I've

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Speaker 2: seen in the media. We have a stereotypical idea that

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Speaker 2: it's only a certain gender, it's only physical and so

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Speaker 2: that's why it's important to tell different kinds of stories

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Speaker 2: of abuse. It's uncomfortable to talk about abuse. It's uncomfortable

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Speaker 2: to think that you know, people close to you might

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Speaker 2: be going through something difficult or be perpetrating something difficult.

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Speaker 2: But it's fine to acknowledge the difficulty, but we also

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Speaker 2: need to then do something about it, talk about the

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Speaker 2: solutions as well.

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Speaker 1: I imagine there's like a real scale of kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: really really awful reporting through to reporting that's well intentioned,

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Speaker 1: but that has some things in it that can be

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Speaker 1: probably for people who work in that industry or who

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Speaker 1: are victims of survivors. But what are some of the

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Speaker 1: common pitfalls that easy when people do report on the

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Speaker 1: sex industry or on the glamor industry.

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Speaker 3: Language is really important, and I think we're prone to

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Speaker 3: use language when it comes to reporting on these issues

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Speaker 3: in a way that it's sometimes dehumanizing and it doesn't

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Speaker 3: take into account how the person wants to be described,

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Speaker 3: what the personal experience looks like. I mean, reporting on

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Speaker 3: sexual abuse is problematic and can be problematic always. What

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Speaker 3: we want to do is like reframing this conversation towards

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Speaker 3: a more societal approach to sexual and domestic abuse. To

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Speaker 3: see how we all play a part to make this

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Speaker 3: issue as big as it is, and we often hear like,

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Speaker 3: you know, institutions can really change, like this is such

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Speaker 3: a big problem, Like how can we tackle it? And

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Speaker 3: what these narratives do in people's mind is that people

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Speaker 3: he's engaged with the topic and your audience like where

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Speaker 3: their minds will go when they hear the stop it

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Speaker 3: without hearing that actually we all have a part to play,

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Speaker 3: there are solutions, and even just showing there are places

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Speaker 3: where these solutions are already implemented and it's still working.

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Speaker 1: Kira's point was instrumental in making sure we gave the

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Speaker 1: women at the heart of the story's space to be

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Speaker 1: represented and related to as people beyond what they do

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Speaker 1: for work. After the break, I get some specific advice

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Speaker 1: on how to report this story. Some of the women

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Speaker 1: I spoke to in The Bunny Trap identify as sex workers,

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Speaker 1: and while others don't identify with that, many people would

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Speaker 1: see them that way. Kiara says that sex workers who've

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Speaker 1: experienced sexual abuse can find it even more difficult than

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Speaker 1: others to share their stories with the media.

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Speaker 3: For the purpose of like the conversation around stereotypes and abuse.

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Speaker 3: This is where we really hate a wall. Like we

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Speaker 3: are prone to think that sex workers can't be abused

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Speaker 3: because of the work that they choose, but actually what

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Speaker 3: we don't normally focus on is, you know, the wider

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Speaker 3: societal patriarchal contexts that allows women to be exploited in

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Speaker 3: this way even when they choose to do this for

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Speaker 3: a living, which is beyond that to judge in moral terms.

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Speaker 3: And so we go back to how do we bring

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Speaker 3: the conversation back to what the real issue is and

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Speaker 3: not what people want to see as the issue. So

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Speaker 3: it's really important that we reframe the way that we

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Speaker 3: think and talk about use in the glamor and sexual workspace.

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Speaker 1: If you were to give me some advice when it

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Speaker 1: comes to interviewing victims or people with experiences in this area,

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Speaker 1: how best can I interview someone without either ret traumatizing

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Speaker 1: them or falling victim to any of those sort of

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Speaker 1: stereotypes or tropes that we've been speaking about.

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Speaker 2: You won't be able to get everything right, like you

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Speaker 2: will make mistakes, and that's fine, like we're all human.

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Speaker 2: I will say the first thing that when you're interviewing

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Speaker 2: someone is always ask and have that conversation with them,

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Speaker 2: because that can be huge in setting the foundation for

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Speaker 2: the relationship going forward. Have that conversation before the interview

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Speaker 2: to ask them what do you need? How can I

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Speaker 2: describe this? And how can I say that? And just

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Speaker 2: checking with them also about like what are your triggers,

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Speaker 2: what is it that I need to avoid? What are

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Speaker 2: your boundaries, and encouraging them to think about that as well,

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Speaker 2: simple things like encouraging them to have someone to support them,

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Speaker 2: have someone to help them prepare if you have an

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Speaker 2: editor who's probably going to change things, telling them like, hey,

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Speaker 2: like I'm going to do my best to make sure

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Speaker 2: you're represented well. But if things change, this is why

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Speaker 2: explain to people reasons and keeping in touch and then

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Speaker 2: afterwards a simple well done. I really appreciate that, which

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Speaker 2: a surprising amount of times doesn't always happen. It's just

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Speaker 2: really simple things.

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Speaker 1: One thing that we have faced in this production, and

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Speaker 1: I guess as a starting point, podcasts take a long

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Speaker 1: time to make anyway, because you know, you have an

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Speaker 1: interview process and there's an editing process. This is a

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Speaker 1: big investigation, so it was already going to be a

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Speaker 1: long process. Do you have any advice on sort of

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Speaker 1: how best to handle people who have told their stories

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Speaker 1: when there are delays, and how to kind of manage

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Speaker 1: expectations when sometimes things take quite a long time to

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Speaker 1: put together and to put out there.

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Speaker 3: For people to know that you haven't forgotten them, You're

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Speaker 3: still very grateful for their sharing their stories, but you're

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Speaker 3: realistic about how the process works and how the industry works,

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Speaker 3: and the obstacles that you might face. Yeah, So like

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Speaker 3: being honest, like keeping in touch, like sending updates, and

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Speaker 3: making sure that you don't forget the people that you

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Speaker 3: worked with in the process, I think is really important.

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Speaker 1: One of the things I wanted to speak to the

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Speaker 1: team I heard about was whether they had any advice

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Speaker 1: for me on how to cover a story about one

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Speaker 1: man that many women are making allegations against.

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Speaker 3: I think the really important thing to remember, especially when

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Speaker 3: there are like a lot of allegations, is not to

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Speaker 3: fall into the trap of demonizing and I think finding

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Speaker 3: a way to report without falling into that trap and

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Speaker 3: showing that it could be anyone because of how what

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Speaker 3: is spread in the society. Issue is it's like, how

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Speaker 3: can we understand that these patterns and these circumstances are

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Speaker 3: not the exceptional, especially if you're a woman, like every

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Speaker 3: woman listening to this podcast, like we have been in

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Speaker 3: a position of feeling very uncomfort or because of you know,

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Speaker 3: the paradynamics that gender and age and all the components

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Speaker 3: of this story might put on the plead that's the

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Speaker 3: key on how you can sweitch the conversation.

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Speaker 1: So for me, this story has always been about power.

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Speaker 1: I think a huge part of it as well is

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Speaker 1: the stigma that everyone has that you know, the general

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Speaker 1: public has about sex workers, and even just two girls

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Speaker 1: that I've spoken to the way they try to kind

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Speaker 1: of get this out there and try to get people

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Speaker 1: to listen for quite a long time, but just really

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Speaker 1: felt like nobody took them seriously or like there was

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Speaker 1: a real sense that like, well why did you go

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Speaker 1: on the photo shoot? And it was like they never

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Speaker 1: they felt like they would never listen to from the start.

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Speaker 1: And so for me, those have been the two most

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Speaker 1: important things to get across that kind of being a

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Speaker 1: sex worker doesn't make you any less of a victim

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Speaker 1: or any less susceptible to this, and that this is

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Speaker 1: really about power. And I guess with that in mind,

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Speaker 1: do you have any specific advice about how I can

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Speaker 1: frame that in this podcast and what to keep in mind.

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Speaker 3: Everything can be boiled down to the importance of bringing

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Speaker 3: honor to victims and how actually, when you talk to survivors,

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Speaker 3: what they really need is that recognition from their community

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Speaker 3: or the society that you know, the rights that they've

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Speaker 3: been deprived by their perpetrators are now being restated by

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Speaker 3: being believed. And like, we know why this was possible, right,

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Speaker 3: We know about the power imbalance, we know about the stigma,

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Speaker 3: and yet you know there are human beings that are

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Speaker 3: still the humanized in the way that they experience these

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Speaker 3: issues because of the stereotypes around sex workers in this case.

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Speaker 2: So if you're telling a new story about the way

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Speaker 2: we talk about survivors, repeat the human aspect of the

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Speaker 2: person that has been affected by this, and I think

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Speaker 2: that will supporting helping people to remember that like, hey,

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Speaker 2: this is not this individual's.

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Speaker 3: Fault, showing the systemic, institutional like societal impact of this

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Speaker 3: issue and not the individual one, not this person that

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Speaker 3: made this choice, but all of us and how we

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Speaker 3: all contributed to turning a blind eye.

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Speaker 1: As for how to get justice for the women in

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Speaker 1: our story, it was heard that first put me onto

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Speaker 1: the idea that it doesn't always have to be through

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Speaker 1: the courts.

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Speaker 3: When it comes to sexual violence, we tend to focus

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Speaker 3: on achieving justice through justice systems, but unfortunately we know

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Speaker 3: that when it comes to survivors, there's a very high

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Speaker 3: chance of not experiencing any form of justice through normal

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Speaker 3: institutional systems. And so we also know that what a

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Speaker 3: survivor or victim needs is often opposed to the requirements

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Speaker 3: of legal proceedings. Social acknowledgement and support, power and control

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Speaker 3: over their stories in a way that they can share

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Speaker 3: in their own terms, and also control over the exposure

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Speaker 3: that they have when it comes to the trauma that

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Speaker 3: they experience. And if we heal that relationship through believing

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Speaker 3: in a person to giving them a platform to actually

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Speaker 3: share their stories in a way that is not traumatizing

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Speaker 3: it it's liberating. It really can bring a sense of

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Speaker 3: justice to the person that is doing the talking. The

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Speaker 3: media can have a role and a power in giving

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Speaker 3: a victim or a survivor the sense of justice that

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Speaker 3: they need by just showing that they believe in them,

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Speaker 3: giving them a platform and giving them their voice to

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Speaker 3: say this happened to me. This is the way it

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Speaker 3: impacted me, and people might believe it or might not

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Speaker 3: believe it. But if we represent people's stories in a

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Speaker 3: way that they're happy with, they know it's acre and

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Speaker 3: they know it brings them justice because it sures the

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Speaker 3: reality of this cave of the issue, then I think

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Speaker 3: there is a comftability in that there is a comfortability

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Speaker 3: in having played the party, in giving the vice, and

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Speaker 3: that's what you're doing with your podcast.

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Speaker 1: This final message from Kiara and Zeno really resonated with

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Speaker 1: me that telling this story and getting it out there

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Speaker 1: could be a form of justice. It was this motivation

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Speaker 1: that I held on to throughout reporting on this story. Really,

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Speaker 1: it's what fueled me since I started out as a

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Speaker 1: journalist telling stories about women and stories about power and

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Speaker 1: how sometimes that power is abused, stories that can make

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Speaker 1: a difference just by being told. Thanks for joining us

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Speaker 1: on the first bonus episode of The Bunny Trap. We've

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Speaker 1: got two more bonus episodes for you. Next time, you'll

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Speaker 1: hear more about me, my background in reporting on stories

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Speaker 1: about women and the sex industry, and how that led

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Speaker 1: to the fateful email landing in my inbox, the one

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Speaker 1: that kicked off this whole series. We contacted Luis Gomez

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Speaker 1: multiple times for comment, but we never heard back. He

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Speaker 1: has not been charged with any crimes and is presumed

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Speaker 1: innocent under the law. We also sought comment from Playboy USA.

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Speaker 1: They declined our requests for an interview, but stated that

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Speaker 1: they asked their licensees to blacklist the photographer mentioned in

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Speaker 1: this series and that they prohibit paid to play the

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Speaker 1: practice of charging models to appear in magazines. The Bunny

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Speaker 1: Trap is produced by Novel. For more from Novel, visit

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Speaker 1: novel the audio. The show is hosted by me Ellie Flynn.

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Speaker 1: You can find me on social media by searching my

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Speaker 1: name That's Ellie Flynn f l Y double N. This

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Speaker 1: series is produced by Eleana Biggs and this episode is

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Speaker 1: produced by Malia Sortland, additional production from Lee Meyer and

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Speaker 1: Saskia Collette. The editors are Georgia Moody and Austin Mitchell Are.

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Speaker 1: Executive producers are Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan. Production management

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Speaker 1: from Scherie Houston and Charlotte Wolf. Sound design, mixing and

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Speaker 1: scoring by Daniel Kempson and Nicholas Alexander. Music supervision by

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Speaker 1: Nicholas Alexander, Eleanor Biggs and Max O'Brien, original music composed

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Speaker 1: and performed by Jak Long, and additional production by Nicholas Alexander,

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Speaker 1: Louisa Gerstein and Daniel Kempson. The series artwork was designed

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Speaker 1: by Christina Limcole Willard Foxtons, creative director of Development

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Speaker 3: Novel m