WEBVTT - #303 Jason Flom with Billie Allen 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:06.200 On March seventeenth, nineteen ninety seven, two armed and masked 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:09.160 men robbed a bank in Saint Louis, Missouri, and fatally 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:12.120 shot a security guard named Richard Heflin in the process. 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:16.120 As part of their plan to destroy evidence innovade capture. 0:00:16.120 --> 0:00:20.000 They had pre soaked the getaway van with gasoline, but 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:22.599 before they got to switch from the van to a 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:27.600 second getaway vehicle, the van caught fire. One assailant, Norris Holder, 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:30.600 was arrested at the scene, but the second assailant escaped. 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:33.560 Then was described as a black man about five to nine, 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:37.360 with singed hair and an injured right hand. Norris Holder 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:41.519 told investigators that the escape bee was named John, but 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:46.800 later changed that name to Bill. Police arrested an acquaintance 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:50.880 of Holders named Billy Allen. Other than being black, Billy 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:54.560 did not match the initial descriptions, but curiously was somehow 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:59.640 identified by four witnesses, including Holder. Imagine being selected for 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:04.080 this and hearing investigators testify about an alleged confession, as 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:07.720 well as that four witnesses, including the only other assailant, 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:11.800 identify Billy Allen. You might feel pretty confident in your verdict, 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:15.800 Yet here we are almost a quarter century later to 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:20.280 publicly reveal for the very first time case breaking exculpatory 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:23.520 evidence from the state's own files that was ignored by 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:27.679 both the prosecution and the defense that I mentioned, they 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:44.600 send them to death. This is wrongful Conviction. Welcome back 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:48.320 to Wrongful Conviction. Today, we're going to do something I 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:50.920 don't think we've ever done before, which is that we're 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:56.840 covering a federal death penalty case. And we're honored. I'm 0:01:56.880 --> 0:02:00.760 honored to have Professor Mark Howard, leader of the Making 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:05.320 An exana reprogram at Georgetown. So Mark, Welcome back to 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:06.280 Wrongful Conviction. 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:08.760 Great to be back, Jason, thanks. 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:13.880 And with Mark is his distinguished co professor who has 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:18.919 also been on the podcast before more than once for 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:22.000 the right and the wrong reasons. Marty Tankliffe was wrongfully 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:27.320 convicted himself and served seventeen years when Marty was wrongfully 0:02:27.320 --> 0:02:30.160 convicted of murdering his parents, and of course he's been 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:34.840 exonerated and we've become great friends. And he also is 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:40.639 Mark's childhood friend and the co professor now at Georgetown 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:44.560 of the Making It exana reprogram. So Marty Tankliffe es choir. 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:47.600 Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:49.000 Thank you. 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:53.720 You know, the fact that we're all here today is 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:57.880 a beautiful thing, but it's also an extremely troubling thing 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:00.799 because we're here today to talk about Billy Allen, who 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:05.160 has been on death row in the federal system for 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:07.280 a quarter of a century now, ever since he was 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:08.360 nineteen years old. 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:11.280 I appreciate you, you know, you all taking an interest in 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:12.919 my story and wanting to tell it. 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:16.760 Well, Billy, yours is a story that definitely needs to 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:20.040 be told, so welcome to the show. But before we 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:22.800 get into all the details, i'd love to hear about 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:25.480 your life before this horrible scenario took place. 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:27.200 You know, I grew up in a house with three 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:29.760 sisters on the north side of Saint Louis, which was 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:32.760 I guess you can say, flooded with drugs, a lot 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:35.160 of violence and stuff like that. Even though I lived 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:38.520 in the underprivileged neighborhood, I went to school in a 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:43.520 privileged neighborhood. Clayton, Missouri, is considered probably one of the 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:46.760 wealthiest places in Missouri. You know, no matter if I 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:48.920 go out to the Clayton School district and I'm around 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:52.440 rich people, I still have to deal with my surroundings 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:54.880 when I come home, You're like, where do I fit 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:55.880 in in things? 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:58.560 It sounds like you had a foothold in these two 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:01.800 sort of hoppers worlds of haves and have nots, which 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:04.920 sounds like you could be pretty confusing. So after you 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:07.320 graduated high school and leading up to March of ninety seven, 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:08.480 what were you up to. 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:09.920 To be honest with people, You know, I was hustling 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:12.200 at the time. You know, I wasn't a big drobe 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:14.000 dealer or anything like that. I was just hustling at 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:16.120 the time. But at the same time, I was trying 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:19.200 to find my way at the time, and that's why 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:21.120 I met the you know, the girl I ended up 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:23.000 with who I was going to move in with, you know, 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:25.200 because basically I was going to get a job, stop 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:27.920 selling drugs and just I guess you could say, start 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:30.720 my growth. Not only for her, but she had a daughter, 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:32.680 so I was trying to be better for all of them. 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:35.080 So you were at a crossroads, and it sounds like 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.919 you were choosing a more promising path. But your connection 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:40.479 to the old neighborhood happened to bring you into contact 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:43.000 with one of the actual bank robbers, in this case, 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:47.200 Norris Holder. You had met him through job corps once 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:49.880 and then had a chance encounter with him years later. 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:53.880 Apparently you had sold him some weed once or vice versa, 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:57.039 and it was this chance meeting and short lived hangout 0:04:57.080 --> 0:04:59.240 just a few days before Holder committed this crime that 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:02.960 even put you into the realm of possibilities. I mean, 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:05.000 how well did you even know this older guy? 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:07.560 Well, I didn't know Holder per se. I guess you 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:09.719 can say the way they tried to, you know, sell 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:11.960 the story to my jury. When I was at the 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:14.760 club one day older I knew one of his friends 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:17.560 he was with, you know, just from my neighborhood, and 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:19.960 so you know, we end up just talking. So he's like, hey, look, 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:22.200 you know, let's hook up one day just being cordial 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:24.279 with people. Plus up. Like I said, I knew the 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:27.480 guy he was with. Then a few days, you know later, 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:29.919 I get a call from him, you know, basically like 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:31.279 hey man, you know, I'm going to go to the 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:33.240 mall and you know, I got some weed and I'm like, okay, 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:36.240 well I'm in now. But for them to make it 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:38.440 seem like we were friend, we were plot in this 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:42.120 crime or anything like that, how can you say that 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:45.040 that I would involve myself, you know, in a crime 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:47.720 of this magnitude with somebody I didn't even know. 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:50.360 Right, it doesn't make a whole hell of a lot 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:53.040 of sense until you consider the investigators in this case, 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:56.119 one of whom Joseph Nickerson is on the Saint Louis 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:59.280 DA's do not testify list, which is, by the way, 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:01.839 exactly what it sounds like. He's not allowed to testify 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:05.320 in cases because he lies so much. He's the detective, 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:08.840 by the way, from another egregious, wrongful convictioning case out 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:12.160 of Saint Louis, Lamar Johnson, who is still awaiting justice. 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:16.000 And Lamar also did some drug dealing, as did Billy, 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:19.919 so they were typical targets for this Nickerson guy. In 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:24.960 Lamar's case, Nickerson fabricated a narrative from alleged witness statements, 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:27.400 but these witnesses later denied saying any of the things 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.240 Nickerson had attributed to them, So, you know, just sat 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:34.040 around just making shit up. He perjured himself to make 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:38.800 Lamar's culpability even plausible. And then there's a cash incentivized 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:43.440 eyewitness who was convinced by investigators that the mass gunman 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.479 in this case was Lamar Johnson. So he went along 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:48.839 with the ID, which you'll see in it a bit 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:53.279 sounds eerily similar to what happened in this case. Now, 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:57.120 I believe his partner, a guy named Carol, is actually 0:06:57.160 --> 0:07:01.000 doing time now for assaulting someone who was in custody. 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:03.880 So it's patterns like these that give a helpful context 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:06.840 to what happened in Billie's case. So let's get to that. 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:11.320 The morning of March seventeenth, nineteen ninety seven, where were 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:13.720 you actually that paidful morning? 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:16.360 I had left the house early that morning, like at 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:18.960 eight o'clock in the morning. They claimed that I had 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:21.120 called holder and told them let's get ready for the 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:23.000 crime and all this stuff from the house. But how 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:24.960 can I call you from the house when I'm already gone, 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:27.400 you know. So I get to the mall early in 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:30.560 the morning, and my first stop is to the hat Zone. 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:33.000 So I went to foot Locker, and I went to 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:35.680 another story foot quarters, and right after that, I went 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:38.040 to Famous and Barb, which is a clothing store. I 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:41.440 went to this tuxedo place, and so as I'm shopping, 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:45.240 basically I see Chris Hiagog. Now Chris Chigag is a 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:47.560 security guard who was after the mall to pick up 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:49.280 his paycheck. He was like, Hey, I'm just going to 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:50.840 pick up my check and I plan to go to 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:53.640 another mall to do some shopping and stuff like that. 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:56.280 So I'm like, well, can I ride with you? I 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:57.800 was like, look, I just got to drop a few 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:00.560 items off to a girl I was dating, and so 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:02.720 he was like okay. So he went to pick up 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:05.040 his check and we left them all and I dropped 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:08.160 off a few eyed them for her baby and basically 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:10.280 gave her some money because we were moving in together. 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:12.120 And left. 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:14.840 So you'd been out of the house since eight am. 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:18.160 At the mall where you visited several stores, made several 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:21.600 points of contact, and I'm talking about people who were 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:25.000 disinterested alibi witnesses to people who didn't know you. And 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:28.880 there was also surveillance footage. So all the great alibi 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:30.920 evidence that places you away from the scene at the 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:33.319 time of the crime, none of it was investigated or 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:36.520 later presented on your behalf. So while you were shopping 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:39.880 across town, there was this bank robbery going on at 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:42.439 the Lindell Bank and Trust, which is Caddy Corner from 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:44.520 this huge park in Saint Louis that houses, the Saint 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:47.800 Louis Zoo, several museums, landmarks on golf course, this skating rink, 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:51.199 and this area is known as Forest Park. Again. This 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:54.720 is March seventeenth, nineteen ninety seven, around ten thirty five am, 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:57.920 when two masked and armed men busted down the door 0:08:58.040 --> 0:08:59.800 and told everybody to get on the ground. 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:03.560 There were two bank robbers who stole fifty thousand dollars 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:06.760 and a security guard named Richard Heflin was killed in 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:10.080 the process of that robbery, and then the two men 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:13.880 left the scene in a getaway van, drove to Forest 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:17.680 Park and they had a plan apparently to set the 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:20.559 van on fire and then get away in a different 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:23.760 vehicle that they planted there. But the van had actually 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:28.200 been pre soaked in gasoline and exploded and caught on 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:32.640 fire inside the park before sort of the full extent 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:35.000 of their plan and getaway plan could work. And so 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:39.839 the driver, a guy named Norris Holder, was still on 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:43.560 fire himself and was pulled out of the car, and 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:45.679 then the second suspect ran away. 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:49.960 So Holder was in custody almost immediately. And I've listened 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:54.120 to the dispatch tapes from that morning. It sounds pretty chaotic, 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:56.440 but ultimately it sounds like a team of folks trying 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:58.840 to bring the bank robbers and murderers of this bank 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:03.200 security guard to justice. And this is so important. Every 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:05.960 one of them described a blackmail about five eight to 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:09.120 five ten, wearing gray sweats and a blue and red 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:13.000 colored jacket, and they said he had singed hair understandably 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:15.480 since a pan was on fire, and an injured right hand. 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:17.880 They never described the person with a beard. And I 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:19.800 had a beard at the time. So if I was 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:22.320 the person who walked up to you and asked you 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:25.800 for directions, wouldn't that be one of the most descriptive 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:28.000 things you can point out about an individual. 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:31.640 Had it actually been you, they would have mentioned a beard, right, 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:34.400 That's a pretty big detail for everybody to leave out, 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:37.600 But they did not say that. They also would have 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:40.760 said over six to two instead of around five to nine. 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:45.320 Big difference there. Six' two is tall five to. Nine 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:48.080 most people would say short for it. Man and when 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:50.600 you were eventually picked, up your right hand was not 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.640 injured and your hair was not burned in any. Way 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:56.360 so if you listen to all of the dispatch tapes 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:59.120 as we, did the story remains the. Same in the immediate, 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:02.480 aftermath the assailant came over a hill from the direction 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:04.880 of the burning. Van he went toward the fence line 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:07.679 and allegedly told them that his van caught fire and 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:09.200 he needed to get to the metro. 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:11.560 Link both park, workers you, know when they first came, 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:14.040 forward they claimed that all they did was gave him 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:16.600 directions to the metro. Link the thing about it, is 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:19.360 when we get the, trial both park workers change their. 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:22.880 Story they claim they gave the person a ride outside 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:25.400 of the. Park do you KNOW i have their actual 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:30.680 recordings were police officer is standing right with, them calling 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:32.200 in the, dispatch. 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:38.280 Supervisor horstory workers and all these second subject he was 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:42.520 running east from the burning van by a construction. Trailer 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:46.040 this about J. George they had right over here by 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:47.880 the fence. Line there's a hole in the. 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:50.120 Fence one with who had exactly when he. 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:51.959 With? 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:58.360 Them and that's what we got to don't want. That 0:11:58.320 --> 0:11:58.520 that's what. 0:11:58.760 --> 0:11:59.679 Happened after we had. 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:01.000 IT i took it. 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:06.559 Off the robberies of the point influencer from a guard 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:10.280 in the block of plate that the subject with plain 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:14.520 calling under a Fat wilson Near Petual, way the block 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:15.959 on a pulley. 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:18.360 Hands and have it on a multi. 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:23.439 Collars the parkworkers just told them that they gave the person. Directions. 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:26.480 Right these park, workers along with everyone else at this, 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:29.079 point were just feeding in whatever they could to help 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:32.719 nab this. Guy no other. Agenda they pointed him in 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:35.800 the right direction and he left got away whatever through 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:39.160 a hole in the. Fence, importantly not in someone's. Car 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:43.120 giving this assailant a ride outside the park would really 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:45.600 make for a much more CREDIBLE, id which is why 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:48.280 we believe this story changed by the time of. Trial 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:51.760 but back to the immediate. Aftermath, ultimately the effort to 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:54.960 close in on the second assailant was unsuccessful and they 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:56.079 were hoping to get something out Of. 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:59.480 Holder, yeah When holder was, arrested he says the person 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:02.440 with was some guy Named. John then they threatening him 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:04.800 with the destiny and, say, hey, look whoever's the least 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:07.959 culpable is who might get lingency in this. Case so 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:10.240 basically you need to provide, us you, know with a, 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:12.679 story you, know or something that can help us out 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.280 or help you. Out so all of a sudden he 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:17.679 switches From john and he mentions my. 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:20.680 Name so now he's given them something, concrete a full 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:23.080 name and not just a name that feels chosen at. 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:24.960 Random that's the. Thing he didn't even know my last. 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:26.160 Name he just Said, bill Just. 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:26.959 Bill that's. 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:29.959 It i'll show you Where bill. Lives. Now the thing 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:34.960 about The john situation is, this throughout their, reports there's 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:38.719 a person NAMED jb who is connected To. Holder we 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:40.719 THINK jb is his. COUSIN i can't you, KNOW i 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:43.199 don't want to falsely accuse anybody or anything like, that you, 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:45.240 know but that this is what the reports are basically. 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:48.679 Saying it's my belief That holder is using me as 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:50.960 escapego to protect somebody who is close To. 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:54.880 So now you had no idea what was coming your. 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:58.440 Way did you even know that this bank robbery had taken? 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:01.360 Place, WELL i did see the crime on the news 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:05.240 when they Arrested, holder and So i'm, like, okay, well you, 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:07.160 Know i'm not involved in so it doesn't really draw 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.240 my attention to. It next, THING i, Know i'm at the, 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:12.640 apartment you, know with the GIRL i was living with 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:15.120 at the, time AND i hear some banging on the 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:18.160 door and don't know what the hell is going on 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:21.280 or anything like. THAT fbi and police officers come to my. 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:23.560 Door they arrest, me and the first THING i tell, 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:28.280 THEM i had the clothes in everything THAT i had 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:31.920 bought on the, couch AND i told the, officers, look 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:35.080 you're arresting the wrong. Person here are all the. Items 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:37.560 the receipts are still in the. Back the clothes are 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:39.160 still in the, back And i'm, like, look just go 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:41.400 to the mall and ask to see the surveillance footage 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:44.040 and basically you'll see THAT i have an alibi at 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:46.400 the time the crime took. Place you, know you can't 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:49.360 beat the. Video and so they were basically just yesing me, 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:52.560 off and so they took me down to the homicide. 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:55.120 Office and that's WHEN i kept repeating the same story 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:58.240 and that they can talk To Christian god who was 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:00.680 a security guard at the time too fine out whether 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:01.480 or NOT i was at the. 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.840 Mall, Yeah but, unfortunately they weren't interested in solving the. 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:07.800 Case they were interested in fixing the facts to match 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:12.000 the name that they got From Norris. Holder SO i, 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:15.320 Mean i'm using facts very loosely. There so you were 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:17.960 arrested around two. Am what happened next. 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:21.240 WHEN i was in the homicide, Office it's two officers 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:25.280 that came and talked to Me Thomas carroll And Joseph. 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:28.440 Nickerson NOW i told both, Officers i'm, like, look you 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:30.880 all can go to the. Mall you all can get the, 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:33.440 recordings and you all can see THAT i have an. 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:36.640 Alibi now they claim they went to the, mall yet 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:39.880 for some, reason there's no surveillance footage that can be. 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:42.960 FOUND i believe they have this footage BECAUSE i. Believe 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:45.560 and here's the. THING i reported about this before The 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:49.320 Lamar johnson. CASE i reported that they were probably withholding this, 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:52.760 evidence and come to find out years later they withheld 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:56.160 recordings In Lamar johnson. Case so it's like a pattern 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:58.320 down there dealing with these, officers. 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:01.040 A pattern that is unfortunately press event In Saint, louis 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:04.160 and let's face, it around this whole country as are 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:07.120 alleged false confessions or fabricated, statements which we'll get into 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:11.320 in a. Bit but, first what happened in that interrogation. 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:13.720 Room WHEN i first came in and as they reported their, 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:16.400 reports you, know and LIKE i told, them, LOOK i 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:18.720 didn't have anything to do with the. Crime so this 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:21.520 is when you, know both you, know officers were, like, okay, 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:25.400 well if you didn't commit this crime and give us YOUR. 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:28.400 Dna i'm, like, sure, SHIT i ain't got none to. 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:29.200 Do what you can have. 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:31.120 It WHEN i was in, PRISON i used to always 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:32.680 ask guys who would say they're. Innocent one of the 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:34.160 first Persons i'd, said would you be willing to do 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:39.760 A dna? Test and almost ninety nine point nine percent 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:42.200 of the people who are really innocent, SAID i will 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:45.640 do A dna, TEST i will do any forensic tests 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:49.480 THAT i can do to prove my. Innocence And billy 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.200 falls into the category who SAID i want to do 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:53.680 anything in everything. 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:57.560 Possible next thing they, do they'd, say the van you 0:16:57.640 --> 0:16:59.240 know that was used in the crime was soaked in, 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:01.880 gasoline you, know so if you don't have any gasoline 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:04.119 on your, clothes you, know that can help prove that 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:06.440 you weren't. There So i'm, like, okay, well, here you 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:09.240 can have all of my. Clothes SO i willingly gave 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:10.639 him MY dna and my. 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:14.560 CLOTHES i mean the fact that this entire case was 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:18.280 covered in, gasoline so to, speak And billy has none on. 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:21.000 Him they tested the co defendant his clothes were sure, 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:23.879 enough every inch of them had gasoline residue on. 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:27.840 Him billy had a credible. ALIBI dna test results came back. 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:30.960 Negative they left open the question WHOSE dna is? It 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:35.119 and that hasn't been, pursued hasn't been, shown but it's 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:35.720 certainly Not. 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:38.560 Billy's so take take us back, There billy to the 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:40.040 interrogation and id. 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:43.399 Process next THING i, know AN fbi agent comes into the, 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:46.159 Room Agent Jan. Hartman you, know she started reading my. 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:48.080 Life this is the first TIME i was ever read my. 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:50.200 Life So i'm, like, well LOOK i want a lawyer 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:53.200 from the court. Period i'm done. TALKING i don't have 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:55.000 anything to. Say you all aren't going to believe. Me, 0:17:55.720 --> 0:18:00.119 so according to her trial, testimony she never told told 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:03.440 anybody about my request for an. Attorney so one officer comes, 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:06.240 in he conducted the. Lineup i'm, like, well, look you 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:08.879 know where's my attorney At and he was, like you, 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:10.720 know you don't need an attorney for. This i'm, like 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:13.119 BUT i asked for. One he's, like, well you can 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:15.639 get one. Afterword so they took me to the. Lineup 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:19.000 and now here's the crazy part about this. Lineup i'm 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:22.320 the tallest person in their damn. Lineup they have nobody 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:25.520 close to six' two in. This lineup nobody who looks 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:28.280 like me in. This lineup and to make, matters worse 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:31.800 he puts me in position. NUMBER three i am the 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:35.080 tallest person in, this Thing and i'm beside the two 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:38.440 shortest people Inside this, so basically you're giving people the 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:39.399 person you want them. 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:42.679 To pick not only is, it suggestive but it's also 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:45.120 telling about the description they. 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:49.159 Had exactly, five eight. Five ten and like, our lineup 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:51.560 a lot of people when they, envision lineup they envision 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:54.600 you behind the glass and the witnesses are outside of. 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:56.560 The Thing The saint louis if they have a piece, 0:18:56.560 --> 0:18:58.800 of cloth it's like a black piece of cloth, right 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:01.320 there so you. Can see you can actually see the 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:05.000 damn person who's basically, identifying you, you know and you can. 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:07.720 Hear them and this is just how hilarious my. Lineup 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:11.480 was This lady. I'll mcgilliam, you know they were, telling, 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:14.280 her well can you identify the person? You saw she 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:17.520 picks the person in position. Number, two now if you 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:20.400 look at this person in my, lineup photo this dude 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:24.520 has a freaking. Full beard he looks nothing, like me 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:27.280 and he fished the description that she gave of the 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:30.199 person she saw at. The crime SO now i hear. 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:33.680 This guy he comes out, and, say, hey look we 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:36.600 think it's the guy in position. Number three can we bring? 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:39.600 Him forward and you look? At him she, was like are? 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:42.600 You sure he's. Like yeah so they told the number 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:44.680 two guy go back and they take me out of, 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:47.160 the lineup and she, was, LIKE yeah i think you might. 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:47.240 Be. 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:51.440 Right wow if you go to, my transcripts she will 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:53.680 tell you she picked the guy in position. Number two 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:57.520 so why would you pick somebody five a, full beard 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:00.560 full head, of hair and yet all of a sudden 0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:03.720 you switch your account to somebody six, to two small 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:06.359 beard at. The time so come to, find out, you 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:09.840