WEBVTT - What to Do When Paul McCartney Comes Calling 0:00:02.240 --> 0:00:06.800 This is Master's in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:12.040 This week on the podcast, we have a return guest, 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:15.440 and and what a delight Lawrence Juber one of the 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:22.400 world's greatest acoustic guitarists, highly regarded by his peers. Everybody 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:26.360 who I know who is a professional or amateur musician 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:35.240 or guitarist is in awe of this guy's technical skills, prowess, musicology, musicality. 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:39.600 He is just a quadruple threat. The work he does 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:43.800 is really quite fascinating. I found him because I'm such 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:48.040 a huge Beatles fan, and his cover versions of Paul 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:54.520 McCartney's Wings and three albums of Beatles songs, it's just 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:59.080 astonishing and delightful and there's really nothing else, nothing else 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:02.480 like it. My my recording engineer Medina, was just blown 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:07.280 away by the version he did of Uh, she Loves You. 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:10.040 But any of the songs he he does are just 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:15.080 so unique to him and yet so obviously a Beatles song. 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:18.840 They're just just amazing. And what's really fascinating is the 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:23.080 depth of his musical knowledge and his understanding of the 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:27.080 history of both the guitar as an instrument and the 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:31.160 history of music and how it's developed. It's it's really fascinating. 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:34.000 I love his work. I find him fascinating. I was 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:36.360 thrilled to be able to sit here and and listen 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:39.400 to him. Um. I recorded two of his songs and 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:42.280 I put them up on YouTube. One of the Beatles. 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:46.199 The other is Little Wing, which is just insane version 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:49.760 of that song. So, with no further ado, here is 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:58.240 my conversation with Lawrence Duber, my extra special guest today, 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:01.400 is one of my very every musicians in the world. 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:05.040 His name is Lawrence Juber. He was born and raised 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:10.440 in London, uh Immediately upon graduation from university, began working 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:13.360 as a session guitarist with a little known producer named 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:18.120 George Martin. He was a studio musician on thousands of 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:22.560 sessions before he was invited by Sir Paul McCartney's band 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:26.240 Wings for their ninety eight tour. That's really what brought 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:30.760 him to wider spread public notice. He has recorded twenty 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:34.519 five solo albums, many of which have received critical acclaim. 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:38.800 He has won two Grammys. He was named top acoustic 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:43.040 guitar player of all time by Acoustic Guitar Magazine and 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:46.919 has been called a master of the acoustic guitar by 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:51.560 no less than the Who's Peter Townsend, Lawrence Juber. Welcome 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:55.399 back to Bloomberg. Happy to be here. So we could 0:02:55.440 --> 0:03:00.560 do the whole conversation with you, just answering music without 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:04.880 so before we get into the specifics, I have to 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:08.560 give you kudos. The last time you were here and 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:12.440 people I did not mention that you're also a musicologist. 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:17.519 We had a long conversation about what was the copyright 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:22.840 suit against led Zeppelin to Heaven, and you very specifically said, 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:27.440 I don't see how both of them, meaning Zeppelin and 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:33.840 the plaintiff didn't steal the music from this, this classical 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:37.320 piece of work from the fifteen hundreds or sixteen hundred. 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:40.560 And it turned out the court more or less agreed 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:42.760 with you. It was basically it was a public domain 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:47.040 and you can't steal. But you've got to look at 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:51.000 the context in terms of led Zeppelin, that they were 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:57.480 in the habit of purloining existing material. Oh really, that 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:00.760 was I mean, one can one can look at that, 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:04.160 but it's not uncommon when you say proloining. There's a 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:09.640 difference between inspired by and stolen front and like having 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:12.800 to add other composers to the credits down the line 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:15.240 when they got caught out. We just saw that happened 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:18.240 recently with with blurred Lines, and we saw that not 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:22.120 too long ago with another big song, Birdlines. Bloodlines is 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:24.560 a weird one. Yeah, I was surprised by that. It 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:27.240 was almost like the drum line was well, yeah, the 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:29.520 thing that the weird thing about it was the judge 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:33.120 didn't allow the record to be played, and yet it 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:36.240 was the groove on the record that was actually what 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:39.440 had been taken. And you know, if that was the case, 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:43.000 if groove was the issue, you know, Bo Diddley would 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:48.880 have been a multimillionaire on the basis of everybody from him, 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:52.640 whereas like Chuck Berry actually did get you know, did 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:58.839 get compensated for Beach Boys, you know, surfing USA taking, 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:01.360 you know, and John and and got sued, you know 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:04.400 because here comes on the flat top, you know, and um, 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:08.000 it's from you Can't Catch Me. It's did he lose? Yeah, 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:11.120 he loves that. And obviously George Harrison, well, but George 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:15.400 Harrison was really weird because Alan Klein owned the publishing 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:18.880 catalog for both that for both songs, so he was 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:24.680 basically himself yeah, that can that happens my my my 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:28.560 brother in law, Ross Handles, has handled the Beach Boys 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:32.480 record company for a while and there was one particular lawsuit, 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:34.599 you know, there's all this intrigue within the Beach Boys, 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:38.200 you know where Al al Jardine was on both sides 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:41.599 of a lawsuit. He was basically suing himself and the 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:44.760 judge pointed that out. So the problem with that is 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:46.920 that your legal costs or twice as much, but you're 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:50.400 guaranteed to win. That's right. So you lose, so you 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:53.039 can lose, but you can also win. So so is 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:56.400 this an ongoing problem with copyright issues and music? You 0:05:56.440 --> 0:06:00.200 would think that everything is always based loosely on what 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:02.640 came before. Well, there is that, I mean, there are 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:06.960 there are elements that the substance of music is in 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:09.560 the public domain. I mean very simply. You know, you 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:13.400 take a string is a guitar straight and you touch 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:17.720 it halfway. You have an octave, You touch it in thirds, 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:23.159 you have a fifth, fourth, five, and then you you 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:25.160 keep going up there and you get what's called the 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:30.920 harmonic series. And out of that harmonic series you build chords, 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:36.920 you build melodies. The building blocks are pretty fundamental and 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:39.640 how you arrange those building blocks and do it in 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:43.680 a way to avoid stepping on somebody else's copyright is 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:47.080 the challenge. And in in the songwriting world, the the 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:51.280 the the adage is right a hit, get it rid 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:57.560 because the well you saw the Tom Petty song sounded 0:06:57.760 --> 0:06:59.960 so much so, and I bet you that he didn't 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:05.520 actually copy here. It was just simply that that's kind 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:07.920 of a progression that you and I mean that there 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:10.480 were some Australian guys that put together a YouTube video 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:14.040 where they took dozens of songs, all of which were 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:16.360 number one records, and all had exactly the same court 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:20.080 sequence because there's no copyright on the court sequence copyright 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:24.080 strictly speaking copyrights on melody and lyrics, so in the 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:27.160 case of blurred lines, they were going outside of the 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:29.200 bounds of that. And what you end up with is 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:36.440 is just aggressive proactive musicologists finding lawyers and lawyers that 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:39.120 they team up with that that can really muddy the 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:42.240 waters with all of it. What was the talking pacabell 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:45.280 Cannons and geek that everybody said that that a lot 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:51.400 of songs have loosely been based on It's a similar sequence. 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:58.720 I mean that's the pacabell But for example, you know, 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:12.200 these kind of sequences is not uncommon, so you get 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:23.280 that that sequence. So many songs, you know, like Journey, 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:26.160 you know, Don't Stop Believing is based on that. But 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:30.120 it's not a copyright herble thing. That substance of it 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:32.640 is just is truly in the public domain. It's how 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:35.439 you articulate it. It's what lyrics you put to it, 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:39.400 what you do melodically, and how much of a melody 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:43.400 is the same as something else. My special guest today 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:47.400 is Lawrence Duber. He played with Sir Paul McCartney and 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:51.000 Wings on tour in the late seventies and recorded too, 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:53.640 And what did you record with them? I'm back to 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:56.680 the Egg album. What's the big song from that? The 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:59.600 single that was contemporaneous with that was coming up, It 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:03.480 was good Night Tonight and then it was getting closer 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:07.280 and arrow through me that that period the late like 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:09.600 the Indian Summer of Wings as they call it. But 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:12.520 then after that coming because the last Wings number one 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:17.440 was coming up, which was live and that you're playing 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:19.800 with George Martin, You're doing a lot of session work. 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:23.920 What's it like when the call comes from McCartney, Hey, 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:27.000 I need a guitarist for the next tour. It didn't 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:29.840 quite come that way. I had been playing on a 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:32.640 TV show with David Essex, was big English pop star 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:34.160 at the time, and each week they would have a 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:37.520 different musical guest. So one week was Twiggy, which was 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:39.960 kind of fun. They did send in the clowns together 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:43.440 Um Ronnie Specter the next week. Then the next week 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:46.199 was Denny Lane, and Denny was one of the founding 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:51.000 member of Wings with Paul and Linda and Um had 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:54.079 originally been the lead singer with the Moody Blues and 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:56.679 We did Go Now, which was a big Moody Blues hit. 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:01.400 UM and Denny liked my playing and we kind of bonded. 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:04.319 And then a couple of months after I ran into 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:08.200 him at a London studio where Paul and Linda were 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:11.800 working with him, and then he introduced me, but there 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:14.760 was still I mean, this was kind of September October 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:17.360 of seventy seven. I got the call in April of 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:20.240 seventy eight, so it wasn't like an overnight thing, and 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:23.440 I was very entrenched as a studio musician. I had 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:26.840 that would been my ambition from the time I was thirteen. Now, 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:29.280 of course, if I knew then what I know now, 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:33.080 I would have oriented myself to be being a songwriters 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:36.200 a lot more money at that. But nonetheless, my my 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:38.160 goal was to play guitar and make a living doing 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:41.600 I wanted to be a professional guitar player, whatever that took, 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:45.040 being in top forty bands, playing in jazz bands. I 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:49.240 played in the National Uth Jazz Orchestra. I'd established myself 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:52.560 and I was working at abbey Road in the Iconic 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:55.920 studio to the Beatles Studio on a session and I 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:58.240 got a phone call. Now getting a phone call on 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:02.040 a session at abbey Road was usual. This is for 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:05.080 for the younger listeners. Back then. We didn't all have 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:09.559 cell phones. It was literally white courtesy phone. Lawrence Juber 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:12.880 coming in for you, and the phone was up in 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:15.679 the next of the control room. And there's a big 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:18.080 long staircase. And you never went up there as as 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:22.240 a musician, you know, you stayed down stayed downstairs on 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:24.559 the studio floor. But I had to go up. And 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:26.920 I've never seen the control room before. So go up 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:29.040 in the control room, go take the phone call, and 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:35.199 it's McCartney's office as MPL and the guy says, Jenny 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:37.400 wants to know if you can come and jam on Monday, 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:39.720 and oh, by the way, Paul and Linda will be there. 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:42.320 And as it happens, I was free, thank goodness. And 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:44.880 if you weren't, if I wasn't, I would have made myself. 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:49.480 And I kind of went into a slight panic because 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:51.360 I didn't really know any of the Wings stuff. You know, 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:53.320 at that time, I was into being a hot shot 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:56.600 studio player, and it wasn't. I was listening to pop records, 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:59.560 but you know, there weren't a lot of guitar solos 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:01.439 on the Wing records, and now that was the thing, 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:04.200 you know. I was much more into more of the 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:09.920 progressive FUSIONI Staff and Weather Report and UM returned to Forever, 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:12.680 and I was listening to like Chick Career and then 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:16.000 like Los Angeles guitar players like Larry Carton, Lee Written On, 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:19.319 you know, those kind of like jazz guy, fusion guy 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:23.320 studio players and UM. But so I brought some LPs 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:26.040 from my brother and listened over the weekend. But I 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:27.800 realized there was no way I was going to be 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:29.559 able to anticipate what we were going to do, and 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:31.560 as it turned out, we jammed on some chuck Berry 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:35.439 grooves and some reggae kind of field things, and they said, 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:38.040 what are you doing for the next few years, at 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:39.800 which point I had to think about it deeply for 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:44.160 a nano second, because you know, I'd established myself so 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:46.080 when I worked really hard and I was making a 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:49.840 decent living doing it, but I couldn't turn down the 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:53.360 opportunity to work with Paul McCartney. So you know, I said, well, 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:56.400 I guess I'm playing with you. I think the rule 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:58.400 of thumb is when Paul McCartney says, what are you 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:02.400 doing for the next few years, you tell me exactly. 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:07.200 So it was it was a big change now, but 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:11.120 personally it happened at a really crucial point in my 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:14.000 life because my father passed away a month earlier, so 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:18.640 it was a very kind of emotionally wrenching period. And 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:21.600 you know, to then step into the situation where not 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:24.040 only was I working for Paul, but he was kind 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:27.240 of an artistic mentor as well, and it really was. 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:30.240 It became an extension of my education because I had 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:34.120 studied London University got about your music degree in musicology 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:37.920 and music theory. I never really studied guitar formally, except 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:41.840 in high school. I had classical guitar lessons, but it 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:45.720 wasn't my ambition to be a classical guitar player. It 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:49.600 was simply a way to have the necessary grade level 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:52.960 in performance to be able to continue to study music theory, 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:56.000 because what intrigued me was the way that music was 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.880 put together, and watching you play various songs, it's clear 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:03.319 that you don't just pick up a guitar and strum. 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:07.280 All of the compositions I've seen you perform have been 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:13.400 constructed painstakingly with great a forethought, if that's even a word. 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:17.440 But it's clear that these aren't just oh, let me 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:21.240 run off a few riffs. You really spend time charting 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:23.840 these things out in great theme, figuring out how all 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.640 the parts work together. I mean, that's that's the challenge, 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:31.120 that's the technique. So McCartney's and Linda say to you, hey, 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:34.720 let's go on tour. What's actually not not straight away? No, 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:37.320 first thing that happens when we went up to Scotland 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:41.080 to his farm and spent a few weeks just working 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:45.280 through potential material for an album. So before we're even 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:49.720 rehearsing for the tour came away date way later because 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:52.400 he owed he had just signed with Columbia Records, had 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:56.040 been on Capitol for years. Signed with Columbia as a 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.280 signing bonus, he got a great deal on the Frank 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:04.320 Music CBS Songs Frank Music catalog, which included Greece, chorus 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:06.920 Line and Annie, all of which got made into movies 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:10.760 within a year of him acquiring those copyrights. Yeah, hit, 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:13.320 Paul was well on the way to becoming the largest 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:16.840 independent music publisher in the world. Because if Linda's father, 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:20.280 Lee represented a lot of the composers. Lee Eastman was 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:25.000 big time, big time music lawyer, and in fact, after 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:27.000 we had spent some time in Scotland and we shot 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:30.360 a video from an existing track, we then came to 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:33.160 New York, went out to Long Island, out to the 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:37.200 Hampton's and spent a few days getting to know chat 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:39.760 about the business end of it with with Lee Eastman, 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:43.520 which was pretty impressive, I have to say. And then 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:45.960 we went back to England and then went up to 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:49.920 Scotland again and started recording an album, which we continued 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:51.680 to do in Scotland, and then we went down to 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:54.920 a castle on the South coast of England, Limb Castle, 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:58.800 which like a thirteenth century with battlements and ghosts and 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:01.960 spiral stay cases. It was great. And then we went 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:04.640 into Abbey Road and did some recording there and ended 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:08.160 up actually in the basement of Paul's studio, Paul's office 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:12.400 in Soho Square, London, one Soho Square, which is like 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:16.280 a great addressed and we built a replica of the 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:18.680 control room of Abbey Road studio too so that we 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:21.600 could mix the album because we couldn't get into Abbey 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.320 Row because Kate Bush I think Cliff Richard and Kate 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:27.360 Busch were using it and we couldn't get the studio 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:29.840 that we wanted, so we just Paul created his own. 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:32.840 Let's talk a little bit about the business of music. 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:36.600 You mentioned you were happy earning a living as a 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:40.680 studio musician. Do those careers still exists to the same 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:44.240 degree they used to? They do to some extent, I mean, 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:47.080 you know, the union a for them used to have 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:50.520 a lot of cloud and in some areas it still does. 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:55.160 I mean in television movies as long as their studio movies. 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:58.479 This you know, and and it certainly can be rewarding, 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:02.920 but it's not as reliable a source of income as 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:07.240 it was even twenty years ago. I mean it really 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.359 the amount of that kind of work has diminished because 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:14.359 the technology has had an enormous impact. Whereas it used 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:16.680 to be that you'd have to put together an orchestra 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:18.760 to do a score, and now you can do it, 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:22.120 you know, in your bedroom basically, um with a laptop. 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:26.840 So it doesn't necessarily have the same dimension to it. 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:29.720 But then you know, that depends on the budget. But 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:34.000 but being a studio musician is was always really going 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:37.920 back to the twenties, was a viable way of making 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:40.639 a living, just not nearly as much as it was 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:43.560 not nearly as much today as it once was. Correct, 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:45.760 I mean, now really we had the money. Is is 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:48.639 in the songwriting and my daughter Elsie, for example, is 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:52.720 has becoming a successful songwriter, and I see how it 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:56.879 works for her in terms of and it's not just records. 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:00.520 It's not just records and television streaming is streaming is 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:04.119 not a great source of revenue for songwriters. For performers, 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:07.120 it's better the ratio for they find something of mine 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:12.960 gets played on serious example, Pandora. Hopefully Pandora will still 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:15.840 be around for a while if it gets played there. 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:20.800 I make seventeen times as much as a performer as 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:24.200 I would as the as the writer publishing. Does that 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:26.520 make any sense? That seems it makes sense if you're 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:30.000 the performer, but if you're the performer writer, I guess 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:33.240 there's a certain comma involved because performers never got and 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:36.399 still don't get money from terrestrial radio at all. It 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:40.800 was always looked at as promotional and not exactly exactly. 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:44.399 It's free promotion for your concerts, but that which is 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:47.040 why it used to be free promotion for your albums. 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:50.600 Well before that was free promotion for your live performances. 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:53.720 So we went from live performances as a big source 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:56.600 of income to albums album and now we're back to 0:18:56.640 --> 0:19:01.719 live performances to a largic live performances and T shirts, 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:05.600 merchandise um and and CDs have you know, dropped off 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:08.240 a lot, but you know, show merchandise in terms. I mean, 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:10.679 you've seen me at my shows, you know, with with 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:13.119 a stack of CDs and a line of people running 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:17.840 signatures and stuff. So that's that's a away And it's 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:19.919 great because I would get to meet the fans, but 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:24.080 I also get to hand over the work you know 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:28.280 the artistic work. But but the real money in songwriting 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:32.000 is in first of all, is in radio, airplay and 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:37.200 television and synchronization licenses. So a song, I mean, for example, 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:41.240 else co wrote Fireball for Pitball and that got used 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:45.240 big song got used on Dancing with the Stars. They 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:48.719 pay a synchronization license for the right to use it, 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:52.320 and then b m I collect performance royalties for it. 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:55.520 So there are revenue streams that develop out of that. UM. 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:00.280 Cell phone company might license it or CBS, you know 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:03.600 se Um. She also co wrote a song for Major 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:07.560 Laser called Powerful and CBS Television we're using it as 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:11.439 background for promos for upcoming shows, so they pay a 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:14.840 license fee for that that generates b m I UM. 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:19.440 So there are there are solid revenue streams that come 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:23.920 from that kind of activity. UM. And that's really where 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:28.280 the music publishes, you know, that's that's their lifeblood, is 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:31.199 that kind of activity, and it's worth their while to 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:35.320 have a roster of successful songwriters that who's publishing they administer, 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:39.159 and that you know, publishing is typically kind of a 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:42.800 a lot of pennies that add up to a substantial stream. 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:44.840 So so the thought of a couple of people getting 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:47.520 together in a garage, recording an album, going on tour 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:52.280 still a viable business model, and there are people that 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:55.560 are doing that, especially if they get good social media support, 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:58.800 who can actually make some decent money. And I hear 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:01.720 rumor of people that actually make money out of YouTube videos. 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:04.439 But but the reality of it is that YouTube doesn't 0:21:05.040 --> 0:21:10.880 really monetize as well as some other outlets. But it's 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:15.679 a it's a new frontier because digital just changed everything basically. Really, 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:20.119 that's that's fascinating. So so given the shift to digital 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:25.240 from analog recordings and the way you as a musician 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:29.920 have changed, um where you focus your time. What does 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:32.399 this mean for people who want to go into the 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:36.040 field of music. Is their emphasis completely different than it 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:39.280 once was to some extent, yes, I mean I think 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:43.680 it's it's actually broadened the field. I mean, thirty years ago, 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:46.120 there were no video game that's a source of revenue 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:50.080 from I've written for video I've written for Blizzard Entertainment, Activision, Blizzard. 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:52.880 I did music for Diablo three, which is a big 0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:57.159 game that was a giant game, and that's something that 0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:00.600 didn't exist in a previous generation. As a man named 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:05.119 Tom Tommy Tallarico, who is the most successful of all 0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:07.840 the video game composers, going back to like Super Mario 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:11.800 Brothers kind of like you know, those very like Nintendo games. 0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:14.760 That's a new end of the business. Let's talk a 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:18.880 little bit about some of the guitarists you mentioned. You 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:24.000 mentioned a few names earlier. Remind me of who you 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:27.240 referred to out in l A. Well, I mean the 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:29.200 number one on the list I think for everybody is 0:22:29.280 --> 0:22:32.280 Jango Reinhart. Oh well, yeah, but the guys in l 0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:34.800 A would be like Larry Carlton and Lee Writtener, you 0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:37.240 know who. And that started off the studio players. There 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:40.480 was a pass of being a studio player in l A. 0:22:40.720 --> 0:22:44.560 That was followed by like Bonnie Castle, um, and and 0:22:44.680 --> 0:22:48.520 players like that who were studio guys but also were 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:52.240 jazz players so they could do and roll. They could, 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:55.800 but they preferred the jazz. I mean Bonnie Castle, for example, 0:22:55.880 --> 0:22:59.080 was actually a mentor to Phil Specter really and played 0:22:59.160 --> 0:23:02.480 on a number of the records. And you know, like, um, 0:23:02.560 --> 0:23:04.800 but when you go back and you listen to some 0:23:04.840 --> 0:23:07.399 of those, especially like the fifties movie score, some of 0:23:07.440 --> 0:23:09.840 the Man Seni stuff, and you're here, like some really 0:23:10.160 --> 0:23:13.600 kind of like jazz guy. Well, I'm not tuned for 0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:16.800 the man seen you right now, but um, but some 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:19.000 but some of the jazz guy you know, like especially 0:23:19.040 --> 0:23:21.160 at Barney Kessele, who was a big hero of mine. 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:31.760 And you mentioned the jangle. Yeah, the Belgian Gypsy who 0:23:31.800 --> 0:23:35.600 I think everybody kind of looks to us being probably 0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:38.840 the greatest guitarist of all time. Really certainly the father 0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:43.680 of that style of on the European side, yes, but 0:23:43.680 --> 0:23:48.480 but the father of American jazz guitar was Eddie Lang. Um. 0:23:49.800 --> 0:23:53.840 And then how does he differ from Reinhardt. Well, Eddie 0:23:53.920 --> 0:23:57.920 lang was of Italian descent, and you know he worked 0:23:57.920 --> 0:24:00.199 with Bing Crosby. I mean he was being Crossby's right 0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:04.159 hand man, so different stylistic area. I mean, Django was 0:24:04.240 --> 0:24:09.120 very much in the Gypsy chairs kind of It's kind 0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:11.280 of like there's that rhythm is what they called the 0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:14.480 pump pump, and it kind of just sits in the 0:24:14.520 --> 0:24:18.320 particular kind of groove. Um, Eddie Lange was was a 0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:20.560 very versatile guitar player. I did a lot of records 0:24:20.560 --> 0:24:25.400 with Joe Anuti around thirty but even prior to that, 0:24:25.440 --> 0:24:30.200 I mean the first Bona fide recorded blues guitar solo 0:24:31.040 --> 0:24:36.679 was Lonnie Johnson recorded a piece called hight Glide in 0:24:37.800 --> 0:24:41.240 seven and that has all the you know, all those 0:24:41.320 --> 0:24:54.920 kind of with him and a piano player, but all 0:24:54.920 --> 0:24:59.440 those bent notes and vibrato and improvised blues solos. That's 0:24:59.480 --> 0:25:01.679 that was really the beginning of it, because the guitar 0:25:01.720 --> 0:25:04.600 didn't really kind of have make a big mark in 0:25:04.640 --> 0:25:08.400 the recording industry until the mid mid to late twenties. 0:25:09.000 --> 0:25:12.160 Let's talk about some of your contemporaries, or let's let's 0:25:12.720 --> 0:25:16.080 I'll work my way, um historically, let's talk about Less 0:25:16.119 --> 0:25:18.840 Paul a little bit. Oh yeah, what what is my 0:25:18.960 --> 0:25:22.720 great regret in life? As a grad students, I lived 0:25:22.720 --> 0:25:26.680 on seventeenth and third, around the corner from Fat Tuesdays, 0:25:26.720 --> 0:25:29.800 where he played every week, and I kept saying to myself, Oh, 0:25:29.840 --> 0:25:32.480 I have to go see less Ball. And five years later, 0:25:33.119 --> 0:25:36.159 well then he was led over to Iridium. M I 0:25:36.240 --> 0:25:39.760 missed the window closed before. Yeah. I actually went to 0:25:39.760 --> 0:25:42.000 play with him at Iridium on a Monday, a very 0:25:42.080 --> 0:25:45.479 rainy Monday night after a huge northeaster, and he couldn't 0:25:45.480 --> 0:25:47.359 get there, He couldn't get out of his house because 0:25:47.400 --> 0:25:50.639 the bridge had been washed washed over. But I played 0:25:50.640 --> 0:25:52.760 with his band. I played with the Less Paul band. 0:25:52.840 --> 0:25:54.520 What I never got to actually play with Less. What 0:25:54.560 --> 0:25:58.120 do you think of him as a guitarist? Fabulous, one 0:25:58.160 --> 0:26:01.400 of the great jazz guitar play before it became kind 0:26:01.400 --> 0:26:04.760 of a pop star with with Mary Ford and and 0:26:04.800 --> 0:26:07.840 of course not not just a great jazz player, but 0:26:07.920 --> 0:26:12.560 also really the father of the modern recording technology. I mean, 0:26:13.000 --> 0:26:15.720 you know, the modern studio, modern recording studio. Pretty much 0:26:16.840 --> 0:26:19.919 Les Paul is to the recording studio what Thomas Edison 0:26:20.000 --> 0:26:23.040 was to the lightbulb, and not only to the recording studio, 0:26:23.400 --> 0:26:27.199 but also to the electric guitar. Song electric guitar to 0:26:27.280 --> 0:26:29.919 some degree. But he didn't invent the electric guitar, but 0:26:30.040 --> 0:26:33.040 he did invent a lot of things like multitrack recording. 0:26:33.400 --> 0:26:36.600 So you you recorded a version of Peter Towns It's 0:26:36.760 --> 0:26:40.960 you did a few Who songs, which I believe you 0:26:41.359 --> 0:26:44.919 once said Towns had said was impossible to do on guitar. 0:26:46.000 --> 0:26:49.399 He didn't say that to me. He was amazed that 0:26:49.440 --> 0:26:51.720 I could do it on guitar. I mean, you know, 0:26:51.760 --> 0:26:57.800 I do it in dad gad tuning, which is one 0:26:57.840 --> 0:27:03.000 of the alter tunings that I use the intro, which 0:27:03.080 --> 0:27:09.520 is a synthesizer like a sequence synthesizer thing, which is 0:27:09.520 --> 0:27:11.800 why he thought it could be done on a guitar. 0:27:18.240 --> 0:27:21.600 So you know, it's like that, and it's you. You 0:27:21.680 --> 0:27:24.359 have to be you have to figure it out, and 0:27:24.440 --> 0:27:27.159 you can't do it in standard tuning. And then it 0:27:27.240 --> 0:27:34.200 kind of breaks into I don't do Roger Daughters scream. 0:27:34.240 --> 0:27:36.040 What do you think of towns It as a writer 0:27:36.119 --> 0:27:38.240 and a guitar. Oh, it's fabulous. I mean one of 0:27:38.280 --> 0:27:41.640 the great great rock is what makes him so good 0:27:42.920 --> 0:27:49.160 to pull a line from? That's right, it's just that 0:27:50.240 --> 0:27:53.720 the combination of talent and clearly there's a genetic component 0:27:53.760 --> 0:28:00.760 because his dad was a musician. There's a combination of talent, persistence, experience. 0:28:02.080 --> 0:28:07.159 You know, you can't do what he does without having 0:28:07.200 --> 0:28:12.960 that that intensity of dedication. It's not easy to maintain 0:28:13.480 --> 0:28:17.000 a career, to to start a career in the music business, 0:28:17.000 --> 0:28:20.400 and then to maintain it for thirty or forty years. Yeah, 0:28:20.480 --> 0:28:22.520 I mean, but look at and look at McCartney. I mean, 0:28:22.520 --> 0:28:25.439 it's still going out and doing tree. Yeah, it's amazing. 0:28:25.760 --> 0:28:29.760 That's um. What about Mark Knopfler, who I find to 0:28:29.800 --> 0:28:32.359 be fast, great player, really interesting because he you know, 0:28:32.359 --> 0:28:35.240 he plays fingerstyle, yes, and he's a lefty, but he 0:28:35.240 --> 0:28:38.680 plays right handed. There's a few a few guitar players 0:28:38.960 --> 0:28:41.400 who are lefties, who are leftist who play right does 0:28:41.440 --> 0:28:43.440 that well? We know Hendrix used to play in a 0:28:43.440 --> 0:28:46.720 handful of other guys used to play actually lefty. What 0:28:46.840 --> 0:28:49.280 does it do if you're a lefty playing right? He 0:28:49.360 --> 0:28:51.480 does it give you an advantage with your left hand? 0:28:51.600 --> 0:28:53.520 You know it? That's you do? You have to ask 0:28:53.560 --> 0:29:00.720 a neurologist. Um, I mean, it's remarkable to me what 0:29:00.720 --> 0:29:02.640 what I can do with my left hand, and yet 0:29:02.680 --> 0:29:06.000 if I pick up a pen, it's it's like hopeless, 0:29:06.080 --> 0:29:11.120 you know. But but but the fact is that both 0:29:11.160 --> 0:29:14.560 hands have to be especially with fingerstyle, they really have 0:29:14.640 --> 0:29:17.760 to be equally quiet, and the left hand is actually 0:29:17.760 --> 0:29:20.840 doing more, but the left hand corresponds to the right brain. 0:29:21.600 --> 0:29:25.720 So it's kind of there's a creative flow that happens. 0:29:25.880 --> 0:29:29.480 Makes sense, your most cock cockingen, Oh, you're amost great. 0:29:30.120 --> 0:29:33.560 I saw him at a tiny pub in college and 0:29:33.600 --> 0:29:36.880 he was just mesmerized. You know, he's great. Um, I 0:29:37.000 --> 0:29:41.280 taught he has a camp in Pomeroy, Ohio called fur 0:29:41.360 --> 0:29:46.240 Piece Ranch, and I taught there and got to hang 0:29:46.280 --> 0:29:49.240 with him, and you know, and like we're in breakfast 0:29:49.240 --> 0:29:51.600 one morning, yourman pulls out his guitar and starts singing 0:29:51.640 --> 0:29:53.760 songs for us, and it's so cool. Just out a 0:29:53.840 --> 0:29:58.200 left field. Yeah, just really a very talented individual. I 0:29:58.240 --> 0:30:00.600 was never a giant hot tune a fan, but I 0:30:00.640 --> 0:30:04.479 always thought he was a fascinating musician. I liked what 0:30:04.520 --> 0:30:08.719 he did. An interesting point of background is that he 0:30:08.920 --> 0:30:13.400 studied from the DC area originally and studied with Sophocles Papas, 0:30:13.440 --> 0:30:19.600 who was one of Segovia's proteges. Interesting, I have a 0:30:19.680 --> 0:30:21.720 handful of guitarists they have to run. I have to 0:30:21.760 --> 0:30:26.160 ask you about Eric Clapton. Yeah, well, you know, what 0:30:26.200 --> 0:30:30.200 can you say The Blues Breaker's album with Joe male 0:30:30.960 --> 0:30:38.240 Um hide Away, You know, I mean that that was 0:30:39.760 --> 0:30:43.120 an epiphany for me hearing that for the first time. 0:30:43.800 --> 0:30:47.720 And then Frank Zappa talk about Zappa that much brilliant 0:30:47.720 --> 0:30:51.480 guitarists and an even more brilliant composer, one of the greats. 0:30:52.320 --> 0:30:55.520 But you know, just so eccentric, you kind of you 0:30:55.720 --> 0:31:01.840 don't even realized just how how dense and what kind 0:31:01.840 --> 0:31:06.360 of what kind of granular detail is on it? Going 0:31:06.360 --> 0:31:07.840 on his music. I used to see him a lot 0:31:07.840 --> 0:31:09.719 in London when he I saw him at the Albert 0:31:09.720 --> 0:31:12.520 Hall with Don Preston playing the huge organ there. That 0:31:12.600 --> 0:31:15.880 was really cool. What's fascinating is his son Dweezel, who's 0:31:15.920 --> 0:31:19.560 also a good guitarist, pulls out each year these kids 0:31:19.600 --> 0:31:23.280 out of Berkeley College and Music and they're nineteen and 0:31:23.320 --> 0:31:27.000 twenty years old and they tour playing Zappa's music and 0:31:27.040 --> 0:31:31.400 they're amazing. But there's a lesson in estate planning because 0:31:31.440 --> 0:31:34.120 you know that there's a conflict within the Zappa family 0:31:34.680 --> 0:31:39.360 and Dweezel can't promoted a Zappa plays Zappa but you 0:31:39.400 --> 0:31:43.360 know this litigation ongoing, and yeah, yeah, you gotta, you 0:31:43.440 --> 0:31:46.520 gotta get stuff like that straight. To say the least, 0:31:46.920 --> 0:31:49.800 we have been speaking with Lawrence Jubber. I'll be sure 0:31:49.840 --> 0:31:53.080 and check out my daily column on Bloomberg View dot com. 0:31:53.680 --> 0:31:56.120 You can follow me on Twitter at rid Halts. We 0:31:56.200 --> 0:32:00.240 love your comments, feedback and suggestions right to us at 0:32:00.720 --> 0:32:04.320 m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net. I'm Barry Ridholtz. 0:32:04.320 --> 0:32:23.920 You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. Welcome 0:32:23.960 --> 0:32:26.760 to the podcast, Lawrence. Thank you so much for doing 0:32:26.760 --> 0:32:31.560 this and bringing your acts and playing a little bit um. 0:32:31.760 --> 0:32:35.760 We were just saying, you develop an intuitive sense of 0:32:35.760 --> 0:32:40.280 of timing. You can you can tell when you've done 0:32:40.280 --> 0:32:42.720 a ninety minutes show, you have a pretty good sense 0:32:42.800 --> 0:32:47.240 of how long the show just ninety minutes, sixty minutes, 0:32:47.320 --> 0:32:51.960 forty five, kind of you just you know how many tunes. Well, 0:32:52.000 --> 0:32:55.280 it's partially a number of tunes, but also just you 0:32:55.360 --> 0:32:58.800 kind of just feel it, you know, I mean, And 0:32:58.880 --> 0:33:01.560 that's for me, that's always been part of the professionalism 0:33:01.560 --> 0:33:03.920 of it is to you know, the contract says you 0:33:03.920 --> 0:33:06.120 play for ninety minutes. I play for ninety minutes and 0:33:06.120 --> 0:33:09.240 then maybe do an encore after that. But but it's 0:33:09.280 --> 0:33:14.360 always important to me to deliver. And my philosophy was 0:33:14.400 --> 0:33:19.040 always make myself indispensable, you know, which means be professional, 0:33:19.120 --> 0:33:22.880 be on time, be in tune with the right instruments. 0:33:23.200 --> 0:33:26.360 And and then that translated once I got onto the 0:33:26.400 --> 0:33:30.040 stage where I was being the artist to be able 0:33:30.120 --> 0:33:33.920 to deliver and be entertaining and engage an audience and 0:33:33.960 --> 0:33:36.480 all of those things. So let's let's talk about engaging 0:33:36.480 --> 0:33:41.800 an audience. I have seen you sometimes deliver lots of 0:33:41.880 --> 0:33:46.080 stage pattern, lots of backstory, not quite full on John 0:33:46.160 --> 0:33:50.600 Pizreeli anecdotes. But I can do anecdotes at times. But 0:33:50.720 --> 0:33:52.560 then there are other times I've seen you were your 0:33:52.600 --> 0:33:55.400 all business and I'm playing music and nothing's getting in 0:33:55.480 --> 0:33:58.400 my way, especially when I'm I'm kind of I mean, 0:33:58.440 --> 0:34:00.360 I've been on the road now for over a week, 0:34:01.280 --> 0:34:05.959 and the more gigs I do, the more my chops 0:34:06.000 --> 0:34:08.960 get kind of you know, like get so you have 0:34:09.000 --> 0:34:11.359 to limber up. You you can have you can come 0:34:11.400 --> 0:34:13.800 off the off the road and be a little rusty 0:34:13.840 --> 0:34:18.560 when you're starting. Um, yeah, a little um. I mean 0:34:18.719 --> 0:34:22.400 it's it. And but it changes from one gig to 0:34:22.440 --> 0:34:25.680 the next. I mean certain shows, depending on the environment, 0:34:25.719 --> 0:34:29.360 I might be more improvisational or lean more towards the 0:34:29.400 --> 0:34:33.960 set pieces. Um, sometimes it'll just feel really loose and 0:34:33.960 --> 0:34:36.600 I'll stretch things out. It's like when I'm playing Little Wing, 0:34:36.640 --> 0:34:41.200 for example, that I and you destroy that song, but 0:34:41.280 --> 0:34:44.080 I leave a space for myself where it's completely improvised. 0:34:44.719 --> 0:34:47.040 You know, I'm playing over the changes. But but but 0:34:47.120 --> 0:34:48.879 I never play it the same way twice. In fact, 0:34:48.880 --> 0:34:51.160 I never try not to play anything exactly at the 0:34:51.160 --> 0:34:52.719 same time. That was the question I was going to 0:34:52.840 --> 0:34:55.600 ask you, because there are certain songs, especially when you're 0:34:55.640 --> 0:35:00.439 doing covers um that they sound pretty similar from song 0:35:00.520 --> 0:35:03.680 to song, and then there are other versions where it's like, 0:35:03.800 --> 0:35:06.800 I didn't never heard that before, Where did that come from? 0:35:07.120 --> 0:35:10.360 Just it's it's the moment, it's being in the musical moment, 0:35:11.440 --> 0:35:13.560 you know, and it's it's kind of I have to 0:35:13.560 --> 0:35:16.000 be very conscious of what I'm doing and where I am, 0:35:16.040 --> 0:35:21.880 but but also allow myself to get to seek transcendence. Okay, 0:35:21.960 --> 0:35:25.560 you know, how does one seek transcendence by not interfering? 0:35:26.280 --> 0:35:30.360 Because where you go what you do is more complex 0:35:30.719 --> 0:35:34.600 than most Because if somebody is just playing a single 0:35:35.760 --> 0:35:39.759 lead and they're there, I don't care how fast or 0:35:39.760 --> 0:35:41.640 slow they're playing, though it's it could be Edi van 0:35:41.680 --> 0:35:46.600 Hallen or whoever. They're thinking about the sequence of those 0:35:46.640 --> 0:35:49.839 notes and what they're playing. You're playing nine things at 0:35:49.840 --> 0:35:54.000 once because it's vertical rather than that's exactly what I'm saying. 0:35:54.080 --> 0:35:57.600 It's one moment to the next. So when when you're playing, 0:35:57.920 --> 0:36:00.839 you're not thinking in terms of no, no, no, you're 0:36:00.880 --> 0:36:05.000 thinking in terms of these six chord, these six strings 0:36:05.000 --> 0:36:07.880 at once and one of my playing and there's a 0:36:07.920 --> 0:36:10.480 lot of things going on when I'm working stuff out, yes, 0:36:10.560 --> 0:36:14.680 but in performance I'm really trying to tell a story. 0:36:14.960 --> 0:36:17.440 The muscle memory just takes off. So the muscle memory 0:36:17.480 --> 0:36:19.680 is in there the and that's really the stuff that 0:36:19.719 --> 0:36:22.960 gets warmed up during the course of the tour is 0:36:23.000 --> 0:36:27.680 that I just become more finely tuned in the narrative 0:36:27.760 --> 0:36:30.960 aspect of it, which then allows me to be the 0:36:31.080 --> 0:36:35.359 freedom to to do um. You know, in music, there's 0:36:35.480 --> 0:36:38.640 a term called rubato, which which means that, you know, 0:36:38.719 --> 0:36:40.400 you can kind of play around with the tempo a 0:36:40.440 --> 0:36:46.160 little bit, but the Italian means to rob and like 0:36:46.760 --> 0:36:49.799 strict rubato, you don't actually slow anything down. It's just 0:36:49.840 --> 0:36:52.160 if you slow down in part of the bar, you 0:36:52.160 --> 0:36:55.120 you speed up, and the rest of the always stay 0:36:55.560 --> 0:36:59.120 you always stay in the pocket. And that stuff that 0:36:59.200 --> 0:37:04.239 I find myself elf being more casual about as a 0:37:04.280 --> 0:37:07.920 tour progressive, which makes it interesting because then it changes 0:37:08.360 --> 0:37:11.680 the texture a little bit. Who is recognizing that when 0:37:11.719 --> 0:37:15.799 you're doing it? I am now a few I mean 0:37:15.800 --> 0:37:18.319 the musicians were. There was a concert pianist in the 0:37:18.360 --> 0:37:22.360 audience last night show. Who who recognize such that that 0:37:22.440 --> 0:37:25.480 kind of you have a conversation afterwards, I noticed you, 0:37:26.160 --> 0:37:30.120 Yeah we did, And that's just But but you know, 0:37:30.160 --> 0:37:33.000 the the average Aorgiance member just is there to be entertained. 0:37:33.040 --> 0:37:36.000 They're not necessarily going to pass things like that. They're 0:37:36.040 --> 0:37:40.239 going to just enjoy the concert. So what sort of 0:37:40.280 --> 0:37:44.000 stuff do you enjoy playing? What is entertaining for you 0:37:44.160 --> 0:37:48.719 when you're out on tour? Oh? I particularly like it 0:37:48.760 --> 0:37:51.000 when I can actually create that space to be able 0:37:51.000 --> 0:37:54.080 to be improvisational. So it doesn't matter what the song is. 0:37:54.160 --> 0:37:57.480 The song is just the backdrop for you. That's the 0:37:57.520 --> 0:38:00.920 canvas for you to paint the bon Yeah, and sometimes 0:38:01.000 --> 0:38:03.640 it's it's you know, paint by not paint by numbers 0:38:03.680 --> 0:38:06.399 in the sense of just being by rote. But but 0:38:06.480 --> 0:38:10.320 you know, I there are areas to fill in the color, 0:38:10.480 --> 0:38:13.640 but other places where it will just kind of take 0:38:13.680 --> 0:38:17.880 off into its own, its own kind of thing. Do 0:38:18.320 --> 0:38:21.719 you when you're being transcendent it works itself out? Do 0:38:21.760 --> 0:38:24.440 you ever paint yourself into a corner totally and think 0:38:24.480 --> 0:38:25.719 how am I going to get out of that? But 0:38:25.800 --> 0:38:27.839 that's that's the fum pie is getting out of it. 0:38:28.080 --> 0:38:31.000 In live in real time. There's no no when you're 0:38:31.000 --> 0:38:33.000 in front of an audience, is no, hey, let's re 0:38:33.160 --> 0:38:35.960 record this. I messed up in Medina. Rewind that I 0:38:36.000 --> 0:38:40.040 screwed up. It's I have to figure out all my 0:38:40.080 --> 0:38:42.000 fingers will figure out a way. But you know, but 0:38:42.000 --> 0:38:45.000 but I have the the musical knowledge. I have the 0:38:45.120 --> 0:38:49.640 understanding that I know where I'm going, and it's not 0:38:49.719 --> 0:38:51.839 where you've been. You know, if you stop and think 0:38:51.880 --> 0:38:54.839 about what you just did, you don't get to the destination. 0:38:55.040 --> 0:38:59.200 And it's all about destination from one move to the next. 0:38:59.280 --> 0:39:02.520 It's where does it go next? What's the resolution of 0:39:02.520 --> 0:39:08.200 this harmony? What's the evolution of this fingering? And you know, 0:39:08.280 --> 0:39:12.160 I mean there could be a certain amount of stress 0:39:12.680 --> 0:39:17.040 involved if it's like, oh, okay, you know. But sometimes 0:39:17.080 --> 0:39:19.400 I mean, you know, I'll like, you know, the stage 0:39:19.480 --> 0:39:21.480 lights will kind of blind me for a second and 0:39:21.560 --> 0:39:23.880 I'll land on the wrong frat. But you know, you 0:39:23.960 --> 0:39:26.640 slide up one or you slide back one, and nobody 0:39:26.680 --> 0:39:29.279 really picks it up, no, because it ends up just 0:39:29.320 --> 0:39:31.200 becoming part of the texture. And then it was like, oh, 0:39:31.239 --> 0:39:34.239 I'll do that again because it sounded cool. You have 0:39:34.320 --> 0:39:37.560 a lot of guitarists and a lot of musicians as fans. 0:39:38.120 --> 0:39:40.840 Does that affect the way you play? Are you thinking 0:39:40.880 --> 0:39:44.400 about that? Hey, if I do this, this subgroup of 0:39:44.440 --> 0:39:47.319 fans are going to appreciate it, or you're you're more 0:39:47.320 --> 0:39:50.640 in the moment and more in the moment people, Although 0:39:50.680 --> 0:39:53.759 it might change if it's a jazz audience. You know, 0:39:53.800 --> 0:39:56.560 if I'm playing with my trio, for example, then I'll 0:39:56.600 --> 0:40:00.439 be less of the solo self sufficiency thing a much 0:40:00.480 --> 0:40:02.719 more into having a bass player there that's going to 0:40:02.840 --> 0:40:07.239 lay down something that I can then really fly over 0:40:07.280 --> 0:40:09.920 the top. And then you know, there's a little bit 0:40:09.960 --> 0:40:13.040 of kind of strutting one stuff for the jazz jury 0:40:13.080 --> 0:40:16.520 as we refer to it. How often are you out 0:40:16.560 --> 0:40:20.239 with the trio versus not that often? I mean if 0:40:20.239 --> 0:40:22.879 a festival thing comes up. Or last December we did 0:40:22.880 --> 0:40:25.600 a Christmas tour for my Christmas album because we recorded 0:40:25.640 --> 0:40:29.880 it that way the previous Christmas bas bas and upright 0:40:29.920 --> 0:40:32.680 bass and drums like you know, just light drums. But 0:40:32.719 --> 0:40:34.520 then you know, second set, I had strapped on an 0:40:34.520 --> 0:40:39.040 electric guitar and we turned into a a um you'll 0:40:39.080 --> 0:40:42.239 tide jam band. Shall we say? Who are some of 0:40:42.280 --> 0:40:47.560 the other musicians that you have been foundational to your development. Well, 0:40:47.640 --> 0:40:50.280 one one musician that was very helpful to me was 0:40:50.280 --> 0:40:53.680 was I Isaacs, who was an English studio guitar player 0:40:54.280 --> 0:40:59.600 for a period, played with with Stephan Grappelli, who's Jenga 0:40:59.680 --> 0:41:03.160 Ryan's violinist, and I was just I think he was 0:41:03.200 --> 0:41:06.480 the one who kind of said, look, you've've got all 0:41:06.480 --> 0:41:10.920 the technique, you just need to learn how to use it. Um. 0:41:11.320 --> 0:41:13.279 And then there was a man named Tony Romano who 0:41:13.360 --> 0:41:18.719 was we talked about Eddie lang and Tony was was 0:41:19.040 --> 0:41:21.279 a singer and a guitar player that traveled with Bob 0:41:21.320 --> 0:41:25.400 Hope and Francis Langford in the USO UM and you 0:41:25.440 --> 0:41:27.080 typically it would just be the three of us and 0:41:27.280 --> 0:41:29.719 three of them and then with Jerry Cologna, the comedian, 0:41:29.800 --> 0:41:31.759 and maybe some dances that would go and do all 0:41:31.800 --> 0:41:34.080 the U s O tours during World War Two. And 0:41:34.200 --> 0:41:39.120 Tony was I mean, the best lesson I ever got 0:41:39.400 --> 0:41:43.480 was with him saying, play big notes. What does that mean? What? What? 0:41:43.600 --> 0:41:47.120 Play big notes and notes that mean something? You know, 0:41:47.160 --> 0:41:48.960 because you can play a whole flurry of notes, but 0:41:49.000 --> 0:41:53.560 they don't necessarily have any kind of substance to them, 0:41:53.640 --> 0:41:56.080 no importance to them. But you know, you want to 0:41:56.200 --> 0:42:02.560 play one note and you put some expression into it 0:42:05.200 --> 0:42:08.960 and it it then has all this dimension to it. 0:42:09.080 --> 0:42:12.480 So I dimensional note, not just a one dimensional note, 0:42:12.480 --> 0:42:16.080 but something you know. I'm going to get very um 0:42:16.280 --> 0:42:19.759 local and retro on you. As a kid, there was 0:42:19.800 --> 0:42:22.719 a local band called the Good Rats. I don't know 0:42:22.760 --> 0:42:24.799 if you know them, I have heard of them, and 0:42:24.840 --> 0:42:28.279 they had a song called Tasty. And you what you've 0:42:28.320 --> 0:42:31.000 just mentioned with big notes is a line from one 0:42:31.040 --> 0:42:34.160 of their songs. Speed ain't nothing without class. You have 0:42:34.239 --> 0:42:37.719 to play tasty. And it's very much along that those 0:42:37.760 --> 0:42:40.919 lines of the notes have to matter. It doesn't matter, 0:42:41.200 --> 0:42:43.239 you know. I mean you can play fast and then 0:42:43.280 --> 0:42:45.640 you know there's value. And you've seen me in concert. 0:42:45.640 --> 0:42:48.440 I mean there's value in playing you know, those those 0:42:48.760 --> 0:42:51.680 that kind of flourishes, you know, those that that kind 0:42:51.719 --> 0:42:54.279 of thing. But but it needs it needs to be 0:42:54.320 --> 0:42:59.400 balanced with expression. So me anyway, One of the questions 0:42:59.440 --> 0:43:01.920 I get from listeners all the time is ask your 0:43:01.960 --> 0:43:05.160 guests about books. What sort of stuff do you read? 0:43:05.239 --> 0:43:08.200 You're you're traveling a lot, a lot of airplane stuff. 0:43:08.239 --> 0:43:10.359 I mean, I just load up my kindle with you know, 0:43:10.560 --> 0:43:17.120 kind of adventure are some extent. Recently, I've been reading 0:43:17.560 --> 0:43:21.160 reading some musicology. David Burns had an interesting book out 0:43:21.200 --> 0:43:27.560 not too long ago, Um of the talking heads to 0:43:27.600 --> 0:43:31.120 be called musicology or something like. I'm into guitar ology, 0:43:32.760 --> 0:43:34.880 where guitar meets musicology. I've been doing a lot of 0:43:34.880 --> 0:43:38.600 study of nineteenth century guitar music, and partially because of 0:43:38.600 --> 0:43:42.719 my association with Martin guitars. Um and I have a 0:43:42.760 --> 0:43:45.920 talk that I give guitar Mania to Beatlemania, which is 0:43:45.960 --> 0:43:48.920 a slide show history of the guitar. And I can 0:43:48.960 --> 0:43:54.560 play some examples of period pieces. And I have an 0:43:54.560 --> 0:43:58.160 eighteen ninety three Martin Parlor guitar that works really nicely 0:43:58.239 --> 0:44:01.520 for stuff. So player an example of I have to 0:44:01.560 --> 0:44:06.480 retune hand. I was in dad gat tuning for the 0:44:06.520 --> 0:44:12.840 whole time. No, just earlier on. Let me go a 0:44:12.920 --> 0:44:21.160 quick example here, Um, I just finished. So you're not 0:44:21.239 --> 0:44:23.600 even looking at I have a tune in here. Yeah, 0:44:23.600 --> 0:44:25.839 but you are you paying attention to it doing doing 0:44:25.840 --> 0:44:30.160 it by year. But I'm listening to because I'm watching 0:44:30.200 --> 0:44:32.560 you not look at that as your tune. But it's 0:44:32.600 --> 0:44:53.919 tucked back here. M h okay, locked in. So there 0:44:54.000 --> 0:44:57.880 was an Italian named len Yanni who was a contemporary 0:44:57.920 --> 0:45:00.120 of Paganini. In fact, there's thought that the two have 0:45:00.160 --> 0:45:03.480 them played together, and he was known as the Paganini 0:45:03.520 --> 0:45:06.680 of the guitar. It would be like eighteen twenties and 0:45:07.680 --> 0:45:11.040 by any modern standards, he was a shredder and he's 0:45:11.040 --> 0:45:37.880 a little bit of Lenani's. Then um Um there was 0:45:38.320 --> 0:45:40.400 an American guitar player. So what happened was that there 0:45:40.480 --> 0:45:43.480 was this kind of what we call classical guitar now 0:45:43.600 --> 0:45:47.719 it's really Spanish classical guitars filtered through Segovia. But there 0:45:47.760 --> 0:45:54.120 were a lot of um Central Northern European guitar players 0:45:54.520 --> 0:45:59.680 in the early nineteenth century who were extremely influential professional 0:45:59.680 --> 0:46:02.480 guitar players. I mean, the only major difference between what 0:46:02.520 --> 0:46:04.359 they did and what we do now is they had 0:46:04.360 --> 0:46:10.040 no recording industry there and the they were very influential 0:46:10.160 --> 0:46:14.560 on the growth of the American classical guitar And in 0:46:14.600 --> 0:46:17.040 the second half of the nineteenth century there was a 0:46:17.080 --> 0:46:20.920 whole school of guitar music in America, which mostly we 0:46:21.000 --> 0:46:24.160 called parlor guitar music, and that ties in with the 0:46:24.239 --> 0:46:27.120 history of Martin guitars, which I know my signature model 0:46:27.120 --> 0:46:31.360 as a Martin Um. Here's an example. Up Martin's agent 0:46:31.480 --> 0:46:35.000 in New York in the middle of the century was 0:46:35.239 --> 0:46:39.160 a manager, Charles de jannon Um and he this is 0:46:39.360 --> 0:46:41.680 a little bit of a Massurka that he published and 0:46:41.800 --> 0:46:47.080 very typically marches Masurka's Waltz is Um published in eighty 0:47:05.239 --> 0:47:08.279 You know that kind of thing played in the parlor. Yeah, 0:47:08.280 --> 0:47:11.319 but a Mazurka, the you know, this kind of little 0:47:11.320 --> 0:47:14.880 bouncy thing is characteristic of the masurk um. So how 0:47:14.920 --> 0:47:17.239 does that go from from what you played earlier to 0:47:17.360 --> 0:47:23.680 this to how does that eventually translate to modern American 0:47:23.719 --> 0:47:27.280 classical and then blues in the Beatles. Well, what happened 0:47:27.640 --> 0:47:31.600 really was the in the classical area, and there were 0:47:31.600 --> 0:47:33.720 by the turn of the century there were two major 0:47:34.080 --> 0:47:36.920 guitar players. It was William Foden, known as the Wizard 0:47:36.920 --> 0:47:39.120 of the Guitar, and then there was a woman named 0:47:39.200 --> 0:47:41.960 verd orch At Bickford who and they were kind of 0:47:42.000 --> 0:47:44.759 polar opposites. He was very technical, he was famous for 0:47:44.840 --> 0:47:49.480 his incredible tremolo technique, and she was very artistic and 0:47:49.640 --> 0:47:52.920 very very much in almost like a precursor of the 0:47:53.000 --> 0:47:55.759 New Age kind of thing. She was actually an astrologer, 0:47:56.160 --> 0:47:58.879 as was her husband too. And then there was something 0:47:58.920 --> 0:48:02.440 called the BMG move which was the banjo mandelin guitar movement, 0:48:02.520 --> 0:48:06.799 which was kind of a marketing things that to help 0:48:06.840 --> 0:48:09.319 sell all these when was that around around the turn 0:48:09.320 --> 0:48:12.040 of the century, and you have you have Gibson had 0:48:12.080 --> 0:48:15.719 mandolin orchestras, and there was a lot of that going on. 0:48:15.760 --> 0:48:18.040 But when Segovia came along in the nineteen twenties, he 0:48:18.120 --> 0:48:21.920 kind of swept away the American side of it and 0:48:21.960 --> 0:48:24.239 replaced it with the kind of the gravitas of the 0:48:24.280 --> 0:48:27.920 Spanish classical guitar. Well, give us, give us an example, 0:48:28.680 --> 0:48:32.799 I mean sego Via. You know it's it's classical in 0:48:32.840 --> 0:48:46.520 that I mean, like Bark it works so well. Was 0:48:46.520 --> 0:48:49.319 that it works so well on guitar? Well, yeah, I 0:48:49.320 --> 0:48:52.800 mean bach Bach wrote that for Loot, so it works 0:48:52.800 --> 0:48:55.480 on guitar. But but here's something to think about, especially 0:48:55.560 --> 0:49:05.760 the second section. I swear Paul got black from chet Atkins. 0:49:05.840 --> 0:49:09.760 Chet Atkins recorded that that particular piece, and Georgia George 0:49:09.760 --> 0:49:15.279 Harrison owned the record chet Atkins in Hi Fi ninety seven. Um, 0:49:15.400 --> 0:49:18.600 So George Harrison's and Paul McCartney. Yes, let's get a 0:49:18.600 --> 0:49:23.840 couple of songs down. Let's see that. I have to 0:49:23.920 --> 0:49:27.160 record this. I don't know if you have another version 0:49:27.200 --> 0:49:29.760 of Little Wing in you, because that was amazing yesterday. 0:49:29.800 --> 0:49:33.160 I'll give you to tunes. I'll do a little Wing, 0:49:33.239 --> 0:49:38.080 but first singing that we were talking Beatles, I'll give 0:49:38.080 --> 0:49:41.799 you a track from my latest CD and I've done. Now. 0:49:41.960 --> 0:49:44.960 This is my third album of Beatle arrangements, really the 0:49:45.000 --> 0:49:48.000 fourth if you include the Wings album. Yeah, but that 0:49:48.080 --> 0:49:52.759 doesn't quite fit in with the Beatles. Thing different. And 0:49:52.800 --> 0:49:55.400 I have to say I love all the Beatles stuff 0:49:55.440 --> 0:50:00.520 you do, but I found this album surprising in some 0:50:00.680 --> 0:50:05.480 of the selection of songs and the arrangements of some 0:50:05.640 --> 0:50:08.920 of them kind of kind of took me a little like, 0:50:09.400 --> 0:50:12.480 that's really interesting. And to some extent this was kind 0:50:12.480 --> 0:50:15.480 of a looser album than some of the others. Um 0:50:15.520 --> 0:52:39.640 but his um, she loves You. That's just fantastic. I 0:52:39.680 --> 0:52:41.640 have to I have to stop this for a second. 0:52:42.040 --> 0:52:47.560 So I had a conversation about you with Derrick Thompson, 0:52:47.640 --> 0:52:51.320 who's an author at the Atlantic who wrote a book 0:52:51.480 --> 0:52:55.080 called How Hits Are Made, and he looked at a 0:52:55.120 --> 0:53:00.240 lot of historical UM trends and hits and how tofferent 0:53:00.280 --> 0:53:03.279 things came about. It was really quite fascinating. And one 0:53:03.280 --> 0:53:06.160 of the things that he talked about was this industrial 0:53:06.239 --> 0:53:08.960 designer in the first half of the twentieth century whose 0:53:09.000 --> 0:53:14.360 name escapes me, but his philosophical insight was called Maya 0:53:14.840 --> 0:53:19.279 most advanced yet acceptable. And what this person did. He's 0:53:19.320 --> 0:53:23.560 the guy who literally designed the standard pencil sharpnry we 0:53:23.560 --> 0:53:26.920 all grew up with, and things like that. You couldn't 0:53:26.920 --> 0:53:29.760 take something too far out into the future because people 0:53:30.719 --> 0:53:34.400 would reject it. It had to be familiar. If you 0:53:34.440 --> 0:53:37.320 wanted to sell something different, he said, make it familiar. 0:53:37.760 --> 0:53:39.600 And if you want to sell something familiar, you had 0:53:39.640 --> 0:53:43.440 to make it a little different. And so so Derek 0:53:43.640 --> 0:53:48.120 describes how this works not only with industrial design, but 0:53:48.360 --> 0:53:51.920 movies and music and and so I bring you up 0:53:51.960 --> 0:53:54.920 as an example of you know, when you hear most 0:53:54.960 --> 0:53:58.560 beatle covers, it's either a note for note reproduction, in 0:53:58.600 --> 0:54:03.120 which case it's worthless, or it's so different that you 0:54:03.160 --> 0:54:08.960 don't even recognize it, with Joe Cocker being the exception, right. 0:54:09.280 --> 0:54:14.280 But he but that stood alone his version of of um, 0:54:14.360 --> 0:54:17.160 I'm trying to remember which cover he did that actually 0:54:17.160 --> 0:54:21.160 worked on on on its own. But when I referenced 0:54:21.320 --> 0:54:26.880 your work, I said, the songs are immediately recognizable melodically 0:54:26.920 --> 0:54:31.600 as each individual Beatles song, and yet they're so different 0:54:32.280 --> 0:54:35.480 that they stand alone. And so it's that that picture, 0:54:35.520 --> 0:54:39.520 the two ven diagrams that overlap of Oh, this is 0:54:39.560 --> 0:54:43.240 something I totally recognize, but it's such a completely fresh 0:54:43.280 --> 0:54:46.359 and different version of it that it makes it really 0:54:46.440 --> 0:54:50.399 quite interesting. And he literally a whole book how hits 0:54:50.400 --> 0:54:58.400 are made. The Beatles music encapsulates that because it's especially 0:54:58.480 --> 0:55:01.600 something like She Loves You, where there are elements of 0:55:02.360 --> 0:55:10.760 tim Panale of Broadway, there are elements of blues, and 0:55:11.360 --> 0:55:17.360 there are elements of even folk, but put together in 0:55:17.400 --> 0:55:22.440 a way that is uniquely them, no doubt about that. 0:55:22.800 --> 0:55:28.600 So it's that absolutely, that's the thing is it's it's familiar. Well, 0:55:28.640 --> 0:55:31.720 that's their work was familiar yet, but I'm talking about 0:55:32.800 --> 0:55:36.279 my version. But but my ability to take that and 0:55:36.320 --> 0:55:40.960 then translate it to the guitar, which and I'm using 0:55:41.040 --> 0:55:47.759 my musicality, my musicianship to do that, then really you know, 0:55:48.000 --> 0:55:50.759 I've got a foundation to build on. And then the 0:55:50.800 --> 0:55:54.320 way that I approached the guitar in terms of working 0:55:54.360 --> 0:55:58.000 to make the melody sing, to make the base interesting, 0:55:58.120 --> 0:56:00.640 and you know, whether it's reproducing what's on the Beetle 0:56:00.719 --> 0:56:06.160 record or some interpretation of that is, it's just it works. 0:56:06.520 --> 0:56:08.920 It seems to work. You know, someone could sit down 0:56:09.560 --> 0:56:12.400 at a piano and play the song and there's who cares. 0:56:12.440 --> 0:56:18.560 There's nothing special there but your versions they're that familiar 0:56:18.719 --> 0:56:21.600 but different enough that apparently apparently I have a voice 0:56:21.920 --> 0:56:24.319 on your guitar, so I think that's part of it, 0:56:24.400 --> 0:56:28.600 to say the least. So you're asking about little wings, 0:56:28.640 --> 0:56:30.480 all right, before you start, I have to get this 0:56:30.520 --> 0:56:34.080 teat up. I'm gonna make you start that over again. Chris. You, 0:56:34.320 --> 0:56:36.839 by the way, you destroyed the room last night, but 0:56:36.960 --> 0:56:39.040 I don't know if you're aware of it. People were. 0:56:41.280 --> 0:56:43.759 So let's let's do a little a little little wing, 0:56:43.880 --> 0:56:47.279 A little little little little wing. Let me put my 0:56:47.320 --> 0:56:52.960 strap on now, agetting serious? Oh yeah, really serious. Pay 0:56:53.000 --> 0:56:55.640 attention to this because his arms on the chair. So 0:56:55.719 --> 1:01:38.880 it's all proof O amazing, Thank you, Lawrence. That that 1:01:39.120 --> 1:01:43.600 is just beyond words. We have been speaking with guitartist 1:01:43.680 --> 1:01:48.640 extraordinarire Lawrence Juber. If you enjoy this conversation. Well before 1:01:48.800 --> 1:01:51.480 I get to that, if you enjoy the music you heard, 1:01:52.040 --> 1:01:56.000 go to Lawrence Duber dot com. There are twenty four 1:01:56.160 --> 1:02:00.280 or five discs available. Is that about right? So I 1:02:00.760 --> 1:02:03.919 count if you're a Beatles fan, you have to get 1:02:04.000 --> 1:02:08.200 all three Beatles albums plus the Wings album, which I 1:02:08.240 --> 1:02:11.080 think the Wings Album reveals songs that I didn't like 1:02:11.200 --> 1:02:13.440 in the seventies and eighties, and I have found a 1:02:13.480 --> 1:02:17.400 newfound uh, I've come upon a newfound respect for them 1:02:17.440 --> 1:02:21.080 having having you reveal different aspects of it. But if 1:02:21.120 --> 1:02:25.360 you are at all a guitar aficionado, a classical music fan, 1:02:26.080 --> 1:02:32.080 Lawrence's original compositions are really a beauty to behold. You 1:02:32.080 --> 1:02:36.200 you played um Guitar Noir last night, which is a 1:02:36.240 --> 1:02:41.560 lovely song. You played Um. I'm trying to remember pH 1:02:41.760 --> 1:02:47.840 not Telegraph Finger, fingerboard Road. His original work is just 1:02:48.000 --> 1:02:53.040 an exposition of uh guitar. I don't even want to 1:02:53.040 --> 1:02:58.640 say prodigy, just just outstanding. There's a reason musicians are 1:02:58.680 --> 1:03:02.200 big fans of his because because of because of his work, 1:03:02.480 --> 1:03:06.080 and and I find his his You know, when my 1:03:06.080 --> 1:03:07.560 my wife and I are in the car and we 1:03:07.600 --> 1:03:10.040 can't agree on what we want to hear we pop 1:03:10.040 --> 1:03:12.880 in one of your discs and everybody's happy. Um So, 1:03:13.000 --> 1:03:15.480 if you enjoyed the music, go to Laune Stupid dot 1:03:15.520 --> 1:03:18.240 com and you could see both his tour dates and 1:03:18.440 --> 1:03:21.200 all the CDs he has for sale. If you enjoy 1:03:21.320 --> 1:03:23.320 this conversation, be sure and look up an inch or 1:03:23.360 --> 1:03:26.920 down an inch on Apple iTunes and you can see 1:03:27.480 --> 1:03:30.600 or Bloomberg dot com or SoundCloud or overcast and you 1:03:30.600 --> 1:03:33.200 could see the other hundred and forty nine or so 1:03:33.240 --> 1:03:37.400 such conversations we've had. We love your comments, feedback and 1:03:37.480 --> 1:03:40.640 suggestions right to us at m IB podcast at Bloomberg 1:03:40.680 --> 1:03:43.520 dot net. I would be remiss if I did not 1:03:43.600 --> 1:03:48.800 thank Taylor Riggs, my producer, and Medina Parwana, my recording 1:03:48.880 --> 1:03:55.280 engineer slash audiologist, who takes my messy recordings and puts 1:03:55.320 --> 1:03:59.960 them all uh in in using her technical production expert 1:04:00.000 --> 1:04:03.400 piece makes it listenable to you. I'm Barry Ridults. You've 1:04:03.440 --> 1:04:06.120 been listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.