1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: Conversations on life, style, beauty and relationships. It's the Velvet's 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: Edge podcast with Kelly Henderson. Okay, I am back with 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: Jodie White. She is our licensed therapist and love addiction specialists. 4 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,319 Speaker 1: We're also a podcast host. I'm a huge fan of 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: The podcast is Journals of a Love Addict. Um, So, 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: we did a podcast a couple months ago. Was that 7 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: I can't even remember at this point. It might have 8 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: been last summer at the last year a blur. Yes, 9 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: like the pandemic. All feels like one big one to me. 10 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's very weird. But um I told 11 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: you and you and I've been talking a little bit 12 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 1: before this, but I've been in recovery for codependency since 13 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen. In the last few years, I've started 14 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: to slowly dip my toe into some love addiction work 15 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: and it has been so interesting. I was just telling 16 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 1: you this, I have never found myself so hesitant to 17 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: do the work around this kind of Is it trauma 18 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: or attachment wounds? I think that's how you describe it. 19 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: Is that a typical thing that happens to people with 20 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: this love addiction stuff? Yes, it is. Why well, Okay, 21 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: so we're talking about attachment and so, yes, you just asked, 22 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: is it we call it trauma or attachment ones? I 23 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: call it a lot of different things because it's a lot. Well, 24 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:20,759 Speaker 1: let me start with this. I don't like the term 25 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: love addiction. I don't like the term love addict. I 26 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: don't even like the term codependence, you know, because but 27 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: the thing is, those are terms that are out there. 28 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: And I am trained in p A Melodies model UM 29 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: and so p A. Melody wrote Facing Codependence, and she 30 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: wrote the book Facing Love Addiction, and those terms helped 31 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: me when I got into recovery. And so I call 32 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: them starter terms that people can google, that they can 33 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: find books, they can thinks that have been written about that, 34 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: and then they can start, you know, their own recovery, 35 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: you know, doing research, getting lots of information with those 36 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: starter terms, and you can call it whatever you want. 37 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: That's what I like to tell people. Call it what 38 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: you want to call it, really, but know that it 39 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:06,559 Speaker 1: is trauma. This is all attachment trauma. Yeah what yeah, 40 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: So what does that mean? I think we talked about 41 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: this this in the last podcast, but I do want 42 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: to give people a little bit of an overview who 43 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,799 Speaker 1: are just joining us in this one. What would attachment 44 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: trauma even mean? Yeah, and so that's another term to that. 45 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: You know, attachment trauma is also a pretty broad term 46 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: because attachment trauma can happen in adult relationships with your 47 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: attachment figure. Right as adults, we have attachment figures people 48 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: that we attached with in our relationships. But we're talking 49 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: really about childhood developmental trauma. And that is actually what p. 50 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: Melty calls codependence is um it is uh developmental immaturity. 51 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: And so that means is, you know, children go through 52 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 1: stages of development, and if there is wound being in 53 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: any of those areas, there is going to be some 54 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: issue with developing in those areas. So we might not 55 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: mature in certain areas, which then leads us to be 56 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: more immature in our relationships as adults. So we can 57 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: call them like an interruption and attachment and they can 58 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:11,239 Speaker 1: look anything. What Peo says, you know, abuse falls into 59 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: two categories, which is a meshment or neglect. And so 60 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,639 Speaker 1: the thing about neglect is that it can be kind 61 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: of invisible in a way. When we think of neglect, 62 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: actually we might think of someone who doesn't have food, 63 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: who doesn't have shelter, who doesn't have clothing and basic 64 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 1: needs met, right, and that is that's extreme neglect. But 65 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: when we think about emotional neglect, you know, that's something 66 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: that can be really subtle, you know, and and it 67 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: can happen so frequently, UM, and even in loving households 68 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: because parents are busy, you know, even if you have 69 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: a two parent household, working meetings, running kids to soccer practice, um, 70 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: dealing with other children. You know, there's a lot of 71 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: reasons that children might not get the emotional nurturance that 72 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: they need, and they can show up later in life 73 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: at what was emotional and neglect. So, UM, that is 74 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: what we look at as trauma. So if we look 75 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: at trauma in two ways, either a meshment or neglect, 76 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: And a lot of times in love addiction, we're talking 77 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: about emotional neglect. UM. With love avoidance, we're talking often 78 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: times more about what was a meshment. And so that 79 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: is when UM, I don't like this term either, let's 80 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: just use it. UM. It's like helicopter parents, you know, 81 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: where it's like you're on the child, you're in the 82 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: child hula hoop all the time, you know, and there's 83 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: no freedom for the child to really become their own person. Um, 84 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: So someone who might become more avoidant later in life 85 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: might feel love is suffocating, so they kind of pushed 86 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: away from intimacy and what they look at as love 87 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: and attachment. So do you see does that make sense? 88 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: It totally makes sense to me. I mean, I think 89 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: that's so interesting. I was thinking about when you were 90 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: talking about the neglect piece, Like, it's so interesting because 91 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 1: parents could also be working through their own trauma, and 92 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: so it's like, are dealing with their you know, life 93 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: is hard and as an adult, the more the older 94 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: I get, the more I'm like, I mean, there is 95 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 1: constantly some issue, right, and so that's hard as a parent, 96 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 1: I would imagine to consistently emotionally show up when you're 97 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: also dealing as a human being with your own trauma, 98 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 1: your own ship from your childhood, you know, like any 99 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: of that stuff. That's right. Um, gibor Mate talks. He 100 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 1: does a really great job of talking about the importance 101 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 1: of a tunement in childhood, which is basically, you know, 102 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 1: when we'll use the example of a crying baby or 103 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: crying toddler, and when the parents is regulated, you know, 104 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: they can pick up the baby and they can hold 105 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: the baby and help the baby regulate. If a parent 106 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 1: is disregulated, it's almost impossible to get the child to regulate, 107 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: and so the child doesn't suite, you know, with the parent. 108 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: Does it make sense? And so if a parent is stressed, 109 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 1: the parent is dealing with three other children, or the 110 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: parent is trying to rush to get to work or 111 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: their second job, you know, maybe they're a single parent. 112 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: And um, so though that attunement, how rare you think 113 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 1: that must be or how hard that is to do consistently. So, um, 114 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: that's why I look at you know, I'll have clients 115 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: sometimes come in and say, I'm forty five years old. 116 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: I've always felt securely attached, and then i got into 117 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,559 Speaker 1: this relationship and now I'm behaving like a love addict 118 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 1: and i don't know what's going on. And it's because 119 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:36,559 Speaker 1: another thing to look at is we can go through 120 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 1: life and not this stuff can lie dormant, is how 121 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 1: I look at it. And it can get triggered by 122 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: a particular partnership, of particular dynamic, you know, with someone 123 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: who comes along and is more avoidant and triggers that UM, 124 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:54,239 Speaker 1: insecure attachment. So you might not even know you haven't. 125 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: That's that's so interesting to me. And you say this 126 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: a lot in your podcast. But there have in times 127 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 1: in my life where I don't feel any of this stuff, 128 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: or there's been relationships where I don't feel any of 129 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: this stuff, but it flares up. And a lot of 130 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: times too, when I'm on my own, I'm great. So 131 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: that's not I mean, I can be lonely in want 132 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: a relationship, but this stuff is not activated. So my anxiety, 133 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: my panic, my codependence, like any sort of those symptoms, 134 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: my codependency, it's just not activated or I don't notice 135 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: it in the same way, and my life feels more manageable. 136 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: And then I can get in a relationship, and what 137 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: if that dynamic triggers this stuff, my life becomes completely unmanageable. 138 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, If I drew you a picture of thirty 139 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: years of my love addiction, it would be in the 140 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: relationship either love addict or love avoid it. And between 141 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: relationships what we you know, some but somebody might call 142 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: high functioning. Um, where I just was cruising, I was 143 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: doing great, I was kicking as at work, I was 144 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: doing all kinds of great things. Get into a relationship 145 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: especially if I got into a relationship with someone who 146 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: was avoidant, I put everything would fall apart because everything 147 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: became about trying to get that love avoidant partner to 148 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: pay attention to me. It's all I cared about, you know, 149 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: or love me or validate me or whatever it is 150 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: I needed from that particular person. So yeah, that's that's 151 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: very common. Oh God, So love acts and love avoidance 152 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: always drawn to each other. So if if we look 153 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: at it as something that's lying dormant, right, And this 154 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,959 Speaker 1: is not saying everyone's got you know, everyone has a 155 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: little bit of love addict or a little bit of 156 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: love avoidance in them. But um, I don't know. That's 157 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: not No, that's not the case, because there are co 158 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: addictive relationships. There's three types of co addictive relationships. You've 159 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: got the love addict love avoidance, but then you've got 160 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: two avoidance me together and that's a very low intensity relationship. 161 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: But outside of the relationship, there's intensity going on there 162 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: maybe an affair, or maybe there's some gambling, or maybe 163 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: there's an addiction or um, maybe someone's you know, spending 164 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:03,719 Speaker 1: too much money in shopping. But in the relationship it 165 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: seems very low intensity or even someone like that. It 166 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: works hard to interrupt, but like I sometimes want to 167 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: point that out because I've I don't know in that 168 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: dynamic too. And work can often be a way to 169 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,439 Speaker 1: keep intensity outside of their relationship because you're quote unquote 170 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: so busy with work or whatever. And that I actually 171 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: thank you for bringing that up, because I think that 172 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: might be if I were to make a you know, 173 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: a guess on this is that that might be the 174 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: most common because it's also the most acceptable. Of course, 175 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: you know, the more you work, the better you are 176 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: a provider, or the more you work, the more society 177 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: values you, more money you make whatever, so um, and 178 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: it's a really good way it can be, especially people 179 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 1: in recovery. I've noticed that work can become the new 180 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 1: addiction because you know what, making up for lost time 181 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: or getting lots of validation there, you know, by throwing 182 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: themselves into work. And I actually have been guilty about 183 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: that too. Yeah, I have to catch myself because you 184 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: will burn yourself out. Um, But then you also have check. 185 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: A lot of addicts can be together too. Oh, I 186 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: can't imagine that dynamic. Yeah yeah, someone um told me 187 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: it was in p A Melodies workshop out of the meadows. 188 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: They talked about, Um, picture the couple that's been married 189 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 1: for fifty years and they do every single thing together, 190 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: and they dress alike. They both wear Hawaiian shirts. You know, 191 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: they both really fun little you know, like and they 192 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: just cannot be apart, you know, everything of them. They 193 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 1: can't make plans without each other, they can't eat different 194 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: meals they have to eat. It's like just everything is together. 195 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: So see, it isn't that interesting because when you're describing that, 196 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: I know people are listening and they're like, oh, but 197 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: that sounds like a cute little couple, you know. Like, 198 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: so how do you know when there's a problem with 199 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: the dynamic and when it's just like because I probably 200 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: have never had a healthy relationship, I don't really know 201 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: the answer to this, right, but it's healthy, I mean exactly. 202 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 1: But but like what how would you dictate if you 203 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: just love to be with your partner or you guys 204 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: are both love addicts, Like what would be the deciding 205 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 1: factor in that question? So I think everything is in 206 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: its individual right, Like, I let's use the couple that 207 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: does every single thing together, they dress alike and all 208 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: that thing. If it works for them and it's not 209 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: causing them a problem. Then I guess that's not a problem. Right, 210 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: But now you look at are they able to have 211 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: relationships with other people? Because I think actually in the 212 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: example I was using that I heard at the Meadows workshop, 213 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 1: they were talking about how the kids are affected in that, 214 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: but oftentimes when the couple, the parents are so love 215 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: addicted together that their children are neglected. And so that's interesting. Yeah, Okay, Well, um, 216 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 1: I asked you to do maybe a little brief over 217 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: you because I think people have heard the term codependency 218 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: more free quently then love addiction. For like love addiction 219 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: is finally now just coming onto the scene or it 220 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 1: is in my my world. But um, can you do 221 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: a little brief description of the difference between the two, 222 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: because I am a lucky girl that has both, but 223 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: that's not always the case. Sure, So I'm going to 224 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: reference Goomtay here because he does such a great job 225 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: and so he always his The way he puts it 226 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 1: is it's not why the addiction, it's why the pain. 227 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: And so if we're looking at childhood and attachment trauma, right, 228 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 1: and so let's use the example of being uh emotionally neglected, 229 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:40,079 Speaker 1: not getting our emotional needs met. How that leads to UM, 230 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: it doesn't feel good as a child, you're it's painful, 231 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: and so we turn to something to help soothe ourselves. 232 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: And oftentimes for people who grew up to deal with 233 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: love addiction, there's fantasy, right and it's first probably the 234 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: fantasy of a parent who is going to be nurturing 235 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:01,439 Speaker 1: and thing, you know, if only I do this, then 236 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: maybe they'll be like this, they'll love me more, they'll 237 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: do what I want them to do, or they'll behave 238 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: the way I want them to behave. But then that 239 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 1: can develop into fantasy about another person who will come 240 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: rescue them. That's very common in childhood and I definitely 241 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 1: did that. When I was seven or eight. I started 242 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 1: fantasizing about, you know, people on TV UM. I always 243 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: use my example of um Eric Estrada from Chips and 244 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: Um Darsky from Starsky and Hutch. I mean, I really 245 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: had serious crushes on them, and I used to fantasize 246 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: about being a grown up and living in Hollywood and 247 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: being married to one of them. And what I learned 248 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: later and through my recovery, was that whoa it actually 249 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: that fantasy wasn't about them. It was about how I 250 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: felt about myself. I say that again, that's interesting. Yeah, 251 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 1: so the fantasy. For the longest time, I thought it 252 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: was about those people that I would fantasized about, right, 253 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: But it was really about how good I felt about myself. 254 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: In the fantasy, I was a grown up. I was independent, 255 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: I had awesome clothes, you know, I had freedom. I 256 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: felt good about myself. Um. But see that the trick 257 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: is that, let's just say, paunch from um chips had 258 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: to be part of that that fantasy in order for 259 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: me to feel that way about myself. Wow. Yeah, it 260 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: was for me too. And so then that fantasy you 261 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: get in the middle school, you start liking you know, 262 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: for me, I started liking boys and um, having crushes 263 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: on boys and usually someone older who I had on 264 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: a pedestal. Um. And then you do start dating, and 265 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: I started dating really emotionally unavailable guys even in high school. Um, 266 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: and so here, so it's all developing. See how this 267 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: is all developing. But so you're looking to something to 268 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: soothe and this what that turns into is it's the 269 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: codependence is developing throughout childhood. Right. Um, there's an the 270 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: five core symptoms of codependence. And this is according to 271 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: p A melodies work, And this is I love her 272 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: model because it just for me. To me, it worked 273 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: in my recovery. But it's also you can apply this 274 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: model to pretty much any area of life. But it's UM. 275 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: Codependence is the five core symptoms. Issues with self esteem 276 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: that means either too much or too little UM. Issues 277 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: with boundaries either no boundaries or walled off right, issues 278 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: with moderation, and then issues with UM dependency. And see 279 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: this is what a lot of people think of codependence, 280 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: has issues with dependency, but really that's just one of 281 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: the five core symptoms UM. And then issues with owning 282 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: one's reality. And so then you take that. So codependence 283 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: is already brewing. It's already there throughout childhood, right, it 284 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: goes into you start getting into adult relationships. The codependence 285 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: can show up in your adult relationships with love addiction. Um, 286 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: I say love addiction is rooted in codependence. So the 287 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: codependence is already there. It's like the garden. And then 288 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: they love addiction is the weeds that grows in the 289 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: in the garden, right, Um, And you may not even 290 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: notice the love addiction because you just think it's normal. 291 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: Your behavior is normal. You know, you think it's normal 292 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: to be um in a relationship with someone who doesn't 293 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: show up the way that you ideally would like them too. 294 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: And it's normal to try to conform in order to 295 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: be what they may or may not want you to 296 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: be in order to get that left. So then you 297 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: go back to what I was talking about in childhood. 298 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: If I do this, then maybe I'll get mom or 299 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: dad to love me like this if I do it 300 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: this way. So it starts really early, So it is 301 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: our quote unquote normal you know at the time we're adults. Um. 302 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: And so love addiction is rooted in codependence. Not everybody 303 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,880 Speaker 1: who struggles with codependence is going to end up experiencing 304 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: love addiction. Um, But everybody who struggles with love addiction 305 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: struggles with codependence. Isn't that true for all? Um, Like, 306 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 1: let's use alcoholism because I think that's like the one 307 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: that people are maybe more familiar with. But um, people 308 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 1: that I know who are in a a also a 309 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 1: lot of times do codependence work because really, what like 310 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: alcohol is the symptom of all of that other stuff, right, 311 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: And so in most addictions, like if we're saying love 312 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: addiction or alcoholism, there's codependency behind it and that's what's 313 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: bringing the behaviors to the table. And then once you 314 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: get sober or you stop drinking, you can address the 315 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: codependency issues behind it. Exactly. That the way to describe it. Yeah, 316 00:17:54,080 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 1: it is, um. So if we look at you know, yes, alcoholism, 317 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: And what's so fascinating about that is that we look 318 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 1: at it and think, oh, if I quit drinking, then 319 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: everything's going to be better, right, And it's actually the beginning. 320 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: And you know what it does, think you get better, 321 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: But then what that does, It just clears the crud 322 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 1: so you can look at the crud underneath that. You 323 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 1: don't have the medicator anymore, right, You're not exactly right, 324 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 1: so um, and that's when a lot of times the 325 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 1: love addiction will actually flare up. I work with a 326 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: lot of clients who get sober first and then realize, 327 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 1: oh wow, look at my relationships. They're a really big mess. Right. 328 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: So yeah, so interesting. Well I messaged you a couple 329 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: of weeks ago because I follow you on Instagram. Obviously 330 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 1: you're at Jodie White LPC, right, just so people know, Um, 331 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: it's a great Instagram, and if you're identifying with any 332 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,120 Speaker 1: of this dynamic, I really highly go suggest I suggest 333 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: you guys go follow her, just because you give these 334 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 1: like motivational quotes like it's always comes at the right 335 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,040 Speaker 1: time too, or you make fun of yourself in some 336 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: sort of addiction way and it's like, yes, okay, this 337 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: is okay, kind of can give you hope, like this 338 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: doesn't have to be doomsday all the time. Um but 339 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: you did a post that really resonated with me, and 340 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: it's about relationship dynamics, which obviously most of this stuff 341 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: is about, but it was one specific thing that I 342 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: really really find myself doing. And I've seen so many 343 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: of my friends do it too, so I think it's 344 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,439 Speaker 1: really common. Actually. But I want to read the post 345 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: and then I want to talk through the different things 346 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: that maybe we do in this dynamic and how, you know, 347 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 1: maybe some tips on how we can do things differently 348 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 1: for the people listening. But um, so you said, let 349 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 1: me find the actual post. The actual post says, if 350 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: you're waiting for a partner to do the work on themselves, 351 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: the work you believe they need to do in order 352 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 1: to be better, that's the same as hoping they'll change 353 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: or become someone else. We must get to know a 354 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: person for who they are right now. That's like the 355 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 1: key word for me right now, not who we hope 356 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: that they will be at some point in the future. 357 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: My therapist, when I read this, I was like, I 358 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 1: heard that one before. It was kind of like a 359 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: you know, gut punch. But my therapists told me this 360 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: exactly the same thing. She says, I have this tendency 361 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: to date on potential. Yeah, have you heard that before? Yeah? 362 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 1: I use that a lot that It's like the addiction 363 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: to the potential right what they could be if the 364 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 1: things like you were talking about earlier. So you say 365 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,360 Speaker 1: in the caption that you said I'd meet someone, then 366 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 1: the fantasy would kick in and I'd overlook the reality 367 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: of who they were. I either lack of availability, but 368 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 1: it often get into their relationship with them instead. So 369 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 1: you would see the red flags, but you wouldn't necessarily 370 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: stop yourself, right right, And so look, functional adult me 371 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: saw the red flag. Okay, okay, you know, wounded child 372 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 1: me was like, but only if I can do all 373 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: these things, let me perform, let me do this, let 374 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: me hold on to hope and potential, because that's what 375 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 1: I've been doing my whole life, is like sure, holding 376 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 1: out for the potential of what could be better if 377 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: if only I can do this for that. But I mean, 378 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 1: if you're anything like me, like I'm pretty skilled at 379 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 1: doing that kind of stuff. So this is how. This 380 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: is what I tell myself, and um, for a while, 381 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: it does work, you know, like I can bring I 382 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: can see the different areas even where I'm like, oh, 383 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 1: I got that one, I could do that or could 384 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: help them with that, and then we could like really 385 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: even it out and then you know, like this would 386 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 1: be better if we did this, And I've got the 387 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 1: ideas already, but it's super subconscious. I don't realize I'm 388 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: doing this obviously, but I can see where once all 389 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 1: of that stuff is sorted out, this will be the 390 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: perfect relationship, right right. Meanwhile, my entire life falls apart, 391 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 1: right because we're so over focused on the person that 392 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: we're with and over functioning in the relationship to try 393 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,719 Speaker 1: to get all that stuff to work. Yeah, right, Um, 394 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 1: so something, So let's go back to what we're saying 395 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: about the issues with self esteem, which is one of 396 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 1: the symptoms of codependence. Okay, So then that that correlates 397 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: into one of the symptoms of love addiction, which is 398 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: we put someone on a pedestal, we overvalue the person 399 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: that we're with, right. I mean it's not that people 400 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: aren't valuable, but when we overvalue them, right, we're putting 401 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: them on a pedestal. We're making them bigger, higher up 402 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: than us. Right. Um So, but let's look at when 403 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: we are believing that we know what would be best 404 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: for this other person, we're actually one upping. It's like, 405 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 1: I know what would be best if only they would 406 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: do therapy and they'd work on that thing, or if 407 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: only they would curtail that drinking. That drinking you kind 408 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: of partm what they're drinking. So what we're doing is 409 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: really judging and we're one upping. So I believe that 410 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: we do that to kind of um tooth the insecure 411 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,880 Speaker 1: attachment that we have when we have them on a pedestal. 412 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 1: You know, it's it's it's painful, it's uncomfortable to think 413 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: they're better than us. So a lot do they You know, 414 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: I need to be I need to be hot and 415 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: sexy and all these things in order for this person 416 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,679 Speaker 1: who's way up on that pedestal to love me the 417 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: way I need to be loved. That doesn't feel good. 418 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: It's it feels it's based on our insecurity. And so 419 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,919 Speaker 1: I think when we do that, um, if only I 420 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: can change them and tweak this and fix that, that's 421 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 1: a little bit of um one upping in order to 422 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: kind of counter are insecure attachment. And how painful that is. 423 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: I never really realized that, because it is interesting because 424 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: you can be both right, Like I can look at 425 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: a situation and go, there's I think a part of 426 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: me that maybe, if I mean really honest, takes comfort 427 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: in someone else having ship go like not right, because 428 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: I I compare their outside of inside. So if my 429 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 1: insides are a mess, it's like, oh, good, okay, I 430 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: see I'm not the only one that's got something going on, 431 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: um because of my insecurity piece, I guess. But then 432 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 1: there's some stuff where I'm like, oh, I've done a 433 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: bunch of work. I've been in recovery for this many years. 434 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: I know about that, like I have a lot of knowledge. 435 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,199 Speaker 1: I know what to do, you know, But in reality 436 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 1: it takes me out of my own program work and 437 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: the focus on me and said, then I fall back 438 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: into my really un sober thinking and code of exactly 439 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 1: exactly see how that worked, that goes around in this 440 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 1: kind of circle or Liken the dot kind of thing. Um. 441 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: And I guess I should also say, though, when I 442 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: posted that, I did get a message from someone saying 443 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 1: that people can change, and I'm nowhere in there do 444 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: I say that people can't change. Um, I'm a therapist. 445 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: I believe people can change, and I've seen it, I've 446 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: done it. I'm right, made a lot of it. But 447 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: what I'm saying is we're talking about co adictive relationships 448 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: people who struggle with attachment trauma and lot of addiction. 449 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:07,199 Speaker 1: We get into relationships, we stay in them, and we 450 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: stay in them because we have this fantasy of what 451 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: it will be like once they do all these things 452 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: that we know they can do if only they would 453 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: do them, you know. And so we have to be 454 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: in touch with reality, which again that's one of the 455 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: symptoms of codependence, right, issues with reality. We have to 456 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 1: be in touch with the reality of the situation and 457 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: who is the person, who are they really and get 458 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: to know them based on who they really are, not 459 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: who we want them to be or think they could 460 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 1: be if we they tweak a few things and then 461 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: make a decision do I want to be in this 462 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:44,160 Speaker 1: relationship with this person based in reality? Who this is? Right? 463 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,640 Speaker 1: And that also makes me think about like do they 464 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: want to do the work because I just assume that 465 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: everyone does, because I'm like, oh, like this is from childhood. 466 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:57,880 Speaker 1: I want to deal with this. I want to. I don't. 467 00:25:57,880 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: I don't want my relationship to look like that as 468 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 1: and it's a itself. Um. But one of the things 469 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 1: that I've bumped up against is I get in a 470 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: relationship assuming that everyone thinks the way that I do 471 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: or wants the same things as I do, when in reality, 472 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: a lot of people don't want to do the work 473 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 1: or it's not interesting to them to even look at 474 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 1: that stuff. So I pretend like if they did the work, 475 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: they would be better, but like they don't even want 476 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 1: to do the work right because right, And again it 477 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: goes back to you know, technically, who are we to 478 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,959 Speaker 1: say what work they need to do exactly right? So 479 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: that kind of goes back into the one up a 480 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: little bit like that we think we know because we 481 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 1: have been in recovery and we've done all the therapy 482 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 1: and all that stuff, and so it's you know, whether 483 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 1: or not they do all that. It's kind of goes 484 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 1: with that phrase of um, you know, it's it's it's 485 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 1: none of our business, you know what what work they 486 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: need to do, what they will ultimately end up doing 487 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: on themselves that they do anything. That's not for us 488 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: to say. It's for each individual person to figure out, 489 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: you know, what work they need to do. Um. You know, 490 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,640 Speaker 1: I was in a co addictive relationship for four years. 491 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: It was on and off. I don't know even know 492 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: how many times we broke up and got back together. 493 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: And I just always thought, if only he'd go to therapy, 494 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 1: if only he quit drinking, if only he'd stopped working 495 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 1: so much, you know, And I would be on him 496 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: all the time about this because I knew best, right. 497 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: And so years later, that was eleven and twelve years 498 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 1: ago that we broke up, and he has been in therapy, 499 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 1: he has curtailed his drinking. Um. He is now married, 500 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: you know, and we were not on bad terms. But um, 501 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: he said to me not too long ago, he said, 502 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 1: you you could see things that I couldn't see. And 503 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 1: I said, now, it's not the time to tell me 504 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:48,239 Speaker 1: that in some way, but at the same time, I 505 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: was already in recovery, so it was like, cool, I'm 506 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,919 Speaker 1: so glad, you know, because but my point with that 507 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 1: is that people can eventually get to a point where 508 00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: they might do the work later, But are you going 509 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: you weight around for that? You know, like you've got 510 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 1: to look at how valuable you are and how valuable 511 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: your life is, and um, you know, live your life 512 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,120 Speaker 1: and take care of yourself versus focusing on someone else 513 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: and what you're hoping they'll do right, and not also 514 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 1: attached to their journey, like their journey is their journey, 515 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,159 Speaker 1: it's not your journey. And where where are you on 516 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: your journey? That's like the question I keep having to 517 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: ask myself in life because I can I don't. It's 518 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 1: not even just romantic relationships for me. It's friendships, it 519 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: can be work relationships. It's like the dynamic of getting 520 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: really attached to someone else's journey and thinking that I 521 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: know what they need to do to help fix whatever 522 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: issue it is, even when they didn't ask right. Yeah, 523 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: and that goes with the codependence you know, um with 524 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: boundaries really goes probably several symptoms, but looks look at boundaries. 525 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 1: And I always use the hula hoop analogy. Okay, everyone's 526 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: in their own hula hoop, and we should not get 527 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: into someone else's hula hoop, and we shouldn't really let 528 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 1: anybody else in our hula hoop, and we can bump 529 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: up against hula hoops because that's cool, you know. But 530 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: that's about being an autonomous, interdependent, you know, adult in 531 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: another relationship. It's like, you know, you can have healthy boundaries, 532 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: you can be your own person, and you can also 533 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: be in relationship with someone else. Yeah, I want to 534 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the fantasy piece, because we 535 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: use that term a lot um in regards to love addiction, 536 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: and it's very common in that world and all the 537 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: books you read. But like, I've always associated fantasy with 538 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 1: the are the word fantasy with like sexual fantasy, and like, 539 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: I don't really believe that to be I mean, it's 540 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: that it could be a part of that, but I 541 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: think that it's a much bigger picture. And so I 542 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: didn't really realize the fantasy that I was living in 543 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: in my life, or that I have lived in in relationships, 544 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: or the fantasies I was putting on certain people. So 545 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: can you kind of explain what that might look like. 546 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: I mean, you did say you know what your experience 547 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: was growing up, So it can be about a relationship. 548 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: But like say you meet a person now, or you 549 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: met a person now, what could that look like if 550 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: you were in your active love addiction? So I'm actually 551 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: I'm thinking if I could use an example that, Um, okay, 552 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,719 Speaker 1: let's see. Well, there was a relationship I had. This 553 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: is a while ago, but um, there was a lot 554 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: going on in my life. But I thought I was 555 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 1: managing it. And then I look back now and go, wow, 556 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 1: I was really not doing great. Um, I dated, I 557 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: went on a date with this guy who very nice guy, 558 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: but I was not interested. And it wasn't a big 559 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: you know, it was just I wasn't interested. Well, then 560 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: something traumatic happened and I won't go into that here, 561 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: but I suddenly decided that person was of interest to me, 562 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: and I grabbed on and held onto that relationship for 563 00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: about a year, trying to make him into who I 564 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: knew at him to be because I was avoiding the 565 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: trauma that I had just experienced, right and all the 566 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: things I needed to focus on. And so this is 567 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: an adult example of Um, how the fantasy can show up. 568 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: It's that it's I call it kind of like it's 569 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: square peg, roundhole. You're just constantly forcing something. And so 570 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: maybe instead of the term fantasy in this case, it's 571 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: just not based in reality. We're not looking at reality. 572 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: We're not living in reality, you know, because we're not 573 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: looking at the reality of this relationship. We're not a fit. Um, 574 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: you know, I'm trying to force something. I'm falling apart 575 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: as I try to force this relationship to happen, and 576 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: I keep believing that if only I will do this 577 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: or X y Z, if I'm hotter or cooler or um, 578 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: whatever is I need to do is always a performance 579 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: of some sort, then that will change the way that 580 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: he behaves towards me. So that's one of the ways 581 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: that you know, to look at fantasy. It's not so 582 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: much as we're off and laly on like a fairy tale, 583 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: but we're not rooted in reality and what's actually happening. 584 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: I love the like, if I just do this, then 585 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: this relationship will work, because then you're molding yourself into 586 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: this person. You're not either, which right like I've I've 587 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: gotten to the end of relationships before, and they're like, 588 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: I just I thought we were happy or whatever. And 589 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: I'm like, because they're happy because I'm jumping through hoops 590 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: to make their relationship work and do whatever. But I'm 591 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: not even being myself. So I'm miserable, Like you know 592 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: what I mean. So you're living in this place of 593 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: completely abandoning everything you want need to the point where 594 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: like I can lose what I actually do want to need, 595 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 1: I don't even know anymore. And so they're but they're 596 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: blindsided in some ways, which is actually pretty messed up. Well, 597 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 1: and that tells you about the love addict love avoidance dynamic, 598 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: because I used to always say, especially in this for 599 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: your co adicutive relationship, like it's just like you don't 600 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,240 Speaker 1: have to do anything. I just do everything well nodding, 601 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: I mean, why would he do anything? I was doing 602 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: everything right? Yeah, here I was being resentful because I 603 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: was doing all the work, when meanwhile he's just being himself. 604 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: You know, He's like, and that's the overfunctioning in the relationship. Yes, 605 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 1: I'm all too familiar with that. Unfortunately, you mentioned lack 606 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: of availability, Like what can that look like? Lack of availability? 607 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: Is that just we've mentioned earlier the work things. So 608 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: if someone's working all the time, is that considered lack 609 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: of availability or is it something different? Um? So did 610 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: I write this in that post something about like well 611 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,479 Speaker 1: you said, you said I either lack of of of 612 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: availability like that you would just overlook that. Yeah, oh yeah, 613 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: so that's used work. So someone who's just working I had. 614 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: I've had several, um coddictive relationships like that where my 615 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: partner was always working, traveling on the road. I dated 616 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 1: a baseball agent for a couple of years, talk about 617 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: you know, quote unquote working baseball games, hanging out with 618 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: the players, doing all the events, all that stuff. So 619 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: he was gone all the time and didn't matter how 620 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 1: much I complained, that was not going to change, you know. 621 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 1: So looking back at that is why was that okay 622 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: with me? That's not the kind of relationship I wanted, 623 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: But I was getting something out of it, you know, So, 624 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: um I stayed in it. And other lack of availability 625 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: maybe because of an addiction, maybe because they're having an affair, 626 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: maybe emotionally they just are not We're not on the 627 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: same page, not on the same wavelength, you know. Um 628 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 1: you let's even let's just say the most What I 629 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,280 Speaker 1: don't like the term healthiest. Let's the healthiest person ever? Um, 630 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 1: you know, the way you share, the way you open 631 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,800 Speaker 1: up to someone, the way that you're um available and 632 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 1: wanting to communicate with someone, but yet the other person 633 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,959 Speaker 1: does not do reciprocate or isn't able to do that. 634 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: They're not you know, on the same page. Um, I 635 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 1: say emotionally, because some people just aren't able to open 636 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: up that way, right. But we'll stay in that as 637 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: in love addiction, you know, we'll stay in it, and 638 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:23,840 Speaker 1: we'll just do all the sharing and all the opening 639 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 1: up and think we're being so vulnerable, right when really 640 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 1: this person isn't even really opening up or showing us anything. 641 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: So how vulnerable are we really being? If you know, 642 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 1: we don't we know it's not being received or reciprocated. 643 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: What do you mean? How vulnerable are we really being? 644 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: So this is another thing with because I used to 645 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 1: say this a lot in my love addiction, is like 646 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: I'm I'm being so authentic and so vulnerable when really 647 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: I actually was guarding myself quite a bit. You know, 648 00:35:53,160 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: there's a difference between um, being vulnerable and then being 649 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 1: open and having boundaries, right, Like vulnerability requires healthy boundaries 650 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 1: to otherwise you're just dumping a bunch of stuff and 651 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: you're jumping a lot of information. And so in my 652 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 1: love addiction, my partners, for the most part, we're not 653 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 1: seeing me. They weren't listening. They weren't um able to 654 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,799 Speaker 1: hear everything I was saying or showing up for me. 655 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:24,400 Speaker 1: So anything I was sharing with them or the vulnerability 656 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: was really knowing that they were not going to turn 657 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: around and say, hey, I see you, thank you for 658 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: sharing with me, thanks for being so available. So it's 659 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,759 Speaker 1: almost like safe, Does that make sense? Like they were 660 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: never going to turn around and say, whoa, I'm hearing you, 661 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,319 Speaker 1: I'm seeing you, I'm validating you, I love you, I'm 662 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,839 Speaker 1: here for you. They weren't. They always had their back 663 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 1: to me, and you know, in a way, and so 664 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:51,760 Speaker 1: being the vulnerable one, um which really wasn't that vulnerable, 665 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,239 Speaker 1: but feeling like I'm the one doing all this vulnerability 666 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 1: work over here when really they weren't even looking at me. 667 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: So how vulnerable was our really being? So? Really and 668 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: really there's no intimates seeing that it's just there. That's 669 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,320 Speaker 1: the protection you're talking about, is that it was safe 670 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,359 Speaker 1: in some ways because you didn't have to really think 671 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,839 Speaker 1: about how vulnerable that was, or because the intimacy wasn't 672 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:16,319 Speaker 1: actually happening right exactly. And now that's my challenge and 673 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,799 Speaker 1: recovery is you know that I'm in a long term 674 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 1: relationship where this person shows up for me all the time, 675 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 1: and so for me to be able to be vulnerable 676 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: and share what's really going on with me and know 677 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: that he's actually gonna hold space and here that's still 678 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 1: very scary for me to do. That is interesting. So 679 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 1: why would why would we disregard like, if you're looking 680 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: at someone and you're like, oh, they're not that available, 681 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:47,840 Speaker 1: would we it is this exactly what we were just 682 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,400 Speaker 1: talking about. Why would we disregard their lack of availability? 683 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 1: So the way it works oftentimes with this co addictive 684 00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:01,840 Speaker 1: dynamic is that both partners come together pretty quickly and 685 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:07,840 Speaker 1: they both appear very available, and there's typically possibly a 686 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 1: lack of boundaries, there's a lot of oversharing. Maybe not always, 687 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:15,720 Speaker 1: but the more love avoidant partner doesn't appear avoidant at first, 688 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,280 Speaker 1: they're available, and even the more love addicted partner doesn't 689 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,439 Speaker 1: really feel insecure or anxious initially, but then as time 690 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 1: goes on and the avoidant I always say, it starts 691 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 1: with the avoidant partner pulling away just a little and 692 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,479 Speaker 1: that will trigger that insecure attachment in the love attic, 693 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: and then the love attic starts to over function, and 694 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: a common message that might go through the love at 695 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:46,280 Speaker 1: its head is, oh shit, I've done something wrong because 696 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 1: suddenly they're behaving differently, you know, and it can be 697 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 1: really subtle, but they're just something's not quite right. You 698 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,839 Speaker 1: feel it because they're they're slower to text back like 699 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,320 Speaker 1: different yeah right, yeah, two. And if we shared it 700 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 1: with a friend, they might be like, what are you 701 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,840 Speaker 1: talking about? But we know because we're so hyper sensitive 702 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 1: to anyone's change in behavior because of our upbringing, we 703 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 1: can we're very sensitive to what someone's doing energetically and 704 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 1: when they're turning away from us, and so we go 705 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,839 Speaker 1: into over functioning. Okay, so what hap can I get 706 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 1: it back to where it was? And the more we 707 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:23,799 Speaker 1: over function, the more the avoidant will start to pull 708 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: away more and so by then the dynamic has happened, 709 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 1: as I call it, like the hook is in. And 710 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,319 Speaker 1: so we are just caught up in that cycle of 711 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: love addiction where we're ignoring the reality and we're staying 712 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: focused on We can even use the fantasy now of 713 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 1: getting it back to where it was when we first 714 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,759 Speaker 1: started dating, because it seems so perfect. Then if it 715 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 1: was just for two weeks, it doesn't make Yeah, that's 716 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 1: long tough. Um, And so then we'll just ignore the 717 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 1: reality of this person clearly is not available because we're 718 00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 1: already hooked in it. So so then on the flips 719 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,319 Speaker 1: out of that, Um, well, I said, why would you 720 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,320 Speaker 1: overlook on availability? But then like, are there people who 721 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 1: you mentioned the avoidant avoidant kind of relationship would they 722 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:16,959 Speaker 1: be very drawn to the unavailability as what they would 723 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:21,839 Speaker 1: want in a relationship? Say that again, like if you 724 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 1: are a love avoidant, which we haven't really talked about 725 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,400 Speaker 1: that much, but um, it's kind of the opposite side 726 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:33,360 Speaker 1: of this same attachment wound, right, Yeah, well you mentioned 727 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: the aveshment, So like if you were an avoidant, would 728 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,920 Speaker 1: you if you were drawn to another avoidant, would it 729 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,400 Speaker 1: feel really safe because you would know like that's or 730 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:45,799 Speaker 1: maybe like what you would even want in a relationship 731 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 1: because you don't want intensity, you don't want availability necessarily 732 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 1: could be Yeah, it could be Yeah, exactly Um, I 733 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 1: have never been the avoidant with another avoidant. I've always 734 00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 1: been the avoidant with another someone who is playing more 735 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,280 Speaker 1: love addict, been the love addict. Yeah, and I should 736 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 1: say that most based on my experience people I talk to, 737 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:07,719 Speaker 1: people I hear from people I work with. We can 738 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:11,280 Speaker 1: be both. We flip around depending on what gets triggered 739 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 1: in a relationship. We can be more avoidant, or we 740 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,200 Speaker 1: can be more insecure or more like a love addict. 741 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,239 Speaker 1: Is there any scenario where someone who has not done 742 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 1: the work around this sort of trauma would just get 743 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 1: in a secure relationship? Anyone has, Anyone has attachment trauma, independency. 744 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want to say that couldn't happen. Um, 745 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,719 Speaker 1: I think that we can feel secure. Yeah, And you're saying, 746 00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:43,560 Speaker 1: without doing the work, can that happen? I don't want 747 00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 1: to say that couldn't happen. I haven't seen it happen. 748 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,399 Speaker 1: That doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Well, I'm just sort 749 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,840 Speaker 1: of thinking, if you're inactive, if you're actively in your addiction, 750 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,200 Speaker 1: you're probably picking someone also active in theirs or that 751 00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:01,680 Speaker 1: has those wounds, right. That seems to be how it works. Yeah, 752 00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,840 Speaker 1: but I also go on the theory that most of 753 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 1: us are walking around with some sort of wounding. That's 754 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,720 Speaker 1: not saying that we're all walking around with some major 755 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,400 Speaker 1: trauma or anything, but I do think that we have 756 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 1: some sort of wounding, whether even if it wasn't family 757 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,319 Speaker 1: of origin wounding. Did it happen at school where you 758 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,919 Speaker 1: bullied someone who a teacher who just raided you every 759 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,080 Speaker 1: day and caused you to feel like shit about yourself? 760 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:30,080 Speaker 1: I mean, you know where did something oftentimes has happened 761 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:35,400 Speaker 1: along the lines that has caused us to um, you know, 762 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 1: caused us to doubt ourselves, to need to soothe ourselves 763 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:43,720 Speaker 1: to yeah, yeah, Okay, Well let's get back to the caption, 764 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,320 Speaker 1: because you say, uh, the other thing you used to 765 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,920 Speaker 1: say to yourself is once he does therapy, he won't 766 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,279 Speaker 1: act like that you haven't in clothes anymore, or once 767 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,480 Speaker 1: I get him to go to therapy, which I started 768 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:56,319 Speaker 1: dying laughing when I read that part, because that's like 769 00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,239 Speaker 1: the biggest thing I was like, when we go to 770 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:02,800 Speaker 1: therapy and I actually feel like I I get fearful 771 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 1: of saying my truth sometimes and I want the therapist 772 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,240 Speaker 1: to communicate it for me. I'm like, I have knowledge 773 00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,440 Speaker 1: that this is messed up somehow, but I'm so fearful 774 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:17,080 Speaker 1: of you know, intimacy with my partner or bringing that 775 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:19,239 Speaker 1: up or having I don't I don't really know what 776 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,239 Speaker 1: my block always is, but sometimes it can feel really hard. 777 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,960 Speaker 1: And so I convinced myself, oh, we need therapy. But 778 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,600 Speaker 1: I'm like, fingers crossed that the therapist is going to 779 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,720 Speaker 1: say what I think they should say to my partner 780 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,680 Speaker 1: so that my partner can get fixed. Yeah, well there's 781 00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:41,319 Speaker 1: your there's your bunch of red flags right there, right there, 782 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,399 Speaker 1: okay for you? Yeah, yeah, because you know, if we're 783 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:47,359 Speaker 1: not able, and this is just the rule of them. 784 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,839 Speaker 1: If we're not able to be ourselves and speak up 785 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,240 Speaker 1: in a relationship, big problems. You know, it's a big problem. 786 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 1: We have to be able to communicate and be ourselves. 787 00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:58,440 Speaker 1: And I would guess that part of the reason you 788 00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,680 Speaker 1: weren't comfortable bringing some thing up yourself is because what 789 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:06,560 Speaker 1: if that led to disconnection? Right? And so all we 790 00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:10,279 Speaker 1: do in our love addiction is avoid disconnection. That's all. 791 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:14,640 Speaker 1: We're just trying so hard to avoid disconnection. Yeah, I've 792 00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:18,440 Speaker 1: never had that said so simply, but that is exactly right, 793 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,480 Speaker 1: because the second you feel the disconnection, just like what 794 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:23,359 Speaker 1: you were just talking about, even if it's the slow 795 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:28,279 Speaker 1: text or whatever, the anxiety picks up. Yeah. Interesting, What 796 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:30,480 Speaker 1: about if only he read the books I gave him, 797 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:33,160 Speaker 1: he would be a better partner. My thing is h 798 00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:39,080 Speaker 1: I send podcasts and articles I read about relationships. Yeah, 799 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:45,160 Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, I've I've done that a lot. I mean, 800 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:47,880 Speaker 1: but I can't even count the books I've given you 801 00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,080 Speaker 1: to people. But four years of addictive relationship. I gave 802 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,759 Speaker 1: that that guy a book on Buddhism and how Buddhism 803 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,480 Speaker 1: will help with you know, everything in life. And I 804 00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:00,840 Speaker 1: gave him a book and then I gave it to 805 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,719 Speaker 1: him again because he told me he lost it. That's 806 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:07,319 Speaker 1: that's he probably throw it away. And you're like, you're like, 807 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,360 Speaker 1: oh you lost it? I got it like, oh I 808 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:12,239 Speaker 1: moved and I must have lost it in the move. 809 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,879 Speaker 1: And I was like, oh get you Like He's like, oh, 810 00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:19,280 Speaker 1: Gie thinks. So yeah, I loved There was a podcast 811 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,440 Speaker 1: of yours I was listening to and you said something 812 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:23,400 Speaker 1: about when you started dating this guy and he had 813 00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,400 Speaker 1: all these empty bookshelves and they're like, oh, he just 814 00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,160 Speaker 1: hasn't unpacked yet. He just moved. He hasn't unpacked yet, 815 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,560 Speaker 1: And you were like, where's your books? And he says 816 00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,360 Speaker 1: to you up books? So why would anyone keep books? 817 00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,520 Speaker 1: Like he didn't even like to read. Get that? And 818 00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:39,359 Speaker 1: that was a huge part of your life of what 819 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:41,480 Speaker 1: you want in your relationships, and yet you still got 820 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:43,759 Speaker 1: in the relationship. But it just goes to show how 821 00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:48,160 Speaker 1: we just don't listen sometimes to what they're actually saying, 822 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:55,319 Speaker 1: like the Buddhism books. That's hilarious. But maybe, yeah, if 823 00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,080 Speaker 1: only he didn't drink so much, then things between us 824 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:02,880 Speaker 1: would be better. Maybe I can get him to quit. Um, 825 00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:06,040 Speaker 1: this is drinking. As someone told me once that it 826 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:10,560 Speaker 1: was a barrier that some of us use to continue 827 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:15,520 Speaker 1: in emotional unavailability, like or it's a it's a way 828 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 1: to medicate to where you don't have to be completely 829 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,960 Speaker 1: vulnerable or emotionally available. Is that true? Yeah, I mean 830 00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:26,000 Speaker 1: that's that's one way to say it, for sure. I 831 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,200 Speaker 1: mean I used to think that when we drank together, 832 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,000 Speaker 1: especially this one partner I'm talking about, um, that we 833 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,920 Speaker 1: got closer, that that was when we could have intimacy. 834 00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,120 Speaker 1: And then when I got sober, I realized that was 835 00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:40,799 Speaker 1: never That's not intimacy, That wasn't me being honest about 836 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:47,600 Speaker 1: who I am, you know, or authentic, um, because authentic 837 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,880 Speaker 1: and honest would be to say, I'm really struggling this 838 00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:53,960 Speaker 1: in this relationship. I feel like you don't love me, 839 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:55,279 Speaker 1: and I don't know if it's gonna work, and I'm 840 00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,880 Speaker 1: really scared. You know, that was never said. It was 841 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,280 Speaker 1: just let me tell you all my try marama and 842 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:03,839 Speaker 1: let me Yeah, let me overshare with you, and then 843 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,120 Speaker 1: you'll overshare with me and we're drinking and it's really 844 00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:10,480 Speaker 1: great and so I feel so connected. Yeah, that's interesting, 845 00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:12,759 Speaker 1: But then the next day we'd be right back to 846 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:18,400 Speaker 1: where we were, you know, because it wasn't real connection. 847 00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:20,880 Speaker 1: It's a false sense of connection. But that would be 848 00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:25,400 Speaker 1: soothing in the moment for a person with attachment winding. 849 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:31,319 Speaker 1: Oh yes, yeah, and alcohol definitely soothed for me, definitely. Uh. 850 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,399 Speaker 1: You say, he has a lot of trauma, so once 851 00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:37,440 Speaker 1: he works that out, things will be quote unquote better. Yeah, 852 00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,520 Speaker 1: so my reaction to reading this, but like, we does 853 00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:43,560 Speaker 1: have a lot of trauma, so it would be better. 854 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,800 Speaker 1: So obviously there's another buquet for you. But um, something 855 00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:50,960 Speaker 1: else my therapist not always work on is you know, 856 00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:55,600 Speaker 1: I'm really drawn to what she describes as wounded men 857 00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:58,960 Speaker 1: or but they you know, they have huge hearts, they're 858 00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:02,120 Speaker 1: very charismatic. It doesn't mean like they're bad people by 859 00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:05,360 Speaker 1: any means. It just means there's wounding there. And I 860 00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,160 Speaker 1: write and like, oh, I just love that. It just 861 00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:11,560 Speaker 1: sucks me right in. Um. And so it was kind 862 00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:13,040 Speaker 1: of what I was saying to you earlier. I get 863 00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:16,520 Speaker 1: in the relationship and go, oh, they have the same 864 00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:19,799 Speaker 1: wounding as me even sometimes or they have wounding too, 865 00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:22,360 Speaker 1: and so we kind of can bond over that or something. 866 00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,080 Speaker 1: It's like this, you know, magnets to each other. And 867 00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,600 Speaker 1: then I go, Okay, well, I'm doing all this work 868 00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:29,360 Speaker 1: and I want to go to these meetings or I 869 00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,560 Speaker 1: want to go to this therapist, and I want to 870 00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:33,719 Speaker 1: read this book and I want to listen to this podcast. 871 00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:35,840 Speaker 1: So you probably do too, right, And so I'm like 872 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,000 Speaker 1: sitting all this stuff. But they don't want to actually 873 00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,480 Speaker 1: do that. They don't care, they're not interested in that. 874 00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:42,640 Speaker 1: They don't want to dive into their childhood and look 875 00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:44,200 Speaker 1: at why they do the way, you know, things the 876 00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:48,719 Speaker 1: way they do. UM. So I guess my question, and 877 00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:52,880 Speaker 1: that is is that part of like a fantasy or um, 878 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,960 Speaker 1: what are ways that we could actually look at the 879 00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,959 Speaker 1: relationship or the person that you're meeting, not go into 880 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:05,480 Speaker 1: that place of like putting whatever you think, um, the 881 00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:08,279 Speaker 1: right thing to do would be onto them when you're 882 00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:12,080 Speaker 1: drawn to that kind of dynamic. So that's where boundary 883 00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:16,080 Speaker 1: work comes in. I mean boundaries, I mean just boundaries, boundaries, 884 00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,239 Speaker 1: boundaries all the time. And so to know, again, if 885 00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:21,319 Speaker 1: you use that hula hoop analogy and you really get 886 00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:24,480 Speaker 1: good with okay, what's mine? You know what can I control? 887 00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,120 Speaker 1: I control myself. I control if I go to therapy, 888 00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:28,560 Speaker 1: or if I read this book or if I have 889 00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:31,040 Speaker 1: this podcast. I can invite someone to do it, but 890 00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,319 Speaker 1: I cannot expect someone or force them to do it. 891 00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:36,000 Speaker 1: Like that's in their hula hoop. They My choices are 892 00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:38,960 Speaker 1: in my hula hoop. Their choices and beliefs and behaviors 893 00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,319 Speaker 1: are in their hula hoop. Right, And so we can 894 00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,320 Speaker 1: do that and you know they focused on ourselves. You 895 00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:46,040 Speaker 1: can still share, like I really, what do you think 896 00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:47,880 Speaker 1: about this? You know, I like this book? What do 897 00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:49,320 Speaker 1: you think about it? And they're like I'm not interested 898 00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:53,080 Speaker 1: in it. Okay, that's information. That's information. They're not interested 899 00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:54,840 Speaker 1: in the same things I am. Does that mean that 900 00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:58,440 Speaker 1: y'all can't have a healthy relationship? Not not necessarily. But 901 00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:02,600 Speaker 1: if you want to be with someone who is interested in, um, 902 00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:04,600 Speaker 1: working on things the way that you work on things, 903 00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:07,040 Speaker 1: or at least similarly or at least is working on 904 00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,960 Speaker 1: stuff you know, then you got to pay attention to that. 905 00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:13,759 Speaker 1: It's also about identifying maybe what you want out of 906 00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,400 Speaker 1: a partnership or relationship ahead of the time, because if 907 00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:19,759 Speaker 1: you don't know, then you're just walking and blindly thinking 908 00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:24,920 Speaker 1: everyone wants the same things as you. That's true. Yeah, interesting, Um, 909 00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:26,680 Speaker 1: it's kind of reminded me of that. I think it's 910 00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:28,920 Speaker 1: a Maya Angelo quote where she says, when someone shows 911 00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,920 Speaker 1: you who you are, believe them. Yeah. Is that how 912 00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:37,640 Speaker 1: it goes when someone When someone shows you who they are, 913 00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:41,080 Speaker 1: believe them. Yes, that's it's so good. So it's I mean, 914 00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:44,719 Speaker 1: so pay attention. But what about I think my struggle 915 00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,560 Speaker 1: is um and maybe this is because I don't pay 916 00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:51,839 Speaker 1: attention enough at the beginning of any sort of relationship, 917 00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:56,600 Speaker 1: But accepting who someone is sometimes can be very painful. Right, like, 918 00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,879 Speaker 1: because if you make up who they should be, then 919 00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:02,680 Speaker 1: having to accept who they are cauld cause you pain. 920 00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:05,200 Speaker 1: So what can you do because I mean, I'm pain averse. 921 00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:06,799 Speaker 1: I don't I don't want any pain. I don't want 922 00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:08,520 Speaker 1: any more pain. I've had enough pain in my life. 923 00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:10,160 Speaker 1: So I do a lot of things to try to 924 00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:12,480 Speaker 1: avoid pain, and I'm trying to get more comfortable with that. 925 00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:16,359 Speaker 1: But um, how can we get past that part of this? 926 00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:21,600 Speaker 1: So I guess the answer would depend on where you 927 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:25,319 Speaker 1: are in a relationship. You know, Um, if I use 928 00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:27,719 Speaker 1: my four year co addictive relationship, by the end of 929 00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:30,920 Speaker 1: four years, it was just how many more times are 930 00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:33,600 Speaker 1: we gonna break up? And you know, I had a 931 00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,400 Speaker 1: really major aha moment where I caught myself trying to 932 00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:39,120 Speaker 1: get him to see something my way, and it just 933 00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:42,399 Speaker 1: I was like a message from the sky and that said, 934 00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,880 Speaker 1: you're being codependent right now, Jodie. This is codependence. This 935 00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:47,719 Speaker 1: is a sign of codependence. And it just hit me 936 00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:50,640 Speaker 1: and I realized I've been doing it for four years 937 00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:53,719 Speaker 1: and so you have to say, Okay, it's painful to 938 00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:55,839 Speaker 1: say this is not ever going to be the way 939 00:51:55,880 --> 00:52:00,120 Speaker 1: I want it to be. But see, we avoid that disconnection, right, 940 00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:04,200 Speaker 1: Like I said, But the whole time that we are 941 00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:08,239 Speaker 1: in the relationship, in that co adictive relationship and we're 942 00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:13,120 Speaker 1: over functioning, we are trying to avoid pain, and meanwhile 943 00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:16,400 Speaker 1: we are in pain. That's the thing. And so you 944 00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:20,000 Speaker 1: have to the the thing we're avoiding that we think 945 00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,200 Speaker 1: we can't tolerate is actually where growth is going to happen. 946 00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:27,399 Speaker 1: That's our opportunity, that's where we grow. So you could 947 00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:31,000 Speaker 1: stay in this cycle in pain trying to avoid pain, 948 00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:33,680 Speaker 1: you know, you're staying in it with the pain you 949 00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,400 Speaker 1: know that you think you can control, but then avoiding 950 00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:39,160 Speaker 1: the pain of disconnection, when really, if you're not gonna die, 951 00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:43,480 Speaker 1: you're gonna survive it. Yeah, yeah, that's what I was. 952 00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:47,160 Speaker 1: I was curious if there's someone listening, um, because you know, 953 00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:49,480 Speaker 1: sometimes I feel like especially that's kind of why I 954 00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:51,880 Speaker 1: think we both said we don't like the term love addict. 955 00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:57,360 Speaker 1: It feels so harsh and hard. Um, what would you 956 00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:00,560 Speaker 1: say to someone who's Listening's maybe like yeah, like they're 957 00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:04,399 Speaker 1: dating and it's they're identifying. Oh, maybe this is how 958 00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:07,040 Speaker 1: my past relationships have been. How do you find the 959 00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:11,160 Speaker 1: hope in that? Like? Where is the hope in this dynamic. 960 00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:17,719 Speaker 1: So something I hear from clients when they come to me, 961 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:21,040 Speaker 1: and I hear this often and I can relate, but 962 00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:25,200 Speaker 1: it's I've wasted so much time. I've wasted so much 963 00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:28,279 Speaker 1: of my life and these dysfunctional relationships. I've wasted time 964 00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:30,720 Speaker 1: with this person or that person or all these people. 965 00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:34,279 Speaker 1: And the thing is, if nothing is wasted. So that's 966 00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:37,759 Speaker 1: the hope. Everything that has happened has gotten you where 967 00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:42,880 Speaker 1: you are and if you know it. I think to 968 00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,839 Speaker 1: look at if we can look at that and have 969 00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:49,400 Speaker 1: that awareness and realize, Okay, I need to make a change. 970 00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:52,200 Speaker 1: Change is possible. We can get into recovery. We can 971 00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:55,960 Speaker 1: you know, um start working on codependence and there's a 972 00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:59,239 Speaker 1: ton of hope once you're in recovery. I mean, the 973 00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:03,600 Speaker 1: whole world sends up. Yeah, where do people go to 974 00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:06,759 Speaker 1: find that? Like the recovery stuff, because I think that's 975 00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:09,560 Speaker 1: an overwhelming piece too. If you don't know anything about 976 00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:13,320 Speaker 1: any sort of addiction stuff, or you're like, oh, you 977 00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:18,600 Speaker 1: see a a on TV in like a movie, right, Yeah, 978 00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:23,719 Speaker 1: I always recommend start with Facing Love Addiction by P. A. 979 00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:27,840 Speaker 1: Melody that book. Okay, I credit that. I believe a 980 00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:30,680 Speaker 1: Melodies work saved my life. I really do believe that. 981 00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:34,719 Speaker 1: Not only that, but it totally changed the work I 982 00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:36,839 Speaker 1: do as a therapist. I had no idea. So if 983 00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:38,640 Speaker 1: I look back, I didn't get into recovering until I 984 00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:42,359 Speaker 1: was forty six and I'm fifty one now I'm five 985 00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:46,799 Speaker 1: years in discoverer. Actually probably right now and um, I 986 00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:49,480 Speaker 1: would have never known, you know, at forty six with 987 00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:53,000 Speaker 1: the next five years could look like. And um, but 988 00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:55,960 Speaker 1: so I credit p A Melody with where I am 989 00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:58,640 Speaker 1: right now. But Facing Love Addiction is one of her books. 990 00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:01,520 Speaker 1: I love it. Uh. Safe in Codependence is another one. 991 00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:08,279 Speaker 1: And um, if you can, if anyone is looking for 992 00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:13,279 Speaker 1: a therapist who has trained with Pia Melody, Um there is. 993 00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:16,879 Speaker 1: You can call the Meadows, which is her facility out 994 00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:21,399 Speaker 1: in Wickenburg, Arizona, and you call the intake line, let 995 00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:24,800 Speaker 1: them know you're looking for a Meadows trained therapist and 996 00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:27,120 Speaker 1: tell them where you're located, and they will give you 997 00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:30,400 Speaker 1: a list of therapists in your area who specialize in 998 00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:35,040 Speaker 1: love addiction and attached with trauma and codependence, which is yeah. 999 00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:37,920 Speaker 1: So it really goes back to again, Um, you know 1000 00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:40,759 Speaker 1: that cheesy thing people always say, where it's like you 1001 00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:43,279 Speaker 1: really have to love yourself first before you can love 1002 00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:45,640 Speaker 1: someone else. That I sort of hate that statement, but 1003 00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:49,359 Speaker 1: it's sort of like you really do have to know 1004 00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:51,759 Speaker 1: yourself first, and and I do think you have to 1005 00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:55,040 Speaker 1: love yourself. But maybe, as I was saying to you, 1006 00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:56,880 Speaker 1: like how do we accept other people for who they 1007 00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:59,480 Speaker 1: really are? But like I'm asking myself, do I accept 1008 00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:03,080 Speaker 1: myself or who are really and so doing that work 1009 00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:08,439 Speaker 1: maybe before you start diving into dating and looking at 1010 00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:11,719 Speaker 1: a partner to make your life better and anything like that, like, 1011 00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:14,239 Speaker 1: because I think that's where if we're not doing that 1012 00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:19,680 Speaker 1: work first, we're going to keep this cycle going. Yeah, exactly. Um, 1013 00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:21,200 Speaker 1: I don't like that term either. You've got to love 1014 00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:23,120 Speaker 1: yourself before we can love anybody else because the thing 1015 00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:27,840 Speaker 1: about attachment trauma is loving yourself is very challenging because 1016 00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:30,520 Speaker 1: we struggle with self esteem and self worth issues and 1017 00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:35,919 Speaker 1: so that's part of the recovery work is doing um 1018 00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:38,360 Speaker 1: which is a whole another podcast episode, but it's about, 1019 00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,359 Speaker 1: you know, carried shame. We struggle with carried shame which 1020 00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:44,279 Speaker 1: causes us to struggle with self worth. So it's not 1021 00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:45,920 Speaker 1: as easy as hey, I'm letna go out there and 1022 00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:48,120 Speaker 1: love myself. Now, you know, there's a whole lot of 1023 00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:52,080 Speaker 1: um old messaging and baggage that we carry around that's 1024 00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:54,239 Speaker 1: really heavy that we have to clear out before we 1025 00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:59,720 Speaker 1: can really um, get to that point where we really 1026 00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:01,680 Speaker 1: know we are and then we love ourselves. But also 1027 00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:04,760 Speaker 1: you just said about accepting yourself before you can accept others. 1028 00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:08,520 Speaker 1: It's also self compassion is a big part of recovery, 1029 00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:13,480 Speaker 1: and so I also recommend Dr Kristen Neth's work. She 1030 00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:16,680 Speaker 1: wrote the book Self Compassion and she has a new 1031 00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:21,880 Speaker 1: book called Radical Self Compassion and it's a mindfulness you know, 1032 00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:26,800 Speaker 1: self compassion is mindfulness exercise. UM. And if you can 1033 00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:30,600 Speaker 1: start a self compassion practice, things will start to shift 1034 00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:34,440 Speaker 1: because it literally changes the brain and UM, then you 1035 00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:37,919 Speaker 1: can start having compassion for yourself. And again I would 1036 00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:41,880 Speaker 1: like to say, the world will start opening up. UM. 1037 00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:47,400 Speaker 1: Where can people find you? Well? My practices in Austin 1038 00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:53,400 Speaker 1: and I UM, actually I'm moving away from individual work, 1039 00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:58,520 Speaker 1: but I am working toward offering intensives here in Austin, 1040 00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:01,520 Speaker 1: so weakened intensive. I do you believe one on one 1041 00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:04,440 Speaker 1: therapy weekly, that's great, UM, but I also think that 1042 00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:07,760 Speaker 1: intensive work, especially when you're doing the love addiction, codependence 1043 00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:12,440 Speaker 1: and family of origin trauma intensive can intensive work can 1044 00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:16,880 Speaker 1: take therapy to a whole another level. Yeah. Um So 1045 00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:20,720 Speaker 1: I'm also on Instagram at Jody White LPC. I have 1046 00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:24,480 Speaker 1: the podcast profile which is at Journals of a Love Addict. 1047 00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:27,520 Speaker 1: And I think that's all I'm doing right now. Okay, 1048 00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:30,560 Speaker 1: so Jody is j O D I. I just want 1049 00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:32,480 Speaker 1: to point that out to people. Also, what can we 1050 00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:34,400 Speaker 1: look forward to on the podcast? I'm always like, what's 1051 00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:36,360 Speaker 1: going to come out next? What's the next? I know, 1052 00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:41,600 Speaker 1: I know, I have a couple of things planned. Um 1053 00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:44,960 Speaker 1: So one of the things I have in mind is 1054 00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:48,400 Speaker 1: that you know, my partner and I we've been together 1055 00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:53,600 Speaker 1: let's see vibes five over five five years. Yeah. Our 1056 00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:56,120 Speaker 1: relationship actually is the one. We broke up after a 1057 00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:58,160 Speaker 1: few months of being together and that is what sent 1058 00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:03,000 Speaker 1: me into recovery. And then we took time apart and 1059 00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:05,240 Speaker 1: we did no contact. I had no plans of getting 1060 00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:07,640 Speaker 1: back together with him, and yet we got back together 1061 00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:10,720 Speaker 1: about six months after we broke up, and um, he 1062 00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:13,959 Speaker 1: has been pivotal in my recovery. He has also done 1063 00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:16,360 Speaker 1: his own work, and so I have an idea to 1064 00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:20,000 Speaker 1: have him on the podcast and talk about his perspective 1065 00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:23,240 Speaker 1: of how at our time of breakup he was more 1066 00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:26,040 Speaker 1: love avoidant and what he was going through and then 1067 00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:28,760 Speaker 1: what I was going through and my love addiction and 1068 00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:32,560 Speaker 1: how that how that has all, um, what's happened since then. 1069 00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:35,280 Speaker 1: So that's one of my ideas that were I love 1070 00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:40,600 Speaker 1: that I'm looking were gonna say, I do think that 1071 00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:44,200 Speaker 1: we um you said, that's earlier that someone who is 1072 00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:47,280 Speaker 1: more love avoidant. It's we have a tendency to label 1073 00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:51,320 Speaker 1: them as bad people or bad partners or narcissists or something, 1074 00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:56,440 Speaker 1: and that's not the case. Everyone's we're all just scared. Yeah, yeah, 1075 00:59:56,560 --> 00:59:59,160 Speaker 1: I think that's right. And I think that that it 1076 00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:01,680 Speaker 1: comes again with like that you have the self compassion 1077 01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:05,240 Speaker 1: piece for when you're watching yourself struggle, it's like kind 1078 01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:07,360 Speaker 1: of addressing it. Not in this way of the shame 1079 01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:09,520 Speaker 1: of like, oh my god, you're so messed up, but 1080 01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:11,280 Speaker 1: in this way I'm like, Wow, what's really going on? 1081 01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:14,280 Speaker 1: And when you can look at someone else, if they're 1082 01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:16,440 Speaker 1: doing maybe their work too, so that you're not carrying 1083 01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:19,560 Speaker 1: it for them, but they you can identify it as that. 1084 01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:21,560 Speaker 1: You can also have the compassion for them of like 1085 01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:24,760 Speaker 1: oh look at they're just scared or you know any 1086 01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:29,400 Speaker 1: interesting Yeah, exactly interesting. Well, um, keep you posted on 1087 01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:34,840 Speaker 1: the intensive um and also, like you guys, go check 1088 01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:38,360 Speaker 1: out Jody. Her instagram is awesome even if you don't 1089 01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:41,600 Speaker 1: fully identify with the love addiction piece, I think there's 1090 01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:44,080 Speaker 1: a lot of good relationship nuggets in there and just 1091 01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:46,640 Speaker 1: the dynamics of how to be in touch with yourself 1092 01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:48,800 Speaker 1: and how you're dealing with their relationship as well. So 1093 01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:52,160 Speaker 1: check her out on Instagram. It's at Jody White LPC. 1094 01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:54,600 Speaker 1: Journals of a Love Addict is the podcast. You can 1095 01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:56,800 Speaker 1: find it anywhere you listen to podcast and Jody, thank 1096 01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,480 Speaker 1: you so much for being here again, Thanks for having me, 1097 01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:03,800 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening to The Velvet's Edge 1098 01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:06,960 Speaker 1: podcast with Kelly Henderson, where we believe everyone has a 1099 01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:10,400 Speaker 1: little velvet and a little edge. Subscribe for more conversations 1100 01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:14,720 Speaker 1: on life, style, beauty, and relationships. Search Velvet's Edge wherever 1101 01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:15,800 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.