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Speaker 1: This episode of Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan was

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Speaker 1: recorded in front of a live audience at crime Con London,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 2: Quality Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Welcome everybody, it's good

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Speaker 2: to see you all, and welcome to crime Con UK

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and it's great

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Speaker 2: to be here. Listen before we go too far into this,

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Speaker 2: as you can tell aim from around these parts, so

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Speaker 2: bear with me. I've got a question for you real quick.

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Speaker 2: I'm confused, and you know I'm an American, so I

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Speaker 2: stay kind of confused many times. But with that, I'm

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Speaker 2: confused about the language. I'm going to be using a

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Speaker 2: word today that for many I understand here in the

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Speaker 2: UK in particular, is kind of considered the naughty word.

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Speaker 2: So I just want to make sure that I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to get in trouble. I don't want you to

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Speaker 2: call my mama and wind up having to get in

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Speaker 2: my mouth washed out. So and that word is bloody.

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Speaker 2: So I don't know how you come down on that issue,

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Speaker 2: but that is an issue, and I know it's generational

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Speaker 2: perhaps and that some people regard it as a bad word.

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Speaker 2: But today we're going to talk about bloody. We're going

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Speaker 2: to talk about blood, and we're going to talk about

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Speaker 2: blood deposition. And for me, it is one of those

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Speaker 2: things in the world of forensic science that gives us

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Speaker 2: evidence that there was a life that had in the

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Speaker 2: way and addition, in addition to that, the dynamics of

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Speaker 2: what went on in the midst during the throes of death.

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Speaker 2: So welcome aboard. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.

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Speaker 2: I'd like to welcome a very very distinguished individual with

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Speaker 2: us today, Millington Joe. I got to tell you we've

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Speaker 2: only gotten to know one another over the last I

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Speaker 2: guess probably a month and a half through text and

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Speaker 2: through emails. Let me tell you how generous she is.

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Speaker 2: I'm a forensics professor in the US, and I'm interested

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Speaker 2: with my UNI of trying to do exchange programs here

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Speaker 2: in the UK because I think that, in my estimation,

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Speaker 2: you guys do it better than anybody else in the world,

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Speaker 2: and I want our kids to be exposed to practice.

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Speaker 2: And because of that, Joe said, I will set you

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Speaker 2: up and she has put me in contact with I

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Speaker 2: think a total of five universities. So I've spent quite

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Speaker 2: a bit of time traveling about the country. I've been

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Speaker 2: here for a week thus far, still have a few

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Speaker 2: more days left. Yesterday I was actually a King University

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Speaker 2: and that one of your colleagues there, And interestingly enough,

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Speaker 2: they have a freestanding crime scene house there and they've

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Speaker 2: already got it and prepped for her to come and

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Speaker 2: teach bloodstained pattern analysis there. And I think she spends

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Speaker 2: quite a bit of time there, don't you, Joe. I do.

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Speaker 1: Hi? Hi everyone, So I deliver a bloodstained patent training

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Speaker 1: to this at Euston University, and they specially kit out

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Speaker 1: one of the rooms white, covering it in white paper

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Speaker 1: before I turn up, so that when we spray the

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Speaker 1: rooms of blood, it looks pretty impressive. But I'm not Dexter,

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Speaker 1: So please don't you don't get worried about the fact

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Speaker 1: that I have to cover everything with plastic before.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if we have

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Speaker 2: that in common. I have people that will that will

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Speaker 2: approach me when they find out that I'm a forensic

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Speaker 2: scientist and they'll say, oh, you're just like Dexter. No,

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Speaker 2: I can assure you I'm not a serial killer. I've

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Speaker 2: worked on serial homicides, but I'm no serial killer. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's isn't that interesting Because the media, I think has

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Speaker 2: greatly influenced, particularly entertainment media, about their perception the general

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Speaker 2: public's perception of what it is that we do. And

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Speaker 2: I think for me at least, one of the kind

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Speaker 2: of insulting bits to this is that they will take

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Speaker 2: a fictionalized program and they will take one individual and

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Speaker 2: have them doing a job or have them doing multiple jobs,

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Speaker 2: where this individual is an expert in multiple fields. And

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Speaker 2: for us, we have talked about this earlier, I had

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Speaker 2: to do kind of a even after having a graduate

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Speaker 2: degree in forensic science, I had to do an apprenticeship

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Speaker 2: that lasted a protracted period of time. Would you say

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Speaker 2: that we are, in many ways like old fashioned crafts

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Speaker 2: people where a meal write or a cooper or even

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Speaker 2: a cobbler, where you have to demonstrate your effectiveness, you

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Speaker 2: have that encounter in your professional development. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've been doing this very well as a

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Speaker 1: forensic scientist. I've been doing forensic science for about thirty years,

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Speaker 1: and I always say that I'm only here because of

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Speaker 1: the people who taught me what to do, so, I

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Speaker 1: mean it's like standing on the shoulders of giants, right.

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Speaker 1: I have met some amazing and incredible forensic scientists throughout

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Speaker 1: my career, and I'm kind of a product of the

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Speaker 1: so you almost certainly don't just kind of get the

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Speaker 1: job on day one and you're out there doing it

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Speaker 1: on your own. You're very much supported through it. But

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Speaker 1: just on the TV program stuff, I want to say

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Speaker 1: that you are never going to get any criticism from

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Speaker 1: me for the way that forensic science is depicted on

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Speaker 1: the telling because I think that anything that gives accessibility

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Speaker 1: to the work that the professionals in our industry do

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Speaker 1: is a really important thing. And my journey started out

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Speaker 1: with a TV program. So I watched in Delible Evidence,

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Speaker 1: which everybody in the room is thinking, what the heck

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Speaker 1: is that, But it was in the eighties and I

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Speaker 1: watched it with my mom and it was about how

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Speaker 1: forensic science can solve crimes. And I said to my

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Speaker 1: mom at that moment, that is what I want to do.

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Speaker 1: And my entire educational journey was with the view of

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Speaker 1: becoming a forensic scientist. So people that watch Silent Witness,

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Speaker 1: people that watch CSI, people that watch dexter and if

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Speaker 1: they are kind of infected with that same bug, then

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Speaker 1: I am all for that and I will support them

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Speaker 1: every set of the way.

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Speaker 2: I have a question for you, Joe, were you a

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Speaker 2: nosy child?

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Speaker 1: How do you mean no? I really don't know how

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Speaker 1: to Did.

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Speaker 2: You want to peek behind the curtain? Because I have

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Speaker 2: to tell you, In forensics and investigations, I think some

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Speaker 2: of the best investigators are those of us that are

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Speaker 2: predisposed of seeing those things that other people might not

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Speaker 2: necessarily see and being able to evaluate what we've seen

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Speaker 2: and try to present that to the public at large.

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Speaker 2: I think that extends probably in the testimonial sense when

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Speaker 2: you're providing testimony, because you are a court qualified expert

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Speaker 2: and literally Joe is at the top of her game

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Speaker 2: in what she does here in the UK. She's recognized

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Speaker 2: in the UK, and I would say internationally as the

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Speaker 2: person that the go to person that you would want

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Speaker 2: to do bloodstain pattern analysis. So for you, I think

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Speaker 2: it's really difficult for someone that you're impaneled on a

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Speaker 2: jury to be able to understand those things that you've

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Speaker 2: and I'm going to this is a big grotesque to

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Speaker 2: forgive me, but when you've gone on to a scene,

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Speaker 2: how do you translate those things, the sites, the smells,

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Speaker 2: the ambient environmental temperature. How can you integrate that into

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Speaker 2: testimony and literally transport that jury that is so abstracted

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Speaker 2: from everything else and make it real for them.

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Speaker 1: Well, I guess there are two things to say to that.

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Speaker 1: One is that whenever you enter this industry, nobody ever

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Speaker 1: sits you down and says you are going to be

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Speaker 1: exposed to some of the most horrific and awful things

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Speaker 1: in the line of your work and you're just going

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Speaker 1: to have to get over that. So that's one thing.

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Speaker 1: But the second thing is that because my specialism is

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Speaker 1: woodstained at analysis specifically and looking at the narrative that

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Speaker 1: the blood can give to a scene, the way that

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Speaker 1: it can tell a story about people's last movements and

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Speaker 1: moments in life, then I can't avoid going to crime

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Speaker 1: scenes where there are or have been horrific injuries, people

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Speaker 1: have died, and the joy of the job for me

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Speaker 1: is looking at that horrific landscape and be able to

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Speaker 1: spot something within it that could potentially help investigators work

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Speaker 1: out what happened here on and did something really of

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Speaker 1: So as an example, you might have someone with really

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Speaker 1: urific injuries and the blood is around the space. But

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Speaker 1: if the offender has intied themselves and he's dripping blood

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Speaker 1: throughout that space through the context of their actions, that

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Speaker 1: dripped blood is actually the thing that you want to

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Speaker 1: focus in on and sample it, get DNA from it,

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Speaker 1: try and understand who else was here, because the other

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Speaker 1: narrative is obviously contextual, but it doesn't tell you who

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Speaker 1: was in this space at the time of death. And

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Speaker 1: that is see that blood snake. That analysis can be

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Speaker 1: give to an investigation.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the toughest parts of your profession

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Speaker 2: is that when you arrive at the scene, let's just

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Speaker 2: say it is some horrific homicide, you're not always going

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Speaker 2: to have the decedent at the scene. They may have

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Speaker 2: been in what we refer to as the perry mortem state,

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Speaker 2: where in they're headed toward the post mortem state where

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Speaker 2: they're taking their last breasts. They're going to be whisked

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Speaker 2: away to the hospital, and you don't have that concentric

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Speaker 2: advantage of having the body there and everything else extends

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Speaker 2: out from it. You might have a big blank space

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Speaker 2: where they were, and then you have this deposition of blood,

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Speaker 2: and that makes it quite difficult, doesn't.

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Speaker 1: That makes a huge difference because anybody that's done forensics

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Speaker 1: one oh one knows that the body is a crisis.

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Speaker 1: So as soon as you take that body away from

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Speaker 1: that space, then you're losing a huge amount of information

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Speaker 1: and everything around distribution pattern. You have to have context.

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Speaker 1: So if I take a photo prap, that would stain

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Speaker 1: ensure it to my grandma because you going to be like,

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Speaker 1: what the heck's that? Yeah, it doesn't have that context.

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Speaker 1: If you walk into a room and say, look at

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Speaker 1: that woodstream and where it seems in that space, suddenly

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Speaker 1: it enlivens everything. So it gives you that context so

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Speaker 1: that you can start to evaluate it much more meaningfully

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Speaker 1: in your context to view than.

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Speaker 2: Sit in you can. There's a quote that I hung

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Speaker 2: onto through my career and many of you don't know

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Speaker 2: this that are not familiar with my background, but I

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Speaker 2: was you guys don't actually have my occupation here in

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Speaker 2: the UK. But I'm a medical legal death investigator by trade.

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Speaker 2: So I worked for the Corner Service, and I was

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Speaker 2: an investigator for the Corner in New Orleans and then

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Speaker 2: they don't have Corners in Atlanta. I became a medical

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Speaker 2: examiner investigator there. And I read a book many years

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Speaker 2: ago called Corner at Large, written by doctor Tom Negucci,

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Speaker 2: and doctor Negucci was the chief medical examdler slash corner

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Speaker 2: for La. They actually referred to him as the corner

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Speaker 2: to the stars. And he did Belushi's death, Marilyn Monroe,

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Speaker 2: you name it. And he was famously involved in the

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Speaker 2: Tate La Bianca bos And he made an interesting statement.

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Speaker 2: He said that when he was a young practitioner, he

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Speaker 2: would go out to the scene, and because he was

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Speaker 2: a forensic topologist by trade, his eyes were immediately drawn

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Speaker 2: to the body, and of course the medical examiner would

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Speaker 2: not come out where they're not a body of the scene.

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Speaker 2: And he said that he soon learned that he was

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Speaker 2: being distracted by the body. So this was his practice.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Degucci stated that he became a better observer of

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Speaker 2: crime scenes. When he walked through the door, he would

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Speaker 2: have already said been told the bodies in the back room,

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Speaker 2: or the bodies in the living room or in the kitchen.

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Speaker 2: His eyes immediately went to the ceiling and he would

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Speaker 2: begin to inspect the ceiling. And therefore he opined that

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Speaker 2: he his attention was not wrong. Do you how do

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Speaker 2: you feel about that comment relative to what doctor Mapuci

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Speaker 2: are you ever? Have you ever been distracted by a

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Speaker 2: body at a scene because it's so horrific or something

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Speaker 2: so over the top and it's hard to get past it.

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Speaker 2: It's hard, you know, your humanity gets involved in if

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Speaker 2: it's important.

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Speaker 1: The thing is that I completely relate to that story

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Speaker 1: because I think that the devil is in the detail.

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Speaker 1: So when you have too much of something, it kind

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Speaker 1: of overwhelms your senses. So from a bloodstained perspective, I

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Speaker 1: always kind of go to the edge of it because

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Speaker 1: I think, well, all of this stuff here is kind

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Speaker 1: of distorted and difficult and complex. But when you get

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Speaker 1: to the edge of a pattern, it becomes much more

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Speaker 1: easy to break down. It becomes much more detailed from

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Speaker 1: the perspective of understanding how those bloodstains got there. And

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Speaker 1: the thing about the ceiling is if you bloodson somebody

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Speaker 1: to death really differently, and you swing a weapon like

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Speaker 1: a baseball back multiple times in that space, the thing

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Speaker 1: that happens is blood starts to collect on it, and

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Speaker 1: you start to flick and past that blood into the space,

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Speaker 1: and that blood stuff is going onto the ceiling. So

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Speaker 1: as soon as you find those droplets that have landed

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Speaker 1: on the ceiling, you can stand under them. You can

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Speaker 1: examine which direction they're traveling, and you can put yourself

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Speaker 1: in the exact spot the perpetrate to the standing when

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Speaker 1: they swung that weapon. And then you look down and

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Speaker 1: there's a footwear mark, and you look to the wall

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Speaker 1: where they've placed their hand to steady themselves, and suddenly

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Speaker 1: the forensic nest starts to absolutely come in around that

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Speaker 1: individual and you've gone, and they'll tell you what. There

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Speaker 1: is nothing better than a gottum in the forensic context,

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Speaker 1: as long as it's the right person right and you

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Speaker 1: can see the T shirt and wearing. So I am

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Speaker 1: very much fully aware of miscarriages justice, but you get

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Speaker 1: the right person, and there's no better feeling. From a

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Speaker 1: personal perspective.

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Speaker 2: I've always used the paint brush an analogy when you

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Speaker 2: begin to think about cast off, and my bride is

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Speaker 2: here with me, Kim, and she can testify to the

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Speaker 2: fact that I hate painting. I can't stand it, but

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Speaker 2: I do know this. If I take a paint brush,

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Speaker 2: dip it in a paint bucket, and flick it over

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Speaker 2: my shoulder, I'll get this kind of arcing deposition on

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Speaker 2: the ceiling or latterally this sort of thing cast on. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and cast off is what you're talking about, because you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe if you're talking about a bludgeoning, you're not necessarily

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Speaker 2: it's generally going to take multiple strikes before the skin

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Speaker 2: is going to be eruptive or lacerated to the point

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Speaker 2: where you'll get a deposition on the instrument to transfer it.

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Speaker 2: So the more strikes you have involved, there's a higher

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Speaker 2: probability that you'll have the surface coverage of the instrument

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Speaker 2: and you can do it. But you know, a single

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Speaker 2: strike is not necessarily every time going to produce a

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Speaker 2: lacerated area, will blood will issue forth from. So when

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Speaker 2: you get multiple strikes on body and I'm using I'm

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Speaker 2: using bludgeoning in particular, here you can have all manner

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Speaker 2: of patterns. And here here's the crazy thing for me,

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Speaker 2: and I still have not been able to understand how

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Speaker 2: you guys do this. The deposition patterns, particularly when you're

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Speaker 2: talking about cast off, you can have these multiple arcs

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Speaker 2: that kind of crisscross because it's not in a static environment.

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Speaker 2: You've got people that are reacting to pain. Their pain

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Speaker 2: centers are firing, they're adjusting, the perpetrator is adjusting. So

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Speaker 2: you can have this kind of layering that goes on,

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Speaker 2: don't you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean the clue is in the title, it's

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Speaker 1: blood stained pattern analysis, right, So we need blood to

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Speaker 1: starts off on that journey. So if you hit into

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Speaker 1: something that isn't blood, staying, I'm not coming out. I'm

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Speaker 1: staying in bed are However, if you've got blood, then

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Speaker 1: of course you know that's going to tell us something

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Speaker 1: about what happened. But I mean, these spaces are chaotic,

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Speaker 1: they're distressing, their dynamic and all of that kind of

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Speaker 1: comes together to produce a distribution that some of it

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Speaker 1: will be very easily identified and interpreted, and some of

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Speaker 1: it will kind of be like, scratch your head, I

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Speaker 1: really don't know what's going on here. I mean, the

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Speaker 1: first thing that happens when you get to a crime

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Speaker 1: scene is you're usual briefed by someone at the door

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Speaker 1: in terms of when you go through there. This is

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Speaker 1: what we're kind of wanting from your visit, and you've

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Speaker 1: got to be careful because that information can bias you

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Speaker 1: in terms of where you look or where you start

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Speaker 1: your examination. But it's also very helpful to have that

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Speaker 1: because I once went to a scene where I'd spent

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Speaker 1: quite a long time actually looking around the kitchen in

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Speaker 1: the living room and thinking, wow, it's not a huge

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Speaker 1: amount of me and maybe we've very clean up or

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Speaker 1: something like that, and then the crime scene manager came

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Speaker 1: to me and said, Joe, the scenes in the bedroom upstairs,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, wow, well nothing here, and

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Speaker 1: then I walked up the stairs and got only in

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Speaker 1: my job. But you know, in the in the time

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Speaker 1: of like budgets and things like that, they don't want

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Speaker 1: you to be wasting the time and the kitchen in the room.

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Speaker 2: This is my praise with the UK. One of the

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Speaker 2: things that I thoroughly love about your practice is that

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Speaker 2: in America, if we have if we have even the

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Speaker 2: most grotesque commicide, maybe even a multiple death event, we're

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Speaker 2: kind of in and out in a very short amount

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Speaker 2: of time compared to you guys here. You guys, I've

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Speaker 2: seen it on the news, So maybe you can verify

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Speaker 2: this from me, because we know that not everything in

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Speaker 2: the news to ACCURENT. But with that said, you guys,

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Speaker 2: it's not uncommon for you guys to maybe lock down

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Speaker 2: an active scene for three or four days, and you

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Speaker 2: will take your time and go through that space, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the whole scene space is a journey,

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Speaker 1: so not everybody using it in at one time, so

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Speaker 1: you know, you have the first responders, and then that

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Speaker 1: turns into the crime scene teams, and then everything has

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Speaker 1: a method behind it. So yeah, sometimes we can be

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Speaker 1: in the scenes for days, you know, I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: nothing's going anywhere, right, so you don't want to trample

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Speaker 1: over it and mess it up. Yeah. Even anything I

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Speaker 1: do has to have an eye on who's coming in

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Speaker 1: this space next, and I don't want to mess it

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Speaker 1: up for them. So everything has a process around it.

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Speaker 1: And yet there'll be some cases where we have to

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Speaker 1: go in really quickly and get out really quickly, and

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Speaker 1: that might be because of various factors. As an example,

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Speaker 1: if somebody has died in an ambulance, we don't want

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Speaker 1: to be taking that vehicle out of commission for any

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Speaker 1: longer than is absolutely necessary. So we'll go in, we'll

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Speaker 1: triarge you, we'll get what we need, will come out,

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Speaker 1: We'll get that thing back into doing the job that

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Speaker 1: it needs to do. But everything is a learning curve.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've been in and out of Lords of

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Speaker 1: Crime scenes and I have never seen the same thing twice.

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Speaker 1: I think that the moment you stop learning or open

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Speaker 1: to the suggestion that this might be different, I think

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Speaker 1: that's the time to hang up the scene.

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Speaker 2: So frankly, I think my baseline anytime that I hear

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Speaker 2: someone say that they have seen everything, I run not

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Speaker 2: walk away from that individual, because it's impossible. I've learned people.

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Speaker 2: I've learned from people that have worked in rural spaces.

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Speaker 2: I've worked in urban, very densely populated urban areas, and

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Speaker 2: I can't identify with a farm accident or homicide was committed,

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Speaker 2: you know, at a you know, at a vineyard somewhere,

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Speaker 2: because I don't understand that space. So just because you know,

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Speaker 2: I've worked in a high volume area. We had this

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Speaker 2: discussion area earlier. Just because I've worked in a high

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Speaker 2: volume area, have worked in a high volume area, doesn't

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Speaker 2: necessarily mean that I know everything, And it's very arrogant

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Speaker 2: to do that. You every every scene is a learning opportunity,

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Speaker 2: would you agree with?

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Speaker 1: And anybody that is on my pook quiz te will

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Speaker 1: know I don't know nothing, So let's just get that

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Speaker 1: into concepts. Because the thing is, and this is this

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Speaker 1: is going to sound really awful, and I'm embarrassed to

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Speaker 1: say it, frankly, but because there was such weird kid

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Speaker 1: and also really wanted to be a forensic scientist, all

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Speaker 1: of my decisions in my education were based on that.

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Speaker 1: So all the humanities kind of went out the window.

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Speaker 1: I'm really bad at geography. Please don't ask me anything

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Speaker 1: about history, you know, things like that trivial pursuit. I

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Speaker 1: am like science questions, yeah, yeah, and and and that

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Speaker 1: kind of limits your understanding. But now, because I'm older

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Speaker 1: and I'm hopefully much more wiser, I'm kind of trying

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Speaker 1: to fill in the gaps from missing out of that.

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Speaker 1: But You're absolutely right.

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Speaker 2: I was hoping if you could give us a brief primer,

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Speaker 2: brief primer on velocity, just so that people, because I

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Speaker 2: know that kind of the coin of the realm, if

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Speaker 2: you will. One of the things that you're you're asked

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Speaker 2: to interpret is with blood deposition. You know, there's a couple,

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Speaker 2: there's this is multi prong.

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Speaker 1: How the myth bush you already the mythus really yeah,

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Speaker 1: because are you using velocity in the context of blood.

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Speaker 2: Yes, okay.

385
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Speaker 1: So the thing is that we can't define blood patterns

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Speaker 1: on the basis of velocity. So velocity is speed, right,

387
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,400
Speaker 1: it's mass time something. Does anybody have Google with them

388
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,160
Speaker 1: because that is extremely helpful in these situations when you're

389
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Speaker 1: spot for velosity equation. Never mind, So the vast majority

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Speaker 1: of definitions around bloodstained pattern analysis were based on velocity.

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Speaker 1: We have high velocity impact, we had medium velocity impact,

392
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 1: we had low velost the impact and everybody went around

393
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Speaker 1: for about twenty thirty years thinking wow, that sounded really cool.

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Speaker 1: And the reason why it was defined around velocity was

395
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Speaker 1: because the majority of initial research was based on gun

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Speaker 1: shot situations. We shot stuff, and dare I say most

397
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Speaker 1: of that research came out from the state. I always

398
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Speaker 1: say in the UK that if we come across a

399
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Speaker 1: gun in the UK, we usually bludgeon somebody to death

400
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Speaker 1: with it because we literally don't have the same level

401
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:14,679
Speaker 1: of gun crime and gun accessibility as So all this

402
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 1: initial research we had load in various forms and various devices,

403
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 1: and we shot it and people looked at the pattern

404
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 1: and said, wow, I've just shot that with a high

405
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: losty weapon. That is a high losty impact pattern. And

406
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Speaker 1: the problem is it defines the pattern based on the weapon.

407
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 1: If I go into a crime scene, I cannot look

408
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:41,199
Speaker 1: at an impact pattern that's and say, wow, look at that,

409
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 1: that's a baseball back, or wow, look at that that's

410
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Speaker 1: a punching. The pattern is the pattern. It has its

411
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 1: own features. And so now we need to turn away

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Speaker 1: from the losty definitions and move towards what is the

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Speaker 1: range of stain sizes within that pattern, and from that

414
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Speaker 1: we can then understand the energy the force, and now

415
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: we can start to talk about the activities that caused

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00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,479
Speaker 1: that to be produced. So I'm really sorry to like

417
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: misbus the thing, but I'm going to google what velocity is.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much. I will no, I want to

419
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 2: give you I'm glad that you mentioned this, and that's

420
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Speaker 2: kind of why I wanted that trap to be set

421
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 2: for myself. Really, yes, absolutely, And let me give you

422
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 2: an example. There's an infamous case in America that's referred

423
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Speaker 2: to as the Jody Aria's case. I don't know if

424
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Speaker 2: you guys are familiar with that. I've covered in the

425
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Speaker 2: media for years and years. When you take a look

426
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Speaker 2: at the Jody Arias case, this is started out as

427
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 2: a stabbing of a man that was in shower and

428
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 2: he stabbed multiple times in the back by his girlfriend.

429
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Speaker 2: She clipped one of his lungs. He's aware that he's

430
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Speaker 2: being stabbed, and you can see it by virtue of

431
00:25:55,440 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 2: the low velocity dripping that's going on. But he walks

432
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Speaker 2: over to the sink in the bathroom and he places

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Speaker 2: his hands on both sides of the sink, and she's

434
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 2: clipped as long. If you were to look at the

435
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 2: mirror that he was staring into as he's trying to breathe,

436
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 2: in the area around the sink, there is fine aspirt

437
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 2: blood droplets that are everywhere, And if you were looking

438
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 2: at this just blindly, he would say, well, that looks

439
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 2: like high veloscity blood deposition. But he is literally he's

440
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 2: coughing this up and it's disguised, you know. When you

441
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 2: and she did finally the coup de graze, they say

442
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,239
Speaker 2: she shot him at the end of all of this,

443
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 2: after she stabbed him in the double digits, he's crawling

444
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 2: down the hallway. She finally stands over him, cuts his

445
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 2: throat and too out a small caliber weapon and shoots

446
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 2: on the left aspect of the head and it tracks

447
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 2: from here behind his eye and exits right here. There's

448
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 2: no hemorrhage in the one, so it's a post warm

449
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,199
Speaker 2: bench out one. But if you were just looking at

450
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 2: that with that fine deposition, you might say that that

451
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 2: is high velocity.

452
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 1: So the features of that blood will have some unique characteristics.

453
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: Because when we mix blood with something else, as an example,

454
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 1: air or lungs of fact or saliva or anything that

455
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 1: isn't meant to be mixed with blood red wine as

456
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: an example, then it changes what the blood looks like.

457
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 1: And we can then start to look at that in

458
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: real detail to understand is that color change due to

459
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: it be mixed with something So in that particular case,

460
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: expiated blood as we would call it, but asked for

461
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: it as you like all many feed then we can

462
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: have a look at the real fire features. And that's

463
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: not to say I can just take a photograph and

464
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: that's my job. Done. Have to get on your hands

465
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: and knees and have a look at the detail. And

466
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: because it's mixed with lungs effactant potentially air as an example,

467
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:13,959
Speaker 1: it might have little air bubbles in it. It might

468
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: look like an aero kind of consistency. It might have

469
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: a dilution in it. It might have what we call springing,

470
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 1: which is where little droplets of blood can't disconnect from

471
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: others and they have this connection between spots of blood,

472
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 1: and that's because it's become more sticky, it can't do

473
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: what it likes to do. And then we can use

474
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 1: all of those features one after the other to say

475
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: this is just normal unadulted blood. Something's happening to it.

476
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: As an example explorator and by the way, I find

477
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 1: this a little segue into other stuff that we're doing

478
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: over the weekend. But if we put a little bit

479
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 1: of this training with a little bit of the blood

480
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: training that you might get in the US like Justice event,

481
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: with the other training that's happened in this afternoon at

482
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: the session on stay impact analysis, you can put that

483
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 1: all together. It's like a mini training. Cost Come and

484
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: find me and I'll light your certificate because seriously.

485
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 2: You're you're going to be credentialed after this.

486
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: You're literally going to get like a doctor or say hey,

487
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: there you go, there you go.

488
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 2: Can you talk a little bit about well, here's a

489
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 2: question that many people ask. Is it possible to lift

490
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 2: or where you can identify, but is it possible to

491
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 2: identify specific features relative to a fingerprint or handprint in

492
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 2: in blood, and can you kind of explain that process

493
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 2: today morning?

494
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: Yes, So, I mean everybody knows about fingerprints. That's not

495
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: my area, but I have seen a lot of marks

496
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: in blood over my time. But the thing about a

497
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: fingerprint is it's something that we can use to identify people.

498
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: Put that fingerprint in the blood of the victim, and

499
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 1: you've got yourself for the golden ticket, because it demonstrates

500
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: potentially that that individual is in that space when the

501
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: blood of the victim was a vent and is placed

502
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: down marks on stuff. So it kind of it's got

503
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: like a time check to it, and it could be

504
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: used really powerfully in the context of crime. I had

505
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: a case a number of years ago now, but the

506
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: offender has used the blood of his victim and written

507
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: a really horrible word on the wall of the crime

508
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: scene and finished it off to the next exclamation point. Well,

509
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but you don't get any prizes if you're stupid, right,

510
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: So here you went to jail. Directly to jail is

511
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 1: that these are things that happen in the commission of

512
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: these events that people aren't really thinking you can do

513
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: all the planning in the world, but you get cross,

514
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: you get angry, things get out of control, and suddenly

515
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: you put in a really all the world and all

516
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: the under printing it. So that's that's your bad.

517
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. We we were just speaking earlier about our colleagues

518
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 2: that are involved in forensic document examination, and you know,

519
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 2: there's not not too many of those folks around anymore.

520
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 2: But when you think about someone writing in blood, and

521
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 2: going back to Naguchi earlier, he was at you know,

522
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 2: the Tate Labanca. You know famously the word pig was

523
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 2: written on the wall, and of course blood was the medium.

524
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 2: You know that that was written in, and you begin

525
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 2: to think about that, is that actually something that has

526
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 2: occurred with some level of frequency.

527
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: In your practice in terms of people writing.

528
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 2: Writing in blood?

529
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I won't say it's a common occurrence, but

530
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: when it happens, of course, it's going to be really important.

531
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 1: Usually people are just moving blood around because they're stained,

532
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: and they're bumping into things and touching things. You can

533
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: sort of follow their tracks. Really. I once knew that

534
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: someone had put a CD in their CD player, and

535
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: I could tell the song that they played on the

536
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: CD in wood stages that they found on Wi Fi.

537
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: We call it how quite a lot. I just literally

538
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 1: realize that, I'm so do they even exist anymore?

539
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 2: I'm not sure.

540
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 1: I'm really sorry about that. But anyway, but sometimes there's

541
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 1: a detail in there that you think, wow, you know,

542
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 1: I mean, anybody else wouldn't necessarily see it, but it's

543
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 1: such an important detail, and you know, it could be

544
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: really important in the context of the investigation.

545
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 2: Who knows Joe right right now? I would first like

546
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 2: for you, if you don't mind, please expand a little

547
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 2: bit for us on the Inside Justice program that you're

548
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 2: involved with and kind of talk talk to that and

549
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 2: about those that in many cases have been wrongly accused

550
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 2: and what do you bring, what do you bring to

551
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 2: the table your expertise please?

552
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. So Inside Justice is a charity in UK, charity

553
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 1: which is it's kind of it's a multifaceted charity, but

554
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: the main objective is to help people who have been

555
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: subject to an alleged miscarriage of justice and we do

556
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: that through donation obviously, but we uniquely have an advisory

557
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: panel and if anybody has seen the programs on Netflix

558
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: Conviction Murder at the station murdering Suburbia. They are about

559
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: this charity. I've been working with them for a number

560
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: of years. I can't remember how I got involved, but

561
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: somebody probably said will you do anything for free? And

562
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: I said sure, And then probably ten years later, here

563
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: we are at crime con But you can meet them all.

564
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: Actually they're just outside the room. We're doing their fingerprint queuing.

565
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: So canqutment fingerprint and queuing be unique to you that

566
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 1: the donation? Thanks very much, But a charity is such

567
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: a rich seam of expertise because the advisory panel is

568
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 1: based of legal experts, forensic scientists like me, people from

569
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 1: a full gamut of industry who are all swimming in

570
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 1: the same direction to ensure that a miscarriages are corrected,

571
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,760
Speaker 1: but also to drive systemic change so that we don't

572
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: have miscarriages of justice. You know that when I started

573
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: my career, we didn't have DNA profiling, right, So change

574
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 1: can happen. We have to get into a place where

575
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 1: miscarriages of justice do not happen, because apart from them

576
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: putting the wrong person in prison, that's one thing, but

577
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: it means that the wrong person is out in the community.

578
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 1: And I think that we really need to shift our

579
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,839
Speaker 1: thinking on the reliability the robustness of our criminal justice

580
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:02,359
Speaker 1: system and really challenge these decisions that put the wrong

581
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: person in prison, and just on that there is we're

582
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: running a session on repeat essentially throughout the weekend, which

583
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: is I think next Door. So if you get chance,

584
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,479
Speaker 1: please book yourself into that session and we can talk

585
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 1: through it's based on a real case, and we can

586
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 1: talk you through the forensic signs that was used in

587
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 1: an investigation.

588
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,800
Speaker 2: One other thing, if you're wanting to get credential, you

589
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 2: said that you would credential. Now you're going to give

590
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 2: them certific she said it here like that certificate. If

591
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 2: we are away, you are housed in an event And

592
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 2: in just a bit I think today roughly three ish

593
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 2: three twenty five at that time.

594
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, the brilliant people at True Crime are allowing me

595
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 1: to talk even more about blood, bloodstains. What is going on?

596
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: So three something or other I think exhibit A three

597
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 1: twenty five, I believe we'll be talking about bloodstain patent analysis.

598
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 1: Come along to that hopefully. And in fact, this week

599
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 1: they're launching Murder Murdered by the Sea, which is I

600
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: think the third season of that which again deals with

601
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 1: some of the bloodstains that we're encountered in cases. So

602
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,879
Speaker 1: if you're not fed up with me by now, then

603
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: please inside Justice next door and then we'll see you

604
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 1: in an exhibit a later on.

605
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 2: You're going to be doing anything about velocity over there,

606
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 2: I'm just curious.

607
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: I'm literally going to be lived in for this Microsoft, and.

608
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 2: We'll use paint into it. We'll have a.

609
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: Live demo of some patterns that you are to do

610
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: with competency test Lovely.

611
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 2: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks