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Speaker 1: Al Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know. This is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to it.

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Speaker 4: Couldop be here a podcast about things falling apart and

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Speaker 4: how to put them back together again. I'm your host,

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Speaker 4: Mia Wong. This is a story about Boeing. I'm going

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Speaker 4: to lay my cards on the table from the stars.

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Speaker 4: I'm from Chicago, but my family is from Seattle. Some

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Speaker 4: of my aunts and uncles worked for Boeing in the

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Speaker 4: eighties or the airline side. Some of our closest family

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Speaker 4: friends worked there for much longer than that. I grew

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Speaker 4: up on the periphery of this industry, and I have

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Speaker 4: never seen the people in it and the people who

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Speaker 4: have left as angry as they are now. People are pissed,

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Speaker 4: and they should be. In the last six years, Boeing

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Speaker 4: has killed three hundred and forty six people. In the

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Speaker 4: years to come, they may well kill more, and not

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Speaker 4: a single one of them had to die. This is

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Speaker 4: how it happened. What is Boeing? The short answer, obviously

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Speaker 4: is that it's a company that makes both civilian and

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Speaker 4: military airplanes. It also does some other things, including working

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Speaker 4: on space travel, but that's not our media concern here.

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Speaker 4: The long answer, however, and it's the long answer that

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Speaker 4: we need, is that Boeing is the poster child for

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Speaker 4: the post World War II labor, corporate, militarist alliance. Boeing

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Speaker 4: itself was a sometimes uneasy alliance of workers, engineers, and

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Speaker 4: the army that made civilian and military airplanes. This is

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Speaker 4: also not a terrible description of the entirety of the

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Speaker 4: post war United States, with the proviso at the airplanes

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Speaker 4: the US is making, We're dropping bombs at Vietnam. The

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Speaker 4: unwinding of Boeing that we're all watching today as doors

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Speaker 4: fall off of planes and more and more grounded, is

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Speaker 4: the unwinding of that America. Here I turned to the

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Speaker 4: anthropologist David Graber from his book The Utopia of Rules quote,

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Speaker 4: I think what happened is best considered as a kind

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Speaker 4: of shifting class allegiances on the part of the managerial

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Speaker 4: staff of major corporations from an uneasy de facto alliance

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Speaker 4: with their own workers to one with investors. As John

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Speaker 4: Kenneth Galbraith long ago pointed out, if you create an

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Speaker 4: organization geared to produce perfumes, dairy products, or aircraft usel lodges,

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Speaker 4: those who make it up will, if left at their

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Speaker 4: own devices, tend to concentrate their efforts on producing more

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Speaker 4: and better perfumes, dairy products, or aircraft usel lodges, rather

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Speaker 4: than thinking primarily of what will make the most money

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Speaker 4: for shareholders. What's more, since for most of the twentieth century,

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Speaker 4: a job in a large bureaucratic megafirm meant a lifetime

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Speaker 4: promise of employment involved in the process, managers and workers

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Speaker 4: alike tended to see themselves as sharing a certain common

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Speaker 4: interest in this regard over and against meddling owners and investors.

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Speaker 4: This kind of solidarity across class lines even had a name.

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Speaker 4: It's called corporatism. One mustn't romanticize it. It was, among

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Speaker 4: other things, the philosophical basis of fascism. Indeed, one could

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Speaker 4: well argue that fascism simply took the idea that workers

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Speaker 4: and managers had interest in common, that organizations like corporations

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Speaker 4: or communities formed organic holes, and that finances were an alien,

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Speaker 4: parasitic force and drove them to their ultimate murderers.

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Speaker 3: Extreme.

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Speaker 4: Even in its more benign social democratic versions in America

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Speaker 4: or Europe, the attendant politics often came tinged with chauvinism,

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Speaker 4: but they also ensured that the investor class was always

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Speaker 4: seen as to some extent outsiders, against whom white collar

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Speaker 4: and blue collar workers could be considered, at least to

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Speaker 4: some degree, to be in united common front. Now as

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Speaker 4: a product of the united Front between workers and managers,

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Speaker 4: the corporate as system of the post war era had

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Speaker 4: a very different conception of what a corporation is. It

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Speaker 4: was a social entity composed of a variety of classes

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Speaker 4: and had an obligation to take care of them. It

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Speaker 4: had an obligation to its workers, to its engineers, to

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Speaker 4: its customers, and even to its country. By absorbing unions

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Speaker 4: into the corporate system, the system itself had been forced

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Speaker 4: to adapt a more sociological self conception that vastly differed

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Speaker 4: from the ways corporations both view themselves and behave today.

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Speaker 4: As Grabern notes this class coalition largely wrote capitalists out

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Speaker 4: of the equation, reducing them to merror holders of stock,

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Speaker 4: not managers. In Boeing's case, those managers were engineers at

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Speaker 4: basically all levels of the company. Now we must note

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Speaker 4: here that in the post World War two era engineers

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Speaker 4: were extremely powerful, and this is not just true of

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Speaker 4: capitalist nations. So the US, to some extent, had an

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Speaker 4: early start on the power of engineers in the running

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Speaker 4: of New deal programs like the Tennessee Valley Authority. Engineers

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Speaker 4: are powerful in communist countries as well, and it's true

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Speaker 4: in quasi socialist countries that have just liberated themselves from

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Speaker 4: the old European empires. These engineers were both extremely well

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Speaker 4: paid and very influential everywhere you can find them, from

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Speaker 4: Belgium to Peru, and the only real difference is whether

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Speaker 4: they were trained by the Americans or the Soviets. Now,

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Speaker 4: the fact that you, the listener, are not reporting to

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Speaker 4: an engineer right now at your job is assigned that

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Speaker 4: they didn't exactly hold on to power. In fact, the

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Speaker 4: last vestiges of this class of extremely powerful engineers aren't

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Speaker 4: really even em Boeing at all. The most prominent remain

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Speaker 4: of the Great Engineering International is Shijim Ping, who is

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Speaker 4: part of a class in China known as the Red Engineer.

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Speaker 4: If you want to know more about the Red Engineers,

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Speaker 4: we unfortunately do not have time to really go into

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Speaker 4: them here, but c Joel Andreas's book Rise of the

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Speaker 4: Red Engineers for the most famous treatment of them.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 4: In China, the Red Engineers effectively seized control of the

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Speaker 4: states and were the kind of second generation that ruled

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Speaker 4: back the social changes of the revolution from the Maoist period.

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Speaker 4: In the US, the story is a bit more complicated.

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Speaker 4: In some places, the engineers as a class were rolled

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Speaker 4: up and brutally destroyed in a war with a newly

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Speaker 4: ascended financed class. In others, engineers, feeling the disciplining effects

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Speaker 4: of the market, effectively engineered their own destruction. The latter

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Speaker 4: engineers leading the company to financial ruin is to some

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Speaker 4: extent the story of Boeing, But to get there we

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Speaker 4: need to take a look at how the worker management

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Speaker 4: Alowience Graver described came a part. I have talked at

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Speaker 4: length on this show about the economic crisis of the

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Speaker 4: seventies in which everything the entire consensus that had held

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Speaker 4: the post war era together fell apart. One of the

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Speaker 4: key elements is that in the nineteen seventies, manufacturing becomes

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Speaker 4: zero sum. If manufacturing output increases in one country, it

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Speaker 4: can largely only come at the expense of production somewhere else.

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Speaker 4: This is the product of a general crisis of structural

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Speaker 4: overproduction and structural under consumption. This meant that it was

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Speaker 4: no longer possible to incorporate everyone into the capitalist welfare

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Speaker 4: system while also retaining corporate profits, and so someone was

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Speaker 4: going to have to lose everything. It was either going

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Speaker 4: to be the capitalist or the workers. And the people

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Speaker 4: who lost everything, as I think we're all aware of

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Speaker 4: living in the world that we do now, were the

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Speaker 4: workers whose power was systematically destroyed. But that arly, the

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Speaker 4: story of the destruction of unions and destruction of the

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Speaker 4: leftbore broadly is a story for another day for our purposes.

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Speaker 4: The important class that was destroyed in the period of

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Speaker 4: the seventies is the class of managerial engineers, and these

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Speaker 4: engineers were destroyed by a takeover of Corporate America by

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Speaker 4: the shareholders the Corporatist Alliance had previously held at bay.

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Speaker 4: The takeover of Corporate America by finance schools had two mechanisms.

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Speaker 4: The leveraged buyout, better known as corporate rating, was carried

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Speaker 4: out by people like Michael Milken, and the internal movement

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Speaker 4: of executives from inside the corporations themselves, led by people

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Speaker 4: like Jack Welsh, who will meet both of these people

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Speaker 4: in detail later in this story. But the details of

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Speaker 4: the process of how exactly the finance schools came to

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Speaker 4: control Corporate America turn out to be extremely important because

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Speaker 4: Boeing is destroyed by both of the two mechanisms coming

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Speaker 4: together at the same time. Now, as the eighties dawned,

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Speaker 4: the world lived in fear of a new kind of

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Speaker 4: financial device, the leveraged buyout. The exact mechanisms of the

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Speaker 4: leveraged buyout are slightly complicated, but the short version is

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Speaker 4: that Michael Milken, a bond salesman who I eventually am

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Speaker 4: going to do a fall behind the bastard's episode on

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Speaker 4: because oh my God is the evil and there simply

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Speaker 4: is not space to elaborate on all the stuff that

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Speaker 4: he did here, including this off that eventually is going

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Speaker 4: to send him to prison, figured out a way for

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Speaker 4: a person or a group too, with very little actual

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Speaker 4: cash on hand to very quickly take on an unbelievable

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Speaker 4: amount of debt, use it to buy a company, and

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Speaker 4: then sell that company for parts to pay back the debt,

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Speaker 4: pocketing the difference as profit. This was an instant, existential

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Speaker 4: danger to a corporate America. Previously, corporate takeovers were extremely difficult.

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Speaker 4: Attempting to get two hundred million dollars to buy a

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Speaker 4: company required you to have two hundred million dollars on hand.

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Speaker 4: But now with the leveraged buyout, a group of yahoos

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Speaker 4: with a tiny amount of money could simply buy a

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Speaker 4: company for higher Vans stock price, loot it for parts,

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Speaker 4: and destroy it. This completely changed the balance of power

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Speaker 4: between shareholders and corporations. One of the best accounts of

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Speaker 4: this era is from the anthropologist Karen Hoe in her

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Speaker 4: book Liquidated in Ethnography of Wall Street. The book was

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Speaker 4: a product of the field work she did at a

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Speaker 4: Wall Street investment bank in the nineties. And I really

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Speaker 4: cannot emphasize this book enough. This book is incredible. Everyone

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Speaker 4: should read. It is a book that genuinely changed my life.

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Speaker 4: And one of the things that she talks about is

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Speaker 4: this moment, the moments of leverage buyouts, and the way

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Speaker 4: that it is constantly brought up by the people that

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Speaker 4: she is working with at this bank when she's wing

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Speaker 4: her which she's doing around topological field work. Everyone she

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Speaker 4: talks to talks about this moment where the corporate raids

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Speaker 4: really got going as the moment the shareholder revolution began. Now,

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Speaker 4: we talked earlier about how in post war America, the

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Speaker 4: corporation was a social entity with responsibilities to its workers

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Speaker 4: and country. For the shareholders running the new shareholder revolution,

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Speaker 4: corporations had exactly one job, getting them more money to

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Speaker 4: raise stock prices. They called this shareholder value. And now

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Speaker 4: the disciples of shareholder value were able to wield the

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Speaker 4: ability to simply buy companies out wholesale and bend them

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Speaker 4: to the ends of shareholder value directly. This is what

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Speaker 4: is known as the shareholder revolution. Now, do you know

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Speaker 4: what else is a revolution in the ways that y'

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Speaker 4: all experience capitalism and mass culture at our jobs? It

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Speaker 4: is the products and service is that support this podcast.

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Speaker 3: We're back. The first thing that the corporate.

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Speaker 4: Raiders and the disciples of shareholder value did when they

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Speaker 4: started to take over companies was look at the balance

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Speaker 4: sheets of a company and destroy everything that didn't immediately

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Speaker 4: look to the Wall Street goruls like they made money. Now,

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Speaker 4: what are the assets on a balance sheet that do

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Speaker 4: not immediately increase stock price? Because again they look like costs.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 4: The two assets that don't immediately contribute are funds allocated

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Speaker 4: for research and developments and pensions, the darlings of the

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Speaker 4: workers and engineers who comprise the previous corporatist regimes.

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Speaker 3: Mass layoffs followed.

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Speaker 4: Companies were reduced to debt financing mechanisms for the corporate

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Speaker 4: raiders who took on the debt to acquire them were still.

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Speaker 4: As Karen Hie observes, even companies ran by the old

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Speaker 4: elite were forced to embrace the same methods the raiders

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Speaker 4: were using, because the only way to keep the raiders

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Speaker 4: from buying your company was by increasing your stock price,

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Speaker 4: And the only way to increase your stock price was

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Speaker 4: to appease the shareholder value fanatics. Control of corporate America

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Speaker 4: had shifted from the old managerial worker alliance to the

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Speaker 4: new shareholder value financiers. Now, the problem with these shareholder

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Speaker 4: value people running companies is that they are viscerally physically

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Speaker 4: incapable of long term planning. Don't take my word for it,

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Speaker 4: here's Karen hoe quote to actualize their central identity as

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Speaker 4: being immediately responsive to their own changing relationship with the market,

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Speaker 4: including employees, products, and so on. Their strategy is, in

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Speaker 4: a sense to have no strategy. Ironically, having no law

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Speaker 4: long term strategy is contradictory and potentially self defeating in

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Speaker 4: that investment banks often find themselves making drastic changes, only

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Speaker 4: to realize months or weeks later that those changes who

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Speaker 4: are unnecessary, premature, and extremely costly. For example, in chapter five,

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Speaker 4: I describe how investment bankers, in part because of their

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Speaker 4: access to sensitive proprietary information, are not only fired in

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Speaker 4: an instance, but must leave the physical premises of the

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Speaker 4: building within fifteen to thirty minutes. Given how crucial the

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Speaker 4: control of knowledge and the protection of inside information are

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Speaker 4: for Wall Street investment banks, it seems self defeating that

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Speaker 4: they do not praise any premium on loyalty, despite the

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Speaker 4: fact that firms try above all to enforce secrecy. They

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Speaker 4: accept and maintained this volatility in revolving door policy. To

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Speaker 4: make this clear, what carrot Ho is describing is that

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Speaker 4: investment banks, on the one hand, turn over like a

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Speaker 4: third of their staff every six months. And yet also

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Speaker 4: they are so reliant on the secrecy of this proprietary

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Speaker 4: information that they're using to make their investment decisions that

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Speaker 4: they are kicking the people. They are firing out of

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Speaker 4: the building in like fifteen minutes, so they don't have

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Speaker 4: time to plan or leak information. But again they're also

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Speaker 4: just firing these people on mass, so they're defeating the

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Speaker 4: entire point of their operations. These people cannot plan ahead.

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Speaker 4: And the reason that they cannot plan ahead isn't just

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Speaker 4: that they're sort of like naked disciples of pure increase

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Speaker 4: in stock price. What Liquidated describes is that these people

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Speaker 4: believe that they are effectively constantly reacting to near instantaneous

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Speaker 4: market changes. Right, they can't sort of make any kind

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Speaker 4: of long term plan because the market is the thing

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Speaker 4: that's making the plan, like the sort of mythical abstraction

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Speaker 4: of them. Market is what is doing all of the

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Speaker 4: actual allocations. So they just have to sort of like

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Speaker 4: sit there and have no plan and quote unquote respond

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Speaker 4: to what the market is doing. Now, large corporations have

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Speaker 4: always to some extent, acted as long term planning engines

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Speaker 4: because they have to Corporations have to do things like

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Speaker 4: research and development, They have to plan product lines, they

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Speaker 4: have to make long term decisions about resource allocation. The

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Speaker 4: shareholder value people are incapable of giving a shit about

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Speaker 4: any of this because all they care about is immediate

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Speaker 4: stock price movement, because they think that immediate stock price

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Speaker 4: movement reflects the will of the great efficiency planning engine

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Speaker 4: of the market. And you could begin to see here

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Speaker 4: why it would be a bad idea if these people,

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Speaker 4: who literally cannot create long term plans did something like,

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Speaker 4: for example, take control of the world's largest manufacturer of

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Speaker 4: commercial aircraft. Now, the shareholder value people also believe that

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Speaker 4: people are effectively interchangeable. And they believe this because and

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Speaker 4: this is a very key part of why the shareholder

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Speaker 4: value people and why these sort of finance people have

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Speaker 4: reshaped the world the way they do. They have reshaped

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Speaker 4: the world in their own image. And all of these

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Speaker 4: sort of investment bankers are interchangeable, right. All of these

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Speaker 4: fucking bankers are fired all of the time, and they

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Speaker 4: move from firm to firm, and it is fine for them.

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Speaker 4: But the thing is, you can't do this with the

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Speaker 4: design of your entire aircraft because unlike in finance, where

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Speaker 4: every single one of these clowns is really just a

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Speaker 4: replacement level bozo whose qualifications are being able to stumble

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Speaker 4: through the chain role and vaguely remember calculus, kiss, ask,

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Speaker 4: and play golf. Aerospace Engineers actually do a difficult job,

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Speaker 4: and it requires extraordinarily large bodies of embedded knowledge to

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Speaker 4: do this job correctly. Now, bringing in a bunch of

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Speaker 4: people who think you can just fucking replace aerospace engineers

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Speaker 4: will have no negative influences on Boeing in the future.

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Speaker 4: Pay no attention to the man behind the mirror. Everything

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Speaker 4: is fine. Do you know what else is fine? It

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Speaker 4: is the products and services that support this podcast. And

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Speaker 4: we are back the shareholder value fanatics. The investors who

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Speaker 4: are now taking control of Corporate America also believe that

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Speaker 4: mass firings make companies more valuable because it makes them

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Speaker 4: more efficient. They believe that offshoring makes a company more

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Speaker 4: valuable because it makes it more efficient. It doesn't actually

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Speaker 4: matter what the effect these moves have on the company

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Speaker 4: and its ability to produce products and its ability to

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Speaker 4: produce money. It doesn't matter at all, because that's how

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Speaker 4: the people who can control stock prices by buying the

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Speaker 4: stocks think the world works, and so if you do

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Speaker 4: these things, the stock price will go up. All quote

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Speaker 4: unquote creating shareholder value means is convincing a bunch of

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Speaker 4: dipshit quants working one hundred and twenty hours a week

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Speaker 4: that your company is valuable, so they buy it for

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Speaker 4: a higher price. And these are the people who reshape

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Speaker 4: American capitalism to their whims. Now importantly for our story,

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Speaker 4: they're also the people who ran the second phase of

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Speaker 4: the corporate rating era, the mergers and acquisitions boom through

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Speaker 4: the nineties and really to this day. Wall Street bankers

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Speaker 4: began to encourage companies to buy out other companies as

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Speaker 4: a mechanism of raising their stock price. This is, you know,

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Speaker 4: the acquisitions and mergers and acquisitions. They also heavily push

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Speaker 4: merging companies together. In the nineties. The buzzerod behind this

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Speaker 4: was quote unquote synergy. Buying companies or merging companies could

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Speaker 4: quote leverage synergies between companies to grow shareholder value. Side

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Speaker 4: of the shareholder value fantasy lands, Most of these mergers

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Speaker 4: and acquisitions either did nothing to help the company if

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Speaker 4: the acquisitions were small, or were a complete disaster that

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Speaker 4: destroyed both companies. The bankers who orchestrated these mergers and

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Speaker 4: acquisitions didn't give a shit though, because they got paid

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Speaker 4: on commission. It did not matter to them what happened afterwards.

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Speaker 4: All that matters is that the deal goes through. And

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Speaker 4: this is where we returned to Boeing because in nineteen

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Speaker 4: ninety seven Boeing made an acquisition that would fuck the

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Speaker 4: company forever. They bought one of their longtime rivals, an

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Speaker 4: aircraft company known as McDonald douglas. Now hitherto, Boeing had

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Speaker 4: been relatively insulated from the shareholder revolution. McDonald Douglas, however,

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Speaker 4: was not. Its CEO was a man with the incredible

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Speaker 4: name Harry Stone Cipher. Stone Cipher is different from most

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Speaker 4: aerospace executives because he wasn't a McDonald douglas corporate man.

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Speaker 4: He came from Jack Welch's at a Rule Electric And

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Speaker 4: it's here we need to introduce the other mechanism through

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Speaker 4: which the shareholder revolution was realized, a new breed of

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Speaker 4: CEOs led by the man himself, Jack Welsh. Now we

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Speaker 4: are not going to spend an enormous amount of time

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Speaker 4: talking about Jack Welsh in this episode, because Hit Cools

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Speaker 4: one media podcast behind the Bassard has three hours of

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Speaker 4: episode about this man, which you should go listen to

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Speaker 4: their good The short version of it that we're going

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Speaker 4: to give here is that Jack Welsh is the man

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Speaker 4: who invented the bass layoff. He was one of the

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Speaker 4: first CEOs to figure out that, again, you could raise

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Speaker 4: stock prices by selling off profitable divisions and firing workers

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Speaker 4: who are making the company money because shareholders are ideologically

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Speaker 4: driven maniacs who would believe Welsh's manipulated balance sheets that

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Speaker 4: show the company was doing better than ever even as

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Speaker 4: it sold off all of its assets. He was also

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Speaker 4: one of the first people to start practicing mass outsourcing,

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Speaker 4: replacing workers directly employed by General Electric with contractors. Soon

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Speaker 4: he was outsourcing entire divisions. Offshoring followed Welsh move jobs

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Speaker 4: from highly paid and highly trained union employees in the

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Speaker 4: US to ununionized workers in places like India and Mexico.

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Speaker 4: I think people generally kind of understand that offshoing lowers quality,

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Speaker 4: but why does that actually happen. It's not about something

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Speaker 4: like the natural skill of the workers, which is the

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Speaker 4: way it can kind of be presented in these sort

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Speaker 4: of nationalist accounts. It is about the level of violence

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Speaker 4: that can be inflicted on people. In places like India

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Speaker 4: and Mexico and China, there is an extraordinary amount of

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Speaker 4: violence that can be inflicted on the working class. And

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Speaker 4: because of this violence, because of their ability to destroy

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Speaker 4: unions and because of their ability to force people into

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Speaker 4: poverty by taking their land, people get paid less money

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Speaker 4: to work faster. And those people who are being paid

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Speaker 4: less money to work faster with worse training are going

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Speaker 4: to be worse at a job than people who are

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Speaker 4: paid more to do a better slow. And Jack Welch

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Speaker 4: wants this. He wants to sell shitty, low cost products

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Speaker 4: because they're cheaper to make than anything that actually works.

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Speaker 4: The long term consequences of this are a disaster. Welch

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Speaker 4: drove General Electric, one of the greatest engines of American

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Speaker 4: capitalism for a century, into the ground. Even after a

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Speaker 4: massive government bailout in two thousand and eights, it barely

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Speaker 4: exists today. Harry Stone Cipher, the CEO of the company

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Speaker 4: Boeing was about to buy, said this about Jack Welch. Quote, Certainly,

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Speaker 4: Jack Welch is one of the great leaders in my mind,

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Speaker 4: and of course he was selected as CEO of the

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Speaker 4: century by Fortune magazine a couple years ago, and of

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Speaker 4: course about twenty years ago, that same magazine coined the

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Speaker 4: phrase neutron Jack, and of course they vilified him at

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Speaker 4: every turn out. Neutron Jack, by the way, refers to

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Speaker 4: a neutron bomb, because effectively what he was doing was

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Speaker 4: firing all the workers and leaving only the sort of

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Speaker 4: like physical capital assets, like leaving all of the machines intact,

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Speaker 4: which is what a neutron bomb is supposed to do.

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Speaker 3: Let's go back to the UOTE quote.

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Speaker 4: Jack had a style that was one of trying to

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Speaker 4: change the environment, not to just deal with the environment.

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Speaker 4: So he inspired people, so he certainly won. So Stone

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Speaker 4: Cipher is a disciple of Welsh. He immediately starts running

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Speaker 4: the Jack Watch playbook, and though and behold, McDonald douglas

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Speaker 4: was failing when Boeing bought it for fourteen billion dollars.

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Speaker 4: And again, like Boeing at this point controls like sixty

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Speaker 4: five percent of the commercial aviation market, McDonald douglas controls

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Speaker 4: like five. Right, so this should have been like Goliath

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Speaker 4: eating David for breakfast, but the merger didn't go as planned.

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Speaker 4: Instead of the massive Boeing running the tidy McDonald douglas.

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Speaker 4: McDonald douglas executives effectively hijacked Boeing and installed themselves in

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Speaker 4: positions of power. Stone Cipher and his Padre shareholder value

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Speaker 4: fanatics began to consolidate their position and drive out the

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Speaker 4: previous Boeing regime. The capstone of this project was moving

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Speaker 4: Boeing headquarters from Seattle, where it had been since William E.

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Speaker 4: Boeing founded the company in nineteen sixteen, to Chicago as

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Speaker 4: a way to shift the physical center of power of

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Speaker 4: the company away from Boeing's engineers and workers and towards

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Speaker 4: the McDonald douglas finance goals. Then they began to run

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Speaker 4: the Jack Walsh playbook on Boeing in earnest. Every single

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Speaker 4: account of Stonecipher's takeover that I've written quotes this exact

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Speaker 4: same line quote. When people say I changed the culture

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Speaker 4: of Boeing, that was the intent, so that it's run

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Speaker 4: like a business rather than a great engineering firm. And

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Speaker 4: what stone Cipher is really talking about here, and what

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Speaker 4: everyone is really saying when they talk about, you know,

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Speaker 4: the culture shift Boeing in this period, what this really

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Speaker 4: is is a change in the balance of powers between

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Speaker 4: the engineers and workers who actually make the planes and

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Speaker 4: the finance schools who owned the company. Stone Cipher wanted

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Speaker 4: to crush the engineers and workers so he could run

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Speaker 4: Boeing like a business. And when he says like a business,

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Speaker 4: he doesn't actually mean run it like a business. He

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Speaker 4: means run the company like a finance guy. Finance guys

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Speaker 4: don't build planes, which is what Boeing had previously been doing.

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Speaker 4: Finance guys create shareholder value, which is to say that

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Speaker 4: they make stock prices go up. So if you're just

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Speaker 4: trying to raise stock prices, you don't actually need to

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Speaker 4: make an airplane. You can outsource the different parts of

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Speaker 4: building the airplane to a bunch of random shops around

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Speaker 4: the world who work extremely fast, don't have much of

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Speaker 4: an idea of what they're doing, and do a terrible job.

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Speaker 4: Long term. Of course, this is an absolute disaster. There

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Speaker 4: are very good reasons to keep the production line for

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Speaker 4: something as complicated as commercial aircraft in house efficiency, consolidation

436
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 4: of knowledge, quality control, et cetera, et cetera. But outsourcing

437
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 4: is great for his stock price, and it's the Jack

438
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 4: Welch model, selling shitty products for cheap works, kind of

439
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 4: if you're General Electric making a light bulb. But when

440
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 4: Boeing uses these same principles to build an aircraft, people.

441
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 3: Begin to die.

442
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 4: And in the next episode we are going to tell

443
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 4: that story how Boeing killed three hundred and forty six pemple.

444
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 4: Welcome to take it out here a podcast about things

445
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 4: happening to Boeing. I'm your host, Leo Long. When we

446
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 4: last left our intrepid aerospace company, Boeing had gotten caught

447
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 4: up in the mergers and acquisitions frenzy of the nineteen

448
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 4: nineties and bought out its rival McDonald douglas, after which

449
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 4: McDonald douglas CEO and Jack Welsh disciple Harry stone Zeipher

450
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 4: effectively launched an administrative coup and sees control of the company.

451
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 4: Now stone Ceipher wasn't able to hold onto power for

452
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 4: long because he was very quickly forced to resign after

453
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 4: he had what CNN describes as a quote improper relationship

454
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 4: with a female executive. So things are going great for

455
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 4: every one. I'm realizing reading the script that I should

456
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 4: mention it wasn't like an abuse thing. It's just that

457
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 4: he was having a relationship with one of his subordinates,

458
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 4: which is also not great. But it yeah, it wasn't good,

459
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 4: and he gets kicked out of media almost immediately. But

460
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 4: by the time he was forced out, his model for

461
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 4: how Boeing should work going forwards, you know, the layoffs,

462
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 4: the outsourcing, slashing the research and development budget, and above

463
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 4: all taking power from engineers and giving it to the

464
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 4: shareholder value fanatics had already been embedded at the core

465
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 4: of Boeing's management structure. Here's journalist Natasha Frost writing in

466
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:41,959
Speaker 4: Courts two decades on. Perhaps the most lasting consequence if

467
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 4: the change in culture has been in Boeing's approach to

468
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 4: building aircraft. Cutting costs and diversifying revenue ought to have

469
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 4: served as an ideal way to subsidize the expensive process

470
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 4: of plane development.

471
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 3: Oh boy did it not.

472
00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 4: Instead, with engineers now disempowered and management far away in Chicago,

473
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 4: the actual building of new planes in Seattle all but stalled.

474
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 4: Boeing would not actually announce even the plans for a

475
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 4: new plane until two thousand and three with the seven

476
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 4: to eighty seven Dreamliner. Throughout this time, Boeing was led

477
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 4: by its first chairman without a traditional aviation background, James McNerney.

478
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 4: James mcnerne had instead spent almost two decades in management

479
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 4: at General Electric. Now he was following a tried and

480
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 4: tested route of cutting, downsizing, and shifting. That approach was

481
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 4: applied to upgrading the seven thirty seven, which had become

482
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 4: the victim of its own success. In its five decade history,

483
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 4: airlines have cumulatively ordered more than ten thousand of the plane,

484
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 4: an aviation rock star. But rather than retiring the plane

485
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 4: replacing it with the next big thing, Boeing often to

486
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 4: keep costs down by tinkering and adjusting the model to

487
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 4: fit still more passengers. And this is how you get

488
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 4: planes falling out of the sky instead of you know,

489
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 4: doing the normal thing, which is putting money into building

490
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 4: a new airplane, which is you know expensive in the

491
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 4: short run. And again remember that the finance goals are

492
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 4: now in charge for these people. The only thing that

493
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 4: exists is the short run in immediate stock price. So

494
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 4: instead of doing that, management went, eh, we already have

495
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 4: this plane, were first designed in the fucking sixties. Let's

496
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 4: keep modifying that. And this this is going to kill

497
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 4: an extremely large number of people. Now, the seven thirty

498
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 4: seven again came out originally in nineteen sixty seven. In

499
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 4: the two thousands, in the century, the millennia, the two thousands,

500
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 4: Boeing begins to design a new version of this plane

501
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 4: from the last millennium, called the seven thirty seven Max.

502
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 4: For shareholders. Again, this is this is a great idea.

503
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 4: It's not just that, you know, building new planes is

504
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 4: expensive and this is cheaper because you're not spending the

505
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 4: money on building a new plane. There's a bunch of

506
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 4: other advantages for Boeing for this, and one of the

507
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 4: biggest is that you could tell everyone from you know,

508
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 4: the FAA to the airlines that the pilots that hey,

509
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 4: this is just a regular seven thirty seven. It's it's

510
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 4: just the same plane. You don't need to like retrain

511
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 4: your pilots to learn how our new systems work because

512
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 4: there's really like no new systems and that you know,

513
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 4: that costs money, so they don't want to do it.

514
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 4: You don't need to have the FAA do the regulatory

515
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 4: shit they would do for a new plane, or even

516
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 4: like a substantial change to like the original plane, which

517
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 4: you know, again costs money and time that Boeing does

518
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 4: not want to, you know, do. The problem is that,

519
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 4: you know. I tried to find a sort of delicate

520
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 4: way to say this, and then I realized you simply

521
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 4: should not do it like that. The problem is that

522
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 4: the seven thirty seven Max is a plane that is

523
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 4: trying to kill you. If you know anything about the story,

524
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 4: you're probably assuming that when I say this plane is

525
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 4: trying to kill you, I'm talking about the Maneuvering Characteristics

526
00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 4: Augmentation System or MCASTS, the piece of software that directly

527
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 4: cause the crashes, and to some extent, like I am

528
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 4: talking about mcasts. Well, we'll get into it in a second.

529
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 4: It absolutely did kill all those people. But I think

530
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 4: there's a problem with a lot of the way the

531
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 4: story has been covered, which is that a lot of

532
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 4: the coverage of this has been obsessively focused on the

533
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 4: software problem, specifically on MCAST. And I understand why people

534
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 4: focus on the software. It is the immediate cause of

535
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 4: the crash, But the real problem with the seven thirty

536
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 4: seven Max is that the actual physical plane is also

537
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 4: trying to kill you, and the software MCAST was developed

538
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,719
Speaker 4: to again stop the plane from trying to kill you.

539
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 4: Now that software is also trying to kill you. But

540
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 4: both the software and the physical plane are trying to

541
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 4: burdy you. So you know what do I mean when

542
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 4: I say the physical plane is trying to kill you.

543
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 4: For this, I'm going to turn to an actual engineer

544
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 4: and pilot, Gregory Travis, who wrote probably the best piece

545
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 4: in the technical details of this whole problem that I've

546
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 4: seen for I Triple E met Spectrum. I Triple E

547
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 4: is the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers. They know

548
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 4: what they're talking about spectrums their magazine. So the initial problem,

549
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 4: as Travis explains, was this, The original seven thirty seven

550
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 4: was designed for nineteen sixties engines. Modern airplanes have way

551
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 4: bigger engines because, due to a bunch of engineering stuff

552
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 4: that we're not going to get into here, large engines

553
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 4: are more efficient than small engines, and this is a

554
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 4: huge deal for aircraft which consume unbelievably large quantities of

555
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 4: extremely expensive fuel. The safe and sensible, but again expensive

556
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 4: option would have been to design a new aircraft to

557
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 4: replace the seven thirty seven that is actually designed to

558
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 4: accommodate the new giant engines. The chief skate option would

559
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 4: be just bolt the new giant engines onto the old

560
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 4: plane design. Now, the problem is that the only way

561
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 4: to do this is to move the engines forward. The

562
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 4: engines on the seven thirty seven are, you know, under

563
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 4: the wing, which is like the normal thing, But the

564
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 4: engines would no longer fit under the way because they

565
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 4: were too large, and moving the engines forward changes where

566
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 4: the thrust is coming from. Here's Travis quote. Now, when

567
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 4: pilots supplied power to the engine, the aircraft would have

568
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 4: a significant propensity to pitch up or raise its nose. Now, this,

569
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 4: as you might expect, is not good. It is quite bad.

570
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 4: I mean airplanes and Trumps talks about this. Airplanes do

571
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,320
Speaker 4: kind of naturally do this a little bit. This plane

572
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 4: does it way way more than it's supposed to. So

573
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 4: here's where things, unfortunately, get a bit technical. So the

574
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,760
Speaker 4: nose going up increases something called the angle of attack.

575
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 4: I'm going to read a description of this.

576
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 3: Fully.

577
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 4: Understanding exactly how the angle of attack works is not

578
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 4: enormously important to understanding the story. But you know, the

579
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 4: crux of this story is angle of attack centers not working,

580
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 4: so we have to explain it a little bit.

581
00:34:59,200 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 3: Quote.

582
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 4: The angle of attack is the angle between the wings

583
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 4: and the airflow over the wings. So if you want

584
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 4: to understand exactly what this is, go read the piece.

585
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 4: The important thing for our purposes is that if the

586
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 4: angle of attack gets too high, right, if the planes

587
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 4: are a level and it's flying normally, the angle of

588
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 4: attack is like zero, but the angle attack can get

589
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 4: higher as like you know, if you're not flying like level,

590
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,359
Speaker 4: and if the angle of attack gets too high, the

591
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 4: plane stalls, and this is one of the ways that

592
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 4: you crash a plane. Worse still, in the seven thirty

593
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 4: seven max, basically, the engine casings themselves can at high

594
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 4: angles of attack, work as a wing and produced lift,

595
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 4: and the lift they produce is well ahead of the

596
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 4: wings center of lift. Meeting the engine casings will cause

597
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,280
Speaker 4: the seven thirty seven at a high angle of attack

598
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 4: to go to a higher angle of attack. This is

599
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 4: aerodynamic mispractice of the worst kind. An airplane approaching an

600
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 4: aerodynamic stall cannot, under any circumstances, have the tendency to

601
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 4: go further into the stall. This is called quote dynamic instability,

602
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 4: and the only airplanes that exhibit that characteristic fighter jets

603
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 4: are also fitted with ejector seats. So let me let

604
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 4: me let me try to kind of like explain the

605
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 4: sort of crux of this well, A, they've they've managed

606
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 4: to position the engines in such a way the engines

607
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 4: can act as a wing, which is insane.

608
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 3: And B.

609
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 4: Once you get to a high enough angle of attack,

610
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:29,399
Speaker 4: which again, the higher the angle of attack you're at,

611
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 4: the more risk you're out installing, the plane starts trying

612
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 4: to kill you by making the angle of attack increase.

613
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 4: It is a feedback loop that means when you short

614
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 4: the stall, the airplane makes you stall more. Planes are

615
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 4: not supposed to do this. Again, and I cannot eplicize

616
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 4: this enough quote. This is called dynamic instability. And the

617
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 4: only airplanes which exhibit this characteristic fighter jets, are also

618
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 4: fitted with ejector seats. So again, this is the thing

619
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 4: that is dangerous enough that you get like regular, regular

620
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 4: civilian airplanes are not supposed to do this, they do

621
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 4: it on fighter jets because fighter jets are doing things

622
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 4: that planes aren't supposed to do. And you can leave

623
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 4: the plane if it fucks up it does something like this.

624
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 4: And the worst part about this is that you can

625
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 4: kick off this problem by trying to get the plane

626
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 4: going faster, like while it's going slow. What part of

627
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 4: flying a plane does it start slow, is kind of

628
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 4: at a high angle of attack, and then has to

629
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 4: go faster. Oh wait, take off the thing you have

630
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 4: to do every single time we fly. This is fucking batshit.

631
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:34,399
Speaker 4: No one would intentionally design a new airliner like this, right,

632
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 4: No one, not even modern I mean like Boeings, like

633
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 4: other airplanes, like even the modern ones. Even the Dreamliner

634
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 4: doesn't fucking do this right, It's completely nuts. The only

635
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 4: way that you could get something like this is as

636
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 4: a pure product of trying to bolt increasingly large engines

637
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 4: onto a plane from the sixties, because you are too

638
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 4: cheap to try to do anything new. But you know

639
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,760
Speaker 4: who isn't afraid of doing new things? It's the products

640
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 4: and says to support this podcast. We've never gotten a

641
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,839
Speaker 4: Boeing ad, but if it was gonna happen, I guess

642
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 4: it'd probably happened now, dear God. But instead of you know,

643
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 4: dealing with this problem by either making a new fucking

644
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 4: plane or figuring out some way to not have the

645
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 4: engines literally become wings, Boeing was like, ah, fuck it,

646
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 4: We'll just build some software that pushes the plane's nose

647
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 4: down if it starts doing this. Now, if your reaction

648
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 4: to hearing, let's put software on the plane that makes

649
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,320
Speaker 4: it fly towards the ground. Is wait, that's a terrible idea.

650
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 4: You have the right idea. These people did not have

651
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 4: the right idea. But sunningly, there's like a version of

652
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 4: this system that isn't like lethally unsafe. But com Pubbing

653
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,359
Speaker 4: did not design a version of this that is even

654
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 4: remotely safe. I don't know if that's more egregious than

655
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 4: designing an aircraft that has that amic CA instability, but

656
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 4: the way they implement this is egregious. They decided in

657
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 4: their infinite wisdom that the entire system would work on

658
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 4: a single sensor. And we need to note before we

659
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 4: start this, so this is we're gonna be talking about

660
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 4: angle attack sensors. They're kind of just like pieces of

661
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 4: metal that stick out the side of the plane and

662
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 4: they break a lot, and they break a lot because

663
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 4: flying a plane is like the worst thing you can

664
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 4: possibly do to a piece of equipment doesn't involve leaving

665
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 4: the atmosphere or putting it under the ocean. Yeah, so

666
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 4: here's from the Seattle Times, which the Scale Times actually

667
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 4: because you know, Boeing has traditionally been in Seattle like

668
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 4: does a lot of very very good coverage on this.

669
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 4: They have good sources. Yeah, from the Shade Times quote,

670
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 4: the most controversial deal of the MCAST design has been

671
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 4: the reliance on a single angle of attack sensor of

672
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 4: both of the deadly flights. Everything started with a faulty

673
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 4: sensor in the second crash in Ethiopia. The data trace

674
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 4: strongly suggested the sensor was deshortened an instant, likely by

675
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 4: a bird strike. There are two such sensors, one on

676
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,399
Speaker 4: either side of the fuselage. Why didn't Boeing, especially after

677
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 4: discarding the g forces a trigger, use both angle of

678
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 4: attack sensors. The thinking was that requiring input from two

679
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,320
Speaker 4: angle of attack sensors would mean that if one failed,

680
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:22,319
Speaker 4: the system would not function. Now, the article goes on

681
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:26,359
Speaker 4: to talk about how their justification for for why they

682
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 4: only use one sensor, and you know, they talked about

683
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 4: the safety and simplicity if not wanting to add complexity

684
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 4: to a system. You know, because if you have two

685
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 4: things that you're running for, it's slightly more complex than

686
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,879
Speaker 4: having one thing that you're running from. Now, this kind

687
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 4: of sounds reasonable at first glance, but first off, if

688
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 4: your plane has dynamic instability that causes it to snowball

689
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,839
Speaker 4: to stalling, and this software system to make it not

690
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 4: do that is so important you can't risk it not

691
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:53,799
Speaker 4: being on. If one of the two sensors breaks, then

692
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 4: maybe you shouldn't have you designed your plane like this.

693
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 4: And second, this entire system violates every design principle that

694
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 4: you see in sort of like Boeing's Good Aircraft Design

695
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 4: for simplicity and safety risk. And I want to go

696
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 4: back to that Spectrum article because it lays out how

697
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 4: this kind of thing is supposed to work. Quote, there

698
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 4: were two sets of angle of attack sensors and two

699
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 4: sets of pe hot tubes, one on either side of

700
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 4: the fuselage. Normal usage is to have the set on

701
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 4: the pilot side feed the instruments to the pilot side,

702
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 4: and the set on the copilot side feed the instrument

703
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 4: to the copilot side. That gives a state of natural

704
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,879
Speaker 4: redundancy and instrumentation that can be easily cross checked by

705
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 4: either pilot. If the copilot thinks his airspeed indicator is

706
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 4: acting up, he can look over at the pilot's airspeed

707
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 4: indicator and see if it agrees. If not, both pilot

708
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 4: and copilot can engage in a bit of triage, determine

709
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 4: which instrument is profane and which is sacred. Now, this

710
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 4: is great engineering, right, It is simple, it is redundant,

711
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 4: and it allows humans to sort out issues, you know,

712
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 4: And like, this is a product of what aerospace engineering

713
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 4: used to be, you know, and we still have this

714
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 4: in the world. But the fact that there are a

715
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 4: bunch of very very good engineers who have spent an

716
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,359
Speaker 4: enormously long time trying to work out how this kind

717
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 4: of stuff should work. Modern Boeing was like, well, you know,

718
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 4: instead of of our system where multiple centers can be

719
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 4: cross referenced by pilots, you know, and the pilots can

720
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 4: then disable the system. Fuck that, what if we insaid,

721
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 4: use a single sensor that can't be overridden. This is

722
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 4: a complete violation of Boeing design principle. The thing about

723
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 4: Boeing planes is that there isn't supposed to be like

724
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 4: automated shit running in the background that pilots don't know

725
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 4: about or don't know how to turn off. The pilot

726
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 4: is supposed to be in complete control of the plane,

727
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 4: you know, the old joke, And I mean I remember

728
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 4: hearing this like every once in a while like when

729
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 4: I was a kid, was that Airbus planes, which you know,

730
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 4: Airbus obviously is a rival to Boeing. Airbus planes were

731
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 4: quote diet by wire because you know, they didn't give

732
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 4: you control. The documentary that Frontline did called Boeing's Fatal Flaw,

733
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 4: which I didn't really use the source for this, but

734
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:01,399
Speaker 4: I kind I just this is this is the one

735
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 4: part that I remember from when I watched this in

736
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 4: twenty nineteen about the crash, described how like pilots trusted

737
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 4: that they were flying an aircraft designed by Boeing, so

738
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:10,800
Speaker 4: there would be a way to kill the system. And

739
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:12,800
Speaker 4: again there's something I remember like from talking to people

740
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 4: growing up, you know, so these pilots figure that there'd

741
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 4: be a way to kill the system. Those voices a

742
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 4: plane down and they were trying to find it, like

743
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:22,760
Speaker 4: they're trying to figure out how to turn the system

744
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,399
Speaker 4: off in the manual when they died, because they didn't

745
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,720
Speaker 4: realize the plane wasn't designed by Boeing engineers, was designed

746
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,720
Speaker 4: by Boeing shareholders. Going back to the process on how

747
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 4: this was added, the stated reason for again why you

748
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 4: don't want a second sensor is that it the theory

749
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 4: like adds complexity by adding a second sensor. But you know,

750
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 4: that's actually terrible reasoning from the perspective of engineering, like

751
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 4: of engineering in general, but also like from the perspective

752
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 4: of the engineering that the rest of the plane works on, right,

753
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 4: the rest of the plane works on different principles than this,

754
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 4: and it works well. And it's something that Travis describes

755
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,800
Speaker 4: as being a product of the destruction of Bowie's collective

756
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 4: knowledge base, but something I don't know, I don't know

757
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 4: to what extent, Travis, He's kind of writing about this,

758
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:13,760
Speaker 4: but I'm not sure that a lot of the people

759
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 4: writing about this like understand that, like this was the point, right,

760
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 4: destroying this kind of collective knowledge. This is something that

761
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 4: was done deliberately, right, This was the inevitable sort of

762
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 4: product of Boeing management trying to make the company quote

763
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 4: unquote run like a business. They were trying to destroy

764
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:36,280
Speaker 4: the interpersonal bonds that create the system of collective knowledge,

765
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 4: and they were trying to take power out of the

766
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 4: hands that the people who had that collective knowledge and

767
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 4: put it into the hands of people who you could

768
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 4: pay for really cheap and exploit more who did not

769
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 4: have access to that kind of information. Right, This is

770
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 4: a case for like, yeah, you're putting power in the

771
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 4: hands of software engineers instead of sort of aviation engineers

772
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 4: speaking of I don't know, taking power out of the

773
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 4: hands of the consumer and giving it to a corporation.

774
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 3: Here's ads. Now, if you're trying.

775
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 4: To make the company quote unquote run like a business,

776
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 4: what else would you do?

777
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 3: Oh?

778
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, you would not tell the pilots about this new

779
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 4: system that you've added to your airplane, because if you

780
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 4: talk about the system, everyone from you know, the FAA

781
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 4: to the airlines of the pilots unions might realize that

782
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 4: this is not the same plane as the seven thirty seven,

783
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 4: and that would require all sorts of stuff like again

784
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 4: re certifying the plane, trading pilots on simulators of your

785
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 4: new plane which.

786
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 3: Is not the old plane.

787
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,879
Speaker 4: It requires all sorts of stuff that would have very

788
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:51,320
Speaker 4: well could have prevented these crashes. But you know that

789
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 4: stuff all costs money, and Boeing doesn't fucking want to

790
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 4: spend money trying to make sure that its planes don't crash.

791
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 4: So when they moved on to this version of like

792
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 4: the seven thirty seven max right, pilots famously got I

793
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 4: think half an hour of iPad training and that maybe

794
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 4: I might have been an hour of iPad training, and

795
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 4: that training that they got on their iPad again, not

796
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 4: on a simulator, didn't even have any information about the

797
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 4: MCAST system that killed all these people. And the product

798
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 4: of this was that on October twenty ninth, twenty nineteen,

799
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 4: a seven thirty seven Max flying from Jakarta crashed as

800
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 4: the pilot was, you know, physically unable to fight the

801
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 4: control stick. And that that's another thing that's going on

802
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,320
Speaker 4: with this, you know, with his decision to put Howard

803
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,279
Speaker 4: in the hands of software or not pilots, is that

804
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 4: MCAST is also physically exerting control over the pilot stick

805
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:46,439
Speaker 4: and these people are trying to fight it, and they're

806
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 4: not able to fight it enough to stop the plane

807
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 4: from tipping down and crashing into the ground. And Boeing

808
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:58,760
Speaker 4: runs this really like pretty racist campaign blaming this pilot

809
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 4: who was not white, for this error to try to,

810
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 4: you know, cover up the fact that they fucking did this.

811
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:09,479
Speaker 4: And this maybe would have worked, except a few months later,

812
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,839
Speaker 4: Ethiopia Air Flight three ZO two went down and also

813
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 4: killed everyone on board, and you know, all told displayed

814
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 4: the Boeing seventy seven Max killed three hundred and forty

815
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 4: six people. The Seattle Times, which broke a lot of

816
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 4: the initial story, said quote. A variety of employees have

817
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:29,879
Speaker 4: described internal pressure to advance the Max to completion as

818
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,239
Speaker 4: Boeing hurried to catch up with the hot selling a

819
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 4: three twenty from rival Airbus. Mark Rabin, an engineer who

820
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 4: had flight testing work unrelated to the flight controls, said

821
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 4: there was always talk about how delays of even one

822
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 4: day can cause substantial amounts. Meanwhile, staff were expected to

823
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 4: stay in line. Rebin said it was all about loyalty.

824
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 4: Rebin said, I had managers tell me, don't rock the boat.

825
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 4: You don't want to be upsetting executives. And I find

826
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 4: this very funny because again, part of the whole jack

827
00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 4: Well strategy was to destroy the concept of loyalty to

828
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 4: like Boeing as a company. But you have to be

829
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 4: loyal to these shitty fucking executives because these executives, you know,

830
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:09,839
Speaker 4: have all of the power in this company and they

831
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 4: want to make sure they can just ring out every

832
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 4: single last drop of profit. And if you upset them,

833
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 4: they're going to fire you. And so the product of

834
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 4: this is this process that we've seen, which is that

835
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 4: this plane isn't being designed by aircraft. This is what

836
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 4: happens when shareholders design an airplane. And of course the

837
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 4: seven thirty seven Max continues to have problems right Earlier

838
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 4: this year, famously, the fucking door flew off inn Alaska

839
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 4: air flight. Multiple whistleblowers have come forward to describe I mean,

840
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 4: just like all of the things that you would have

841
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 4: expected from Boeing outsourcing shit to overwork and undertrain contractors.

842
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 4: Now several of those whistle blowers have died. When I

843
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 4: was originally doing this, I was considering basically making this

844
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 4: episode just about the whistleblowers being killed. But like I,

845
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:00,920
Speaker 4: I don't know, I don't really have any more information

846
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 4: than anyone else about these deaths. So I'm just going

847
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 4: to put on the record that if I go out here,

848
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 4: it was murder.

849
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I.

850
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 4: Think the more important story is this one, because I

851
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 4: think I think at this point everyone everyone kind of

852
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 4: knows that something is wrong with Boeing, And every day

853
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 4: we're getting more and more sort of specifics about every

854
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 4: single part of this production process that you know, used

855
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 4: to be entirely run by highly paid while at least

856
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 4: sort of highly paid and highly trained employees that's now

857
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 4: being run by a bunch of non unionized, underpaid contractors

858
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 4: who are producing shitty equipments. But what we're looking at

859
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:47,359
Speaker 4: here is Boeing coming apart somewhat more famously. I think

860
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 4: that the rescue flight is like being prepped, but a

861
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 4: bunch of astronauts have been stranded on the space station

862
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 4: because Boeing's launch craft was like veering off course. There

863
00:49:57,760 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 4: are a bunch of issues with it, and so NASA

864
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 4: just was just like, you know, fuck this. And the

865
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 4: most hideously galling part of this entire story is that

866
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 4: the craft that's going to pick up the astronauts is

867
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 4: made by fucking SpaceX, because we have reached a point

868
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 4: where an Elon Musk company is somehow designing rockets that

869
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 4: are you know, like designing spacecraft that are less likely

870
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:23,879
Speaker 4: to fucking explode than Boeing. That is, that is an

871
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 4: unbelievably depressing idea. And to close, I think we need

872
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:34,760
Speaker 4: to ask who killed these people, because it's not just Boeing.

873
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 4: Jack Welsh killed these people. Michael Milken killed these people.

874
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 4: Ronald Reagan killed these people, and in a way all

875
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 4: of us killed them because none of us stopped them.

876
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,479
Speaker 4: And these people could have been stopped at any point

877
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 4: in the process. From Reagan to Stonecipher to Kelly or Berg,

878
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 4: we could have stopped these people. To quote for a

879
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 4: final time, David Graeber, the ultimate hidden truth of this

880
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 4: world is that it is something that we make and

881
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 4: could just as easily make differently. I add only this,

882
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 4: If we don't make the world differently, people are going

883
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 4: to die. Why should these murderers be allowed to run

884
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,399
Speaker 4: the world. We know how to make planes. They don't

885
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 4: fall out of the sky. The people who are fucking

886
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:21,320
Speaker 4: running this planet apparently don't. It shouldn't be enormously controversial

887
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 4: to say that the people who know how to build

888
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,400
Speaker 4: airplanes should control how we fucking design and build airplanes.

889
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 4: In the nineteenth and twentieth century, this idea was called

890
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:32,840
Speaker 4: worker self management, and it was considered so dangerous that

891
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:34,840
Speaker 4: from Chile that sheop us to a jury at a

892
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:38,800
Speaker 4: Hungary to Korea, capitalist communists and fascists alight killed anyone

893
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,920
Speaker 4: who dared believe it. But now our choices are stark.

894
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 4: We either let these people continue to drop planes out

895
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 4: of the sky as the world, burns in our cities,

896
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:49,799
Speaker 4: sink into the sea, but we do something about it.

897
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 3: So what are you going to do?

898
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 6: Hey?

899
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:15,320
Speaker 2: This is it could happen here. I am Robert Evans.

900
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 2: This is a podcast about things falling apart. Most of

901
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 2: this episode is going to be me and James Stout

902
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 2: discussing the disaster in North Carolina and elsewhere as a

903
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 2: result of Hurricane Helene. But before we get into that,

904
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 2: and we'll be talking largely about what this means for

905
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 2: your own preparations for future disasters, what we can kind

906
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:39,760
Speaker 2: of learn initially from everything that's been happening. I wanted

907
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 2: to start with a few minutes of us talking to

908
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:45,360
Speaker 2: Margaret Kiljoy, who is on the ground in the Asheville

909
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:49,759
Speaker 2: area doing disaster relief work right now. And obviously the

910
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:52,319
Speaker 2: audio here is not up to our usual quality, but

911
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 2: it's only about five minutes, and then you will get

912
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 2: James and I talking crystal clear into your ears. So

913
00:52:58,520 --> 00:52:59,760
Speaker 2: here is Margaret.

914
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 5: Hi.

915
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 7: Everyone, I just got on the ground about two hours

916
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 7: ago and immediately have been basically running around with my

917
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:12,759
Speaker 7: van delivering food to different places just because van did

918
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:13,399
Speaker 7: van thing.

919
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,880
Speaker 5: And it's I mean, it's intense.

920
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 7: Everyone is having an intense time, but also at the

921
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 7: same time, there's like, you know, more people are out

922
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 7: walking around and riding bikes, and you know, there's hundreds

923
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,800
Speaker 7: of people gathering at every place that's passing out food

924
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 7: and water, and there's a very kind of community spirit

925
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 7: happening right now.

926
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 5: I'm actually recording this from up in Marshall.

927
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 7: Which is a small town immediately north of Asheville that

928
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 7: also has a mutual Aid distribution hub.

929
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:43,319
Speaker 5: We just came up here to drop stuff off, and

930
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:45,959
Speaker 5: even in the twenty minutes that I've been here.

931
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,160
Speaker 7: Other people have come with pickup trucks full of harm

932
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 7: reduction supplies and diapers and just all the things that

933
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 7: people need. And everyone is trapped on basically little islands.

934
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:58,879
Speaker 7: Right There's a very different style of flood than when

935
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 7: you have like a coastal flood. And what's happened is

936
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 7: that the houses that are near the river have been

937
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 7: destroyed and the roads a lot of them have been destroyed,

938
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:07,799
Speaker 7: and a lot of them went underwater for a long time.

939
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 7: It's all the infrastructure is down, but many of the houses,

940
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 7: at least as I record this, seem to be intact

941
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 7: and then doing well and what it is that everyone

942
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 7: is just trapped and isolated. Most people don't have food, water, sewage,

943
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 7: or even cell signal, although cell signal is kind of

944
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 7: the first thing to come back, and power is starting

945
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:29,280
Speaker 7: to filter back in, and we're hoping that some places

946
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 7: are maybe getting watered. But one of the things that's

947
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:35,239
Speaker 7: kind of come up is that, again, because it's in

948
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:37,360
Speaker 7: the mountains, it's a very different setup, it's a very

949
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:40,839
Speaker 7: different culture and community. And one of the things that's

950
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:42,880
Speaker 7: happened is that, I mean a lot of people have wells,

951
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 7: and so immediately the problem has been more about distribution

952
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 7: of water and also getting generators to.

953
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:49,760
Speaker 5: People who have well so that they can pump.

954
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:52,399
Speaker 7: You know, a friend of mine got a generator pretty

955
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:54,759
Speaker 7: quickly and you know, pull a thousand gallons out of

956
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 7: their well right away to get and distribute around. And

957
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:03,319
Speaker 7: there's you know, just while I was waiting outside my

958
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 7: friend's house, someone drove by and asked us if we

959
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 7: needed water, and then asked us if we knew about

960
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 7: each of the neighbors and who did and didn't have water.

961
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean, one of the things that makes

962
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 2: me think of is like having the generator, having the

963
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 2: well that's great, the kind of thing that maybe people

964
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:24,719
Speaker 2: wouldn't think about as much as having the ability to

965
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 2: put a thousand gallons of water in something. Yes, totally,

966
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:30,120
Speaker 2: it seems like it was also crucial and is probably

967
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 2: would have been lowered down the list for a lot

968
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 2: of people. But there's really no replacing it when you

969
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 2: need it, totally.

970
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 5: And but one of the things that again, I mean,

971
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 5: I'm not sureing to say that everything's fine here, it's

972
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 5: very much fine.

973
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:44,040
Speaker 7: For example, the only federal response that anyone is talking

974
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 7: about is that ice is already in the area, So

975
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:49,560
Speaker 7: before anyone had been given food by the federal government,

976
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 7: they have sent ice to detain people and question people.

977
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:55,440
Speaker 5: At least that is the word on the ground.

978
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 7: Obviously, you know, details and truths come later when you're

979
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 7: in a crisis situation, but we do know that ice

980
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:02,799
Speaker 7: is on the ground, and no one I've talked to

981
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:05,480
Speaker 7: has seen much in the way a federal response besides

982
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 7: law enforcement. But one of the things that's happened here

983
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:12,239
Speaker 7: is that a lot of people have pickup trucks in Appalachia,

984
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:14,239
Speaker 7: and so a lot of people have you know, you

985
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:16,920
Speaker 7: call them water buffalos, the big water tanks that you

986
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 7: can put in a pickup truck or a trailer. I

987
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,880
Speaker 7: definitely left this feeling, you know, my first you know,

988
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 7: I drove with my van full of stuff and on

989
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 7: the highway and being passed by pickup trucks pulling flatbeds

990
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:31,279
Speaker 7: full of palettes of water and things like that. But

991
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 7: then even yeah, in the city, people are driving around

992
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:37,160
Speaker 7: in trucks and filling them up with water and delivering them.

993
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:40,319
Speaker 7: But don't get me wrong, yeah, if you're preparing, think

994
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:42,279
Speaker 7: about how to deliver water. Even some of the things

995
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:45,040
Speaker 7: for me, for example, the city government has been doing

996
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:46,920
Speaker 7: some things and there are places where people can go

997
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 7: and fill up water containers, but they don't have the

998
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 7: water containers. So the people who were prepared by having

999
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,120
Speaker 7: a couple five gallon toats in their basement are in

1000
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:57,279
Speaker 7: a much better position. And so that's like some of

1001
00:56:57,320 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 7: the things that I brought.

1002
00:56:58,239 --> 00:56:59,120
Speaker 5: For some of my friends.

1003
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:02,280
Speaker 7: It is litergally just a couple five gallon water containers

1004
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 7: so that people.

1005
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:03,759
Speaker 5: Can go get them filled up.

1006
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 7: Now.

1007
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 2: And obviously you're talking about when we're thinking about the

1008
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:09,759
Speaker 2: places that people are able to drive around, where the

1009
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:12,680
Speaker 2: places that you've been reaching are hit pretty hard. But

1010
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 2: we also then have these more isolated mountain communities that

1011
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 2: both seem to have suffered a lot more physical damage,

1012
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:21,920
Speaker 2: although that's not entirely clear at this moment, but are

1013
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 2: certainly not accessible in.

1014
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 3: The same way.

1015
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 2: And I think that's one of those things we're still

1016
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:29,920
Speaker 2: going to be waiting to hear, like how extreme it is.

1017
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 2: But like we talk a little bit on the episode

1018
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:34,920
Speaker 2: before this about people using burrows to deliver food and

1019
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 2: water in places where vehicles can't even reach.

1020
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1021
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:41,520
Speaker 7: Yeah, And one of the things also, you know, one

1022
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:43,439
Speaker 7: of the things that went out on the mutual aid

1023
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 7: list that I'm on is people are saying, hey, if

1024
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 7: you have your ATV, bring down your ATV, you know,

1025
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 7: and that makes complete sense if you the listener are

1026
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:55,400
Speaker 7: listening to this, don't just drive down with supplies and

1027
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:57,920
Speaker 7: if you are plugged into a mutual age to.

1028
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:00,360
Speaker 3: Just roll to Ashville in your palan arts.

1029
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:06,000
Speaker 7: Yeah yeah, but but yeah, no, one of the hardest

1030
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:08,600
Speaker 7: things has been getting the supplies, you know. I mean,

1031
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:11,400
Speaker 7: the disaster relief is just it's just logistics, and the

1032
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 7: same way that war is just logistics.

1033
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 3: You know.

1034
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 7: It's like, how do you get things from one place

1035
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 7: to another. And what people have set up is all

1036
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 7: of these you know, you centralize the acquisation of supplies

1037
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 7: and then you decentralize getting them out.

1038
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 5: But yeah, people have been working.

1039
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 7: I'm going to know more about what people have been

1040
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 7: doing to get things out, but I've already talked with

1041
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:33,440
Speaker 7: people or heard from people who you know, we're getting

1042
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:36,440
Speaker 7: rescued by people with handsaws, right. And then one of

1043
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:38,960
Speaker 7: the main things that people are doing is that there's

1044
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:41,920
Speaker 7: chainsaw crews, mutual aid chainsaw crews going around. One of

1045
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 7: the big asks that I came with a lot of

1046
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:48,080
Speaker 7: was bar and chain oil, you know. And and it's

1047
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 7: a little bit hard because gas is also until just recently,

1048
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 7: gas is starting to come back online now, but getting

1049
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 7: gas for a chainsaw or an ATV or your vehicle

1050
00:58:58,840 --> 00:58:59,600
Speaker 7: has been tricky.

1051
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:01,400
Speaker 5: But people been working on that too.

1052
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1053
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:04,400
Speaker 2: Well, Margaret, I'm not going to take up more of

1054
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 2: your time while you try to help in the wake

1055
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 2: of a disaster, but thank you for being on the ground.

1056
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 2: Good luck to you and everyone else who's out there.

1057
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 2: We will be hearing more from you and more about

1058
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:19,120
Speaker 2: the specifics of what's happened in North Carolina and elsewhere

1059
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:23,040
Speaker 2: in the wake of the hurricane next week. So thank

1060
00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 2: you and thank everybody there.

1061
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:25,240
Speaker 3: Good luck.

1062
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you.

1063
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:28,440
Speaker 3: That is done.

1064
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:32,160
Speaker 2: I am now going to move on with our previously

1065
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 2: recorded episode.

1066
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 3: Here is James and Me.

1067
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:39,680
Speaker 2: Oh, welcome back to it could happen here a podcast

1068
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 2: where it's happened for some chuck of our listeners who

1069
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 2: are probably not listening right now because as we record

1070
00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 2: this on Monday, the.

1071
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:53,960
Speaker 3: First technically a Tuesday, we're just.

1072
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 2: Now getting word that internet has come back on, like

1073
00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 2: mobile internet has come back on to parts of Asheville

1074
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:03,480
Speaker 2: and North Carolina that were in communicado for several days

1075
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:09,680
Speaker 2: after Hurricane Eleen tore through. You've heard something about this,

1076
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:12,439
Speaker 2: I'm hoping. I'm different things from friends about how much

1077
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:15,920
Speaker 2: news attention there seems to be on this. I'm seeing

1078
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:18,320
Speaker 2: it a lot, but I'm seeing it largely through social

1079
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 2: But the gist of it is, I mean, there's a

1080
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,600
Speaker 2: photo I came across right before getting on here where

1081
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 2: there was a memorial marker for the nineteen sixteen flood

1082
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 2: in Ashville that was knocked out by what used to

1083
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:33,680
Speaker 2: be a road and was now nothing but rushing water

1084
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 2: and mud.

1085
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:36,880
Speaker 3: Beautiful three out of four.

1086
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 2: Highways into Ashville are down. I heard yesterday from people

1087
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:44,439
Speaker 2: who were coming in and doing an AID drop that

1088
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:47,479
Speaker 2: what had been previously a thirty minute drive took twelve

1089
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:50,800
Speaker 2: and a half hours. From the state of the roads

1090
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:54,160
Speaker 2: and the number of checkpoints and stuff. All of this

1091
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:59,480
Speaker 2: is pretty common stuff for a natural disaster. Obviously amped

1092
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 2: up in civil because this disaster was correspondingly worse than

1093
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 2: even most natural disasters tend to.

1094
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 3: Be, you know, yes, in this country. Yeah.

1095
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:12,200
Speaker 2: I was just looking through, just doing a little bit

1096
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:14,600
Speaker 2: of googling before we got on, and I found a

1097
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 2: Reddit post from the Asheville subreddit from two years ago

1098
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:20,960
Speaker 2: saying Asheville is apparently the number one city in the

1099
01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:24,200
Speaker 2: United States to be a climate haven, according to the CNBC,

1100
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 2: although that article it just made the list of best

1101
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:31,160
Speaker 2: climate cities, but the original post has been deleted. I

1102
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:33,360
Speaker 2: don't know if that was earlier or as a result

1103
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 2: of this, but that is one of like the side

1104
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 2: stories here is that Ashville is not We're not talking

1105
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:43,440
Speaker 2: about one of these coastal cities in Florida that everyone

1106
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:46,000
Speaker 2: is known as doomed for forever, right, We're not talking

1107
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 2: about New Orleans, which lovely city, great history, doomed as fuck,

1108
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:52,280
Speaker 2: and everyone has known it for quite a while. We're

1109
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:55,440
Speaker 2: talking about places that are many miles inland and that

1110
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:57,480
Speaker 2: something like two thousand feet elevation.

1111
01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:01,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's certainly not below sea or even at sea level.

1112
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an inland, mountainous community. It's just not the

1113
01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:10,200
Speaker 2: kind of threat that people are used to having here. Yeah,

1114
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 2: and the devastation has been pretty total, like whole communities

1115
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:18,120
Speaker 2: wiped out. I think the death toll from the county

1116
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:20,760
Speaker 2: Ashville is in Let me let me pull this up

1117
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:22,640
Speaker 2: to make sure I'm not getting it wrong. I've just

1118
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:25,520
Speaker 2: now pulled up a story from thirty minutes ago on

1119
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 2: the Independent that says, yeah, at least one hundred and

1120
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:33,320
Speaker 2: forty three people have been killed. Yeah, that's a total

1121
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:37,320
Speaker 2: death toll from Helene forty people in Buncombe County, where

1122
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:41,520
Speaker 2: Ashville is six hundred people unaccounted for. Governor Roy Cooper

1123
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:43,840
Speaker 2: has told CNN that there are communities that were wiped

1124
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 2: off the map. Kind of the first thing that I noticed,

1125
01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:50,920
Speaker 2: you know, outside of the footage coming in was friends

1126
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:53,080
Speaker 2: of mine. Because I've spent a decent amount of time

1127
01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:56,080
Speaker 2: in Asheville. I have friends on the East Coast, including

1128
01:02:56,160 --> 01:02:59,280
Speaker 2: our own Margaret Kiljoy, who has a lot more friends

1129
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:02,120
Speaker 2: in Asheville, and I was in a couple of different

1130
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:04,960
Speaker 2: signal loops where people were trying to contact their people,

1131
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:08,120
Speaker 2: and there was a line from one of the folks

1132
01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:10,800
Speaker 2: I was chatting with who had reached out to multiple

1133
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:13,720
Speaker 2: people in the area and said, I have not heard

1134
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:17,240
Speaker 2: anything from anyone in Nashville in hours. Nothing is getting

1135
01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:20,200
Speaker 2: in and nothing is getting out, And that seems to

1136
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:25,400
Speaker 2: be consistent with everyone's experience. Starlink was largely not functional.

1137
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:28,880
Speaker 2: Starlink doesn't work very well when the weather's really bad.

1138
01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:32,960
Speaker 2: SAT phones seem to have had some efficacy. I know

1139
01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:35,080
Speaker 2: some people were getting messages in and out, but they

1140
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 2: weren't super reliable because SAT phones also are reliant upon

1141
01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:43,320
Speaker 2: climactic conditions. Right, It's certainly better than just trusting your

1142
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:45,800
Speaker 2: normal cell phone, but it's not going to do great

1143
01:03:45,840 --> 01:03:49,960
Speaker 2: when you've got a fucking hurricane dumping half an ocean

1144
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:52,640
Speaker 2: on your head. So that was the first thing I

1145
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:56,080
Speaker 2: was thinking about, because we talk a lot about disaster preparedness,

1146
01:03:56,120 --> 01:03:59,000
Speaker 2: and we talk a lot about having stuff that would

1147
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:01,880
Speaker 2: have been useful in this that people who were prepared

1148
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:05,000
Speaker 2: and had water set aside and food set aside were

1149
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:07,880
Speaker 2: certainly in a better situation, because those both very quickly

1150
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:10,760
Speaker 2: became problems. I mean, I heard a devastating story of

1151
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:13,520
Speaker 2: an old folks home that was completely cut off from

1152
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:19,040
Speaker 2: the outside and didn't have enough water or food. Hoping

1153
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:21,280
Speaker 2: that story ends as well as possible, but there's a

1154
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:24,880
Speaker 2: lot of stories like that. But even outside of that,

1155
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:27,840
Speaker 2: there were people who were prepared, who had food and water,

1156
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 2: but who wound up stuck on the roofs of their

1157
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:34,200
Speaker 2: house because the water just came in so quickly there

1158
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:37,280
Speaker 2: was no chance to really get much other than maybe

1159
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 2: a bag. And when you're stuck up on there, like

1160
01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:43,360
Speaker 2: what are you going to do if your SAT phone

1161
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:45,280
Speaker 2: or you don't have a SAT phone and that doesn't

1162
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 2: work and there's no internet and there's no cell service. Well,

1163
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 2: that's why we're going to start today talking about ham radios,

1164
01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:56,560
Speaker 2: because those motherfuckers there's actually a I'll see if I

1165
01:04:56,600 --> 01:04:59,680
Speaker 2: can pull it up through this like that has been

1166
01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:01,920
Speaker 2: the most reliable way for people in the area to

1167
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:05,760
Speaker 2: communicate with the outside world, because if it is possible

1168
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:10,000
Speaker 2: to communicate using technology, you can do it with Ham. Yeah, right,

1169
01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:12,600
Speaker 2: Like that's just that's just how Ham radios be.

1170
01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:16,800
Speaker 8: Yeah, they don't need to see the sky, like yeah, yeah.

1171
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:18,400
Speaker 3: They don't give a fuck it.

1172
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:22,080
Speaker 2: If there is any way to communicate via technology with

1173
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:24,080
Speaker 2: people in a disaster, you will be able to do

1174
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:27,240
Speaker 2: it with a Ham radio. So let's chat about that, James.

1175
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:28,960
Speaker 2: You have more experience with this than I do. This

1176
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:31,440
Speaker 2: is something I have been working on getting into, but

1177
01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:34,360
Speaker 2: I certainly am not very knowledgeable on the matter. So

1178
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:37,400
Speaker 2: we'll start like, what what do people need to think

1179
01:05:37,480 --> 01:05:40,560
Speaker 2: about when it comes to like actually getting set up

1180
01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:44,080
Speaker 2: to communicate with a Ham radio, Because there's definitely you

1181
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:47,600
Speaker 2: could just go buy a Boofang or something like that,

1182
01:05:47,720 --> 01:05:49,920
Speaker 2: Like you can get ahead. They're not expensive. This is

1183
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:53,200
Speaker 2: actually a very affordable thing to have right now. Kind

1184
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:56,120
Speaker 2: of the most recommended model is the UV nine R Pro,

1185
01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:59,880
Speaker 2: which is eight watt instead of five and waterproof, That's what.

1186
01:05:59,880 --> 01:06:01,480
Speaker 8: I was going to say. And you can charge it

1187
01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:03,440
Speaker 8: off USBC, which is really nice.

1188
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:06,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're what like thirty something bucks. Yeah, they're like

1189
01:06:07,440 --> 01:06:10,240
Speaker 2: you can get them cheaper in bulk.

1190
01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:13,040
Speaker 8: I think you steel to get them cheaper on Alley Express,

1191
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:14,800
Speaker 8: but seems like they're kind of hanging them up in

1192
01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:17,120
Speaker 8: charging customs, so you end up not getting them cheaper.

1193
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:19,240
Speaker 3: Yeah. So yeah, for real basic stuff.

1194
01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:21,600
Speaker 8: I think you do need to be licensed to operate

1195
01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:24,720
Speaker 8: these radios on certain bands, right, yes, And that's something

1196
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:28,680
Speaker 8: that you you can, I believe in a case of

1197
01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:29,640
Speaker 8: emergency you can.

1198
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:31,120
Speaker 3: You can operate on any band.

1199
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:33,800
Speaker 2: No one's going to arrest you for a legal youth

1200
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:36,040
Speaker 2: unlicensed used to a ham radio if you're trying to

1201
01:06:36,040 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 2: get people rescued from a flood. Yeah, right, Like that said,

1202
01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:42,959
Speaker 2: you should not be learning how to use a ham

1203
01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:44,880
Speaker 2: radio when you're hiding on your roof.

1204
01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:48,400
Speaker 8: Yeah yeah, yeah, Like this is like you know the

1205
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:50,120
Speaker 8: people who buy guns and put them under their bed

1206
01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:52,040
Speaker 8: and never shoot them and expect to be right because

1207
01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:55,439
Speaker 8: the fucking marksman in a crisis or by medical gear

1208
01:06:55,440 --> 01:06:58,200
Speaker 8: and never train with it again. Right, these things you

1209
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:00,880
Speaker 8: want to practice before. So we use these that bought it.

1210
01:07:01,040 --> 01:07:04,520
Speaker 8: We use radios to communicate. When they were higher numbers

1211
01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:07,640
Speaker 8: in Cucumber, my friends and I put a massive antenna

1212
01:07:07,720 --> 01:07:09,480
Speaker 8: on the roof of the youth center where we were.

1213
01:07:09,720 --> 01:07:11,280
Speaker 8: I know a lot of listeners have been out there

1214
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:14,160
Speaker 8: and they've probably seen antenna that we put up, and

1215
01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:16,000
Speaker 8: then I was using a radio on my truck, and

1216
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:18,560
Speaker 8: then we also all had personal radios, right because cell

1217
01:07:18,600 --> 01:07:20,600
Speaker 8: phone signal is crap out there, and it was the

1218
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:22,919
Speaker 8: only way for us to communicate and it worked really well.

1219
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:25,360
Speaker 8: So the things that you need if you want to

1220
01:07:25,360 --> 01:07:27,320
Speaker 8: get started in this first of all, some kind of

1221
01:07:27,480 --> 01:07:31,440
Speaker 8: education or a license. There are tons of local groups.

1222
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:34,200
Speaker 8: Hand people fucking love to be ham radio people. They

1223
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:36,200
Speaker 8: love to talk about hand radio. They love to teach

1224
01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:39,640
Speaker 8: you to do ham radio so like, and it's not

1225
01:07:39,720 --> 01:07:41,920
Speaker 8: like a hobby, you know, firearms people love to talk

1226
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:44,080
Speaker 8: about firearms, but lots of them are really toxic people.

1227
01:07:44,160 --> 01:07:46,800
Speaker 8: I haven't found that hand radio is premised on talking

1228
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:49,120
Speaker 8: to people all over the place and often very.

1229
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:50,600
Speaker 3: Few people killed with ham radio.

1230
01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:54,640
Speaker 8: Yeah, I'm sure it's possible. But if you can find

1231
01:07:54,640 --> 01:07:56,600
Speaker 8: a local club, but that's a great way to start.

1232
01:07:56,640 --> 01:07:58,800
Speaker 8: They can clean you in on stuff. But I think

1233
01:07:59,040 --> 01:08:02,040
Speaker 8: to begin with your need someone to talk to, right, Like,

1234
01:08:02,640 --> 01:08:04,280
Speaker 8: if you want to practice with your ham radio, you

1235
01:08:04,320 --> 01:08:05,880
Speaker 8: need to be talking to other people on it. So

1236
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:08,280
Speaker 8: you can just go on to different bands, different repeaters

1237
01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:10,840
Speaker 8: and do that, or you can get your friends and

1238
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:11,600
Speaker 8: study together.

1239
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:13,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, get your license together.

1240
01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:15,760
Speaker 2: I too bow things, you know, Yeah, give one to

1241
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:19,120
Speaker 2: somebody who you live close to but not right next to,

1242
01:08:19,400 --> 01:08:21,080
Speaker 2: and work on it with them.

1243
01:08:21,160 --> 01:08:23,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, work on like, oh how far this workd you know?

1244
01:08:23,960 --> 01:08:26,240
Speaker 8: Like I am one of the former guests for the

1245
01:08:26,280 --> 01:08:30,280
Speaker 8: podcast James Corderra from Board the Kindness. He and I

1246
01:08:30,320 --> 01:08:32,280
Speaker 8: were doing that. Not so do't go talking to each

1247
01:08:32,280 --> 01:08:34,960
Speaker 8: other from our houses, but yeah you can. You can

1248
01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:39,080
Speaker 8: certainly get into this pretty cheap. I have a business license,

1249
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:41,960
Speaker 8: which is another option for people. I would suggest first

1250
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:44,599
Speaker 8: getting your ham operator's lecense and then going from there.

1251
01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:47,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it's called a radio technicians license, right, Like

1252
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:49,759
Speaker 2: that's the most basic because there's three levels.

1253
01:08:49,760 --> 01:08:52,720
Speaker 3: If I'm not a mistaken Yeah, I believe. So it's

1254
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:53,880
Speaker 3: been a while since I did that.

1255
01:08:54,280 --> 01:08:57,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's Radio Technicians General and then Amateur

1256
01:08:57,520 --> 01:08:58,200
Speaker 2: extra if.

1257
01:08:58,120 --> 01:09:01,320
Speaker 8: The notes, Yeah, all right, it still And then in

1258
01:09:01,400 --> 01:09:04,600
Speaker 8: terms of cost, like the size of your antenna is

1259
01:09:04,640 --> 01:09:07,040
Speaker 8: what's going to determine, you know, how far you can

1260
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:09,720
Speaker 8: transmit and how you can receive along with like line

1261
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:12,519
Speaker 8: of sight, right, it's about side just as big as

1262
01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:14,920
Speaker 8: one possible, So you want to be a size queen

1263
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:17,560
Speaker 8: like you can get yourself a really big antenna, I

1264
01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:20,640
Speaker 8: would say, if you're using those handheld radios. So the

1265
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:24,479
Speaker 8: company called Nagoya that make pretty decent radio antennas that

1266
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:27,080
Speaker 8: work with that UV nine R that I use. I

1267
01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:30,240
Speaker 8: have like a telescoping one and we've had pretty good

1268
01:09:30,280 --> 01:09:33,120
Speaker 8: luck with that, and then I also use one in

1269
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:35,320
Speaker 8: my bit. So I've hard mounted a radio inside my

1270
01:09:35,400 --> 01:09:37,800
Speaker 8: truck and I have an antenna that uses the frame

1271
01:09:37,880 --> 01:09:40,400
Speaker 8: of the truck as part of the antenna, and I

1272
01:09:40,400 --> 01:09:41,320
Speaker 8: can get really good.

1273
01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:43,519
Speaker 3: Signal with that. Yeah, that makes sense if you're just

1274
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:44,320
Speaker 3: doing it at home.

1275
01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:46,680
Speaker 8: Yeah, put something on your roof, Like you can get

1276
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:48,200
Speaker 8: a pretty good antenna on your roof, you know, and

1277
01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:50,200
Speaker 8: it's not that hard and you can get signal.

1278
01:09:50,280 --> 01:09:51,479
Speaker 3: Yeah. Much further.

1279
01:09:51,720 --> 01:09:53,920
Speaker 2: I've been recommended a little book that you can get

1280
01:09:53,960 --> 01:09:56,719
Speaker 2: for twenty bucks in kindle form or it's like thirty

1281
01:09:56,720 --> 01:10:00,360
Speaker 2: bucks for the spiral bound, which looks pretty durable. Haven't

1282
01:10:00,439 --> 01:10:05,479
Speaker 2: received mine yet. Yeah, the ar rl HAM Radio License Manual,

1283
01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:08,000
Speaker 2: which is kind of what I was advised to buy

1284
01:10:08,160 --> 01:10:11,200
Speaker 2: and read through and the advice that I got and

1285
01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:12,320
Speaker 2: you can correct me here.

1286
01:10:12,360 --> 01:10:14,519
Speaker 3: But this seemed pretty hard to argue.

1287
01:10:14,520 --> 01:10:17,040
Speaker 2: With is that like the primary benefit to doing the

1288
01:10:17,080 --> 01:10:20,080
Speaker 2: training and getting the license formally rather than just buying it,

1289
01:10:20,160 --> 01:10:23,040
Speaker 2: is it also teaches you how to fix problems if

1290
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:27,160
Speaker 2: you're trying to get this thing to work in a stressful,

1291
01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:28,280
Speaker 2: dangerous situation.

1292
01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:30,880
Speaker 8: Yeah, you want to be familiar with it if you're

1293
01:10:30,880 --> 01:10:32,760
Speaker 8: going to rely on it, right, just like anything else,

1294
01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:35,800
Speaker 8: this ham study dot org as well, which helps you.

1295
01:10:35,800 --> 01:10:37,639
Speaker 8: You can also do something called a software to find

1296
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:40,519
Speaker 8: radio SDR. I've used those before as well.

1297
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:43,639
Speaker 2: I'm sure we'll Yeah, we'll do a more dedicated episode

1298
01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:45,320
Speaker 2: to this kind of thing once I feel a degree

1299
01:10:45,320 --> 01:10:48,439
Speaker 2: of competence too. But I think what's really important with

1300
01:10:48,479 --> 01:10:50,760
Speaker 2: this is because I can tell you right now, as

1301
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:52,960
Speaker 2: much time as I spend, like thinking about water and

1302
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:56,040
Speaker 2: having a bunch of different water treatment options and spare

1303
01:10:56,080 --> 01:10:58,160
Speaker 2: water stored, and I have like I literally have at

1304
01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:00,400
Speaker 2: this point years of dried food on the problem property.

1305
01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:04,520
Speaker 2: I can food all the time. I have animals, obviously,

1306
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:07,080
Speaker 2: I have guns, you know, I do stuff like, you know,

1307
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:10,280
Speaker 2: go foraging in the woods and shit. I had completely

1308
01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:12,280
Speaker 2: because it's a pain in the air. It seemed like

1309
01:11:12,280 --> 01:11:14,280
Speaker 2: a pain in the ass. There's a lot of numbers.

1310
01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:19,280
Speaker 2: I hate fucking numbers, and I am choosing to use this.

1311
01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:22,439
Speaker 2: And we're starting out with this as coverage of Halle

1312
01:11:22,479 --> 01:11:24,240
Speaker 2: not because like this is the end of it.

1313
01:11:24,280 --> 01:11:24,559
Speaker 3: We're not.

1314
01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:27,719
Speaker 2: We are going to look at what's actually been happening

1315
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:30,200
Speaker 2: in the community. We have people Margaret Killjoys down there

1316
01:11:30,280 --> 01:11:32,760
Speaker 2: right now, we have some other like friends of the

1317
01:11:32,800 --> 01:11:35,479
Speaker 2: pod who are in the area doing relief work. Now

1318
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:38,519
Speaker 2: it's just too early for those stories, and we don't

1319
01:11:38,520 --> 01:11:40,400
Speaker 2: want to like really bug people who are.

1320
01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:41,519
Speaker 3: Doing useful work down there.

1321
01:11:41,600 --> 01:11:44,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, but this is the first thing that terrified me

1322
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:48,320
Speaker 2: was being like, well, fuck, I have been negligent in

1323
01:11:48,360 --> 01:11:51,240
Speaker 2: my preparations because I don't have comms lockdown.

1324
01:11:52,040 --> 01:11:54,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, definitely, Like and people underestimated because it's not cool

1325
01:11:54,920 --> 01:11:56,639
Speaker 8: and fun, right, Like guns are fun.

1326
01:11:56,720 --> 01:11:58,439
Speaker 2: I have a sat phone, So I was like, that's

1327
01:11:58,479 --> 01:12:02,360
Speaker 2: probably fine, right been wouldn't have been an Ashville Yeah.

1328
01:12:02,240 --> 01:12:04,439
Speaker 8: Or people think that they can have stylink now and

1329
01:12:04,479 --> 01:12:06,400
Speaker 8: I think, yeah, you know, people, it's a lot of

1330
01:12:06,520 --> 01:12:09,839
Speaker 8: emphasis on that, but I think, yep, going back to basics,

1331
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:12,599
Speaker 8: we were talking about this in our group chat. But

1332
01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:15,920
Speaker 8: for things that you need, having a primary, secondary and

1333
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:20,160
Speaker 8: emergency way of doing that makes sense. So yes, your phone,

1334
01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:22,200
Speaker 8: your SAT phone. You know, I think Robert and I

1335
01:12:22,240 --> 01:12:24,760
Speaker 8: both use gum and in reaches like a SAT communicator.

1336
01:12:24,880 --> 01:12:26,800
Speaker 2: I have an in reach and I also have a

1337
01:12:26,840 --> 01:12:30,880
Speaker 2: Motorola smartphone that is a SAT phone through Uh god,

1338
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:33,479
Speaker 2: I'm forgetting the name of the service, but a separate service,

1339
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:35,560
Speaker 2: like I have two different SAT phone services.

1340
01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:38,160
Speaker 3: And then you got your ham radio as your backup.

1341
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:41,360
Speaker 3: Well after that you got smoke signals and pigeons right.

1342
01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:45,520
Speaker 2: Well, that that gets us to a general idea of preparation,

1343
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:48,000
Speaker 2: which I was kind of when I started. When I

1344
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:52,880
Speaker 2: got advice from a colleague about war reporting, like the best.

1345
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:54,439
Speaker 2: It's still to this day some of the best advice

1346
01:12:54,439 --> 01:12:56,920
Speaker 2: I've ever got is two is one and one is none.

1347
01:12:57,040 --> 01:12:57,160
Speaker 9: Right.

1348
01:12:57,200 --> 01:12:59,519
Speaker 2: If you have one way of doing something and a disaster,

1349
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:02,479
Speaker 2: you are very close to having no way of doing

1350
01:13:02,479 --> 01:13:06,599
Speaker 2: it right, which brings me to transit because one of

1351
01:13:06,640 --> 01:13:09,960
Speaker 2: the thing that is probably going to wind up being

1352
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:14,360
Speaker 2: the defining characteristic of this disaster in memory is the

1353
01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:17,880
Speaker 2: degree to which the ability to reach people in an

1354
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:21,040
Speaker 2: area that is we're not talking, you know, there definitely

1355
01:13:21,040 --> 01:13:23,080
Speaker 2: are a lot of rural communities impacted by this, But

1356
01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:26,120
Speaker 2: like Ashville is a significant place, We're not talking the

1357
01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:29,000
Speaker 2: middle of nowhere. We are not talking about people living

1358
01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:31,400
Speaker 2: on the edge of the world, right. We are talking

1359
01:13:31,439 --> 01:13:34,080
Speaker 2: about like one of the what was what was up

1360
01:13:34,120 --> 01:13:36,080
Speaker 2: to this point, one of like the hippest and more

1361
01:13:36,080 --> 01:13:37,640
Speaker 2: popular parts of the Northeast.

1362
01:13:37,880 --> 01:13:38,040
Speaker 6: Right.

1363
01:13:38,840 --> 01:13:43,360
Speaker 2: The immediacy with which the ability to reach people on

1364
01:13:43,439 --> 01:13:47,280
Speaker 2: the ground was wiped out, and obviously while the storm

1365
01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:48,760
Speaker 2: was going on, there was no way to reach them

1366
01:13:48,760 --> 01:13:51,400
Speaker 2: from air. Like you know, a helicopter can get places now,

1367
01:13:51,479 --> 01:13:54,560
Speaker 2: but during the worst of the flooding, you're not reliably

1368
01:13:54,600 --> 01:13:57,120
Speaker 2: getting a fucking chopper into a lot of these places.

1369
01:13:57,320 --> 01:14:01,519
Speaker 2: So people were stranded very quick, much faster than they

1370
01:14:01,560 --> 01:14:04,640
Speaker 2: had been prepared for. You should be thinking about like,

1371
01:14:05,200 --> 01:14:08,880
Speaker 2: oh shit, I could get flooded, because you probably could.

1372
01:14:08,960 --> 01:14:11,439
Speaker 2: Most of the people listening to this. There's not a

1373
01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:15,200
Speaker 2: zero percent chance a freak storm floods your community, right,

1374
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:18,360
Speaker 2: even if it never has before. It's not exactly a

1375
01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:21,559
Speaker 2: common problem in Asheville, right. The last massive flood thing

1376
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:24,400
Speaker 2: was like nineteen sixteen, So we're not talking about a

1377
01:14:24,400 --> 01:14:28,080
Speaker 2: place that's used to flooding all the time. But likewise,

1378
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:31,040
Speaker 2: like it's not just flooding, that fire could do this, right,

1379
01:14:31,520 --> 01:14:34,800
Speaker 2: I am thinking the last kind of near disaster we

1380
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:37,200
Speaker 2: had where I was is in twenty twenty. You know

1381
01:14:37,240 --> 01:14:39,120
Speaker 2: where I live right now. I am in the city

1382
01:14:39,160 --> 01:14:42,040
Speaker 2: of Portland, and we were like three or four blocks

1383
01:14:42,080 --> 01:14:44,880
Speaker 2: away from where the evacuation orders had spread during the

1384
01:14:44,920 --> 01:14:48,360
Speaker 2: fires in twenty twenty. It was not a foregone conclusion

1385
01:14:48,360 --> 01:14:50,599
Speaker 2: that they would stop before reaching the city.

1386
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:51,200
Speaker 3: You know.

1387
01:14:51,280 --> 01:14:54,160
Speaker 2: This is also I think people in southern California. Yeah, definitely,

1388
01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:57,600
Speaker 2: there's a shocking number of communities, communities with money that

1389
01:14:57,680 --> 01:15:00,840
Speaker 2: are really built up that if a f hit at

1390
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:05,200
Speaker 2: the wrong time of year, there's no stopping it. And like,

1391
01:15:05,320 --> 01:15:08,720
Speaker 2: you need to be thinking about how am I preparing

1392
01:15:08,840 --> 01:15:13,040
Speaker 2: to be informed during the seasons where this is like

1393
01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:18,280
Speaker 2: of highest likelihood, because the only real safety there is

1394
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:23,439
Speaker 2: paying attention to what's happening and building an understanding of

1395
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:26,160
Speaker 2: how quickly things can go badly so that you get

1396
01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:29,160
Speaker 2: out ahead of time, because if the disaster just hits,

1397
01:15:29,680 --> 01:15:32,360
Speaker 2: you're not going to get on the highway and drive

1398
01:15:32,439 --> 01:15:34,920
Speaker 2: through a fire or through a flood. I don't care

1399
01:15:34,920 --> 01:15:37,200
Speaker 2: if you have a fucking Safari snorkel. I'm looking at

1400
01:15:37,240 --> 01:15:41,439
Speaker 2: those waters. You are not getting the most kitted out

1401
01:15:41,520 --> 01:15:44,400
Speaker 2: land rover on God's green Earth was not getting through

1402
01:15:44,439 --> 01:15:45,280
Speaker 2: some of those waters.

1403
01:15:45,320 --> 01:15:48,040
Speaker 8: I'm sorry, Yeah, you need a submarine. Like I remember

1404
01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:50,840
Speaker 8: my house flooded when I was probably seventeen eighteen, and

1405
01:15:50,880 --> 01:15:53,519
Speaker 8: I remember that. A couple of the things I remember,

1406
01:15:53,560 --> 01:15:56,280
Speaker 8: first of all, was like, most of your shit is

1407
01:15:56,280 --> 01:15:59,040
Speaker 8: not that important to you. I remember being seventeen and

1408
01:15:59,080 --> 01:16:01,599
Speaker 8: being like, oh man, we got it back then. Having

1409
01:16:01,640 --> 01:16:03,840
Speaker 8: a widescreen TV was a big deal for us. And

1410
01:16:03,920 --> 01:16:06,400
Speaker 8: just yeah, then thinking like, oh, my name is an

1411
01:16:06,400 --> 01:16:08,120
Speaker 8: eighty something, like I fuck the TV.

1412
01:16:08,320 --> 01:16:09,679
Speaker 3: I need to check off those people, okay.

1413
01:16:09,880 --> 01:16:13,679
Speaker 8: And then people completely overestimating the capability of their vehicles

1414
01:16:13,680 --> 01:16:15,439
Speaker 8: in floodwater, yeah, which.

1415
01:16:15,439 --> 01:16:16,880
Speaker 3: Which they always will do.

1416
01:16:17,080 --> 01:16:19,280
Speaker 2: It will always be the people with the biggest trucks

1417
01:16:19,280 --> 01:16:22,120
Speaker 2: that cause the most problems for everyone else to overestimate

1418
01:16:22,160 --> 01:16:23,559
Speaker 2: where their vehicles can get them.

1419
01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:26,120
Speaker 8: Yes, And like you can die in your vehicle crossing

1420
01:16:26,160 --> 01:16:27,479
Speaker 8: relatively shallow floodwater.

1421
01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:29,919
Speaker 3: This isn't yeah, you know, it's a serious business.

1422
01:16:30,160 --> 01:16:33,000
Speaker 2: Or get burned to death, which happens all the time,

1423
01:16:33,040 --> 01:16:36,400
Speaker 2: has happened very recently in communities in like California, you know,

1424
01:16:36,479 --> 01:16:42,160
Speaker 2: people just get fucking incinerated, So don't be that person.

1425
01:16:42,520 --> 01:16:43,120
Speaker 3: Pay attention.

1426
01:16:43,600 --> 01:16:45,760
Speaker 2: Like one of the things to pay attention to is

1427
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:48,240
Speaker 2: like when the warning started to come in. There will

1428
01:16:48,280 --> 01:16:50,840
Speaker 2: be good breakdowns fairly soon in places like the New

1429
01:16:50,920 --> 01:16:53,880
Speaker 2: York Times on when warnings came in and how much

1430
01:16:53,920 --> 01:16:55,439
Speaker 2: time people actually had.

1431
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:55,760
Speaker 4: Ye.

1432
01:16:56,000 --> 01:17:00,640
Speaker 2: But don't gamble with stuff like this fucking dry to

1433
01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:05,080
Speaker 2: high ground or you know, drive to whatever seems like

1434
01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:07,920
Speaker 2: the safest place and fucking crash in your car if

1435
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:11,000
Speaker 2: you have to. And this is why again, when it

1436
01:17:11,000 --> 01:17:13,200
Speaker 2: does come to survival stuff, I'm a big fan. If

1437
01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:16,200
Speaker 2: you have the money, spend two hundred bucks on one

1438
01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:18,599
Speaker 2: of those buckets of dried food. Because you can keep

1439
01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:21,760
Speaker 2: a bucket of dried food and five gallons of water

1440
01:17:21,800 --> 01:17:23,720
Speaker 2: by the door, you can throw that son of a

1441
01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:26,880
Speaker 2: bitch in your car and carrying the waters might be

1442
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:28,040
Speaker 2: a pain in the ass, but if you have to

1443
01:17:28,040 --> 01:17:30,680
Speaker 2: get out and run, those buckets of dried food with

1444
01:17:30,760 --> 01:17:33,360
Speaker 2: a weak or so of food in them are not

1445
01:17:33,520 --> 01:17:36,000
Speaker 2: that hard to carry. You hold it under your arm,

1446
01:17:36,080 --> 01:17:37,960
Speaker 2: you keep a backpack on your back, and you run

1447
01:17:38,000 --> 01:17:41,120
Speaker 2: like a son of a bitch to whatever evacuation exists,

1448
01:17:41,360 --> 01:17:41,880
Speaker 2: and you'll have.

1449
01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:43,080
Speaker 3: Some food with you. Yeah.

1450
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:45,720
Speaker 2: You know, like this is one of the ways I

1451
01:17:45,760 --> 01:17:48,720
Speaker 2: think about stuff like this. You know, it's obviously preferable

1452
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:51,439
Speaker 2: if you can just hunker down in your fucking house

1453
01:17:51,600 --> 01:17:54,559
Speaker 2: full of gear and equipment. But I'm sure there were

1454
01:17:54,640 --> 01:17:56,880
Speaker 2: I'm sure there were people who had to evac or

1455
01:17:56,880 --> 01:17:59,920
Speaker 2: who got flooded out in Ashville and their house that

1456
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:01,400
Speaker 2: got flooded out was full.

1457
01:18:01,240 --> 01:18:03,360
Speaker 3: Of survival gear. I know for a fact that that

1458
01:18:03,479 --> 01:18:04,200
Speaker 3: happened to people.

1459
01:18:04,320 --> 01:18:07,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, and it happens everywhere to people right talking of happening,

1460
01:18:07,400 --> 01:18:10,599
Speaker 8: but what should be happening right now is an advertising break.

1461
01:18:10,680 --> 01:18:13,960
Speaker 2: Oh shit, should have happened ten fucking minutes ago, James, Yeah,

1462
01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:15,840
Speaker 2: but he but here we are.

1463
01:18:25,080 --> 01:18:25,639
Speaker 3: We're back.

1464
01:18:26,439 --> 01:18:26,640
Speaker 5: You know.

1465
01:18:26,720 --> 01:18:30,040
Speaker 2: When it comes to talking about like the degree to

1466
01:18:30,120 --> 01:18:36,559
Speaker 2: which people's high tech and expensive equipment, including vehicles, has

1467
01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:40,000
Speaker 2: run out very quickly, one of the stories that has

1468
01:18:40,040 --> 01:18:42,840
Speaker 2: been most interesting to me is of like one of

1469
01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:45,360
Speaker 2: the first groups of people to be able to get

1470
01:18:45,400 --> 01:18:49,280
Speaker 2: supplies and significant quantities to some of these isolated mountain

1471
01:18:49,320 --> 01:18:54,000
Speaker 2: regions was a guy with a shitload of donkeys. Oh yeah,

1472
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:57,280
Speaker 2: the mule team. The mule team guy he was one second.

1473
01:18:57,560 --> 01:19:00,280
Speaker 2: Let me pull this up. I've got this bookmarked. Yeah,

1474
01:19:00,360 --> 01:19:03,400
Speaker 2: Mountain Mule Packer Ranch, which I'm guessing is just some

1475
01:19:03,439 --> 01:19:05,479
Speaker 2: sort of like a you know, you go there to

1476
01:19:05,560 --> 01:19:08,439
Speaker 2: vacation and do like mule trips, mule hights and stuff.

1477
01:19:08,439 --> 01:19:10,639
Speaker 8: It's kind of people who want to backpack or take

1478
01:19:10,680 --> 01:19:12,280
Speaker 8: like a really luxurious camping set up.

1479
01:19:12,360 --> 01:19:12,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1480
01:19:13,040 --> 01:19:15,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, they've been doing mule trains into a town call

1481
01:19:15,720 --> 01:19:19,280
Speaker 2: into a Weaverville. It looks like and yeah, like a

1482
01:19:19,400 --> 01:19:22,160
Speaker 2: mule can carry. It's something at least based on this

1483
01:19:22,240 --> 01:19:25,519
Speaker 2: people article I'm looking at, they're saying about two hundred

1484
01:19:25,560 --> 01:19:29,439
Speaker 2: pounds of supplies per animal, which you know is actually

1485
01:19:29,600 --> 01:19:31,960
Speaker 2: very significant. That's not a whole lot more than you're

1486
01:19:31,960 --> 01:19:34,240
Speaker 2: going to be fitting in like a compact car at

1487
01:19:34,320 --> 01:19:37,000
Speaker 2: least obviously a truck's carring more. But you're not getting

1488
01:19:37,040 --> 01:19:39,720
Speaker 2: a truck into a lot of these areas. And it

1489
01:19:39,880 --> 01:19:41,960
Speaker 2: just kind of goes to I'm not saying like everyone

1490
01:19:42,000 --> 01:19:45,040
Speaker 2: go buy a mule. That's not really practical for most people,

1491
01:19:45,120 --> 01:19:49,240
Speaker 2: although if you've got some land, maybe considered getting the mule.

1492
01:19:49,720 --> 01:19:53,000
Speaker 2: They're real handy. They do come in very useful in

1493
01:19:53,120 --> 01:19:56,519
Speaker 2: situations like this yeah, thinking companion animals as well. I

1494
01:19:56,520 --> 01:19:58,840
Speaker 2: think people haven't, Like, if you have a hole or whatever,

1495
01:19:59,200 --> 01:20:01,280
Speaker 2: I'll pack us too, but they can't carry so much,

1496
01:20:01,360 --> 01:20:03,720
Speaker 2: but I'll pack up. Packing is a thing, and in

1497
01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:07,200
Speaker 2: like Montana, in places like that, Yeah, they're great. You know,

1498
01:20:07,200 --> 01:20:09,440
Speaker 2: if you've got to fight in the mountains of Afghanistan

1499
01:20:09,479 --> 01:20:12,200
Speaker 2: a mule, you know you can. You can do a

1500
01:20:12,200 --> 01:20:15,160
Speaker 2: lot there, So very useful in a wide variety of situations.

1501
01:20:15,200 --> 01:20:17,800
Speaker 2: And a lot of our listeners are actively fighting in

1502
01:20:17,840 --> 01:20:20,639
Speaker 2: Afghanistan right now, so that that could be very handy

1503
01:20:20,680 --> 01:20:21,120
Speaker 2: for you.

1504
01:20:21,240 --> 01:20:24,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, proud of you guys. Yeah. Yeah.

1505
01:20:25,160 --> 01:20:27,400
Speaker 2: America said we're done there, but you said.

1506
01:20:27,200 --> 01:20:27,519
Speaker 1: Not me.

1507
01:20:27,840 --> 01:20:32,479
Speaker 3: It can happen here. You can't stop me going back

1508
01:20:32,479 --> 01:20:33,120
Speaker 3: with my mule.

1509
01:20:34,439 --> 01:20:36,799
Speaker 8: That's why this is the official pocast of the Islamic

1510
01:20:36,840 --> 01:20:38,280
Speaker 8: State Couruson Province.

1511
01:20:38,360 --> 01:20:40,760
Speaker 2: That is that's that's uh, oh, James, we shouldn't be

1512
01:20:40,760 --> 01:20:47,000
Speaker 2: saying stuff. We can hopefully hopefully the government's busy.

1513
01:20:46,280 --> 01:20:49,640
Speaker 3: Well apparently because they ain't doing ship in Ashville.

1514
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:52,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, you know, I saw a lot of One

1515
01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:55,960
Speaker 2: of the more heartbreaking posts that I saw was this

1516
01:20:55,960 --> 01:21:00,679
Speaker 2: this lady posting a picture of her parents and her daughter,

1517
01:21:01,560 --> 01:21:04,920
Speaker 2: who was six on the roof with them, and she

1518
01:21:05,080 --> 01:21:07,400
Speaker 2: was like a few minutes later the roof collapsed and

1519
01:21:07,439 --> 01:21:11,400
Speaker 2: they were dead. Like she apparently managed to just kind

1520
01:21:11,439 --> 01:21:15,479
Speaker 2: of barely survive and get out of there. But there's like,

1521
01:21:15,520 --> 01:21:18,720
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people whose last act was

1522
01:21:18,760 --> 01:21:22,759
Speaker 2: trying to get a good photo or video of their location,

1523
01:21:23,160 --> 01:21:26,519
Speaker 2: you know, to post on social media. I don't want

1524
01:21:26,520 --> 01:21:28,200
Speaker 2: there to be a lot of people who made the

1525
01:21:28,240 --> 01:21:30,800
Speaker 2: decision to stay longer than they should have because they

1526
01:21:30,840 --> 01:21:33,040
Speaker 2: wanted to get a good shot for social media. But

1527
01:21:33,080 --> 01:21:35,080
Speaker 2: I'm sure that number wasn't zero. I'm not saying that's

1528
01:21:35,080 --> 01:21:38,040
Speaker 2: what happened to that lady. There's also a matter of like, well,

1529
01:21:38,040 --> 01:21:39,519
Speaker 2: if you are stuck up there, what else are you

1530
01:21:39,560 --> 01:21:41,880
Speaker 2: going to fucking do but document it? Yeah, I have

1531
01:21:41,960 --> 01:21:45,000
Speaker 2: some sympathy for that. Yeah, I'm not trying to shit

1532
01:21:45,080 --> 01:21:47,479
Speaker 2: on these people, but it is one of these there's

1533
01:21:47,479 --> 01:21:50,960
Speaker 2: that post that goes around every time there's a disaster

1534
01:21:51,240 --> 01:21:54,880
Speaker 2: like this, where you know, climate collapse is watching a

1535
01:21:54,920 --> 01:21:57,800
Speaker 2: series of horrifying videos on cell phones until one day

1536
01:21:57,800 --> 01:21:59,080
Speaker 2: it's you holding the phone.

1537
01:21:59,320 --> 01:22:01,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that that.

1538
01:22:03,200 --> 01:22:05,760
Speaker 2: Not that we shouldn't think about, Like what's happened, you know,

1539
01:22:06,080 --> 01:22:09,639
Speaker 2: to North Carolina, to Tennessee, to these affected communities. There's

1540
01:22:09,680 --> 01:22:12,679
Speaker 2: places in Georgia that got hard hit. Obviously that's a focus.

1541
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:16,760
Speaker 2: But from a practical standpoint, the only good that you

1542
01:22:16,800 --> 01:22:19,519
Speaker 2: can make of a disaster like this is to try

1543
01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:22,400
Speaker 2: and pay attention to what happened, to what went wrong

1544
01:22:22,520 --> 01:22:25,559
Speaker 2: for other people, and make yourself less vulnerable, because the

1545
01:22:25,600 --> 01:22:28,120
Speaker 2: less vulnerable you are one of the things that we

1546
01:22:28,200 --> 01:22:30,720
Speaker 2: see every time there's something like this hits, you know,

1547
01:22:31,080 --> 01:22:32,519
Speaker 2: and this is I would call this a hand of

1548
01:22:32,560 --> 01:22:35,200
Speaker 2: God event. Right, You had a bunch of communities that

1549
01:22:35,280 --> 01:22:38,920
Speaker 2: were a part of the developed, you know whatever term

1550
01:22:39,200 --> 01:22:42,760
Speaker 2: first world one day, and we're completely cut off from

1551
01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:46,600
Speaker 2: everyone else on the planet the next. And all you

1552
01:22:46,680 --> 01:22:50,280
Speaker 2: can really do in the immediate aftermath of something like

1553
01:22:50,360 --> 01:22:53,640
Speaker 2: that is try to figure out what can I do

1554
01:22:53,800 --> 01:22:57,080
Speaker 2: to make it less likely that I'm a strain on

1555
01:22:57,560 --> 01:23:00,400
Speaker 2: resources during an event like this, And obviously the best

1556
01:23:00,400 --> 01:23:02,320
Speaker 2: way is to not be there, because then you're not

1557
01:23:02,360 --> 01:23:05,360
Speaker 2: a strain on resources. But the next best thing is

1558
01:23:05,360 --> 01:23:08,000
Speaker 2: to have to pay attention to what went wrong for

1559
01:23:08,080 --> 01:23:10,760
Speaker 2: other people and try to make yourself less vulnerable to that,

1560
01:23:10,840 --> 01:23:13,559
Speaker 2: because not only does that protect you, but you protect

1561
01:23:13,560 --> 01:23:18,040
Speaker 2: other people by not needing the resources that rescuers can

1562
01:23:18,080 --> 01:23:20,559
Speaker 2: bring to bear, which will be terribly limited in the

1563
01:23:20,600 --> 01:23:21,959
Speaker 2: immediate wake of the disaster.

1564
01:23:22,520 --> 01:23:25,400
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think like in terms of resources. Obviously, Margaret

1565
01:23:25,400 --> 01:23:27,679
Speaker 8: does an excellent podcast quotedly if the world is dying,

1566
01:23:27,800 --> 01:23:30,479
Speaker 8: we can hear more about that stuff. I think the

1567
01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:32,880
Speaker 8: thing that you can buy, I guess right now, if

1568
01:23:32,920 --> 01:23:35,200
Speaker 8: you have like thirty to fifty bucks and you want

1569
01:23:35,439 --> 01:23:38,240
Speaker 8: to be a little bit more prepared, because I understand

1570
01:23:38,280 --> 01:23:39,880
Speaker 8: that for some people this will be an oh shit

1571
01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:42,960
Speaker 8: moment right where this is something that it ought to be. Yeah, no,

1572
01:23:43,000 --> 01:23:46,360
Speaker 8: it really should be. Like you know, you've seen a

1573
01:23:46,439 --> 01:23:49,839
Speaker 8: city that thought it was completely invulnerable, be very vulnerable.

1574
01:23:50,160 --> 01:23:53,559
Speaker 8: You can buy a Sooya Squeeze for like thirty bucks

1575
01:23:53,600 --> 01:23:55,559
Speaker 8: right now. You can set them up in a off

1576
01:23:55,560 --> 01:23:58,360
Speaker 8: a five gun and bucket yep, or you can use

1577
01:23:58,400 --> 01:24:00,320
Speaker 8: the bag that comes with You can buy back from

1578
01:24:00,360 --> 01:24:03,599
Speaker 8: a company called knock cnoc, which is a much better bag.

1579
01:24:03,720 --> 01:24:06,839
Speaker 8: I would recommend that, but like you can spend thirty

1580
01:24:06,840 --> 01:24:09,719
Speaker 8: bucks there. Like we said before, you should have backup

1581
01:24:09,720 --> 01:24:12,960
Speaker 8: and other water filtering options. But yeah, there are whole

1582
01:24:12,960 --> 01:24:15,600
Speaker 8: countries that use Sayer squeezes, right, the Marshall Islands. I

1583
01:24:15,680 --> 01:24:18,840
Speaker 8: made a thing about Liberia uses in too, And you

1584
01:24:18,880 --> 01:24:21,599
Speaker 8: can filter rain water with that, and you could pretty

1585
01:24:21,640 --> 01:24:23,439
Speaker 8: much have a supply of water for as long as

1586
01:24:23,479 --> 01:24:24,559
Speaker 8: you need it if you backflush it.

1587
01:24:24,760 --> 01:24:26,639
Speaker 2: Right, You've got like a family of four and a house.

1588
01:24:26,680 --> 01:24:28,880
Speaker 2: You have one or two five gallon buckets full at

1589
01:24:28,880 --> 01:24:31,400
Speaker 2: any time, and you have a Sawyer squeeze, and you

1590
01:24:31,439 --> 01:24:34,599
Speaker 2: can you know, in this kind of situation, you could

1591
01:24:34,680 --> 01:24:38,400
Speaker 2: keep filling it up with you know, disaster water for

1592
01:24:38,520 --> 01:24:40,840
Speaker 2: lack of a better word. And in that sort of

1593
01:24:40,880 --> 01:24:43,800
Speaker 2: situation too, you can double up and triple up, which

1594
01:24:43,800 --> 01:24:47,880
Speaker 2: I always recommend in an emergency. I've nearly diet of dysentery,

1595
01:24:47,960 --> 01:24:50,599
Speaker 2: so I don't fuck around with this. Yeah, get a

1596
01:24:50,640 --> 01:24:54,360
Speaker 2: filterration option that's not the only one. Filter your water

1597
01:24:54,520 --> 01:24:57,800
Speaker 2: and add iodine tablets too, right, like you know, filter

1598
01:24:57,880 --> 01:24:59,680
Speaker 2: your water and use something.

1599
01:24:59,479 --> 01:25:01,479
Speaker 3: Like a UV.

1600
01:25:01,000 --> 01:25:05,120
Speaker 2: Light, Yeah, a stery pan, sterry pan. You know, don't

1601
01:25:05,160 --> 01:25:08,120
Speaker 2: just rely on one method. Double up, there's no You're

1602
01:25:08,160 --> 01:25:09,920
Speaker 2: not going to have a lot to do other than

1603
01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:12,120
Speaker 2: make sure your water doesn't kill you. And that's a

1604
01:25:12,160 --> 01:25:13,840
Speaker 2: real good thing to focus on.

1605
01:25:14,120 --> 01:25:16,680
Speaker 8: Yeah, you could even use bleachhouse help bleach. Just make

1606
01:25:16,680 --> 01:25:19,160
Speaker 8: sure you'll each sucking around it's not scented, et cetera.

1607
01:25:19,400 --> 01:25:21,280
Speaker 2: But yeah, you want to look up that ratio just

1608
01:25:21,600 --> 01:25:23,400
Speaker 2: or not fucking up the ratio with them. But like, yeah,

1609
01:25:23,439 --> 01:25:25,679
Speaker 2: that's a great you know. I keep a I usually

1610
01:25:25,760 --> 01:25:28,759
Speaker 2: keep one or two just big fifty gallon barrels of water.

1611
01:25:29,320 --> 01:25:33,960
Speaker 2: There's like water stabilization tablets or in liquid that you

1612
01:25:33,960 --> 01:25:36,479
Speaker 2: can drop in there because water doesn't store indefinitely. But

1613
01:25:36,520 --> 01:25:39,880
Speaker 2: you can use bleach too. People do I keep at

1614
01:25:39,880 --> 01:25:41,439
Speaker 2: all times. I just have this as part of my

1615
01:25:41,479 --> 01:25:43,160
Speaker 2: outdoor kit, but it's a good thing to have for

1616
01:25:43,200 --> 01:25:46,559
Speaker 2: a disaster. You can have a camelback with one company

1617
01:25:46,600 --> 01:25:49,160
Speaker 2: that makes them as called catod In Kata.

1618
01:25:48,720 --> 01:25:51,400
Speaker 3: D Ynn Catadyne. Yeah, Catadyne.

1619
01:25:51,400 --> 01:25:53,280
Speaker 2: Sorry, but there's a couple of different water filters that

1620
01:25:53,320 --> 01:25:55,960
Speaker 2: you can screw directly onto your camelback. So you pour

1621
01:25:56,040 --> 01:25:58,240
Speaker 2: water in the camel back and by the time you

1622
01:25:58,280 --> 01:26:00,519
Speaker 2: get the water in your mouth, it has on through

1623
01:26:00,800 --> 01:26:04,439
Speaker 2: a very serious filter arrangement, and that again, that could

1624
01:26:04,439 --> 01:26:06,000
Speaker 2: be part of your I pick this up and I

1625
01:26:06,080 --> 01:26:08,240
Speaker 2: take this with me, and no matter where I go,

1626
01:26:08,320 --> 01:26:10,200
Speaker 2: I could pour water into the camel back and me

1627
01:26:10,240 --> 01:26:11,840
Speaker 2: and my family can drink off of it, or we

1628
01:26:11,840 --> 01:26:13,840
Speaker 2: have two camelbacks or whatever. You know, I have four

1629
01:26:13,920 --> 01:26:17,000
Speaker 2: leaders on you. This is not free, but it's not

1630
01:26:17,160 --> 01:26:21,559
Speaker 2: prohibitively expensive. It's certainly not like buying nice firearms, right,

1631
01:26:21,600 --> 01:26:24,599
Speaker 2: and it is considerably likelier to save your life than

1632
01:26:24,600 --> 01:26:25,360
Speaker 2: an AAR fifty.

1633
01:26:25,840 --> 01:26:26,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1634
01:26:26,120 --> 01:26:28,720
Speaker 8: Yeah, there are magazines of ammunition that would cost you

1635
01:26:28,760 --> 01:26:32,160
Speaker 8: more than this would. And like yeah, yeah, with all

1636
01:26:32,160 --> 01:26:34,760
Speaker 8: of these things, once it's dirty, it's not clean, right,

1637
01:26:34,800 --> 01:26:37,559
Speaker 8: So like your camelback bladder is now dirty water bladder

1638
01:26:37,560 --> 01:26:41,559
Speaker 8: and stuff, especially in a disaster situation, to be mixing

1639
01:26:41,560 --> 01:26:43,840
Speaker 8: a match, just get a shoppie and run it.

1640
01:26:43,960 --> 01:26:46,840
Speaker 3: Likewise, I have a jerry can.

1641
01:26:46,840 --> 01:26:48,720
Speaker 8: I just wrote the bleach amounts on it with a

1642
01:26:48,800 --> 01:26:50,960
Speaker 8: paint pen and it's there now, and now I know,

1643
01:26:51,120 --> 01:26:54,680
Speaker 8: like none of this stuff is hugely complicated, and like

1644
01:26:54,760 --> 01:26:57,000
Speaker 8: everything else, right, like the more familiar you are with it,

1645
01:26:57,080 --> 01:26:59,519
Speaker 8: that if you go camping a lot. Yeah, like Robert

1646
01:26:59,640 --> 01:27:01,400
Speaker 8: was saying, you already have a system in place, so

1647
01:27:01,479 --> 01:27:02,640
Speaker 8: you're already ready for that.

1648
01:27:02,880 --> 01:27:03,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1649
01:27:03,080 --> 01:27:05,000
Speaker 2: I keep something called a grail on me, which is

1650
01:27:05,080 --> 01:27:07,599
Speaker 2: just like a cup that has a filter. Like it's

1651
01:27:07,640 --> 01:27:10,719
Speaker 2: a two part like almost kind of a thermos type deal,

1652
01:27:11,120 --> 01:27:13,040
Speaker 2: and you fill the bottom part with water and you

1653
01:27:13,120 --> 01:27:15,799
Speaker 2: press the top part in and it fills an internal

1654
01:27:16,240 --> 01:27:19,400
Speaker 2: reservoir with filtered water. And then I'll drop a tablet

1655
01:27:19,400 --> 01:27:22,439
Speaker 2: in there or something and you know, or I'll pour

1656
01:27:22,520 --> 01:27:25,080
Speaker 2: that into a larger thing and put the tablet in there.

1657
01:27:25,640 --> 01:27:28,880
Speaker 2: But you can always have multiple options for water. And

1658
01:27:28,920 --> 01:27:31,240
Speaker 2: it's the kind of thing where like there's no reason

1659
01:27:31,320 --> 01:27:33,840
Speaker 2: not to a camelback and a filter plus a bunch

1660
01:27:33,840 --> 01:27:36,800
Speaker 2: of pills, plus some sort of like canned pump rig

1661
01:27:37,240 --> 01:27:40,519
Speaker 2: you're maybe out one hundred and fifty bucks. You have

1662
01:27:40,560 --> 01:27:42,880
Speaker 2: three different methods of keeping your water clean.

1663
01:27:43,000 --> 01:27:45,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think they're surtplusing out a lot of the

1664
01:27:45,120 --> 01:27:47,760
Speaker 8: MSR Guardians so the US military used to buy. You

1665
01:27:47,760 --> 01:27:50,080
Speaker 8: can get those pretty chair those are great, like I have.

1666
01:27:50,240 --> 01:27:53,200
Speaker 8: I was just in the dairying gap. I used one

1667
01:27:53,240 --> 01:27:57,280
Speaker 8: of those and then chemical treatment and like, yeah, I'm okay,

1668
01:27:58,479 --> 01:28:01,400
Speaker 8: And you can if you can also bulk process with

1669
01:28:01,439 --> 01:28:03,639
Speaker 8: the gravity guiding, you could do ten leads at a time.

1670
01:28:04,280 --> 01:28:06,760
Speaker 2: You know, we're in this kind of conversation. We are

1671
01:28:06,800 --> 01:28:10,400
Speaker 2: triaging by what we think is the most important stuff

1672
01:28:10,439 --> 01:28:14,280
Speaker 2: which is in a disaster like this, water in comms,

1673
01:28:14,439 --> 01:28:18,040
Speaker 2: and I kind of keep those as relatively equal because obviously,

1674
01:28:18,120 --> 01:28:22,439
Speaker 2: like you can survive without comms in some situations, yeah,

1675
01:28:22,479 --> 01:28:25,519
Speaker 2: and you can't in any without water. But if you

1676
01:28:25,600 --> 01:28:27,600
Speaker 2: are in a situation where you're on the roof of

1677
01:28:27,640 --> 01:28:29,679
Speaker 2: your house and your roof is not going to hold

1678
01:28:29,680 --> 01:28:32,880
Speaker 2: out much longer in the floodwaters, colms suddenly become the

1679
01:28:32,960 --> 01:28:35,840
Speaker 2: number one problem that you have, right your inability to

1680
01:28:35,880 --> 01:28:37,880
Speaker 2: reach someone who might be able to get you out

1681
01:28:37,880 --> 01:28:38,200
Speaker 2: of there.

1682
01:28:38,400 --> 01:28:39,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you need to get help, then you need

1683
01:28:39,760 --> 01:28:41,400
Speaker 3: to be able to ask for help. Yeah.

1684
01:28:41,600 --> 01:28:43,040
Speaker 8: I guess the other thing I would say is if

1685
01:28:43,040 --> 01:28:45,599
Speaker 8: you rely on any medicine, think about how and where

1686
01:28:45,640 --> 01:28:46,360
Speaker 8: you store them.

1687
01:28:46,560 --> 01:28:46,880
Speaker 3: God.

1688
01:28:47,600 --> 01:28:50,360
Speaker 2: Yes, a lot of people have been having to figure out,

1689
01:28:50,400 --> 01:28:53,280
Speaker 2: Like I've been reading stories about people needing to set

1690
01:28:53,360 --> 01:28:56,320
Speaker 2: up like battery and solar or generator situation, like their

1691
01:28:56,320 --> 01:28:59,360
Speaker 2: fucking seapap machines, and they're like, you have people who

1692
01:28:59,400 --> 01:29:01,960
Speaker 2: are on diet, We're going to need to get evacked

1693
01:29:02,040 --> 01:29:04,320
Speaker 2: because there's not going to be reliable dialysis you know,

1694
01:29:04,400 --> 01:29:06,040
Speaker 2: in town in a while, right, Like.

1695
01:29:06,040 --> 01:29:08,200
Speaker 8: That kind of stuff, Like some of that, you know,

1696
01:29:08,280 --> 01:29:10,639
Speaker 8: like I have a big cooler and I can chuck

1697
01:29:10,680 --> 01:29:12,280
Speaker 8: ice in there, and I can have enough insulin in

1698
01:29:12,320 --> 01:29:14,840
Speaker 8: that bad boy for a year, you know. Yeah, and

1699
01:29:14,920 --> 01:29:16,879
Speaker 8: other medicines. You know, he's putting them in a waterproof

1700
01:29:16,920 --> 01:29:19,840
Speaker 8: bottle and having that in your well. I live in California.

1701
01:29:19,840 --> 01:29:22,160
Speaker 8: We have a bag for fives and earthquakes, right, everyone

1702
01:29:22,160 --> 01:29:24,840
Speaker 8: here does. And just having a few days of your

1703
01:29:24,880 --> 01:29:26,800
Speaker 8: medicine so you can grab and go. You don't have

1704
01:29:26,840 --> 01:29:29,040
Speaker 8: to think about it. You don't forget something that you

1705
01:29:29,120 --> 01:29:29,720
Speaker 8: rely on.

1706
01:29:30,360 --> 01:29:32,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's that's also what you should be thinking,

1707
01:29:32,640 --> 01:29:35,160
Speaker 2: is like, if it takes me two or three days

1708
01:29:35,600 --> 01:29:38,160
Speaker 2: to get evact and out to an area where I

1709
01:29:38,160 --> 01:29:40,680
Speaker 2: can like spend money again to get access to the

1710
01:29:40,720 --> 01:29:43,800
Speaker 2: things that I have on a daily basis, what shit

1711
01:29:43,960 --> 01:29:47,160
Speaker 2: can't I survive without until I get to a part

1712
01:29:47,160 --> 01:29:49,800
Speaker 2: of the world where I can get access to things again,

1713
01:29:49,880 --> 01:29:52,679
Speaker 2: right right, Which is again why we're kind of focusing

1714
01:29:52,720 --> 01:29:55,400
Speaker 2: on comms so that you know what's happening, so that

1715
01:29:55,479 --> 01:29:59,200
Speaker 2: you can maybe reach people water and then underwater like

1716
01:29:59,320 --> 01:30:03,120
Speaker 2: food and obviously things like thank god we are not

1717
01:30:03,200 --> 01:30:05,280
Speaker 2: in a time of the year when this happened where

1718
01:30:05,560 --> 01:30:08,160
Speaker 2: people are going to like freeze to death immediately right

1719
01:30:08,280 --> 01:30:11,400
Speaker 2: in the middle of something like this. But that would

1720
01:30:11,439 --> 01:30:14,679
Speaker 2: I would say, like access to warm and dry clothing

1721
01:30:15,120 --> 01:30:18,360
Speaker 2: could be up there, equal with you know, water and cobs.

1722
01:30:18,400 --> 01:30:21,200
Speaker 2: If you're talking about a kind of disaster that might

1723
01:30:21,240 --> 01:30:23,799
Speaker 2: put people out of their homes in an area where

1724
01:30:23,960 --> 01:30:26,080
Speaker 2: you can die in minutes in the front, like if

1725
01:30:26,080 --> 01:30:28,479
Speaker 2: you live out in the fucking Great Lakes region, depending

1726
01:30:28,479 --> 01:30:30,439
Speaker 2: on the time of year, we're talking about a disaster

1727
01:30:30,560 --> 01:30:32,600
Speaker 2: that could be right up there. You know, you know

1728
01:30:32,680 --> 01:30:34,800
Speaker 2: what you need based on where you live, but be

1729
01:30:34,880 --> 01:30:38,400
Speaker 2: thinking about what keeps you alive. That's really a lot

1730
01:30:38,400 --> 01:30:41,960
Speaker 2: of disaster preparedness is actually trying to understand what is

1731
01:30:42,040 --> 01:30:45,120
Speaker 2: it that keeps me alive. A lot of our economy

1732
01:30:45,280 --> 01:30:47,400
Speaker 2: exists in having that not be obvious to you.

1733
01:30:48,280 --> 01:30:52,639
Speaker 8: Yes, yeah, yeah, in putting your priority selfwhere But yeah,

1734
01:30:52,720 --> 01:30:54,439
Speaker 8: think about what stuff's you dying.

1735
01:30:54,760 --> 01:30:57,080
Speaker 3: Maybe have a couple of spats and have it in

1736
01:30:57,120 --> 01:30:57,559
Speaker 3: a place.

1737
01:30:58,160 --> 01:30:59,920
Speaker 8: Having all this stuff is great, if it's in seven

1738
01:31:00,240 --> 01:31:03,519
Speaker 8: different tote bags in your attic, that's not much use

1739
01:31:03,640 --> 01:31:05,200
Speaker 8: to you when you don't have very long to get

1740
01:31:05,200 --> 01:31:07,680
Speaker 8: out your house. So having stuff like Robert said by

1741
01:31:07,720 --> 01:31:11,559
Speaker 8: the door in your car, in a backpack whatever, like, yeah,

1742
01:31:12,000 --> 01:31:14,800
Speaker 8: that you can easily access and be okay. Then you

1743
01:31:14,840 --> 01:31:16,880
Speaker 8: have it and then you when you need it, it's

1744
01:31:16,920 --> 01:31:17,880
Speaker 8: there and you know where it is.

1745
01:31:18,720 --> 01:31:18,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1746
01:31:19,360 --> 01:31:24,120
Speaker 8: Yeah, well James, how we do it. It's happened here, buddy,

1747
01:31:24,320 --> 01:31:27,280
Speaker 8: It's happened here. Yeah, like we said it would. Yeah

1748
01:31:27,280 --> 01:31:29,200
Speaker 8: it could like could, like we keep saying.

1749
01:31:29,479 --> 01:31:32,880
Speaker 2: This was like the messages I was sharing with people

1750
01:31:32,880 --> 01:31:36,040
Speaker 2: immediately after this was like, oh, this is the one.

1751
01:31:37,000 --> 01:31:39,280
Speaker 2: This is the one we were worried about. This is

1752
01:31:39,320 --> 01:31:42,160
Speaker 2: the hand of God sweeping into a community and just

1753
01:31:42,600 --> 01:31:44,280
Speaker 2: knocking it off the edge of the earth.

1754
01:31:44,600 --> 01:31:44,840
Speaker 10: Yeah.

1755
01:31:45,200 --> 01:31:47,679
Speaker 2: You know, not that this kind of thing doesn't happen,

1756
01:31:47,760 --> 01:31:50,679
Speaker 2: but this is the first one, at least since I've

1757
01:31:50,720 --> 01:31:52,960
Speaker 2: been really focusing on this stuff in the US, where

1758
01:31:52,960 --> 01:31:55,920
Speaker 2: it hits somewhere that just was not on my radar

1759
01:31:56,080 --> 01:31:57,920
Speaker 2: as a super vulnerable place.

1760
01:31:58,000 --> 01:32:01,000
Speaker 3: Definitely. Yeah, and it'll happen again, thanks Jaron. This week.

1761
01:32:01,040 --> 01:32:04,000
Speaker 2: It'll happen again. Yeah, and it'll surprise you. It'll surprise

1762
01:32:04,040 --> 01:32:05,080
Speaker 2: you again where it hits.

1763
01:32:05,160 --> 01:32:05,360
Speaker 3: You know.

1764
01:32:05,560 --> 01:32:09,439
Speaker 2: That's the thing. There's no climate haven. Yeah, it doesn't exist.

1765
01:32:09,680 --> 01:32:11,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, not on this planet.

1766
01:32:11,800 --> 01:32:13,720
Speaker 8: I would say, like, if you have money and you

1767
01:32:13,720 --> 01:32:16,000
Speaker 8: want to help, you too, late disaster relief a great.

1768
01:32:16,240 --> 01:32:19,439
Speaker 2: Yes, let's talk about that. Let's go to ADS one

1769
01:32:19,479 --> 01:32:21,000
Speaker 2: last time, and then when we come back we will

1770
01:32:21,040 --> 01:32:23,240
Speaker 2: tell you who you can send some money to to

1771
01:32:23,360 --> 01:32:25,600
Speaker 2: help people who are actively suffering.

1772
01:32:35,200 --> 01:32:38,440
Speaker 3: And we're back. Before we bounce, we wanted.

1773
01:32:38,120 --> 01:32:41,360
Speaker 2: To suggest some places where you could donate if you

1774
01:32:41,479 --> 01:32:44,320
Speaker 2: are looking to help people who are in Ashville other

1775
01:32:44,360 --> 01:32:47,440
Speaker 2: parts of North Carolina. One of the first places recommended

1776
01:32:47,479 --> 01:32:54,080
Speaker 2: to me is Appellation Medical Solidarity. They are providing I mean,

1777
01:32:54,120 --> 01:32:56,360
Speaker 2: it's obvious what they're providing a lot of like medical

1778
01:32:56,840 --> 01:32:59,360
Speaker 2: care and support, a lot of equipment and stuff that

1779
01:32:59,360 --> 01:33:03,720
Speaker 2: people need. Their venmo is at app med solid Their

1780
01:33:03,760 --> 01:33:09,040
Speaker 2: cash app is dollar sign Streets one de put flood

1781
01:33:09,040 --> 01:33:11,880
Speaker 2: support in the description if you send them money through that.

1782
01:33:12,720 --> 01:33:17,280
Speaker 2: The other place is mutual Aid Disaster Relief. Their PayPal

1783
01:33:17,479 --> 01:33:20,840
Speaker 2: is mutual Aid Disaster Relief at gmail dot com. Their

1784
01:33:20,920 --> 01:33:24,920
Speaker 2: venmo is at mutual Aid Disaster Relief. Yeah, just google

1785
01:33:24,960 --> 01:33:26,439
Speaker 2: them if you want to find out more about what

1786
01:33:26,479 --> 01:33:28,720
Speaker 2: they're doing. James, did you have anyone else that you

1787
01:33:29,400 --> 01:33:30,439
Speaker 2: wanted to throw out there?

1788
01:33:30,840 --> 01:33:32,800
Speaker 8: Those are the two we did an episode I didn't

1789
01:33:32,840 --> 01:33:34,559
Speaker 8: Upsot a couple of years ago with mutul a disafter

1790
01:33:34,600 --> 01:33:37,160
Speaker 8: relief that you can now find in your podcasting app.

1791
01:33:37,640 --> 01:33:39,439
Speaker 8: Those are the two big ones I think, you know,

1792
01:33:39,640 --> 01:33:41,479
Speaker 8: if you're on the ground, help each other.

1793
01:33:41,600 --> 01:33:42,599
Speaker 3: I'm sure you already are.

1794
01:33:42,800 --> 01:33:45,639
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, those would be the two that I would suggest,

1795
01:33:46,080 --> 01:33:48,360
Speaker 8: you know, if you buy yourself your water filter and

1796
01:33:48,439 --> 01:33:49,519
Speaker 8: you have ten bucks to help out.

1797
01:33:49,680 --> 01:33:53,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, how we make the world better? Yep. So until

1798
01:33:53,920 --> 01:33:54,400
Speaker 3: next week.

1799
01:33:54,640 --> 01:33:58,559
Speaker 2: Solidarity to the people who are in the Atlanta area

1800
01:33:58,640 --> 01:34:02,800
Speaker 2: right now where chemical fire, very similar chemical fire to

1801
01:34:02,840 --> 01:34:04,240
Speaker 2: the one that happened in a place I used to

1802
01:34:04,280 --> 01:34:07,040
Speaker 2: live West Texas, has just blanketed the air in Chlory.

1803
01:34:07,600 --> 01:34:10,760
Speaker 2: So remember, folks, weird disasters could hit too.

1804
01:34:11,520 --> 01:34:12,400
Speaker 3: We're living the dream.

1805
01:34:12,439 --> 01:34:16,599
Speaker 2: We're not just talking about hurricanes and fires here.

1806
01:34:18,120 --> 01:34:20,320
Speaker 3: Anyway. That's that's it for now.

1807
01:34:20,360 --> 01:34:24,840
Speaker 2: Everybody, good luck, stay safe, make sure you drink plenty

1808
01:34:24,880 --> 01:34:25,240
Speaker 2: of water.

1809
01:34:46,320 --> 01:34:48,519
Speaker 11: I just want to start off by saying I love you.

1810
01:34:48,880 --> 01:34:51,519
Speaker 3: Oh God, yeah, I love you.

1811
01:34:52,800 --> 01:34:53,040
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1812
01:34:53,200 --> 01:34:55,400
Speaker 2: I don't think jd Vance should be saying the word

1813
01:34:55,439 --> 01:34:57,840
Speaker 2: love because it it just makes it clear every time

1814
01:34:57,880 --> 01:34:59,599
Speaker 2: he does that he's never felt that emotion.

1815
01:35:00,000 --> 01:35:04,280
Speaker 1: Oh No, there was something particularly unsettling about him saying that.

1816
01:35:04,240 --> 01:35:06,639
Speaker 2: It's like when I try to order food in French

1817
01:35:06,760 --> 01:35:09,280
Speaker 2: and it's like, Robert, you're not fooling anyone if you

1818
01:35:09,320 --> 01:35:12,200
Speaker 2: look this up on Google right before getting to the restaurant, Like,

1819
01:35:12,240 --> 01:35:15,120
Speaker 2: you're not going to impress anyone. No, I guess let's

1820
01:35:15,120 --> 01:35:18,040
Speaker 2: start with fuck Mary kill for the guys that know

1821
01:35:18,240 --> 01:35:20,280
Speaker 2: the Secret Service will get pissed at us if we

1822
01:35:20,320 --> 01:35:20,920
Speaker 2: do that one.

1823
01:35:21,080 --> 01:35:24,000
Speaker 11: No, it could happen here.

1824
01:35:24,040 --> 01:35:27,920
Speaker 1: And this is the who gives a shit VP Debate episode. Yeah,

1825
01:35:27,960 --> 01:35:31,040
Speaker 1: I'm Sophielix Triven. I'm here with Kirsten Davis and Robert Evans.

1826
01:35:31,400 --> 01:35:34,360
Speaker 3: Yeah. Wow, what a great use of two hours that was?

1827
01:35:35,400 --> 01:35:36,160
Speaker 3: That really was?

1828
01:35:36,840 --> 01:35:39,840
Speaker 2: I am behind this week horribly, still haven't picked the

1829
01:35:39,880 --> 01:35:44,000
Speaker 2: subject for this week, desperately desperately behind. And I sure

1830
01:35:44,040 --> 01:35:46,559
Speaker 2: did love that. This was a complete waste of all

1831
01:35:46,600 --> 01:35:49,439
Speaker 2: of our fucking time. Not a complete waste because we

1832
01:35:49,520 --> 01:35:52,880
Speaker 2: learned something important, which is that the Democrat who seemed

1833
01:35:52,920 --> 01:35:55,480
Speaker 2: to have the best understanding of how to fight Republicans

1834
01:35:55,800 --> 01:35:59,280
Speaker 2: maybe just got lucky or or got coached into some

1835
01:35:59,439 --> 01:36:02,639
Speaker 2: very bad vice by a Democratic should have known better.

1836
01:36:02,720 --> 01:36:04,439
Speaker 1: Hey, Robert, I just want to say thank you for

1837
01:36:04,479 --> 01:36:06,120
Speaker 1: saying that, Like I agree with you, I just want

1838
01:36:06,160 --> 01:36:07,800
Speaker 1: to say thank you for saying, Zoby.

1839
01:36:07,600 --> 01:36:10,120
Speaker 2: You and I are great friends. Everything you say is

1840
01:36:10,240 --> 01:36:13,000
Speaker 2: terrible and wrong, but I agree with you on most of.

1841
01:36:12,960 --> 01:36:15,320
Speaker 11: It, and thank you, thank you, and thank you for

1842
01:36:15,400 --> 01:36:17,200
Speaker 11: saying that. I just really appreciate that.

1843
01:36:17,360 --> 01:36:21,000
Speaker 2: You know, whoever told him that Americans wanted to see

1844
01:36:21,120 --> 01:36:24,559
Speaker 2: him be friendly with jd Vance was not a friend

1845
01:36:24,560 --> 01:36:26,040
Speaker 2: of the Republic or of him.

1846
01:36:26,200 --> 01:36:27,360
Speaker 3: I think I.

1847
01:36:27,240 --> 01:36:31,280
Speaker 2: Don't think it'll work. I've been wrong before. It definitely

1848
01:36:31,320 --> 01:36:34,439
Speaker 2: seems to have worked. If your recollection of like what

1849
01:36:34,720 --> 01:36:37,800
Speaker 2: Fox and the other anchors were saying, they seem to

1850
01:36:37,800 --> 01:36:40,439
Speaker 2: be pretty positive on Walls's performance, So it may be

1851
01:36:40,479 --> 01:36:42,839
Speaker 2: working on like media ghoules.

1852
01:36:43,200 --> 01:36:46,120
Speaker 11: But that's who watched the VP debate.

1853
01:36:46,320 --> 01:36:47,599
Speaker 9: That is who watches the debate?

1854
01:36:48,200 --> 01:36:50,760
Speaker 3: Yeah right, I mean that is that is the audience.

1855
01:36:50,920 --> 01:36:54,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, only the fucking sickos who are keating on politics

1856
01:36:54,760 --> 01:36:56,120
Speaker 1: watch the VP debate.

1857
01:36:56,360 --> 01:36:59,240
Speaker 2: I guess I don't really believe this, but I'm going

1858
01:36:59,280 --> 01:37:02,759
Speaker 2: to like my devil's advocate would be maybe it's smart

1859
01:37:02,800 --> 01:37:05,800
Speaker 2: strategy to accept that only media gorules listen to this.

1860
01:37:05,920 --> 01:37:08,320
Speaker 2: The only real way for the debate to matter is

1861
01:37:08,360 --> 01:37:10,599
Speaker 2: if you like fuck up, sure, and there was more

1862
01:37:10,680 --> 01:37:13,160
Speaker 2: risk of seeming like a lunatic if he went in

1863
01:37:13,200 --> 01:37:16,479
Speaker 2: there attacking JD as hard as he could and getting

1864
01:37:16,479 --> 01:37:19,320
Speaker 2: negative press, as opposed to this, which probably is not

1865
01:37:19,400 --> 01:37:20,679
Speaker 2: going to get him negative press.

1866
01:37:20,960 --> 01:37:24,439
Speaker 1: I think he probably had multiple strategies, And like if JD.

1867
01:37:24,520 --> 01:37:26,200
Speaker 1: Vance had come in there and started saying some of

1868
01:37:26,200 --> 01:37:28,280
Speaker 1: the things that he normally says, which are fucking weird

1869
01:37:28,320 --> 01:37:31,720
Speaker 1: and creepy, but he didn't and unhinged and fascist and misogynistic,

1870
01:37:31,760 --> 01:37:35,320
Speaker 1: and I could continue, But then we might have seen

1871
01:37:35,360 --> 01:37:36,679
Speaker 1: it different Tim Walls.

1872
01:37:36,720 --> 01:37:37,559
Speaker 11: But because JD.

1873
01:37:37,680 --> 01:37:41,639
Speaker 1: Vance's entire strategy was like, hey, I can appear normal

1874
01:37:41,720 --> 01:37:42,559
Speaker 1: even though I'm not.

1875
01:37:43,200 --> 01:37:47,000
Speaker 9: Well, I don't quite understand the hesitancy to then actually

1876
01:37:47,040 --> 01:37:50,320
Speaker 9: bring those things forefront. They were there, and why not

1877
01:37:50,360 --> 01:37:52,880
Speaker 9: talk about it, because like my initial takeaway here is

1878
01:37:53,479 --> 01:37:56,040
Speaker 9: I don't think anyone necessarily clearly one. I think both

1879
01:37:56,040 --> 01:37:59,559
Speaker 9: of them did just fine. But if anyone comes out

1880
01:37:59,600 --> 01:38:03,599
Speaker 9: slightly better than what they were going in, I would say.

1881
01:38:03,439 --> 01:38:04,960
Speaker 3: It is Vance. It's Vance.

1882
01:38:05,080 --> 01:38:10,479
Speaker 9: I would agree, because somehow Walls was able to humanize Vance.

1883
01:38:10,600 --> 01:38:12,600
Speaker 9: Over the course of the debate, they were. It was

1884
01:38:12,640 --> 01:38:16,360
Speaker 9: a very very friendly exchange, and that just serves to

1885
01:38:16,439 --> 01:38:20,160
Speaker 9: undercut the months of work that Walls has done to

1886
01:38:20,520 --> 01:38:24,439
Speaker 9: paint Vance as a weird, unhinged extremist, which he is,

1887
01:38:25,000 --> 01:38:27,800
Speaker 9: and instead making him seem like just a reasonable politician

1888
01:38:27,840 --> 01:38:30,000
Speaker 9: that although we may disagree on a few things, we

1889
01:38:30,040 --> 01:38:31,600
Speaker 9: actually agree on a lot of a lot of the

1890
01:38:31,640 --> 01:38:32,680
Speaker 9: problems and solutions.

1891
01:38:32,880 --> 01:38:36,360
Speaker 2: We both care about this country. We're trying to help people,

1892
01:38:36,640 --> 01:38:38,640
Speaker 2: and like, no Jade Vance. Like there was that bit

1893
01:38:38,680 --> 01:38:40,600
Speaker 2: where they were talking about mass shootings and he was like,

1894
01:38:40,640 --> 01:38:43,800
Speaker 2: I truly believe that Vance cares about these kids. That

1895
01:38:43,880 --> 01:38:46,599
Speaker 2: Jade Vance didn't give a shit about dead kids, never has,

1896
01:38:46,640 --> 01:38:49,599
Speaker 2: never will. He's not capable of it. And it undercut

1897
01:38:49,720 --> 01:38:52,679
Speaker 2: one of the more powerful moments that Walls had where

1898
01:38:52,720 --> 01:38:55,120
Speaker 2: he was like, my son was at a mass shooting.

1899
01:38:55,360 --> 01:38:56,559
Speaker 11: Christ have mercy.

1900
01:38:57,840 --> 01:39:01,360
Speaker 2: It was so interesting too, because Walls is and I

1901
01:39:01,400 --> 01:39:03,000
Speaker 2: know that I'm coming into this as the guy who's

1902
01:39:03,000 --> 01:39:05,720
Speaker 2: generally pretty anti gun control, but I'm just from perspective

1903
01:39:05,720 --> 01:39:10,400
Speaker 2: of Democratic Party strategy. Number one, this is something they

1904
01:39:10,439 --> 01:39:13,960
Speaker 2: go after hard, so you can't half asset right. This

1905
01:39:14,080 --> 01:39:16,639
Speaker 2: is not like the border where they really do feel

1906
01:39:16,640 --> 01:39:19,439
Speaker 2: the need to lean into the right wing argument. The

1907
01:39:19,479 --> 01:39:22,519
Speaker 2: dims are very unequivocal about what they about, like the

1908
01:39:22,560 --> 01:39:26,200
Speaker 2: fact that they want to ban Ir fifteen's. Walls didn't

1909
01:39:26,240 --> 01:39:28,640
Speaker 2: really commit to that until a little bit when he

1910
01:39:28,760 --> 01:39:31,040
Speaker 2: was specifically pushed on whether or not he agreed with

1911
01:39:31,040 --> 01:39:35,040
Speaker 2: an assault weapons ban, and instead his language up until

1912
01:39:35,040 --> 01:39:38,840
Speaker 2: that point was not very different from Vance's aside from

1913
01:39:38,880 --> 01:39:41,880
Speaker 2: their disagreement over fortifying schools. But it was all stuff

1914
01:39:41,960 --> 01:39:45,640
Speaker 2: around the guns, whereas the Democratic parties line and the

1915
01:39:45,640 --> 01:39:48,759
Speaker 2: line of most Democratic politicians has been it's about the guns.

1916
01:39:49,120 --> 01:39:52,160
Speaker 2: And I did find it interesting that Walls he had

1917
01:39:52,200 --> 01:39:55,920
Speaker 2: to kind of be goaded into really embracing that by

1918
01:39:55,960 --> 01:39:56,680
Speaker 2: the moderator.

1919
01:39:56,760 --> 01:39:58,519
Speaker 9: Now, one of the first things I noticed from watching

1920
01:39:58,520 --> 01:40:01,320
Speaker 9: the debate, which just happened like once or twice. Then

1921
01:40:01,320 --> 01:40:03,280
Speaker 9: I realized this was just like a reoccurring trend across

1922
01:40:03,320 --> 01:40:06,519
Speaker 9: the whole night, is that each candidate would try to

1923
01:40:06,600 --> 01:40:09,880
Speaker 9: separate the other yeah from their running mate, to be like,

1924
01:40:10,240 --> 01:40:12,920
Speaker 9: I'm sure Walls or I'm sure Vans agrees with me

1925
01:40:13,000 --> 01:40:15,840
Speaker 9: on this, but their running mate doesn't, and that's the

1926
01:40:15,840 --> 01:40:19,160
Speaker 9: real problem. And this just kept happening. They kept trying

1927
01:40:19,200 --> 01:40:22,160
Speaker 9: to like be nice to the actual opponent in the

1928
01:40:22,200 --> 01:40:25,599
Speaker 9: debate by separating them out from their running mate, who's

1929
01:40:25,640 --> 01:40:27,360
Speaker 9: the real source of the problem. And that's just like

1930
01:40:27,400 --> 01:40:29,439
Speaker 9: it just just kept happening, Like what are you doing,

1931
01:40:29,600 --> 01:40:31,840
Speaker 9: Like you're running out a joint ticket. There's no reason

1932
01:40:31,880 --> 01:40:34,240
Speaker 9: to do this. And I think kind of part of

1933
01:40:34,280 --> 01:40:37,880
Speaker 9: what their strategy may have been. Yes, these debates are

1934
01:40:37,920 --> 01:40:40,439
Speaker 9: probably only watched by freaks, but I think there are

1935
01:40:40,439 --> 01:40:45,160
Speaker 9: also certain freaks who are like weird, like independent centristy freaks,

1936
01:40:45,680 --> 01:40:46,920
Speaker 9: and I think this.

1937
01:40:46,840 --> 01:40:47,800
Speaker 3: Is who they were going after.

1938
01:40:48,000 --> 01:40:50,920
Speaker 9: Yep, this this entire debate was focused on appealing to

1939
01:40:50,960 --> 01:40:54,479
Speaker 9: the center. It wasn't really based on like going heavy

1940
01:40:54,560 --> 01:40:57,240
Speaker 9: into like each side's own base because people they've already

1941
01:40:57,280 --> 01:41:00,639
Speaker 9: made up their minds. And I think the the issue

1942
01:41:01,040 --> 01:41:03,000
Speaker 9: for me at the end of this debate is because

1943
01:41:03,040 --> 01:41:05,599
Speaker 9: both of them were we're trying to court the center vote.

1944
01:41:06,200 --> 01:41:10,719
Speaker 9: I think Vance did about just as good as Walls

1945
01:41:10,760 --> 01:41:13,439
Speaker 9: did going after the center by and and Walls kind

1946
01:41:13,439 --> 01:41:17,320
Speaker 9: of even even helped him. And in effect, if Vance

1947
01:41:17,360 --> 01:41:19,519
Speaker 9: comes off as just a slightly better debater when they're

1948
01:41:19,520 --> 01:41:22,240
Speaker 9: going after the same base, that just leaves Walls with

1949
01:41:22,320 --> 01:41:24,880
Speaker 9: like not really making any ground where he could have

1950
01:41:24,960 --> 01:41:28,200
Speaker 9: actually just hit hit Vance quite hard and actually gone

1951
01:41:28,400 --> 01:41:31,439
Speaker 9: more on like a party line, or actually just like

1952
01:41:31,600 --> 01:41:34,040
Speaker 9: gone more towards like all the reasons that Advance is

1953
01:41:34,080 --> 01:41:36,040
Speaker 9: fucked up, which he just would, she would, she just

1954
01:41:36,040 --> 01:41:40,200
Speaker 9: avoided to do. Yeah, So my main takeaway was, like,

1955
01:41:40,640 --> 01:41:43,080
Speaker 9: if they're both courting the center and Vance kind of

1956
01:41:43,120 --> 01:41:46,519
Speaker 9: barely edged him out in some in some regards, maybe

1957
01:41:46,640 --> 01:41:49,000
Speaker 9: Walls should have just actually been way more aggressive, and

1958
01:41:49,120 --> 01:41:51,760
Speaker 9: the kind of lack of aggression really only hurt the

1959
01:41:51,800 --> 01:41:55,280
Speaker 9: Democrats because in the end it kind of benefits Vance.

1960
01:41:55,320 --> 01:41:58,200
Speaker 9: If you give this like half assed mediocre performance.

1961
01:41:58,080 --> 01:42:00,760
Speaker 2: We'll see where it Because again, this is not being

1962
01:42:00,840 --> 01:42:03,240
Speaker 2: listened to by average people in the same way that

1963
01:42:03,400 --> 01:42:06,160
Speaker 2: like the last presidential debate was. This is not I

1964
01:42:06,200 --> 01:42:08,120
Speaker 2: don't think moves the needle one way or the other.

1965
01:42:08,560 --> 01:42:11,080
Speaker 2: Because it was so close, I would be inclined to

1966
01:42:11,120 --> 01:42:13,160
Speaker 2: agree with you that I think Vance did more of

1967
01:42:13,200 --> 01:42:15,160
Speaker 2: the things he needed to do for this to be

1968
01:42:15,240 --> 01:42:17,599
Speaker 2: a benefit to him. I'm not sure in a way

1969
01:42:17,640 --> 01:42:20,320
Speaker 2: that helps the campaign, because most of what Vance did

1970
01:42:20,320 --> 01:42:23,080
Speaker 2: that probably helps him was stuff that I think would

1971
01:42:23,120 --> 01:42:25,240
Speaker 2: set him up better in a world where Trump doesn't

1972
01:42:25,280 --> 01:42:28,400
Speaker 2: win reelection. Sure that would set him up to continue

1973
01:42:28,439 --> 01:42:31,320
Speaker 2: to have a career and to be re embraced by

1974
01:42:31,400 --> 01:42:36,120
Speaker 2: respectable kind of politics. The thing that makes me kind

1975
01:42:36,120 --> 01:42:39,880
Speaker 2: of doubt myself because I think there's a possibility this

1976
01:42:39,960 --> 01:42:42,519
Speaker 2: comes out as a Walls win, and if that is

1977
01:42:42,560 --> 01:42:44,639
Speaker 2: the case, it will be entirely because of the last

1978
01:42:44,720 --> 01:42:48,880
Speaker 2: question on January sixth, Because the way these things tend

1979
01:42:48,880 --> 01:42:51,439
Speaker 2: to work in popular memory, not again people like us

1980
01:42:51,479 --> 01:42:53,519
Speaker 2: who sit through the whole thing, all of nearly all

1981
01:42:53,560 --> 01:42:57,680
Speaker 2: of whom are journalists or unusually engaged voters. But the

1982
01:42:57,680 --> 01:43:00,360
Speaker 2: thing that there's two moments that are most like one

1983
01:43:00,400 --> 01:43:02,840
Speaker 2: from each of them, in my opinion, to get clipped

1984
01:43:02,840 --> 01:43:05,360
Speaker 2: out and go viral. And for Vance it was the

1985
01:43:05,439 --> 01:43:09,200
Speaker 2: January sixth thing where Walls drilled him, and I think

1986
01:43:09,240 --> 01:43:12,240
Speaker 2: this was actually one of his few fairly effective aggressive

1987
01:43:12,240 --> 01:43:15,120
Speaker 2: moments where he was like yeah, forced him to answer,

1988
01:43:15,560 --> 01:43:18,080
Speaker 2: and Vance refused to answer as to whether or not

1989
01:43:18,120 --> 01:43:20,280
Speaker 2: he thought Trump had lost in twenty twenty in a

1990
01:43:20,320 --> 01:43:23,120
Speaker 2: way that was I think kind of embarrassing for him

1991
01:43:23,120 --> 01:43:25,479
Speaker 2: and is easy, probably pretty easy to clip out. That

1992
01:43:25,560 --> 01:43:28,759
Speaker 2: might wind up being the big kind of viral moment

1993
01:43:28,760 --> 01:43:31,160
Speaker 2: of the night if it's not that it'll be Walls flubbing.

1994
01:43:31,600 --> 01:43:33,560
Speaker 2: We should talk about the China question now. Yeah, but

1995
01:43:33,600 --> 01:43:36,200
Speaker 2: I don't think the China question that Walls flubbed is

1996
01:43:36,240 --> 01:43:39,760
Speaker 2: on an issue that like Americans overall care about, which

1997
01:43:39,800 --> 01:43:43,080
Speaker 2: is Tim Walls now maybe exaggerating when he talked about

1998
01:43:43,120 --> 01:43:45,479
Speaker 2: his vacation in China one time in the eighties.

1999
01:43:46,640 --> 01:43:49,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's take a quick break and then let's dive

2000
01:43:49,760 --> 01:43:50,680
Speaker 1: in a little bit on that.

2001
01:43:51,320 --> 01:44:02,200
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2002
01:44:02,920 --> 01:44:06,679
Speaker 2: So, first off, everyone in this debate pronounced China correctly,

2003
01:44:07,040 --> 01:44:09,400
Speaker 2: which is a step forward from the ones that have

2004
01:44:09,439 --> 01:44:12,360
Speaker 2: involved Trump the last couple of cycles. The downside is

2005
01:44:12,520 --> 01:44:14,479
Speaker 2: no one knows how to say it on not a

2006
01:44:14,520 --> 01:44:15,600
Speaker 2: single person.

2007
01:44:15,439 --> 01:44:17,920
Speaker 11: And not a single mention of Ukraine.

2008
01:44:18,240 --> 01:44:20,920
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, well that was interesting to me.

2009
01:44:21,080 --> 01:44:21,799
Speaker 9: That is interesting.

2010
01:44:21,960 --> 01:44:25,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, not one moment where we talked about Ukraine, which.

2011
01:44:25,040 --> 01:44:29,360
Speaker 9: They kind of blazed past foreign policy really quickly, which

2012
01:44:29,400 --> 01:44:32,920
Speaker 9: is a little surprising considering the events of this morning.

2013
01:44:33,320 --> 01:44:36,599
Speaker 2: There are literally missiles landing in Tel Aviv right now,

2014
01:44:36,800 --> 01:44:39,559
Speaker 2: like people are talking with I think some reason as

2015
01:44:39,600 --> 01:44:42,200
Speaker 2: to whether or not Israel might consider a nuclear response,

2016
01:44:42,320 --> 01:44:44,800
Speaker 2: like shit is legitimately a problem.

2017
01:44:44,560 --> 01:44:47,080
Speaker 9: I mean, And this is how they started the debate.

2018
01:44:47,120 --> 01:44:49,400
Speaker 9: They started by talking about how this was going to

2019
01:44:49,400 --> 01:44:53,280
Speaker 9: be like a debate focused on how presidents or these

2020
01:44:53,360 --> 01:44:56,320
Speaker 9: vice presidents will handle like America in a sudden crisis

2021
01:44:57,080 --> 01:45:00,760
Speaker 9: as you've seen with the hurricane this weekend. Yeah, and

2022
01:45:00,800 --> 01:45:04,200
Speaker 9: now escalating war in the in the Middle East. And

2023
01:45:04,240 --> 01:45:06,920
Speaker 9: although that was their kind of opening framing, they really

2024
01:45:06,960 --> 01:45:09,400
Speaker 9: got over those hurdles quite quick and then started talking

2025
01:45:09,400 --> 01:45:11,800
Speaker 9: about me extremely boring shit for the rest of the

2026
01:45:12,160 --> 01:45:12,880
Speaker 9: hour and a half.

2027
01:45:13,080 --> 01:45:17,200
Speaker 2: The very first question was basically, you know, Iran's bombing Israel, which, like,

2028
01:45:17,280 --> 01:45:19,280
Speaker 2: I don't know, did Israel do anything to fucking Lebanon

2029
01:45:19,400 --> 01:45:23,679
Speaker 2: right before that? Like interesting context from the journalist there,

2030
01:45:23,720 --> 01:45:27,880
Speaker 2: But Iran's bombing Israel. If you're in the situation room,

2031
01:45:27,920 --> 01:45:30,400
Speaker 2: Tim Walls, what do you tell the president if you're

2032
01:45:30,439 --> 01:45:33,160
Speaker 2: the last voice, should he let Israel carry out a

2033
01:45:33,200 --> 01:45:36,759
Speaker 2: strike on Iran? And his response was a carbon copy

2034
01:45:36,800 --> 01:45:39,360
Speaker 2: of what Kamala has said every time she's been asked

2035
01:45:39,360 --> 01:45:41,960
Speaker 2: on it. Israel has a right to defend itself. October

2036
01:45:42,000 --> 01:45:45,920
Speaker 2: seventh was horrible, but you know, civilian casualty is bad too,

2037
01:45:46,000 --> 01:45:47,720
Speaker 2: So it was a non answer, but it was the

2038
01:45:47,760 --> 01:45:51,479
Speaker 2: same non answer that the campaign has always given, so

2039
01:45:51,520 --> 01:45:53,800
Speaker 2: I was not surprised by it. It was exactly what

2040
01:45:53,840 --> 01:45:54,840
Speaker 2: I expected from him.

2041
01:45:54,880 --> 01:45:57,280
Speaker 9: Started off a little shakey, certainly sounded nervous. I think

2042
01:45:57,320 --> 01:45:59,960
Speaker 9: this immediately kind of gave Vance a head up.

2043
01:46:00,320 --> 01:46:03,160
Speaker 3: His first like three minutes, he was clearly uncomfortable.

2044
01:46:03,240 --> 01:46:05,840
Speaker 9: He got better, especially because like Vance has like debate

2045
01:46:05,920 --> 01:46:09,840
Speaker 9: kid energy, right. But Walls did start getting better as

2046
01:46:09,880 --> 01:46:12,120
Speaker 9: soon as he pivoted away from this question to just

2047
01:46:12,160 --> 01:46:14,160
Speaker 9: attacking Trump, which is kind of his strong suit.

2048
01:46:14,280 --> 01:46:17,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think Vance's responsor is interesting. So Walls gave

2049
01:46:17,120 --> 01:46:19,120
Speaker 2: He was a little shaky, I think just because they

2050
01:46:19,160 --> 01:46:21,280
Speaker 2: had started because he got better on that, But he

2051
01:46:21,320 --> 01:46:24,120
Speaker 2: gave what has become the standard non answer answer for

2052
01:46:24,200 --> 01:46:24,840
Speaker 2: the campaign.

2053
01:46:25,400 --> 01:46:25,679
Speaker 1: JD.

2054
01:46:25,880 --> 01:46:29,400
Speaker 2: Vance started his answer on the question of what would

2055
01:46:29,400 --> 01:46:31,360
Speaker 2: you tell the president if he was asking if he

2056
01:46:31,360 --> 01:46:36,080
Speaker 2: should allow potentially, you know, a massive escalative strike by

2057
01:46:36,120 --> 01:46:38,760
Speaker 2: Israel and Iran. What would you tell him if you're

2058
01:46:38,760 --> 01:46:40,360
Speaker 2: the last guy in the situation room?

2059
01:46:40,600 --> 01:46:41,000
Speaker 3: And JD.

2060
01:46:41,080 --> 01:46:43,800
Speaker 2: Vance started the response to that by summarizing the book

2061
01:46:43,840 --> 01:46:47,280
Speaker 2: He'll Billy ellig That was in fact, the bulk of

2062
01:46:47,320 --> 01:46:49,680
Speaker 2: his response was him talking about who he is and

2063
01:46:49,720 --> 01:46:52,040
Speaker 2: where he comes from and then being like yeah, I

2064
01:46:52,040 --> 01:46:54,799
Speaker 2: guess it's fine if Israel does whatever. It was an

2065
01:46:54,880 --> 01:46:57,640
Speaker 2: incredible response, and it struck me as the response of

2066
01:46:57,680 --> 01:46:59,720
Speaker 2: a guy who doesn't think his partner is going to

2067
01:46:59,720 --> 01:47:00,519
Speaker 2: become president.

2068
01:47:00,560 --> 01:47:02,759
Speaker 3: Again, I thought that was very odd.

2069
01:47:02,840 --> 01:47:03,120
Speaker 8: Yeah.

2070
01:47:03,200 --> 01:47:06,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was positioning himself for future jobs, correct.

2071
01:47:06,760 --> 01:47:09,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he was different kind of than the

2072
01:47:09,080 --> 01:47:11,000
Speaker 2: other answers. Maybe it was just they were both a

2073
01:47:11,040 --> 01:47:12,240
Speaker 2: little bit off their game.

2074
01:47:12,320 --> 01:47:13,040
Speaker 3: First question.

2075
01:47:13,240 --> 01:47:15,080
Speaker 2: You know that happens to everybody in a debate.

2076
01:47:15,160 --> 01:47:16,360
Speaker 11: They both were nervous.

2077
01:47:16,479 --> 01:47:19,320
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, I mean, and this is this also when

2078
01:47:19,400 --> 01:47:22,840
Speaker 9: Vance deployed his one of his reoccurring catchphrases is a

2079
01:47:22,960 --> 01:47:23,839
Speaker 9: peace through strength.

2080
01:47:24,160 --> 01:47:25,800
Speaker 3: Yeah. Oh, I hated that.

2081
01:47:26,280 --> 01:47:29,080
Speaker 2: I hated that because it's also I mean, that is

2082
01:47:29,560 --> 01:47:32,479
Speaker 2: very close to the quote from the Brotherhood of Nod

2083
01:47:32,520 --> 01:47:34,439
Speaker 2: and Command and Conquer and JD.

2084
01:47:34,560 --> 01:47:37,960
Speaker 3: Vance, you are no Kine, you know who lives in death.

2085
01:47:38,000 --> 01:47:38,519
Speaker 3: By the way.

2086
01:47:38,920 --> 01:47:40,960
Speaker 9: In general, I think Vance painted Trump is having like

2087
01:47:40,960 --> 01:47:44,920
Speaker 9: approvable track record of proving him as like like Trump

2088
01:47:45,000 --> 01:47:47,519
Speaker 9: is going to end the chaos that we faced as

2089
01:47:47,840 --> 01:47:50,560
Speaker 9: a nation the past four years, whether that be economic

2090
01:47:50,760 --> 01:47:51,719
Speaker 9: or with war.

2091
01:47:52,000 --> 01:47:54,040
Speaker 3: He was extremely consistent on that.

2092
01:47:54,320 --> 01:47:57,320
Speaker 9: And he's trying to point to like, was your life

2093
01:47:57,360 --> 01:48:01,400
Speaker 9: better under Trump? Especially economically, and like everyone's brains were

2094
01:48:01,400 --> 01:48:03,720
Speaker 9: completely fired by twenty twenty, so we actually no one

2095
01:48:03,720 --> 01:48:06,120
Speaker 9: remembers what twenty seventeen was like at all, So you

2096
01:48:06,120 --> 01:48:10,760
Speaker 9: actually can't recall that because whatsoever, let alone kind of

2097
01:48:10,960 --> 01:48:13,759
Speaker 9: Trump's mishandling of the pandemic led to like the biggest

2098
01:48:13,760 --> 01:48:17,400
Speaker 9: recession in modern history, which also for some reason Walls

2099
01:48:17,479 --> 01:48:18,240
Speaker 9: just never brought up.

2100
01:48:18,600 --> 01:48:20,400
Speaker 3: No, well, he did it. He did a little.

2101
01:48:20,400 --> 01:48:22,360
Speaker 2: He said that, Like he talked about how when they

2102
01:48:22,400 --> 01:48:24,719
Speaker 2: came in they were dealing with a massive recession.

2103
01:48:24,960 --> 01:48:25,719
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

2104
01:48:25,800 --> 01:48:29,799
Speaker 1: The second thing they talked about was climate change, which

2105
01:48:30,200 --> 01:48:33,519
Speaker 1: was Jesse Waters of Foxies was very mad that that

2106
01:48:33,640 --> 01:48:35,080
Speaker 1: was the second thing they talked about.

2107
01:48:35,320 --> 01:48:37,879
Speaker 9: We were framing through Hurricane Helene.

2108
01:48:38,600 --> 01:48:41,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was very He was very upset about it,

2109
01:48:41,400 --> 01:48:43,280
Speaker 1: which is okay, sir.

2110
01:48:43,840 --> 01:48:47,799
Speaker 9: Vance Oddly, you know, quickly accepted the climate change framing

2111
01:48:47,880 --> 01:48:51,000
Speaker 9: for the sake of the argument. Talked about how moving

2112
01:48:51,080 --> 01:48:54,120
Speaker 9: energy production from the quote unquote dirtiest parts of the

2113
01:48:54,160 --> 01:48:57,840
Speaker 9: world back to America, where we are the cleanest, would

2114
01:48:57,880 --> 01:48:59,960
Speaker 9: be one way to help.

2115
01:49:00,680 --> 01:49:03,240
Speaker 2: I think it would have worked on my dad. That response,

2116
01:49:03,400 --> 01:49:06,439
Speaker 2: Like the whole you know, well, weird claim, so we

2117
01:49:06,479 --> 01:49:10,040
Speaker 2: just got to bring back manufacturing. You know, it was

2118
01:49:10,520 --> 01:49:13,840
Speaker 2: not a bad answer in terms of doing what he

2119
01:49:13,920 --> 01:49:17,719
Speaker 2: needed to do. It was obviously nonsense, and the moderator

2120
01:49:17,760 --> 01:49:20,400
Speaker 2: called him very well on that, liked by just being like,

2121
01:49:20,439 --> 01:49:23,320
Speaker 2: by the way, like there's no argument amongst scientists about

2122
01:49:23,680 --> 01:49:28,280
Speaker 2: like how carbon impacts global warming. I think overall a tie,

2123
01:49:28,479 --> 01:49:32,120
Speaker 2: maybe slightly favoring walls that whole section. Like he did not, Oh,

2124
01:49:32,200 --> 01:49:33,719
Speaker 2: I don't think he did badly there.

2125
01:49:33,920 --> 01:49:35,880
Speaker 9: No, I think Wills did a good job connecting the

2126
01:49:35,880 --> 01:49:39,000
Speaker 9: economy to the environment. Yeah, how as the environment gets worse,

2127
01:49:39,040 --> 01:49:41,479
Speaker 9: the local economy gets worse, especially for like farmers, not

2128
01:49:41,520 --> 01:49:43,880
Speaker 9: like for yeah green New Deal Democrats, but for like

2129
01:49:43,920 --> 01:49:47,160
Speaker 9: everyday farmers, and again pivoted very quickly to just attacking

2130
01:49:47,160 --> 01:49:49,880
Speaker 9: Trump and Trump's climate denial. Tried to press Vance on

2131
01:49:49,920 --> 01:49:53,679
Speaker 9: Trump's climate denial, and Vance kind of you know, again,

2132
01:49:53,800 --> 01:49:56,960
Speaker 9: tried to just blame for manufacturing, saying that Kamala's like

2133
01:49:57,040 --> 01:50:01,360
Speaker 9: Rhetorican record does not match her actual action, which are

2134
01:50:01,479 --> 01:50:05,160
Speaker 9: increasing foreign manufacturing in general. Vans kind of fell back

2135
01:50:05,200 --> 01:50:08,080
Speaker 9: on a whole bunch of like nationalistic framing regarding the

2136
01:50:08,160 --> 01:50:11,880
Speaker 9: environment and regarding like the economy, especially manufacturing. That was

2137
01:50:11,880 --> 01:50:13,800
Speaker 9: one of his reoccurring talking points.

2138
01:50:14,160 --> 01:50:16,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we are getting to see some of the

2139
01:50:16,160 --> 01:50:18,879
Speaker 2: times as spend in real time where they just published

2140
01:50:18,960 --> 01:50:22,599
Speaker 2: Ross Duthat's article Vance's dominant debate performance shows why he's

2141
01:50:22,600 --> 01:50:26,360
Speaker 2: Trump's running mate, And the url of the article shows

2142
01:50:26,360 --> 01:50:29,120
Speaker 2: that it was initially put into the CMS about a

2143
01:50:29,120 --> 01:50:32,080
Speaker 2: week ago on the twenty fifth, and they dropped the

2144
01:50:32,200 --> 01:50:34,240
Speaker 2: article about halfway through the debate.

2145
01:50:34,400 --> 01:50:35,400
Speaker 11: So cool.

2146
01:50:36,160 --> 01:50:38,200
Speaker 2: That said, it's kind of unclear to me how the

2147
01:50:38,240 --> 01:50:39,479
Speaker 2: rest of this is going to shake out.

2148
01:50:39,600 --> 01:50:42,639
Speaker 9: I also could have written two articles, one where Vance

2149
01:50:42,680 --> 01:50:45,920
Speaker 9: did well and one where Walls did well. Yeah, but

2150
01:50:46,120 --> 01:50:47,439
Speaker 9: that is still that's funny.

2151
01:50:47,680 --> 01:50:49,760
Speaker 2: I don't know that that'll matter either. We'll see where

2152
01:50:49,800 --> 01:50:51,840
Speaker 2: people land. It was interesting to me Walls did do

2153
01:50:51,920 --> 01:50:54,680
Speaker 2: something that I liked twice. Neither time did he give

2154
01:50:54,720 --> 01:50:57,680
Speaker 2: it enough force, But he pointed out twice that a

2155
01:50:57,720 --> 01:51:00,240
Speaker 2: big part of the housing crisis is vcs buying up

2156
01:51:00,240 --> 01:51:03,240
Speaker 2: affordable housing, jacking up the price, jacking up the price

2157
01:51:03,240 --> 01:51:03,639
Speaker 2: of rent.

2158
01:51:03,640 --> 01:51:06,559
Speaker 3: That that is like a massive issue. He brought that up.

2159
01:51:06,600 --> 01:51:09,679
Speaker 2: He said housing shouldn't be treated as a commodity, which

2160
01:51:09,760 --> 01:51:12,519
Speaker 2: I never expected to hear from a candidate in one

2161
01:51:12,560 --> 01:51:15,680
Speaker 2: of these debates, but he brought them both up, like

2162
01:51:15,680 --> 01:51:17,960
Speaker 2: like a guy on a debate who is like just

2163
01:51:18,040 --> 01:51:20,040
Speaker 2: kind of throwing out a side point so you don't

2164
01:51:20,040 --> 01:51:22,920
Speaker 2: forget to say it as opposed to someone emphasizing it.

2165
01:51:23,000 --> 01:51:24,599
Speaker 2: The thing to do with jd. Vance is to point

2166
01:51:24,600 --> 01:51:27,240
Speaker 2: that you are one of those venture capitalists. You are

2167
01:51:27,320 --> 01:51:29,919
Speaker 2: one of the people who was hollowing out this country.

2168
01:51:30,280 --> 01:51:33,080
Speaker 2: And you know, Walls was good at trying to repeatedly

2169
01:51:33,120 --> 01:51:36,240
Speaker 2: say it's not migrants who are ruining like housing in

2170
01:51:36,280 --> 01:51:40,080
Speaker 2: this country, but he failed to connect enough and he

2171
01:51:40,160 --> 01:51:43,400
Speaker 2: had the pieces there to be like, it's guys like you, Yeah,

2172
01:51:43,439 --> 01:51:46,720
Speaker 2: it's fucking it's fucking white dudes in suits and earpieces

2173
01:51:46,760 --> 01:51:49,840
Speaker 2: who have made housing expensive. It is not people coming

2174
01:51:49,840 --> 01:51:52,840
Speaker 2: here from fucking Honduras, like it's people like you who

2175
01:51:52,920 --> 01:51:54,519
Speaker 2: need to be reigned in by the government. And he

2176
01:51:54,600 --> 01:51:58,000
Speaker 2: just wasn't willing to commit to the answer that he

2177
01:51:58,160 --> 01:52:00,000
Speaker 2: clearly had in his post.

2178
01:52:00,360 --> 01:52:02,760
Speaker 9: No, he just never went on the attack. And it's

2179
01:52:02,800 --> 01:52:05,760
Speaker 9: just odd because he kept he was probably coached on this,

2180
01:52:05,840 --> 01:52:08,040
Speaker 9: but like I think it's coaching. He did not do

2181
01:52:08,120 --> 01:52:10,400
Speaker 9: any of the things that gave him this job in

2182
01:52:10,439 --> 01:52:13,720
Speaker 9: the first place. He didn't play to any of his strengths. Instead,

2183
01:52:14,000 --> 01:52:17,400
Speaker 9: Vance was able to play to Vance's own strengths, and

2184
01:52:18,040 --> 01:52:21,919
Speaker 9: Walls was able to just be a slightly less polished moderate,

2185
01:52:22,240 --> 01:52:24,040
Speaker 9: Which why are you trying to frame him as a

2186
01:52:24,040 --> 01:52:26,679
Speaker 9: slightly less polished moderate going up against a debate kid

2187
01:52:26,760 --> 01:52:30,240
Speaker 9: like Vance? Walls needs to be like on the attack.

2188
01:52:30,280 --> 01:52:34,040
Speaker 9: He actually needs to show like a strong resistance in

2189
01:52:34,120 --> 01:52:36,240
Speaker 9: order to actually like make a large impact in the debate.

2190
01:52:36,240 --> 01:52:38,240
Speaker 9: And that's why I think this kind of largely swung

2191
01:52:38,320 --> 01:52:40,599
Speaker 9: towards Vance. Yes by the end, if they're both trying,

2192
01:52:40,640 --> 01:52:43,679
Speaker 9: if they're trying to court this same like moderate vote. Now,

2193
01:52:43,880 --> 01:52:47,040
Speaker 9: as always, the immigration section of these is always frustrating.

2194
01:52:47,560 --> 01:52:50,120
Speaker 9: No one talks about how fentanyl is largely brought in

2195
01:52:50,439 --> 01:52:53,000
Speaker 9: via citizens. No one feels the need to bring that up.

2196
01:52:53,880 --> 01:52:56,880
Speaker 9: CBS did have a little fact check, or not a

2197
01:52:56,920 --> 01:52:59,120
Speaker 9: fact check necessarily, but like a little comment talking about

2198
01:52:59,160 --> 01:53:04,000
Speaker 9: how the majority of Americans pulled are in favor of deportations.

2199
01:53:04,240 --> 01:53:08,600
Speaker 9: But they specifically asked Vance, like, how is your military

2200
01:53:08,640 --> 01:53:11,519
Speaker 9: deportation plan going to work? And willly separate like children

2201
01:53:11,520 --> 01:53:13,920
Speaker 9: that are born in the United States from illegal immigrants,

2202
01:53:14,240 --> 01:53:17,400
Speaker 9: and Vance just refused to answer that question repeatedly to

2203
01:53:17,479 --> 01:53:20,000
Speaker 9: try to get him to answer multiple times, he continually

2204
01:53:20,040 --> 01:53:23,400
Speaker 9: refused it, instead saying that, like Kamlass, border policy is

2205
01:53:23,439 --> 01:53:26,000
Speaker 9: already a child separation policy.

2206
01:53:27,320 --> 01:53:27,559
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2207
01:53:27,880 --> 01:53:29,920
Speaker 2: There was a great moment there where he got angry

2208
01:53:29,920 --> 01:53:33,000
Speaker 2: at them for fact checking, fact checking specifically on.

2209
01:53:33,080 --> 01:53:35,840
Speaker 9: His close but illegal immigrants in Springfield.

2210
01:53:36,240 --> 01:53:39,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because those migrants in fact had legal status.

2211
01:53:39,840 --> 01:53:41,519
Speaker 2: And he was like, you guys said you weren't going

2212
01:53:41,560 --> 01:53:42,120
Speaker 2: to fact check.

2213
01:53:42,160 --> 01:53:44,960
Speaker 11: No, no, no, he didn't say, he shouted, yeah.

2214
01:53:44,760 --> 01:53:47,559
Speaker 9: He yelled the rules were that you were not going

2215
01:53:47,640 --> 01:53:51,679
Speaker 9: to fact check that. He just explained how immigration like works,

2216
01:53:51,720 --> 01:53:52,960
Speaker 9: how legal immigration works.

2217
01:53:53,000 --> 01:53:55,720
Speaker 2: They were like, thank you for explaining how immigration were

2218
01:53:55,920 --> 01:53:56,280
Speaker 2: thank you.

2219
01:53:56,200 --> 01:53:59,040
Speaker 9: For explaining the legal process of immigration. This has been

2220
01:53:59,080 --> 01:54:01,400
Speaker 9: one thing that it has been doing on the campaign trails,

2221
01:54:01,439 --> 01:54:03,679
Speaker 9: just explaining the legal process of immigration and just saying

2222
01:54:04,040 --> 01:54:06,920
Speaker 9: I'm still going to call this illegal because I wanted

2223
01:54:07,000 --> 01:54:09,760
Speaker 9: to be illegal, And you're like, okay, you can't, Like

2224
01:54:10,560 --> 01:54:12,360
Speaker 9: I guess, I guess we could just use words to

2225
01:54:12,800 --> 01:54:13,719
Speaker 9: read whatever we want.

2226
01:54:13,960 --> 01:54:14,800
Speaker 3: Sure, why not?

2227
01:54:15,800 --> 01:54:20,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, if this comes out in the public opinion being

2228
01:54:20,160 --> 01:54:23,040
Speaker 2: in Walls's favor, it'll be because of those moments that

2229
01:54:23,080 --> 01:54:25,439
Speaker 2: one at the end, in those moments where Vance was

2230
01:54:25,479 --> 01:54:29,920
Speaker 2: like yelling and they cut out his mic at one point. Yeah,

2231
01:54:29,960 --> 01:54:32,600
Speaker 2: like that kind of stuff. I don't think.

2232
01:54:32,840 --> 01:54:34,560
Speaker 3: I don't know. Again, I don't think.

2233
01:54:34,440 --> 01:54:36,880
Speaker 2: Anyone's going to really listen to this be debate enough

2234
01:54:36,880 --> 01:54:39,640
Speaker 2: for there to be it to make much of an impact.

2235
01:54:39,680 --> 01:54:41,960
Speaker 2: But those were not great moments for him.

2236
01:54:42,120 --> 01:54:44,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, but those are the kind of things that get

2237
01:54:44,200 --> 01:54:47,520
Speaker 1: clipped out and spread across the internet. Yeah, so we'll see,

2238
01:54:47,880 --> 01:54:50,680
Speaker 1: and so the people that didn't watch the entire thing,

2239
01:54:50,840 --> 01:54:53,240
Speaker 1: well some of them will see clips like that.

2240
01:54:53,440 --> 01:54:53,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2241
01:54:53,720 --> 01:54:57,400
Speaker 9: I think the immigration section certainly showed kind of Walls

2242
01:54:57,400 --> 01:55:00,440
Speaker 9: in his stronger moments, talking about how the past year

2243
01:55:00,440 --> 01:55:03,600
Speaker 9: we've actually seen a decrease in opia deaths. He continued

2244
01:55:03,640 --> 01:55:06,080
Speaker 9: to talk about how Trump killed the bipartisan, a conservative

2245
01:55:06,080 --> 01:55:08,920
Speaker 9: immigration bill, which we're probably not fans of, but he's

2246
01:55:08,960 --> 01:55:12,560
Speaker 9: trying to make it play well electorally, and then pivoted

2247
01:55:12,560 --> 01:55:15,800
Speaker 9: to Springfield and said how like the Republican mayor came

2248
01:55:15,840 --> 01:55:17,280
Speaker 9: out and said none of this stuff was true, but

2249
01:55:17,320 --> 01:55:20,200
Speaker 9: Trump and Vance kept viewing it. State law enforcement had

2250
01:55:20,200 --> 01:55:23,400
Speaker 9: to escort kids to school. But even in this like

2251
01:55:23,440 --> 01:55:26,480
Speaker 9: Springfield section, which Walls was the first one to bring up,

2252
01:55:26,880 --> 01:55:30,240
Speaker 9: Vance was the big driver of this lie. But even

2253
01:55:30,280 --> 01:55:33,520
Speaker 9: in Walls's mention of this, he tried to separate Vance

2254
01:55:33,520 --> 01:55:36,800
Speaker 9: from Trump. He primarily blamed Trump for this and totally

2255
01:55:36,880 --> 01:55:41,120
Speaker 9: just like ignored Vance's massive contribution to this like big

2256
01:55:41,160 --> 01:55:44,600
Speaker 9: misinformation campaign that led to these bomb threats. He just

2257
01:55:44,720 --> 01:55:47,080
Speaker 9: let Vance get off easy. And I think this part

2258
01:55:47,160 --> 01:55:49,560
Speaker 9: was saved. Kind of buy this little fact check and

2259
01:55:49,640 --> 01:55:54,200
Speaker 9: Vance's little meltdown over this legal immigration comment. But still

2260
01:55:54,680 --> 01:55:57,240
Speaker 9: it kind of showed a little bit of Even in

2261
01:55:57,280 --> 01:56:00,880
Speaker 9: Walls's stronger moments, he refused to like really harp on

2262
01:56:01,000 --> 01:56:02,360
Speaker 9: Vance for being weird.

2263
01:56:02,920 --> 01:56:06,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, speaking of people who watched the debate, I don't

2264
01:56:06,960 --> 01:56:16,160
Speaker 2: think our sponsors did because they have real jobs.

2265
01:56:20,640 --> 01:56:22,800
Speaker 3: Hello, we are back now.

2266
01:56:23,000 --> 01:56:25,480
Speaker 9: One of the biggest issues for me in this campaign

2267
01:56:25,840 --> 01:56:30,280
Speaker 9: is how much time exactly did Walls spend in Hong Kong.

2268
01:56:30,400 --> 01:56:33,960
Speaker 9: This is literally one of the primary issues impacting my vote.

2269
01:56:34,200 --> 01:56:36,600
Speaker 2: There were one hundred and fifty thousand people in the

2270
01:56:36,680 --> 01:56:40,600
Speaker 2: streets in New York City today demanding to know whether

2271
01:56:40,720 --> 01:56:44,480
Speaker 2: or not Tim Walls was really in China during the

2272
01:56:44,520 --> 01:56:46,200
Speaker 2: Taneman Square uprisings.

2273
01:56:46,240 --> 01:56:49,560
Speaker 3: You know, thankfully CBS News is on the case.

2274
01:56:50,120 --> 01:56:54,800
Speaker 2: Yes, we didn't have a second for Ukraine, not one second.

2275
01:56:55,520 --> 01:56:58,520
Speaker 2: There was at no point any questions asked about the

2276
01:56:58,560 --> 01:57:01,000
Speaker 2: loss of life due to the had a side in Gaza,

2277
01:57:01,080 --> 01:57:01,480
Speaker 2: not one.

2278
01:57:01,960 --> 01:57:05,400
Speaker 3: But by god, this this was really goofy.

2279
01:57:05,480 --> 01:57:08,080
Speaker 9: Basically, they asked Walls with this comment he made in

2280
01:57:08,080 --> 01:57:11,000
Speaker 9: twenty fourteen about being in Hong Kong during the Taneman

2281
01:57:11,040 --> 01:57:14,640
Speaker 9: Square massacre, when kind of reporting shows that he only

2282
01:57:14,760 --> 01:57:17,560
Speaker 9: arrived in August basically like two or three months later.

2283
01:57:17,880 --> 01:57:21,560
Speaker 9: And I don't know if either Walls just misunderstood the

2284
01:57:21,680 --> 01:57:25,400
Speaker 9: question or purposely avoided it. But instead of talking with this,

2285
01:57:25,600 --> 01:57:28,920
Speaker 9: he summarized his entire career, both as a school teacher

2286
01:57:28,960 --> 01:57:33,400
Speaker 9: and in politics, and then emphasized that although he spent

2287
01:57:33,520 --> 01:57:37,360
Speaker 9: time in China, he is loyal to the United States.

2288
01:57:37,800 --> 01:57:40,200
Speaker 9: And it was just really odd and like you can

2289
01:57:40,240 --> 01:57:44,360
Speaker 9: even see events like slowly like smirking the longer. Walls

2290
01:57:44,480 --> 01:57:47,520
Speaker 9: just kept going on about his career, and at the

2291
01:57:47,640 --> 01:57:51,520
Speaker 9: end of his like weird like non answer about his

2292
01:57:51,520 --> 01:57:55,200
Speaker 9: commitment to the United States, the moderators asked again, They're like, well,

2293
01:57:55,520 --> 01:57:57,880
Speaker 9: were you there for the massacre, and then he very

2294
01:57:58,080 --> 01:58:00,800
Speaker 9: quickly clarified. I was like, uh, I mean, yeah, I

2295
01:58:00,880 --> 01:58:04,120
Speaker 9: might have. I might have misspoke. I don't understand why

2296
01:58:04,160 --> 01:58:06,480
Speaker 9: you wouldn't just very clearly say yeah, I misspoke. I

2297
01:58:06,560 --> 01:58:09,320
Speaker 9: was there for the aftermath of the massacre. I was

2298
01:58:09,360 --> 01:58:10,720
Speaker 9: there during the uprising.

2299
01:58:10,840 --> 01:58:14,040
Speaker 2: More I got misquoted. I was there the year of

2300
01:58:14,080 --> 01:58:14,880
Speaker 2: the uprising.

2301
01:58:15,040 --> 01:58:17,240
Speaker 9: Yeah, he was there during some of the uprising, but

2302
01:58:17,280 --> 01:58:19,800
Speaker 9: he was but he arrived in the aftermath of the massacre.

2303
01:58:20,040 --> 01:58:21,360
Speaker 9: I don't know why I can just say, yes, I

2304
01:58:21,440 --> 01:58:24,520
Speaker 9: arrived the aftermath of the massacre. I misspoke ten years ago.

2305
01:58:24,960 --> 01:58:28,120
Speaker 9: Like it's very simple. Your weird, long, two minute avoided

2306
01:58:28,160 --> 01:58:32,440
Speaker 9: answer just makes you, like look like weak and unnecessarily slimy.

2307
01:58:32,720 --> 01:58:33,760
Speaker 9: It doesn't make any sense.

2308
01:58:33,880 --> 01:58:37,560
Speaker 1: It just is weird because of course were gonna ask

2309
01:58:37,600 --> 01:58:40,640
Speaker 1: that question. Why why did you not have a prepared answer?

2310
01:58:40,960 --> 01:58:43,880
Speaker 9: I mean, this only became a new story today like this, this,

2311
01:58:43,880 --> 01:58:46,120
Speaker 9: this only became a new story like like a few

2312
01:58:46,120 --> 01:58:46,720
Speaker 9: hours ago.

2313
01:58:47,080 --> 01:58:50,680
Speaker 1: Still have some kind of a prepared generic answer.

2314
01:58:50,960 --> 01:58:51,960
Speaker 3: I'm sure he did.

2315
01:58:52,240 --> 01:58:54,360
Speaker 2: My guess is that if I was debate prepping him,

2316
01:58:54,360 --> 01:58:56,400
Speaker 2: I would have assumed they were going to ask one

2317
01:58:56,440 --> 01:58:58,800
Speaker 2: of the questions about his service based on all of

2318
01:58:58,800 --> 01:59:01,360
Speaker 2: like the different sort of like totally right wing shit

2319
01:59:01,400 --> 01:59:04,480
Speaker 2: coming out. Everything about his performance was the result of

2320
01:59:04,520 --> 01:59:08,760
Speaker 2: a guy who was over prepared and prepared by people

2321
01:59:08,800 --> 01:59:11,800
Speaker 2: whose focus was on him not upsetting the apple cart

2322
01:59:11,840 --> 01:59:14,400
Speaker 2: and embarrassing the campaign, not on him winning. That is

2323
01:59:14,480 --> 01:59:17,280
Speaker 2: how he was coached, and he was well prepared. As

2324
01:59:17,320 --> 01:59:19,400
Speaker 2: a general rule for the most part.

2325
01:59:19,600 --> 01:59:20,080
Speaker 3: When JD.

2326
01:59:20,240 --> 01:59:23,320
Speaker 2: Vance would like make a claim about Fitanel, he had

2327
01:59:23,360 --> 01:59:26,000
Speaker 2: a counter fact right that he could bring up, and

2328
01:59:26,040 --> 01:59:29,680
Speaker 2: he did that reasonably well. He seemed confident about the

2329
01:59:29,720 --> 01:59:32,920
Speaker 2: information he clearly put in the work, but none of

2330
01:59:32,960 --> 01:59:36,080
Speaker 2: what he was prepared for was hurting Vance. He was

2331
01:59:36,200 --> 01:59:41,040
Speaker 2: entirely prepared to not make an easy fuck up, which

2332
01:59:41,160 --> 01:59:43,240
Speaker 2: maybe is the smart move if you're just like, we

2333
01:59:43,360 --> 01:59:46,320
Speaker 2: just don't want this to upset anything, because there's no

2334
01:59:46,360 --> 01:59:49,680
Speaker 2: way it'll help. Like, my guess is that he was

2335
01:59:49,760 --> 01:59:53,400
Speaker 2: told going into this by his handlers, this debate is

2336
01:59:53,440 --> 01:59:55,520
Speaker 2: not going to win us the election, but it could

2337
01:59:55,560 --> 01:59:57,400
Speaker 2: lose us the election. So what we need to make

2338
01:59:57,440 --> 02:00:00,480
Speaker 2: sure happens is that you don't fuck anything up or

2339
02:00:00,560 --> 02:00:03,840
Speaker 2: seem too mean or seem too weird. Yourself, so we

2340
02:00:03,920 --> 02:00:07,600
Speaker 2: are going to like train you to be as boring

2341
02:00:07,640 --> 02:00:09,280
Speaker 2: as possible, and they did.

2342
02:00:09,120 --> 02:00:11,880
Speaker 9: That, and like, as a follow up, Vance was asked

2343
02:00:11,920 --> 02:00:15,720
Speaker 9: about his previous like anti Trump like Hitler comments and

2344
02:00:15,760 --> 02:00:17,920
Speaker 9: specifically was asked, like if he can be trusted to

2345
02:00:18,000 --> 02:00:20,720
Speaker 9: actually like give Trump good honest advice and not just

2346
02:00:20,760 --> 02:00:23,680
Speaker 9: to say whatever he thinks Trump wants to hear, which

2347
02:00:23,760 --> 02:00:27,120
Speaker 9: Vance gave us similarly avoidant answer and just talked about tariffs.

2348
02:00:27,400 --> 02:00:28,640
Speaker 3: And then the moderators did not.

2349
02:00:28,760 --> 02:00:31,960
Speaker 9: Follow up with Vance no about his avoided answers, So

2350
02:00:32,240 --> 02:00:34,879
Speaker 9: there you go. The abortion segment is basically a rehash

2351
02:00:34,880 --> 02:00:37,440
Speaker 9: of what happened in the in the Kamala Trump debate,

2352
02:00:37,920 --> 02:00:41,280
Speaker 9: with like Vance talking about a villain Minnesota who that

2353
02:00:41,360 --> 02:00:43,760
Speaker 9: he claimed like leads to the death of of like

2354
02:00:43,880 --> 02:00:47,640
Speaker 9: babies who were aborted like after birth or like some

2355
02:00:47,640 --> 02:00:50,800
Speaker 9: some some kind of odd thing that just isn't true. Yeah,

2356
02:00:50,960 --> 02:00:54,200
Speaker 9: that was That was pretty silly. This was one of

2357
02:00:54,240 --> 02:00:56,760
Speaker 9: the issues where he was weakest, and I think we

2358
02:00:56,760 --> 02:00:59,600
Speaker 9: were als maybe slightly upset that that Walls again was

2359
02:00:59,760 --> 02:01:02,840
Speaker 9: kind of was kind of hands off on this. Historically,

2360
02:01:02,960 --> 02:01:05,440
Speaker 9: Vance has made some a lot of crazy comments on

2361
02:01:05,480 --> 02:01:09,920
Speaker 9: podcasts about this topic, and neither the moderators nor Walls

2362
02:01:09,960 --> 02:01:12,920
Speaker 9: really pressed him super hard on it, and Advanced himself

2363
02:01:13,000 --> 02:01:15,200
Speaker 9: tried to largely be on the attack with this like

2364
02:01:15,400 --> 02:01:19,320
Speaker 9: late term abortion, killing babies after birth thing that Walls

2365
02:01:19,360 --> 02:01:21,040
Speaker 9: just tried to easily kind of brush aside.

2366
02:01:20,760 --> 02:01:22,400
Speaker 3: As just not being true.

2367
02:01:22,840 --> 02:01:26,720
Speaker 9: Speaking of healthcare, Vance oddly tried to claim that Trump

2368
02:01:26,880 --> 02:01:30,240
Speaker 9: like saved Obamacare. At this point in the debate, things

2369
02:01:30,320 --> 02:01:33,120
Speaker 9: just kind of started getting a little bit boring. I

2370
02:01:33,120 --> 02:01:35,960
Speaker 9: don't think this debate had as many like good questions

2371
02:01:36,000 --> 02:01:38,720
Speaker 9: as the last one. It was a very like twenty

2372
02:01:38,800 --> 02:01:40,040
Speaker 9: twelve style debate.

2373
02:01:40,160 --> 02:01:41,480
Speaker 11: It just flat.

2374
02:01:41,640 --> 02:01:44,080
Speaker 9: It was flat, It didn't feel kind of like present.

2375
02:01:44,480 --> 02:01:48,760
Speaker 9: So they talked about Obamacare, how Trump saved Obamacare, and

2376
02:01:48,880 --> 02:01:51,600
Speaker 9: Walls talking about how Trump hurt Obamacare. Just kind of

2377
02:01:51,640 --> 02:01:54,520
Speaker 9: boring back and forth, and then finally the last question

2378
02:01:54,680 --> 02:01:57,640
Speaker 9: was about like democracy in January sixth, election denial, that

2379
02:01:57,720 --> 02:02:00,560
Speaker 9: kind of stuff, and Vance opened by set like, we

2380
02:02:00,640 --> 02:02:04,720
Speaker 9: have other issues to solve beyond election denial. He said

2381
02:02:04,720 --> 02:02:07,280
Speaker 9: that we should we should have like open debate about

2382
02:02:07,360 --> 02:02:10,720
Speaker 9: the issues of the twenty twenty election. He then downplayed

2383
02:02:10,760 --> 02:02:14,640
Speaker 9: January sixth and emphasized instead the bigger threat to democracy

2384
02:02:15,040 --> 02:02:20,680
Speaker 9: was Facebook censorship and how people are like ending friendships

2385
02:02:20,720 --> 02:02:25,840
Speaker 9: over political disagreements, and this was bizarre. I think this

2386
02:02:26,000 --> 02:02:28,720
Speaker 9: was Wall's strongest moment. He talked about how there was

2387
02:02:28,840 --> 02:02:31,800
Speaker 9: one hundred and forty police officers assaulted on January sixth,

2388
02:02:32,280 --> 02:02:35,520
Speaker 9: some who later died. He mentioned this other story about

2389
02:02:35,520 --> 02:02:38,120
Speaker 9: how like on January sixth, there were similar protests in

2390
02:02:38,120 --> 02:02:40,360
Speaker 9: a whole bunch of different states, and he mentioned one

2391
02:02:40,360 --> 02:02:43,040
Speaker 9: in Minnesota where people threatened to march to his home

2392
02:02:43,480 --> 02:02:45,480
Speaker 9: and his kid and his dog needed to be like

2393
02:02:45,600 --> 02:02:48,880
Speaker 9: escorted out by police because people were like threatening to

2394
02:02:48,920 --> 02:02:51,040
Speaker 9: go to his home saying that there might be casualties.

2395
02:02:51,080 --> 02:02:52,560
Speaker 9: I thought that was maybe that was That was a

2396
02:02:52,560 --> 02:02:55,600
Speaker 9: pretty good moment. Four Walls brought up how people in

2397
02:02:55,680 --> 02:02:58,920
Speaker 9: January sixth tried to kill Mike Pence, which everyone seems

2398
02:02:58,920 --> 02:02:59,360
Speaker 9: to forget.

2399
02:03:00,480 --> 02:03:02,120
Speaker 11: It's not talked about enough.

2400
02:03:02,560 --> 02:03:05,640
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, look, that's one of those things where

2401
02:03:05,680 --> 02:03:08,040
Speaker 2: like my issues, so there are political, not about the

2402
02:03:08,080 --> 02:03:09,200
Speaker 2: specific add yes.

2403
02:03:09,160 --> 02:03:11,320
Speaker 11: Yes, yeah.

2404
02:03:11,520 --> 02:03:13,600
Speaker 9: Vance tried to be like, hey, you know, everyone does

2405
02:03:13,600 --> 02:03:17,040
Speaker 9: a little election denial. In twenty sixteen, there was Russia Gate,

2406
02:03:17,560 --> 02:03:20,000
Speaker 9: and I think Walls did a pretty good follow up

2407
02:03:20,280 --> 02:03:24,320
Speaker 9: by saying, like January sixth wasn't about Facebook ads, It

2408
02:03:24,400 --> 02:03:27,160
Speaker 9: wasn't like that wasn't the problem. The problem was the

2409
02:03:27,160 --> 02:03:29,920
Speaker 9: people storming the capital trying to kill everyone inside, like

2410
02:03:29,960 --> 02:03:32,800
Speaker 9: that was the real issue. And real censorship is stuff

2411
02:03:32,840 --> 02:03:34,840
Speaker 9: like book banning. First time we had a mention of

2412
02:03:34,840 --> 02:03:37,000
Speaker 9: any of that. But even in this section about Jay

2413
02:03:37,040 --> 02:03:40,120
Speaker 9: six he still like thanked Vance for having this conversation

2414
02:03:40,200 --> 02:03:43,560
Speaker 9: and then asked him if Trump lost the election, which

2415
02:03:43,920 --> 02:03:49,920
Speaker 9: Vance just avoided avoided answering, instead asking Walls, did convalesce

2416
02:03:50,040 --> 02:03:53,920
Speaker 9: censor Americans on Facebook? Which is just great. Yeah, it's

2417
02:03:54,040 --> 02:03:56,080
Speaker 9: a great, equally important problem.

2418
02:03:56,320 --> 02:03:59,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, these two issues, And unfortunately Walls's initial response was

2419
02:04:00,200 --> 02:04:04,480
Speaker 2: like I don't run Facebook, which just say he's lying, Like,

2420
02:04:05,920 --> 02:04:09,120
Speaker 2: just call him a liar to him, Yeah, he's a liar.

2421
02:04:09,560 --> 02:04:12,800
Speaker 9: It's wild that like we're talking about like January sixth,

2422
02:04:13,120 --> 02:04:16,400
Speaker 9: and Advance's biggest concern is people being banned on Facebook, Like,

2423
02:04:16,560 --> 02:04:18,320
Speaker 9: I think that's not going to play well for him.

2424
02:04:18,560 --> 02:04:19,560
Speaker 3: It's not going to play well.

2425
02:04:19,600 --> 02:04:22,520
Speaker 2: But also, yeah, it was just a missed opportunity. There

2426
02:04:22,520 --> 02:04:23,160
Speaker 2: were a lot of those.

2427
02:04:23,720 --> 02:04:25,880
Speaker 11: The entire debate was a missed opportunity.

2428
02:04:25,920 --> 02:04:29,840
Speaker 9: RT yeah, and like Walls is I think slight fumble here.

2429
02:04:29,960 --> 02:04:32,120
Speaker 9: You can point to his like closing statements saying like,

2430
02:04:32,360 --> 02:04:35,040
Speaker 9: I'm surprised that we have this coalition from like Bernie

2431
02:04:35,120 --> 02:04:38,320
Speaker 9: Sanders to Dick Cheney to Taylor Swift. You're like, yeah,

2432
02:04:38,320 --> 02:04:40,920
Speaker 9: that is that is a little surprising. Maybe that's the

2433
02:04:40,960 --> 02:04:41,760
Speaker 9: bit of the problem.

2434
02:04:41,920 --> 02:04:44,000
Speaker 3: Oh, that was a nightmare line for me.

2435
02:04:44,280 --> 02:04:48,640
Speaker 11: Of all the names to drop Dick Cheney.

2436
02:04:48,360 --> 02:04:51,040
Speaker 3: Dick Cheney and Taylor Swift hand in hands.

2437
02:04:50,840 --> 02:04:53,480
Speaker 2: Well, because like even among moderates, do you think Dick

2438
02:04:53,600 --> 02:04:54,640
Speaker 2: Cheney's popular?

2439
02:04:54,840 --> 02:04:57,400
Speaker 1: That was That was my last straw. I was like,

2440
02:04:57,480 --> 02:05:01,000
Speaker 1: who who prepped him? Who who did his debate prep?

2441
02:05:01,040 --> 02:05:02,320
Speaker 1: Who agreed that statement?

2442
02:05:02,440 --> 02:05:05,840
Speaker 2: Someone who really likes fucking Dick Cheney? Was it Carl Rove?

2443
02:05:05,920 --> 02:05:06,960
Speaker 2: Did they get Carl Rove?

2444
02:05:07,000 --> 02:05:08,200
Speaker 3: Again? God damn? It?

2445
02:05:08,280 --> 02:05:10,400
Speaker 11: Was Hillary involved with this debate prep?

2446
02:05:10,440 --> 02:05:12,360
Speaker 1: Like? Shoot, like, I know the Clinton's were involved with

2447
02:05:12,360 --> 02:05:14,520
Speaker 1: with Kalmwall's debate prep. Were they involved with with Tim

2448
02:05:14,520 --> 02:05:15,440
Speaker 1: Wallas's debate prep?

2449
02:05:15,520 --> 02:05:15,760
Speaker 3: Yeah?

2450
02:05:15,960 --> 02:05:18,120
Speaker 9: I'm not sure, But I think this kind of underlines

2451
02:05:18,520 --> 02:05:20,000
Speaker 9: I know this is kind of a larger issue with

2452
02:05:20,040 --> 02:05:22,360
Speaker 9: like the Democratic Party in the year twenty twenty four,

2453
02:05:22,760 --> 02:05:24,960
Speaker 9: but I think this also underlines, like my issue with

2454
02:05:25,040 --> 02:05:29,040
Speaker 9: Walls's performance here is, like this debate, both candidates were

2455
02:05:29,080 --> 02:05:32,000
Speaker 9: going after the Dick Cheney voter. They were going after

2456
02:05:32,120 --> 02:05:34,879
Speaker 9: like neo Khns and independence.

2457
02:05:34,640 --> 02:05:38,480
Speaker 3: The literal devil, yes and like for that base.

2458
02:05:38,680 --> 02:05:42,000
Speaker 9: I think Vance does appeal to them more in this debate.

2459
02:05:42,040 --> 02:05:43,880
Speaker 9: I think Vance did a better job appealing to those

2460
02:05:43,880 --> 02:05:46,320
Speaker 9: people in this debate, which left Walls coming off is

2461
02:05:46,400 --> 02:05:49,600
Speaker 9: just slightly worse and not really giving him any like

2462
02:05:49,680 --> 02:05:53,200
Speaker 9: standout like performances. I think if if Walls actually like

2463
02:05:53,280 --> 02:05:56,120
Speaker 9: emphasized all the reasons that Vance is a freak and

2464
02:05:56,240 --> 02:05:58,400
Speaker 9: is bad, I think that may have showed him to

2465
02:05:58,400 --> 02:06:00,360
Speaker 9: be more of a unique candidate. In stead dead they

2466
02:06:00,360 --> 02:06:02,480
Speaker 9: both came off as just kind of boring moderates, which

2467
02:06:02,520 --> 02:06:04,520
Speaker 9: just doesn't make sense because that's like the opposite reason

2468
02:06:04,760 --> 02:06:06,839
Speaker 9: that both of these men were picked for their chops.

2469
02:06:07,120 --> 02:06:09,600
Speaker 9: They were both picked to represent this slightly more extreme

2470
02:06:09,600 --> 02:06:11,760
Speaker 9: wing of the party, with Walls being a bit more

2471
02:06:11,800 --> 02:06:14,760
Speaker 9: progressive and Vance being a bit more fascist. Now it

2472
02:06:14,800 --> 02:06:17,720
Speaker 9: makes sense that Vance is going to go after the moderates.

2473
02:06:17,800 --> 02:06:21,120
Speaker 9: I just don't think Walls needed to agree. That's kind

2474
02:06:21,120 --> 02:06:23,920
Speaker 9: of all my all my thoughts on this riveting to

2475
02:06:24,040 --> 02:06:24,920
Speaker 9: our debate.

2476
02:06:24,920 --> 02:06:25,920
Speaker 11: I have to say me too.

2477
02:06:26,000 --> 02:06:29,960
Speaker 2: Man, Well, we've got a flash poll from CBS News

2478
02:06:30,040 --> 02:06:32,960
Speaker 2: forty two percent for Vance, forty one percent for Walls

2479
02:06:33,160 --> 02:06:34,640
Speaker 2: sixteen percent set a tie.

2480
02:06:34,920 --> 02:06:38,040
Speaker 11: Great, Yeah, that was the general. That was the general.

2481
02:06:38,480 --> 02:06:39,560
Speaker 3: That was the general vibe.

2482
02:06:39,720 --> 02:06:43,520
Speaker 11: Yep, Fox Fox News was Walls was good enough. Vance

2483
02:06:43,560 --> 02:06:44,440
Speaker 11: did just fine.

2484
02:06:45,160 --> 02:06:51,480
Speaker 1: No moderator's obnoxious, moderators smug an arrogant bias, but that's

2485
02:06:51,520 --> 02:06:52,360
Speaker 1: just typical.

2486
02:06:52,640 --> 02:06:55,520
Speaker 9: I think the moderators were fine. I think overall it

2487
02:06:55,560 --> 02:06:58,160
Speaker 9: wasn't a very well laid out debate. I think the

2488
02:06:58,240 --> 02:07:01,480
Speaker 9: fact that Vans was able to to be humanized with

2489
02:07:01,520 --> 02:07:05,320
Speaker 9: the assistance of Walls makes Vance kind of the winner

2490
02:07:05,400 --> 02:07:07,480
Speaker 9: in the way that like this did more to benefit

2491
02:07:07,520 --> 02:07:10,240
Speaker 9: Advance than it did to benefit Walls. And the fact

2492
02:07:10,280 --> 02:07:13,640
Speaker 9: that Walls kind of acted counterintuitively to his whole line

2493
02:07:13,680 --> 02:07:16,680
Speaker 9: of messaging from the past year is a fundamental mistake

2494
02:07:17,000 --> 02:07:20,360
Speaker 9: that I think. I hope that Democrats would like reevaluate

2495
02:07:20,560 --> 02:07:23,120
Speaker 9: going forward, but they're the Democrats, So.

2496
02:07:24,000 --> 02:07:27,600
Speaker 1: Just interesting, interesting take that I've seen online, and also

2497
02:07:27,640 --> 02:07:31,400
Speaker 1: a take for my Midwest moderate Democrat mother is she

2498
02:07:31,480 --> 02:07:34,280
Speaker 1: said to me, just remember Tim is from the Midwest.

2499
02:07:34,360 --> 02:07:38,360
Speaker 1: In Minnesota is the most Midwest there is. It is

2500
02:07:38,400 --> 02:07:41,320
Speaker 1: not it is nature to be anything but polite. Not

2501
02:07:41,440 --> 02:07:44,000
Speaker 1: what we're used to seeing in a debate, but it

2502
02:07:44,040 --> 02:07:45,320
Speaker 1: was a little refreshing.

2503
02:07:45,560 --> 02:07:48,880
Speaker 11: So okay, So I'm just.

2504
02:07:48,920 --> 02:07:51,760
Speaker 9: Saying, yeah, if you went into this already liking Walls,

2505
02:07:51,800 --> 02:07:53,240
Speaker 9: this won't make you dislike Walls.

2506
02:07:53,200 --> 02:07:54,960
Speaker 11: I'm already My mom definitely already liked.

2507
02:07:54,960 --> 02:07:56,520
Speaker 9: Right like and like. That's why I think this is

2508
02:07:56,560 --> 02:07:59,520
Speaker 9: largely just largely inconsequential. Even a vance got a little

2509
02:07:59,520 --> 02:08:02,440
Speaker 9: bit of a like up, it is largely inconsequential.

2510
02:08:02,640 --> 02:08:04,160
Speaker 11: Do you know who the winner of the debate was?

2511
02:08:04,440 --> 02:08:07,680
Speaker 1: Minnesota sounds like a great place to live, got great

2512
02:08:07,720 --> 02:08:08,560
Speaker 1: pr tonight.

2513
02:08:08,760 --> 02:08:12,640
Speaker 2: I guess so Walls was clearly doing the best here

2514
02:08:12,760 --> 02:08:15,720
Speaker 2: when he was like just talking about how nice Minnesota is.

2515
02:08:16,200 --> 02:08:18,720
Speaker 3: It's great here, and Tim, we.

2516
02:08:18,680 --> 02:08:20,480
Speaker 2: All know what the winters are like there. You're not

2517
02:08:20,480 --> 02:08:25,360
Speaker 2: fool You're not fooling anybody, Like, come on, sir. That said,

2518
02:08:25,400 --> 02:08:27,760
Speaker 2: if you live in the Portland area or really anywhere

2519
02:08:27,800 --> 02:08:31,560
Speaker 2: in southern California, move to Minnesota. Just get on out

2520
02:08:31,600 --> 02:08:33,840
Speaker 2: of here. You'll love it. You're gonna have a great time.

2521
02:08:34,080 --> 02:08:37,200
Speaker 2: Everyone in Minnesota is gonna love you. People love Californians

2522
02:08:37,240 --> 02:08:40,800
Speaker 2: when they move other places, it goes well. It's always happy,

2523
02:08:40,960 --> 02:08:43,560
Speaker 2: always always a good time. So if I had any

2524
02:08:43,720 --> 02:08:46,720
Speaker 2: advice to end on, it's people who are currently in

2525
02:08:46,760 --> 02:08:50,280
Speaker 2: Los Angeles move to Minnesota. You will be beloved. People

2526
02:08:50,280 --> 02:08:52,200
Speaker 2: will want to listen to your policy ideas.

2527
02:08:52,600 --> 02:09:14,440
Speaker 3: It'll be great. Hello and welcome. Pick it happened here

2528
02:09:14,480 --> 02:09:16,040
Speaker 3: the podcast where I take.

2529
02:09:15,920 --> 02:09:17,960
Speaker 8: An entire clidvine, put it in my mouth at once,

2530
02:09:18,080 --> 02:09:20,040
Speaker 8: and then try not to suffocate.

2531
02:09:21,600 --> 02:09:23,440
Speaker 3: That's that's what's already happened. You missed that.

2532
02:09:23,880 --> 02:09:26,640
Speaker 8: Maybe if you were a subscriber to Cooler Zone Media

2533
02:09:27,160 --> 02:09:28,879
Speaker 8: you would have been you wouldn't.

2534
02:09:29,080 --> 02:09:32,280
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I'm not doing that, not doing them with FCC.

2535
02:09:32,440 --> 02:09:35,160
Speaker 4: Note, Cooler Zone Media will not provide you access to

2536
02:09:35,160 --> 02:09:37,800
Speaker 4: footage the games Choking Client far.

2537
02:09:38,920 --> 02:09:42,720
Speaker 8: Yeah, that's only in a premium package. But we're not

2538
02:09:42,800 --> 02:09:45,600
Speaker 8: here today to talk about snacks. Sadly, that will be

2539
02:09:45,720 --> 02:09:48,080
Speaker 8: another podcast. We are here today to talk about my

2540
02:09:48,240 --> 02:09:52,320
Speaker 8: recent trip to the daddy En Gap in Panama. So

2541
02:09:52,360 --> 02:09:55,400
Speaker 8: I guess to start off with we should probably explain,

2542
02:09:55,720 --> 02:09:57,240
Speaker 8: like do you think me or I need to explain

2543
02:09:57,280 --> 02:09:58,480
Speaker 8: like where it is and what.

2544
02:09:58,760 --> 02:10:03,200
Speaker 4: Look I would the school with a kid who actually

2545
02:10:03,840 --> 02:10:07,480
Speaker 4: this happened multiple times more. No, I'm thinking back on it,

2546
02:10:07,640 --> 02:10:10,560
Speaker 4: like people who thought that the Arabian Peninsula was in Mexico.

2547
02:10:10,960 --> 02:10:14,280
Speaker 3: So like we in fact need to explain this.

2548
02:10:16,000 --> 02:10:21,160
Speaker 8: Yeah wow, yeah, okay, I'm just imagining that what a color?

2549
02:10:21,280 --> 02:10:22,760
Speaker 4: So how got it mixed up with mixed up with

2550
02:10:22,760 --> 02:10:27,760
Speaker 4: the Yucatan. It was really sort of wow, incredible stuff

2551
02:10:27,800 --> 02:10:29,680
Speaker 4: happening in my schools.

2552
02:10:31,000 --> 02:10:32,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, fascinating.

2553
02:10:33,000 --> 02:10:35,560
Speaker 8: Yeah, okay, So for those of you who are not familiar,

2554
02:10:35,920 --> 02:10:39,240
Speaker 8: the Dadian Gap is an area between Colombia and Panama

2555
02:10:39,680 --> 02:10:44,200
Speaker 8: that has historically, like I've seen a lot of characterizations

2556
02:10:44,200 --> 02:10:46,880
Speaker 8: of this which I think erased the existence to indigenous people,

2557
02:10:46,920 --> 02:10:50,800
Speaker 8: which shouldn't be shocking given the corporate media, right, But yeah,

2558
02:10:51,000 --> 02:10:54,400
Speaker 8: people have lived in this area for thousands of years.

2559
02:10:54,680 --> 02:10:57,160
Speaker 8: They have happy and fulfilled lives.

2560
02:10:57,200 --> 02:10:57,600
Speaker 3: They thrive.

2561
02:10:57,640 --> 02:11:00,480
Speaker 8: There is no desolate place. It's just a place that

2562
02:11:00,480 --> 02:11:03,760
Speaker 8: hasn't made itself amenable to capitalism. Really, it's a place

2563
02:11:04,040 --> 02:11:07,520
Speaker 8: between Colombia and Panama where there are no roads, there

2564
02:11:07,520 --> 02:11:11,320
Speaker 8: are not navigable rivers. It is extremely mountainous. It's one

2565
02:11:11,320 --> 02:11:14,240
Speaker 8: of the most humid places on Earth. It is covered

2566
02:11:14,320 --> 02:11:19,160
Speaker 8: in incredibly dense jungle. There are fast flowing rivers which

2567
02:11:19,200 --> 02:11:22,280
Speaker 8: you have to cross as you travel there. And for

2568
02:11:22,520 --> 02:11:25,160
Speaker 8: about half a million migrants last year, it was the

2569
02:11:25,160 --> 02:11:27,640
Speaker 8: only way that they could come from South America to

2570
02:11:27,720 --> 02:11:31,360
Speaker 8: Central America and they continue their journey on to North America.

2571
02:11:31,880 --> 02:11:34,760
Speaker 4: From a minder saying like, this isn't just people like

2572
02:11:35,160 --> 02:11:38,120
Speaker 4: from South America, Like, there's a bunch of other people

2573
02:11:38,120 --> 02:11:40,520
Speaker 4: who come into South America because it's easier to get

2574
02:11:40,520 --> 02:11:42,160
Speaker 4: in who are taking this route too.

2575
02:11:43,040 --> 02:11:43,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.

2576
02:11:43,960 --> 02:11:47,480
Speaker 8: So for most people who are coming to want to

2577
02:11:47,520 --> 02:11:50,000
Speaker 8: come to the United States, they can't fly directly the

2578
02:11:50,080 --> 02:11:52,280
Speaker 8: United States, right, it's quite rare to get their asylum

2579
02:11:52,320 --> 02:11:55,520
Speaker 8: that way, very rare. And there's a HNV Cuba, Haiti,

2580
02:11:55,600 --> 02:11:59,360
Speaker 8: nicaragu Venezuela program which in theory allows that it's backed

2581
02:11:59,440 --> 02:12:03,520
Speaker 8: up for like two years. So most people will fly

2582
02:12:03,800 --> 02:12:06,400
Speaker 8: to a country in South America. The most regular one

2583
02:12:06,440 --> 02:12:09,480
Speaker 8: is Brazil because Brazil doesn't impose visas on countries that

2584
02:12:09,560 --> 02:12:12,560
Speaker 8: don't impose visas on it, and then from there they

2585
02:12:12,600 --> 02:12:16,680
Speaker 8: begin making their way north. Geography understanders will realize that

2586
02:12:16,720 --> 02:12:18,880
Speaker 8: Brazil is a very long way from the United States.

2587
02:12:19,000 --> 02:12:23,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's very bad. Like that's that's not good. That's yeah,

2588
02:12:23,760 --> 02:12:24,640
Speaker 4: it's not good at all.

2589
02:12:25,080 --> 02:12:27,680
Speaker 8: Short of Argentina, you really, you really can't get that

2590
02:12:27,760 --> 02:12:30,720
Speaker 8: much further away, you know, in the continental southern America.

2591
02:12:31,360 --> 02:12:34,880
Speaker 8: So what people tend to do, especially so I spoke to,

2592
02:12:35,720 --> 02:12:37,560
Speaker 8: just off the top of my head, people from Nepal,

2593
02:12:37,680 --> 02:12:42,800
Speaker 8: people from India, people from Venezuela, people from Colombia, people

2594
02:12:42,800 --> 02:12:48,280
Speaker 8: from Angola, people from Cameroon, Togo, Iran. I spoke to

2595
02:12:48,320 --> 02:12:51,280
Speaker 8: a Kurdish guy that he was from Iran. I'm trying

2596
02:12:51,320 --> 02:12:53,040
Speaker 8: to think off the top of my head, that's most

2597
02:12:53,040 --> 02:12:53,360
Speaker 8: of them.

2598
02:12:53,400 --> 02:12:57,280
Speaker 3: Probably China, I know, there's I didn't speak to any

2599
02:12:57,360 --> 02:13:00,480
Speaker 3: Chinese migrants. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting.

2600
02:13:00,560 --> 02:13:03,160
Speaker 8: I went fully prepared with like a machine to translate

2601
02:13:03,200 --> 02:13:07,040
Speaker 8: and everything, and I didn't see any Chinese migrants, which

2602
02:13:07,080 --> 02:13:08,720
Speaker 8: is quite surprising.

2603
02:13:08,760 --> 02:13:10,680
Speaker 3: Haitian people, of course, respectal Lo Haitian people.

2604
02:13:11,240 --> 02:13:14,160
Speaker 8: The Chinese were coming through the dairy and gap in

2605
02:13:14,200 --> 02:13:16,800
Speaker 8: big numbers last year. The only thing I heard about

2606
02:13:17,000 --> 02:13:20,600
Speaker 8: Chinese migrants was that someone had seen the remains of

2607
02:13:20,640 --> 02:13:26,200
Speaker 8: someone who they described as Chinese. Yeah, so if you're

2608
02:13:26,200 --> 02:13:29,720
Speaker 8: not familiar with the journey. It is the most dangerous

2609
02:13:29,760 --> 02:13:33,040
Speaker 8: part of the migration route in the Americas right, It's

2610
02:13:33,080 --> 02:13:35,920
Speaker 8: one of the most dangerous migration routes on Earth. People

2611
02:13:36,080 --> 02:13:40,200
Speaker 8: have to walk for between two days and a week.

2612
02:13:40,360 --> 02:13:43,280
Speaker 8: I've heard even fifteen days, but the accounts I had

2613
02:13:43,360 --> 02:13:46,520
Speaker 8: maxed out a week. There is nowhere to get water,

2614
02:13:46,680 --> 02:13:49,440
Speaker 8: there is nowhere to get food. You have to walk

2615
02:13:49,520 --> 02:13:51,920
Speaker 8: through mud that can come up to your waste. You

2616
02:13:51,960 --> 02:13:54,520
Speaker 8: have to cross rivers that are higher than you are tall.

2617
02:13:55,920 --> 02:14:00,440
Speaker 8: You have to climb boulders, shemier across cliff faces. The

2618
02:14:00,480 --> 02:14:02,960
Speaker 8: accounts I heard and the things I saw were pretty horrible,

2619
02:14:03,080 --> 02:14:05,760
Speaker 8: like and we've kind of had a fun introduction, but

2620
02:14:06,920 --> 02:14:12,160
Speaker 8: I would rather go back to the uncertainty I had

2621
02:14:12,200 --> 02:14:14,840
Speaker 8: of like being in Syria last year and knowing that

2622
02:14:14,840 --> 02:14:18,400
Speaker 8: there were bombs falling on people every night, then have

2623
02:14:18,480 --> 02:14:21,920
Speaker 8: to see some of that stuff again. It's horrific. Like

2624
02:14:22,000 --> 02:14:25,680
Speaker 8: I can't really. I'm obviously working on a scripted series

2625
02:14:25,720 --> 02:14:28,440
Speaker 8: and we'll have that out soon. But like, in terms

2626
02:14:28,440 --> 02:14:31,480
Speaker 8: of the things that we do to each other, a humans,

2627
02:14:31,680 --> 02:14:35,280
Speaker 8: like little children die in the dairying gap all the time.

2628
02:14:36,280 --> 02:14:40,760
Speaker 8: People carry their babies across rivers on their shoulders. People

2629
02:14:40,800 --> 02:14:44,000
Speaker 8: carry other people's babies when people are too tired from

2630
02:14:44,040 --> 02:14:45,120
Speaker 8: carrying their own children.

2631
02:14:45,880 --> 02:14:48,160
Speaker 3: And not everyone who enters sleeves.

2632
02:14:48,400 --> 02:14:48,560
Speaker 6: Right.

2633
02:14:48,840 --> 02:14:51,360
Speaker 8: It's if you drink the water from the river, you'll

2634
02:14:51,360 --> 02:14:55,400
Speaker 8: probably die because there are dead bodies and upstream, right,

2635
02:14:55,480 --> 02:14:58,440
Speaker 8: this human waste in that river. If you fall and

2636
02:14:58,440 --> 02:15:01,880
Speaker 8: break your leg, you'll die. If you run out of water,

2637
02:15:02,880 --> 02:15:05,320
Speaker 8: You're not really in a place where anyone has any

2638
02:15:05,320 --> 02:15:06,560
Speaker 8: spare water to give you.

2639
02:15:07,200 --> 02:15:11,160
Speaker 3: It's horrific. Every single account of the gap that I

2640
02:15:11,240 --> 02:15:14,480
Speaker 3: heard was that no one should do it, that it's

2641
02:15:15,200 --> 02:15:18,360
Speaker 3: it's terrible, that it's in human, it's like nothing people

2642
02:15:18,400 --> 02:15:21,560
Speaker 3: have ever seen. But people don't have a choice, right,

2643
02:15:21,920 --> 02:15:25,600
Speaker 3: it's the only way for people I spoke to, Probably

2644
02:15:25,840 --> 02:15:28,640
Speaker 3: I have over one hundred interviews recorded, you know, I

2645
02:15:28,680 --> 02:15:31,240
Speaker 3: spoke to more people than that. The bust bulk of

2646
02:15:31,240 --> 02:15:33,800
Speaker 3: them were from Venezuela and a place where I used

2647
02:15:33,800 --> 02:15:39,200
Speaker 3: to live, And like, I understand that they lots of

2648
02:15:39,240 --> 02:15:41,360
Speaker 3: them have children, Some of them are bringing their children,

2649
02:15:41,400 --> 02:15:43,480
Speaker 3: some of them are going ahead and trying to send money, right,

2650
02:15:43,520 --> 02:15:45,200
Speaker 3: remittances back to their children. Right.

2651
02:15:45,880 --> 02:15:48,000
Speaker 8: And everyone said the same thing, that there's no future

2652
02:15:48,040 --> 02:15:50,640
Speaker 8: for them in their country, that they don't see a

2653
02:15:50,680 --> 02:15:55,240
Speaker 8: way of succeeding, of raising their families, of having a

2654
02:15:55,280 --> 02:15:59,560
Speaker 8: future for themselves. There, I met a translady from Venezuela

2655
02:15:59,600 --> 02:16:03,200
Speaker 8: who is saying that there are legal things in place

2656
02:16:03,240 --> 02:16:06,480
Speaker 8: that won't allow her to have her gender affirmed by documents. Right,

2657
02:16:06,480 --> 02:16:09,720
Speaker 8: she wasn't able to graduate with her degree.

2658
02:16:10,160 --> 02:16:11,000
Speaker 3: Jesus Christ.

2659
02:16:11,400 --> 02:16:16,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, like things are just completely deliberately torpedo.

2660
02:16:16,040 --> 02:16:18,640
Speaker 3: Your life just being who you are as yourself. Right.

2661
02:16:19,200 --> 02:16:25,120
Speaker 8: People aren't doing this because they want this fictional housing

2662
02:16:25,120 --> 02:16:27,840
Speaker 8: assistance or whatever it is that Trump and jadivans. People

2663
02:16:27,880 --> 02:16:30,600
Speaker 8: are doing this because they don't see a future for themselves.

2664
02:16:30,640 --> 02:16:34,240
Speaker 8: I spoke to Iranian women right who had been on

2665
02:16:34,280 --> 02:16:37,800
Speaker 8: the road for nearly a year trying to avoid prosecution

2666
02:16:38,000 --> 02:16:41,320
Speaker 8: at home for having participated in protests for like basic

2667
02:16:41,600 --> 02:16:47,360
Speaker 8: human rights. It's just the things I heard and saw

2668
02:16:48,000 --> 02:16:53,199
Speaker 8: were deeply, deeply upsetting. And I think it's really important

2669
02:16:53,240 --> 02:16:56,640
Speaker 8: that we, I guess, kind of bear witness to this

2670
02:16:56,760 --> 02:17:01,440
Speaker 8: because it doesn't really get discussed when the US media

2671
02:17:01,480 --> 02:17:04,680
Speaker 8: talks about migration. Maybe, if we're lucky, they'll come to

2672
02:17:04,720 --> 02:17:07,200
Speaker 8: the southern border for a day, right, And do some

2673
02:17:07,240 --> 02:17:10,880
Speaker 8: impressionistic peace on it. But like, pretty often they talk

2674
02:17:10,920 --> 02:17:13,480
Speaker 8: about migrants, but they don't talk to them, and so, like,

2675
02:17:13,720 --> 02:17:15,280
Speaker 8: I think it's important that we talk to them, and

2676
02:17:15,320 --> 02:17:16,959
Speaker 8: I think it's important that we face up to the

2677
02:17:17,000 --> 02:17:21,000
Speaker 8: fact that, like, this is a choice that the people

2678
02:17:21,440 --> 02:17:25,520
Speaker 8: who have been elected in this country have made. They've

2679
02:17:25,600 --> 02:17:29,320
Speaker 8: decided that the only way, for instance, the only place

2680
02:17:29,320 --> 02:17:32,160
Speaker 8: to use CBP one right is in southern.

2681
02:17:31,840 --> 02:17:34,000
Speaker 3: Mexico or north of Mexico City.

2682
02:17:34,440 --> 02:17:37,119
Speaker 4: Can you explain what CVP one is for people who

2683
02:17:37,160 --> 02:17:37,800
Speaker 4: don't remember.

2684
02:17:38,240 --> 02:17:41,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, sorry, So CBP one is an app that allows

2685
02:17:41,040 --> 02:17:45,879
Speaker 8: people to apply for an interview for asylum. Just to

2686
02:17:46,000 --> 02:17:49,080
Speaker 8: sort of skip ahead, I guess people understand that they

2687
02:17:49,080 --> 02:17:51,800
Speaker 8: have to use CBP one, and they understand that they

2688
02:17:51,800 --> 02:17:54,000
Speaker 8: can only do it in Mexico. And the people who

2689
02:17:54,040 --> 02:17:56,320
Speaker 8: I met in the dai Enna are now in Mexico.

2690
02:17:56,400 --> 02:17:56,520
Speaker 3: Right.

2691
02:17:56,520 --> 02:17:58,800
Speaker 8: They take a series of buses north, not all of them,

2692
02:17:58,959 --> 02:18:01,080
Speaker 8: I'll explain why of them haven't been able to leave

2693
02:18:01,120 --> 02:18:03,840
Speaker 8: Panama yet. They take a series of buses north and

2694
02:18:03,879 --> 02:18:06,200
Speaker 8: they get to the Guatemala Mexico border and they cross

2695
02:18:06,240 --> 02:18:09,160
Speaker 8: in Tapatula and then they work out the CBP one

2696
02:18:09,320 --> 02:18:13,000
Speaker 8: is not compatible with the vast majority of cell phones.

2697
02:18:13,640 --> 02:18:17,280
Speaker 8: It doesn't work with older Android like Samsung phones.

2698
02:18:17,400 --> 02:18:18,560
Speaker 3: Oh my fucking god.

2699
02:18:18,879 --> 02:18:25,240
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, it works with iPhones. And I didn't see

2700
02:18:25,240 --> 02:18:27,760
Speaker 8: a thing or person with an iPhone. If you're wealthy,

2701
02:18:28,800 --> 02:18:30,600
Speaker 8: you can avoid the daily end, right. There are ways

2702
02:18:30,640 --> 02:18:32,920
Speaker 8: you can go around in a boat. There are ways

2703
02:18:32,920 --> 02:18:34,680
Speaker 8: that you can sort of take a shorter route. The

2704
02:18:34,760 --> 02:18:38,560
Speaker 8: route that I was on is the route that people

2705
02:18:38,560 --> 02:18:40,880
Speaker 8: who do not have the resources to avoid this dreadful

2706
02:18:40,959 --> 02:18:44,000
Speaker 8: journey take. And now they get to Mexico and they

2707
02:18:44,040 --> 02:18:46,560
Speaker 8: realize that, yeah, you have to get to Mexico to

2708
02:18:46,560 --> 02:18:48,600
Speaker 8: make the application right, and the way to get there

2709
02:18:48,680 --> 02:18:50,520
Speaker 8: is to cross the dairy end. And then when you

2710
02:18:50,560 --> 02:18:52,959
Speaker 8: get there, you realize that this thing requires you'd have

2711
02:18:53,000 --> 02:18:54,920
Speaker 8: a special telephone that you don't have.

2712
02:18:55,879 --> 02:18:59,280
Speaker 4: And it's just very bleak. It's a level of human evil,

2713
02:18:59,520 --> 02:19:01,760
Speaker 4: both in the sense of it has been actively designed

2714
02:19:01,840 --> 02:19:03,680
Speaker 4: like this and in this sense that they don't give

2715
02:19:03,720 --> 02:19:06,520
Speaker 4: a shit, like the fact that that fucking app doesn't

2716
02:19:06,600 --> 02:19:08,800
Speaker 4: work on androids, it doesn't work older androids, the fact

2717
02:19:08,800 --> 02:19:13,640
Speaker 4: that the app fucking sucks shit like the entire way. Yeah,

2718
02:19:13,680 --> 02:19:15,959
Speaker 4: like everything about this, Johnny, it's.

2719
02:19:15,800 --> 02:19:23,360
Speaker 8: Designed to be painful, to kill people, to strip away

2720
02:19:23,600 --> 02:19:24,879
Speaker 8: like the hope that people have.

2721
02:19:25,120 --> 02:19:26,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's and it's designed to do this to

2722
02:19:26,959 --> 02:19:31,280
Speaker 4: like attempt to satiate the fucking insane bloodlust of like

2723
02:19:31,520 --> 02:19:37,080
Speaker 4: seven dipshits and fucking like rural southern Illinois. And it's like, Okay,

2724
02:19:37,400 --> 02:19:40,120
Speaker 4: there's literally nothing you can do to ever appease these people.

2725
02:19:40,160 --> 02:19:42,280
Speaker 4: The only the only thing that will ever appease them

2726
02:19:42,440 --> 02:19:45,560
Speaker 4: is their own death. Like, nothing you're ever going to

2727
02:19:45,600 --> 02:19:49,039
Speaker 4: do to these fucking immigrants is ever going to make

2728
02:19:49,120 --> 02:19:52,120
Speaker 4: these people like like you could, You could, fucking you

2729
02:19:52,120 --> 02:19:53,760
Speaker 4: could put these people in a country that has zero

2730
02:19:53,760 --> 02:19:55,640
Speaker 4: immigrants at all, and they would still scream about it.

2731
02:19:55,640 --> 02:19:57,840
Speaker 4: There's there's nothing you can fucking do. And people have

2732
02:19:57,920 --> 02:20:01,959
Speaker 4: decided that in order to basically people have decided in

2733
02:20:02,000 --> 02:20:04,520
Speaker 4: order to try to get like a one percent higher

2734
02:20:04,600 --> 02:20:07,199
Speaker 4: margin in an election, they're probably still going to lose.

2735
02:20:07,320 --> 02:20:13,840
Speaker 4: They're going to just fucking inflict inhuman suffering on unbelievably

2736
02:20:13,879 --> 02:20:14,800
Speaker 4: large numbers of people.

2737
02:20:14,959 --> 02:20:19,400
Speaker 8: Yeah, Like I think that's the thing I want people

2738
02:20:19,440 --> 02:20:23,120
Speaker 8: to really like grasp is like somebody has made a

2739
02:20:23,160 --> 02:20:27,520
Speaker 8: decision maybe we should take an ad break care advertising break.

2740
02:20:38,800 --> 02:20:39,680
Speaker 3: All right, we're back.

2741
02:20:40,200 --> 02:20:42,480
Speaker 8: So specifically, I want to talk about what the US

2742
02:20:42,600 --> 02:20:44,840
Speaker 8: is doing right now in Panama, what it started doing

2743
02:20:44,840 --> 02:20:46,760
Speaker 8: since July. Right, that's why I wanted to go when

2744
02:20:46,760 --> 02:20:50,800
Speaker 8: I did. Panama had to change the presidency in July.

2745
02:20:50,959 --> 02:20:53,800
Speaker 8: We have Molina as president now and he's promised to

2746
02:20:53,840 --> 02:20:57,240
Speaker 8: close the Darien. Right, if your source was his social media,

2747
02:20:57,280 --> 02:20:59,240
Speaker 8: then you would think it was closed. I saw about

2748
02:20:59,240 --> 02:21:02,200
Speaker 8: a thousand people day crossing. None of them had seen

2749
02:21:02,200 --> 02:21:04,240
Speaker 8: a barrier, none of them had seen the razor wire,

2750
02:21:04,320 --> 02:21:07,320
Speaker 8: but he's posted about they didn't know that it was

2751
02:21:07,320 --> 02:21:10,200
Speaker 8: this thing. What they did know was that the US

2752
02:21:10,240 --> 02:21:13,280
Speaker 8: had an election in November, and everybody wants to get

2753
02:21:13,320 --> 02:21:16,240
Speaker 8: here before that. Yeah, you know, I tried to explain that,

2754
02:21:16,280 --> 02:21:19,120
Speaker 8: like we actually don't transition power immediately right that that

2755
02:21:19,160 --> 02:21:23,000
Speaker 8: happens in January, but everybody is concerned to get here

2756
02:21:23,040 --> 02:21:26,680
Speaker 8: before the election. And what the US is doing in

2757
02:21:26,720 --> 02:21:32,480
Speaker 8: Panama is the US is currently funding deportations, and I

2758
02:21:32,520 --> 02:21:37,280
Speaker 8: like saw that happening firsthand. With this is this is

2759
02:21:37,320 --> 02:21:39,320
Speaker 8: honestly one of those things that just really fucks me up,

2760
02:21:39,320 --> 02:21:42,560
Speaker 8: and like I need to ye like I don't know

2761
02:21:42,760 --> 02:21:45,840
Speaker 8: it just I tried to record stuff at a time,

2762
02:21:45,920 --> 02:21:47,879
Speaker 8: and I just it's all just me saying this sucks,

2763
02:21:47,879 --> 02:21:51,560
Speaker 8: this is terrible. This like what it looks like is

2764
02:21:51,560 --> 02:21:54,800
Speaker 8: so you leave bab Jaqito, right, which is Barjiquito is

2765
02:21:54,840 --> 02:21:58,840
Speaker 8: an indigenous village. It's a village of the Ember people

2766
02:21:59,040 --> 02:22:01,240
Speaker 8: who will wonderful. There were nothing but kind to me.

2767
02:22:02,560 --> 02:22:04,840
Speaker 8: I stayed in their houses for a week and slept

2768
02:22:04,920 --> 02:22:08,240
Speaker 8: in my hammock in their house. I shared their food,

2769
02:22:08,760 --> 02:22:12,760
Speaker 8: held their little babies like they were incredible and client

2770
02:22:12,800 --> 02:22:17,360
Speaker 8: hosts and very grateful to them. From Baljaquito, which is

2771
02:22:17,680 --> 02:22:22,240
Speaker 8: this tiny village right. The population of Barjiqito triples every day.

2772
02:22:22,440 --> 02:22:24,920
Speaker 8: Five hundred people live there. A thousand people roll up

2773
02:22:24,959 --> 02:22:29,360
Speaker 8: every day and then they're transported in dugout canoes, like

2774
02:22:29,400 --> 02:22:32,920
Speaker 8: a tiny canoe that is carved out from the trunk

2775
02:22:32,920 --> 02:22:35,480
Speaker 8: of a tree. They're two stroke bolted on the bag.

2776
02:22:36,200 --> 02:22:37,720
Speaker 8: I think I posted a picture on Twitter. If not,

2777
02:22:37,760 --> 02:22:40,119
Speaker 8: I will do. The micros are taken upstream. They paid

2778
02:22:40,120 --> 02:22:42,920
Speaker 8: twenty five bucks each and they're taken five hours upstream.

2779
02:22:43,240 --> 02:22:46,560
Speaker 8: If they don't have the money, there's three canoes every

2780
02:22:46,640 --> 02:22:49,520
Speaker 8: day that are provided for free, and they generally try

2781
02:22:49,560 --> 02:22:51,200
Speaker 8: and make sure that all the women and children get

2782
02:22:51,200 --> 02:22:52,160
Speaker 8: in those canoes right.

2783
02:22:52,760 --> 02:22:54,240
Speaker 3: One of the things that them but I has done

2784
02:22:54,360 --> 02:22:55,359
Speaker 3: has made everyone.

2785
02:22:55,080 --> 02:22:58,000
Speaker 8: Wear life jackets just because a lot of these people

2786
02:22:58,000 --> 02:22:58,480
Speaker 8: can't swim.

2787
02:22:58,520 --> 02:22:58,600
Speaker 4: Right.

2788
02:22:58,600 --> 02:23:00,000
Speaker 3: They've been crossing rivers above their head.

2789
02:23:00,520 --> 02:23:02,760
Speaker 8: They told me that they made human chains, right, so

2790
02:23:02,840 --> 02:23:06,199
Speaker 8: everybody sort of locks their arms together because the rivers

2791
02:23:06,320 --> 02:23:09,959
Speaker 8: wash people away. They're transported from Bajuguesel to a place

2792
02:23:10,000 --> 02:23:14,000
Speaker 8: called Lajas Blancas, which is the first migrant reception center

2793
02:23:14,000 --> 02:23:16,920
Speaker 8: in Panama. So they're now leaving like they don't have

2794
02:23:17,000 --> 02:23:21,160
Speaker 8: reservations in Panama. But they're in the Embra Bunan comarca.

2795
02:23:21,200 --> 02:23:23,240
Speaker 8: And then when they get there, they're in the daddy

2796
02:23:23,320 --> 02:23:26,520
Speaker 8: En Comarcas. So they're in sort of outside of an

2797
02:23:26,560 --> 02:23:30,880
Speaker 8: almost entirely indigenous state of Panama and in like what

2798
02:23:30,920 --> 02:23:33,879
Speaker 8: you would consider like Panamanian government custody.

2799
02:23:33,920 --> 02:23:36,800
Speaker 3: I guess when they enter in Lahas Blancas, and.

2800
02:23:36,720 --> 02:23:39,959
Speaker 8: When they get there, they register, right, they show their passport,

2801
02:23:40,000 --> 02:23:42,680
Speaker 8: they do all that stuff, and that's where the UN

2802
02:23:42,720 --> 02:23:45,360
Speaker 8: has shelters with the Red Cross has a facility there.

2803
02:23:45,440 --> 02:23:50,160
Speaker 8: The Highs has of the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society Global brigades,

2804
02:23:50,200 --> 02:23:52,000
Speaker 8: all these big NGOs that you're used to seeing in

2805
02:23:52,040 --> 02:23:56,519
Speaker 8: these places have facilities there. But to leave Las Blancas,

2806
02:23:56,600 --> 02:23:59,959
Speaker 8: they need sixty bucks per person to get on a bus, right,

2807
02:24:00,600 --> 02:24:02,520
Speaker 8: and if they don't have sixty bucks to get on

2808
02:24:02,520 --> 02:24:04,640
Speaker 8: the bus. I was told these buses are owned by

2809
02:24:04,720 --> 02:24:07,800
Speaker 8: Panamanian parliamentary deputies, but I haven't been able to confirm that.

2810
02:24:08,040 --> 02:24:09,240
Speaker 3: Uh fucking crush.

2811
02:24:09,360 --> 02:24:13,119
Speaker 8: Yeah, someone is putting fifty five people on a bus,

2812
02:24:13,320 --> 02:24:17,000
Speaker 8: taking sixty bucks from each of them, and sending about

2813
02:24:17,000 --> 02:24:20,920
Speaker 8: twenty buses a day, Like someone is making a lot

2814
02:24:21,040 --> 02:24:21,640
Speaker 8: of money.

2815
02:24:21,959 --> 02:24:23,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, people will remember that.

2816
02:24:23,879 --> 02:24:26,720
Speaker 8: One of these buses crashed last year, killing forty two migrants.

2817
02:24:27,600 --> 02:24:30,360
Speaker 8: But the really big thing is it is not the bus.

2818
02:24:30,400 --> 02:24:33,480
Speaker 8: It's not the ten hour bus ride. Like those people

2819
02:24:33,480 --> 02:24:35,680
Speaker 8: are so happy to be getting on the bus because

2820
02:24:35,720 --> 02:24:38,560
Speaker 8: they're continuing. It's the people who don't have sixty bucks

2821
02:24:38,959 --> 02:24:42,640
Speaker 8: and like, yeah, they've made it this far with a

2822
02:24:42,680 --> 02:24:46,760
Speaker 8: combination of whatever savings they had and like incredible tenacity. Right,

2823
02:24:46,840 --> 02:24:50,800
Speaker 8: Like they pay someone in Columbia obviously to bring them

2824
02:24:50,920 --> 02:24:52,760
Speaker 8: so to get to the start of their walk in

2825
02:24:52,800 --> 02:24:54,840
Speaker 8: Deli end. They leave from neck or Clee in Colombia,

2826
02:24:54,920 --> 02:24:58,160
Speaker 8: come across on a lancha like a speedboat, and then

2827
02:24:58,280 --> 02:25:00,520
Speaker 8: they walk up to the Columbian border where the guides

2828
02:25:00,560 --> 02:25:03,960
Speaker 8: and leave them. Now the guides are obviously like this

2829
02:25:04,040 --> 02:25:06,520
Speaker 8: area is controlled by the golf cartel in Columbia, right,

2830
02:25:06,560 --> 02:25:08,960
Speaker 8: so they have safe passage through that area. None of

2831
02:25:09,000 --> 02:25:10,920
Speaker 8: them had anything bad to say about that area. It's

2832
02:25:10,959 --> 02:25:12,880
Speaker 8: when the guides leave them and they're on their own

2833
02:25:12,920 --> 02:25:16,960
Speaker 8: into Panama. That's when they didn't have water. They didn't

2834
02:25:16,959 --> 02:25:19,600
Speaker 8: have food because no one's told them they need water

2835
02:25:19,640 --> 02:25:21,400
Speaker 8: and food to be fair, right like that they weren't.

2836
02:25:21,760 --> 02:25:23,080
Speaker 8: I didn't think it was going to take as long

2837
02:25:23,120 --> 02:25:25,200
Speaker 8: as it was, be as hard as it was. It's not.

2838
02:25:25,320 --> 02:25:27,400
Speaker 8: So I've learned a little bit from tiktoks and stuff,

2839
02:25:27,440 --> 02:25:29,560
Speaker 8: so some of them bring a bit more. But four

2840
02:25:29,640 --> 02:25:31,800
Speaker 8: days of water is a lot of water, like speaking

2841
02:25:31,840 --> 02:25:34,600
Speaker 8: from experience. So backpack in the desert. If you don't

2842
02:25:34,600 --> 02:25:36,280
Speaker 8: have the right equipment, it's hard to carry.

2843
02:25:36,600 --> 02:25:40,280
Speaker 4: So yeah, suit is heavy, yeah right, like you like

2844
02:25:40,320 --> 02:25:43,160
Speaker 4: that's the other part, Like if you want four liters

2845
02:25:43,200 --> 02:25:46,439
Speaker 4: a person, right, that's like going to be four kilograms

2846
02:25:46,959 --> 02:25:47,959
Speaker 4: and that's a day.

2847
02:25:48,360 --> 02:25:50,000
Speaker 3: So most like that. By four days.

2848
02:25:50,160 --> 02:25:53,600
Speaker 4: What is it in pounds eight point eight pounds, it's

2849
02:25:53,760 --> 02:25:57,240
Speaker 4: four liters. Yeah, you're also carrying this like through the

2850
02:25:57,280 --> 02:26:02,200
Speaker 4: fucking jungle, which is just like everything's wet all the time, right,

2851
02:26:02,240 --> 02:26:05,240
Speaker 4: you're sweating, you're crossing rivers, your feet are always wet,

2852
02:26:05,240 --> 02:26:08,320
Speaker 4: like everyone's feet when they arrive in Last Blankas.

2853
02:26:08,320 --> 02:26:09,120
Speaker 3: I took pictures of this.

2854
02:26:09,240 --> 02:26:11,560
Speaker 8: But they all have these crappy boots that they buy

2855
02:26:11,680 --> 02:26:17,119
Speaker 8: Nika Clean Plumbia, and every bin in Baquito is full

2856
02:26:17,120 --> 02:26:19,960
Speaker 8: of these boots because they suck, and people like the

2857
02:26:19,959 --> 02:26:24,360
Speaker 8: blisters I saw, and like people getting trench foot right,

2858
02:26:24,440 --> 02:26:26,520
Speaker 8: like where the entire skin on their foot is just

2859
02:26:26,560 --> 02:26:31,400
Speaker 8: ready to slough off like a glove. Like everyone buys

2860
02:26:31,440 --> 02:26:35,200
Speaker 8: these crocs from a vendor in Bajiquito there, but.

2861
02:26:35,240 --> 02:26:36,600
Speaker 3: Like they can get through all that.

2862
02:26:36,640 --> 02:26:39,440
Speaker 8: They everyone who I met in Bajo Chiquito, everyone who

2863
02:26:39,480 --> 02:26:43,959
Speaker 8: I met on the trail, had made right. They through tenacity,

2864
02:26:44,240 --> 02:26:45,960
Speaker 8: and like a lot of people said it like it's

2865
02:26:45,959 --> 02:26:48,600
Speaker 8: a roulette. You go in there and you hope for

2866
02:26:48,640 --> 02:26:50,920
Speaker 8: the best. Not everyone makes it, but most of them do.

2867
02:26:51,280 --> 02:26:54,320
Speaker 8: So the people who had made it get to go

2868
02:26:54,360 --> 02:26:57,000
Speaker 8: to LaaS Blankets, right, and if they can't afford the

2869
02:26:57,920 --> 02:27:00,680
Speaker 8: boat from Bak to the last blank they can walk.

2870
02:27:01,160 --> 02:27:03,640
Speaker 8: It's non fine, it's not very hours of walking, right,

2871
02:27:03,840 --> 02:27:05,560
Speaker 8: And then some of those guys one day and I

2872
02:27:06,160 --> 02:27:07,840
Speaker 8: gave them water filters and stuff.

2873
02:27:07,920 --> 02:27:09,119
Speaker 3: I wasn't allowed to walk.

2874
02:27:08,959 --> 02:27:13,640
Speaker 8: With them, but I was able to talk with them,

2875
02:27:13,680 --> 02:27:15,600
Speaker 8: and I spoke to them again when they arrived, right,

2876
02:27:15,680 --> 02:27:18,840
Speaker 8: And they get to last blankets and they just if

2877
02:27:18,879 --> 02:27:20,880
Speaker 8: they don't have sixty bucks, then they don't have it. And

2878
02:27:20,920 --> 02:27:23,320
Speaker 8: then they stay there sometimes for months, and this is

2879
02:27:23,480 --> 02:27:26,320
Speaker 8: not a place to stay for months. Like they have

2880
02:27:26,360 --> 02:27:28,840
Speaker 8: little casitas which they have for like this one for

2881
02:27:28,920 --> 02:27:32,320
Speaker 8: unaccompanied children, and then others I think are allocated to families.

2882
02:27:33,200 --> 02:27:35,200
Speaker 8: But it's not much more than four walls in a roof,

2883
02:27:35,200 --> 02:27:37,199
Speaker 8: and most people don't even get that, right. Most people

2884
02:27:37,200 --> 02:27:39,720
Speaker 8: are looking for a flat spot to pitch the shitty

2885
02:27:39,760 --> 02:27:43,280
Speaker 8: tent that they bought in Colombia. And then they're just

2886
02:27:43,560 --> 02:27:47,240
Speaker 8: stuck there. And there's obviously a relatively new policy. They

2887
02:27:47,320 --> 02:27:49,520
Speaker 8: used to take five free people per bus, but they

2888
02:27:49,560 --> 02:27:50,279
Speaker 8: don't anymore.

2889
02:27:51,280 --> 02:27:52,240
Speaker 3: Like from bar.

2890
02:27:52,280 --> 02:27:54,720
Speaker 8: Jigito they have three free boats a day, right, but

2891
02:27:55,280 --> 02:27:57,800
Speaker 8: leaving last blancats, if you don't have the money, then

2892
02:27:57,800 --> 02:28:00,720
Speaker 8: you don't leave. And the people I spoke to there

2893
02:28:01,440 --> 02:28:03,320
Speaker 8: who are stuck there are still stuck there. People have

2894
02:28:03,360 --> 02:28:06,080
Speaker 8: been stuck there for more than a month. Their children

2895
02:28:06,120 --> 02:28:11,039
Speaker 8: aren't going to school, they're sleeping on the ground. This

2896
02:28:11,120 --> 02:28:12,960
Speaker 8: is not a place that's designed to be a long

2897
02:28:13,040 --> 02:28:15,280
Speaker 8: term residence. It's designed to be like one night and

2898
02:28:15,360 --> 02:28:19,840
Speaker 8: moving through. And every day new people arrive who can't

2899
02:28:19,840 --> 02:28:22,720
Speaker 8: afford it, and so the population is growing and growing

2900
02:28:22,800 --> 02:28:26,440
Speaker 8: and growing, and there seems to be no solution. No

2901
02:28:26,480 --> 02:28:31,400
Speaker 8: one I spoke to could point to what they want

2902
02:28:31,480 --> 02:28:34,440
Speaker 8: them to do right, Like they're being given free food

2903
02:28:34,440 --> 02:28:36,760
Speaker 8: by the government. Some of them said the food wasn't great.

2904
02:28:37,440 --> 02:28:39,800
Speaker 8: I'm not sure if it's halal like sometimes some of

2905
02:28:39,840 --> 02:28:41,920
Speaker 8: them said they'd seen food that had pork in it.

2906
02:28:42,480 --> 02:28:43,879
Speaker 8: But I didn't see any food to have pork in

2907
02:28:43,879 --> 02:28:45,560
Speaker 8: it when I was there, so maybe that's been changed.

2908
02:28:46,480 --> 02:28:51,480
Speaker 8: But they're just stuck there. Yeah, there's nothing they can

2909
02:28:51,560 --> 02:28:53,960
Speaker 8: do right. If they want to have money transferred there,

2910
02:28:55,000 --> 02:28:58,119
Speaker 8: they can do it through a local intermediary who charges

2911
02:28:58,120 --> 02:29:01,000
Speaker 8: the twenty five percent fee. If you don't have sixty

2912
02:29:01,080 --> 02:29:04,440
Speaker 8: list Yeah, like you need seventy five bucks now, right

2913
02:29:04,480 --> 02:29:06,760
Speaker 8: to get your sixty bucks. Now multiply that by a

2914
02:29:06,800 --> 02:29:09,840
Speaker 8: family of five. You can start to see where it

2915
02:29:09,879 --> 02:29:12,080
Speaker 8: becomes inaccessible to people.

2916
02:29:12,400 --> 02:29:15,720
Speaker 4: And that's that's a lot of money. Like if you're

2917
02:29:15,720 --> 02:29:19,760
Speaker 4: in this position, like that's yeah.

2918
02:29:19,320 --> 02:29:22,240
Speaker 8: It costs so much more to travel on buses and

2919
02:29:22,400 --> 02:29:25,160
Speaker 8: by foot across the Americans and it would to fly, Yeah,

2920
02:29:25,160 --> 02:29:27,800
Speaker 8: like all of them would love to fly, but they

2921
02:29:27,840 --> 02:29:31,560
Speaker 8: can't because we have this system that makes everyone money

2922
02:29:31,879 --> 02:29:33,080
Speaker 8: apart from the migrants.

2923
02:29:33,360 --> 02:29:35,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, And it's like it didn't fucking it didn't fucking

2924
02:29:36,040 --> 02:29:38,360
Speaker 4: used to be like this, Like when my family came

2925
02:29:38,400 --> 02:29:39,840
Speaker 4: to the US, like we didn't have to like you know,

2926
02:29:39,879 --> 02:29:41,879
Speaker 4: we had a bunch of fucking harrowing shit to like

2927
02:29:42,879 --> 02:29:45,080
Speaker 4: flee the Japanese and like get to Taiwan. But it

2928
02:29:45,160 --> 02:29:47,440
Speaker 4: was like like when my parents, like like their parents

2929
02:29:47,480 --> 02:29:49,959
Speaker 4: like came to the US, they just they fucking flew in.

2930
02:29:50,720 --> 02:29:52,680
Speaker 4: None of this fucking has to be the way any

2931
02:29:52,680 --> 02:29:54,320
Speaker 4: of this shit works. It didn't used to be the

2932
02:29:54,320 --> 02:29:56,320
Speaker 4: way any of this shit works. And it's like like

2933
02:29:56,360 --> 02:29:58,600
Speaker 4: these are people from countries and you know it's like, yeah, obviously,

2934
02:29:58,600 --> 02:30:01,480
Speaker 4: like my parents were like leading from Taiwan to the US, right,

2935
02:30:01,520 --> 02:30:03,280
Speaker 4: which makes it easier. But these are also these are

2936
02:30:03,320 --> 02:30:06,040
Speaker 4: people from places that the US fucking hates. Yeah, and

2937
02:30:06,080 --> 02:30:09,200
Speaker 4: so like you would expect them to get like at

2938
02:30:09,320 --> 02:30:12,560
Speaker 4: least somewhat similar treatment to people who came from like Taiwan,

2939
02:30:12,640 --> 02:30:15,320
Speaker 4: which is at the time, you know, like US ally

2940
02:30:15,400 --> 02:30:17,440
Speaker 4: anti China stuff. But like, no, we've just decided to

2941
02:30:17,480 --> 02:30:19,240
Speaker 4: just feed these people into a fucking meek rinder.

2942
02:30:19,520 --> 02:30:23,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it gets me to my next fucking trauma.

2943
02:30:24,120 --> 02:30:48,360
Speaker 10: Dum let's sick an et break before the Yeah, yeah.

2944
02:30:38,160 --> 02:30:39,720
Speaker 3: They're back, Okay.

2945
02:30:40,200 --> 02:30:42,760
Speaker 8: So yeah, as me I mentioned, right, these are places

2946
02:30:42,760 --> 02:30:46,000
Speaker 8: that the US considers to be dictatorial or impressive regimes

2947
02:30:46,040 --> 02:30:48,800
Speaker 8: right around Venezuela, Cuba three to come to mind of

2948
02:30:48,840 --> 02:30:51,640
Speaker 8: people that I met, right, and so a lot of

2949
02:30:51,640 --> 02:30:53,680
Speaker 8: these people have what's called a temporary protected states in

2950
02:30:53,720 --> 02:30:56,439
Speaker 8: the US. It doesn't mean that they necessarily can't be deported.

2951
02:30:56,480 --> 02:30:59,880
Speaker 8: Sometimes they can, but sometimes it makes it a bit harder, right,

2952
02:31:00,080 --> 02:31:04,160
Speaker 8: deport to those countries. Panama, it's not governed by United

2953
02:31:04,200 --> 02:31:08,520
Speaker 8: States immigration law. Yeah, we gave On the day that

2954
02:31:08,600 --> 02:31:13,200
Speaker 8: Molino took office. Alejandro Majorcas himself the child of migrants

2955
02:31:13,320 --> 02:31:17,279
Speaker 8: from Cuba, I believe, went to Panama attended the inauguration

2956
02:31:18,000 --> 02:31:20,480
Speaker 8: and then announced this six million dollar aid package right

2957
02:31:20,520 --> 02:31:24,200
Speaker 8: which the US was going to give to fun deportations

2958
02:31:24,240 --> 02:31:27,560
Speaker 8: from Panama directly. And I got to see those deportations

2959
02:31:27,560 --> 02:31:29,840
Speaker 8: happening right like you'll hear them in my scripted series.

2960
02:31:30,360 --> 02:31:36,480
Speaker 8: But like watching somebody take a dad away from his baby,

2961
02:31:37,400 --> 02:31:43,360
Speaker 8: or a mother away from her children, or one man's

2962
02:31:43,560 --> 02:31:48,000
Speaker 8: brother away from his brother, Like it's just heartbreaking. These

2963
02:31:48,040 --> 02:31:51,800
Speaker 8: people have crossed the Daddy in right. They've undertaken a

2964
02:31:51,879 --> 02:31:53,800
Speaker 8: journey like I've done a lot of mountaineering. I've done

2965
02:31:53,800 --> 02:31:55,840
Speaker 8: a lot of climbing. I like to fuck around outside,

2966
02:31:55,920 --> 02:31:57,560
Speaker 8: but like I've never done anything where I didn't know

2967
02:31:57,600 --> 02:31:59,920
Speaker 8: if I was going to come back, really, and like

2968
02:32:00,200 --> 02:32:03,680
Speaker 8: they've done that. They've taken this incredibly difficult journey. And

2969
02:32:03,720 --> 02:32:07,960
Speaker 8: then when they get to the other side, you, you,

2970
02:32:08,120 --> 02:32:10,160
Speaker 8: and you, they get picked out and they get deported

2971
02:32:10,200 --> 02:32:12,440
Speaker 8: back right on flights that are paid for by your

2972
02:32:12,440 --> 02:32:16,800
Speaker 8: tax dollars and my tax dollars. And this includes flights

2973
02:32:16,800 --> 02:32:20,280
Speaker 8: to Cuba. This includes flights to Venezuela, right places that

2974
02:32:20,360 --> 02:32:24,280
Speaker 8: the US considers to be like dictatorial regimes. And now

2975
02:32:24,280 --> 02:32:27,160
Speaker 8: these people are back in Cuba they're back in Venezuela,

2976
02:32:27,240 --> 02:32:29,480
Speaker 8: but their government knows that they tried to leave, and

2977
02:32:29,480 --> 02:32:32,840
Speaker 8: they've spent all their fucking savings, so they're back in

2978
02:32:33,160 --> 02:32:35,560
Speaker 8: square one. I spoke to a few Colombians. They've also

2979
02:32:35,600 --> 02:32:38,680
Speaker 8: deported a lot of Colombian people. Most of the Colombian

2980
02:32:38,680 --> 02:32:41,440
Speaker 8: people I spoke to in Las Blancats were deported. They

2981
02:32:41,480 --> 02:32:45,480
Speaker 8: called all the Colombian nationals to choose the office and

2982
02:32:45,520 --> 02:32:48,960
Speaker 8: then these I was told that they were only deporting

2983
02:32:48,959 --> 02:32:52,879
Speaker 8: people who had like warrants, like pending cases. But when

2984
02:32:52,920 --> 02:32:55,959
Speaker 8: these people got back to Colombia, they were just free

2985
02:32:56,000 --> 02:32:57,720
Speaker 8: to go, right, Like if you have a pending case

2986
02:32:57,720 --> 02:33:00,959
Speaker 8: and someone delivers you to the government. Non expert in

2987
02:33:01,000 --> 02:33:03,320
Speaker 8: Colombian law enforcement, but it seems like that would be

2988
02:33:03,320 --> 02:33:06,160
Speaker 8: a good time to prosecute that casey, and these people

2989
02:33:06,320 --> 02:33:08,600
Speaker 8: tell me that they've been let go. None of them

2990
02:33:09,080 --> 02:33:11,760
Speaker 8: told me if they had warrants. Now, like, I'm just

2991
02:33:11,800 --> 02:33:14,720
Speaker 8: going off what they said. But that night they were

2992
02:33:14,720 --> 02:33:17,080
Speaker 8: texting me pictures themselves in handcuffs. By the next day

2993
02:33:17,120 --> 02:33:20,560
Speaker 8: they were back in medine telling me that they'd been

2994
02:33:20,560 --> 02:33:23,240
Speaker 8: sent home, including like I was talking to a lady

2995
02:33:23,280 --> 02:33:26,920
Speaker 8: just before we recorded who she doesn't know where her

2996
02:33:27,040 --> 02:33:30,640
Speaker 8: children's father her husband is right, And lots of people

2997
02:33:30,720 --> 02:33:33,920
Speaker 8: will have like I guess what's the English translation, like

2998
02:33:33,959 --> 02:33:38,840
Speaker 8: free unions, Like when they're like married for legal reasons,

2999
02:33:38,959 --> 02:33:41,360
Speaker 8: they don't go and have a wedding, but they're considered

3000
02:33:41,400 --> 02:33:44,200
Speaker 8: to be married common law marriage, I guess would be

3001
02:33:44,200 --> 02:33:46,440
Speaker 8: the phrase, right, like they've lived together for a number

3002
02:33:46,440 --> 02:33:49,040
Speaker 8: of years, share a house, etc. Often have children, but

3003
02:33:49,080 --> 02:33:51,480
Speaker 8: they're not like they never had a wedding. So I

3004
02:33:51,480 --> 02:33:55,560
Speaker 8: don't know if that document makes difference, but I watched

3005
02:33:55,680 --> 02:33:58,640
Speaker 8: people have their children taken out their arms and be

3006
02:33:58,680 --> 02:34:01,040
Speaker 8: shoved into back of trucks and be deported, and like

3007
02:34:02,120 --> 02:34:08,120
Speaker 8: that fucking sucks. That is not something that I want

3008
02:34:08,160 --> 02:34:12,199
Speaker 8: to see again. And it happens every single day there,

3009
02:34:13,040 --> 02:34:15,640
Speaker 8: and it happens because your taxes are paying for It

3010
02:34:15,640 --> 02:34:19,360
Speaker 8: didn't used to happen and now it does, and it's

3011
02:34:19,520 --> 02:34:23,320
Speaker 8: just heartbreaking. Like I don't really like it's there's nothing

3012
02:34:23,440 --> 02:34:26,640
Speaker 8: you can do. You know that there's no you know,

3013
02:34:26,680 --> 02:34:29,640
Speaker 8: I can't do anything to stop it. You can't do

3014
02:34:29,680 --> 02:34:31,840
Speaker 8: anything to stop it, right, Like what you can vote

3015
02:34:31,840 --> 02:34:34,440
Speaker 8: for Donald Trump, who would like to machine down every

3016
02:34:35,040 --> 02:34:37,120
Speaker 8: asylum secret at the border if you got a chance,

3017
02:34:37,200 --> 02:34:41,280
Speaker 8: or you can vote to Kamala Harris, who has presided

3018
02:34:41,320 --> 02:34:45,080
Speaker 8: over record migrant deaths every year of her administration, who's

3019
02:34:45,080 --> 02:34:48,560
Speaker 8: sending your money to deport people in Panama, who knows

3020
02:34:48,640 --> 02:34:51,920
Speaker 8: that the choices that she's made are resulting in like

3021
02:34:52,400 --> 02:34:56,720
Speaker 8: death in Panama, death here right, Like there were four

3022
02:34:56,760 --> 02:34:59,480
Speaker 8: people who died and then the heat wave in the

3023
02:34:59,520 --> 02:35:02,000
Speaker 8: first week September, four people who died in o Time

3024
02:35:02,080 --> 02:35:04,480
Speaker 8: mount and wilderness, like in a tiny area ten miles

3025
02:35:04,480 --> 02:35:08,160
Speaker 8: across of border in San Diego, and my friends had

3026
02:35:08,160 --> 02:35:10,360
Speaker 8: to go in search their bodies, and my friends found

3027
02:35:10,400 --> 02:35:13,400
Speaker 8: their remains, and I had to confront the fact that,

3028
02:35:13,600 --> 02:35:18,080
Speaker 8: like this is the toll of the rhetoric, Like this

3029
02:35:18,120 --> 02:35:20,760
Speaker 8: is what the rhetoric costs. The other thing I want

3030
02:35:20,760 --> 02:35:22,760
Speaker 8: to mention is that like, even in the most desperate

3031
02:35:22,800 --> 02:35:26,879
Speaker 8: moments of their lives, everyone looked out for one another

3032
02:35:27,360 --> 02:35:30,160
Speaker 8: in a way that like we don't hear. Like one

3033
02:35:30,240 --> 02:35:33,160
Speaker 8: of the things that really struck me was that, like

3034
02:35:33,520 --> 02:35:36,000
Speaker 8: everyone's kids are just kind of out and about, right.

3035
02:35:36,040 --> 02:35:39,959
Speaker 8: No one's particularly afraid of anyone hurting their kids, Like

3036
02:35:40,320 --> 02:35:42,280
Speaker 8: all of these kids, and I saw people who'd got

3037
02:35:42,320 --> 02:35:46,000
Speaker 8: split up in the gap, find each other again in Bahojikito,

3038
02:35:46,160 --> 02:35:49,560
Speaker 8: and like, you know, there were strangers who had carried

3039
02:35:49,600 --> 02:35:52,640
Speaker 8: someone's children for two days because that other person was

3040
02:35:52,680 --> 02:35:54,880
Speaker 8: so tired or they had another child they needed to carry,

3041
02:35:55,000 --> 02:35:59,560
Speaker 8: and like, yeah, I'm strangely comfortable, I guess in refugee camps,

3042
02:35:59,600 --> 02:36:01,800
Speaker 8: Like I went to Panama City after its like I

3043
02:36:01,800 --> 02:36:03,560
Speaker 8: couldn't have it. It was too much for me and

3044
02:36:03,600 --> 02:36:05,800
Speaker 8: I had to stay in my hotel room, and I

3045
02:36:05,800 --> 02:36:10,560
Speaker 8: guess it was just difficult, but like I feel safe

3046
02:36:10,680 --> 02:36:14,200
Speaker 8: in those places. I feel comfortable and like in a

3047
02:36:14,280 --> 02:36:17,200
Speaker 8: sense it's well, you see the best of us and

3048
02:36:17,240 --> 02:36:21,039
Speaker 8: the worst of us. I guess, like I can't imagine

3049
02:36:21,040 --> 02:36:22,720
Speaker 8: being in a place where I know I could lose

3050
02:36:22,720 --> 02:36:26,920
Speaker 8: my life if I slip and fall, and then thinking well,

3051
02:36:26,959 --> 02:36:29,320
Speaker 8: I've got to carry this little kid. Never met this

3052
02:36:29,400 --> 02:36:31,680
Speaker 8: kid before. I don't share a language. You know, there

3053
02:36:31,760 --> 02:36:36,200
Speaker 8: was a group from Angola and they'd been carrying Venezuelan children,

3054
02:36:36,360 --> 02:36:38,840
Speaker 8: right they can't even talk to one another, but they

3055
02:36:39,040 --> 02:36:44,080
Speaker 8: potentially risk their lives to help. Yeah, it's it's pretty

3056
02:36:44,080 --> 02:36:47,199
Speaker 8: fucking bleak. I'm staying in touch with everyone I met,

3057
02:36:47,360 --> 02:36:50,480
Speaker 8: and they're telling me about their journeys to the border. Unfortunately,

3058
02:36:50,520 --> 02:36:52,400
Speaker 8: the thing that comes next is eight to nine month

3059
02:36:52,480 --> 02:36:55,840
Speaker 8: delay as they apply for a CVP one appointment. And like,

3060
02:36:56,160 --> 02:37:00,959
Speaker 8: I wish I could offer something hopeful. Guess what I'll

3061
02:37:00,959 --> 02:37:03,640
Speaker 8: say is what I always say that, Like, there isn't

3062
02:37:03,640 --> 02:37:05,920
Speaker 8: anyone you can vote for who will fix this, Like

3063
02:37:07,120 --> 02:37:10,120
Speaker 8: you can vote for Cornel West with Jill Stein, Like

3064
02:37:10,120 --> 02:37:12,800
Speaker 8: I'm not going to vote for someone who fucking supports

3065
02:37:12,800 --> 02:37:16,600
Speaker 8: the policies that are creating refugees in Syria, right whatever,

3066
02:37:16,879 --> 02:37:20,760
Speaker 8: I'm not suggesting that that's a solution either. Like the

3067
02:37:20,840 --> 02:37:23,400
Speaker 8: things that you need to do are like there is

3068
02:37:23,440 --> 02:37:26,360
Speaker 8: a person helping moments in your community. I spoke to

3069
02:37:26,400 --> 02:37:29,600
Speaker 8: a Jesuit shelter. I'll put them in my scripted episode.

3070
02:37:29,640 --> 02:37:32,760
Speaker 8: Like I'm not a big religious shelter guy, but these

3071
02:37:32,760 --> 02:37:36,320
Speaker 8: guys were fucking great. These guys are saving people's lives

3072
02:37:36,360 --> 02:37:39,200
Speaker 8: and making sure that people have the basic necessity like

3073
02:37:39,720 --> 02:37:41,720
Speaker 8: literally turning up at the refuge camp and making sure

3074
02:37:41,720 --> 02:37:46,000
Speaker 8: everyone had toilet roll and toothbrushes and things that yeah,

3075
02:37:46,120 --> 02:37:47,720
Speaker 8: you don't need for one night, but you're going to

3076
02:37:47,720 --> 02:37:49,800
Speaker 8: be there for a month, you don't have, you know,

3077
02:37:50,120 --> 02:37:51,560
Speaker 8: what are you going to do spend five bucks on

3078
02:37:51,640 --> 02:37:54,400
Speaker 8: toothbrush and toothpaste, but that's five less bucks you have

3079
02:37:54,440 --> 02:37:58,000
Speaker 8: for your bus fare, right, So like I'll put them

3080
02:37:58,040 --> 02:38:01,080
Speaker 8: out there. I would love to do a fundraiser, like

3081
02:38:01,120 --> 02:38:03,720
Speaker 8: if anyone can work out how to facilitate transfers to

3082
02:38:04,200 --> 02:38:06,960
Speaker 8: migrants who are in the camp for free, that would

3083
02:38:07,000 --> 02:38:10,400
Speaker 8: be great, Like that would be a service that would

3084
02:38:10,560 --> 02:38:13,800
Speaker 8: make things considerably easier for people. But the way that

3085
02:38:13,840 --> 02:38:16,720
Speaker 8: you fix this is showing up, Like it's showing up

3086
02:38:16,760 --> 02:38:18,800
Speaker 8: at the border if you live near the border, it's

3087
02:38:18,840 --> 02:38:23,600
Speaker 8: showing up in your community. It's countering this like with

3088
02:38:23,920 --> 02:38:27,480
Speaker 8: people in your family and your circle, like there's a

3089
02:38:27,520 --> 02:38:31,520
Speaker 8: tacit agreement. I think in the entire corporate media that

3090
02:38:31,600 --> 02:38:34,840
Speaker 8: migrants are humans without rights, Like they're just numbers to

3091
02:38:34,920 --> 02:38:39,200
Speaker 8: these people, because I don't see them talking to migrants, right,

3092
02:38:39,400 --> 02:38:43,320
Speaker 8: Like these are people who you know, like I help

3093
02:38:43,360 --> 02:38:45,680
Speaker 8: them change their babies, I carried their bags for them,

3094
02:38:46,000 --> 02:38:47,720
Speaker 8: I played with their kids so they could go take

3095
02:38:47,760 --> 02:38:52,000
Speaker 8: a shower like that. They're people just like anyone else.

3096
02:38:52,080 --> 02:38:54,920
Speaker 8: Of course they are right that, Like, yeah, they're important

3097
02:38:54,920 --> 02:38:58,480
Speaker 8: to me, and it's fucking miserable to see my tax

3098
02:38:58,560 --> 02:39:01,080
Speaker 8: dollars use to make these people suffer.

3099
02:39:01,400 --> 02:39:04,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, these people should be more important than the fucking

3100
02:39:04,320 --> 02:39:07,080
Speaker 4: sons of boat dealers. Who's fucking got the land they

3101
02:39:07,160 --> 02:39:10,160
Speaker 4: live on because their ancestors fucking shot a bunch of people. Yeah,

3102
02:39:10,240 --> 02:39:12,880
Speaker 4: like that's that's what's happening here, is that these people

3103
02:39:12,959 --> 02:39:14,959
Speaker 4: who are you know, some of the most courageous people

3104
02:39:14,959 --> 02:39:18,480
Speaker 4: in the entire world, are being sacrificed to appease a

3105
02:39:18,520 --> 02:39:21,680
Speaker 4: bunch of fucking shits. It's a level of evil that

3106
02:39:21,800 --> 02:39:28,280
Speaker 4: is just unfathomable. Yeah, I think, like we really shouldn't.

3107
02:39:28,520 --> 02:39:31,560
Speaker 4: I'm somewhat ranting now, but like, yeah, the pivot that

3108
02:39:31,640 --> 02:39:34,920
Speaker 4: even the Democrats have done in the last four years, right, Like,

3109
02:39:35,160 --> 02:39:37,600
Speaker 4: those people need to be held accountable for what is

3110
02:39:38,280 --> 02:39:40,360
Speaker 4: resulting in like babies dying.

3111
02:39:41,000 --> 02:39:42,720
Speaker 3: Like I saw dead kids.

3112
02:39:43,520 --> 02:39:47,480
Speaker 8: I saw that because Kamala Harris, Joe Biden, whichever other

3113
02:39:47,600 --> 02:39:51,800
Speaker 8: fucking Democrat senators and representatives keep voting for this shit,

3114
02:39:52,320 --> 02:39:54,760
Speaker 8: decided that it was okay for those babies to die

3115
02:39:54,840 --> 02:39:57,000
Speaker 8: because they didn't want Fox News to say mean stuff

3116
02:39:57,000 --> 02:40:00,600
Speaker 8: about them or NBC to say mean stuff about them. Right, Yeah,

3117
02:40:00,959 --> 02:40:03,360
Speaker 8: of course they're trying to move that stuff as far

3118
02:40:03,480 --> 02:40:06,160
Speaker 8: away from you as possible. Of course, they want the

3119
02:40:06,200 --> 02:40:08,680
Speaker 8: deportation to be done in Panama, not here, so you

3120
02:40:08,680 --> 02:40:11,240
Speaker 8: don't see it in your community. And of course they

3121
02:40:11,240 --> 02:40:13,240
Speaker 8: want people to die crossing the Darien and not at

3122
02:40:13,240 --> 02:40:16,800
Speaker 8: our border, because that's removed, and you don't hear it

3123
02:40:16,959 --> 02:40:20,200
Speaker 8: reported on right, Like it's not a Venezuelan woman died

3124
02:40:20,200 --> 02:40:23,720
Speaker 8: on Thursday. We're recording this on Tuesday, like Wednesday. You

3125
02:40:23,760 --> 02:40:26,600
Speaker 8: don't see that reported, right, You don't see that there

3126
02:40:26,640 --> 02:40:29,640
Speaker 8: are little kids' bodies in the jungle reported because it's

3127
02:40:29,680 --> 02:40:32,360
Speaker 8: out of sight and out of mind, And like, I

3128
02:40:32,360 --> 02:40:34,360
Speaker 8: guess the thing you can do is constantly bring it

3129
02:40:34,400 --> 02:40:37,720
Speaker 8: back into people's minds and make them accountable for their choices.

3130
02:40:37,920 --> 02:40:40,280
Speaker 8: And like, I guess this is the point where the

3131
02:40:40,320 --> 02:40:43,400
Speaker 8: electoralists get mad at me. I'm not voting for someone

3132
02:40:43,400 --> 02:40:45,879
Speaker 8: who chose that. Yeah, like, and I never could, Like

3133
02:40:45,920 --> 02:40:48,160
Speaker 8: I couldn't live with myself if I did. I know

3134
02:40:48,200 --> 02:40:51,640
Speaker 8: a system which reduces our political engagement taking a box

3135
02:40:51,680 --> 02:40:56,320
Speaker 8: every four years is asinine and child like, Like I

3136
02:40:56,320 --> 02:40:58,480
Speaker 8: would much rather be out there every day helping people

3137
02:40:58,720 --> 02:41:01,360
Speaker 8: than voting once every four years, And like, you can

3138
02:41:01,400 --> 02:41:05,400
Speaker 8: do both, of course you can, but yeah, there's not

3139
02:41:05,560 --> 02:41:08,039
Speaker 8: a voting solution for this, Like, it requires all of

3140
02:41:08,120 --> 02:41:10,000
Speaker 8: us to do a lot of work because we're so

3141
02:41:10,240 --> 02:41:15,320
Speaker 8: far down the path which ends in a really terrible place. Right,

3142
02:41:15,320 --> 02:41:17,760
Speaker 8: it's already a terrible place that these people's lives don't matter,

3143
02:41:18,440 --> 02:41:21,520
Speaker 8: and that their children's lives don't matter, and that we

3144
02:41:21,560 --> 02:41:24,760
Speaker 8: shouldn't care if they're dying in the jungle. And we've

3145
02:41:24,800 --> 02:41:26,200
Speaker 8: got a lot of work to do to get back

3146
02:41:26,240 --> 02:41:28,280
Speaker 8: from that, because apparently it's okay with a lot of

3147
02:41:28,280 --> 02:41:29,160
Speaker 8: people in this country.

3148
02:41:29,400 --> 02:41:31,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think part of the reason why it's gotten

3149
02:41:31,959 --> 02:41:34,600
Speaker 4: this bad is that the social ruvements that had pushed

3150
02:41:34,600 --> 02:41:37,840
Speaker 4: the Democrats in a slightly better direction in the late

3151
02:41:37,879 --> 02:41:43,320
Speaker 4: twenty tens stopped social movement thing. So you know, the

3152
02:41:43,320 --> 02:41:46,600
Speaker 4: only thing that these people will respond to is like

3153
02:41:46,800 --> 02:41:49,920
Speaker 4: they're actually being mass mobilizations and them be feeling politically

3154
02:41:49,920 --> 02:41:53,040
Speaker 4: threatened by it. So you know, we've done it before,

3155
02:41:53,160 --> 02:41:53,960
Speaker 4: we can do it again.

3156
02:41:54,879 --> 02:41:55,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3157
02:41:55,120 --> 02:41:56,960
Speaker 8: The biggest march in this country's history was the March

3158
02:41:57,000 --> 02:41:59,680
Speaker 8: of migrants, Right, we can do that again. So many

3159
02:41:59,680 --> 02:42:02,640
Speaker 8: of us, myself included, came here to have a chance

3160
02:42:02,680 --> 02:42:05,959
Speaker 8: at better future. And like, even if you didn't share

3161
02:42:06,000 --> 02:42:10,560
Speaker 8: some solidarity with people like showing up in massive numbers.

3162
02:42:11,280 --> 02:42:14,200
Speaker 8: Yet these movement stop social movementing and people fell out

3163
02:42:14,240 --> 02:42:16,200
Speaker 8: of a little things. But like, this shit is important,

3164
02:42:16,600 --> 02:42:19,800
Speaker 8: and I think we can build some bridges and we

3165
02:42:19,879 --> 02:42:23,080
Speaker 8: need to do something to stop this because it's horrific. Yeah,

3166
02:42:23,120 --> 02:42:25,480
Speaker 8: and so it's a genocide in Ghaza, like we can

3167
02:42:25,879 --> 02:42:28,080
Speaker 8: we need to do something to stop that too, but

3168
02:42:28,879 --> 02:42:30,119
Speaker 8: we're not going to do it through voting.

3169
02:42:32,920 --> 02:42:36,120
Speaker 2: Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3170
02:42:36,160 --> 02:42:38,080
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the Universe.

3171
02:42:38,600 --> 02:42:41,119
Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3172
02:42:41,280 --> 02:42:44,359
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3173
02:42:44,440 --> 02:42:47,000
Speaker 1: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

3174
02:42:47,000 --> 02:42:50,960
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3175
02:42:51,400 --> 02:42:53,320
Speaker 1: You can now find sources for It Could Happen Here.

3176
02:42:53,360 --> 02:42:56,359
Speaker 1: Listened directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.