WEBVTT - Why Community and Courage Matter More Than Ever with Laura McKowen 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.840 Everything we do is in negotiation with the world. It's 0:00:02.840 --> 0:00:04.720 a call and response and a conversation. 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:16.560 Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:19.960 have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:23.239 like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:26.840 think ring true, and yet for many of us, our 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:30.960 thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:35.200 self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:37.879 have instead of what we do. We think things that 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:41.080 hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not 0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:45.640 just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:48.960 and creative effort to make a life worth living. This 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:51.960 podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:57.600 the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:02.880 Transformation. Rarely with a clean line or a tidy plan. 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:07.240 It comes instead in the messy middle, the space between 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:11.039 who we've been and who we're becoming. Laura Mcowan calls 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:16.680 this the threshold where everything feels uncertain, uncomfortable, and even 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:20.520 sometimes unbearable. In this conversation, we talk about what it 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:23.880 means to stand in that in between place, why change 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:27.040 isn't the end of pain, but the beginning of healing, 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:29.520 and how we can start to build a life that 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:33.200 can actually hold us because the truth is giving up 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:36.759 the thing that numbed us, whether it was alcohol, control, work, 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:41.280 or anything else, isn't enough. We have to become someone new. 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:45.720 I'm Eric Zimmer, and this is the one you feed. Hi, Laura, 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:46.679 welcome back. 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:48.680 Hi, thank you for having me again. 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:51.160 Yes, I am so excited to talk to you again. 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:54.800 I loved our first conversation and I'm excited for this one. 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:57.600 But we will start like we always do, with the parable, 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:00.320 and I'll give you another chance to answer it because 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:02.480 your first answer was unsatisfactory. 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:05.840 Oh probably, I have no idea what. I have no 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:06.800 idea what you said. 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:09.960 I was trying to remember, and I have no doubt. 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:12.720 Yeah, I would imagine few of our listeners would remember, 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:15.360 although I know a bunch of them loved it. And 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:18.200 I often recommend your book to people early in sobriety, 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:21.079 particularly people who love good writing. I think it's such 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:23.640 a great book about sobriety, but you're also such a 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:27.000 good writer, and people who appreciate literature appreciate your book. 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:29.800 So yeah, in the parable, there is a grandparent talking 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:31.960 with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:34.440 two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:37.040 One it is a good wolf, which represents things like 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:40.320 kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:43.360 which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:46.000 the grandchild stops, thinks about it for a second and 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:47.760 looks up at their grandparents says, well. 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:48.440 Which one wins? 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:51.440 And the grandparent says that the one you feed. So 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:53.520 I'd like to start off by asking you what that 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:56.680 parable means to you in your life and in the work. 0:02:56.520 --> 0:02:56.959 That you do. 0:02:57.320 --> 0:02:57.560 Yes. 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:01.280 So, I couldn't remember how I answered it the first time. 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:03.080 I almost went to look it up, and then I thought, 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:07.480 don't bother, but what it means to me right now 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:13.120 in my life and my work. The battle exists in 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:16.760 having the courage to say the truth, speak the truth 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:21.600 even when it is going to disappoint and possibly piss 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:26.520 off and possibly make people really hate me, and knowing 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:27.440 that that's not personal. 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:28.440 I guess another way. 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:31.640 Of saying it is the bad wolf is playing it safe, 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:33.800 or thinking that there is such a thing as safety 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:38.040 when you have a public voice and desiring that and 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:44.560 the good wolf is wanting to be free and doing 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:47.320 whatever that means in the moment, especially when it comes 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:48.080 to telling the truth. 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:49.080 I had no problem. 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:51.120 Well it's not that I had no problem, but I've 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:53.280 been talking about hard things for a while, and I 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:56.600 had no problem really doing that in talking about sobriety 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:57.960 because it was saving my life. 0:03:58.400 --> 0:03:59.080 But I feel like. 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:02.280 I've reached this point where now there are other things 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:05.840 that I really want to talk about, but I've got 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:09.040 a bigger platform, there's more people listening, there's more people watching, 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:12.720 and I get afraid that's a good wolf bad wolf 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:14.280 thing in my life right now. 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:14.640 Yeah. 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:18.240 I think it's a really interesting point because I think 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:20.359 there's two things that start to happen, at least this 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:21.320 has been my experience. 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:21.560 Thing. 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:23.800 One is just a genuine fear like I don't want 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:27.000 people to not like me, et cetera. The other is 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:31.120 I don't want to drive people away from what I 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:35.320 feel is like really important content or messaging, Like for 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:38.479 you, you're talking about people about getting sober, it's life and death, 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:40.839 and feeling like I don't want to drive people away 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:45.359 from that by sort of moving quote unquote off topic 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:48.040 in a way that starts to drive certain people away. 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:50.760 And so for me it's been this balance, particularly as 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:54.360 I've begun not begun to as I've thought more about 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:58.400 how do I bring issues that are beyond personal development 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:01.800 that I care about too. There are things I want 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:04.880 to talk about, there's things I want to advocate for. 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:06.800 There's all that, and so how do I do that 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:09.479 in a way that is helpful and useful. But I 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:11.800 also don't want to drive people away who can be 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:14.280 getting something valuable out of what I'm doing. I mean, 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:17.240 obviously there's the like not wanting to drive away people 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:18.840 because you don't want your numbers to go down, But 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:21.360 then there's a genuine there's a genuineness. 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:23.400 So I find both those I find both. 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:26.800 You know, I'm battling a variety of factors when I 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:28.119 start thinking about those things. 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:30.400 Yeah, all of those things are true for me too. 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:34.440 I think twenty twenty and twenty twenty one, we're traumatizing, 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:38.080 you know. I mean, that's an understatement for everybody. And 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:41.000 one of the things that I experienced was being a 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:44.120 person with a public place. It can be really nasty 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:47.800 in the online spaces and less so in the real world, 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:49.640 but a lot of what I do is trying to 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:53.880 present to still and present information in an online space, 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:57.320 and I'm choosing to do that. So it's like, I 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:00.159 don't want to be light and fluffy and easy and 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:04.960 always be safe, right. I actually don't want that at all. 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:07.680 But I find myself challenged to, as you said, bring 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:11.120 in other topics and not get sucked into the. 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:12.360 Dark side of it. 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:14.120 Yeah, it's tough. 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:15.960 To put out what I put out with integrity and 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:17.799 then let whatever's going to happen happen. 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:18.320 Yep. 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:20.279 And I think I've always sort of been like, well, 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:23.120 we're not a political show, right, Like that's not what 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:26.400 we do, right, And then you hit these points at 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:29.279 least I did where I went, is this a political issue? 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:32.880 This feels like it's an issue about basic values, But 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:36.680 even conversations about basic values seem to be political these days, 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:38.039 and it's challenging. 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:41.200 You know, Yeah, everything's political now. So I mean, this 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:44.080 is a whole rabbit hole. But everything is political now, 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:48.200 you know, up to a vaccine being entirely political. 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:49.479 Yep. 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:52.360 So that's just the world we're operating. And so I'm 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:56.880 learning how to have courage in that space. And it's 0:06:56.880 --> 0:07:00.400 honestly for me, it's really humiliating and like that brings 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:03.360 up a lot of my old junk around people pleasing 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:07.160 and that made me really sick, you know. It was 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:09.960 dishonesty at the end of the day, and really feeling 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:12.040 like I lacked a center that was not a good 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:12.600 place for me. 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:13.160 Yeah. 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:16.160 There's a line that you said in a blog post 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:18.280 not too long ago. You said, there are some things 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.480 that still undo me. The worst feeling like someone I 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:27.000 care about is mad at me, and I completely resonate 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:30.080 with that. I think that is my biggest achilles heel 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:33.800 is that very thing is like, when someone is mad 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:36.920 at me that I care about, it's really difficult. 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:37.840 Really difficult. 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:42.560 Yeah, And it's a small circle of people that can 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:45.400 undo me like that. It's the people that like m 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:48.600 that I actually care about. But it's so easy for 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:49.600 me to snap into. 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:50.320 Just my. 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:55.920 Therapist said, one of my defense mechanisms is called categorically wrong. 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:01.000 I just go, you're right, I'm wrong, everything I'm everything 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:01.640 I do is wrong. 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:03.760 Yeah, everything I'm wrong. 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:09.520 And it's like this really dark shame spiral not helpful. 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:13.760 In that blog post, we hear about flight and freeze, 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:16.720 and you mentioned that there's you know, something called fawning. 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:18.520 Say more about that. 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:21.240 Oh yeah, that was a big learning for me. 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:24.360 That we know of the fear responses typically as the 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:29.040 fight freeze of three f's, but that there's actually a fourth. 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.800 I can't remember the psychologist that coined it, but it's 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:39.040 called fawning, and it's in response to fear. We fawn 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:43.440 over someone. We go towards them instead of running or freezing. 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:47.400 We go towards them. We kiss their ass, we try 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:52.640 to appease them. We abandon ourselves entirely and our needs entirely. 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:54.200 And that's me. 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:58.960 That was my primary coping mechanism is fawning, not always, 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:01.200 but with a certain type of person, you know, And 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:04.079 of course it mimics childhood stuff and everything like that. 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:07.240 That was really helpful to me because it named something 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:10.040 that I've experienced so. 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:12.079 Acutely, and you know, when you're doing it, it doesn't 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:12.560 make sense. 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:16.560 It feels terrible, but it's all an appeal for safety, 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:18.439 for keeping the attachment. 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:20.600 It's like keep your enemies closer type of thing. 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:24.079 If I just get closer to them, whatever I need 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:27.800 to do to make myself okay in their eyes, and 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:28.800 I'll be Okay. 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:34.040 Yeah, it feels terrible, and so does staying sort of 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:37.520 centered in myself and what I think and what I believe, 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:39.160 which I think is the way when we try and 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:43.320 change a lot of old patterns, sobriety being a great example. 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:46.920 It's like early on in that change process, it's really difficult, 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:49.880 like which of these feels worse? They both feel pretty bad. 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:51.880 Yeah, no kidding. 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:54.480 It's a true dilemma and the Greek tragedy sense of 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:57.280 the word. You're not thinking between one nice, peaceful road 0:09:57.360 --> 0:09:59.440 and one, you know, terrible road. 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:00.920 It's both both feel terrible. 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:03.679 It's just which is gonna you know, good wolf, bad 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:04.480 wolf type of thing. 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:06.319 It's like, yeah, it does feel terrible. 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:09.080 I mean for me, you know, I found it was 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:12.520 intolerable to sit with myself discomfort if someone was mad 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:15.679 at me. It was absolutely intolerable. So, you know, I 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:18.280 have to give myself some credit that I don't do 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:21.600 it so much anymore. But there of course still instances 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:23.880 here and there where you know, one is where my 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:27.560 partner and I got into a fight about three months ago, 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:31.360 and we've been together for almost a couple of years 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:34.520 at this point and have a really beautiful solid relationship 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:37.720 and when we got into this fight and it wasn't 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:40.440 like World War two, it wasn't even a big fight, 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:43.479 but this is where we go right in conflict. 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:45.920 For me, it felt like the relationship was on the line, 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:50.000 and it took everything in me not to just try 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:52.760 to fix it, just immediately fix it. 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:58.120 And the couple days where the storm was brewing between 0:10:58.200 --> 0:10:59.839 us and just had to like wait for it to. 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:03.760 Set we're really really difficult for me. 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:07.240 And when I told him, you know, after we finally 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:09.600 did talk, that it feels to me like the relationship 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:14.040 is threatened, he was shocked. It's like, what do you 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:16.600 really you know, we're just fighting like. 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:17.959 This is settled down, Laura. 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:20.959 Yeah, we're just fighting like this is this is fine, 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:23.800 But that's trauma's stuff kicking out. 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:26.680 That's right, it doesn't feel fine. I think that with 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:29.520 stuff like this, I think we often think that we'll 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:31.920 get to a point where we'll do enough healing and 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:34.240 enough inner work where we'll be able to do that 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:36.600 sort of thing like I'm going to say something's not 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:38.720 okay with me, and then I'm going to step back 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:41.200 and I'm not gonna fawn. I heard this from somebody 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:45.079 recently step into my power, and I was like, well, yes, 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:47.440 you are stepping into your power, but it's really important 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:50.600 that you recognize you're not going to feel powerful probably 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:54.160 in that moment, you're gonna feel terrified. If you wait 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:56.640 until you feel powerful to do it, there will be 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:59.400 no doing it, you know. And so I think what 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:01.760 you're saying is so important is like, yeah, I was 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:04.440 able to do it, but boy, it didn't feel very good. 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:08.360 Oh felt terrible, not sleeping, not eating, you know, the full, 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:11.160 the full catastrophe. 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:12.160 But you do it. 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:16.199 And that's what it means to be in love with someone, 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:19.480 whether it's a partner or sibling or a friend, if 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:22.360 you feel comfortable one hundred percent of the time and 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:25.800 you're never afraid, and you're never hurt, and you're never 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:30.400 feeling the weight of loving them. My friend Jim Zartman, 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:33.240 who's a coach and a pastor, says, you know, like 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:34.199 get being married. 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:35.960 This is quite gruesome. 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:38.320 But it's like each of you has a revolver that 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:41.280 you put your partner's finger on the trigger and you 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:43.439 just trust that they don't point it at your head 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:44.760 and you trust that they're not going to pull it 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:47.640 you know, so that's just the way it is. If 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:51.680 you're really open, you're gonna risk being shot. 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:53.120 You know. 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:56.440 I think that's an interesting idea. I've seen more and 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:59.080 more of this. I feel like when I first got sober, 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:01.960 which was like nineteen ninety four, but I think even 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:04.600 probably around when when you got sober and when I 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:07.000 got sober again the second time, you know, there was 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:09.960 a lot of talk about codependency, and I think some 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:12.599 of this I got from Buddhism, which can be interpreted 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:15.160 this way if you're not careful. The sense was that 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:22.080 the psychologically healthy person was this independent whatever you do 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:27.400 doesn't affect me. I'm so secure that I don't get 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:31.920 ruffled by anything. And what I've seen really change over 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:34.760 the last really probably last four or five years, is 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:38.040 more of an understanding that kind of like you're saying 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:43.000 that healthy love means that we are vulnerable to someone 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:45.559 and we can be hurt. So I think it's sorting 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:52.640 that out, like what's trauma informed response, what's unhealthy response, 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:56.840 and what's normal human Like my partner's upset with me, 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:58.319 so of course it feels bad. 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:03.679 God, Yeah, yes, absolutely, I'm so glad you brought that up. 0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:08.760 Codependency is real. You know, there is very dysfunctional codependency. 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:10.959 But I think the truth is always somewhere in the middle, 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:14.920 as we know, and healthy places in the middle and balance. 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:18.320 It's murky. I've said to him many times, you could 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:19.080 really hurt me. 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:19.480 You know. 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:22.640 At the beginning of our relationship, it was like, wow, 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:24.240 you know, you could really hurt me. And I hadn't 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:27.040 really been in a partnership like quite like that before. 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:33.080 It's wonderful because you're all in, and it's terrifying because 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:36.000 you're all in and we do depend on each other. 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:38.120 It is marky. I definitely don't have the answer to that. 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:40.080 It's like, you know what when you feel it kind 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:43.200 of but to give a point by point description of 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:46.720 the difference is really difficult. I think even healthy relationships 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:48.800 can have a small amount of codependency. You know, if 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:52.000 you're an attuned person. I mean, I'm very attuned to 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:55.680 other people's energy than my daughter too, and when they're. 0:14:55.600 --> 0:15:00.840 Upset, I feel upset. Is that does that make me unhealthy? 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:01.680 I don't think so. 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:05.040 It's I guess what I do in response to that, 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:08.240 if I need them to be okay for me to 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:13.160 be Okay, then we are drifting into unhealthy territory. 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:16.320 But I think otherwise it's just loving. 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:18.440 I think what you said is really important, Like how 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:23.280 do I respond to them in a way that doesn't 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:27.200 make it about me exactly, doesn't make them being upset, 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:30.480 them being down into suddenly about me. And there are 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:34.560 people I've had in my life before. Maybe I was 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:37.160 one of these people at some point where no matter 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:40.320 what it is, it immediately sort of flips into like 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:43.440 they feel bad. You know, I no longer even feel 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:44.680 comfortable feeling bad. 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:46.240 Yeah, now I have to rescue you. 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:47.320 Yeah, exactly. 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:49.960 Yeah, it's a responsibility thing, I think at the end 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:52.320 of the day, but it's overlapping circles. 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:53.640 You know, there's not. 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:56.800 You exist here and I exist here, and we never 0:15:56.880 --> 0:15:59.720 cross we do, but at the end of the day, 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:02.560 you feel responsible for your own experience. 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:07.400 Yep, you mentioned fight, flight, freeze, fawning. I heard another. 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:12.560 Term recently for it, which was flopping. 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:13.680 She made me laugh. 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:16.680 I was like, that kind of just yeah, that sort 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:17.480 of describes me. 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:19.480 L freeze. 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:21.000 Yeah, so none of those are flopping. 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:25.160 You just just kind of collapse in on yourself. 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:26.720 Yeah, go to sleep. 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:32.720 Yeah, I've I've flopped. The flopping and funning feel more 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:34.000 true to me than the other three. 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:36.520 Yeah, exactly, me, me too, me too. 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:39.280 Yeah, we were talking about this a little bit beforehand, 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:42.200 but maybe we could hit on this as a general topic. 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:46.080 You recently published something on one of your social channels 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:49.840 about some books that you've loved recently, and maybe before 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:52.040 we go into what any of them are, the books 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.160 you've talked about were fiction books. Talk to me about 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:59.200 what fiction specifically gives you that feels so important and valuable. 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:01.600 Okay, I love this topic, you know. 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:06.320 I would say I'm traditionally much more of a nonfiction 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:10.760 memoir lover, like that would be my first love. Maybe, 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:16.040 But ironically, several of the books that have been instructive 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:19.280 to me and helpful to me, I would say the 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:23.240 top three or four of them are not memoir or nonfiction. 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:29.080 There novels. And I'd have to say it's the mythology 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:34.479 of it all. What we get to experience in fiction 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:40.880 is some representation of a myth, So then it kind 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:43.800 of widens the aperture of what's possible because real life 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:45.760 is just real life. It can only get a strange 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:49.000 as real life gets or whatever but fiction, I mean, 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:54.399 you can include magical surrealism, you can include fantasy, you 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:57.840 can include you know, historical fiction. You can include things 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:00.480 that are true and not true, and any you know, 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:03.920 and so you can use those tools to create a myth. 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:06.040 And to me, the myths are what we're always after, 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:10.560 this timeless stories, the archetypal stories that live within us. 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:13.639 And so for example, one of the books that I 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:16.080 posted was the Book of Longings, which you and I 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:20.800 talked about, which is a fictional story about an alternate 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:24.080 story of Jesus. Obviously as seumank Kid wrote it, obviously 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:27.800 researched widely, and there was I mean, it was beautifully research. 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:30.199 You could tell she abided by what we know to 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:33.320 be true about the story of Jesus, but. 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:36.719 Also how to add like all kinds of things. 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:41.800 And there's something in that that made it feel more 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:45.119 real and more true because she allowed her imagination to 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:48.520 fill in the blanks. So yeah, I just also love 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:52.679 the writing, the literature of fiction. You can see that 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:55.360 sometimes in memoir, but in memoir, you know they're trying 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:58.600 to tell the true story. So the writing tends to 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:00.919 be different. I won't say always, but it tends to 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:02.919 be different. Even if you look at writers who do 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:06.399 both memoir and fiction writing, the fiction writing just has 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:09.800 a different feel. It's you know, there's more pros, it's 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:13.920 more lyrical often so it feels like you just can 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:15.480 get immersed. 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:16.120 In that world. 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:19.520 Before we dive back into the conversation, let me ask 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:23.000 you something. What's one thing that has been holding you 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:26.600 back lately? You know that it's there, You've tried to 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:30.040 push past it, but somehow it keeps getting in the way. 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:33.719 You're not alone in this, and I've identified six major 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:38.639 saboteurs of self control, things like autopilot behavior, self doubt, 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:44.440 emotional escapism that quietly derail our best intentions. But here's 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:47.480 the good news. You can outsmart them. And I put 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:50.600 together a free guide to help you spot these hidden 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:54.440 obstacles and give you simple, actionable strategies that you can 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:57.840 use to regain control. Download the free guide now at 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:01.639 oneufeed dot net slash e book and take the first 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:05.120 step towards getting back on track. One of the things 0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:07.320 about doing the show that is hardest for me is 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:10.640 I have so much reading to do for guests that 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:14.160 I don't get to read as much fiction as I 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:17.080 used to, but I still try and squeeze it in. 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:18.080 There's something about. 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:20.680 It that I deeply love that book of Longing's book, 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:23.640