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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And George Santos has asked a judge

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Speaker 1: to delay his sentencing so he can make more podcasts. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's a cursed sentence and that might be Peak twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five. We have such a great show for you today.

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Speaker 1: Evil Genius is author KURTA. Anderson gives us his historical

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Speaker 1: perspective on how bad Buchanan brought us to the Trump

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Speaker 1: of today. Then we'll talk to author John Gants as

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Speaker 1: he examines the path that led us to this current

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Speaker 1: political moment. But first the news.

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Speaker 2: Somali, I have to say my mental health has not

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Speaker 2: been doing well for watching fires raging throughout la very

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Speaker 2: close to where I used to live once upon a time.

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Speaker 2: It is not looking good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is really this. We're just watching and it

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Speaker 1: we're watching and thinking and praying for all the people

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Speaker 1: in California. My brother and my father and my other brother,

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Speaker 1: all of them live in California, and we're just thinking

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Speaker 1: about everybody. So there are three major fires. The Palasades

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Speaker 1: fire is the one closest to Los Angeles, or is

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Speaker 1: in Los Angeles. It's burned about eighteen square miles. And

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Speaker 1: then there's the Eton Fire, which is north of Pasadena,

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Speaker 1: which has burned about sixteen and a half miles. And

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Speaker 1: then there's the Hurst Fire Hurst Hurst Fire in the

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Speaker 1: San Fernando Valley, which has burned a little bit less

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Speaker 1: than a mile. So this is you know, we're watching

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Speaker 1: these videos come out of California and they're just really dystopian,

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Speaker 1: so dark, and we're just thinking about everybody and hoping

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Speaker 1: they're okay. Seventy thousand residents so far under evacuation orders,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of those evacuations were in the Palasa

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Speaker 1: Hides parts of Santa Monica. Four hundred thousand people without power,

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Speaker 1: that's half a million people. Continues with these high winds,

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Speaker 1: no ray and lots and lots of fire. It's really important,

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Speaker 1: you know. Right now, Trump and a lot of Republicans

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Speaker 1: are trying to blame these fires and Governor Gavin Newsom.

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Speaker 1: But the truth is, like we all know, these fires

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Speaker 1: have been getting worse and worse because of climate change,

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Speaker 1: because California is a hot, dry climate, and as it

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Speaker 1: gets hotter and drier and the weather gets more intense fires.

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Speaker 1: You know, they spread more, they cover more area, and

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Speaker 1: you know they have eighty mile an hour winds, And

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Speaker 1: it's just this is not Gavin Newsom's vault. It is

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Speaker 1: the fault of Exxon and Chevron and all the oil

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Speaker 1: companies that knew about climate change fifty years ago. So

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Speaker 1: there are things we can do to cut back on

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Speaker 1: all of the you know, effects of climate change, or

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Speaker 1: we're just going to keep living like this. And so

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Speaker 1: it's really dark and just thinking about everybody in California

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Speaker 1: and hoping that they stay safe, smiling.

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Speaker 2: One of the things you and I often talk about

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Speaker 2: is there's some people who when they have a hammer

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Speaker 2: and everything is a nail. And I'm starting to think

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Speaker 2: that's Trump. With the economy and tariffs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this guy really really really really really wants to

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Speaker 1: really really wants to enact these tariffs. He is now

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Speaker 1: has this he's considering declaring a national economic emergency. By

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Speaker 1: the way, that is insane. Our economy is really really good,

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Speaker 1: and he's going to do it to provide legal justification

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Speaker 1: for a series of universal tariffs on allies and adversaries.

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Speaker 1: Cianna and who's reporting this again? It's Trump Earlier this week,

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Speaker 1: he said he was going to rename the Gulf of

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Speaker 1: Mexico the Gulf of America, or as those of us

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Speaker 1: in the Democratic Party call it, the Gulf of Trump

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Speaker 1: being unable to make egg prices any lower. Look, you know,

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Speaker 1: Trump is going to throw a lot of stuff at

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Speaker 1: the wall. This would be a terrible, terrible idea. I

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Speaker 1: hope Democrats will push back on it as much as possible.

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Speaker 1: We know historically Herbert Hoover did this. It caused the

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Speaker 1: United States economy to crash. It was a huge mistake.

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Speaker 1: Nobody wants these tariffs, not you know, but Trump somehow

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Speaker 1: thinks that it would make things less expensive. We all

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Speaker 1: know tariffs are wildly inflationary. It will make everything more expensive.

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Speaker 1: You know, he wants to put a sixty percent tariff

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Speaker 1: on Chinese goods and ten percent tariff on global exports.

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Speaker 1: Let's hope that there are enough cornups in the room

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Speaker 1: who convinced him not to.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, another fun news. Everybody's wondering why President Trump is

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Speaker 2: so interested in Greenland and the Panama Canal and willing

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Speaker 2: to use military coercion to get them. What do you

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Speaker 2: see here?

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Speaker 1: May so Trump is saying he's willing to use military

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Speaker 1: coercion to get there. I wouldn't trust him. My thinking

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Speaker 1: is that Trump says a lot of stuff. He speaks

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Speaker 1: in this fombastic way, and the hope of getting our

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Speaker 1: allies to do what he wants, he wants people to

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Speaker 1: think he's crazy. He wants Mexico and Canada to think

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Speaker 1: he might invade them in the hopes of them negotiating

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Speaker 1: with him on tariffs. I don't think any of this

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Speaker 1: is Again. His justification here, or least according to USA Today,

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Speaker 1: is that it's an expansionist minded that he's worried that

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Speaker 1: an expansionist minded China and Russia might be jocking for

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Speaker 1: geopolitical supremacy. This is really stupid. China is in the

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Speaker 1: middle of having a somewhat of a financial crisis. Russia

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Speaker 1: is very very much, you know, financially exhausted by the

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Speaker 1: war in Ukraine, and this is ridiculous. Republicans have been

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Speaker 1: using about taking back the Paama Canal since Carter, and

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Speaker 1: it's really been a kind of dog whistle. It's totally

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Speaker 1: not going to happen. But it's also just a way

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Speaker 1: in which republic and are able to kind of show

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Speaker 1: themselves to be colonialists and to say, you know, these

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Speaker 1: other countries, we have supremacy over them. And so I

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Speaker 1: would just look to this as kind of it's its

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Speaker 1: own sort of dog whistle. It's like they're eating the dogs.

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Speaker 1: It's this idea that Trump thinks that he can sort

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Speaker 1: of do whatever he wants. And again it does feed

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Speaker 1: into this Nixonian idea that maybe he can be the

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Speaker 1: strong man and that can intimidate our allies and adversaries.

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Speaker 1: But I wouldn't put a lot of stock in this.

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Speaker 1: But I would also say that I think that they're

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Speaker 1: you know, Greenland continues to not be for sales, so

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Speaker 1: and Trump does not have you know, a one percent

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Speaker 1: win in the popular vote is not a mandate to

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Speaker 1: go to war with Denmark. So I think we all

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Speaker 1: just need to take a deep breath here and realize that.

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Speaker 1: And I wouldn't I Also the mistake, I think is

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Speaker 1: to sort of say that Trump is doing something that's

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Speaker 1: well thought out, when in fact, a lot of times

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Speaker 1: he's just doing whatever's right in front of him or

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Speaker 1: whatever somebody told him on plane on the way there.

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Speaker 1: So don't give Trump too much credit.

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Speaker 2: Somalie I think we have to eat a little crow here,

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Speaker 2: and I'm not talking about Harlan. We're not going to

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Speaker 2: eat the rich here. Merrick Garland intends to release Special

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Speaker 2: Counsel report on Trump's Gen six case. Doo JSAs So.

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Speaker 1: Merrick Garland says he's going to release the Special Council

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Speaker 1: Report on Trump's January sixth case. Look, Merk Garland has

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Speaker 1: tended to not be the horse to bet on for bravery.

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Speaker 1: But you know who knows.

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Speaker 4: Those are very very polite saying there you have there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but perhaps now he will change his spots. We

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Speaker 1: never know. It's possible. Good for Merrik Garland if he

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Speaker 1: wants to be brave at the eleventh hour. Anyone here

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Speaker 1: is welcome. Though he has really been such a disappointment,

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Speaker 1: let me tell you, you know, talk about not having

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Speaker 1: been playing three dimensional jazz.

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Speaker 4: Or even the two dimensional one or even two. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 4: i'd call it. You know those chess games where somebody

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Speaker 4: just leaves the board for a while, it doesn't do anything.

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Speaker 4: She decides to not make a move for a long time.

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Speaker 4: So I think we've been looking at.

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Speaker 1: That's it, Marca. Yes, Kurt Anderson is the author of

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Speaker 1: Evil geniuses and the co creator of Commands THEE. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to Fast Politics.

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Speaker 5: Kurt, My pleasure as ever.

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Speaker 1: You know why I wanted to have you on was

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Speaker 1: because I was reading a book that was all about

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Speaker 1: how Pap Buchanan, you know, said a lot of early

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Speaker 1: Trump stuff, et cetera, and that got me thinking about

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Speaker 1: sort of the history of how Republicans lost their minds,

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Speaker 1: and that is you So let us talk well.

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Speaker 5: Happy Canon obviously was the Trump prototype. You know, he

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Speaker 5: was a famous journalist, media funded guy, and and that

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Speaker 5: is what led him to run for president in nineteen

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Speaker 5: ninety two, nineteen ninety six and did pretty well as

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Speaker 5: a Trump Trump plus thirty IQ points and Trump who

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Speaker 5: actually knows stuff and knows history, but and has this coherent,

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Speaker 5: more coherent idea about you know, the right wing populism

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Speaker 5: that from the degree he has in ideology bodies. So yeah,

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Speaker 5: there he was doing all this stuff, you know, back

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Speaker 5: in the nineties. And at the same time that, you know,

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Speaker 5: he had the new gingrich taking over the House and

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Speaker 5: being a right winger in that way and moving the

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Speaker 5: party right. But no, but Patty Cannon was really in

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Speaker 5: his way ahead of his time. That's why when we

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Speaker 5: did one of our spy magazine specials in right right

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Speaker 5: around then when he spoke at the right after he

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Speaker 5: spoke at the Republican Convention in ninety two, and he

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Speaker 5: gave this cultural war speech, and we we just we've

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Speaker 5: put it on our special on NBC Prime Time, ran

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Speaker 5: thirty seconds of it translated into well, not translated but

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Speaker 5: actually just with a soundtrack of Hitler speaking as his

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Speaker 5: book and amazingly standards and practices at NBC let us

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Speaker 5: do that. But yes, Pabriu Khan was there early, and

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Speaker 5: Donald Trump grew and inherited that beginning version of the

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Speaker 5: modern Republican party.

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Speaker 3: He did.

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Speaker 1: And it's funny because it's like I'm thinking about, like

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Speaker 1: the big Senate loss that Democrats had in nineteen eighty, Right,

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Speaker 1: wasn't that the biggest the second biggest loss a single

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Speaker 1: party had ever had?

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Speaker 5: I trust you on that. But the eighties were, yeah,

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Speaker 5: I mean obviously the Reagan land slide and then bigger

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Speaker 5: Lan slide in eighty four.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm just wondering, like I'm trying, because I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to grapple with what exactly happened during this election

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Speaker 1: that I still am not able to process, and so

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to sort of think about it in the

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Speaker 1: historical precedent. I mean, do you when you think about

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Speaker 1: this election, what does it remind you of?

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Speaker 5: Well, does it remind me of Reagan? Particularly because that

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Speaker 5: was genuinely, you know, a mandate in a landslide, especially

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Speaker 5: eighty four, so it was different there. I mean, you know, yes,

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Speaker 5: we finally had a Republican the first since you know,

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Speaker 5: two thousand and four, to become president, having won the

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Speaker 5: popular vote. But he won it barely, and I don't

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Speaker 5: want to over diminish the reality and the significance of

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Speaker 5: he won. He won by you know, healthy electoral vote margin,

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Speaker 5: and one in many areas, including New York City. Of course,

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Speaker 5: moves significantly right in being voting for trumpmore so it

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Speaker 5: meant something, But it isn't to me yet anything like

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Speaker 5: eighty eighty four. One thing is one I'm thinking about

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Speaker 5: nineteen eighty is you know, Yes, in nineteen seventy six,

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Speaker 5: seventy seven, eight nine, all of us liberals thought, oh

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Speaker 5: my god, this guy's a nut. What's he going to do?

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Speaker 1: Well?

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Speaker 5: Immediately, he didn't govern as a nut. He governed as

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Speaker 5: a very conservative Republican and talked to Tipple Neil, the

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Speaker 5: Speaker of the House, and yes, said mister Gorbacheff, tear

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Speaker 5: this wall down, but pursued daytide with NATO. You know,

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Speaker 5: it was it was a whole different thing.

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Speaker 6: It was.

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Speaker 5: It was in retrospect. Although there was a lot of

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Speaker 5: hair on fire Sky's falling talk in seventy nine and eighty,

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Speaker 5: it didn't turn out that way. I'm not saying he

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Speaker 5: was a great president, but he was a normal president

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Speaker 5: and we all like adapted to it and it didn't

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Speaker 5: do crazy things. So it isn't like that, so I

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Speaker 5: know in my lifetime, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, it is its own thing, closest to Nixon, except

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Speaker 1: if Nixon had gone realized.

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Speaker 5: As he was an inheritor of Pat Buchanan, Pat Buchanan

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Speaker 5: before he became the famous Pat Buchanan running for president,

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Speaker 5: of course, worked for Richard Nixon. That was his big

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Speaker 5: first thing as a political figure. And he was to

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Speaker 5: Nixon's right and he was the House right winger, whereas Nixon.

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Speaker 5: Because it was nineteen sixty eight, sixty nine to seventy

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Speaker 5: seventy one, it was still the sixties. Effectively, it was

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Speaker 5: still this liberal hegemony. Democrats still ran Congress and everything else,

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Speaker 5: and you know, we have the Democrats and liberals were

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Speaker 5: complacent because they basically run the show for you know,

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Speaker 5: since the New DA in World War Two and done

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Speaker 5: pretty well, so like it was fine. So Nixon was,

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Speaker 5: in fact, until arguably I think the Biden administration the

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Speaker 5: most liberal president we've had in my life. But what

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Speaker 5: Nixon did and felt and embodied the way Trump does

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Speaker 5: in his bizarre worldwide was this resentment of the elite,

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Speaker 5: you know, the resentment of the elite. And he created

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Speaker 5: his silent majority during the Vietnam War and during the

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Speaker 5: counterculture and during the anti Hippie period, during the protests

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Speaker 5: that all of you regular, normal, good Americans, don't we

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Speaker 5: hate these the media and these hippies and these uppy

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Speaker 5: black people and all the rest. So, yes, Donald Trump,

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Speaker 5: in his crewed again Nixon minus fifty I key points

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Speaker 5: revived that he is, in his semi witning, unwinning way,

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Speaker 5: the inheritor of this of the worst of Republicanism of

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Speaker 5: the last sixty years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's funny because when we talk about I

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Speaker 1: just want to fact check from Jesse here in nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty Democrats lost fourteen seats in nineteen eighty four. They

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Speaker 1: lost too in the Senate.

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Speaker 5: Even though Reagan's victory was bigger, right, and you see

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Speaker 5: that and when it gets hopeful, like the electorate goes, okay,

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Speaker 5: we give you fourteen more seats in the center, Oh

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Speaker 5: my gosh, Senate, you know majority, Oh, big landslide for Reagan.

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Speaker 5: But it also at the same time pulled back, you know,

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Speaker 5: it reacted and kind of in his overall way, does

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Speaker 5: this thing of forward or to the right one two

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Speaker 5: steps back to the central one. And that's what it did,

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Speaker 5: as those numbers about the Senate and Congress showed. So

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Speaker 5: we'll see. I mean, it's very hard because you know,

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Speaker 5: we've gotten all tired of saying, oh, it's unprecedented, it's unprecedented. Well,

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Speaker 5: this is a freakishly new unprecedented thing. So well saying

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Speaker 5: it's like this election or that election in the past,

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Speaker 5: I don't know, I don't see it. You know, it's

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Speaker 5: not there. I mean, there are bits and pieces they're like,

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Speaker 5: I mean, there is some nineteen sixty eightitionists here, but

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Speaker 5: which was a close election but a victory for you know,

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Speaker 5: this bullying Richard Nixon version of the beginnings of you know,

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Speaker 5: working class appeal, which was, to say, in nineteen sixty eight,

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Speaker 5: as it was in sixty four, an appeal to the South,

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Speaker 5: that was the white South which was so upset about

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Speaker 5: civil rights.

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Speaker 1: Right, you're bringing this up a really important point here,

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Speaker 1: which is this idea of like the backlash from a

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Speaker 1: sort of backlash to this, a backlash to that, the

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Speaker 1: sort of movement of the sixties, and then a backlash

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Speaker 1: with Nixon, and then the seventies and Carter, and a

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Speaker 1: backlash with Reagan. It feels like if you look at

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, it was Trump and then it was me too,

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Speaker 1: and then there was there just been backlash and backlash

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Speaker 1: and backlash and back What do you make of that

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Speaker 1: and talk to us more about it.

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Speaker 5: Well, it's you know, the right being the right uses

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Speaker 5: the backlash effectively again and again. I mean, that's almost

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Speaker 5: the nature of its different nests from the left in

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Speaker 5: this country to do it. But whereas what Democrats do

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Speaker 5: over and over again, did it with Clinton in the nineties,

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Speaker 5: did it with Obama in the aughts, Yeah, the aughts

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Speaker 5: and tens, and then did it again with Biden is

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Speaker 5: clean up the basically budget busting, deficit building messes of

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Speaker 5: the Republicans who precede them. So that's what they have

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Speaker 5: over these last six years, in addition to stupidly and

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Speaker 5: incorrectly dumping the white working class and labor unions as

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Speaker 5: they started doing in the seventies and eighties. They because

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Speaker 5: they're responsible good boys and girls, are the ones who

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Speaker 5: sort of balance the budget and try to be responsible

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Speaker 5: and govern after the kind of drunken, fiscally nuts benders

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Speaker 5: that they inherit from Republicans, you know. And that's how

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Speaker 5: we turned into in this last election, and Kama Harris

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Speaker 5: and the Democrats into the goody goody elitist responsible people

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Speaker 5: who are effectively conservatives. They want to get back to normality.

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Speaker 5: And there is this rowing hunger that has been here

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Speaker 5: for thirty years since since the industrialization of the rust

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Speaker 5: belt and all that happened economically starting in the nineties especially,

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Speaker 5: There has to be a change. There is I won't

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Speaker 5: say revolutionary, but there is this intense reformist, populist This

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Speaker 5: is screwed up, this is rig We don't understand our

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Speaker 5: healthcare system. It doesn't provide for us. You know. College

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Speaker 5: is unaffordable and our on. And so the electorate, in

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Speaker 5: its mostly low information, ignorant way, reaches out anywhere it can.

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Speaker 5: And Donald Trump looks like he'll shake it up, you know.

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Speaker 5: I mean, people don't know, and they for that rather

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Speaker 5: than this kind of college educated, good boys and girls

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Speaker 5: version of Democrats from al Gore to Kamala Harris.

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Speaker 3: What do you think Democrats should do?

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Speaker 1: Obviously it's a different world than it was in twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 1: There's not the same. The mainstream media is not what

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Speaker 1: it was. I mean, I am so struck by Oprah

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Speaker 1: doing an event with Harris.

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Speaker 3: And I love Oprah and thinks she's a genius.

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Speaker 1: But Joe Rogan having doing three hours with Trump gets

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Speaker 1: in front of like seventy million people, whereas television doesn't

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Speaker 1: get in.

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Speaker 3: Front of those numbers anymore.

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Speaker 1: So I'm wondering what you think, Democrats, what that solve

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Speaker 1: is for this, because this is something I spent a

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Speaker 1: probably disproportionate amount of my time obsessing about. I mean,

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Speaker 1: what do you think the answer is? Because clearly what

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Speaker 1: we saw from Biden's loss was Biden passed a lot

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Speaker 1: of really good legislation and voters not the voters who

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Speaker 1: watch television or read the news, but the voters who

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Speaker 1: make up the line and share the vote, right, because

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Speaker 1: Trump won and he won the popular vote, they didn't know.

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Speaker 3: So what did Democrats do?

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Speaker 7: Well?

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Speaker 5: Donald Trump is this unwittingly brilliant person in many ways,

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Speaker 5: And there's all these quotes that had such meaning in

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Speaker 5: the aftermath, like a star gets to do whatever he wants.

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Speaker 5: He said that you know years ago about sexual assault,

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Speaker 5: Well he's living it in every way. I can appoint

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Speaker 5: these idiots in the cabinet, I can shoot somebody on

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Speaker 5: Fifth Avenue. All those things are so true and so real,

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Speaker 5: and he's living not in so many ways. So I'm

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Speaker 5: not saying, oh, we need a Trump. However, the level

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Speaker 5: of understanding that politics is, and certainly for the lessons

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Speaker 5: in the TV age and since, been a show. It

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Speaker 5: is a show, and just face up to it. Maybe

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Speaker 5: you don't like it, Okay, fine, that's the way it is.

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Speaker 5: So all of that implies in a way that you

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Speaker 5: can still keep your human dignity and stick to more

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Speaker 5: or less the facts, live with that be a little

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Speaker 5: more incautious. I mean, that's the thing about you know,

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Speaker 5: whether you're again, whether you're al Gore. I don't want

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Speaker 5: to keep mentioning al Gore, but he he to me,

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Speaker 5: he was as people said at the time, he was

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Speaker 5: the boy who got good grades and every adult's idea

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Speaker 5: of a good young person and all that. Kama Harris, too,

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Speaker 5: was the well behaved and highly cautious person, you know who,

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Speaker 5: whether she did or didn't, have a a kind of

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Speaker 5: human political center that she shared with the world. And

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Speaker 5: I liked her fine, just like I like them all fine.

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Speaker 5: I like all these Democrats fine. But she was highly

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Speaker 5: cautious and that prevented her from being effective. So that's

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Speaker 5: one thing I think democrats have to do is and

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Speaker 5: people have talked about it. Whether you're Chris Murphy, oddly

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Speaker 5: the most good boy Democrat, we have one of them

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Speaker 5: who says, oh no, we got to be populous, we

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Speaker 5: got to I agree with him. It's funny coming from

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Speaker 5: that messenger, how right he is. But that's what you need.

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Speaker 5: You need the you know, the Dan Odsbourn's the guy

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Speaker 5: who did so well running as an independent Nebraska. You

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Speaker 5: need all these people from various ideological stripes. John Fetterman,

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Speaker 5: I don't care, you know, moderate, you know, progressive, socialists,

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Speaker 5: maybe even conservative Democrats, But it's less about this specific

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Speaker 5: ideological stripe, you know, and that all obviously depends on

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Speaker 5: where they're running from for what as opposed to the style,

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Speaker 5: the approach, the sense of authenticity, all those things. I mean,

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Speaker 5: none of this. I'm not saying anything you haven't heard

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Speaker 5: a million times and thought through. That's to me what

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Speaker 5: the Democrats need to do as well as you knows,

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Speaker 5: as Murphy and many other people say, you know, under

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Speaker 5: recapture what I wrote, what I've spent a book writing

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Speaker 5: Evil Geniuses, about a version, a twenty first century version

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Speaker 5: of being on the side of the powerless and the

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Speaker 5: workers against the man and capitalists and the ruling class

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Speaker 5: and the evil geniuses. And when you see as we

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Speaker 5: saw in this incredible Trump press comforence at his mansion

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Speaker 5: club the other day, you know, the brazen corruption, it's

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Speaker 5: really it's just amazing. It made me think of the

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Speaker 5: as I've been thinking about that comference, oh in the

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Speaker 5: week since it's happened, days since it happened, the oh,

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Speaker 5: we're not going back Comaho said again again, Well, we

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Speaker 5: if Trump and the Republicans have they wear, we are

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Speaker 5: definitely going back and not just to pre row, which

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Speaker 5: is what that The main subtext of that slogan was,

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Speaker 5: we're going back to the eighteen nineties and nineteen hundreds early,

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Speaker 5: you know, we're going back to robber barons. We're going

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Speaker 5: back to just shameless corruption. That press conference is amazing. Okay,

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Speaker 5: here it is at mar A Lago, an artifact of

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Speaker 5: the era. He has his his Emiathi billionaire golf course

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Speaker 5: developer partner there, who he said, oh yeah, we're going

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Speaker 5: to give this guy government deals to build data centers

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Speaker 5: and due real estate billions of dollars.

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Speaker 7: Oh yeah.

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Speaker 5: Here's Eric, my son over there in the back and

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Speaker 5: he's building Trump towers in the Middle East. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 5: and we also just got a new the Saudi Golf

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Speaker 5: Tour is going to have a great tournament at my

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Speaker 5: hotel in Miami, the Dural And oh yeah, yeah, here's

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Speaker 5: my here's my crypto business partner who's also my middist

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Speaker 5: envoy to Helly, Steve Wodcoff. He'll tell you about what

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Speaker 5: we're doing in Gaza.

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Speaker 3: I mean very conflicted, right.

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Speaker 5: I mean conflicted, beyond conflicted. It's just like, nope, this

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Speaker 5: is corrupt and this is no logarchy. Welcome to it now.

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Speaker 5: In the last time this happened in the center good

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Speaker 5: ended in what was you know, certainly until Watergate, the

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Speaker 5: most famous presidential scandal in history, which was the teapot

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Speaker 5: Dome scandal, which was oil and all that. This stuff

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Speaker 5: doesn't last forever. I guess that's what I take my

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Speaker 5: knowledge of history and my long view being old, is

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Speaker 5: that none of the there is all his here tofore

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Speaker 5: unless history suddenly changes. And I don't think it's going

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Speaker 5: to in this sense. It's one way or another. It

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Speaker 5: swings back. There is a counter reaction, and you know,

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Speaker 5: I mean the Republicans in a certain sense, and some

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Speaker 5: of them do know it, which is why the you know,

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Speaker 5: in his disgusting, egregious way, Josh Hawley, you know, for instance, uh,

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Speaker 5: you know, mouths and sometimes does more than mouth does

432
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 5: things with Bernie Sanders on behalf of you know, versions

433
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 5: of actual economic populism rather than just cultural populism and

434
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,719
Speaker 5: be more manly and all that stuff. So so there

435
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,919
Speaker 5: are you know, there are Republicans who understand that. To me,

436
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 5: the the the inherent contradiction that they've lived with, you know,

437
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 5: in the in the fifty odd years, they've been trying

438
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:31,919
Speaker 5: to be both the party of the white working class

439
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 5: and the party of the billionaires. You know, at a

440
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 5: certain point, one hopes, one thinks it just becomes you know, irreconcilable.

441
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 5: But we'll see. I mean, that's that's that's the weird

442
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,880
Speaker 5: contradiction that has exists among Republicans and on the right

443
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 5: and has which is, oh, yeah, we're the working class

444
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 5: party of people who are who are just you know,

445
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 5: who have undertaken and successfully done and now want to

446
00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 5: redouble the transfer of wealth from the have not to

447
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 5: the tops of the haves. You know, that's what they

448
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,159
Speaker 5: want to do in their big one bill that gives

449
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 5: you know, extends these twenty seventeen tax cuts for billionaires

450
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 5: another five or ten years.

451
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Kurt. I hope you will come.

452
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 5: Back always and happy to be your little resident historian

453
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 5: or when I play on podcasts anyway.

454
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,919
Speaker 1: John Gantz is the author of When the Clock Broke,

455
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 1: Comment Conspiracyists, and How America Cracked Up in the early

456
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, and the author of the substack on Popular

457
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 1: front Welcome to Fast Politics.

458
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 5: John, Thanks so much for having me.

459
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 3: Molly. How are you doing You know, I'm good.

460
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 1: I mean, whatever is happening here.

461
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 3: In fact, let's talk about what's happening here. I read

462
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 3: your excellent book.

463
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: Thanks, you're welcome. I want you to give us a

464
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 1: sort of how you think we got here?

465
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 7: Where to begin? I mean, my book begins in the

466
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 7: nineteen nineties, and essentially what it begins to pick up

467
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 7: in the story that was still kind of going on

468
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 7: in the underbelly and hadn't really made its way through

469
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 7: the mainstream, was that there was a fact that the

470
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 7: Republican Party, who called South of Paleo Consbermaden, which wanted

471
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 7: the Republicans that pursue a very different kind of politics,

472
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 7: and they had pursued up until that point, which was

473
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 7: sort of moving to the sector, moderating, embracing certain ideas

474
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 7: of liberalism while you know, rejecting their own and bringing

475
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 7: along ideas of conservatism. For them, Ronald Reagan was two

476
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 7: at wing, which probably sounds to you and I, you

477
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,120
Speaker 7: and I as being rather crazy. They wanted a type

478
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 7: of politics that could smash the institutions and elites of liberalism,

479
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 7: and they believed a kind of charismatic emigog figure. They

480
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 7: put it that bluntly would be the man to do it.

481
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 3: They almost sort of got it.

482
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 7: Huh, there were prefigurations of it. Patu Cannon's primary campaign

483
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 7: against George H. W. Bush was kind of unexpectedly strong

484
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 7: and gave that campaign fits and may have even sunk it.

485
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 7: And then you have Ross Perrot, who comes along in

486
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 7: that era, not exactly considering movement, would certainly come kinds

487
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 7: of conservative and right wing ailance to his populist campaign

488
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 7: running against the establishment as a kind of billionaire who

489
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 7: could fix everything. That era, you get kind of eerie

490
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 7: precursors to what's happened since I noticed that there is

491
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 7: a terrible distance act between the American public and the

492
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 7: institutions that are supposed to represent it. And this has

493
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 7: created an enormous amount of of resentment and anger. And

494
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 7: the least which which could be the beneficiary of this

495
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 7: of this anger against say, an unequal economy, hasn't seized

496
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 7: upon it. The right has with a different set of

497
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 7: issues and concerns, part of which is an unequal economy,

498
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 7: but they would do don't know why that is so. Yeah,

499
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 7: I think that we have come to the terminus of

500
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 7: this political wave that began at this time and likened

501
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:07,199
Speaker 7: toy sixteen. What unites the rather contradictory, incoherent coalition behind Trump.

502
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 7: You know, you had people who were angry about the

503
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 7: war in Gaza for exactly opposite reasons. Voting for Trump

504
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,159
Speaker 7: is a sense that he's a protest vote is a

505
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 7: sense that he represents the interruption of as usual. Now,

506
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 7: how much of that is real and how much of

507
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 7: that is part of the Trump showmanship? I mean, I

508
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 7: think we can tell, but that is definitely a big

509
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 7: part of his appeal.

510
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:29,120
Speaker 3: I think that's right.

511
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 1: Right, So the idea is the nineties again, is this

512
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 1: New Gingridge set the table for this?

513
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 7: Right?

514
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 5: Yeah?

515
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 7: I think New Gingrich is definitely a part of it.

516
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 7: New Gingrich, I think saw the kind of confrontational politics

517
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 7: his constituents wanted. He was still a creature of the

518
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 7: Republican Party. Trump kind of brings us to his conclusion

519
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 7: by attacking the Republican Party from outside. You know, the

520
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 7: Tea Party was already beginning to do that, but again,

521
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 7: closer to the conventional conservative movement perhaps than Trump. But Trump,

522
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 7: you know, represents a kind of hostile takeover of the

523
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 7: Republican Party, and in a weird way internal democracy in

524
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 7: the Republican Party. The elites of the Republican Party could

525
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 7: not stop him and decided that it wasn't worth it.

526
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 7: Two because he was where their constituencies were at, where

527
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 7: the voter, what the voters wanted, and he was the

528
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 7: only really powerful figure on the national stage that they had. Now,

529
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 7: you know what's interesting even about this election, and I

530
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 7: think going forward to think about, is where are the

531
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 7: limits of Trump's electoral power?

532
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 6: Right?

533
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 7: Well, you know, he won the popular vote this time,

534
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 7: which he couldn't do before. But you notice the really

535
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 7: fringy people that he tries to bring along with him

536
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 7: often go down. It seems like the electorate has a limit, right,

537
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 7: So Roy Moore goes down, Mark Robinson goes down, Blake

538
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 7: Masters goes down. There are certain people who they just

539
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 7: decided are a little too weird. Now the line seems

540
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 7: to be that jd Vance is okay, He's relatively normal

541
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 7: in their view. Trump is relatively normal in their view.

542
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 7: But the line sort of gets dropped at the Moors

543
00:29:58,480 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 7: and the Robinsons.

544
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: I want to talk about Jady Mans for another minute,

545
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: because Jadvance is a fascinating character to me because he

546
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: was never Trump, and then he was Trump curious, and

547
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: then he was Trump. So Trump loves a convert. But

548
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: does this crew just go along with that?

549
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 7: I mean, jad Vance is an extraordinarily ambitious man who

550
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 7: came from a modest background and advanced himself through America's

551
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 7: elite institutions. He became, for a brief period of time

552
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 7: a kind of darling of Liberal America when Hillbiliology came

553
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 7: out as a kind of explainer of the Trump enthusiasm.

554
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 7: I think he had a bit of a falling out

555
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 7: with Liberal America because they soured on him and picked

556
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 7: up on some of the weirder, nastier parts of that book,

557
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 7: and we're not thrilled with its adaptation for Netflix. I

558
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 7: think he felt personally wounded by this, but I think

559
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 7: he also knew that the future of the Republican Party

560
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 7: was with Trump, and as a politically and socially ambitious person,

561
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 7: he went through this. He also had many of his

562
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 7: mentors and close friends moved in those circles. I mean,

563
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 7: he worked for Peter Tiel. He is part of what

564
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 7: I would call like the authoritarian Right family, which is

565
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 7: a kind of intellectual demimon that's you know, probably built

566
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 7: their social media and group chats. That's interested in kind

567
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 7: of post liberal and post democratic visions for America.

568
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: Right, I'm going to make you like explain this to

569
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: our listeners because you and I know the shorthand here,

570
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: but like I don't want to have a moment of

571
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: saying bacon if that makes sense for sure, So I

572
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: want you to explain. This is the mensches mo bug

573
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:46,479
Speaker 1: that's Curtis Jarvin's stage name. These are this is the

574
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: intellectual dark Web, So explain what that is.

575
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 7: Well, I think essentially what it is, I mean not

576
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 7: to get to you. Conspiratorial is is a is a

577
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 7: group of intellectuals and semi intellectuals and media figures that

578
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 7: exist in a broad patrenage network created by Peter Teel

579
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 7: who combine authoritarian ideas about American governance with a kind

580
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 7: of belief in technological advancement. So they're kind of reactionary

581
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 7: futurists or reaction ra a modernist group. But they have

582
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 7: a variety of different theories about American government that's non democratic.

583
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 7: Curtis Jarvin Menius mobug Is is very into It sounds silly,

584
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 7: but he's very into the history of absolute monarchy. He's

585
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 7: very elitist.

586
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: Yes, I was hoping you were going to bring up monarchy,

587
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: because can you explain to us what the history there is.

588
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 7: He aligns on this idea by taking his anarcho capitalist

589
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 7: ideas to their absurd limit, which is that basically the

590
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 7: world should be modeled on family businesses, which he interprets

591
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 7: the history of monarchies and feudalism in Europe to be.

592
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 7: That's not quite right, but that's basically what he thinks

593
00:32:58,240 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 7: the model of the world should be is these kind

594
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 7: of patriarchal family businesses, of which Trump is close enough.

595
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 7: So yeah, he's interested in monarchy as a replacement of democracy,

596
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 7: which is different than say, people on the populist right

597
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 7: or even on the fascist right, who have a populist

598
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 7: notion of replacing liberal democracy with something that's more representative

599
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 7: of the true people. Now, Curtis Jarvin mentions Molbug, he

600
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 7: doesn't believe in the true people. He believes that the

601
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 7: Republican voter is not some kind of sturdy, heartland person

602
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 7: whose common sense could be relied upon. He thinks that

603
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 7: they're kind of redneck idiots who need to be ruled

604
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 7: by what he calls the dark elves, these true elites,

605
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 7: of whom, of course he's a member. So there's a

606
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 7: variety of different visions here, but what unites them all

607
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 7: is basically a belief that the liberal democratic model of

608
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 7: capitalism is exhausted, is over, and needs to be replaced

609
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 7: with some kind of form of authoritarianism. Some of these

610
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 7: people look very favorably to Singapore. Obviously, there's a lot

611
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 7: of interest on the right in dictatorships like Franco's and Salazar's,

612
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 7: and you know, among some people who don't get as

613
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 7: much public hearing, of course because they try to keep

614
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 7: them in the shadows Hitler and Mussolini, and a lot

615
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 7: of interest unsurprisingly and apartheid South Africa, where David Sachs,

616
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:22,280
Speaker 7: Peter Teel and a lot of muscle got their start, yeah,

617
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:28,359
Speaker 7: which was you know, an extremely hierarchical, brutal, authoritarian form

618
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 7: of capitalist development that took place in the middle part

619
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 7: of the twentieth century. So they basically believe in capitalism

620
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 7: without democracy. The thing about what united the American left

621
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 7: and right for you know, in the post Warrior and

622
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 7: longer than that, was a belief in capitalism plus democracy.

623
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 7: Now what Teal at all are proposing as capitalism minus

624
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 7: democracy or maybe a different form of democracy, not liberal democracy.

625
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 2: Certainly.

626
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:55,479
Speaker 5: Right.

627
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: It's funny because I just recently read a book about

628
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: how much right has always loved authoritarians.

629
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 7: Yes, that's also true America last.

630
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 1: Yes, America last, Yes. I just read that book, and

631
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:13,720
Speaker 1: in it it is all about how even at their best,

632
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: Republicans were still like Franco's Gray, talk about that.

633
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 7: Yeah, there's always been a curiosity on the American right

634
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:25,280
Speaker 7: or authoritarian regimes. You know, they are not the only

635
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 7: people who can be charged with this. Obviously, American left

636
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 7: had a lot of sympathy and interest for a long

637
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 7: time in the Soviet Union, and not just communist liberals. Also,

638
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 7: you looked favorably on the Soviet Union until you know,

639
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 7: it became clear what Stalinism really was.

640
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 3: My grandfather was one of the last people to reject Stiles.

641
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 7: Yeah, of course, I was going to say, you know

642
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 7: this very well. So they can't be charged entirely with this.

643
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 7: There's a tendency among American and American politics in general

644
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 7: to look for models overseas. The models that the right

645
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 7: wing looks overseas, naturally, are you know, right wing authoritarian model.

646
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 7: You know, obviously, the Catholic National Review looked with great

647
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 7: interest at Franco and Salazar and some of them even

648
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:09,879
Speaker 7: you know, sort of left the orbit of the National

649
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 7: View to kind of join those politics entirely. Even before

650
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 7: the Second World War, America firsters looked with great curiosity

651
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 7: at Mussolini and Hitler, and before that, you know, there

652
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 7: were some of the American rights who thought the Kaiser

653
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 7: offered a type of governance that might be preferable. So, yeah,

654
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 7: it is a very old tradition. The sans among conservatives

655
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 7: and the right is that American society is able to

656
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 7: be manipulated by liberals and changes too fast, and we

657
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 7: need a stronger way of governing to prevent those changes

658
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 7: from happening, a revert to older ways of doing things.

659
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 7: So obviously authoritarian models of rule look appealing, and I

660
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 7: think basically that that's become more less of only an

661
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 7: elite project and something that's shared among grassroots Republicans because

662
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 7: of the real fee years of the changes that have happened,

663
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 7: you know, in the liberalization of the United States around

664
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 7: issues like race and gender.

665
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, such an incredibly strange moment we find ourselves in.

666
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,720
Speaker 1: I wonder if you could explain a little bit about

667
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 1: why Trump is a protest vote even though he was

668
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: president once before.

669
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 7: Well, I think people have fond memories about that administration,

670
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 7: forget very much the downsides of it. I think, you know,

671
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 7: they feel like the economy was cooking and they were

672
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 7: doing well and the big I think these things were

673
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 7: Trump's fault, and because of his bad foreign policy decisions

674
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:43,359
Speaker 7: and his upsetting of certain regular patterns of geopolitical order.

675
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 7: But you know, the wars in Gaza and Ukraine are

676
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 7: concerning to people, seem to be out of control. He

677
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,359
Speaker 7: comes along and says, I can put these things back,

678
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 7: and you know, under control. I don't think it can.

679
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 7: My sense is that he will make things much worse.

680
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 7: But it makes sense, you know, in a world that

681
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,320
Speaker 7: seems to be coming apart. And also, you know, I

682
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 7: frankly think the United States, I mean, Trump is not

683
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 7: no spring chicken either, but the United States, where it

684
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 7: stands in the world in terms of its importance, cannot

685
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 7: be led by someone who looks so frail and old.

686
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 7: It's just it invites a lot of anxiety, both by

687
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 7: people here and people abroad. So I think there is

688
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 7: a sense fairly or unfairly, that the Democrats were unable

689
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 7: to govern, and Trump's kind of showmanship suggests governance. Whether

690
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 7: he's actually able to accomplish governance, I think it's pretty

691
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 7: clear that he's not that good at it, but he

692
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:42,359
Speaker 7: gives the impression that he can take charge. That's out

693
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 7: of appealing to people in a world that seemed to

694
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 7: be coming apart.

695
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 5: Now.

696
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 7: The Democratic Party, you know, they got in shape when

697
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 7: they decided to change candidates, but it seemed like a

698
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 7: chaotic mess, you know, and it was to a certain extent.

699
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 7: It's kind of remarkable they did as well. I think

700
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 7: it stands to try sweaknesses and people's distrusted them that

701
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 7: they did as well as they did. But I think

702
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 7: in another circumstance it could have been a real blowout.

703
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 7: But you know, I think that the fact of the

704
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,760
Speaker 7: matter is, rightly or wrongly, the perception among the public

705
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 7: was that the Democrats were unable to govern, and that's

706
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 7: usually why people vote for a different president. Trump kind

707
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 7: of synthesizes a protest and a return vote because he says, well,

708
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 7: I governed before and it wasn't so bad, and people

709
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 7: kind of remember it that way, which I mean there

710
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,800
Speaker 7: was more to within that, and also, aren't you tired

711
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:32,720
Speaker 7: of these people who don't know their business?

712
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 3: Yeah?

713
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 1: I think that's right, but it is still just strange.

714
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 1: One of the things that Trump World has spent a

715
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 1: lot of time talking about is this idea that this

716
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 1: time and part of twenty twenty five was a little

717
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 1: bit of this sort of pr for this until it

718
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 1: wasn't that this time it's going to all be different

719
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,280
Speaker 1: because this time Trump has got really smart people figuring

720
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: out how he can do a lot of the stuff

721
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 1: that he was not able to do last time. You

722
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: think that's pr we'll see.

723
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 7: I mean, he probably has learned some things about Washington,

724
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 7: DC and governing and politics in his time. Him having

725
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 7: so many challenges with the really not seemingly very well

726
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:18,800
Speaker 7: considered cabinet picks doesn't suggest to me that Republicans believe

727
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,720
Speaker 7: he's a particularly strong leader who can menace them, either

728
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 7: at the polls or in other ways. It seems like

729
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 7: they're willing to stand up to him in limited ways,

730
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 7: especially when they think people don't care, aren't looking. I

731
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 7: don't know. I think also the lessons he has learned

732
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 7: may have been the wrong ones, and his opposition has

733
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 7: also learned lessons of how to deal with him. I

734
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 7: think right now everyone's in kind of wait and see mode.

735
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 3: You know.

736
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 7: I think Trump has personal challenges in terms of just

737
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 7: the capacity of his mind and focus to accomplish some

738
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 7: of the things. And I don't believe he has fully.

739
00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 7: I mean, some people are willing to work with him now,

740
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 7: but I don't know if he has really first class

741
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 7: talent willing to go to bath for him. He also

742
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 7: enters office as a lame duck on day one and less. Instead,

743
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,800
Speaker 7: you know, he goes through with his business of trying

744
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 7: to remain president and so on and so forth. But

745
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 7: I mean, I don't know how seriously that's going to

746
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 7: be taken by you know, there are other people waiting

747
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:21,320
Speaker 7: in line right right.

748
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,880
Speaker 1: He's a very old guy. I mean, it's not like

749
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 1: he's sixty year old.

750
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 7: He could kill over at any moment. I'm sure that

751
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 7: Vance wants to be president one day. I'm sure that

752
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 7: he will try to take advantage of a circumstance that

753
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 7: would allow him to do that. If that, if that

754
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 7: means betraying Trump, he might do it.

755
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

756
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 7: Yeah, I don't think he has any personal loyalties to

757
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,959
Speaker 7: him or cares for him as a person. So yeah,

758
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 7: I think that what we're seeing is as the you know,

759
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 7: the possibilities of a post Trump future is also being considered,

760
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 7: and we'll see that, you know, with how much Republicans

761
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 7: are kind of willing to push back and ignore him,

762
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 7: which you know already looks like quite a bit. But again,

763
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 7: who knows, a very unpredictable person who's also you know,

764
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 7: unlike we can talk about politics normal politics, and that's

765
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 7: true so far as it goes, but it has to

766
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 7: be remembered and how much this stuff works or it's

767
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 7: just bullshit and actually backfires for him, I don't know.

768
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 7: But it has to be taken seriously that Trump is

769
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 7: willing to also do illegal things and not just work

770
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 7: in the in the in the channels of normal politics.

771
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 7: He's willing to commit crimes of of really grave nature. Now,

772
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 7: are we going to be in some kind of environment

773
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 7: where members of the opposition have to be worried about

774
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 7: being gunned down or thrown in prison. I think that

775
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,359
Speaker 7: that might be a stretch, but let's hope not. It's

776
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 7: not totally out of the realm of possibility. Considering that

777
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 7: mobs have been willing to get in the streets and

778
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 7: try to do stuff for him before, So it's not

779
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 7: something that you can last. I mean, I don't see

780
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 7: that as being a law, long term effective mode of

781
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 7: politics and governments. Trumpet, it doesn't seem like he does

782
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 7: either with the way he's talking. He's talking about primary people.

783
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,719
Speaker 3: Right, which is much better than killing.

784
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 7: Right of course, But you know, I don't think he's

785
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 7: above leaning on people in an illegal ways. So I

786
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 7: mean that is a new dynamic to American politics.

787
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 3: It's not a new dynamic.

788
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 1: It's everything as old as new again.

789
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, it's a dynamic that hasn't been in

790
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:28,839
Speaker 7: American politics for quite some time.

791
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, since the sixties. Thank you, Thank you,

792
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 1: John Gantz, Thank you so much for having me.

793
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:44,799
Speaker 6: Molly Moment, Jesse Cannon, Samaijung Fast former two time guests

794
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 6: of this podcast.

795
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 2: Justice riggs down in North Carolina. She was ahead in

796
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,240
Speaker 2: the final vote COUMP by seven hundred and thirty four votes.

797
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 2: But the Republicans because they are clinging onto any power

798
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 2: thereafter having a monumental loss in North Carolina state where

799
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 2: they've done massive remaindering the control for well over a decade,

800
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 2: they're cleaning on the power. What are you seeing here?

801
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,240
Speaker 1: So she won by seven hundred and thirty four votes

802
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 1: and Republicans are basically trying to throw it out. It

803
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 1: is so incredibly this is the nine to one one stuff.

804
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 1: This is the thing. They're refusing to certify the election

805
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 1: results because they don't like what happened. And this is

806
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 1: the kind of stuff that you should be paying attention to.

807
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: This is just really really bad, really like, this is

808
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:35,879
Speaker 1: what trump Ism gave birth to, you know, is this

809
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 1: idea that if we don't like the idea, if we

810
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 1: don't like what happens, we can not not certify the election.

811
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: This is the anti democratic stuff that is so incredibly toxic, corrosive,

812
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 1: bad for democracy. And this is in norms and institution

813
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: that Republicans are trying to destroy. And I hope that

814
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: Roy Cooper will, in fact, you know, step in and

815
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: there is a new Josh din is the new governor,

816
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 1: and that Democrats will force them to certify. And this

817
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 1: may go up to the Supreme Court. But even if

818
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 1: you win by a litle if you win, even being

819
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 1: a Democrat, you still win. And that is why this

820
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 1: is just so appalling, and I hope this gets whooped down.

821
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:31,760
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

822
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best

823
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If

824
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend

825
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.