1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,280 Speaker 1: All right, it's time for this week's classic episode. Riddle 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: me this, Matt. How many Vietnam War veterans have you 3 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: met or do? No? Fairly small handful. But of of 4 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: the folks I have met, not a lot of them 5 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 1: want to sit down with me and talk about their experiences, 6 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 1: and that that makes a lot of sense, I think 7 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: to me. There's some horrendous stuff that went down right 8 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: on all sides. If you're involved in that conflict, there 9 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: was horrible stuff going down right, no matter where you 10 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: are and who you're fighting for. But the US government 11 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: man some bad stuff, including perhaps leaving soldiers behind after 12 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: the conflict that ended. This is the focus of this 13 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,480 Speaker 1: week's classic episode for stuff they don't want you to know. 14 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: The big question did the US abandoned soldiers in Southeast Asia? 15 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: At the close of the Paris Peace Accords, both the 16 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: United States and Vietnam agreed to return any prisoners of 17 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: war to their home countries. This is a heartbreaking thing 18 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: because you know, when when countries make ward is the 19 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: people that suffer. And for many, many years, decades on now, 20 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: there have been rumors, scuttle but speculation, conspiratorial ideas that 21 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: the United States knowingly abandoned its own and left them, 22 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: as the tradecraft slang would say, out in the cold. 23 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: So that's this week's classic episode. And on a personal 24 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: note from Matt and myself, if you have any leads, 25 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: if you have any feedback, we would very much love 26 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: to hear it. We typically give ways to contact us 27 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: at the end of an episode, but for this one 28 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: in particular one eight three three std w y t 29 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: K or our email address which is conspiracy at iHeart 30 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: radio dot com. Let's jump into the episode. From UFOs 31 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with 32 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the 33 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. Hello, and welcome 34 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,239 Speaker 1: back to the show. My name is met, my name 35 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: is known. They called me Ben, and you're you the 36 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,799 Speaker 1: most important part of this show, which is of course 37 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. Ladies and gentlemen, 38 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 1: if this is your first time listening, thank you so 39 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 1: much for dropping by. We we hope that you come 40 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 1: by later to then I have to clear the air here. 41 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: You did all of your intro with your eyes covered 42 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: but forcefully sort of a pained expression on your face. 43 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: What was that about I'm I'm good. Are my eyes 44 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: like act a regular? Do they do that flippy things where? Yeah, yeah, 45 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: are you doing the reptilian stuff in the studio? I 46 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,959 Speaker 1: asked you that we got pretty deep into that reptilian episode. 47 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: We got a lot of a lot of really interesting 48 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: listener mail. Well, it came to a point where we 49 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: were all just thinking with a hive mind, and I 50 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: wonder if we should if we were on the fence 51 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: about whether we should have cut the part where for 52 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: like seventeen minutes we spoke in unison. Yeah, I wonder 53 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: if did you notice that? I just didn't know what 54 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: language it was. But today we are not talking about 55 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: lizard people. Today we were talking about uh something something 56 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: completely different as they used to see, perhaps a monty python. 57 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: We are talking about what is popularly known in the 58 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: US as the Vietnam War. Um, if you are someone 59 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: who is matt or no or eyes age, then you 60 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: likely have relatives if you're in the US, who have 61 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: been involved in that conflict, and if not, then even 62 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: at least seen Platoon right, yes, or any of the 63 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: pieces of popular media that have come out since the 64 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies. Sure, Rambo First Blood Apocalypse now, which is 65 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: my personal favorite Forrest Gump, even Forrest Gump, even yes, 66 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 1: and this um So, the Vietnam War, what what the U. 67 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: S Usually refers to it as is the American incursion 68 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: with the idea of preventing the rise of communism in 69 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: Southeast Asia. That was the official advertisement on the tin 70 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: when it was sold to the American public. Uh. This later, Uh, this, 71 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: this later expanded past Vietnam into Cambodia and Lao. This, 72 00:04:55,480 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: this war has had a lastening and a lasting and 73 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 1: profound effect both on the people of the US and 74 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: the people of Vietnam, as well as arguably the people 75 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: of Russia or the Soviet Union at the time, because 76 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: it ended up being a giant proxy war, right, Yeah, exactly. 77 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: And the Vietnam Wars we consider it began in nineteen 78 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 1: fifty five. Direct US involvement officially ended with the signing 79 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: of a treaty called the Agreement on Ending the War 80 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: and Restoring Peace in Vietnam. A little yeah, it's it's 81 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: a little undernose. I guess they had to spell it out, 82 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 1: you know. Uh. And that was on January nineteen seventy three. 83 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: This document is most often known as the Paris Peace Accords. 84 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: The war itself didn't end until seventy five with the 85 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: fall of Saigon. But what what did this agreement do? Well? 86 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: The agreement itself actually resulted in the release of five 87 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: hundred ninety one American prisoners of war, of whom five 88 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: hundred sixty six were military and twenty five were civilians. Um. 89 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 1: In addition to that, it established a framework for cooperation 90 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: and resolving the po w m I A related questions, 91 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: So prisoners of war and missing in action, and there 92 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: were there were quite a few questions about that. So yeah, 93 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: and because of this, from February nineteen seventy three to 94 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: April nineteen seventy three, Uncle Sam conducted what was called 95 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: Operation Homecoming, and this returned prisoners of war to the 96 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 1: United States. It rescued five hundred and ninety one in total. 97 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 1: So as of sixteen, around one thousand, six d twenty 98 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: one Americans are still officially considered missing or unaccounted for 99 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: for some reason or another during this Vietnam conflict, the 100 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: Vietnam War, or whatever else it was called at the time. 101 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: And this may be a point where many many of 102 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: US lists in the audience may be saying, wait, you 103 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: guys just sort of glossed over the Vietnam War. All 104 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: of a sudden, it's ended. This is not exactly about 105 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: the Vietnam War or the conflict in Southeast Asia, because 106 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: the US has identified two hundred and nineties six individuals 107 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: as last known alive cases in all of Southeast Asia, 108 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: and following full investigations by March of the Defense Department 109 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: confirmed the wartime death of two hundred and forty five 110 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: of these individuals too there um to their official standards, 111 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: because this, friends is the official narrative. However, in the 112 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: decades since the withdrawal of US troops, numerous former military officials, 113 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: government officials, and members of the public believe that this country, 114 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: the United States of America, left service members behind in 115 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: Vietnam and Cambodia and in Laos and Cambodia and lasers, 116 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: particularly the sticky subjects, as in many many cases, the 117 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: US was not supposed to be up there, and they 118 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: were officially, um, but we're not there. And a lot 119 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: of these people don't just believe that they were left behind, 120 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: you know, as in oh oops, we left a bunch 121 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: of our servicemen behind. No, they think it was done 122 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: on purpose, and that the US government has not only 123 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: not been looking for these missing soldiers but actively obstructing 124 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 1: any searches and covering up the entire affair for the 125 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: last forty odd years, right, almost half a century. Double yikes, 126 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 1: double y Why would why would people think that this 127 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: is an extraordinarily common belief here in the US. And 128 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: and we don't know this is a very US specific topic, right, 129 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: so we we're not sure you know how Australian listeners 130 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: feel about this, European listeners or listeners in uh, China 131 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: or Vietnam in specific around the world. So do right 132 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: in and let us know if you have heard of 133 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: this before, which is considered a miscarriage of justice by 134 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: some and an out and out conspiracy theory by others. 135 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: So why on earth would the government do something like that? 136 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: Let's look at sort of the evolution of this suspicions 137 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 1: about remaining service and then start almost immediately after the 138 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: signing of the Paris Peace Accords with we we're just 139 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: going to call him that because, as you pointed out, 140 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: that name is a it's a mouthful. Yeah, no, I 141 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: like the Paris piece of cords. That's got a nice 142 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: ring to it. The other one is just like it's 143 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 1: d LDR. Are we going to save some money on paper? 144 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: Guys like, so this is right, You're right that things 145 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: were very tacky back man. Yeah, well there were longer names, 146 00:09:55,000 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: is what I'm saying for things? Um, yes, all it is. 147 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: It is true. This is a related point for anybody 148 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: who was not alive in three all names were actually longer, 149 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: every single one. The United States of America was actually 150 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: the United States of Cooperative Municipalities with the intention to 151 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: act in concert of America. COMMA named after Amerigo Vespucci. Yes, 152 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: thede dot com. Yeah, yeah, that's actually where the internet 153 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: comes from. Is that that name? Facts, ladies and gentlemen, 154 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: These are facts, alternative facts. Perhaps we're perhaps if this 155 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: sounds crazier, this is the first time you're hearing it. 156 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: We invite you to check out our earlier podcast on 157 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: the Mandela Effect. So President Nixon at the end of 158 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,439 Speaker 1: this he states that all the POW's have been returned 159 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: and now at the time, the US listed two thousand 160 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: six d the six Americans as unaccounted for, including about 161 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: and fifty prisoners of war or missing in action and 162 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: roughly reported killed in action but the body not recovered, 163 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 1: which is, you know, in all seriousness, a a profound tragedy, 164 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: you know, because what happens to the closure for those families, 165 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,839 Speaker 1: I would think not incredibly uncommon, though maybe that's a 166 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,239 Speaker 1: high number, but you know, you're in a war situation 167 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 1: where bodies can be completely obliterated by you know, explosions, 168 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,839 Speaker 1: where you're not going to have any remains, but it's 169 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: too difficult to retrieve them without any commanding officer even 170 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 1: knowing a general location or you know, a general fate. 171 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: That that's uncommon. I mean, war is one of the 172 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: most brutal inventions of our society. And you know, okay, 173 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: arguably humans didn't invent it, because it has been documented 174 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: that other primates have large scale uh conflicts or at 175 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: least tribal level conflicts, but humans have taken it to 176 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: an insidious art form. And you're you're absolutely right, it's 177 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:18,959 Speaker 1: it's odd to have such precise numbers, and for people 178 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: who are not familiar with this, the Vietnam War from 179 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: the us I had some of the best documentation for 180 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 1: war of its kind, so we are able to know 181 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: more of these numbers than we would know, for instance, 182 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: in World War two, right, But Nolan is absolutely right. 183 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: People disappear in war, you know, and that's the that's 184 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,079 Speaker 1: the question. So there's this there's this one thing that 185 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 1: that is kind of a a spark point. It's the 186 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: turn back now or or you know, delve into the 187 00:12:54,320 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: murky stuff that occurs when there's a very low number 188 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: or POW's return from Laos. And this causes immediate concern 189 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,959 Speaker 1: because the Pentagon in secret meetings, right, not really revealed 190 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: to the public. I thought there would be as many 191 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: as forty or forty one prisoners held there, um only 192 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 1: if you have been known to be captured for certain 193 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: And a tiny like a negligible amount of people came back, 194 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:25,319 Speaker 1: like three or something, and the responsibility for finding these 195 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: missing soldiers fell to you're gonna You're gonna like this 196 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: one fell to the Defense Prisoner of War SLASH Missing 197 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: Personnel Office and the Joint po w M I A 198 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 1: accounting commands. Can we at least make it a sexy acronym? 199 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: I know, right well, you will be happy to know 200 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: all that in the National Defense Authorization Act combined to 201 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: those two agencies into one, so thank god, and along 202 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: with one other thing. But yeah, just tack it onto 203 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: the end. Yeah, the ride the movie dot Com. So 204 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: then in the nineteen seventies and eighties, the relatives, the 205 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 1: family and friends of all of these missing personnel started 206 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: getting agitated because as you do, uh, they started becoming 207 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: politically active, and they start requesting that the United States 208 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: reveal what steps they were taking, what steps they took 209 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: and to continue to take to follow up on their 210 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: missing relatives and their loved ones, Like what kind of 211 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: intelligence do you have with regards to these missing and 212 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: action soldiers? Right, they started demanding accountability, and regardless of 213 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: what you personally believe in terms of politics or the 214 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: role of governments state versus federal, local, what have you, Uh, 215 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: accountability should be key in any of these things. And 216 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: accountability goes both ways, you know what I mean, to 217 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: the citizen as well as to the institutions. So this, 218 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: this is a good move, and this is this move 219 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: is saying initially saying, just well, tell us what you're doing, 220 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, shed some light on this 221 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: process because these people could very well be alive. In 222 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: some cases, they just know when they were last seen alive, 223 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: and it was years ago? Right? Where was months ago? 224 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: So this is almost a black box for these relatives 225 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: and these loved ones. So initial inquiries revealed that important 226 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: information had not been pursued, and so many families and 227 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: their supporters asked for the public release of these records 228 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: and called for full investigation. So when we say important 229 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: information and not been pursued, we're saying stuff like UM 230 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: an intelligence agency intercepts a radio transmission from Thailand that 231 00:15:54,120 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: details they the details they've cited UM work camp, you know, 232 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: with like eleven people who are clearly not Vietnamese Cambodian relation, 233 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: and that they're being held after the war is something. 234 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: But then the intelligence agency on the us I would say, well, 235 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: that's Thailand, you know what I mean, We're gonna trust 236 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: this foreign intercept or whatever. We just sit on it 237 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: because it's not it doesn't seem like it's pertinent to 238 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: any major investigation you're doing. Right then, right? And then also, 239 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: you know, there's a fair question like how do you 240 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: discern the bologne from the what's a better meat than bologne? 241 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: Thereso riso? You know, a good generous salami? Yeah okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. 242 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: How do you separate the Bolognai from the Thereso and 243 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: good Genoa Salami. It's tough. It's tough in the intelligence community. Yeah, 244 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: and you can't send people out to investigate every single one. 245 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: It's just not possible. I mean you can, you can 246 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: try your hardest, but it is a part of my 247 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: French here, it is it can sometimes be a no 248 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: win situation. Well, it's like you get bogged down in 249 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: this this idea that bureaucracy is inherently inefficient and massive 250 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: and you know, and a pain. And then he realized 251 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: that the only reason it exists is to manage the 252 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 1: massive and inefficient and painful, you know what I mean. 253 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: So it's like you can't really fault it every time 254 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: for not being able to be everything to everybody, right, 255 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: and and on that perspective too, it might be a 256 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,679 Speaker 1: damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, because 257 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 1: like think about it. So if okay, everybody listening, let's 258 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: say all of us are the CIA in the seventies 259 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 1: and eighties. Congratulations, We're sorry you had to find out 260 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 1: this way. So one of us gets one of us, 261 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: one group of US gets a report that says, all right, 262 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 1: foreign radio intercept has said that has identified you know, 263 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: a dozen people in a remote area being working in 264 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 1: forced agriculture. The question becomes as as we already being 265 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: a large organization, say like, okay, well, if we don't 266 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:13,159 Speaker 1: investigate this, and then there is a risk that we 267 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: will have we will have screwed up. But if we 268 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 1: do investigate this and we don't find anything, then we 269 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: will be roasted over the coals for you know, frivolous 270 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:29,880 Speaker 1: government spending or something. Or since you know, listeners, you 271 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 1: and Matt Noel and I are now part of this 272 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: fictional CIA or Another thing is if we delve into this, 273 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: is it going to interfere with other active operations that 274 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 1: we have in the area. Yeah. Well, and here here's 275 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: the craziest part. This idea that the government isn't doing 276 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:53,199 Speaker 1: everything it can do to get the loved ones of 277 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: these people back. That is a polarizing concept and that 278 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 1: if you latch on to that, let's say, as a 279 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: politician in the public sector, then you're you're gonna get 280 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: some votes from a good number of people if you're 281 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: championing this idea that the government is not doing everything 282 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: it can do, or even like a faction of the 283 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 1: government because of certain leanings. Maybe even you can kind 284 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 1: of characterize it as a political issue rather than just 285 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: a matter of unmanageable situations. You know. Well, and it 286 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: doesn't even matter if you, uh, the person running truly 287 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: believes there, right, Yeah, unfortunately, I mean that's the rule 288 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: with a lot of political stuff, you know. And and 289 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 1: this is this is an issue that UM, this is 290 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: an issue that politicians have investigated or advocated on any 291 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: political strike. Ross Perrow was very big into UM trying 292 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: to discover the truth behind this and did believe that 293 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,959 Speaker 1: there were people left behind an abandoned uh. John Kerry, 294 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: John McCain, George H. W. Bush like it. It goes 295 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 1: across the spectrum. And George H. W. Bush was c 296 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 1: i A at least for a time. Yes, is anybody 297 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: do you ever become not c I A. We've had 298 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 1: this discussion before. I think you're right. You are always 299 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 1: like at least in the club, I feel like you 300 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: have to be. You've got information if you've been in 301 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: the CIA that we we can't let you into the 302 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: wrong hands. It's like being the president. Maybe when the 303 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 1: president and you're referred to as they don't really call 304 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: you the former president. Do they they call you the president? 305 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 1: Mr Presidents And yeah, yeah, people don't call you Jimmy anymore. People, 306 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,719 Speaker 1: something happens to you. You you become someone else entirely 307 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: in your mind, is not your own. It's true, man. 308 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 1: And have you've seen those before and after pictures of 309 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 1: every president since the invention of photography? That's it will 310 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: wear you down, Actually, the black and white ones where 311 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: the bags under the eyes are so incredible, just like pools. 312 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: It's crazy. Man. Well, um, while we're on this subject, 313 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: we do have to examine this because this didn't just 314 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 1: stop in the in the seventies. This didn't just stop, um, 315 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 1: like with a hard stop and a couple of investigations. 316 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: This we're on and on and on, and they're tantalizing 317 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: hints two different parts of this story. And we're going 318 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 1: to give you a few after a word from our sponsors, 319 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: let's begin looking at a few examples here. The first 320 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: one comes from nineteen seventy nine. The gentleman whose name 321 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:48,679 Speaker 1: is Bobby Garwood, Private Bobby Garwood. He returned to the 322 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 1: United States and seventy nine after fourteen years living as 323 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 1: a prisoner of war. Now he says he he says, 324 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 1: claims that he was one of many soldiers still being 325 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,439 Speaker 1: held in viet M and several other countries in the 326 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:07,679 Speaker 1: Jason area like you said Van Laos, several others um so. 327 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 1: The United States denied these allegations, and furthermore, they claimed 328 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: that Garwood was actually a collaborator. He was in on 329 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: the whole thing. He wasn't a prisoner, that he went 330 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: over the hill and turned coat. Right. He was reportedly 331 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 1: released in nineteen seventy three with some other American POWs, 332 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 1: but he did not return to the United States until 333 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 1: March twenty second, nineteen seventy nine. During that time, he 334 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 1: was listed as either having volunteered or been forced into 335 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: a work group repairing a generator at a re education camp. 336 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: Other reports described him as working in Island Fortress or 337 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: being a driver and vehicle mechanic whoa. When he gets 338 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 1: back in seventy nine, over a period of eleven months, 339 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: he faces a general court martial at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, 340 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 1: because other Marines testified like other not just marines, other 341 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 1: service members testified seeing him in action with VC with 342 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: via Kong so he Uh. He was found not guilty 343 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: of desertion or solicitation of U S troops in the 344 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 1: field to defect or maltreatment U He was convicted in 345 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: one of communicating with the enemy and the assault of 346 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: an American pow at a camp, and that violates the 347 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: Uniform Code of Military Justice. He was The court martial 348 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,400 Speaker 1: sentenced him the reduction to a private, forfeiture of all 349 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: pay and allowances, dishonorable discharge, but he was not confined. 350 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: He appealed his conviction was upheld. Robert Garwood says that 351 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: he saw other American POWs after nineteen seventy three, and 352 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,159 Speaker 1: he insists that he himself had been a prisoner for 353 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: fourteen years. UM Many of the POWs who claimed have 354 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: seen him collaborated with the enemy also feel he should 355 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: not have been and court martial, because that's the thing, 356 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:06,160 Speaker 1: you know, it's if he is if he was imprisoned, 357 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: and which is a story that the American public will 358 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: probably never know him full. If it was imprisoned, was 359 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 1: he forced to cooperate or did he choose to You know, 360 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: it gets it gets sticky, sou so according to this guy, 361 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 1: and according to the people who believe that there were 362 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 1: purposefully abandoned POWs or service members uh in in country 363 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: after seventy three. This guy has been silenced because he's 364 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 1: telling the truth. But to other people, two critics of 365 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: that belief, he is trying to cover his own you know, 366 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: cover his own high courts, which at this point you 367 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: can you can easily go down a rabbit hole of 368 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 1: who said what and what happened where, But the facts remain. 369 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: He was not convicted of collaborating with the enemy. Then 370 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 1: we have an investigation led by John Kerry in Senator 371 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,919 Speaker 1: Kerry Um was the head of a select committee investigation 372 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:16,400 Speaker 1: into the intelligence services process um searching for remaining POWs 373 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 1: in Vietnam. There were two former Defense secretaries, Melvin Laird 374 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: and James Schlessinger, who said the Nixon administration most definitely 375 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,199 Speaker 1: knew that there were still POWs in Vietnam after the 376 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:35,199 Speaker 1: close of Operation Homecoming. The investigation also revealed that thousands 377 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: of files from the n s A on missing soldiers 378 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 1: which were written during the war, were completely ignored by 379 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: intelligence services after the war. Um and then after two 380 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 1: years the Kerry Committee came to the conclusion that there 381 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,199 Speaker 1: was no compelling evidence that any American soldiers were still 382 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 1: being held Um, not just in Vietnam, but in any 383 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: Southeast Asian countries, felt that this was definitively the case 384 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,439 Speaker 1: Um And then a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, Sydney Schoenberg, 385 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 1: accused the committee of assisting in a government cover up. 386 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 1: And I mean, if you kind of have a government 387 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 1: cover up, what better smoke screen for than a you know, 388 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 1: tireless investigation that supposedly puts all of these concerns too bad. 389 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 1: Just like Jeff k assassination, just like the nine eleven Commission, 390 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 1: we got a way of something around for the public 391 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: to latch onto and say, oh no, no, it's fine. 392 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: See see see look at all this paper. These are 393 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: very long names. Yes, and I know that sounds flippants, 394 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 1: but for people who were opponents of that investigation or 395 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: thought it was a cover up, this was. It was 396 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: exactly the same kind of tactic, right, And it's very 397 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: important to say that what we're doing is exploring the 398 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: differing views of this side. We're not casting aspersion on 399 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: any service member or the government official. We're just telling 400 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: you where these people stand on what they say and 401 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: where they disagree. And the people who said like that 402 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: this was a cover up. These were not fringe members 403 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: of society, you know, as an old said Politzer Prize 404 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: winning journalists, this became an increasingly common belief. It was 405 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 1: a very unpopular war. People were at people were at 406 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: odds on all sorts of levels, and distrust of the 407 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: government was very high. So of course it seems like 408 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: something that would happen, you know, and that one of 409 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 1: the big questions would be, well, what is the motivation? 410 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 1: And so when the official narrative came came down, and 411 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:48,640 Speaker 1: you know, veterans like John Kerry veteran, right, John McCain, veterans, 412 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: these these um former military members who were serving in 413 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 1: federal government came back and said, you know, we gave 414 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: it our best shot, and we tried to figure out 415 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: what was going on, and this is what we found. 416 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: Even then, people wouldn't believe the whole story. They felt 417 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: like this was all spoken mirrors. And this got another, um, 418 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 1: I guess, another dose of high octing conspiratorial fuel just 419 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 1: uh like during the during the investigation in the belief 420 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 1: that they were abandoned soldiers or remaining POW's got a 421 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: new burst of high acting conspiratorial fuel. At a summit 422 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: June Boris Yeltson was talking to NBC News and this 423 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: was reported by the New York Times, and apparently he 424 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: said that some Americans captured during the Vietnam War were 425 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: apparently transferred from Hannoi to labor camps in the Soviet Union, 426 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: and he added that some of them may still be 427 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 1: alive at that time, possibly in psychiatric hospitals. Ladies and gentlemen, 428 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: we have a clip from that conversation. Yes, NBC, what 429 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 1: do you want, Yes, Mr Yelson. For years that have 430 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: been rooms in the United States that American POWs from 431 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: the Vietnam War would transferred from Vietnam to the Soviet Union. 432 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: Do you know that to be true? Now archives have 433 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: shown that it is true. Some of them were transferred 434 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: to the territory of the former USSRUH, some were kept 435 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: in labor games. Yeah, we don't have a complete data, 436 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: and we can only surmise that some may still be alive. 437 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: That is a bomb drop right in the in the 438 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: American public, in the heart of the American consciousness, which 439 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 1: that anatomy metaphor doesn't check out. So don't think about 440 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: it too much. But we do want to say to 441 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: have to have a diplomat like there are at the 442 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: time as the Prime minister at the high level for 443 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: an official, yeah, to have have to say this was 444 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: during glassmost so kind of a peace offer into Um, 445 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 1: I do want to win everybody out there listening to 446 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:09,479 Speaker 1: know that we had a very in depth conversation about 447 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: who should do the exit. That's why I was trying 448 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: not to crack up. But um, you you guys would 449 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: make great re enactors, you know, you know, maybe maybe 450 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: we should get into re enactments. Oh man s at 451 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: the end, Johnny dangerous strick. So yes, who would these 452 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: soldiers have been? This is a strange thing. And I 453 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: followed up offline with some military sources to ask about this, 454 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 1: and it's people who would asked not to be identified 455 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: on the show. So the people I spoke with believe 456 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: that the US probably did leave some people behind, but 457 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: not not on purpose, like not as a institutional thing. 458 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: Like you don't get elected president and then someone gives 459 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: you an envelope and says, never ask about these missing 460 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: six people or something. What they said happened is that 461 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: anybody taken to the U s s R. Who was 462 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: captured would have to be a high value intelligence agent 463 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: of some sort, So maybe a company man from the CIA, 464 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: maybe military naval intelligence, because otherwise what what would be 465 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: the use of that expensive and dangerous transport, you know, 466 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: And they would probably take them by boat instead of 467 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: by plane, because if a boat goes down, there's a 468 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: lot less evidence than if a plane goes down. I 469 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:39,479 Speaker 1: can imagine it being a an implanted agent, maybe even 470 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 1: so specifically was captured to be taken there if possible. 471 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: I know that sounds insane, It sounds like something even 472 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: that would never happen. But I can imagine it being 473 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: like something that happens a set up turn coat in 474 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: some way, or you know what I mean, like a 475 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: double agent. Yeah, And it's it's tough to know. It's 476 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 1: tough to know where someone's real allegiances lie or if 477 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: they have real allegiances. Is that a double double cross? 478 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: Many crosses are being doubled there? Yeah, is the quadruple across, 479 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: triple across, the quadruple across. I guess it just depends 480 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: on when you want to stop or when they stopped 481 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: believing theoretically go on crossing indefinitely and just be like 482 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: the most this the most untrustworthy person you can only 483 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: I think, I think eventually they're just getting get tired 484 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: of it, um, which would be very dangerous. But you know, 485 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: a lot of times these people, if so, we know 486 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: it's probably a small percentage of the missing people, but 487 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 1: of that small percentage went there, um, their lives very 488 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: well could have been a living hell, you know what 489 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 1: I mean, especially if they possess secrets that exist only 490 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: in their in their minds, the private secrets of one 491 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: of the world's great superpowers. That's a very dangerous collection 492 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: of thoughts to have ownership over. And because of questions 493 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: like this, right because Boris Yelson admits that there were 494 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: people spirited away, because they're continual or there they're numerous 495 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 1: radio intercepts saying, oh, we've seen people living, or there 496 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: are people in country who say, oh, I've seen this 497 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: guy is not Vietnamese. Why is he living in this cave? 498 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: You know, with these ripped up clothes, And also to 499 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 1: a degree in cultural consciousness because of you know, the 500 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 1: stories of World War Two survivors, especially in the Japanese army, 501 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: who were living as though the war had never ended, 502 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: and in some cases didn't know it had. Because of 503 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: all these cases it seems not impossible that there could 504 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: have been people left behind, whether purposely or accidentally, or 505 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: whether it's bonds anyone's control. But several of the privately 506 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: funded expeditions by veterans loved one survivors um several of 507 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: those expeditions got dogged by accusations of fraud. People would say, well, 508 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: the government, being this big, inefficient bureaucracy, is not going 509 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 1: to be able to effectively do this, or they don't 510 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: care because what is one human life and the great 511 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 1: abattoir of geopolitics. So with the best of intentions, people 512 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: got together and said, we're going to go find this, 513 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 1: and we're going to search either for following up on 514 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: evidence of living people or following up on evidence of remains. 515 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 1: And not in all cases, but in many cases you 516 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: would see stories of someone accepting a bunch of money 517 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: buying a boat and the boat never left the dock 518 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:57,800 Speaker 1: and Thailand and they were beguiling people, They were conning 519 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: them with the worst thing. It reminds me of our 520 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: conversation we had had before about people who claimed to 521 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: contact the dead on behalf of the living. You know, 522 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: are they are they just exploiting people sometimes or do 523 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: they really believe it. No, this is not to say, 524 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen, that these missions were not genuine. Many were, 525 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 1: and there are people who claimed that they that they 526 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: found evidence of recent survivors. But just for perspective, let's 527 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: talk about a fairly recent hopes. That's right, the John 528 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 1: Hartley hoax. UM in a documentary portrayed a man claiming 529 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,359 Speaker 1: to be the missing assumed dead soldier by the name 530 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 1: of John Hartley robertson Um. And in the film, this 531 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: person met with surviving family members and convinced them he 532 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 1: was their relative. Later DNA test revealed that this was 533 00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 1: not the case. And so this points to an you 534 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,439 Speaker 1: that potentially could have come from a lot of these 535 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:10,280 Speaker 1: things that we're talking about is folks bilking relatives supposed 536 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,879 Speaker 1: long lost relatives, whether out of money or support in 537 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: some way. UH. And nowadays, with you know, crowdsourcing, crowdfunding, 538 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: that's a lot easier to do than it used to be, 539 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,240 Speaker 1: and it's also a lot easier to find potential marks 540 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 1: for this type of activity. If you want to know 541 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: more about that documentaries specifically about John Hartley. UH, it 542 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:37,280 Speaker 1: is called unclaimed. It's pretty great. I remember seeing trailer 543 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 1: for it not long ago and getting interested in it. 544 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: It's I think when I saw it, Um, when it 545 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: came out, I would recommend it. It's a fascinating, intriguing 546 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: story that looks at what happens when family members are 547 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,280 Speaker 1: given this chance to reconnect with someone who they think 548 00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 1: is a long lost loved one, but then it turned 549 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,319 Speaker 1: out to be a nightmare. And it's one of those 550 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: things too, where put yourself in the position of a 551 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,880 Speaker 1: family member like that, where someone who is for all 552 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: intents and purpose, has been dead to you for years, 553 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: you're given what you see as a second chance. I mean, 554 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: who among us wouldn't maybe be a little blindsided by 555 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 1: that to to to to a point where maybe you 556 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 1: might not have your wits about you. It's a pretty 557 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: horrible thing to take advantage of someone's vulnerability like that. Well, guys, 558 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,439 Speaker 1: I think one thing that plays in just about all 559 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 1: of this discussion is the myriad ways that in a 560 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 1: war zone situation people can and will be ultimately left behind. 561 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: There's a lot of conditions, a lot of variables at play. 562 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 1: It's some scary stuff, Um, and I think we should 563 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: talk about some of that stuff. But first let's take 564 00:37:49,520 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: a quick sponsor break. So, yeah, you know, you're right. 565 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: One thing is for sure. A lot of people ended 566 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: up missing. A lot of American soldiers ended up missing 567 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: during the Vietnam conflict during the war, um, and for 568 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 1: very variety of reasons, a whole bunch of reasons. So 569 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: let's look at the most likely possibilities. One is that 570 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: some men were killed. They're killed in action and then 571 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:27,840 Speaker 1: their bodies are either burned or disposed of somehow by 572 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 1: the enemy by in this case of viet Cong, and 573 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 1: they will never be found ever, probably unless you know, 574 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,800 Speaker 1: a big excavation occurs, uh in the jungle somewhere buried 575 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,399 Speaker 1: in unmarked graves, right, yep, buried, burned, I mean, they're 576 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:45,279 Speaker 1: all kinds of reasons. Grilla forces often wouldn't have the 577 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,880 Speaker 1: capability to transport a hostage or the desire, and this 578 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: this is why death is killed in action or KIA 579 00:38:53,840 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: is the most prominent possibility. Unfortunately, and even more unfortunately, 580 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 1: we can't know how many of these people still missing 581 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 1: are in fact, you know, expired or died in this way. 582 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: Another possibility is that they deserted, and there are very 583 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 1: strange stories here. Um. Some return to the United States 584 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 1: under false pretenses or false identities. So the Matt Frederick 585 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 1: who shipped off for comes back with the new identity, 586 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 1: which is what would your fake idb oh Enrique Iglesia, Riglesia, 587 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: I like is a subtle I would just be Esteban, Esteban. 588 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:45,760 Speaker 1: It's nice with the with the accent mark over it. No, oh, 589 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 1: there's a story to Esteban. No with within question mark. Sure, 590 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,319 Speaker 1: And I of course would be Max Powers. Comma asked her. 591 00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 1: Not with the secret that's you know, blends in. But 592 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 1: some others escaped to nearby countries like Australia, right or 593 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 1: or a different neighboring country, or went to Canada, and 594 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:13,839 Speaker 1: some indeed found homes inside Vietnam. This means that there 595 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: is a possibility, of very small possibility, that some former 596 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: soldiers living in Southeast Asia simply don't want to be found. 597 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,839 Speaker 1: And we have to consider how much time has passed now, right, Uh, 598 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 1: so these people would be on the older end of 599 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: the human spectrum. There's one example of how things kind 600 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 1: of go off the rails and this and that's a 601 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,399 Speaker 1: Vietnam era legend that we learned about in the course 602 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 1: of our research. It's a place called Soul City. This rumor, 603 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,920 Speaker 1: this was rumored to be a district in suburban Saigon 604 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:53,520 Speaker 1: that was the domain of many US deserters, mainly African American, 605 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 1: and that they became a drug a drug empire essentially 606 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:07,879 Speaker 1: running heroin, racketeerian weapons, prostitution, and it was an enclave. Officially, 607 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 1: this has not been confirmed, so we we can't speak 608 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:13,880 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know about you guys, but I 609 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 1: was not in Vietnam, so we can't speak to the 610 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:22,480 Speaker 1: veracity of that. If anyone listening has firsthand experience or 611 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 1: can confirm it, we would like to hear about not 612 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 1: just that, but other enclaves if they were around. Yes, yes, 613 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,720 Speaker 1: and there's and and also to what degree this stuff 614 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,360 Speaker 1: was true, was it actually how big, was it actually 615 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,400 Speaker 1: if it existed, or was it just a couple of 616 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:45,279 Speaker 1: people who were entrepreneurs. And there's another A lot of 617 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 1: the reality here is unfortunate. When Saigon fell on April 618 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five, North Vietnamese forces swept through the country 619 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 1: and through other cities like wildfire, and they did not 620 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:04,879 Speaker 1: take prisoners. Did they find deserters, probably most likely were 621 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:11,759 Speaker 1: they friendly to those deserters, probably not, so this would 622 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: have ended some of those some of those UM communities, 623 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:23,719 Speaker 1: those you know, even more secret communities, And this leads 624 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 1: us to our conclusion. The current US position is that 625 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:33,400 Speaker 1: there were no purposely abandoned soldiers, and efforts to locate 626 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,799 Speaker 1: the remains of those who died in country continue with 627 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: full international support today, so support from the Laoisian, Cambodian 628 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 1: and Vietnam and Vietnamese government. Now there's something to consider here, guys. 629 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 1: We haven't we kind of touched on, but not really. 630 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:56,879 Speaker 1: What about the missions that only what how many people 631 00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 1: would know at the top of the CIA if it 632 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,319 Speaker 1: was a secret mission and like compartmentalized intelligence, Yeah, I 633 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,360 Speaker 1: mean a handful of human beings would know if there 634 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,840 Speaker 1: are secret missions going on. And you can almost guarantee 635 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:13,759 Speaker 1: that this was occurring during wartime. There the CIA is 636 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,320 Speaker 1: going to be having special operations that nobody knows about, 637 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 1: the black black bag, black black ops. And this doesn't 638 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 1: have to just be UM. This doesn't just have to 639 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:35,239 Speaker 1: be the CIA's involvement. This could also be naval and 640 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:42,319 Speaker 1: military intelligence right deep cover stuff or deep incursions. And 641 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:47,440 Speaker 1: also let's consider how many other popular conspiracy theories this 642 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,480 Speaker 1: is touching on, which would be what if some of 643 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 1: those missions involved drug trafficking to finance something illegal that 644 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: needed plausible deniability. So we were also talking off air. 645 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:08,160 Speaker 1: UM Noah, a marine who now works in I T 646 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:12,200 Speaker 1: did not have experience in Vietnam, but brought up a 647 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,760 Speaker 1: very interesting point that I had not considered there. When 648 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:20,600 Speaker 1: I asked this marine about the likelihood, I wanted to 649 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:25,360 Speaker 1: hear what service members thought of the likelihood of purposefully 650 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:35,840 Speaker 1: abandoned POWs rama's, and this marine said that they totally 651 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:40,200 Speaker 1: believe it could happen, and that we should also look 652 00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:44,920 Speaker 1: into the current assets of the U. S military around 653 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:49,160 Speaker 1: the world, estimated as a to be in one and 654 00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:53,240 Speaker 1: thirty five countries in some capacity, who are all sort 655 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:58,400 Speaker 1: of unnamed assets, you know, uh, functioning and in g 656 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:03,080 Speaker 1: O or in a consular position, who if the if 657 00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:06,120 Speaker 1: their cover gets blown, have to provide their own exit 658 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:10,320 Speaker 1: strategy and they do not you know, they do not exist, 659 00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 1: Um yeah, And would they? Would those people be counted 660 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:18,799 Speaker 1: in those numbers? Right? That's that's a crucial question. And 661 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:24,680 Speaker 1: then there's there's another question that we kind of talked about, 662 00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:31,040 Speaker 1: uh off air, which is sort of motivation. Right, Well, 663 00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:33,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know. In all this, I've been 664 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,920 Speaker 1: wondering what you guys think would be the most compelling 665 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:40,080 Speaker 1: reason that the US government would a purposefully leave their 666 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:43,839 Speaker 1: own troops behind and then be trying to cover up. 667 00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 1: And I I guess the cover up is inherent in doing 668 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,279 Speaker 1: the bad thing, So maybe we can skip too. But why, 669 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:54,200 Speaker 1: what's to what end? But we're talking six separate presidential administrations, right, 670 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,319 Speaker 1: and that's the very definition of a of a conspiracy. 671 00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:01,359 Speaker 1: Or it could just be deep state cover up. But why, yeah, 672 00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,520 Speaker 1: what's the motivation? That's I could I could imagine a 673 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,920 Speaker 1: couple of things. So in the short term, in the 674 00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,880 Speaker 1: short game, if there's a desire for political leverage and 675 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,520 Speaker 1: post war negotiations, then that could have occurred. But the 676 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:21,520 Speaker 1: Paris Peace Accords had explicitly contained a framework for resolving 677 00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:26,560 Speaker 1: POW situations for the U. S side, then it's quite 678 00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:30,840 Speaker 1: possible that and there were things that would put that 679 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,000 Speaker 1: would make Uncle Sam's hands too dirty, and then they 680 00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:38,200 Speaker 1: war crimes and that they cut they cut these people loose, 681 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,759 Speaker 1: or they just didn't look into it very deeply. And 682 00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,680 Speaker 1: you know, we're talking a lot about We're talking a 683 00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:51,760 Speaker 1: lot about very murky, very questionable things on both sides, 684 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,000 Speaker 1: especially if there are people who are alive, who are 685 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:59,080 Speaker 1: who were held and rendered invisible to history. That's a 686 00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:02,359 Speaker 1: very dangerous thing, and it can happen moriasily than people think. 687 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:04,880 Speaker 1: It's not just something that happened under the reign of Stalin. 688 00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:11,360 Speaker 1: It can happen today. Two people, um and two and 689 00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:16,440 Speaker 1: and honestly for not just the black bag operative types 690 00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:19,960 Speaker 1: uh In in the U. S. Army, but for anyone 691 00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:24,279 Speaker 1: whom I have died or been captured or disappeared from 692 00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:27,960 Speaker 1: the official narrative history to these unnamed heroic women and 693 00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,520 Speaker 1: men across the planet in every nation. We do hope 694 00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:36,120 Speaker 1: you and your loved ones find peace, because often these 695 00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,520 Speaker 1: people are used as pollens, and I think that could 696 00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:45,000 Speaker 1: be a motivation. Are you guys familiar with the Mali massacre? Unfortunately? Yeah, 697 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:49,320 Speaker 1: I mean so there was actually a uh task force 698 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,880 Speaker 1: I guess you could say, established the Vietnam War Crimes 699 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:56,080 Speaker 1: Working Group in the wake of photographic evidence of what 700 00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:58,960 Speaker 1: was thought to be a massacre of women and children. 701 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:01,719 Speaker 1: It's the kind of thing you see depicted in some 702 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,920 Speaker 1: of these films. We were talking about like in a platoon, 703 00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:07,200 Speaker 1: there's a sequence where some of this goes down and 704 00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:12,719 Speaker 1: also in um uh apocalypse now umsimically in platoon though, 705 00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,640 Speaker 1: But anyhow, uh, you know, and the purpose of this 706 00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:23,400 Speaker 1: group was to investigate emerging claims of war crimes by 707 00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:29,200 Speaker 1: US military during Vietnam. And you know, if there was 708 00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:34,960 Speaker 1: a reason to perhaps let some people stay lost, maybe 709 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,279 Speaker 1: some folks saw some things and could have corroborated some 710 00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,279 Speaker 1: things and had some attacks of conscience that would have 711 00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:43,600 Speaker 1: maybe made Uncle Sam, as you said, Ben have a 712 00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:46,120 Speaker 1: little bit more blood on their hands than they wanted. 713 00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,440 Speaker 1: And politically, you know, that could have been bad. It 714 00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,400 Speaker 1: was a very unpopular war. We were there for a 715 00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:54,080 Speaker 1: very very long time, far longer than we intended to be, 716 00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:57,080 Speaker 1: and we lost a lot of people, and you know, 717 00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:00,799 Speaker 1: it was just a very unpopular a place to be 718 00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:03,560 Speaker 1: and you know, there's a lot of clean up that 719 00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:06,359 Speaker 1: had to be done in order to kind of wash 720 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:08,640 Speaker 1: our hands of some of that. And you know, this 721 00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,120 Speaker 1: kind of stuff, these kind of stories not exactly helping 722 00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:16,239 Speaker 1: with the pr narrative, right right, well said, And to 723 00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:19,799 Speaker 1: Matt's point, you know, this doesn't have to be an 724 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:26,640 Speaker 1: entire government. This could be compartmentalized intelligence, deep state. You know, 725 00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:31,799 Speaker 1: it's it's distressing, but at certain levels, at certain institutions, 726 00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:36,239 Speaker 1: it only takes a few people to keep powerful secrets. 727 00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:39,279 Speaker 1: So it's more again of a black box. And we 728 00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,920 Speaker 1: could be in a situation where hundreds of thousands of 729 00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:47,320 Speaker 1: people are doing their level best. Like the Army has 730 00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,520 Speaker 1: special branches that go out into that part of the 731 00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:54,520 Speaker 1: world every year with full cooperation to find remains, and 732 00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:58,320 Speaker 1: they find them. That's the thing. They're They're still finding bodies. 733 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:05,040 Speaker 1: What the question is that somebody else obstructed? So do 734 00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,040 Speaker 1: our presidents aware of it? Because um, the Barack Obama 735 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:14,680 Speaker 1: administration also pressed for further cooperation investigating entities am I 736 00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:20,000 Speaker 1: A cases uh during a during another summit, so within 737 00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:25,879 Speaker 1: recent years and at president seems some probably did die 738 00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:31,200 Speaker 1: in combat, some probably did dessert, and some are probably 739 00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:36,040 Speaker 1: living or have lived under assumed identity, under assumed identities 740 00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:40,920 Speaker 1: in somewhere in the world. Many of those in that 741 00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:46,400 Speaker 1: third group may have already died of natural causes, living 742 00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:50,200 Speaker 1: an entirely different life from the one they left behind 743 00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:54,680 Speaker 1: in the jungle. As for the prisoners, no matter how 744 00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:58,359 Speaker 1: much we go back and forth, we may never know 745 00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:02,480 Speaker 1: for sure. You can go and find a wealth of 746 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:07,319 Speaker 1: live sightings, a wealth of people insisting they've done this. 747 00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:13,200 Speaker 1: But Bobby Garwood was a controversial returning figure. And UH 748 00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:18,799 Speaker 1: the case that we mentioned earlier, the Hartley hoax, it 749 00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:21,080 Speaker 1: did turn out to be a hoax. The DNA didn't match. 750 00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:26,919 Speaker 1: UM have added fuel to both camps, the people who 751 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:29,480 Speaker 1: believe that they were abandoned POWs and the people who 752 00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:33,160 Speaker 1: believe that they were not. And so we close our 753 00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:37,279 Speaker 1: episode today. We want to hear from you what is 754 00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:40,200 Speaker 1: what in your experience is plausible here? Is it? Is 755 00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:44,880 Speaker 1: it possible that the US cut operation cut servicemen and 756 00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:49,240 Speaker 1: operator operators loose to preserve what was seen as greater 757 00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:54,160 Speaker 1: stability at the time. Is this conspiracy theory that people 758 00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:58,640 Speaker 1: are milking for political gain? Um, And yes, we have 759 00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:01,600 Speaker 1: not touched on any of the other Vietnam or Lady conspiracies. 760 00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:04,799 Speaker 1: The legends of real life Colonel Kurtz is allah heart 761 00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:08,440 Speaker 1: of darkness. Apocalypse now the effects of Agent Orange and 762 00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:12,040 Speaker 1: more so right to us and let us know what 763 00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:14,440 Speaker 1: we should cover. If you do want to write to us, 764 00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,919 Speaker 1: you can find us on Facebook where we are conspiracy 765 00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:20,839 Speaker 1: stuff or on Twitter also Conspiracy Stuff. You can find 766 00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:24,680 Speaker 1: us on Instagram Conspiracy Stuff Show. And if you don't 767 00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:28,360 Speaker 1: like that stuff, you can always send us an email. Uh, 768 00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,640 Speaker 1: but we'll we'll tell you how to do that later. Yes, yes, 769 00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:38,319 Speaker 1: First it's time for shut ut Corner. Our first shout 770 00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:42,200 Speaker 1: out comes from Carlton. Carlton says, in your recent episode 771 00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:44,600 Speaker 1: you mentioned g and I have a quick and dirty 772 00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:48,840 Speaker 1: way for pretty much anyone to feel it dirty. You say, yeah, 773 00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:53,880 Speaker 1: so dirty, Thank you, Carlton. Uh. Carlton says, First, you 774 00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:56,640 Speaker 1: should sit upright or stand Okay, I'm gonna do this 775 00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:59,920 Speaker 1: as I say it, all right, with both feet pointed 776 00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:04,640 Speaker 1: straight out forward at your shoulders length. Okay. Second, you 777 00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,720 Speaker 1: need to reach out your hands and palms facing towards 778 00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:11,000 Speaker 1: each other. So palms facing each other, hands out. The 779 00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:13,719 Speaker 1: elbow should be bent at about forty five degrees, so 780 00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:19,399 Speaker 1: there's ninety let's do. Now. Your fingers should form a 781 00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:23,560 Speaker 1: claw pointed to each other. Then you close your eyes, 782 00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:28,720 Speaker 1: calm your breath, and slowly close the space in between 783 00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:33,759 Speaker 1: your hands, as if you're holding an imaginary apple sized sphere. Now, 784 00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:36,960 Speaker 1: if you're calm enough, you will feel that your fingertips 785 00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:41,239 Speaker 1: already felt pressure, but not because of direct contact. If 786 00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:44,280 Speaker 1: you reach this step, then you can move the entire 787 00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,440 Speaker 1: palm back and forth to experience an odd feeling similar 788 00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:52,479 Speaker 1: to the repellent force of two magnets. It almost sounds 789 00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:55,600 Speaker 1: like you're starting at Kama maya or you know, a 790 00:53:55,640 --> 00:54:00,640 Speaker 1: fireball can style? Yeah, how do you can style? That's 791 00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,960 Speaker 1: really cool. It's interesting because it ties into the one 792 00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:09,080 Speaker 1: of the largely unacknowledged senses of the human body, proper reception, right, 793 00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:13,480 Speaker 1: the sense of where your limbs are in space when 794 00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:15,839 Speaker 1: you're not looking at them. And I got up and 795 00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:18,000 Speaker 1: tried it. I think I'm gonna have to do it 796 00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:21,960 Speaker 1: when I'm not shotgunning so much coffee. Yeah, and you 797 00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:24,480 Speaker 1: know we're recording a podcast, but thank you, Carlton, we 798 00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:28,080 Speaker 1: have that now. Now you have that, you the listener 799 00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:31,120 Speaker 1: of this voice, and uh, let's all try it together 800 00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:34,359 Speaker 1: sometime or at least separately, and then come back and yeah, 801 00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:37,040 Speaker 1: let's try and write to us and let us know. Everybody, 802 00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:42,080 Speaker 1: give everybody give Carlton's technique a shot and let us 803 00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:44,080 Speaker 1: know how it works out for you. I'm gonna try 804 00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:47,160 Speaker 1: it some more later when we're off air. Our second 805 00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,920 Speaker 1: shout out today comes from Andrew. Andrew says, hi, guys, 806 00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:52,600 Speaker 1: I think that the I think the conspiracy that the 807 00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:58,000 Speaker 1: Russian version of nine eleven Russian apartment bombings was really 808 00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:02,280 Speaker 1: a false flag operation or irustrated by and for Putin. 809 00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:05,279 Speaker 1: That's Vladimir Putin to rise to power, and that would 810 00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:07,439 Speaker 1: make for a really great podcast and a timely when 811 00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:10,800 Speaker 1: given all the talk about Russia and Putin these days. Anyhow, 812 00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:15,560 Speaker 1: keep up the good work. That is crazy. By the way, 813 00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:19,279 Speaker 1: I didn't know anything about this until Andrew wrote to us, 814 00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:21,600 Speaker 1: and I just did some quick searching on the subject 815 00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:23,759 Speaker 1: to see what it was all about. I've never heard 816 00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:27,600 Speaker 1: of it. It's I think three separate cities that got bombed, 817 00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:32,120 Speaker 1: like four apartment complexes or more, all around the same time, 818 00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:36,600 Speaker 1: and it was all blamed on certain groups and it 819 00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:39,840 Speaker 1: started groups. Yeah, and it started the Chech another Chechen 820 00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:44,320 Speaker 1: in conflict. And apparently it really, it really did help 821 00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:50,919 Speaker 1: rise Putin to power, or at least somewhat. I yeah, 822 00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:54,200 Speaker 1: we'll have to look into that. Finally, we have a 823 00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:58,600 Speaker 1: shout out from Philip up Philippe up Um either either 824 00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:01,880 Speaker 1: one of those not either one of the two, probably, 825 00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:03,919 Speaker 1: but I'm throwing them both out there just to cover 826 00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:07,720 Speaker 1: my basis. Um, my husband isn't what you'd call psychic, 827 00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:11,440 Speaker 1: but his gut feelings are correct. Well, that's what I 828 00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:15,400 Speaker 1: would call psychic. But that's pretty cool. Uh. He also 829 00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:17,480 Speaker 1: has an annoying habit of knowing what I'm going to 830 00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:20,400 Speaker 1: say before I say it, even if it's totally off topic, 831 00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:24,840 Speaker 1: and he can predict who he'll see that day. He 832 00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:27,719 Speaker 1: works in a record shop, and if he hasn't seen 833 00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:30,600 Speaker 1: a regular customer for a while, he'll usually know before 834 00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:33,120 Speaker 1: he starts work that they will come by that day. 835 00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:36,799 Speaker 1: He also has a ghost who follows him around. Yeah, 836 00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:39,040 Speaker 1: that's what it says here, a ghost who follows him around, 837 00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:43,480 Speaker 1: and numerous people have seen weird stuff happen when they've 838 00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:47,200 Speaker 1: been with him. Well, here's to keeping it, keeping it interesting, 839 00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:51,080 Speaker 1: keeping it fresh and weird in your relationship. Uh. It 840 00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:53,760 Speaker 1: sounds like an interesting guy. And I would love to 841 00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:59,240 Speaker 1: hear more if anyone has clairvoyant partners out there, Um, 842 00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:05,680 Speaker 1: much more than just finishing each other's sandwiches. And we 843 00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:08,120 Speaker 1: want to hear about that kind of stuff because I 844 00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:12,000 Speaker 1: don't know anyone like that. I often, Um, I think 845 00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:14,439 Speaker 1: I know what my girlfriend's about to say, and uh 846 00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:17,920 Speaker 1: and and stumble into trying to to say it for her, 847 00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:21,040 Speaker 1: and she usually just shoots me a dirty look because 848 00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:23,720 Speaker 1: I'm wrong and it's rude. Yeah, it turns into you 849 00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:27,040 Speaker 1: trying to man splain something exactly her own thoughts. I'm 850 00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:31,840 Speaker 1: also interested to know, Philippa. Philip Philippa, I think I'm 851 00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:35,560 Speaker 1: also interested to know if your husband predicted that this 852 00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:41,160 Speaker 1: listener mail would be read out loud. Oh, I can 853 00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:46,240 Speaker 1: imagine it right now he wakes up, honey learned on 854 00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:53,800 Speaker 1: the podcast box Conspiracy talking about right now this moment. 855 00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:57,080 Speaker 1: That is not what Philip Philippa's husband sounds like. She 856 00:57:57,160 --> 00:58:00,120 Speaker 1: also but she says she's from rural southwest England, by 857 00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:02,520 Speaker 1: the way, and she says there was a wart charmer 858 00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:06,680 Speaker 1: in her neighborhood in her town. Wart charmer who could 859 00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:09,240 Speaker 1: charm the worts off you. Is that the same as 860 00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:12,000 Speaker 1: charming the pants off you? Exact same thing. That's a 861 00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:18,240 Speaker 1: pants charmer, I believe, not to split hairs or pants wards. Well, 862 00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:25,480 Speaker 1: this concludes our gosh, and this concludes our episode today, 863 00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:30,240 Speaker 1: but not hopefully knock on wood our show itself. We 864 00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:34,280 Speaker 1: will be back next week, What are we covering next week? 865 00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:35,600 Speaker 1: Do we have a little bit of a teaser we 866 00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:39,760 Speaker 1: could give people? Well, next week we're covering delicious, delicious 867 00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:48,600 Speaker 1: yet deadly deadly sugar m Yes. Well, now at first 868 00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:55,400 Speaker 1: it's it's like, yes, it's sickly sweet and there is 869 00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:59,880 Speaker 1: a conspiracy afoot, not a theory. If you would like 870 00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:03,440 Speaker 1: to know more, please tune in, and in the meantime, 871 00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:07,280 Speaker 1: go easy on the sodas just in case you don't 872 00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:10,600 Speaker 1: want anyone to be listening to a hospital. And that's 873 00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:13,800 Speaker 1: the end of this classic episode. If you have any 874 00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:17,800 Speaker 1: thoughts or questions about this episode, you can get into 875 00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:20,360 Speaker 1: contact with us in a number of different ways. One 876 00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:21,920 Speaker 1: of the best is to give us a call. Our 877 00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:25,560 Speaker 1: number is one eight three three st d w y 878 00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:27,800 Speaker 1: t K. If you don't want to do that, you 879 00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:30,320 Speaker 1: can send us a good old fashioned email. We are 880 00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:34,960 Speaker 1: conspiracy at i heart radio dot com. Stuff they Don't 881 00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:37,520 Speaker 1: want you to Know is a production of I heart Radio. 882 00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:40,080 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i 883 00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:43,080 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 884 00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:43,920 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.