1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, breaking. 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 2: News tonight burn Notice a dozen dead that we know of, 3 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 2: thousands left homeless, and now we learn the suspect filmed 4 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 2: firefighters after setting the one and only deadly Palisades blaze 5 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 2: that just ate up property, homes, churches, synagogues and people. 6 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 2: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to 7 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. 8 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 3: People said there's a fire in your area, and that's 9 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:47,480 Speaker 3: when I ran upstairs to see if I could see 10 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 3: anything in softlings everywhere and realized that we didn't really 11 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 3: have a second long group. 12 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 4: And this is the most devastating nightmare any of us 13 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 4: have covered. 14 00:00:58,000 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: Nothing left and people. 15 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 2: You start a fire and a death occurs, that's a felony. 16 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: And I Am not going to be happy until. 17 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 2: These these perps are apprehended in charge to the max. 18 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 2: Is that finally happening tonight A bombshell in the Palisades 19 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 2: fire case. 20 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: I want you to hear the US attorney. 21 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 5: As the world watched in horror as the Palisades fire burned. 22 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 5: Victims perished in the smoke and flames, homes where cherished 23 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 5: family memories and belongings were turned to rubble in ash. 24 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 5: The iconic Pacific Coast Highway along Malibu looked like a 25 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 5: war zone. Thousands of people are forced to evacuate, tho 26 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 5: homes and businesses cannot be rebuilt. 27 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 2: It's one thing to hear the US attorney speaking about 28 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 2: what happened. It's another thing entirely to hear from an 29 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 2: actual victim. Straight out to Stephanie Leidecker Stephanie formerly of 30 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 2: LA She is the executive producer, host of True Crime Tonight, 31 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:11,079 Speaker 2: founder CEO of k T Studios. Stephanie, with your background, 32 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 2: this must have felt like a movie production, except it 33 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 2: was real. And you have your son. You're a single mom, 34 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 2: You've got a son. You have to say what happened, Stephanie. 35 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 4: You know, I was just working from home. I lived 36 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 4: right off of Sunset at the time, and I started 37 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 4: noticing cars basically backing up in front of my house, 38 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 4: and that's very unusual because it's a dead end. And 39 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 4: I was on a work zoom and I went outside, 40 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 4: and sure enough, you could see the blaze coming. And 41 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 4: if anyone knows that area sort of by Temescal Canyon 42 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 4: in Sunset, it is gridlock on a good day. So 43 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 4: suddenly everyone's trying to evacuate, and you know, people were 44 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 4: abandoning cars in front of me and running on foot, 45 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 4: which I understood because it felt as though there was 46 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 4: a chance we wouldn't get out. Yes, and my son, 47 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 4: you know, thankfully, we're all good. He was evacuated from 48 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 4: his school and we were the lucky ones. You know, 49 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 4: the structure that I was living in remained, by the 50 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 4: grace of God. But I can promise you so many 51 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 4: of the people and neighbors and loved ones, you know, 52 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 4: people who have lived in their home for forty five 53 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 4: plus years, this is it. They are wiped to the 54 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 4: ground and there's no real way to start over. And 55 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 4: to say it was an apocalypse, it's an understatement. So 56 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 4: my heart goes out to everyone who is still sort 57 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 4: of going through the ashes and picking up the pieces, 58 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 4: because it really hasn't stopped yet. You know, people are 59 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 4: still living with those who they evacuated to. 60 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 6: Can you imagine. So yeah, hopefully there's some justice to 61 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 6: be had. 62 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 2: Stephanie Laidecker, you stated that you noticed cars were beginning 63 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 2: to back up bumper to bumper right outside your home, 64 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 2: and that's odd in a residential area to suddenly say, 65 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 2: a parking lot out outside your front door completely and 66 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 2: then you look out and see flames. 67 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: Where were the flimes? 68 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 4: I was slightly kind of really near ground zero. There 69 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 4: were just up ahead on the top of the hill. 70 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 4: I was, you know, fairly new to the area too, 71 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 4: so I was so ill prepared for this. I went out, 72 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 4: saw the flames and realized everybody who was backing up 73 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 4: on my street was literally trying to evacuate. There's only 74 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 4: one way out. And remember, as people abandon their cars, 75 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 4: fire trucks can't get in, and then residents can't get out. 76 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 4: So you know, it took you know, over six hours 77 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 4: to get you know, a mile and a half because 78 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 4: as the time progressed, it went from clear sky to 79 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 4: smoke to straight fog. You know, your phone isn't working 80 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 4: because you don't have satellite reception. 81 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,040 Speaker 6: You know it's harrowing kids and pets, and you just 82 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 6: grabbed your phone and went out. 83 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 4: In my case, I didn't assume I would be back 84 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 4: in maybe fifteen minutes, and that this was just a 85 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 4: little something, And boy was I wrong. The devastation is 86 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 4: really unmatched. And listen for firefighters, in law enforcement and 87 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 4: the people who really put their lives on the line 88 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 4: to keep all of us safe. 89 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 2: I'm so grateful, you know, Stephanie, you stated that your son, 90 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 2: your beautiful boy, was evacuated from his school. Yeah, I see. 91 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 2: That would throw me over the edge, not knowing did 92 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 2: the twins get evacuated? Where are they? When can I 93 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 2: get to them? How can I get to them? That's 94 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 2: one of my greatest fears, being separated from them at 95 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 2: a time of emergency, and I can't get to them. 96 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 1: What was going through your mind? 97 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 2: You can see the fire, yeah, and you don't have 98 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 2: your son. 99 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 4: And you can't really communicate, right, So I'm so grateful 100 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 4: that the middle school he was attending, they really went 101 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 4: above and beyond and we're able to evacuate the entire 102 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 4: school to a further location. But again, you don't know 103 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 4: where that location is because you're struggling with communication. And 104 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 4: I will say this, you know, people say this. I 105 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 4: can attest to it now, you know. That is all 106 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 4: that mattered was getting to him. Nothing else did. And 107 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 4: I put my money where my mouth is on that one. 108 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 4: You know, stuff is stuff, but safety. People lost their lives. 109 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 4: Twelve people were killed in this fire, you know, and 110 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 4: the devastation isn't over yet, So yes, guess getting to 111 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 4: my son, seeing him and wrapping my arms around him. 112 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 4: I felt in my heart we were divinely guided and 113 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 4: continue to be so to some extent. 114 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 2: You know too. Psycho analyst joining us out all the 115 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 2: California juristiction doctor Bethany Marshall. 116 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: She's the author of deal Breaker. She's currently on. 117 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 2: Peacock and you can find her at doctor Bethany Marshall 118 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 2: dot com. 119 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 1: Who are these people? 120 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 2: You hear? Alice is still trying to get everyone out 121 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 2: of her house, trying to save them. 122 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: There's six people that she's got to evacuate, two. 123 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 2: Children, two elderly parents for sale, her husband, all the pets, 124 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 2: all of this, all of that, and she looks up 125 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 2: and she sees guys pulling up to start looting houses. 126 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: She's not even out of the house yet. You know, 127 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: who are those people? And Nancy? 128 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 7: This happened so quickly it was like a giant was 129 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 7: standing over the Pacific Palisades with a blow torch. This 130 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 7: was not a fire, This was the whole area being torched. 131 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 7: And that these looters had the time to get there 132 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 7: tells me that, you know, after every like a riot, 133 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 7: a demonstration, a fire. Criminals move in very quickly afterwards, 134 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 7: and I think it's a group of people who are 135 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 7: actually wanting to loot and they're just waiting for the 136 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 7: right opportunity. And Nancy one more thing to place us 137 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 7: into context. It wasn't just the Palisades, it was Altade Nex. 138 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 8: I have an. 139 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 7: Office nearby, and I have colleagues and friends who are 140 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 7: sitting with their patients and they saw the fire coming 141 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 7: over the hill. I have patients who want to move 142 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 7: back home. They could rebuild the fires that the houses 143 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 7: they've lost, but there's no infrastructure. There's no churches, there's 144 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 7: no synagogues, no running water, no neighbors, no community. 145 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 6: So it's not just. 146 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 7: The destruction of each individual home, it's the destruction of everything. 147 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 6: And I have one patient who had a. 148 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: Million dollar home. The insurance the. 149 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 7: Insurance company offered her two hundred thousand dollars to rebuild 150 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 7: the home and she can't do it with that. 151 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 2: In addition to all the property damage you're hearing about, 152 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 2: at least twelve people die and now. 153 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: Who did it? Just I hope you're sitting down listen. 154 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 5: Today we are announcing the arrest of twenty nine year 155 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 5: old Jonathan Winderneck for igniting a fire that ultimately burned 156 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 5: down the Policies earlier this year, killing twelve people, destroying 157 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 5: more than sixteen hundred structures, both homes and businesses, and 158 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,119 Speaker 5: damaging over one thousand more buildings. 159 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: Who is this guy? 160 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 2: And why why burn a notice? How can we prove 161 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 2: and our sin first? Is very difficult to do. You 162 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 2: have to prove first of all. 163 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: That a crime occurred, that this was not some sort 164 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: of an. 165 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 2: Accident, but then intent, that a crime was intended. Who 166 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 2: in the world would cause such an incident, claiming the 167 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 2: lives of at least twelve and ruining literally thousands of acres, 168 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 2: ripping people from their homes, and they can never go back. 169 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: Who is this guy? 170 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 9: Growing up in France, Renderneck is now living in Pacific 171 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 9: Palisades working as a uber driver. In the fall, Renderneck 172 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 9: feeds Chad Gpt a detailed blending imagery of a dystopian 173 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 9: painting divided into parts that blend together seamlessly, fire, fear, 174 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 9: rich people and the poor. A month later, he tells 175 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 9: a family member he burned his Bible and describes it 176 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 9: to chat Gpt as liberating as the year comes to 177 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 9: an end. His last Passengers of twenty twenty four described 178 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 9: the twenty nine year old as agitated and angry. 179 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 2: I don't understand what I'm hearing. He tells a family member. 180 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:32,599 Speaker 2: He burned his Bible and he said it was liberating, 181 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 2: and he is relentlessly searching chat gpt. He blends an 182 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 2: imagery of a dystopian painting divided into parts fire, fear, 183 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 2: rich people and poor, and the fire. 184 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: Is looming down on all of them. That's his work. 185 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: He created that, Sidney Sumner. That's absolutely cool. 186 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:07,959 Speaker 10: Investigators found that Renderneck created a concerning chat GPT prompt, 187 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 10: so he asked chat gpt, this AI service, to create 188 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 10: an image of a city essentially burning down. So it 189 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 10: created twelve different shots, and you see the fire pearing 190 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 10: through this city and people running out of the city 191 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,719 Speaker 10: into the woods for cover. It's very, very disturbing. 192 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 2: It is disturbing, and I would say probative that it 193 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 2: proves something. But to Dina Dahl joining us out of 194 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 2: this jurisdiction, try a lawyer, attorney, a consultant, Dina. If 195 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 2: they want to make these charges stick, they're going to 196 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 2: need more than a dystopian painting depicting a fire looming 197 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 2: down on all parts of some dystopian city. 198 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: They're going to need more than that, absolutely. 199 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 11: I mean the fact that he wants this image, and 200 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 11: also the fact that he listened to a song, which 201 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 11: I'm sure you'll talk about as well. You know, people's 202 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 11: aren't aren't great, you know, motivation in court, you know, 203 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 11: presenting a picture and a song somebody listened to, as 204 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 11: you said, Arson, is going to be very difficult to prove. 205 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 11: And this, you know, is how somebody enjoys their music 206 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,079 Speaker 11: or what images they like to see. That's going to 207 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 11: be hard to connect the dots to a jury. 208 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, this is what the US 209 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 2: attorney says happened. 210 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: Let's hear it from the horses mouth. 211 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 5: After dropping off a passenger in Pacific Poli seats, Rinderneck 212 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 5: parked his car and tried and failed to contact a 213 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 5: former friend. He exited the car, walked up a nearby trail, 214 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 5: took iPhone videos at a nearby hilltime up and listened 215 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 5: to a rap song whose music video including objects being 216 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 5: lit on fire. The defendant had listened to this song 217 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,959 Speaker 5: and watched its music video repeatedly in the days leading 218 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 5: up to the Lochman fire. Twelve minutes into the new year, 219 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 5: environmental sensing platforms indicated that a fire had started. 220 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: Isn't it true? 221 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 2: Sydney Summer Crime Stories investigative reporter that he listened to 222 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,439 Speaker 2: this song over and over and over and it's. 223 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,079 Speaker 1: All about burning, burning things down. 224 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 10: Yes, Rendernick listened to this song repeatedly in the days 225 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 10: leading up to the Lachman fire, a song that. 226 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: He was playing on Loop. 227 00:13:43,160 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 2: Let's listen to it. But he played that over and 228 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 2: over and over on Loop. 229 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: That from at Josman. 230 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 2: So the say is going to need more than what 231 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 2: he was listening to in his ear pod. And they're 232 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 2: gonna need more than some wacky dystopian painting. 233 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: They're gonna need hard evidence to prove it. Arson case. 234 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: Guys joining me right now. 235 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 2: Shannon Butler, investigative reporter, WFTV Channel nine, Florida. She just 236 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 2: walked out a federal court a few hours ago for 237 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 2: she observed the suspect at his first court appear at 238 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 2: Shannon Butler, what happened? 239 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 12: We just got out of this federal courthouse here in 240 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 12: downtown Orlando. This was a detention hearing, and what the 241 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 12: judge decided is that he is too much of a 242 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 12: flight risk to be allowed bond, so he will remain 243 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 12: behind bars here in Orlando until he has transferred them 244 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 12: back to LA There is another hearing now on October seventeenth. Well, 245 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 12: they will present some more of that evidence, not preliminary hearing, 246 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 12: but today the judge was concerned about his mental state 247 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 12: and his living arrangements. 248 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 8: He had been living in. 249 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 12: Florida for about the last five months, living with his 250 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 12: sister and brother in law, but in the last month, 251 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 12: two nine one one calls were made from that home. 252 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 8: The first call came about. 253 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 12: September seventeenth, where the family members told them there was 254 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 12: a disturbance inside the home where he threatened to burn 255 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 12: their house down. Now, just a week later, another nine 256 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 12: to one one call from that home where his father 257 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 12: said that he had a gun and was threatening to 258 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 12: shoot his brother in law if his brother in law 259 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 12: started to come towards him. 260 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 8: And he needed to do that in self defense. 261 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 12: So the family really put painting a picture for us 262 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 12: here of a defining mental state. 263 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 2: Okay, Shannon Butler, don't know Shannon Butler joining us ives 264 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 2: he had reported WFTV Channel nine, Florida. You said, the 265 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 2: judge stayed the suspect is a flight risk, which leads 266 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 2: to me to my first question, what's he doing in Florida. 267 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 2: If he can make it all the way from California 268 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 2: to Florida, he clearly is a flight risk. What did 269 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 2: he drive his ubercar there? 270 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 12: Well, he did drive his car from California to Florida. 271 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 12: But the judge said, he also has ties to France. 272 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 12: It's where another brother and his father lived. He lived 273 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 12: there for some time. He even speaks French. They were 274 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 12: concerned about that. They were also concerned because he made 275 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 12: some comments that he may go try to live in Bali. 276 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 8: So all of those things. 277 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 12: Oh another thing, Nancy, he told investigators that he could 278 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 12: not find his passport. 279 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 8: It was lost. 280 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 12: That of course, raising quite a concern for the judge. 281 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 12: When you don't know where your passport is. They said, well, 282 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 12: what is lost could be found. 283 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 2: Shannon, Ball are joining us outside the courthouse. You're absolutely correct, Shannon. 284 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 2: He grew up in France, he lived there many many years. 285 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 2: Then he goes to Pacific palis As. I don't know 286 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 2: what occurred in between that France and Pacific Palace. Now 287 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 2: he's in Melbourne, Florida, and he's been working as an 288 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,239 Speaker 2: uber driver. As a matter of fact, according to the 289 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 2: federal government, just before he started the fire that turned 290 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:15,360 Speaker 2: into the Palisades fire, he had just dropped. 291 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: Off his first Uber passenger of the year. 292 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 2: He lives on chat GPT, which is going to be 293 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 2: a treasure trove for prosecutors. But let me understand, he's 294 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 2: not getting bond. 295 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: Is that right? 296 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 8: That is correct. 297 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 12: You will be made here in Orlando and tell another 298 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 12: hearing where he has for evidence here on October seventeenth. 299 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 12: After that, it remains to be seen when he will 300 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 12: then head back to California to face these charges. Remember, Nancy, 301 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 12: these are just the beginning of what could be more 302 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 12: and more charges. Right now, facing a mandatory minimum of 303 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 12: five years up to. 304 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:57,360 Speaker 8: Twenty or so. 305 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 12: But now they're looking at the possibility of twenty to 306 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 12: the death penalty because I remember a dozen deaths there 307 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 12: in California. 308 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what, a dozen. 309 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 2: If that doesn't qualify for the death penalty, I don't 310 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:11,959 Speaker 2: know what will. And I'm gonna get into it with 311 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 2: Dina Dole in just a moment regarding felony murder. But 312 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 2: Shannon Butler, what was your observation of him in court? 313 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,440 Speaker 12: So he walked in in a red jumpsuit, he was 314 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 12: a little bit disheveled. 315 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 8: He has long hair, he was disheveled. 316 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 12: He did engage with his public defender quite a bit, 317 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 12: sometimes smiling, shaking his head a lot at. 318 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:35,919 Speaker 8: What the prosecutors were saying. 319 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:41,400 Speaker 12: The prosecutors had some conversations with the courtroom about him 320 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 12: breaking up with a girl just before he allegedly started 321 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 12: this fire, that he broke up with her and he 322 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 12: was in kind of a bad state, didn't have any friends, 323 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 12: didn't have a network, and that's kind of when things 324 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:54,439 Speaker 12: started to go downhill. 325 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: Shannon, stop, stop right there. You think I care. 326 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 2: He broke up with his girlfriend, who on this panel 327 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 2: has never. 328 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: Been dumped at least once. 329 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 2: We've all been dumped by somebody, and we've all dumped somebody. 330 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 1: So what wait, he is in a bad place. What 331 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 1: are you saying to me? He was in a bad place. 332 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,160 Speaker 1: He had a car, he had. 333 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 2: EarPods, he had a full stomach, a place to stay, 334 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 2: gasoline in his car. 335 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: You know people around the world. That means he's in 336 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: the top one percent of people in the world. So 337 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 1: what do you mean, He's. 338 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 2: In a bad place, so bad he had to kill 339 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 2: twelve people and destroyed the line. Did you hear Stephanie Lydecker, 340 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 2: her whole place gone, her. 341 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: Son evacuated, She didn't even know where he was. 342 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 12: Yeah, that's what the prosecutor has basically said that what 343 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 12: has happened to him was not didn't really give a 344 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 12: good excuse for what happened here. They said when they 345 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 12: approached him and started to interview him back in January, 346 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 12: that he told a lot of lies to those investigators. 347 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 12: They wouldn't he wouldn't answer questions like what kind of 348 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 12: cigarettes do you smoke? And today in court they found 349 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 12: out not only did they know he had one gun 350 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 12: that he was keeping Nancy in a bear with a 351 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 12: zipper on it, a child's toy, that's where he was 352 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 12: keeping this gun. But today the special agent got on 353 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 12: the stand and said, just today they got some evidence 354 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 12: back that he had a second gun in his possession 355 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 12: that they knew nothing about. They said he wasn't very 356 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 12: honest in those original interviews, and that was another reason 357 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 12: they thought he should stay here behind bars. 358 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,719 Speaker 2: Straight back out to Shannon Butler, WFTV. 359 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: Channel nine, who has been in the courtroom observing the defendant. 360 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: This is a huge break in the case. 361 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 2: It's very hard to determine, first weather case is ares 362 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 2: because the evidence. 363 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 1: Is all burned up. 364 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 2: And then if it is arson intentional, who did it. 365 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 2: Last thing you want is a firebug, a pyromaniac with 366 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 2: two guns wandering around who's threatening people. So the judge 367 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 2: did the right thing keeping him behind bars. 368 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,120 Speaker 1: But you stated that he was You said shaking his head. 369 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 2: I assume that means shaking his head, no, not nodding 370 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 2: his head. Yes, correct, correct? Did he say anything in court? 371 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 8: No, he didn't. 372 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 12: The only thing that he said was the judge asked 373 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 12: him again how to pronounce his name, and he gave 374 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 12: him the pronunciation of his name. But that's all he 375 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 12: said in this about an hour and a half hearing this. 376 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 2: Morning, Shannon Butler, you said that he was disagreeing with 377 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 2: what the prosecutors were saying. 378 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 12: Yeah, he shook his head when they started talking about 379 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 12: his ex girlfriend. That on New Year's Eve, right before 380 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 12: this fire started, he had text his ex. 381 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 8: She did not answer. 382 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 12: He had text somebody else that said no, I don't 383 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 12: want to hang out I need some space. And then 384 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 12: a third person he texted to hang out with on 385 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 12: New Year's Eve said they didn't remember him. So he 386 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 12: was shaking his head during that and a couple of 387 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 12: other times when they were talking about those incidents inside 388 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 12: the home where he was living. 389 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 8: Nancy let me point out too that. 390 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 12: The brother in law and the sister were so afraid 391 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 12: inside their home. They wanted to get him out, and 392 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 12: police said, you know, you probably should leave. Here's how 393 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 12: you evict somebody, but they were so scared. In the meantime, 394 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 12: they moved out of their own home, and he was 395 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 12: living in that house by himself because the brother in 396 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 12: law and the sister did not want to live with 397 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 12: him anymore with their kids. They thought he was just 398 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 12: not in the right state of mind given the last 399 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 12: couple of things that had happened. 400 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 2: Wow, his sister and her husband and children move out 401 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 2: of their own home rather than live with him there. 402 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 1: Out of fear. 403 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 2: Okay, I see a case beginning the building. 404 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,479 Speaker 1: Of a case. It's not just some dystopian painting. He 405 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 1: created a chat GPT. 406 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 2: It's not just listening to lyrics where you see a 407 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 2: guy burning up money, starting a fire in a trash can, 408 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 2: and you watch it over and over and over, and 409 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 2: the guy singing is just totally miserable. But we're getting 410 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 2: more evidence. We're getting more evidence. I want you to 411 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 2: hear what the US attorney has to say. 412 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 5: It took the defendant several tries to try tack nine 413 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 5: to one one to report the fire. He fled the 414 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 5: scene in his car, but turned around after passing fire engines, 415 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 5: driving in the opposite direction to fight the fire. To 416 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 5: fight the fire. While the Lackman fire burned, the defendant 417 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 5: walked up the same trail from earlier that night to 418 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 5: watch the fire and firefighters, using his iPhone to take 419 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 5: short videos of the scene. 420 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 2: To Dina Dahl joining as veteran trial lawyer, out of 421 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 2: this jurisdiction, you've got the alleged purp calling nine to 422 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 2: one one over and and over from the scene where 423 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 2: the fire started. 424 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: That speaks to me, that means something. 425 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 2: In fact, one of the biggest arson cases I ever 426 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:13,400 Speaker 2: investigated and prosecuted. 427 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: The purp himself called nine one one. He's a millionaire. 428 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 2: When the fire trucks arrived, he was lying all romanesque 429 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 2: on the lawn across the street. 430 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: From his home, which was in flames. 431 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 2: After about four or five minutes, he has, oh, yeah, 432 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 2: my wife's in there. Yeah, he called nine one one, 433 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 2: just like this guy's calling a nine one one. 434 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 1: What about it, Dina Dahl? 435 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 11: I think what you said there alleged. We got to 436 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 11: remember here, you know, he's innocent until proven guilty, and 437 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 11: that's not nothing right. This applies regardless of how bad 438 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 11: we think the crime is. And just because he called that, 439 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 11: I mean to your point where you said earlier, Arson 440 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,919 Speaker 11: has to be intentional, it has to be malicious. The 441 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 11: fact that he called so many times. His defense attorney, 442 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 11: I am sure will argue that if they can, if 443 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 11: they're even going to conceive that he lit the fire, 444 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 11: it was accidental, and that is the evidence of him 445 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 11: trying to call so many times. Was him trying to 446 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 11: get the fire stopped. Not showing guilt but actually showing 447 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 11: his innocence. 448 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 2: Oh okay, Stephanie Leidecker joining us. She and her boy 449 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 2: were evacuated after the fire threatened their lives. 450 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 1: Did you know in between calling nine one one, he 451 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 1: was video he was leaving, he was leaving the scene. 452 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 2: Then he sees fire trucks coming, went ooh, I want 453 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 2: a video that he. 454 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: Turns around, follows the fire trucks and comes back and 455 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 1: videos them risking their lives to fight the fire. 456 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 2: So I don't know if I can add a felon 457 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 2: account of PERV. But you're leaving the scene of a 458 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 2: fire you allegedly started. But you see, oh, here come 459 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 2: guys and women about to risk their lives. 460 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: One may die. 461 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 2: I better get that on video, and goes back while 462 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 2: all this is happening. People have been evacuated, they're dying, 463 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 2: and he's videoing it. 464 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 1: That don't bother you because it bothers me. 465 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, it bothers me a lot. Imagine what kind of 466 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,119 Speaker 4: a sicko would actually set a fire intentionally, if in 467 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 4: fact this is what he did allegedly allegedly allegedly then 468 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 4: to offer to help firefighters to help right the blaze 469 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 4: that he potentially started for himself. Is this an idea 470 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 4: that he'll be a hero. Will he be the guy 471 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 4: that is now sunnily relevant because he's destroyed so many lives. 472 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 4: I personally would like him to come talk to you 473 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 4: about it. I'll hide behind you with backup. But if 474 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 4: this is true, it is so devastating that one person 475 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 4: could do this to so many. 476 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,199 Speaker 2: You know, Stephanie, you just brought up the idea. Did 477 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,400 Speaker 2: he want to pretend he was the hero? Analyze his acts? 478 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 2: So he goes to the scene before the fire starts. 479 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:11,360 Speaker 2: He's there before the fire starts. The fire starts, he 480 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 2: tries to call nine one one, then he leaves. He 481 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 2: then sees firetrucks coming and decides, I'm not leaving. I'm 482 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 2: gonna go video them while they fight the blaze. And 483 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 2: he stays there and takes video as his rap song 484 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 2: plays over and over and he can see in the 485 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:37,919 Speaker 2: video a guy starting fires. And we've heard from Shannon Butler. 486 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: About how distraught he was he had no one to 487 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: hang out with on New Year's Eve. 488 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 4: Really, whoa I mean, tell that to everybody who's lost 489 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 4: absolutely everything and also the loss of life. It's unimaginable. 490 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 4: And this guy got dumped by his girlfriend and suddenly 491 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 4: that's enough. He was feeling lost in the sauce about 492 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 4: what life was meant for him. He had a job. 493 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 4: To your point, he had EarPods. If in fact this 494 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 4: is true, and amily goes to show that we are 495 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 4: that disconnected that on New Year's Day, the start of. 496 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 6: A fresh year. This person decides. 497 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 4: That he's going to take matters into his own hands 498 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 4: and have some dystopian photo of Look at these videos 499 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 4: right now. The destruction is unimaginable. It's a town that's 500 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 4: been completely wiped off the mat It's literally just chimneys 501 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 4: and abandoned cars, and you know, the ripple effect is real. 502 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 4: Everyone is still traumatized by the event. I can't tell 503 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 4: you how many neighbors and friends I speak to that 504 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 4: are just lost because there's nowhere to go. There's no 505 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 4: money to start over. So if you're lucky enough and listen, 506 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 4: I'm one of them that was like, I'm out, there's 507 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 4: a new life someplace else, because I'm too scared to 508 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 4: look over my shoulder at this point. But imagine those 509 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 4: who have lost absolutely everything. Their life is an ash 510 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 4: and they have to now stay and figure out how 511 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,719 Speaker 4: to push on in this town that is now still 512 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 4: very far away from being inhabitable. 513 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Gray. 514 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 9: During calls, Renderneck asked chat GPT, are you at fault 515 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 9: if a fire is lit because of your cigarettes? Renderneck 516 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 9: gives conflicting statements about whether he smoked near the trail 517 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 9: that night, and where he was when he called Renderneck 518 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 9: claims he was at the bottom of the trail, but 519 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 9: location data shows while speaking with nine one one he's 520 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 9: just thirty feet from the fire's origin. 521 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 5: He lied about where he was when he first saw 522 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 5: the Lockman fire, claiming he was near the bottom of 523 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 5: a hiking trail. Geolocation data for the nine to one 524 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,719 Speaker 5: one calls showed that he was standing above the fire 525 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 5: and in clearing, merely thirty feet from the blaze as 526 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 5: it rapidly grew. 527 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:58,479 Speaker 2: Asking jat GPT, is it my fault if I started 528 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 2: a fire with a cigarette? 529 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: Right out to Moses. 530 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 2: Castillo joining me, private investigator for the Jrdulian Law Group, 531 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 2: former supervising detective with the LAPD, and you can find 532 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 2: him at Moses Castillo Investigations dot com. 533 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 1: Really starting a fire? Is it my fault? 534 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 2: If I killed twelve people with a cigarette, started a fire, 535 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 2: then I ran from the scene. Then I decided to 536 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 2: video the cops and the firefighters because I thought maybe 537 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 2: one of them would die. I mean, what is a 538 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 2: jury going to make of this? Do you believe that's 539 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 2: going to be the defense? Moses Castillo, I accidentally started 540 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 2: a fire with a cigarette with all this other extrinsic 541 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 2: circumstantial evidence. 542 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 13: Okay, Naty, this is no fireworks now lighting, no power lanes, 543 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 13: just one man with one lighter and a trail of 544 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 13: digital brick comes. He filmed this fire, he chased the 545 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 13: fire trucks. Any I said, reliable, that's not remorse, that's rehearsal. 546 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,479 Speaker 1: What do you mean by that, Moses Castillo, I mean 547 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: that he. 548 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 13: Pre planned this, he intended to do this. What I 549 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 13: do believe it's going to be very challenging for the 550 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 13: government to prove their case is the fact that the 551 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 13: fire department, they thought they put this far out, and 552 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 13: seven six or seven days later the wind reignited. I 553 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 13: think that's going to be a bigger issue for the 554 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 13: government's case. 555 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: So let me give you a comparison, Moses Castello. I 556 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: shoot you in the leg. 557 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 2: I aim for your heart, but I get your leg, 558 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 2: and you linger in the hospital for six days. And 559 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 2: then the gunshot went into your leg, causes a pulmonary 560 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 2: amblysm and it goes to your brain and you die. 561 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: So what I'm not going to be charged with murder? 562 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: Think about it? Moses. 563 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 13: Answer, Well, you bring a very good point and yes, 564 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 13: that person should be charged for verdict because it was me. 565 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 13: But in any event, here I do believe that there 566 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 13: are enough evidence, circumstantial evidence and digital footprints that can't 567 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 13: get him convicted. I'm just saying that defense is going 568 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 13: to argue, you know, the department would have done their 569 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 13: job properly, this would have happened. I think it's going 570 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 13: to be a defensilet on by it. I think he 571 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 13: definitely has the profile of somebody who would do something 572 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 13: like this, and this is just this should be treated 573 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 13: as a violent crime, not just bars him by itself. 574 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 2: Okay, I want to get back to what Moses Castillo, 575 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 2: who is a private eye there in California, is saying. 576 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 1: Listen to what the US attorney said. 577 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 5: Although firefighters suppressed the blaze, the fire continued to smolder 578 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 5: and burn underground within the root structure of the dense vegetation. 579 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 5: So that fire started on January first, and it smoldered 580 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 5: underground for about a week until on January seventh, heavy 581 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 5: wins caused this underground fire to surface and spread above ground, 582 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 5: causing what became known as the Palisades Fired, one of 583 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 5: the most destructive wall fires in Los Angeles City. 584 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 2: History and joining us Nicole Brock. She has a veteran 585 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 2: firefighter and a Mt. Arson expert of the Atlanta jurisdiction. 586 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 2: Nicole brought what is a hold over fire? 587 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 14: Well, Hollover fires, Nancy, are firefighters worst nightmares. They are 588 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 14: the fires that once we. 589 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 6: Believe that they have been out, we've extinguished the fire. 590 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 14: They have a way of rekindling, and a lot of jurisdictions, 591 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 14: particularly like mine, we call them rekindle fires. 592 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: Nicole Brock. 593 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 2: The theory is, according to the defense, this was an 594 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 2: accidental fire started by a cigarette. 595 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: How do you prove arson? 596 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 14: So again, arsons are difficult to prove, and to link 597 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 14: it back to one cigarette is going. 598 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 8: To be hard. 599 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 14: The big overwhelming thing with looking for arson in this 600 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 14: particular situation is the ignition piece. 601 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 8: How many ignition points. 602 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: The things that they're going to be looking for are fuel. 603 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 8: Was their fuel that was used? 604 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 14: And that's easy to detect too, because you'll see a 605 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 14: different charring that comes differently than you will see with 606 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 14: something that just started with natural vegetation. I believe that, unfortunately, 607 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 14: with this particular suspect, I think he's going to have 608 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 14: a hard time with trying to prove his case and 609 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 14: that he used a cigarette or he accidentally started a cigarette. 610 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 14: All of his actions point back to Arson's activity. 611 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 8: Arson. 612 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: These are things that Arson is do. 613 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 2: Straight out to a special guest joining us, Alexandra Fly 614 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 2: for her home destroyed in the Palisades fire. 615 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 1: Alexandra, thank you for being. 616 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 6: With us, Thanks for having me. I appreciate your coverage. 617 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 1: Alexandra. What happened that day? 618 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 15: I've been listening to you guys discussing just the fire 619 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:55,320 Speaker 15: and the seven day gap. So in the morning, just 620 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 15: before lunchtime around eleven those of us. I live on 621 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 15: a bluff below where the fire started, and if you 622 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 15: looked up to the top of the crest of the 623 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 15: hills that were behind us, you could see smoke and 624 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 15: fire in our neighborhood. 625 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 6: Is not uncommon. We've had a lot of brush fires. 626 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 6: This felt different. 627 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,320 Speaker 15: And the thing is is from that fire, from the 628 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 15: first that they put out, there had been warnings all 629 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 15: week that we were going to have I mean, the 630 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 15: Santa Ana winds are a thing we know about them. 631 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 6: We were being warned. So I mean, if in fact 632 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 6: this is Arson, and I kind of. 633 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,719 Speaker 15: Agree with the firefighter who said seven days is a 634 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,800 Speaker 15: long time for a reignition of a fire. But the 635 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 15: winds were horrible even in the earlier part of the day, 636 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 15: and the fire started at around eleven and change, and 637 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 15: by the late afternoon, I mean, it was everywhere. So 638 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 15: I left fairly early because I've grown up there, I 639 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 15: know our community, and the fire just felt different this time, 640 00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,440 Speaker 15: and that you're now seeing images of what remained of 641 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 15: my home and my entire neighborhood. 642 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 6: I mean, every house was gone by the evening, by 643 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 6: ten or eleven at night. 644 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,760 Speaker 2: Alexandra, what did you mean when you said this felt different? 645 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 15: Something about the speed When I walked outside and my 646 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 15: driveway sort of if you looked north, you could see 647 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 15: the mountains fairly clearly, and you could see the movement 648 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,320 Speaker 15: of the fire coming down the hill, and it was 649 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:30,320 Speaker 15: already windy. It just had there was just a feeling 650 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,840 Speaker 15: of a greater threat. And people usually with us, we 651 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 15: have a fire warning. We all tend to evacuate if 652 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,720 Speaker 15: we know there's a brush fire. People were running around 653 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 15: in our you know, in their putting their animals in 654 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 15: their car, and I just looked around and it just 655 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:48,320 Speaker 15: felt different. 656 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:54,280 Speaker 6: It felt a little more ominous. The smoke was darker. 657 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 6: It just I don't know. 658 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 15: I think growing up there, you just know it was. 659 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 15: I knew it when I was leaving that the devastation 660 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 15: was going to be more than we had seen. I 661 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 15: certainly didn't think this would happen, but it just the 662 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,439 Speaker 15: winds were already strong, and usually the winds pick up at. 663 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:13,320 Speaker 6: Night, and it was already windy by midday. So I just, 664 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 6: I don't know. I think those of us who lived there, 665 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 6: we just had a feeling that it knew. 666 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, Doctor Bethany Marshall joining a psychoanalyst in this jurisdiction, 667 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany, I think it's instinct. For instance, when you 668 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 2: are driving down the inter site lets seeing you look 669 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,839 Speaker 2: over there and you see a brush fire and you're 670 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 2: not afraid. 671 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 1: It doesn't put you in fear. 672 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 2: As opposed to what Alexandra is saying, she knew in 673 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 2: her bones this was different and immediately started to evacuate. 674 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 1: It was just a feeling. 675 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 7: It was instinct, Nancy, It's a survival instinct, you know. 676 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,320 Speaker 6: I was in my Santa Barbara home, which is about. 677 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,399 Speaker 7: An hour and a half north of the Pacific Palisades, 678 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,399 Speaker 7: and I felt it psychologically up here. The winds were 679 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 7: so horrendous. I was afraid they were going to blow 680 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 7: the roof off of my house. I had a very 681 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 7: eerie feeling. And then I turned on the news and 682 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 7: I heard about the Palisades and this purpse is alleged 683 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 7: purp Nancy. You know what I think is so terrifying 684 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,839 Speaker 7: about this is that he did rehearse. Like Moses said, 685 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 7: I think this was sexually exciting to him. Pyromania is 686 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 7: a compulsion, just like compulsive masturbating, compulsive gambling, compulsive binging, 687 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 7: and purging. Often there's a buildup of feelings that the 688 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 7: perpetrator cannot self regulate, and the only way to neutralize 689 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 7: the feeling is to engage in the act, and in 690 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 7: this case it is pyromania. 691 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 2: Alexandra, I for joining us, who lost her home? What happened? 692 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 2: You see the fire, You realize people are evacuating. You 693 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 2: know in your bones, I could die, my family could die. 694 00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:58,400 Speaker 1: What did you do? 695 00:38:59,080 --> 00:38:59,279 Speaker 2: Well? 696 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,239 Speaker 15: I was My biggest regret is I just left. I 697 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 15: had more time than I realized. But listening to you, 698 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,840 Speaker 15: I think you're right. I am a pretty strong willed person. 699 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 15: I trust my instincts. I did feel that it was 700 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,359 Speaker 15: not going to end well, and we had my daughter 701 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:19,280 Speaker 15: had bunny rabbits. 702 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,520 Speaker 6: I put them in my car and I just drove away. 703 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 6: But I also had friends. 704 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,400 Speaker 15: Who lived so there are a lot of different pockets 705 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 15: of the Palisades. For those people who don't know the Palisades, 706 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,279 Speaker 15: everybody thinks it's just a small, little niche neighborhood in 707 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 15: La It's pretty vast and there are different neighborhoods, and 708 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 15: some people live up on the hill. One of my 709 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,239 Speaker 15: friends who lived up on the hill called me as 710 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,760 Speaker 15: she was driving down the hill in her car caught fire. 711 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 6: So I didn't want to wait. But because I didn't wait, 712 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,759 Speaker 6: I lost all of my belongings. I had no time. 713 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 15: I just put our animals in the car and I 714 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:57,759 Speaker 15: drove away, and my assistant who worked for me, was 715 00:39:57,840 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 15: stuck in traffic and couldn't get out. 716 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 6: I mean, I feel like it was about for me. 717 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,279 Speaker 15: I just felt it was more important that I got 718 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,880 Speaker 15: out than I got my things out, And so everything 719 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 15: perished except for our animals. Other people waited a little 720 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:16,799 Speaker 15: bit longer and were able to get some of their 721 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:21,359 Speaker 15: personal belongings out, but you know, their lives were at risk. 722 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:23,600 Speaker 15: I just felt like it was more important to leave. 723 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:27,400 Speaker 2: Doctor Kimmel Crown's joining US Chief Medical Examiner Terrett County 724 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,920 Speaker 2: fort Worth, esteemed lecturer Brenette School of Medicine at TCU, 725 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 2: and star of a hit new podcast, Mayhem in the 726 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:37,800 Speaker 2: Morgue Dodgor Crowns. 727 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 1: In my experience of. 728 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 2: Investigating and prosecuting arsons, which are a highly technical case 729 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,239 Speaker 2: to prosecute, you have to have a certain expertise to 730 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 2: do that. Typically victims die in three ways. They either suffocate, 731 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 2: they actually burned to death, or an object falls on 732 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,840 Speaker 2: them and they die because of blunt force trauma. 733 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: Doctor Kendall Crowns. People that die a smoke inhalation, they 734 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 1: live for a period of time. They know they're dying. 735 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,160 Speaker 1: Doctor Crowns, Yes, that's correct. 736 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 16: When the smoke is building up, as many of the 737 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:21,439 Speaker 16: people have it testified to today, that your eyes burn, 738 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,920 Speaker 16: your throat's burning, you're starting to get mucous production, you're coughing, 739 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 16: you're hacking, you're gagging, and as you're breathing in this smoke, 740 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,880 Speaker 16: you're also breathing in carbon monoxide. The carbon monoxide is 741 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,319 Speaker 16: causing you your body to displace oxygen, and now you're 742 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:42,400 Speaker 16: no longer getting proper oxygen to your tissues, and eventually 743 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,520 Speaker 16: you'll not get enough oxygen because the carbon monoxide and 744 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,279 Speaker 16: your tissues will die, and then you die. And this 745 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,839 Speaker 16: takes place over several minutes to even a half hour 746 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,319 Speaker 16: or so, depending on how high the smoke is, how 747 00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 16: much carbon monoxide there is. So yes, you're very aware 748 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,400 Speaker 16: of what's going on during that time period, trying to 749 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 16: get out, trying to escape, coughing, gagging, whatever, but you 750 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:09,879 Speaker 16: can't get out, and then you're correct. The other ones 751 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,800 Speaker 16: are things collapsed fall on you and pin you and 752 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,400 Speaker 16: then you burn to that, or you just get surrounded 753 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:17,799 Speaker 16: by the fire and you burn from that as well, 754 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,359 Speaker 16: and then the fire itself burning you is extreme pain, 755 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:23,839 Speaker 16: and you're in pain for several seconds to a few 756 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,520 Speaker 16: minutes until you finally succumbed to shock and pass out. 757 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:33,279 Speaker 2: Alexandrewfifer joining us, who lost her entire home in the 758 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:38,240 Speaker 2: Palisades fire. That could have been you what doctor Kendall 759 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:43,600 Speaker 2: Crown's just described. I hope you never feel remorse about 760 00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:45,120 Speaker 2: not getting your things. 761 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 6: Makes me so emotional, Nancy. 762 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,680 Speaker 15: But here's what a lot of people don't say, and 763 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 15: I said this earlier on when this happened, is that 764 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,279 Speaker 15: this happened in the day. If this had happened at 765 00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:00,160 Speaker 15: night and the fire had started at six pm, not 766 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:05,480 Speaker 15: eleven am, think about how many people have no landlines, 767 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:09,320 Speaker 15: take sleeping pills, don't check that, turn their cell phones 768 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:13,279 Speaker 15: off at night. I mean, of course any loss of life. 769 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,080 Speaker 15: Nobody should have died in this fire, but imagine if 770 00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:19,880 Speaker 15: it had happened at night, and if it had burned 771 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 15: and escalated in the middle of the night. 772 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,600 Speaker 6: I think about it constantly. I'm very grateful that I don't. 773 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,279 Speaker 15: I'm here and that I can, you know, have time 774 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,520 Speaker 15: with my family following this, and the things don't matter. 775 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 6: You're right, but it's still it doesn't leave your head. 776 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:44,720 Speaker 2: And now we remember American heroes, the heroes that evacuated 777 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:49,000 Speaker 2: saving their lives and the lives of others, the fire 778 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:54,200 Speaker 2: fighters who raised their own lives to save the lives of. 779 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,960 Speaker 1: Others, and the Palisades Fire. 780 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:03,359 Speaker 2: And tonight we not only as justice unfolds, we pray 781 00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:10,680 Speaker 2: that justice unfolds and rains down on this case. 782 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:12,560 Speaker 1: Good night, friend,