WEBVTT - Great Architects: William Flynn 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:03.440 This is a big year for the golf architect William Flynn. 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:07.720 First we have the US Open at his masterpiece, shinnacowk Hills, 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:12.160 and then in August the US Amateur at Marion Golf Club, 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:16.400 where he led construction and served as superintendent. So in 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:20.239 this episode we're digging deep into what makes William Flynn 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:25.600 a great architect. I'm Garrett Morrison, and this is designing golf, 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:35.920 all right. Before we bring in Jim Nagel, let's talk 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:41.479 about the five essential William Flynn golf courses. Now, a 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:45.440 few caveats before we dive in here. One. These are 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:51.159 not necessarily Flynn's best courses or even my favorite Flynn courses. 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:54.520 These are just five courses that you could study and 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:58.400 come away with a pretty good understanding of Flynn's architecture. 0:00:58.880 --> 0:01:01.440 And that leads into my second caveat, which is that 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:04.200 there are a lot of candidates for this list. In 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:07.959 William Flynn's body of work, he designed a ton of 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:12.600 very good to excellent courses. But there's really just one 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:16.240 automatic entry and you can probably guess what it is. 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:19.319 It's about to host a US Open. But the four 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:23.560 other slots could go to any of kind of like 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:27.520 fifteen golf courses probably, so these are just my picks 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:31.440 right now. I could easily be convinced to change them. 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:36.120 The final caveat is that I'm not including three extremely 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:40.880 famous golf courses that William Flynn contributed to but did 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:44.920 not design completely or on his own, and those are 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:50.600 Pine Valley, Marion and the Country Club at Brookline. Flynn 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:54.120 was an important influence on all of those courses, but 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:58.600 I'm focusing here on his solo designs, So let's get 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:02.480 into it. The first, first essential William Flynn golf course 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:08.240 is obviously Shinnecock Hills in Southampton, New York. Now Here 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:10.679 at Friday Golf, We've done a ton of content on 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:14.440 Shinnecock Hills recently. I just did a two hour podcast 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:18.760 last week on designing Golf about Shinnacock, so I'll refer 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:21.640 you to that work instead of going into detail about 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:27.680 the course here. But briefly, Shinnacock represents everything William Flynn 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:36.119 believed in and did well, routing, naturalism, restraint, strategy, challenge, 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:41.079 green designs, it's all there in Shinnecock Hills, and it's 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:45.760 one of the most complete golf courses that anyone ever built. 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:50.600 Okay on to number two, and I've reserved this slot 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:54.920 for a Pennsylvania course. Pennsylvania and the Philadelphia area in 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:59.680 particular were Flynn's home base, and he built many great 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:03.680 golf courses in that region. So the one I've chosen 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:08.240 to represent all of those is Huntington Valley Country Club, 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:13.440 which is about fifteen miles north of downtown Philadelphia. This 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:19.040 course really shows William Flynn's mastery of routing above all, 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:23.040 the course consists of twenty seven holes, but the best 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:27.240 known nines are the Toomey and Flynn nines. These holes 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:31.880 sit in a big valley with really nice rolling topography. 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:36.600 The Toomey nine, which is named after William Flynn's longtime 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:42.760 construction superintendent Howard Toomey, moves counterclockwise around the outside of 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:46.560 the property on the high ground of the valley, while 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:49.880 the Flynn nine drops down to the center of the 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:55.320 valley and moves clockwise. So essentially it's a version of 0:03:55.440 --> 0:04:01.120 Harry Colt's outside inside routing at Meerfield, and Flynn just 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:05.200 executes it brilliantly. You get all kinds of different lies 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:10.119 in the fairway, uphill, downhill, sidehill, and then to top 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:12.840 it all off, the course has some of the best 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:17.640 inland agronomy anywhere. The club has been a big advocate 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:23.239 of minimalistic, low input organic turf maintenance, and the place 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:27.120 just plays so firm and fast. It's an incredibly well 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:30.720 presented Golden Age golf course and very much represents what 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:34.240 Flynn would have wanted. So that's why I've picked Huntington 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:39.080 Valley among all of Flynn's excellent designs in Pennsylvania. But 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:42.159 I definitely could have gone with any one of several 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:47.559 other courses including Philadelphia Country Club, Rolling Green Golf Club, 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:53.159 Manufacturers Golf and Country Club, Lehigh Country Club, Lancaster Country Club, 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:58.159 all fantastic, all have an argument to be on this list. 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:02.120 But for now I'm going to leave Pennsylvania and go 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:05.479 to my third selection, which is going to be The 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:10.400 Country Club, not in Brookline, but in Pepper Pike, Ohio, 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:14.599 a great and very underrated golf course. What I find 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:18.960 most notable about Country as it's called, is the way 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:23.240 that it uses a unique set of landforms. The property 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:27.240 is defined by a system of creeks, and over the centuries, 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:31.520 these creeks have carved out a series of big ledges. 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:38.039 Flynn's routing really zeros in on these ledges. Sometimes you 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:41.560 tee off from them, Sometimes you play into greens up 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:46.040 on top of them. Sometimes fairways run along the edges 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:50.159 of them. Sometimes holes just kind of, you know, leapfrog 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:56.279 over them. This is an outstanding example of Flynn's ability 0:05:56.320 --> 0:06:01.520 to recognize and maximize the best assets of a given site, 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:05.839 and especially after a recent historical renovation by Gil Hants, 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:09.479 the country club certainly deserves to be seen as one 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:13.320 of Flynn's essential designs. All Right, for my fourth pick, 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:18.480 I'm going east to the Catansit Club in Marion, Massachusetts. 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:22.880 This is a delightful seaside course. The most photographed hole 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:26.200 is the par three third, where the green is built 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:29.400 up directly from the beach, but the rest of the 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:33.520 course is a lot more subtle and ground hugging. And 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:36.800 the reason I've included it in this list is that 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:40.680 I think it shows William Flynn in a different mode. 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:47.400 Flynn is rightfully associated with big browny championship tests on 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:52.000 big bronny pieces of land, but Catansit is very much 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:56.279 a member course. It's not super long, it's pretty much flat. 0:06:56.720 --> 0:07:00.719 There's some chocolate drop mounding, constructed out of rocks that 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:03.800 were cleared out from the center lines of holes, has 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:06.680 a very old school feel, and this is partly due 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:10.560 to the person who constructed it, Frederick could so not 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:15.840 Flynn's usual construction Guy Howard Toomey, and so the course 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:19.240 has a different look and feel than most of Flynn's courses. 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:24.280 And yet the way that the course generates variety from 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:28.760 hole to hole is unmistakably Flynn. Each of the par 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:33.360 three's is immediately distinct from the others, and the longer 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:39.400 holes are always moving in unexpected ways, dog legs, diagonals, 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:44.080 all the things that Flynn love to do. Fifth and final, 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:48.360 William Flynn design that I'm going to mention is outside 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:53.400 of Miami, Florida. It's Indian Creek country Club. So this 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.960 was a last minute addition. Full disclosure, I actually had 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:00.360 Cherry Hill's Country Club in this spot, and before that 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:03.280 I had Lancaster Country Club. Either of those would have 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:08.120 been justifiable choices, I think, But my guest for this episode, 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:11.720 Jim Nagel, convinced me that Indian Creek was the way 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:16.520 to go because it shows what Flynn could do on 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:20.440 a blank canvas. Indian Creek was built on a man 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:24.240 made island and there was just nothing for Flynn to 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:27.920 work with. He had to manufacture everything out of whole cloth, 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:32.480 and that was a big challenge to his governing philosophy, 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:37.280 which was to take inspiration first and foremost from the land. 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:42.319 So in that context, the results at Indian Creek are 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:46.200 very impressive and interesting. There's a lot of variety, some 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:51.719 very cool smaller scale undulations, very interesting bunkering patterns and 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:56.960 strategic whole concepts, and some brilliant greens. So the fundamentals 0:08:57.000 --> 0:09:01.440 are the same, even though the starting point was very 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:06.400 unusual for William Flynn. So those are my five essential 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:09.120 Flynn golf courses. I've already gone over some of the 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:13.480 honorable mentions, but I also want to recognize that none 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:17.240 of the ones I've mentioned are public. There just aren't 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:22.440 that many well preserved Flynn public courses. I would love 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:26.920 to see a proper restoration at Cascades in West Virginia. 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:30.600 That's an amazing course that deserves to be on this list, 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:34.839 but it needs some attention. And then we have Rock 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:38.960 Creek Park in Washington, d C. A wonderful municipal property 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:42.840 managed by the National Links Trust and about to undergo 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:47.080 a major improvement project by Gil Hans, so I'm hoping 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:49.720 that that turns out well. The intention there is not 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:54.040 necessarily to restore the original Flynn course, but instead to 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:58.240 introduce some Flynn inspired elements and also develop some other 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:02.480 facilities for the local community. There an understandable approach, but 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:05.800 I think that gil Hans is just as capable as 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:11.480 anybody of producing holes that seem like Flynn holes but 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:14.480 are in fact his own invention. So looking forward to that. 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:19.760 But my picks for now are Shinnecock Hills, Huntington Valley, 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:24.920 the Country Club in Ohio, the Catansit Club, and Indian Creek. 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:29.000 Let me know what you think, all right, Time to 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:33.920 dig a little deeper into William Flynn's career and design approach. 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:37.920 And to do that, let's bring on Jim Nagel. Jim 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:42.839 is an architect specializing in restoration and renovation. For twenty 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:46.000 five years, he worked with Ron Force, one of the 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:50.480 og restoration architects in America, and while he was at 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:54.600 Force Design, he led a number of restoration projects at 0:10:54.640 --> 0:11:01.080 William Flynn courses in Pennsylvania, including Philadelphia Country clubanchaster country Club, 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:07.439 Rolling Green Conquered and Manufacturers. Two years ago, Jim established 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.760 his own firm, Nagel Design Works, and he's already working 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:15.760 at three Flynn Designs in Pennsylvania, the Country Club of Harrisburg, 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:19.920 Eaglesmere and Bala Country Club. So this is really a 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:23.760 specialty and a passion for Jim. So who better to 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:26.600 get into the nitty gritty of what makes a Flynn 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:31.520 golf course a Flynn golf course than Jim Nagel. Real quick, though, 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:35.360 before we get into my conversation with Jim, I want 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:38.120 to remind you that Father's Day is coming up. This 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:42.880 is an important reminder. Sometimes people forget. Sometimes I forget. Tomorrow, 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:45.959 June twelfth will be the last day of our Father's 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:49.760 Day promotion, So take advantage now and check your Father's 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:53.440 Day gifts off your list. Specifically, I'd recommend that you 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:57.920 buy the Friday Golf Volume one coffee table book, and 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:01.080 for a limited time, you get to use a free 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:03.840 hat with your purchase. Just add the hat of your 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:07.000 choice to your cart and it will be marked free 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:11.160 at checkout while supplies last, So don't miss out. Shop 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:14.720 now at pro shop dot the fried Egg dot com. 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:25.319 That's pro Shop dot the fried egg dot com. All right, 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:28.600 I'm here with Jim Nagel. Jim, thanks for coming on 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:29.200 the podcast. 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:32.439 Thank you for having me. Garrett. It's really good to 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:34.880 speak with you guys. So what a pleasure. 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:37.120 It's been a while. The last time we saw each 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:40.280 other in person was you know, back to just on 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:43.120 the on the heels of COVID times over in Lancaster 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:47.480 Country Club in Pennsylvania, a great course that you have 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.800 done some work on. And so it's good too, good 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:52.480 to speak with you again. And we're going to dig 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:57.280 into some William Flynn here you are as I understand it, 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:00.839 and correct me if I'm wrong. A Pennsylvania guy, you 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:02.760 grew up? Did you grow up? 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:04.960 It's funny I grew up in Pennsylvania. I was born 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:10.080 in Illinois. But you know, world's largest printing company, Donnellying, 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:13.520 which was located now in Chicago. Then they also had 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:17.000 some facilities down in Dwight. Decided they wanted to open 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:20.720 four plants in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. So at the age of four, 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:23.200 I moved to Lancaster and all of my formative years 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:25.880 were spent in Lancaster. And you know, other than some 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:28.120 time in school and living in Denver for the summers. 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:31.160 I'm kind of a true, tried and true Pennsylvania now. 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:34.679 Right, Okay, Now, obviously the state of Pennsylvania and the 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:40.440 Philadelphia area specifically were William Flynn's stomping grounds during the 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:43.040 golden edge of golf architecture. He is sort of the 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:47.640 undisputed king of golf architecture in that area. 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:49.200 Absolutely. 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:51.560 You know, when you look at the full body of work, like, 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:54.760 there's nobody who really who really comes close in that area. 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:59.480 Given that you have have lived most of your life 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:03.920 in pennsyl what were your earliest experiences with Flynn's work? 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:06.839 Was it at Lancaster and then? And did you did 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:08.920 you see his courses before you knew you wanted to 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:09.880 be a golf architect. 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:13.920 Interestingly enough, I always said, I've told this story. My 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:16.599 first exposure Lancaster Country Club was on top of the 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:20.480 swimming blocks, trying to look over the fence that was 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:25.240 where the current Punning Green is. That was my first exposure. 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:27.480 I kind of grew up more on the public courses 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:31.000 in and around Lancaster, and so my first exposure to 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:33.840 that was after I joined Ron and I went and 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:36.880 obviously that helped me have a little bit more access 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:40.000 to things. So I went and walked around Lancaster and 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:43.920 I want to say this was even before Gil might 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:47.040 have done his work in the late nineties early two thousands, 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:52.240 and it was just, you know, it was just a 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:55.840 pleasant walk on the golf course and still kind of 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:58.680 a little green and trying to understand what I was 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:02.240 looking at because that golf course was very heavily treated. 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:05.320 The Gordons at that time still had had a lot 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:07.400 of influence on the course because I believe they were 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:10.280 the ones that really came in after Flynn and had 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:14.000 sort of carried his mantle. And then Gil was just 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:16.600 starting to do some work there. And then my next 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:22.000 visit probably was about two thousand and four when they 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:26.400 decided that they were going to bring Force Design on 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:30.440 board and so we that's that was my first exposure 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:34.280 to Flynn at Leicester. But then also you know, joining 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:37.880 Ron nineteen ninety eight, you know, at that time he 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:40.520 had already been working with Indian Creek, he'd been working 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:45.280 a long time with Lehigh, So the Flynn education really 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:47.640 started early on with Ron, and of course, you know, 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:51.640 we were very heavy into ross. You know, there's almost 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:55.280 this whole movement of the re restoration of ross courses. 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:57.840 But when I joined Ron, you know, I think he 0:15:57.960 --> 0:15:59.920 at that point in the late nineties had you know, 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.400 been working on thirty five thirty six Ross courses. So 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:05.880 we were very heavily steeped in Ross and Flynn. 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:09.360 Now when you say joining Ron, you of course mean 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:13.240 joining Ron Force. Yes, of Force designed there were two 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:16.120 rons who'd restored an awful lot of Donald Ross courses 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:19.720 in in the eighties and nineties, Ron Pritchard and Ron Force. 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:23.560 But you worked with Ron Force for for I guess 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:26.840 twenty five years, for a quarter century. Yeah, I worked 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:31.560 on many many golf courses, including quite a few Flynn courses. 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:34.160 I would say, I'm not sure how many people have 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:38.840 worked at more Flynn courses. I suppose Gil Hans, Ron 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:42.520 Force and you are, you know, have have have locked 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:43.800 up a lot of numbers there. 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:49.760 It's funny, I want to say, you know Flynn originals 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:51.880 or you know, Flynn had a heavy hand in the 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:54.200 spring Haven club, even did some work at Sunny Hannah. 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:57.480 And you know, I think it was like fourteen clubs 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:00.760 that I could say that I was collaborated with worked 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:03.960 with Ron and or was the lead architect, and a 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:06.800 lot of that happened by accident, because it got to 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:08.960 the point where when Ron and I were working together 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:11.639 and I was starting to assume the lead role on 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:14.160 projects where he had enough trust in me to do that, 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:16.680 I was driving. It was like a lot of the 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:18.600 projects that we'd drive to, and we were based out 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:23.520 of southwestern Pennsylvania below Pittsburgh, he'd fly. Well, that just 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:25.640 kind of lent itself to all of a sudden, I'm 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:28.120 going over Philly and I'm doing Lancaster, and I started, 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:31.840 you know, I took over Philly Country and conquered and Manny's, 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:34.040 and you know, I spent thirteen years at Rolling Green, 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:37.679 you know, just really being exposed to these great Flynn 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:41.160 golf courses. And there was always that one exception, which 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:43.440 was Lehigh, which to this day, you know, Ron has 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:45.320 done such an incredible job at Lee and I He's 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:48.360 got a great relationship with them. But for the most part, 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:50.680 I started taking over all these other projects just by 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:52.840 circumstance of where they were located. 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:55.760 Right. You ended up being the lead on so many 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:59.840 of these great flint courses in and around Philadelphia and 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.080 That's obviously a big reason why I'm excited to talk 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:07.199 with you about about William Flynn's design style and his 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:09.520 and his work overall. There there are a few people 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:12.760 who have more experience with it. Now, when you're restoring 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:19.399 a Flynn course, what kind of historical evidence is most 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:21.960 meaningful to you? You know, do you put a lot 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:26.159 of stock in his plans or do you prefer to 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:30.000 rely on historical photographs? And this question is really getting 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:33.919 at you know, Flynn's Flynn's working process, right, Is he 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:36.919 was he a I know, he came up with beautiful plans, 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:40.399 some of the most beautiful plans of his era, but 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:43.000 I also get the sense that he was willing to 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:44.520 kind of change things up in the field. 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:46.679 Is this this is the iomic debate? 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:50.840 Yeah? Well, well yeah, I mean that the debate certainly 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:53.879 came up during during Ironomic because there are two different 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:57.480 Ironomic restorations that kind of follow those two philosophies. But yeah, 0:18:57.520 --> 0:18:58.800 when it comes to Flynn. 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:05.080 One hundred percent photos. Okay, because of the Philadelphia area, 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:08.119 we have the donalind photographs, we have the archives and 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:11.719 Philadelphia itself, there is a website and the photos are 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:14.240 not you know, their resolution is not very good, but 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:17.119 they have nineteen twenty eight photos for most of the 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:20.399 areas around in the city. That's a lot earlier than 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:21.760 what we always used to be able to get down 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:24.400 into the federal archives, which is typically nineteen thirty eight. 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:26.920 And then, of course, you know historic areas, we start 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:31.120 picking things up in the nineteen forties. I'm always looking. 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:34.440 I'm trying to find those earliest aerial photos because Flynn, 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:38.400 in reality, like the plan at Lancaster, the plan for Lancaster, 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:40.320 he didn't have too mey with him when he started there. 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:42.440 I don't know if he sketched the plan or whatever. 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:46.879 It's very rudimentary. It's nineteen nineteen. Yet he was changing 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:49.600 that course not long after that. His plan for Philadelphia 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:54.240 Country Club nineteen twenty six. Plan opens in twenty seven, 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:58.399 aerial photo in twenty eight. By the early thirties, they're 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:01.359 already making changes to the guy. Of course, then in 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:04.359 preparation for the US Open in nineteen thirty nine, he 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:08.359 has a type document of his recommended changes, plus the 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:12.119 aerial photos to confirm that. So it really depends on 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:16.919 one what's the club looking for? You know, do you 0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:19.800 know Philly set here at nineteen thirty nine. Aerial photos, 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:23.119 that's what we want. Lancaster had evolved through the years, 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:25.359 and so Lancaster we could look at some of the 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:28.160 photos and we didn't really have any really good plans, 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:32.000 so we had to go to photo documentation other places. 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:35.040 One phenomenal golf course that's evolved through the years is 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:38.439 Conquered Country Clubs. It would be listed as Briton Lakes. 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:42.120 We thought it was a rass course. The features were 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:46.320 such a departure from what Flynn would do that we 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:48.880 were mistaken. Ron forst and I am like ninety nine, 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:51.639 two thousand and then literally, as Wayne Marson and Tommy 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:56.359 Paul are building their archives for the Nature Faker, I'm 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:59.040 in Wayne's house in a different room than Ron and 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:02.159 Wayne and Tommy another gentleman, and I find these plans 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:05.480 for Britain Lakes and it was like, oh my. So 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:07.439 all of a sudden we started to have plans that 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:09.639 confirmed some of the early photos and we knew it 0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:12.119 was Flynn. So all of a sudden we did a 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:15.600 complete one eighty and we're like throw the Ross ideas, wait, 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:18.280 let's get back on Flinn. So for me personally, it's 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:21.119 a long answer to the sure question. It's all about 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:21.960 the photos for me. 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:26.960 Yeah, well, but it also seems like it's dependent on 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:30.480 on the situation. You know, the availability of photos is 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:34.919 sort of inconsistent. You mentioned Wayne Morrison and Tom Paul's 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:38.440 work on William Flynn and the importance of that to 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:41.240 your work at Conquered, and I guess it is pronounced 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:44.640 Conquered like the one in Massachusetts. 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:48.000 Yeah, just like Lancaster is Lancaster and the Rancaster. 0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:50.800 It can never be it can never be straightforward with 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:56.679 you people in the Northeast. But in any case, talk 0:21:56.720 --> 0:21:59.359 about the importance of of of the nature Faker and 0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:02.360 some of the kival work that Wayne Morrison and Tom 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:03.720 Paul did over the years. 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:06.600 It's really good because it does provide a missing link. 0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:09.840 Now again we go back to the dollar photograph. So 0:22:10.040 --> 0:22:14.320 in the Philadelphia market, we're very fortunate to have those 0:22:14.800 --> 0:22:18.919 because most times they have photos that were available before 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:22.800 clubs started making major changes to their golf courses. What 0:22:22.920 --> 0:22:27.399 Tommy Paul and Wayne's work has done for me personally 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:29.080 is as soon as I get a call from a 0:22:29.160 --> 0:22:31.720 Flint course, I'm going right to the nature figure and 0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:35.760 I'm gathering as much information as I can on that 0:22:35.800 --> 0:22:39.919 golf course. I don't want to say I'm different than 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:41.920 anyone else, but I learned, you know, I really learned 0:22:41.960 --> 0:22:45.800 this from Ron that Wayne and what Tom has done, 0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:50.719 and Brad Klein and Anthony Piappi. All these historians are 0:22:50.880 --> 0:22:53.920 really really good. But I truly believe that it's in 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:56.560 my interest that I'm the person that needs to know 0:22:56.640 --> 0:22:59.840 as much about that golf course as possible, as much 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:03.680 as the historians. So what Wayne and Tom's book have 0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:07.600 done for me is just to provide confirmation of maybe 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:10.200 what my thoughts are with what I'm seeing in photographs 0:23:10.200 --> 0:23:12.720 by backing it up with maybe written documentation that the 0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:17.440 club had plans that I never maybe had access to, 0:23:17.440 --> 0:23:21.040 to see what the thought process was, and just sort 0:23:21.080 --> 0:23:24.480 of the architectural evolution of that golf course. I remember 0:23:24.520 --> 0:23:27.680 the first time I read Wayne's portion on Lancaster, I 0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:30.840 felt like you needed a PhD to understand the routing 0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:33.600 changes and everything. And it wasn't until you truly understood 0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:35.800 the golf course that you could understand which hole was which, 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:38.720 what the routing was, and how things flipped around. But 0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:40.639 it's just an excellent archive for me. 0:23:41.400 --> 0:23:44.800 I feel the same about the various Shinnecock Hills routings. 0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:47.640 I mean, I still I mean, I'm in the middle 0:23:47.640 --> 0:23:49.400 of it right now. I still haven't figured it out. 0:23:50.240 --> 0:23:52.600 So I want to talk a little more generally now 0:23:52.640 --> 0:23:57.199 about Flynn's design style, such as it is. I'm not 0:23:57.240 --> 0:24:00.639 sure that the term style necessarily even applies here in 0:24:00.640 --> 0:24:03.920 the way that people think, And I've often had a 0:24:03.960 --> 0:24:07.560 hard time describing what it is that William Flynn does 0:24:07.640 --> 0:24:10.840 or what makes his courses distinctive. So I'm going to 0:24:10.880 --> 0:24:14.640 toss to you at what's probably a somewhat impossible question here, 0:24:14.680 --> 0:24:16.600 but I'm excited to see how you grapple with it. 0:24:17.160 --> 0:24:19.560 If you were to walk on to a random golf course, 0:24:19.960 --> 0:24:23.479 the providence of which you had no idea, right, what 0:24:23.760 --> 0:24:27.040 if anything is going to tell you that that course 0:24:27.119 --> 0:24:28.439 was designed by William Flynn. 0:24:29.359 --> 0:24:34.159 Tasteful restrain in the greens. Flynn just seemed to know. 0:24:35.480 --> 0:24:38.320 And again I'm gonna you guys did a great job 0:24:38.359 --> 0:24:40.480 on that Shinnacock Now podcast. 0:24:40.760 --> 0:24:41.320 Oh thank you. 0:24:41.480 --> 0:24:44.440 One thing you guys mentioned about the bunkering at Shinnacock 0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:48.879 was he knew when to bunker and when not to 0:24:48.920 --> 0:24:51.560