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Speaker 1: This is a big year for the golf architect William Flynn.

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Speaker 1: First we have the US Open at his masterpiece, shinnacowk Hills,

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Speaker 1: and then in August the US Amateur at Marion Golf Club,

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Speaker 1: where he led construction and served as superintendent. So in

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Speaker 1: this episode we're digging deep into what makes William Flynn

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Speaker 1: a great architect. I'm Garrett Morrison, and this is designing golf,

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Speaker 1: all right. Before we bring in Jim Nagel, let's talk

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Speaker 1: about the five essential William Flynn golf courses. Now, a

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Speaker 1: few caveats before we dive in here. One. These are

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Speaker 1: not necessarily Flynn's best courses or even my favorite Flynn courses.

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Speaker 1: These are just five courses that you could study and

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Speaker 1: come away with a pretty good understanding of Flynn's architecture.

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Speaker 1: And that leads into my second caveat, which is that

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of candidates for this list. In

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Speaker 1: William Flynn's body of work, he designed a ton of

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Speaker 1: very good to excellent courses. But there's really just one

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Speaker 1: automatic entry and you can probably guess what it is.

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Speaker 1: It's about to host a US Open. But the four

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Speaker 1: other slots could go to any of kind of like

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Speaker 1: fifteen golf courses probably, so these are just my picks

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Speaker 1: right now. I could easily be convinced to change them.

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Speaker 1: The final caveat is that I'm not including three extremely

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Speaker 1: famous golf courses that William Flynn contributed to but did

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Speaker 1: not design completely or on his own, and those are

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Speaker 1: Pine Valley, Marion and the Country Club at Brookline. Flynn

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Speaker 1: was an important influence on all of those courses, but

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Speaker 1: I'm focusing here on his solo designs, So let's get

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Speaker 1: into it. The first, first essential William Flynn golf course

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Speaker 1: is obviously Shinnecock Hills in Southampton, New York. Now Here

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Speaker 1: at Friday Golf, We've done a ton of content on

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Speaker 1: Shinnecock Hills recently. I just did a two hour podcast

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Speaker 1: last week on designing Golf about Shinnacock, so I'll refer

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Speaker 1: you to that work instead of going into detail about

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Speaker 1: the course here. But briefly, Shinnacock represents everything William Flynn

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Speaker 1: believed in and did well, routing, naturalism, restraint, strategy, challenge,

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Speaker 1: green designs, it's all there in Shinnecock Hills, and it's

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Speaker 1: one of the most complete golf courses that anyone ever built.

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Speaker 1: Okay on to number two, and I've reserved this slot

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Speaker 1: for a Pennsylvania course. Pennsylvania and the Philadelphia area in

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Speaker 1: particular were Flynn's home base, and he built many great

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Speaker 1: golf courses in that region. So the one I've chosen

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Speaker 1: to represent all of those is Huntington Valley Country Club,

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Speaker 1: which is about fifteen miles north of downtown Philadelphia. This

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Speaker 1: course really shows William Flynn's mastery of routing above all,

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Speaker 1: the course consists of twenty seven holes, but the best

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Speaker 1: known nines are the Toomey and Flynn nines. These holes

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Speaker 1: sit in a big valley with really nice rolling topography.

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Speaker 1: The Toomey nine, which is named after William Flynn's longtime

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Speaker 1: construction superintendent Howard Toomey, moves counterclockwise around the outside of

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Speaker 1: the property on the high ground of the valley, while

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Speaker 1: the Flynn nine drops down to the center of the

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Speaker 1: valley and moves clockwise. So essentially it's a version of

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Speaker 1: Harry Colt's outside inside routing at Meerfield, and Flynn just

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Speaker 1: executes it brilliantly. You get all kinds of different lies

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Speaker 1: in the fairway, uphill, downhill, sidehill, and then to top

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Speaker 1: it all off, the course has some of the best

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Speaker 1: inland agronomy anywhere. The club has been a big advocate

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Speaker 1: of minimalistic, low input organic turf maintenance, and the place

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Speaker 1: just plays so firm and fast. It's an incredibly well

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Speaker 1: presented Golden Age golf course and very much represents what

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Speaker 1: Flynn would have wanted. So that's why I've picked Huntington

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Speaker 1: Valley among all of Flynn's excellent designs in Pennsylvania. But

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Speaker 1: I definitely could have gone with any one of several

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Speaker 1: other courses including Philadelphia Country Club, Rolling Green Golf Club,

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Speaker 1: Manufacturers Golf and Country Club, Lehigh Country Club, Lancaster Country Club,

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Speaker 1: all fantastic, all have an argument to be on this list.

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Speaker 1: But for now I'm going to leave Pennsylvania and go

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Speaker 1: to my third selection, which is going to be The

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Speaker 1: Country Club, not in Brookline, but in Pepper Pike, Ohio,

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Speaker 1: a great and very underrated golf course. What I find

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Speaker 1: most notable about Country as it's called, is the way

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Speaker 1: that it uses a unique set of landforms. The property

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Speaker 1: is defined by a system of creeks, and over the centuries,

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Speaker 1: these creeks have carved out a series of big ledges.

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Speaker 1: Flynn's routing really zeros in on these ledges. Sometimes you

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Speaker 1: tee off from them, Sometimes you play into greens up

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Speaker 1: on top of them. Sometimes fairways run along the edges

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Speaker 1: of them. Sometimes holes just kind of, you know, leapfrog

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Speaker 1: over them. This is an outstanding example of Flynn's ability

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Speaker 1: to recognize and maximize the best assets of a given site,

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Speaker 1: and especially after a recent historical renovation by Gil Hants,

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Speaker 1: the country club certainly deserves to be seen as one

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Speaker 1: of Flynn's essential designs. All Right, for my fourth pick,

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Speaker 1: I'm going east to the Catansit Club in Marion, Massachusetts.

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Speaker 1: This is a delightful seaside course. The most photographed hole

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Speaker 1: is the par three third, where the green is built

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Speaker 1: up directly from the beach, but the rest of the

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Speaker 1: course is a lot more subtle and ground hugging. And

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Speaker 1: the reason I've included it in this list is that

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Speaker 1: I think it shows William Flynn in a different mode.

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Speaker 1: Flynn is rightfully associated with big browny championship tests on

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Speaker 1: big bronny pieces of land, but Catansit is very much

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Speaker 1: a member course. It's not super long, it's pretty much flat.

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Speaker 1: There's some chocolate drop mounding, constructed out of rocks that

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Speaker 1: were cleared out from the center lines of holes, has

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Speaker 1: a very old school feel, and this is partly due

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Speaker 1: to the person who constructed it, Frederick could so not

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Speaker 1: Flynn's usual construction Guy Howard Toomey, and so the course

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Speaker 1: has a different look and feel than most of Flynn's courses.

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Speaker 1: And yet the way that the course generates variety from

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Speaker 1: hole to hole is unmistakably Flynn. Each of the par

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Speaker 1: three's is immediately distinct from the others, and the longer

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Speaker 1: holes are always moving in unexpected ways, dog legs, diagonals,

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Speaker 1: all the things that Flynn love to do. Fifth and final,

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Speaker 1: William Flynn design that I'm going to mention is outside

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Speaker 1: of Miami, Florida. It's Indian Creek country Club. So this

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Speaker 1: was a last minute addition. Full disclosure, I actually had

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Speaker 1: Cherry Hill's Country Club in this spot, and before that

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Speaker 1: I had Lancaster Country Club. Either of those would have

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Speaker 1: been justifiable choices, I think, But my guest for this episode,

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Speaker 1: Jim Nagel, convinced me that Indian Creek was the way

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Speaker 1: to go because it shows what Flynn could do on

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Speaker 1: a blank canvas. Indian Creek was built on a man

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Speaker 1: made island and there was just nothing for Flynn to

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Speaker 1: work with. He had to manufacture everything out of whole cloth,

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Speaker 1: and that was a big challenge to his governing philosophy,

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Speaker 1: which was to take inspiration first and foremost from the land.

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Speaker 1: So in that context, the results at Indian Creek are

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Speaker 1: very impressive and interesting. There's a lot of variety, some

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Speaker 1: very cool smaller scale undulations, very interesting bunkering patterns and

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Speaker 1: strategic whole concepts, and some brilliant greens. So the fundamentals

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Speaker 1: are the same, even though the starting point was very

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Speaker 1: unusual for William Flynn. So those are my five essential

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Speaker 1: Flynn golf courses. I've already gone over some of the

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Speaker 1: honorable mentions, but I also want to recognize that none

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Speaker 1: of the ones I've mentioned are public. There just aren't

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Speaker 1: that many well preserved Flynn public courses. I would love

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Speaker 1: to see a proper restoration at Cascades in West Virginia.

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Speaker 1: That's an amazing course that deserves to be on this list,

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Speaker 1: but it needs some attention. And then we have Rock

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Speaker 1: Creek Park in Washington, d C. A wonderful municipal property

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Speaker 1: managed by the National Links Trust and about to undergo

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Speaker 1: a major improvement project by Gil Hans, so I'm hoping

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Speaker 1: that that turns out well. The intention there is not

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Speaker 1: necessarily to restore the original Flynn course, but instead to

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Speaker 1: introduce some Flynn inspired elements and also develop some other

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Speaker 1: facilities for the local community. There an understandable approach, but

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Speaker 1: I think that gil Hans is just as capable as

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Speaker 1: anybody of producing holes that seem like Flynn holes but

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Speaker 1: are in fact his own invention. So looking forward to that.

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Speaker 1: But my picks for now are Shinnecock Hills, Huntington Valley,

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Speaker 1: the Country Club in Ohio, the Catansit Club, and Indian Creek.

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Speaker 1: Let me know what you think, all right, Time to

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Speaker 1: dig a little deeper into William Flynn's career and design approach.

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Speaker 1: And to do that, let's bring on Jim Nagel. Jim

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Speaker 1: is an architect specializing in restoration and renovation. For twenty

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Speaker 1: five years, he worked with Ron Force, one of the

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Speaker 1: og restoration architects in America, and while he was at

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Speaker 1: Force Design, he led a number of restoration projects at

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Speaker 1: William Flynn courses in Pennsylvania, including Philadelphia Country clubanchaster country Club,

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Speaker 1: Rolling Green Conquered and Manufacturers. Two years ago, Jim established

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Speaker 1: his own firm, Nagel Design Works, and he's already working

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Speaker 1: at three Flynn Designs in Pennsylvania, the Country Club of Harrisburg,

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Speaker 1: Eaglesmere and Bala Country Club. So this is really a

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Speaker 1: specialty and a passion for Jim. So who better to

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Speaker 1: get into the nitty gritty of what makes a Flynn

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Speaker 1: golf course a Flynn golf course than Jim Nagel. Real quick, though,

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Speaker 1: before we get into my conversation with Jim, I want

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Speaker 1: to remind you that Father's Day is coming up. This

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Speaker 1: is an important reminder. Sometimes people forget. Sometimes I forget. Tomorrow,

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Speaker 1: June twelfth will be the last day of our Father's

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Speaker 1: Day promotion, So take advantage now and check your Father's

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Speaker 1: Day gifts off your list. Specifically, I'd recommend that you

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Speaker 1: buy the Friday Golf Volume one coffee table book, and

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Speaker 1: That's pro Shop dot the fried egg dot com. All right,

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Speaker 1: I'm here with Jim Nagel. Jim, thanks for coming on

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Speaker 1: the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. Garrett. It's really good to

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Speaker 2: speak with you guys. So what a pleasure.

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Speaker 1: It's been a while. The last time we saw each

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Speaker 1: other in person was you know, back to just on

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Speaker 1: the on the heels of COVID times over in Lancaster

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Speaker 1: Country Club in Pennsylvania, a great course that you have

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Speaker 1: done some work on. And so it's good too, good

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Speaker 1: to speak with you again. And we're going to dig

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Speaker 1: into some William Flynn here you are as I understand it,

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Speaker 1: and correct me if I'm wrong. A Pennsylvania guy, you

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Speaker 1: grew up? Did you grow up?

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Speaker 2: It's funny I grew up in Pennsylvania. I was born

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Speaker 2: in Illinois. But you know, world's largest printing company, Donnellying,

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Speaker 2: which was located now in Chicago. Then they also had

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Speaker 2: some facilities down in Dwight. Decided they wanted to open

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Speaker 2: four plants in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. So at the age of four,

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Speaker 2: I moved to Lancaster and all of my formative years

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Speaker 2: were spent in Lancaster. And you know, other than some

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Speaker 2: time in school and living in Denver for the summers.

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Speaker 2: I'm kind of a true, tried and true Pennsylvania now.

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Speaker 1: Right, Okay, Now, obviously the state of Pennsylvania and the

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Speaker 1: Philadelphia area specifically were William Flynn's stomping grounds during the

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Speaker 1: golden edge of golf architecture. He is sort of the

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Speaker 1: undisputed king of golf architecture in that area.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: You know, when you look at the full body of work, like,

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Speaker 1: there's nobody who really who really comes close in that area.

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Speaker 1: Given that you have have lived most of your life

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Speaker 1: in pennsyl what were your earliest experiences with Flynn's work?

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Speaker 1: Was it at Lancaster and then? And did you did

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Speaker 1: you see his courses before you knew you wanted to

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Speaker 1: be a golf architect.

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Speaker 2: Interestingly enough, I always said, I've told this story. My

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Speaker 2: first exposure Lancaster Country Club was on top of the

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Speaker 2: swimming blocks, trying to look over the fence that was

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Speaker 2: where the current Punning Green is. That was my first exposure.

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Speaker 2: I kind of grew up more on the public courses

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Speaker 2: in and around Lancaster, and so my first exposure to

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Speaker 2: that was after I joined Ron and I went and

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Speaker 2: obviously that helped me have a little bit more access

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Speaker 2: to things. So I went and walked around Lancaster and

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Speaker 2: I want to say this was even before Gil might

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Speaker 2: have done his work in the late nineties early two thousands,

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Speaker 2: and it was just, you know, it was just a

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Speaker 2: pleasant walk on the golf course and still kind of

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Speaker 2: a little green and trying to understand what I was

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Speaker 2: looking at because that golf course was very heavily treated.

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Speaker 2: The Gordons at that time still had had a lot

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Speaker 2: of influence on the course because I believe they were

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Speaker 2: the ones that really came in after Flynn and had

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Speaker 2: sort of carried his mantle. And then Gil was just

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Speaker 2: starting to do some work there. And then my next

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Speaker 2: visit probably was about two thousand and four when they

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Speaker 2: decided that they were going to bring Force Design on

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Speaker 2: board and so we that's that was my first exposure

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Speaker 2: to Flynn at Leicester. But then also you know, joining

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Speaker 2: Ron nineteen ninety eight, you know, at that time he

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Speaker 2: had already been working with Indian Creek, he'd been working

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Speaker 2: a long time with Lehigh, So the Flynn education really

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Speaker 2: started early on with Ron, and of course, you know,

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Speaker 2: we were very heavy into ross. You know, there's almost

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Speaker 2: this whole movement of the re restoration of ross courses.

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Speaker 2: But when I joined Ron, you know, I think he

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Speaker 2: at that point in the late nineties had you know,

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Speaker 2: been working on thirty five thirty six Ross courses. So

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Speaker 2: we were very heavily steeped in Ross and Flynn.

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Speaker 1: Now when you say joining Ron, you of course mean

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Speaker 1: joining Ron Force. Yes, of Force designed there were two

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Speaker 1: rons who'd restored an awful lot of Donald Ross courses

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Speaker 1: in in the eighties and nineties, Ron Pritchard and Ron Force.

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Speaker 1: But you worked with Ron Force for for I guess

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Speaker 1: twenty five years, for a quarter century. Yeah, I worked

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Speaker 1: on many many golf courses, including quite a few Flynn courses.

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Speaker 1: I would say, I'm not sure how many people have

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Speaker 1: worked at more Flynn courses. I suppose Gil Hans, Ron

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Speaker 1: Force and you are, you know, have have have locked

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Speaker 1: up a lot of numbers there.

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Speaker 2: It's funny, I want to say, you know Flynn originals

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Speaker 2: or you know, Flynn had a heavy hand in the

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Speaker 2: spring Haven club, even did some work at Sunny Hannah.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I think it was like fourteen clubs

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Speaker 2: that I could say that I was collaborated with worked

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Speaker 2: with Ron and or was the lead architect, and a

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Speaker 2: lot of that happened by accident, because it got to

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Speaker 2: the point where when Ron and I were working together

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Speaker 2: and I was starting to assume the lead role on

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Speaker 2: projects where he had enough trust in me to do that,

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Speaker 2: I was driving. It was like a lot of the

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Speaker 2: projects that we'd drive to, and we were based out

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Speaker 2: of southwestern Pennsylvania below Pittsburgh, he'd fly. Well, that just

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Speaker 2: kind of lent itself to all of a sudden, I'm

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Speaker 2: going over Philly and I'm doing Lancaster, and I started,

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Speaker 2: you know, I took over Philly Country and conquered and Manny's,

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Speaker 2: and you know, I spent thirteen years at Rolling Green,

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Speaker 2: you know, just really being exposed to these great Flynn

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Speaker 2: golf courses. And there was always that one exception, which

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Speaker 2: was Lehigh, which to this day, you know, Ron has

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Speaker 2: done such an incredible job at Lee and I He's

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Speaker 2: got a great relationship with them. But for the most part,

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Speaker 2: I started taking over all these other projects just by

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Speaker 2: circumstance of where they were located.

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Speaker 1: Right. You ended up being the lead on so many

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Speaker 1: of these great flint courses in and around Philadelphia and

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Speaker 1: That's obviously a big reason why I'm excited to talk

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Speaker 1: with you about about William Flynn's design style and his

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Speaker 1: and his work overall. There there are a few people

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Speaker 1: who have more experience with it. Now, when you're restoring

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Speaker 1: a Flynn course, what kind of historical evidence is most

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Speaker 1: meaningful to you? You know, do you put a lot

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Speaker 1: of stock in his plans or do you prefer to

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Speaker 1: rely on historical photographs? And this question is really getting

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Speaker 1: at you know, Flynn's Flynn's working process, right, Is he

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Speaker 1: was he a I know, he came up with beautiful plans,

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Speaker 1: some of the most beautiful plans of his era, but

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Speaker 1: I also get the sense that he was willing to

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Speaker 1: kind of change things up in the field.

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Speaker 2: Is this this is the iomic debate?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, well yeah, I mean that the debate certainly

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Speaker 1: came up during during Ironomic because there are two different

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Speaker 1: Ironomic restorations that kind of follow those two philosophies. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: when it comes to Flynn.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent photos. Okay, because of the Philadelphia area,

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Speaker 2: we have the donalind photographs, we have the archives and

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Speaker 2: Philadelphia itself, there is a website and the photos are

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Speaker 2: not you know, their resolution is not very good, but

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Speaker 2: they have nineteen twenty eight photos for most of the

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Speaker 2: areas around in the city. That's a lot earlier than

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Speaker 2: what we always used to be able to get down

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Speaker 2: into the federal archives, which is typically nineteen thirty eight.

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Speaker 2: And then, of course, you know historic areas, we start

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Speaker 2: picking things up in the nineteen forties. I'm always looking.

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to find those earliest aerial photos because Flynn,

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Speaker 2: in reality, like the plan at Lancaster, the plan for Lancaster,

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Speaker 2: he didn't have too mey with him when he started there.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if he sketched the plan or whatever.

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Speaker 2: It's very rudimentary. It's nineteen nineteen. Yet he was changing

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Speaker 2: that course not long after that. His plan for Philadelphia

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Speaker 2: Country Club nineteen twenty six. Plan opens in twenty seven,

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Speaker 2: aerial photo in twenty eight. By the early thirties, they're

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Speaker 2: already making changes to the guy. Of course, then in

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Speaker 2: preparation for the US Open in nineteen thirty nine, he

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Speaker 2: has a type document of his recommended changes, plus the

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Speaker 2: aerial photos to confirm that. So it really depends on

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Speaker 2: one what's the club looking for? You know, do you

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Speaker 2: know Philly set here at nineteen thirty nine. Aerial photos,

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Speaker 2: that's what we want. Lancaster had evolved through the years,

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Speaker 2: and so Lancaster we could look at some of the

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Speaker 2: photos and we didn't really have any really good plans,

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Speaker 2: so we had to go to photo documentation other places.

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Speaker 2: One phenomenal golf course that's evolved through the years is

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Speaker 2: Conquered Country Clubs. It would be listed as Briton Lakes.

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Speaker 2: We thought it was a rass course. The features were

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Speaker 2: such a departure from what Flynn would do that we

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Speaker 2: were mistaken. Ron forst and I am like ninety nine,

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Speaker 2: two thousand and then literally, as Wayne Marson and Tommy

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Speaker 2: Paul are building their archives for the Nature Faker, I'm

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Speaker 2: in Wayne's house in a different room than Ron and

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Speaker 2: Wayne and Tommy another gentleman, and I find these plans

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Speaker 2: for Britain Lakes and it was like, oh my. So

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden we started to have plans that

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Speaker 2: confirmed some of the early photos and we knew it

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Speaker 2: was Flynn. So all of a sudden we did a

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Speaker 2: complete one eighty and we're like throw the Ross ideas, wait,

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Speaker 2: let's get back on Flinn. So for me personally, it's

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Speaker 2: a long answer to the sure question. It's all about

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Speaker 2: the photos for me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, but it also seems like it's dependent on

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Speaker 1: on the situation. You know, the availability of photos is

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Speaker 1: sort of inconsistent. You mentioned Wayne Morrison and Tom Paul's

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Speaker 1: work on William Flynn and the importance of that to

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Speaker 1: your work at Conquered, and I guess it is pronounced

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Speaker 1: Conquered like the one in Massachusetts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just like Lancaster is Lancaster and the Rancaster.

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Speaker 1: It can never be it can never be straightforward with

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Speaker 1: you people in the Northeast. But in any case, talk

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Speaker 1: about the importance of of of the nature Faker and

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Speaker 1: some of the kival work that Wayne Morrison and Tom

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Speaker 1: Paul did over the years.

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Speaker 2: It's really good because it does provide a missing link.

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Speaker 2: Now again we go back to the dollar photograph. So

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Speaker 2: in the Philadelphia market, we're very fortunate to have those

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Speaker 2: because most times they have photos that were available before

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Speaker 2: clubs started making major changes to their golf courses. What

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Speaker 2: Tommy Paul and Wayne's work has done for me personally

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Speaker 2: is as soon as I get a call from a

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Speaker 2: Flint course, I'm going right to the nature figure and

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Speaker 2: I'm gathering as much information as I can on that

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Speaker 2: golf course. I don't want to say I'm different than

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Speaker 2: anyone else, but I learned, you know, I really learned

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Speaker 2: this from Ron that Wayne and what Tom has done,

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Speaker 2: and Brad Klein and Anthony Piappi. All these historians are

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Speaker 2: really really good. But I truly believe that it's in

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Speaker 2: my interest that I'm the person that needs to know

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Speaker 2: as much about that golf course as possible, as much

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Speaker 2: as the historians. So what Wayne and Tom's book have

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Speaker 2: done for me is just to provide confirmation of maybe

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Speaker 2: what my thoughts are with what I'm seeing in photographs

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Speaker 2: by backing it up with maybe written documentation that the

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Speaker 2: club had plans that I never maybe had access to,

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Speaker 2: to see what the thought process was, and just sort

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Speaker 2: of the architectural evolution of that golf course. I remember

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Speaker 2: the first time I read Wayne's portion on Lancaster, I

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Speaker 2: felt like you needed a PhD to understand the routing

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Speaker 2: changes and everything. And it wasn't until you truly understood

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Speaker 2: the golf course that you could understand which hole was which,

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Speaker 2: what the routing was, and how things flipped around. But

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Speaker 2: it's just an excellent archive for me.

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Speaker 1: I feel the same about the various Shinnecock Hills routings.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I still I mean, I'm in the middle

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Speaker 1: of it right now. I still haven't figured it out.

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Speaker 1: So I want to talk a little more generally now

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Speaker 1: about Flynn's design style, such as it is. I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure that the term style necessarily even applies here in

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Speaker 1: the way that people think, And I've often had a

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Speaker 1: hard time describing what it is that William Flynn does

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Speaker 1: or what makes his courses distinctive. So I'm going to

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Speaker 1: toss to you at what's probably a somewhat impossible question here,

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Speaker 1: but I'm excited to see how you grapple with it.

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Speaker 1: If you were to walk on to a random golf course,

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Speaker 1: the providence of which you had no idea, right, what

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Speaker 1: if anything is going to tell you that that course

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Speaker 1: was designed by William Flynn.

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Speaker 2: Tasteful restrain in the greens. Flynn just seemed to know.

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Speaker 2: And again I'm gonna you guys did a great job

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Speaker 2: on that Shinnacock Now podcast.

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Speaker 1: Oh thank you.

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Speaker 2: One thing you guys mentioned about the bunkering at Shinnacock

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Speaker 2: was he knew when to bunker and when not to

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Speaker 2: bunker and let the land dictate what was going on.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's one market thing that you could

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Speaker 2: pick up on a slim golf course. He could Philadelphia

404
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Speaker 2: Country Club had almost one hundred eighty thousand square feet

405
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Speaker 2: of bunker surface area. That's a lot for of course

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Speaker 2: not located in Florida. But yet then you can go

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Speaker 2: to an eagles mirror where he had rolling topography and

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Speaker 2: rocky material and there was one fairly bump, but the

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Speaker 2: course was still magnificent in its own right. But also

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Speaker 2: if you go to the greens, okay, one telltale sign

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Speaker 2: and I did say that Conquered sort of threw us off.

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Speaker 2: But he would almost have three high points on the dial.

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Speaker 2: But those high points were never in the same spot.

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Speaker 2: Like Tilling has to always oftentimes picked up the back

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Speaker 2: corners of his greens and you know, maybe the middle undulated. Flynn,

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Speaker 2: it was just it was like rotating them. It was like,

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Speaker 2: you know, yo to the baseball game. It's like guess

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Speaker 2: where the nut is under the cup, you know, and

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Speaker 2: they're rotating that around. It's like Flynn doing the same

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Speaker 2: thing on his greens. And what's interesting is when we

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Speaker 2: talk about the Philly School and the evolution. And I

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Speaker 2: told you I'm here at Warwick Hills. Warwick Kills was

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Speaker 2: redesigned in nineteen sixty nine by Joe Lee. Joe Lee

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Speaker 2: worked for Dick Wilson. I had the good fortune of

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Speaker 2: opening up and see our north last weekend. I'm working

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Speaker 2: at another Dick Wilson golf course, Medowrook Club. You can

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Speaker 2: see the evolution of Flynn and his designs in through

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Speaker 2: Joe Lee's work, William and David Gordon's work, Dick Wilson's work,

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Speaker 2: Robert von Hagey at Booker Rio. It just bleeds through.

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Speaker 2: So one of the things I would look for for

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Speaker 2: more than anything is that idea of the greens. What

432
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 2: did those greens look like? Do they have? And he

433
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 2: did do some severe undulations on some courses, not to

434
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 2: the extent of Ross and Tilling has any others. You

435
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 2: guys nailed it when you talked about it. It was

436
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 2: more of a can't or you know, I like in

437
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 2: some of his greens more to Hugh Allison than the

438
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 2: other Golden Age architects. Yeah, and you know when Hugh

439
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 2: Allison would occasionally get some good undulation in there, but boy,

440
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 2: those greens were just they were so good that were subtle.

441
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 2: It was as if, and I've done this on a

442
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 2: number of golf courses, it says, when you're building a green,

443
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 2: you know you'll build it and stake it on a

444
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 2: ten by ten grid. I look at it and make sure,

445
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 2: if I'm on a ten by ten grid, that the

446
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 2: four slopes that form the box plus the diagonals are

447
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 2: never the same. They are constantly changing from box to

448
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 2: box to box. And I think that's what Flynn did.

449
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 2: Now they had the luxury of building a green and

450
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 2: letting it sit for a period of time. They didn't

451
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 2: have the time constraints that we have, so the wind

452
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 2: and the rain and the erosion would form some of

453
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,959
Speaker 2: those things. So I've kind of taken and said, well,

454
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 2: if we have to accelerate it, let's just make sure

455
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 2: in that subgrade or the surface that it is just

456
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 2: constantly changing. Pete Die always said change the rate of change.

457
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,199
Speaker 2: I'll do the same thing in the greens and make

458
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 2: sure the high points are rotating and converging slopes. And

459
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 2: you got William Flynn.

460
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 1: That's very interesting. Three high points? Was he using those?

461
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 1: Do you think as pinnable areas, or was it just

462
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 1: kind of an I don't know, why do you think I.

463
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 2: Think I was forming the horizons of his greens and

464
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 2: forming the perimeters of his greens, because it was The

465
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 2: beautiful thing was it was never that they were always

466
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 2: to the perimeter. Like there could be a high point

467
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 2: that was internal. Let's let's take the dit so let's

468
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 2: have a green that's just going straight up. There might

469
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 2: be one that's offset at one o'clock. And let's say

470
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 2: the one at one o'clock. Because it was an uphill hole.

471
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 2: He wanted you to see the back of the green. Okay,

472
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 2: so you saw the back. So he took the green

473
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 2: up on to that high point, and then there were

474
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 2: two bunkers, say left and right. The left bunkers say

475
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 2: ended at nine o'clock, but that high point was external completely.

476
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 2: So the green kind of swept up on the slope

477
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 2: but stopped the back when it went up on it.

478
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 2: And then the next thing, you know, say at five o'clock,

479
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 2: there's a high point that is completely internal to the green.

480
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 2: So it was they were changing the way they were

481
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 2: around the greens. But they could be internal external, or

482
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 2: you could have two external one internal you know it

483
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,719
Speaker 2: was to me, it was it was beautiful and if

484
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 2: you if you set foot on a William Gordon green,

485
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 2: Gordon did the same thing, but now the construction game

486
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 2: was changing. He took Flynn's high point and like almost

487
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 2: doubled them, so the undulations were much larger. That was

488
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 2: the one thing at Philadelphia Country Club, their eighteenth green,

489
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 2: William Gordon built that same premise three high points. But

490
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 2: I'm telling you that that he probably added a foot

491
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 2: to a foot and a half above where Flynn would

492
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 2: have ended, and the undulations were just too much on

493
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:48,959
Speaker 2: those greens.

494
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: It's almost like having having a principle of green construction

495
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,239
Speaker 1: that allows you to build a functional green while at

496
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: the same time allowing room for variety, for changing it

497
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: up so that the player doesn't notice that you're kind

498
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 1: of using the same principle in a way.

499
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 2: Well, and here's the thing, and I you know, I

500
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 2: don't know what Wayne would say to my flought my

501
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 2: thoughts here, Flinn, you guys were on and I apologize

502
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 2: some people may not listen to the Shinnecock podcast.

503
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: You're referring to the podcast that we just did on

504
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 1: Design Golf before where I talked to Matt Rusius, my colleague,

505
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: about the course, and then talked to Bob Crosby's about

506
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: some of the historical issues.

507
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 2: And so I got to give if you got to

508
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 2: listen to it, it's really good just about Shinnecock. It

509
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 2: was about the evolution of American golf design. But in

510
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 2: that you've talked about the template holes and C. B

511
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 2: McDonald and Rayner and all this. Flynn seemed to be

512
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 2: one of the architects who was least concerned with a

513
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 2: repetition of a theme. But yet he did so many

514
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 2: of his par three that would be the other thing.

515
00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 2: Your question was, what would I look for? It's the

516
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 2: par three, so many of his part three's, and one

517
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 2: of the best golf courses people talk about is Rolling Green.

518
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 2: Every one of Rolling Green's par threes is benched into

519
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 2: a hillside with either a single bunker high duet low,

520
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 2: duet high single low single high four low. You know

521
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 2: he that was a repetition that he did. You go

522
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 2: to Philadelphia Country Club, The seventh hole does that? The

523
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 2: fifteenth pole does that? Lancaster has their eight pole Part three,

524
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 2: whether he has a long diagonal on the outside left

525
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 2: and a single bunker on the right, you.

526
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: Know, and eleven at Hinnacock maybe.

527
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 2: To eleven eleven absolutely fantastic golf hole, you know, two

528
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 2: and eleven at Chinnacok. It he just seemed to say, Okay,

529
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 2: these are the sites to you know, these are the

530
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 2: part three sites that I want to use. And he

531
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 2: also oftentimes he did I think Ron just did an

532
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 2: article on golf die just or something on the tenth

533
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 2: hole at or it was a USGA journal, the tenth

534
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 2: hole at Marion, which obviously was Flynn was probably very

535
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 2: instrumental in that because that's when the hole came back

536
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 2: across the road and is where it's at now and

537
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 2: it's that short dog leg left where similar things at

538
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 2: sixteen at Leicester, number one at Philly, which was the

539
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 2: sixteenth pole at Philly, I believe it's the fourth, and

540
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 2: Huntington Valley, the twelfth at Pine Valley, the seventh of

541
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 2: Cherry Hills. They are all different iterations of this same philosophy.

542
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 2: But you know, those are some of the things, key

543
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 2: things I might be looking for.

544
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: This episode of Designing Golf is brought to you by

545
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 1: the Golf Superintendent's Association of America. Or GCSAA. This partnership

546
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense for Friday Golf. Really, our

547
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: company would not exist in its current form without the

548
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: help of superintendents. You know, we go to a lot

549
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:01,959
Speaker 1: of courses. We try to learn as much as we

550
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: can about those golf courses, and the best resources for

551
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: us over the years have been superintendents. GCSAA supports more

552
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: than twenty one thousand members worldwide, not only superintendents actually,

553
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 1: but also equipment managers, students and educators. Celebrating its one

554
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 1: hundredth anniversary this year, GCSAA continues to ensure that its

555
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: members are on the forefront of research, education, innovation, and

556
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 1: advocacy through a range of programs and services. To learn more,

557
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: go to GCSAA dot org. Check it out. Great organization

558
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: and we're very proud to be working with them. All right,

559
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: let's get back to Jim Nagel. So I think, as

560
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: we've mentioned a couple of times, Flynn had a memorable

561
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: nickname that he gave himself, the nature Fake. What do

562
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: you think it is about Flynn's designs that make them

563
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,800
Speaker 1: so natural looking? What were kind of the architectural methods

564
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 1: behind naturalism as he practiced it on his golf course.

565
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 2: And I think I think it's three things. It was

566
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: his routings, okay, and how he used the land in

567
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 2: those routings, and therefore then the trickle down effect of

568
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 2: then citing the green It was, I think too, also

569
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 2: the fact that on some of his projects he didn't

570
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 2: necessarily bunker it exactly the way he wanted it. He

571
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 2: allowed the course to evolve, he watched people play, and

572
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 2: then he came back and he would bunker according to that.

573
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 2: But he always seemed to because of how he routed

574
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,760
Speaker 2: the holes. A number of his bunkers never seemed forced,

575
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 2: they seemed to fit in beautifully. And then I just

576
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 2: think it's a his green sights because of their overall appearance,

577
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 2: never seemed contrived, never seemed too tricked up. They just

578
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 2: they just fit. And and I think that might be why,

579
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 2: you know, he takes on this this moniker of the

580
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 2: nature figure. And his use of the water too. I

581
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 2: never thought about that before, but you know, a lot

582
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 2: of guys would sort of shy away from water. He

583
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 2: seemed to welcome it and his greens, his green positionings,

584
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 2: I think the thirteenth at Lehigh, the eleventh at Lee High,

585
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 2: Lancaster's twelfth, Lancaster's sixth, A couple of the holes at

586
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 2: at manufacturers he was he wasn't afraid to use that.

587
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 2: And I you know there's there's the par three that country.

588
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 2: Oh shoot yeah, Pepper Country covered Pepper Pike when the

589
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 2: guilded a couple years ago. I want to say five

590
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 2: or was just this beautiful ridge and just the way

591
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 2: he positioned it on here and then you go right

592
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 2: next door to the pepper like club that has that

593
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,479
Speaker 2: wash maybe lack of a better term of Baranca moving

594
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 2: through there and how he used that land. I think

595
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 2: that that in many ways allowed him to have that

596
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 2: name of the nature fake or that he just we

597
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 2: go back to the original thing where I talked about restrain.

598
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 2: He knew how to restrain himself. I think from doing

599
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 2: too much where whether it was other classic architects where

600
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 2: more modern architects today it's more of an ego driven

601
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 2: type thing where they have to do more, have to

602
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 2: do more, have to do more. I don't think he

603
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 2: felt the need to do so.

604
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,760
Speaker 1: Or a client driven thing. You know, this course needs

605
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 1: to to pop. I often when I look at William

606
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 1: Flynn's courses, that I often think nobody would be able

607
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 1: to build this way now because it is so subtle,

608
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 1: it's so restrained. The word that comes to mind for

609
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 1: me is effortlessness.

610
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah. And you know it's interesting how you

611
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,320
Speaker 2: just explained that, because many years ago, Ron Whitten and

612
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 2: I some courses together and we looked at Philly Country

613
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 2: and then we went over to Lancaster and part of

614
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,399
Speaker 2: that tour was because Lancaster at one time had been

615
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 2: in the Golf Digest top one hundred, so here all

616
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 2: of this work had been done, but Lancaster was not

617
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 2: making any headway in the rankings. And that could be

618
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 2: a whole other conversation about rankings, but Ron Wenten described

619
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 2: it wonderfully because you know, he was the guy that

620
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 2: really started this whole rankings thing, and he said, the

621
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 2: thing about William Flynn is in rankings, especially Golf Digest

622
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 2: at that time before things started to be revamped, was

623
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 2: it was more about the show. It was more about

624
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 2: that first impression. And he said that doesn't mean William

625
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 2: flynn golf courses are not great. It just means that

626
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 2: a lot of Golf Digest raiders see a golf course

627
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 2: once and that's it where William Flynn. It's an intelligent

628
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,280
Speaker 2: golf course. You have to go back time and time

629
00:37:55,480 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 2: again to truly understand that golf course. And you know,

630
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 2: I rebuilt a couple holes at Conquered Country Club. They

631
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 2: had Jeffrey Cornish come in and they sold some land

632
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,879
Speaker 2: and corners came in and we took a part five

633
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 2: and turned it into a four or three. The three

634
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,240
Speaker 2: was inspired by not copied, but inspired by the eleventh

635
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 2: at Shinnikok, and the fourteenth was just our own, my

636
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 2: own thing. But I went and studied, you know, I

637
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 2: was kind of looking at greens at Indian Creek and

638
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 2: Lehigh and the best thing I ever got compliment I

639
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 2: got back was from a person that was on the

640
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:34,720
Speaker 2: green committee where he said, you know, I've been playing

641
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 2: this green for three years and I still can't figure

642
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:40,240
Speaker 2: it out. But it is a very subtle looking green.

643
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,359
Speaker 2: So I felt like, Okay, then we hit the mark

644
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 2: with Flint and what he would have done, not that

645
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 2: we really could know what he'd do.

646
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,879
Speaker 1: Today, Well you look at his holes and you think, oh, well,

647
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 1: that's just what was there. But it takes a few

648
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: times to realize that all the features have a strategic

649
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 1: function as well, you know, because all therategic moments are

650
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: not are not you know, signposted or put in put

651
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 1: in bright lights for you that it's just part of

652
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: the landscape. But then as you as you play the chorus,

653
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 1: you realize, Okay, these these things are acting on my

654
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 1: ball and influencing play in in a in a certain way.

655
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 2: And so it's and I think that's why. I think

656
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,839
Speaker 2: that's why, you know, the culmination of his career and

657
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 2: the best of his careers be what's on showcase. You

658
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,760
Speaker 2: know what's going to be showcased next week. And because

659
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 2: of the strategy, the use of the land, the variety

660
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,839
Speaker 2: all of those different things in the greens I think

661
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 2: is I personally, I always have the plan for Shinnecock

662
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 2: next to my desk, and it doesn't matter whether I'm

663
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 2: working on a renovation or restoration or even what architect

664
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 2: Flynn's plan for Shinnecock. The bunkering concepts, the arrangements of bunkers, singles, duets,

665
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 2: you know sixteen has five lumped together there the greenside bunkering,

666
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 2: all of that is to me some of the best

667
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 2: golf course architecture that it doesn't matter what course you're

668
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 2: working on, or what the concepts may be, you can

669
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 2: just draw something from that.

670
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just a total masterclass.

671
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:22,399
Speaker 2: You know, Philly Philly Country to a certain degree. Also,

672
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 2: Philly Country was one of as Wayne has told me,

673
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 2: it was one of his favorites. And you know that

674
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 2: that golf course and how that evolved and the fact

675
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 2: that you know, Flynn was there originally opened the course up.

676
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 2: Within a few years. They weren't happy with some of

677
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 2: the greens. Flynn wasn't happy with some of the greens.

678
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 2: Maxwell comes in, rebuilds a couple of greens. Flynn comes back.

679
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 2: He's actually ticked at what had occurred because some of

680
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 2: the strategies that were intended were now gone. They rebuild

681
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 2: some greens again, they stop rebuilding the others. Then he

682
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 2: comes in in thirty seven for the Open and he

683
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 2: makes sugested change. And I was thinking that I had

684
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,359
Speaker 2: a lot of windshield time this week and already, and

685
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 2: I was thinking about those changes. And the interesting thing was,

686
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 2: I think whether it was player with or the width

687
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,359
Speaker 2: of the fairways. A lot of the bunkers that were

688
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 2: added in preparation for the thirty nine Open were the

689
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 2: elimination of bailout areas, and so the fact you know,

690
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 2: he he was I know, I think he was one

691
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 2: of the best best designers of that er, just didn't

692
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 2: have the personality of the others to jump to the forefront.

693
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 2: And then he died right after World War Two, so

694
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:33,879
Speaker 2: didn't help.

695
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: That's a factor too. But I think that also that

696
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 1: the fact that he doesn't get spoken of in the

697
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 1: same way that say McKenzie and McDonald do is partly

698
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 1: attributable to exactly what you're talking about. His restraint and

699
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:56,760
Speaker 1: his resistance to showing his architecture right, his courses really

700
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: don't don't show and so as a result, it's a

701
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 1: little bit hard to talk about, As I said when

702
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 1: I initially asked the question, it's a little bit hard

703
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 1: to talk about his style. It's not really a charismatic style.

704
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 1: They're just, you know, they're just really good golf courses.

705
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 2: But the interesting thing is, though, Okay, so we can

706
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,879
Speaker 2: talk about McKenzie or we can talk about Ross and

707
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:31,399
Speaker 2: but if you think about their impact overall, you can

708
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 2: actually say that Flynn's impact is still felt today in

709
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 2: his influence in architects because of the sort of the

710
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 2: passing down of the torch that there are still people

711
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:50,439
Speaker 2: that have a connection, you know, back to Flynn and

712
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,399
Speaker 2: Hugh and and really Flynn goes to Hugh Wilson. You know,

713
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 2: the epicenter of it all really is Hugh Wilson and

714
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 2: what Flynn learned from Wilson and then carry that torch on.

715
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:05,479
Speaker 2: You know, I'm I'm like, I'm on this run right now.

716
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 2: Of you know, I got Warwick Hills because of the

717
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 2: work at NCR. Well, what was the connection. Well, Joe

718
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,280
Speaker 2: Lee redesigned Warwick Hills. He built NCR in nineteen fifty

719
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 2: four with Dick Wilson. And then all of a sudden,

720
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 2: you know, there's the boker Rio Golf Club, which was

721
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 2: Robert von Haggie. Von Haggie was working for Wilson when

722
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 2: he was building Pine Tree. You know, there's there's all

723
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 2: these Flynn is still sort of webbed into all of

724
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 2: the fabric of a lot of golf today.

725
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a big Flynn design tree, Flynn and Toomey

726
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 1: design tree. And I mention for those who don't know

727
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: Howard Toomey was was Flynn's I don't know how to

728
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 1: describe it. The construction he was.

729
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:49,399
Speaker 2: The he was the Moreau to Langfort. Yeah it's good. Yeah,

730
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,399
Speaker 2: but yeah, he was like his construction foreman and I'm

731
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 2: sure engineer and did some many other things.

732
00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 1: All right. So in talking about Flynn's naturalism, you mentioned

733
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: his routing ability. I've heard you say that that Flynn

734
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 1: might be the greatest router of golf courses from the

735
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,399
Speaker 1: golden age of golf architecture. At least I believe I've

736
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 1: heard you say that before I did.

737
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,240
Speaker 2: Hopefully this it's not a trap, but yes, I believe it's.

738
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 1: Not a drap at all. No, No, that's not what

739
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 1: we do on this podcast. There's no Gotcha's Golf Architecture podcast.

740
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 1: What do you think what made him so effective at routing? What?

741
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:29,839
Speaker 1: What is what is the talent there?

742
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 2: Hmmm, utilizing the land in almost the most economical way,

743
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 2: like it didn't take a lot. Now, there was always

744
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 2: this great contrast years and years ago because they discovered

745
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 2: and we go back to Wayne, that they discovered that

746
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:52,439
Speaker 2: Flynn had done a routing for the country Covie York,

747
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 2: and Ron and I had worked at Counch Covie York

748
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,800
Speaker 2: many many Manion years ago, and we knew that property

749
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:01,439
Speaker 2: and when was always like, ah, you know, why didn't

750
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 2: they They should have used Flynn's plan. Lynn's plan, And it

751
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 2: was like, oh my gosh, like Flyn's plan. Walking that property,

752
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 2: it would have been a cart only golf course. It

753
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 2: was a tough piece of property.

754
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: There's a there's a not famous but famous to me

755
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 1: paper on golf club at lists about oh yeah, that's right,

756
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: comparing and contrasting the routings, and Flynn's just involved. Flynn's

757
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 1: was a lot more muscular. Let's put it down.

758
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, but you know, okay, so you just

759
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:31,760
Speaker 2: used the word muscular brawnye, okay, Philly Country is a brawny,

760
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 2: big muscular property Lancaster the same way Huntington Valley has

761
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 2: aspects of that Manny's. Manny's is different because he basically

762
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 2: switched back up the slope where others he would go

763
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,879
Speaker 2: with the slopes and down and across, and so there

764
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 2: were some rounding differences there. But you know, one thing

765
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 2: you guys talked about on the Shinnacock thing again, it's

766
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 2: triangles and this idea of trying angles and when you

767
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 2: look at some of his routings, this idea of these

768
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 2: three whole blocks in triangles. It shows you how he

769
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 2: was thinking and thinking about the land, thinking about the wind,

770
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 2: thinking about the contrasting lies above your feet, below your feet.

771
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,919
Speaker 2: You know, what's what is the land going to do?

772
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 2: And by having those triangles, he I don't want to

773
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 2: say he forced an outcome on you, but he definitely

774
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 2: it influenced what could be happening within those sections. And

775
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 2: it wasn't always sequentially seven eight nine, you know Philly,

776
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 2: it's like one eight nine, one, six ten, four, five eleven.

777
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 2: You know, he had these different triangles that seemed to

778
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 2: work with all of the topography. And I like what

779
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 2: he used to do. And Wayne and I have talked

780
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 2: about this is sort of the reverse can't Part four,

781
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:53,799
Speaker 2: where a lot of times dog leg Part fours were

782
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 2: always like a racetrack, low inside, high outside. Flynn flipped

783
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 2: that fifteen at Lancaster seven or two at Philly Country,

784
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 2: where if you played away from the hazards, you didn't

785
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 2: need a hazard to the outside. The land did it,

786
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 2: and therefore that lower land seemed to obscure your view

787
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 2: towards the green, or he just simply placed a bunker

788
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:22,760
Speaker 2: at the green that you had to negotiate but it just, uh,

789
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 2: I don't know that there's a certain elegance to his routings.

790
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:30,439
Speaker 2: That's that's kind of how I look at.

791
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, they seem simple, right, it's not again, it's it's

792
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:39,879
Speaker 1: not a showy thing with William Flynn. It just seems like, oh, yeah,

793
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:44,399
Speaker 1: that's that's obviously how this land should be routed. But

794
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,719
Speaker 1: but of course, you know, if you were given, if

795
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:50,319
Speaker 1: I were given, let's say that the same piece of land,

796
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't have come up with as the end

797
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 1: of a solution.

798
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 2: And you know, we don't. We don't have insight. You know,

799
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 2: he wrote a little bit on some of his principles,

800
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 2: so it's hard to say, you know, why was it

801
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 2: the green sites first? Was he the type that picked

802
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:09,879
Speaker 2: the greens first? Was it Okay, I've got a long

803
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:11,919
Speaker 2: stretch of land here, I can get a Part four

804
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 2: in here, or I've got a stream crossing here, so

805
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 2: I want to use this stream. It's hard to say

806
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 2: what the actual intentions were, you know, we just we

807
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:27,360
Speaker 2: just don't have him here to do that, and he

808
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 2: didn't write much down. I guess.

809
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 1: All right, I have a question here from a member

810
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: of Friday Golf Club I put out a call for

811
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 1: questions in our in our Friday Golf Club app, and

812
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 1: some people chimed in with things they want to know

813
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 1: about about William Flynn. So this is from a member

814
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 1: named Ben Dennison, he says, and this is starting to

815
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 1: get to you know, Flynn's use of strategic design and angles.

816
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,479
Speaker 1: He says. When I think of flynn courses, I think

817
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 1: a lot about diagonals as one of the key aspects

818
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 1: of his architectural style. Offset tea boxes, crossing creeks at

819
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: various diagonal angles, et cetera. Where did this design feature

820
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 1: originate for him? Was this a conscious choice he came

821
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 1: to or did he just fall into it? Now it

822
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 1: might be hard to answer those questions because, as you said, well,

823
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 1: Flynn didn't didn't have a lot of uh didn't didn't

824
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 1: write a lot about his craft. But as you assess

825
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 1: his courses, does it become obvious to you that this

826
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:31,839
Speaker 1: was something that was important to him this this year?

827
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 2: Very much so, very much so. And I had the

828
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 2: good fortune of working for the Die family even when

829
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 2: I was in college studying golf or studying to be

830
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 2: a golf architect. You know, I didn't know that, Yeah,

831
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 2: you and everybody else went down to the Pete Die

832
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 2: Golf Club just to see it under construction. It was

833
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 2: still being built. I mean, you had a seventeen year

834
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 2: window to go see it, and Pete happened to be

835
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:57,359
Speaker 2: there that day, and literally by the end of the day,

836
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 2: I wasn't working necessary for Pete, but for for Perry

837
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 2: who sun in Colorado. But what we're getting out there

838
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 2: is for the Die family, angles diagonals were huge, huge influence,

839
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:10,759
Speaker 2: and I think for Flynn again, we got to go

840
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 2: back to this idea of Wilson and Mike Serba, sort

841
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 2: of a golf historian in Philly for those that might

842
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 2: not know them, did a great presentation on Hugh Wilson

843
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 2: and a lot of the principles that you saw coming

844
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:24,799
Speaker 2: out of Marion, and he only did all dabble it

845
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 2: a little bit in other some other projects. There seemed

846
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 2: to be these strong influences on Flynn and that diagonal.

847
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 2: And you really pick up on that diagonal in the

848
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 2: evolution of Dick Wilson as a designer, because then Wilson

849
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 2: started taking the role of the ball out and going vertical.

850
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:44,800
Speaker 2: So those diagonals and how things were coming into lines

851
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 2: of play. I thought it was beautiful the way you

852
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 2: guys discussed the sixteenth hole at Shinnecock straight line t

853
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,959
Speaker 2: de green. But he interrupts it with that line of play.

854
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 2: Are we talking about the line of charm? There's the

855
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 2: line of instinct, and then we introduce that line of charm.

856
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 2: Great English gardeners talked about s curves and this line

857
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 2: of charm and beauty and how you're interrupting things, and

858
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 2: then that sort of evolved into golf and you could

859
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 2: look at you could do a study of the what

860
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:21,320
Speaker 2: was the original eighteenth at Philly Country it's now the third.

861
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:25,319
Speaker 2: The bunkering concepts versus the land are very similar to

862
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 2: the sixteenth at Shinnecok, and so he builds those in

863
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 2: on these interrupting lines. I love his It's easier to

864
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:37,320
Speaker 2: work on a restoration plan for Flynn when you're getting

865
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 2: the teas. You know this general tendency of the modern

866
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 2: teas to square everything off. Well, because Flynn did not

867
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:47,799
Speaker 2: point everything at the middles of fairways, they were all offset.

868
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:50,359
Speaker 2: It makes it very easy to say, we don't need

869
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:52,319
Speaker 2: to square these things off. We can kind of do

870
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 2: some irregular shaped teas and have them juxtaposed off the

871
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 2: center line of the whole. It's there's a certain beauty

872
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:00,959
Speaker 2: in that also.

873
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,319
Speaker 1: Right, you even have to start doing that because if

874
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 1: you have a hole where you know, the aggressive play

875
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 1: is at a completely different angle from the tee than

876
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 1: the conservative play than having like a perfectly squared off

877
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: t box is going to confuse people, right, yeah, yeah, yeah,

878
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 1: that's I think he never thought about the effect on

879
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:23,240
Speaker 1: te design.

880
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 2: I just think it was his evolution as a designer

881
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 2: that the diagonals and the ever changing landscape and golf

882
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:38,239
Speaker 2: design at that time in the twenties, you know, some

883
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 2: of his maybe one of his best years was twenty

884
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 2: six and then you know, you get thirty and thirty

885
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 2: one with Indian Creak and Shinnecock and how he evolved

886
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:48,799
Speaker 2: in that period of time. You take a look at

887
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 2: early Lancaster and it was very rudimentary for his standards,

888
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:56,879
Speaker 2: not Victorian, but very rudimentary for his standards in Harrisburg

889
00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:04,240
Speaker 2: and Downingtown and Eagles Mere, very simple designs. But then

890
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:07,839
Speaker 2: he you know, something was evolving. Maybe was it the

891
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:11,920
Speaker 2: combined efforts of the Philadelphia School and those guys exchanging ideas.

892
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:15,359
Speaker 2: Was it the completion of Pine Valley? Was it? You know,

893
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 2: him taking over and essentially doing all the work at Marion.

894
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 2: Who's to say so?

895
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:23,280
Speaker 1: I've got another question for you here from a Friday

896
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 1: Golf Club member, but there's a bit of a build up.

897
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 1: It's on the issue of equipment regulation, and William Flynn

898
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 1: happened to be an advocate for more regulation. He saw

899
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 1: it as an emerging problem. He spoke out against it.

900
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 1: You know this is this is one of his utterances

901
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:45,280
Speaker 1: that we can actually quote, and it's a remarkable quote.

902
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 1: I just want to read it. He said, all architects

903
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:51,719
Speaker 1: will be a lot more comfortable when the powers that

904
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,919
Speaker 1: be in golf finally solve the ball problem. A great

905
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 1: deal of experimentation is now going on, and it is

906
00:53:57,400 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 1: to be hoped that before long a solution will be

907
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 1: found to control the distance of the elusive pill. If,

908
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 1: as in the past, the distance to be gotten with

909
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 1: the ball continues to increase, it will be necessary to

910
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 1: go to seventy five hundred and even eight thousand yard courses,

911
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:17,479
Speaker 1: and more yards means more acres to buy, more course

912
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:21,440
Speaker 1: to construct, more fairway to maintain, and more money for

913
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:24,240
Speaker 1: the golfer to fork out. This might be the single

914
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 1: most prescient thing that I think any architect of his

915
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:32,759
Speaker 1: era said about equipment and.

916
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 2: So related to what year was that one.

917
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 1: I actually don't know what year this quote came from.

918
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 1: Wayne Morrison has quoted it a number of times. We

919
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:44,840
Speaker 1: know William Flynn died in nineteen forty four, so I

920
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:45,359
Speaker 1: don't know.

921
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 2: Well, here, I'm going to pull up one here for you.

922
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 2: It's a confirmation of that. And this is very interesting

923
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 2: because of what we are still dealing with ninety years later.

924
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:04,040
Speaker 2: You bear with me here. And so in terms of

925
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 2: the equipment, yes, he was unabashed in his philosophies and

926
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 2: his thoughts regarding the equipment and where things were going,

927
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 2: and it just seemed to be something that he was

928
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 2: He was actually pretty upset that Ed Dudley, who was

929
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 2: a very famous golf pro, spent time at Augusta, was

930
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 2: the golf pro Philadelphia Country Club was reaching his par

931
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 2: fours or par fives in two So here we go.

932
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 2: During the last decade, there has been continuous improvement in

933
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 2: the golf ball. All the modern club has been made

934
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 2: much more powerful and effective by changes in the swinging

935
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:51,440
Speaker 2: weight and improvements in the steel shaft. In addition, a

936
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:54,960
Speaker 2: new class of golf. And it's crossed out, and he

937
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:59,319
Speaker 2: adds amateur and professional professional is what was crossed out.

938
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:02,839
Speaker 2: He says, amateur also has developed the modern defense. The

939
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 2: modern professional has achieved unbelievable distance and accuracy because he

940
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 2: not only practices continually and intelligently, but because he goes

941
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:15,720
Speaker 2: into physical and mental training for tournament play. This means

942
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 2: that the low scores in the Open will be players

943
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:20,799
Speaker 2: who are not only in perfect physical condition, but they

944
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 2: are mentally tournament hardened in their concentration, and their concentration

945
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 2: is always under control. In the last twenty five years,

946
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:31,400
Speaker 2: there has been very little change in the rule for

947
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:34,560
Speaker 2: determining par for a course, whereas there has been a

948
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:39,200
Speaker 2: tremendous advancement in the character of play by our best professionals.

949
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:44,440
Speaker 2: Nineteen thirty eight, in preparation for the US Open at Philly,

950
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:47,440
Speaker 2: they actually played that US Open at a tick over

951
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 2: sixty eight hundred and fifty yards par sixty nine one

952
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 2: part five.

953
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:56,680
Speaker 1: Wow. And that was right around the time that the

954
00:56:56,760 --> 00:56:59,720
Speaker 1: USGA was starting to get really worried too, and around

955
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 1: the time that Robert Trent Jones was going out to

956
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:05,759
Speaker 1: US opens and starting to measure drives. But I think yeah, I.

957
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 2: Mean fourteen years later, nineteen fifty one is when he

958
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:14,319
Speaker 2: put his stamp on the open, Doctor Monks.

959
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 1: Just as soon as he could after the war basically,

960
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 1: And it was, yeah, it was in those years that

961
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 1: people started, you know, Ralph Gouldall and others started shooting

962
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:26,160
Speaker 1: really low scores at the US Open all of a sudden,

963
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 1: that places like Oakland Hills and so so. Yeah, I

964
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:32,880
Speaker 1: mean clearly Flynn was was kind of part of that

965
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:37,360
Speaker 1: pushback against the increasing distance that the ball was traveling.

966
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 1: And this had a lot to do with steel shafts

967
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:44,200
Speaker 1: and you know, just improvements and in general. But this

968
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 1: is a question from from FEGC member Hunter Lambert, and

969
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:51,160
Speaker 1: it's a it's a good one. He's just curious if

970
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 1: flynn designs were because Flynn was so you know, sort

971
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:58,960
Speaker 1: of worried about this problem or aware of this problem,

972
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 1: were his designs already distance protected to some degree, and

973
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 1: was that purposeful on his part? And I will note

974
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:10,200
Speaker 1: here that the Flynn's courses have stood the test of

975
00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 1: time pretty well. In general, in championship golf.

976
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:16,080
Speaker 2: There was a certain elasticity I think built into his

977
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:18,960
Speaker 2: golf courses, but others there were not. You know when

978
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 2: we when we so Force Design started working with Philadelphia

979
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 2: Country Club in nineteen ninety nine, I had been with

980
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 2: Ron a year two thousand and when was the last

981
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:35,280
Speaker 2: am at Marrion? I think it was five three or five,

982
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 2: not a long time ago. Yeah, yeah, But anyway, they

983
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:41,440
Speaker 2: lengthened holes for five and then we just redid the

984
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:44,360
Speaker 2: course again and we lengthened them some more on the

985
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:47,120
Speaker 2: holes that we could. Otherwise that course is backed into things,

986
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 2: so how do we handle this distance thing? When the

987
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:53,640
Speaker 2: club commissioned me, I was still with Ron, but they

988
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 2: said we want our nineteen thirty nine US Open course.

989
00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 2: I said that's great, but you know, holes like two, three, four, eight, nine, ten, twelve,

990
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:16,320
Speaker 2: seventeen eighteen, all of the bunker positions are just they're irrelevant.

991
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 2: So we did and we didn't have the ability to

992
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:21,040
Speaker 2: go back on some of those holes. So we went

993
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:24,480
Speaker 2: forward or further away with the bunkers only where the

994
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:27,640
Speaker 2: ground would allow us to do that. And so Flynn's

995
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:32,360
Speaker 2: courses I think have held their own possibly because of

996
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:36,640
Speaker 2: his routing his greens and he was really good at

997
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:40,040
Speaker 2: bunkering things, and he didn't force he didn't you know,

998
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:41,880
Speaker 2: if you have ground that's falling away and you try

999
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 2: and put a bunker on, you got to build that

1000
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:47,360
Speaker 2: ground up. So because Flynn, everything was laid out in

1001
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:50,439
Speaker 2: front of you. You could see what you needed to do.

1002
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 2: And so with Flynn, he'd I think there was certain

1003
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 2: flexibility built into his designs. We also saw and have

1004
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 2: letters from him saying changes that he would have made

1005
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 2: or he was recommending because of the change of equipment.

1006
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:06,400
Speaker 2: So that gives us a little bit of freedom as

1007
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 2: architects to sort of pick up on that Lancaster. You know,

1008
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:13,520
Speaker 2: when we started doing preparing Lancaster for the twenty four

1009
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:17,680
Speaker 2: Women's Open, and it's always member driven, but Lancaster, some

1010
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 2: of those bunkers had started to become obsolete. So we

1011
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:24,440
Speaker 2: started making adjustments by either adding bunkers, bringing some bunkers

1012
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:28,280
Speaker 2: that were taken away decades ago, elongating some of the

1013
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 2: bunkers so that we could kind of cover those distances

1014
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 2: because unfortunately, as you know, with a lot of classic

1015
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:37,320
Speaker 2: golf courses, those teas are pushed into the corners and

1016
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:40,160
Speaker 2: we just don't have that room to expand them anymore

1017
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:43,200
Speaker 2: or extend them, I should say so.

1018
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:48,000
Speaker 1: Flynn is often mentioned as part of the Philadelphia School

1019
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:51,560
Speaker 1: of golf architecture. You've made reference to the Philly School

1020
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:55,560
Speaker 1: a couple of times so far. He contributed to the

1021
01:00:55,600 --> 01:01:00,520
Speaker 1: designs of Marion and Pine Valley, which were like the

1022
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 1: great laboratories of Philadelphia golf course architecture. And of course

1023
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 1: he himself designed more great courses in the Philadelphia area

1024
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:13,480
Speaker 1: than anyone. How would you talk about the influence of

1025
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:18,000
Speaker 1: the Philadelphia School on American golf architecture in general, Like

1026
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 1: what did it give to golf course design in this country?

1027
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:30,840
Speaker 2: It's hard to say, because, you know, working on a

1028
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:33,960
Speaker 2: lot of classic air golf courses, you have a regionalization,

1029
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:39,280
Speaker 2: you know, Warren Smith styles in Van Kleek, kind of

1030
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 2: Herbert Strong, New England, New York, and a ross all

1031
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:52,480
Speaker 2: over the place. I think his his lasting impression, his

1032
01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:56,400
Speaker 2: lasting legacy, was the fact that his I feel like

1033
01:01:57,160 --> 01:02:02,120
Speaker 2: his associates Dick will Dick Wilson then breeds a couple

1034
01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:04,960
Speaker 2: other guys and William Gordon. You know William Gordon. It's

1035
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:07,680
Speaker 2: not a not a name you seek out, but yet

1036
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 2: he did a fantastic job at Saukon Valley Way Hill

1037
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:15,200
Speaker 2: and the Grace Course, really good golf courses that there.

1038
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:19,680
Speaker 2: There was sort of this this trickling down. You know.

1039
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:24,640
Speaker 3: Maybe it's the minimalistic approach of design, you know, in

1040
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 3: terms of and you guys talked about it in terms

1041
01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 3: of the approach that maybe Gil, having lived in the

1042
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 3: Philly area, picked up on.

1043
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:37,680
Speaker 2: I can't speak for Gil, so I'm hypothesized, but maybe

1044
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:41,040
Speaker 2: what Gil saw in the work that he when he

1045
01:02:41,160 --> 01:02:43,320
Speaker 2: was living in Philly and what he saw there. I

1046
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:47,080
Speaker 2: know when Tom was doing Stonewall, apparently he traveled and

1047
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:49,800
Speaker 2: would go all around Philly looking at some of those

1048
01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:52,920
Speaker 2: golf courses. Maybe there were certain aspects that were picked

1049
01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:57,240
Speaker 2: up there. You know, I remember walking sand Hills with

1050
01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:01,160
Speaker 2: Ben Crenshaw and of course Sonny Hannah is primarily tilling.

1051
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:05,600
Speaker 2: Has Flynn came in thirty eight or something like that

1052
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:09,880
Speaker 2: and did some work there, and you know, Ben Crenshaw

1053
01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:13,960
Speaker 2: mentioned how much playing as an amateur he started to

1054
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:16,440
Speaker 2: notice something at the country club a bookline, and then

1055
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:20,840
Speaker 2: at Sonny Hannah something about these classic courses. Maybe that

1056
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:23,200
Speaker 2: there was just something that stuck in the back of

1057
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:27,320
Speaker 2: their mind. That moved through. But in terms of what

1058
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:29,320
Speaker 2: did the Philly School give us, I mean, I think

1059
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:32,080
Speaker 2: you have two of the greatest golf courses in the

1060
01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:36,040
Speaker 2: world and examples of different styles of architecture in Marion

1061
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:36,960
Speaker 2: and Pine Valley.

1062
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:43,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean Flynn's contributions to Pine Valley are kind

1063
01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:48,360
Speaker 1: of focused around a few holes. How would you understand

1064
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:50,040
Speaker 1: and this is a question I got as well in

1065
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:54,640
Speaker 1: Friday Golf Club, how would you understand his contributions to Marion.

1066
01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:58,200
Speaker 1: I've never quite been able to figure out well, or

1067
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:00,560
Speaker 1: I should be saying that, you know, Mary is Hugh

1068
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:03,240
Speaker 1: Wilson plus William Flynn or just Hugh Wilson.

1069
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:07,800
Speaker 2: I think it's Hugh Wilson, Hugh Wilson, Hugh Wilson and

1070
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 2: William Flynn in the sense that you know, Fred Pickering

1071
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:14,760
Speaker 2: was building a lot of the stuff at Marion, and

1072
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:17,000
Speaker 2: I think there was a connection of marriage or something

1073
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:19,360
Speaker 2: in law. I'm not a hun percent sure with Pickering

1074
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:22,320
Speaker 2: and Flynn. Flynn was up in Vermont, brings him down

1075
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:25,280
Speaker 2: to Marion kind of makes him puts him on the

1076
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:29,120
Speaker 2: construction crew. Flynn was eventually is elevated to basically a

1077
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 2: construction format and superintendent, and you had to imagine back

1078
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:35,120
Speaker 2: at that time, a lot of the superintendents were doing

1079
01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:36,960
Speaker 2: the actual design work. It could have been an Irishmen

1080
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:40,000
Speaker 2: and Englishman, a Scotsman, whomever, and they're doing some of

1081
01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:44,400
Speaker 2: that work. And so the changes that were being made

1082
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:48,200
Speaker 2: at Marion, there are times that changes were being made

1083
01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:52,680
Speaker 2: after Wilson had passed away. So I think it's obvious

1084
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:56,440
Speaker 2: then that Flynn probably was taking on some of that

1085
01:04:56,680 --> 01:05:00,200
Speaker 2: role of doing that work. You know, that'd be a

1086
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:03,040
Speaker 2: great conversation to have with with Wayne or just check

1087
01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:04,960
Speaker 2: in on golf called Batist, because I think that, uh,

1088
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:08,400
Speaker 2: that is has probably been for this, this whole, this whole,

1089
01:05:09,400 --> 01:05:10,760
Speaker 2: this whole conversation.

1090
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:13,480
Speaker 1: You know, podcasts like this exists Jen so that people

1091
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:17,280
Speaker 1: don't have to dig too deeply into those threads, because

1092
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:20,520
Speaker 1: while I enjoy that, no, it's not for everybody.

1093
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:24,520
Speaker 2: I really, I truly do believe that there are portions

1094
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:30,520
Speaker 2: of of Mary and they're very much you know, William Flynn.

1095
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:34,560
Speaker 2: I just think that there's just the evolution of the course,

1096
01:05:34,640 --> 01:05:38,040
Speaker 2: the timing of everything, and some of the things that

1097
01:05:38,120 --> 01:05:40,080
Speaker 2: you might see at Mary and that get carried out

1098
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:45,080
Speaker 2: through other golf courses. I think he had to have it.

1099
01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:48,280
Speaker 2: I think that's a that's a Toomey, or that's a

1100
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:49,640
Speaker 2: Wilson and Flynn.

1101
01:05:50,200 --> 01:05:54,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I'm I'm glad to get a relatively definitive

1102
01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:58,280
Speaker 1: answer there. Do you have time for for a quick

1103
01:05:58,360 --> 01:06:02,880
Speaker 1: lightning round? Just a few quick question or answer answer

1104
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:05,760
Speaker 1: in a few sentences. Yeah, it's actually a terrible thing

1105
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 1: that interviewers do. I will admit that. Just saying ahead

1106
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:11,440
Speaker 1: of time, I'm going to ask you a question, you

1107
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:12,720
Speaker 1: only get two sentences.

1108
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:15,920
Speaker 2: I'm only joking because you said in a few sentences.

1109
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:18,240
Speaker 2: And if you give a golf architect a platform, they

1110
01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:20,160
Speaker 2: can't say anything in a few sentences.

1111
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:24,160
Speaker 1: That's very true, all right. First one is from Glenn

1112
01:06:24,160 --> 01:06:28,200
Speaker 1: Saunders and fegc. He asks what are some of the

1113
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:31,480
Speaker 1: more underrated and unknown Flint courses. I'm going to focus

1114
01:06:31,520 --> 01:06:34,360
Speaker 1: this one a bit further. Is there one Flinn course

1115
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:37,600
Speaker 1: that you think hasn't gotten the recognition it deserves, whether

1116
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:46,200
Speaker 1: you've worked there or not. Yeah, I mean you don't

1117
01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:48,000
Speaker 1: have to choose just one if that's too hard.

1118
01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:53,080
Speaker 2: No, that's the thing, because the one that I think

1119
01:06:53,120 --> 01:06:57,959
Speaker 2: flies under the radar is Manufacturers. But you know, part

1120
01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:01,120
Speaker 2: of its recognition really is becoming just because of some

1121
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:04,040
Speaker 2: great photos that John, it's hard.

1122
01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:06,240
Speaker 1: To become a social media start. Yes, a few of

1123
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:10,720
Speaker 1: those goals with the that's kind of I think it's.

1124
01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:13,479
Speaker 2: Only second to the sixteenth at Sleepy Hollow in terms

1125
01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:21,360
Speaker 2: of posts on online. You know they're Lee High. Not

1126
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:26,240
Speaker 2: everybody focuses on the Philly courses, And then a lot

1127
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:28,720
Speaker 2: of people say, so we only a couple of sentences

1128
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:30,000
Speaker 2: Lee High.

1129
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:34,200
Speaker 1: That's my that's my re Yes, perfect answer. Yes, very

1130
01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:37,400
Speaker 1: very under underrated golf course where Ron Forest has worked

1131
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:38,040
Speaker 1: for for a.

1132
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:40,280
Speaker 2: Long time, almost thirty plus years.

1133
01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:43,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. The next one here is from Matthew Rix and

1134
01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:48,240
Speaker 1: Nephew GC. He asks, you know, we know Flynn did

1135
01:07:48,320 --> 01:07:52,080
Speaker 1: most of his work around Philadelphia, with some exceptions, or

1136
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:53,920
Speaker 1: a lot of his work at least. Is there a

1137
01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:56,880
Speaker 1: chance more Flynn courses exist in New Jersey, New York

1138
01:07:56,880 --> 01:07:59,800
Speaker 1: and the surrounding areas, but their record keeping and histories

1139
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:03,240
Speaker 1: of lost over time? How you thought about whether there

1140
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:06,640
Speaker 1: are some courses out there that maybe call themselves Ross

1141
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:10,640
Speaker 1: but are in fact Flynn as you conquered.

1142
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:14,960
Speaker 2: Some might say the opposite for Glenn View, that he

1143
01:08:15,040 --> 01:08:18,280
Speaker 2: really didn't do much there, but it's I don't think

1144
01:08:18,320 --> 01:08:22,880
Speaker 2: so after to see what Wayne and and Tom Paul

1145
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:24,600
Speaker 2: and I think there was even Mike herdzan in there

1146
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:26,960
Speaker 2: a little bit, to see all of the information that

1147
01:08:27,000 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 2: they had on all of these golf courses. I'm not

1148
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:35,479
Speaker 2: sure there's anything out there that's that's missing. I agree that, yeah,

1149
01:08:36,280 --> 01:08:36,760
Speaker 2: it's just.

1150
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:39,479
Speaker 1: What we can know. We probably do, know, I.

1151
01:08:40,040 --> 01:08:42,280
Speaker 2: Really think we do. And it'd be wonderful if there

1152
01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:45,920
Speaker 2: was something else out there. But I just I don't

1153
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:49,639
Speaker 2: see it. Dying, you know, he wasn't one that took

1154
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:54,680
Speaker 2: on too much work. He died relatively young, you know,

1155
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:56,439
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't think so.

1156
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:03,400
Speaker 1: Okay, the last couple quite here from me. Uh, these

1157
01:09:03,400 --> 01:09:07,320
Speaker 1: are not from FUGC members, as you've mentioned, like a

1158
01:09:07,400 --> 01:09:11,720
Speaker 1: number of notable golf architects worked for Flynn, worked on

1159
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:16,679
Speaker 1: Flynn construction crews, including Dick Wilson and Read Lawrence Lawrence.

1160
01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:19,800
Speaker 1: Is there a golf course by by one of Flynn's

1161
01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:25,320
Speaker 1: acolytes that you think embodies Flynn's principles particularly well where

1162
01:09:25,320 --> 01:09:27,280
Speaker 1: you look at it and you're like, oh, that's Flynn.

1163
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:31,040
Speaker 2: There's two okay, and it's an evolution from one generation

1164
01:09:31,120 --> 01:09:35,200
Speaker 2: to the next. The best, the best golf course architecture

1165
01:09:35,280 --> 01:09:38,160
Speaker 2: education I ever had started at Indian Creek where we talked.

1166
01:09:38,160 --> 01:09:41,040
Speaker 2: We started this whole conversation onout Indian Creek from scratch

1167
01:09:41,439 --> 01:09:44,040
Speaker 2: Flynn's principles on paper boom done.

1168
01:09:44,120 --> 01:09:48,160
Speaker 1: I think we talked about that off without afore we

1169
01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:50,000
Speaker 1: were recording, but we did. You and I had a

1170
01:09:50,040 --> 01:09:52,960
Speaker 1: little discussion of Indian crea Indian.

1171
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:55,120
Speaker 2: Creek, and then you go from Indian Creek to Pine Tree.

1172
01:09:55,160 --> 01:09:56,920
Speaker 2: The next day I was at Pine Tree, which is

1173
01:09:56,960 --> 01:10:00,160
Speaker 2: Dick Wilson, and you can see those principles. And Dick

1174
01:10:00,200 --> 01:10:03,840
Speaker 2: Wilson designed a hard golf course at Indian or at

1175
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:06,799
Speaker 2: Pine Tree, and it was the changing of the guard.

1176
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:10,400
Speaker 2: It was the low running, firm golf courses to the

1177
01:10:10,479 --> 01:10:15,400
Speaker 2: aerial approach. But the bunker principles, the pulling bunkers into

1178
01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:18,040
Speaker 2: the foreground and the deception of how much distance there

1179
01:10:18,160 --> 01:10:20,719
Speaker 2: is between them the greens designs. And then you jump

1180
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:23,599
Speaker 2: forward a couple of years later and Robert von Haggie

1181
01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:27,839
Speaker 2: builds Boker Rio Golf Club and it's even more aerial

1182
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:30,599
Speaker 2: and more undulation in the fairways. But the design principles

1183
01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:33,080
Speaker 2: from one to the next to the next, they're there.

1184
01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:37,280
Speaker 2: If you understand golf design architectural principles, you can pick

1185
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:39,280
Speaker 2: up Indian Creek and you can find it in Boker

1186
01:10:39,360 --> 01:10:41,639
Speaker 2: Real and it just moves through.

1187
01:10:42,479 --> 01:10:45,479
Speaker 1: That's a great answer. Have you ever been a desert forest?

1188
01:10:46,040 --> 01:10:47,720
Speaker 1: And I'm not Scott's.

1189
01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:51,519
Speaker 2: I'd love to get I've only been out there once.

1190
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:57,320
Speaker 1: And but yeah, so cool. So it's a Red Lawrence design. Yeah,

1191
01:10:57,760 --> 01:11:00,640
Speaker 1: it has been added in recent years by Zinc And

1192
01:11:00,640 --> 01:11:05,639
Speaker 1: then I think very well, But you know, that course

1193
01:11:06,960 --> 01:11:09,240
Speaker 1: makes so much more sense to me now. I mean

1194
01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:12,040
Speaker 1: it made sense as a golf course as soon as

1195
01:11:12,080 --> 01:11:15,679
Speaker 1: I played it, but now I understand where it came

1196
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:19,040
Speaker 1: from now that I've been looking into Flynn a little

1197
01:11:19,040 --> 01:11:22,080
Speaker 1: more closely over the past couple of months, because oh, man,

1198
01:11:22,400 --> 01:11:25,280
Speaker 1: like so much. Flynn is there in that golf course

1199
01:11:25,479 --> 01:11:27,439
Speaker 1: and it's in the desert. You know, you just don't

1200
01:11:27,439 --> 01:11:30,439
Speaker 1: see that kind of architecture very often in the desert.

1201
01:11:30,439 --> 01:11:32,519
Speaker 1: It's not a great piece of land. You've got these

1202
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:37,160
Speaker 1: snaking fairways, these diagonals, these ridge to ridge holes, these

1203
01:11:37,240 --> 01:11:39,639
Speaker 1: I mean, just the use of the land, the way

1204
01:11:39,640 --> 01:11:43,640
Speaker 1: the routing works is just flinn to a t I think.

1205
01:11:43,640 --> 01:11:45,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really want to get down and see Ron

1206
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:49,800
Speaker 2: did a major rebuild at Country for Lauderdale or Ford

1207
01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:53,200
Speaker 2: Lauderdale Country Club. They have two eighteens and Red Lawrence

1208
01:11:53,240 --> 01:11:55,760
Speaker 2: had had some hand I think in one of them.

1209
01:11:55,880 --> 01:11:59,080
Speaker 2: So Ron decided he was going to do Red Lawrence

1210
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:01,600
Speaker 2: on on the course that he renovated. And I know

1211
01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:05,040
Speaker 2: I was talking to Heppner and hep said, he gives man,

1212
01:12:05,280 --> 01:12:08,320
Speaker 2: what Ron did over at Fort Lauders was really cool.

1213
01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:10,760
Speaker 2: And I know the three of us are going to

1214
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:12,519
Speaker 2: try and get together at some point, but I want

1215
01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:14,120
Speaker 2: to go down and see that, to see what Ron. So,

1216
01:12:14,160 --> 01:12:16,280
Speaker 2: you know, you talk about what was Flynn's contribution, so

1217
01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:18,639
Speaker 2: here today, you know, I think Ron did that course

1218
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:23,479
Speaker 2: two years ago. So twenty twenty four, there's still this

1219
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:29,519
Speaker 2: Flynn influence in a major renovation on a golf course

1220
01:12:29,600 --> 01:12:31,400
Speaker 2: that came through Red Lawrence.

1221
01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:33,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's sort of a next step, isn't it. Looking

1222
01:12:33,960 --> 01:12:37,960
Speaker 1: at some of these courses by Dick Wilson. I mean, geez,

1223
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:41,200
Speaker 1: there's so many Dick Wilson designs that probably deserve a

1224
01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:44,360
Speaker 1: closer look. But also some of these, you know, less

1225
01:12:44,400 --> 01:12:47,960
Speaker 1: well known figures like Red Lawrence or von Hagy and

1226
01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:51,800
Speaker 1: kind of considering, all right, well, what can we do

1227
01:12:51,880 --> 01:12:54,519
Speaker 1: here that that would be interesting and representative of the

1228
01:12:54,560 --> 01:12:58,719
Speaker 1: design lineage. And so that's a kind of an exciting process.

1229
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:01,000
Speaker 2: Well, and that's you know, I'm Atwick Hills are I'll

1230
01:13:01,040 --> 01:13:03,120
Speaker 2: be at Warwick Hills the next two days in sight

1231
01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:05,360
Speaker 2: of the old Buick Open. And I told them when

1232
01:13:05,360 --> 01:13:10,080
Speaker 2: I first walked this property that there literally are a

1233
01:13:10,160 --> 01:13:12,360
Speaker 2: couple holes here that you could pick up and put

1234
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:17,120
Speaker 2: in Philadelphia and they would fit in perfectly within Philly.

1235
01:13:17,360 --> 01:13:20,080
Speaker 2: And so now you're you know, you're twice removed from Flynn.

1236
01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:23,439
Speaker 2: You go from Flynn to Wilson to Elite, and I

1237
01:13:23,479 --> 01:13:26,400
Speaker 2: think I think it depends on when you hit those

1238
01:13:26,439 --> 01:13:30,920
Speaker 2: golf courses. I think, you know, Dick Wilson, the course

1239
01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:35,200
Speaker 2: passing away in the sixties and Joe Lee. You know,

1240
01:13:35,240 --> 01:13:38,439
Speaker 2: I have the good fortune now of starting to consult

1241
01:13:38,520 --> 01:13:40,720
Speaker 2: with met the meadow Brook Club. I mean, what a

1242
01:13:40,760 --> 01:13:43,400
Speaker 2: phenomenal golf course, phenomenal piece of land. I mean like

1243
01:13:43,520 --> 01:13:46,920
Speaker 2: eight thousand square feet on average for the greens Lag,

1244
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:50,800
Speaker 2: putting to you know, premium. But the what Joe Lee

1245
01:13:50,840 --> 01:13:53,160
Speaker 2: did there, you couldn't you could almost not tell the

1246
01:13:53,200 --> 01:13:55,519
Speaker 2: difference between Wilson and Lee. So I think it depends

1247
01:13:55,560 --> 01:13:58,040
Speaker 2: on when you capture them in their window of time

1248
01:13:59,080 --> 01:14:01,519
Speaker 2: that they're to be some stuff. Because I've played some

1249
01:14:01,640 --> 01:14:04,960
Speaker 2: Joe Lee kind of in Mississippi and in that area.

1250
01:14:04,720 --> 01:14:08,720
Speaker 1: And variable quality, yes to say not.

1251
01:14:09,160 --> 01:14:12,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, So you know, I think it just depends. But

1252
01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:15,720
Speaker 2: that's that's the evolution of golf right now. You know,

1253
01:14:16,040 --> 01:14:19,519
Speaker 2: I'm personally for me now, I'm picking up projects that

1254
01:14:19,560 --> 01:14:23,280
Speaker 2: are not just classic era stuff it is. It's picking

1255
01:14:23,320 --> 01:14:26,479
Speaker 2: up projects in the fifties and the sixties. Some of

1256
01:14:26,520 --> 01:14:32,280
Speaker 2: them are worthy of restorative efforts and others are saying,

1257
01:14:32,400 --> 01:14:35,160
Speaker 2: let's let's reimagine what's going on here.

1258
01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:38,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's going to be a great test of architectural

1259
01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:42,920
Speaker 1: ability from the assaulting architects for sure. All Right, final

1260
01:14:43,280 --> 01:14:46,559
Speaker 1: quote unquote lightning round question for you. Do you have

1261
01:14:46,600 --> 01:14:49,080
Speaker 1: a hole at Shinnecock Hills that you're looking forward to

1262
01:14:49,479 --> 01:14:51,439
Speaker 1: seeing in the upcoming US Open? Is there?

1263
01:14:51,720 --> 01:14:56,280
Speaker 2: Sixteen, sixteen, and eleven? You know, eleven is absolutely one

1264
01:14:56,320 --> 01:14:59,120
Speaker 2: of the best part threas. I mean, everybody talks about

1265
01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:02,680
Speaker 2: the dand and everything. I just I love eleven. Yeah,

1266
01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:07,200
Speaker 2: but I think sixteen I pulled you know, I had

1267
01:15:07,240 --> 01:15:11,360
Speaker 2: to redesign the eighteenth hoole at Philadelphia Country Club, and

1268
01:15:11,479 --> 01:15:15,479
Speaker 2: I pulled inspiration off of that that well to quintup

1269
01:15:15,520 --> 01:15:18,599
Speaker 2: and five bunkers on the inside and just the way

1270
01:15:18,600 --> 01:15:21,400
Speaker 2: the ground was at Philly Country And I just think,

1271
01:15:21,439 --> 01:15:23,240
Speaker 2: you know, stretching it out this. I think it's going

1272
01:15:23,280 --> 01:15:25,240
Speaker 2: to play at six fifteen or six thirteen.

1273
01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:26,559
Speaker 1: It's going to be around there.

1274
01:15:26,640 --> 01:15:29,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, into the wind. So it'll be interesting to

1275
01:15:29,840 --> 01:15:32,960
Speaker 2: see what the carries are in the second shots. But

1276
01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:35,840
Speaker 2: also because it's my understanding that they're kind of going

1277
01:15:35,880 --> 01:15:39,360
Speaker 2: with the nineteen thirties fairway with, so what does that

1278
01:15:39,479 --> 01:15:42,000
Speaker 2: going to mean for rollout? I'm hoping the wind is

1279
01:15:42,080 --> 01:15:44,519
Speaker 2: blowing because I feel like if the wind's not blowing,

1280
01:15:44,560 --> 01:15:47,200
Speaker 2: then you know, who knows what could happen there. But

1281
01:15:47,360 --> 01:15:49,599
Speaker 2: I'm really excited for the sixteenth fole. I just want

1282
01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:50,559
Speaker 2: to see how that one plays.

1283
01:15:50,840 --> 01:15:53,479
Speaker 1: I don't know how to play that hole. That's the

1284
01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:55,960
Speaker 1: thing about, Like, I don't know if right or left

1285
01:15:55,960 --> 01:15:57,960
Speaker 1: off the tea is preferable. I think we go left

1286
01:15:57,960 --> 01:15:59,479
Speaker 1: if you want to try to reach it in two

1287
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:02,080
Speaker 1: to It's like not many.

1288
01:16:01,960 --> 01:16:05,400
Speaker 2: People because if you go left, because if you go left,

1289
01:16:05,439 --> 01:16:08,639
Speaker 2: then that brings that that set of bunkers on that ridge.

1290
01:16:08,680 --> 01:16:14,200
Speaker 2: You have to carry those right because you know Philly

1291
01:16:14,240 --> 01:16:17,799
Speaker 2: Country a little bit, the same Philly Country. Off their

1292
01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:20,080
Speaker 2: third hole, you have to go right off of the

1293
01:16:20,160 --> 01:16:24,160
Speaker 2: t there is a bunker left, but if you go right,

1294
01:16:24,320 --> 01:16:27,400
Speaker 2: it takes out this big, gaping, deep bunker on your

1295
01:16:27,439 --> 01:16:33,120
Speaker 2: second which almost represents the five that you have at Shinnecock.

1296
01:16:33,320 --> 01:16:37,240
Speaker 2: There it's one, but it's deep, and you know, you

1297
01:16:37,280 --> 01:16:40,320
Speaker 2: can play to the left, but then if you play

1298
01:16:40,360 --> 01:16:42,880
Speaker 2: to the left, you it's you have to go to

1299
01:16:42,920 --> 01:16:45,160
Speaker 2: the right and then the ground falls away. It's just

1300
01:16:45,400 --> 01:16:48,080
Speaker 2: it's a magnificent golf hole. It's it's that's going to

1301
01:16:48,160 --> 01:16:49,880
Speaker 2: say if you if you guys make that trip to

1302
01:16:50,040 --> 01:16:51,599
Speaker 2: you said you haven't been to Philly. If you guys

1303
01:16:51,600 --> 01:16:53,879
Speaker 2: make a trip to Philadelphia, there's so much to see.

1304
01:16:54,120 --> 01:16:56,200
Speaker 2: I do think, and you know it could be biased,

1305
01:16:56,200 --> 01:16:59,759
Speaker 2: but I think Philly is a good study of Flynn

1306
01:17:00,160 --> 01:17:05,600
Speaker 2: and his bunkering on something different than Shinnecock because he

1307
01:17:05,640 --> 01:17:08,160
Speaker 2: did a lot of bundering at Philly Country and other places.

1308
01:17:08,160 --> 01:17:09,200
Speaker 2: He restrained himself.

1309
01:17:09,320 --> 01:17:12,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, completely different kind of Land. But yeah, obviously if

1310
01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:15,720
Speaker 1: you if you want to study Flynn, then where else

1311
01:17:15,760 --> 01:17:19,320
Speaker 1: do you go other than other than Philly? All right, well, Jim,

1312
01:17:19,439 --> 01:17:21,479
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on the podcast as best.

1313
01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:23,520
Speaker 2: I've been wonderful. I appreciate the opportunity.

1314
01:17:23,600 --> 01:17:25,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, we got to do it again sometimes, so thanks.

1315
01:17:32,640 --> 01:17:36,479
Speaker 1: This episode of Designing Golf was produced by Will Balsam.

1316
01:17:36,840 --> 01:17:40,360
Speaker 1: Thank you. Will make sure to check out our Father's

1317
01:17:40,400 --> 01:17:44,040
Speaker 1: Day promotion in the Friday Golf Pro Shop. You can

1318
01:17:44,080 --> 01:17:47,599
Speaker 1: get a copy of our Coffee table Book, Volume one,

1319
01:17:48,280 --> 01:17:51,160
Speaker 1: and with that purchase, you can get a free hat.

1320
01:17:51,400 --> 01:17:54,479
Speaker 1: So not only will you have a great gift for

1321
01:17:54,720 --> 01:17:58,880
Speaker 1: your Father's Day person, but you'll also get a hat.

1322
01:17:59,200 --> 01:18:01,960
Speaker 1: You know. That's that's never a bad thing. Thank you

1323
01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:14,920
Speaker 1: for listening, and we'll be back again soon with another episode.