1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm 2 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: Danny Shapiro and this is Family Secrets. The secrets that 3 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 1: are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, 4 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: and the secrets we keep from ourselves. In this bonus episode, 5 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: we talk to Sam Dingman, the host of the podcast 6 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: Family Ghosts. Family Ghosts is a documentary style storytelling podcast 7 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: investigating the true story behind a mysterious figure whose legend 8 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: has followed a family for generations. Sam tells me about 9 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: his family secret he aired on his podcast and the 10 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: aftermath of telling it. I guess to kind of summarize 11 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: um the story basically, what it's about is, I, in 12 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: my memory became aware at my grandmother's nine birthday that 13 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: there was, in addition to my dad and his two brothers, 14 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,559 Speaker 1: both of whom I have known for my whole life, 15 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: there was a third brother that I didn't know about, 16 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: and that he The reason I didn't know about him 17 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: was because he had taken his own life when he 18 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 1: was very young, when he was eighteen UM, and that 19 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: my dad had found the body um when that happened. 20 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: And I was told this again in my memory, not 21 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: by my dad, but by my younger brother Jake, who 22 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: UM was at this particular moment of my grandmother's birthday, 23 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: also in a period of turmoil in his life. Again 24 00:01:55,240 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: in my memory, and UM, I remember feeling in that 25 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: moment like perhaps there was some connection between the fact 26 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 1: that this had happened to my father when my father 27 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: was very young, and the fact that at that point 28 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: in my life I was in my mid twenties. At 29 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: the time, UM, I felt like this relationship of closeness 30 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: and trust and intimacy that I had that I recalled 31 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: having with my dad when I was a kid, UM 32 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: had erote it. And I wondered if perhaps by exploring 33 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: the story of Dick and take the opportunity to actually 34 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: talk to my dad about it and and connect with 35 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: him about it, I might be able to hit upon 36 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 1: what was at the root of the erosion of our 37 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: relationship with each other. And so the rest of the 38 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: episode is basically my attempt to do that. I'm just 39 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: wondering whether you think, Sam that part of the erosion 40 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:02,239 Speaker 1: with your father during those years leading up to that point, 41 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: it seems like it had something to do with your 42 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: father just kind of retreating, you know, becoming just more distant, 43 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: more you know, sort of less engaged with you in 44 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: some way, and whether I don't, I don't want to 45 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,799 Speaker 1: push this idea, but like whether you think that that distance, 46 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 1: that lack of engagement, actually this is interesting. I mean, 47 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: you were a young man at this point, right, and 48 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: you know when your father was a young man, he 49 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: had gone through a really really hard thing um and 50 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,839 Speaker 1: lost his brother, and his brother took his life as 51 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: a very young man, and maybe that whole period of 52 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: time in a life you know, felt like, you know, unconsciously, 53 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: like some kind of repetition for your father, like I 54 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: just can't I can't be close to someone at this age. 55 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: Does that make any sense? It does make sense. And 56 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: you know, as you're saying, I, I don't, I don't 57 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: want to push that necessarily either, because I don't know 58 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: if that's what was going on for him. But you're 59 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: hitting on something which has been very profound for me 60 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: in the aftermath of this story, which is that one 61 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: of the things that's difficult for me about this story 62 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: is that I don't know that I did a good 63 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: enough job of considering my dad's emotional journey and all 64 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: the possible ways that he might have experienced My young 65 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: adulthood and adulthood based on what he'd been through at 66 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 1: the time that I was working on the story, because 67 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: I was working so hard to understand my own feelings, 68 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: and in doing that, I think, well, I had a 69 00:04:55,800 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: very powerful experience actually in the aftermath of telling the story. 70 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: And maybe I'll just tell you about it because I 71 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 1: think it will be a youthful or useful illustration of this, 72 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: which is this is going to sound unrelated, but it isn't. 73 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 1: I am a huge baseball fan. It's something that I 74 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: talked about a lot in the story. That's something that 75 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: I get from my dad. It's a big thing that 76 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: we have shared about a lot over the years. UM. 77 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 1: And I now that I live in New York, UM 78 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: can't watch my beloved Baltimore Orioles on TV unless I 79 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: pay for a subscription to this thing called MLB TV, 80 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: which allows you to watch games out of market. And 81 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: one of the things that I know all about it, 82 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: I've got to got two Red Sox fans in my house. 83 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: So okay, okay, so you know of what I speak. Um. 84 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: And one of the things that is a blessing and 85 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: a curse about MLB TV is not only can you 86 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 1: watch the games out of market, but you can watch 87 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: them on tape delay, so you can start the game 88 00:05:54,920 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: from the beginning, um, as though at whatever time you want. So, 89 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: since I often get home from work kind of late 90 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 1: at night, say nine or ten, UM, one thing that 91 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: I will often do is make myself a late night 92 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: dinner and sit down and watch the Orioles game from 93 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: the beginning, having studiously avoided the Internet all evening so 94 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: that I don't know what happens in it, and then 95 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: watch it as though, um, it's happening in real time. UM. 96 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: And So it was opening day of the two eighteen season, 97 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: and I came home from work and I sat down 98 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: to do exactly that, UM. And I got a text 99 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: message from my dad around the time I sat down 100 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 1: to do this. And at this time, UM, things that 101 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: were a little rough between me and my dad in 102 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:50,919 Speaker 1: the aftermath of the story, UM, because I think it 103 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: was it was exposing in a way that he was 104 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 1: not expecting it to be, and it had resulted in 105 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: this scenario where I I would get a little pang 106 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 1: of fear when I would get a text message from 107 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: him or a voicemail from him, because I was afraid 108 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: that he was going to be upset. And it was 109 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: Opening Day, and I had had a long day at work, 110 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: and I just really wanted to watch the game and 111 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: not engage with anything resembling an anxious or negative thought. Um. 112 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: And so I didn't look at the text message, and 113 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:31,559 Speaker 1: I watched the Orioles game, which memory serves when extra innings. Um. 114 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: But if it wasn't extra innings, the way that it 115 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: ended was on a walk off home run by Adam Jones, 116 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: who was one of my favorite players and obviously the 117 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: most dramatic possible way for a baseball game to end, 118 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: let alone an opening day baseball game. And so Adam 119 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: Jones hits this home run, I'm feeling thrilled. I'm feeling 120 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: relieved from all this tension that had built up during 121 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: the game, and I think to myself, okay, it's it's 122 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: finally okay to look at this text message from my dad. 123 00:07:58,240 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: And when I look at the text message, it's a 124 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: is ah, it's too music note emojis, um, which I 125 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: didn't even know he knew how to use emojis, and 126 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:15,119 Speaker 1: it says walk off and then um, there's a follow 127 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: up message that says oops. Please disregard this message if 128 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: you're watching the game on tape delay. And I don't 129 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: know what it was, but I didn't. UM. I'm sorry. 130 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: I haven't really talked about this before, but UM, I 131 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 1: just was overwhelmed by how considerate that was on his part, 132 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: and the fact that he remembered that that might be 133 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: something that I was doing today, and even if he 134 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: remembered it after the fact, he wanted to write and 135 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: let me know that he remembered. And I looked at 136 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 1: this message and I just started crying and crying and 137 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: crying in this way that I have I don't know 138 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: if I've ever cried like that before, and I just 139 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: kept saying this phrase out loud, over and over again. 140 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: My girlfriend at the time was there, thankfully, and was 141 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,599 Speaker 1: kind of talking me through this um and was understandably 142 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: a little confused about why I was having this huge 143 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 1: response to this seemingly benign text message. But it was 144 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: that I think it made me realize that there were 145 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 1: so many things, so many ways over the years, when 146 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: my experience of our relationship was that it was eroding 147 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: or growing distant, there were all these ways that I 148 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: think he was trying to reach out and I wasn't 149 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 1: seeing it, and I wasn't welcoming it because I wanted 150 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: to go back to the way things were when I 151 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: was fifteen and sixteen years old, and I wanted him 152 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 1: to be reaching out in the ways that he did then, 153 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: which you know, maybe is valid or maybe isn't valid, 154 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: But it closed me off to the reality that he was, 155 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways trying to reach out to 156 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: me as an adult and as a peer, um and 157 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: somebody who cared about me, not as a teenager anymore, 158 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: but as a grown person, and that I had been 159 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: so busy trying to to tell this other story that 160 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: I had missed all of that and been so in 161 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: a way, I was the one who had been denying 162 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: him this form of connection that he was looking for, 163 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:30,559 Speaker 1: and I just felt awful about it. Yeah. Well, and 164 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: and also I imagine because you were underestimating him right 165 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,679 Speaker 1: in that moment, you were like that this text message 166 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: could be anything, right, Um, just that feeling, the feeling 167 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: of like, maybe this is going to be something I 168 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: don't want to read and it's and it ends up 169 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:47,719 Speaker 1: being well, in fact, you didn't want to read it 170 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: because it would have he wouldn't have been able to 171 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: have watched the game quite in the same way. But 172 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: but you didn't want to read it. Not not for 173 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: those reasons, but because you were a little you know, 174 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: a little afraid of of what, you know, what my 175 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: what it might contain. Yeah, and he was just he 176 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: was just trying to say hi, you know, and I 177 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: see you. I mean, you know the subtext of that 178 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: was I see you, I see you. Yeah, And I 179 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: mean so much of that episode to me actually is 180 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: you you know, about you wanting him to see you. Um. 181 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: And you know, there's there's this kind of it's almost 182 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: like a difference in your emotional temperatures, right, Like, so 183 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:34,679 Speaker 1: your emotional temperature around this discovery about Uncle Dick is 184 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: is highly emotionally charged. And you you know, you want 185 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: to know everything that you possibly can about Uncle Dick. 186 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: And and there's a very moving part of the episode 187 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:49,719 Speaker 1: where you actually go to the place, um where he 188 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: took his own life. UM. And you know have this 189 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: experience of you know, kind of attempting too and feeling 190 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: like you do connect with him in some way. UM. 191 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: And it's very very emotionally charged for you. And then 192 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 1: on the other hand, there's your dad um who says 193 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: at one point UM in a very like the opposite 194 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: of highly emotional charged right um way, he says, regarding 195 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 1: the experience that he had with his brother, I never 196 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: felt it was highly formative. And you know, when I 197 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: heard him say that, I didn't believe that for a second. 198 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: But I believe that he believed it. And and I 199 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: wondered about the um what does the emotional cost? I mean, 200 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: I wonder about this all the time, and in in 201 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: all of the episodes of family Secrets and in my 202 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: own life and with my own family secret that I discovered. 203 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: You know, there's there is um a price that is 204 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: paid for that kind of stuffing down, you know, of 205 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 1: of something so important and just deciding that it's not formative, 206 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: deciding that it um, it's in the past and we're 207 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: going to leave it there. Yeah, I agree, And I think, 208 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: I mean, this brings up such an important question in 209 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: the work that if I made both of us do 210 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 1: and that it sounds like we both think about a lot, 211 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: which is when you are the person whether we're talking 212 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 1: about UM, my dad or my mom or any of 213 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: the people who UM from the past who are wrestling 214 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 1: with these things in the momentum that becomes secrets or 215 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: become ghosts. Something that I'm always wrestling with and trying 216 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 1: to figure out the significance of is that person in 217 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: that moment in the past doesn't feel like they have 218 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: a choice. The choice is I can either be undone 219 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: by this trauma that is, well maybe trauma's I guess 220 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: traumas not the right word there. I can be undone 221 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: by this thing that has happened. I can be completely 222 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: washed away into the sea of my emotions that are 223 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: too big to comprehend. Or two at this often formative age, 224 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: when you know on some level instinctively that you don't 225 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: have the emotional equipment to do that, to just go 226 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: onward and um, the fact that they made the choice 227 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: to go onward is oftentimes why people in our position, 228 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: or you know, the people that we tell stories about 229 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: position to look back in the first place, because this 230 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: person in that moment made the decision to continue the 231 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: family in some way, UM, and that led to our 232 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: birth and development and emotional maturity. UM. To even know 233 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: that there might have been another path in that moment, 234 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: or that there is something unfinished related to that incident 235 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: that happened, and so it can be tempting to judge 236 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: them for the choice they made at that time to 237 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: just push through and keep going, But that is a 238 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: that is a privilege of not having our survival predicated 239 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: on that on that choice, UM. And I think it's important, 240 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: I guess, probably to note here that there's a difference 241 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: of degrees. You know, Um, sometimes the secret from the 242 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: past is, um, something that might have been like a 243 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: crime or something that you know, people should be held 244 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: to count for some kind of violence or something like that, 245 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: And I guess that would color this a little bit differently. 246 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: But when it's something like a traumatic experience that a 247 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: parent went through, just to keep it in that realm Um, 248 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: it's a very odd position to be in to be 249 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: a descendant of this this parent and the person that 250 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: they had their experience with when they were young, and 251 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: to feel like it's important to go back and understand 252 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: the truth of what happened. But I don't judge you 253 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: parent for making the choice you made at the time. 254 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 1: Like that's a weird space to to exist in. Does 255 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: that make sense? It makes perfect sense to me. There 256 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: there's a moment in um Inheritance my memoir where I'm 257 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: like in the middle of all this discovery about my 258 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: parents and the choices that they made, and I feel 259 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: very betrayed that such a huge secret about my own 260 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: identity was kept from me. And then I'm in a lecture. 261 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: I was in Miami, actually at a lecture, and the 262 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: author who was giving a lecture spoke about present is um. 263 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: And it wasn't something that I had thought a lot 264 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: about present is m I wasn't even sure I knew 265 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: exactly what he ent And I ended up reading, reading 266 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,439 Speaker 1: up quite a bit on present is um and and 267 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 1: essentially UM it would be defined as UM judging the 268 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: past through the lens of the present, so the lens 269 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: of everything that we now know psychologically, emotionally, intellectually, societally, culturally, UM, 270 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: and ascribing those qualities to the people in the past 271 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 1: who made whatever choices that they did. And it was 272 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: a real sort of light bulb moment for me UM, 273 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: and I realized that part of my work in understanding 274 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 1: as much as I possibly could about the past about 275 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 1: my parents was going to be in being able to 276 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 1: see them as the human beings that they were before me. 277 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 1: And I think that that's part of the work of 278 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: maturity full stop, you know, not just writing about it 279 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: or making podcasts about it, but actually moving through life 280 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: in general. Is to be able to see the people 281 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: that you come from as people and not um just 282 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,880 Speaker 1: as as mom and dad and and and what you're 283 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: saying to you know. I used to think that the 284 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: phrase you know, she did the best she could. You know, 285 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: he did the best he could, that sort of you know, 286 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 1: they did the best they could. I used to think 287 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:37,400 Speaker 1: that that phrase was just pure um cliche or um 288 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: like that it didn't really mean anything. But I've actually 289 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: come to think that it does mean something. People people 290 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: generally do the best they can. Yeah, and whatever that 291 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 1: means with what life has handed them at the time, Uh, 292 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 1: that life has handed them whatever is on their plate. 293 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: And then you know, time goes on and there absolutely are, 294 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: after a facts and ripple effects of um, the choices 295 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: that were made and the choices to get on with things, 296 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: and the people who hold those you know, who hold 297 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: all that usually is the next generation or even the 298 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 1: generation after um. You know, it's it's not as if 299 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: it goes away. Um. I think what we're talking about, though, 300 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:27,880 Speaker 1: is the is the judging, which is ultimately toxic and 301 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: and as you said, also, it depends on it depends 302 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: on what we're talking about. Uh, judging can be completely 303 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 1: reasonable in certain situations, but in terms of what we're 304 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: talking about of people dealing with family tragedies really um 305 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: and making making choices that they're going to You know, 306 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 1: this is very much true with Holocaust survivors. You hear 307 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 1: so many, so many children of survivors. The parents never 308 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: wanted to talk about it. Ever, that was then this 309 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: is now, life goes on. Of course, the children then 310 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,479 Speaker 1: inherited that and want, you know, and wanted and needed 311 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: ultimately to know more. But you know, for the parents, 312 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: it was, UM, I can't talk about this because if 313 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: I talk about this, I'm going to lose my mind. 314 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 1: So we're not going to do that. We're gonna gonna 315 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: build a new life. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with you 316 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: so much about this, And UM, I think, at the 317 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: risk of coming across as self aggrandizing or something, UM, 318 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 1: I think that it's an important part of I don't 319 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 1: want to claim that, you know, this is an impact 320 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: that my work is having. But the reason I think 321 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 1: it's that telling these stories and telling them in a 322 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:46,880 Speaker 1: responsible way matters is because I think it's a very 323 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 1: important way of understanding history and humanity. There's a moment 324 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: late in the episode about your uncle Dick where you 325 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 1: say to your father on sick of hiding behind the 326 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 1: curtain and um or maybe you don't say it to him, 327 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: maybe it's a narration, but you you say, I'm sick 328 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: of hiding behind the curtain. That's what I needed him 329 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: to hear. And you know, I'm thinking about that in 330 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: relation to the story that you told about the texts, 331 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: because really you wanted Poppy to see you and and 332 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: you wanted to see Poppy. And that's really it. That's 333 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: really all we're ever asking of each other is um. 334 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: And that's where that's where secrets become so corrosive and toxic, 335 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: because they prevent us from being able to actually see 336 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: and be seen. UM. But it's this, it's this, it's 337 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 1: a really it's a really moving moment and and it's 338 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: and it's a funny moment too, because you're in the 339 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: studio with him and he's like, you know, and you're 340 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: having this emotional moment with your dad and he says, 341 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: you know, it's weird to be in this setting talking 342 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: about all this stuff with the microphones and the headphones 343 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: and you know, can we can we just give each 344 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: other they are hugs somehow without you know, it was 345 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: it was such a great moment. Thank you, thank you. 346 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: Yeah he I think, he says, Um, he says, I 347 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: feel like I'm in a New Yorker cartoon or something. 348 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: But you know, I just I resonate so much with 349 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: with what you said about this, this fundamental question of 350 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 1: that we're all asking each other is like, I think 351 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,719 Speaker 1: I see you? Do you see me? Um? And it 352 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,239 Speaker 1: makes me think of an experience that I had in 353 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: another conversation about the show, UM that felt really formative 354 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: for me in terms of trying to always have a 355 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 1: better understanding of what I'm trying to do and what 356 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: the best way to do it is. And this person 357 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: said to me, and this is somebody who's um opinion 358 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: about art and storytelling I respect very very deeply. But 359 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: they said that they had a hard time with the 360 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: show because they expected it to be quirkier. They they 361 00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 1: thought that they saw that it was gonna be a 362 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: show called Family Go So and they expected it there 363 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 1: to be quirky characters and UM to be more darkly comedic. 364 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 1: I guess in some ways, And I felt like I 365 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 1: completely understand that as an expectation because a lot of 366 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: times when we see storytelling about families, that is a 367 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: tweak that is placed on the narrative um for whatever 368 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,479 Speaker 1: creative reason that people telling that story decide to do it. 369 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: But that a lot of these things are difficult to 370 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: sit with and and adding an element of quirk makes 371 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: it easier to sit with, but is not necessarily true 372 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: to the impulse of conveying the weight of a secret 373 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 1: or the weight of a ghost um about which there 374 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:02,400 Speaker 1: is often nothing quirky or funny um, And that that's 375 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: a I'd like to lean into that space to whatever 376 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: extent I'm capable of in this kind of storytelling, not 377 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: to a point that it makes a listener uncomfortable and 378 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: want to tune out, but to a point that pushes 379 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: past the desire to say, uh, cookie, uncle whoever, but 380 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 1: actually think, what were the decisions that uncle whoever was 381 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: faced with? Is there any way that I can understand 382 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: the circumstances he was in when he made them and 383 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: think about how that's affected me? Right, right, Because ultimately, 384 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: leaning into those moments is not about going darker or 385 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: you know, more sinister or it's in fact kind of 386 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:57,199 Speaker 1: the opposite of that, because um in in staying with 387 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: that place that might be a little bit uncomfort rble, 388 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: you know, where um, you know, a little levity and 389 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: a little quirk might just make everybody be like, okay, 390 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: well that was you know, We're good now. Um is 391 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 1: actually where we end up connecting and it's it's it's 392 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: where um we you know, the listener, the reader, the 393 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: um you know, this is this is where I think 394 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: people end up feeling like, oh right, this is this 395 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,120 Speaker 1: is the real stuff. I've got this stuff too, and 396 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:36,160 Speaker 1: and and it makes people feel a little bit better about, 397 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 1: you know, themselves, and a little bit less alone in 398 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: the world because we all have it. Yeah, it's it's 399 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: it's in. That's the tagline of our shows. Every house 400 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: is haunted. Um, it's it's in. It's in all of us, 401 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: and it's in, it's in every family. And a huge 402 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: part of the impetus for me and wanting to do 403 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: a project like this was the first acting class that 404 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,160 Speaker 1: I ever took. When I got to college. I had 405 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: this professor who was one of those one of those 406 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: professors in whatever discipline. Although I think there's a lot 407 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 1: of them in theater classes who just completely remakes your 408 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: perspective on the world, you know, with some tossed off 409 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: phrase that they probably didn't even think about that carefully. 410 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 1: But he was talking to us about UM the great 411 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: dramas in UM theater, not just American theater, but UM 412 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 1: world theater throughout history, and he said, all the greatest 413 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: dramas begin with the family. And he said this is 414 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: true of Clifford Odets when he's talking about struggling, you know, 415 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: depression or post Depression era families in Hell's Kitchen in 416 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: New York City, or whether we're talking about UM, the 417 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: Greek tragedies or the Shakespearean histories, these are all families 418 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 1: struggling to confront the secrets and ghosts that live in 419 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: their houses. And it was a huge moment for me 420 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: to hear him say that, because it's somehow made a 421 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:23,199 Speaker 1: connection between why stories like that for me personally, have 422 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: always felt so magnetic and revelatory and like I have 423 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: to ruminate on them for days and days afterwards because 424 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 1: they feel like they've stirred something up UM. As opposed 425 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: to I've never been somebody who's drawn to fantasy or 426 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: action or um even comedy to a certain extent. I 427 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: can enjoy all those things. But but family stories in 428 00:27:53,600 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 1: fiction have always really really pulled at me. And I 429 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 1: think there was this this realization when he said that 430 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,880 Speaker 1: that the reason that's happening is because they're coming from 431 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 1: this thing that is real and lives inside of all 432 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 1: of us, and whether it's fictional or not, that that 433 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: imprinting is coming through in this type of storytelling. And 434 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: so I was really interested in this question of what 435 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 1: if you removed the fictional layer from that? What if 436 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:35,479 Speaker 1: you what if you tried to tell the kinds of 437 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: stories that might prompt that sort of fictional storytelling. Could 438 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: you could you find could you find something else? Could 439 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: you find something very rich? Um? And with that there's 440 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: this challenge, right, which is, if it's a fictional story, 441 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: you get to make up the ending, and you get 442 00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: to you get to arrange the event of the story 443 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: in such a way that they have the maximum emotional weight. 444 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: And time after time and our work on family ghosts, 445 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: when we're sorting through something, you know, all the tape 446 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: that we have for a story, we come up against 447 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: this question of you know, well, this would be the 448 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: most dramatic way of structuring this. But is it what 449 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: really it feels true to the person whose story we're telling. Um? 450 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: Is it Actually it might be the most interesting way 451 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: of telling the story, but is it what is actually 452 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: shaping this person's way forward in the world. Um. And 453 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: that element of things I think is it's a real 454 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: leap of faith because you're having to trust that people 455 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: will resonate it with the way and you've in the 456 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: way that you've described, which is I feel less alone 457 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:54,719 Speaker 1: because I recognize the inner quest that this person is on. Yeah. 458 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: And and you know, there's the intimacy of this form 459 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: that I think allows for that um and more than 460 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: more than any other form, UM, it allows for you know, 461 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: that sense that, um, you know someone is listening. People 462 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: don't I mean, I don't think people tend to listen 463 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: to podcasts and groups. It's it's a very it's not 464 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: a communal experience, you know, it's often like literally like 465 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: literally in your head with you know, AirPods on. And 466 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: so there's something very intimate about that. And UM And 467 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: I think I think two that there's a desire that 468 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: we all have in this world where everything is being 469 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: shaped constantly UM and being curated and edited. And you know, 470 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: our experience walking through the world is being created, curated, 471 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: and edited and in ways that we often aren't even 472 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: aware of, where when something actually is sort of hewing 473 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: as closely as possible to the real uh and the 474 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: true UM that there's something for from me. I know, 475 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: you know selfishly that that's what I want to hear, 476 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: So that is therefore what I want to do because 477 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: it feels um like, you know, the richest possible storytelling 478 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: is the storytelling that is hewing as close to experience 479 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: as as as as we can. Yeah, I think about 480 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: it a lot of times, like, um, you know, there's 481 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: this ridiculous and I think I'll just go ahead and 482 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: say toxic for society. Phenomenon of metrics associated with tweets, 483 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: Like when somebody puts out a tweet, Um, there's these 484 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: numbers that appear underneath it to measure the relevance of it, 485 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: And I think it creates this um emotional ecosystem where 486 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: people feel like they need to express themselves in this 487 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: particular format in such a way that it gets the 488 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: highest scores and you know, speaks to the broadest possible 489 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: number of people so that those numbers will be as 490 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: high as possible. And I think something that is wonderful 491 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: about both listening to a podcast or radio story UM 492 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: and telling that story is that it's like, you know, 493 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: even though in speaking into the microphone you're theoretically addressing 494 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: any number of people, in that moment, you're only talking 495 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: to one person that the person who's listening UM and 496 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: as the listener, even though you know that a million 497 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 1: other people might be listening to this episode, the person 498 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: you're listening to, it's like they're only talking to you. 499 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 1: I'd like to thank Sam Dingman for telling us his 500 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: story today. You can find this episode detailing his family's 501 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: secret one of Your Business on Family Ghosts Podcast, and 502 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: you can find out more about Sam and listen to 503 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: season two of the podcast on Family Ghosts podcast dot com. 504 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I 505 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to 506 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: your favorite shows,