1
00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:12,240
Speaker 1: Hey, hey, hey, we're back. We're black. We're super black today.

2
00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:13,560
Speaker 2: That means we have a guest.

3
00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:21,760
Speaker 1: We're brown. Ambition, ambition, ambition, ambition, ambition. Hey Mander, how

4
00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:22,480
Speaker 1: are you today? Love?

5
00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:23,840
Speaker 2: Hello, gorgeous.

6
00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:25,759
Speaker 3: I'm doing you know.

7
00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:28,320
Speaker 1: I love a shoulder. You're giving us this pink, bluffy

8
00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:28,880
Speaker 1: shoulder today.

9
00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,440
Speaker 2: Oh thank you. I finally unpacked my suitcase from my

10
00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,280
Speaker 2: vacation last month. I'm so glad we have a psychologist

11
00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:36,279
Speaker 2: here so you can talk about my anxiety and how

12
00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,839
Speaker 2: it stops me from unpacking. And this was in there,

13
00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:40,840
Speaker 2: and I was like, I did get this from Tarja.

14
00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:45,080
Speaker 2: Ooh yeah, thanks though, How you doing?

15
00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,199
Speaker 1: I feel good? You know, my skin is glowing. I

16
00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,360
Speaker 1: just came back from Sophora, so I was like, I

17
00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,480
Speaker 1: want a tinted moisturizer. And so we'll see, because you

18
00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:55,440
Speaker 1: know when.

19
00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,800
Speaker 2: You get brand Nars, I like Nars.

20
00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,280
Speaker 1: I let me see. I got and I tried that lip,

21
00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:04,240
Speaker 1: Remember that friendly lip.

22
00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:08,319
Speaker 2: You were like, girl, it was yes, uncensored, it was

23
00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:11,720
Speaker 2: not it. You tried the Rianna super Bowl lip. You

24
00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:13,440
Speaker 2: gotta find your own shade test.

25
00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:15,000
Speaker 1: I did, and I tried on a bunch of hers

26
00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:16,640
Speaker 1: and like the reds and it wasn't really you know,

27
00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:22,040
Speaker 1: doing it but for men, like what is this color granada?

28
00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:24,240
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, it actually is really cute. It's

29
00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:28,240
Speaker 1: like deep number two. And then I heard Patrick Starr.

30
00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,280
Speaker 1: He's like, you know, famous, like duty YouTuber. He's got

31
00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:34,319
Speaker 1: like this like setting spray that's called that's called on

32
00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:36,520
Speaker 1: till dawn. So I'm like, because I'm always like a greasy,

33
00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:38,679
Speaker 1: hot mess, like an hour after like putting on a

34
00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,440
Speaker 1: little light beat. So I said, we fannasy because I

35
00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,280
Speaker 1: saw one of my favorite Kila Walker. She's like beautiful,

36
00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:46,960
Speaker 1: beautiful black girl influencer, and you know she always looks

37
00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:49,040
Speaker 1: amazing and so she swears by it. You know, I'm

38
00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:50,880
Speaker 1: trying to get my family and all you already know. Girl,

39
00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:56,720
Speaker 1: it's been a journey. I was done, you know, you see,

40
00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:58,280
Speaker 1: I abandoned the lastes. I was like, girl, no one

41
00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,680
Speaker 1: has time of lasses every day, but for you fashion girlies,

42
00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:03,080
Speaker 1: how do you live this life?

43
00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,120
Speaker 2: I like to buy them. I'm aspirational with the lashes.

44
00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,400
Speaker 2: They never actually make their way to my face, so

45
00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:10,639
Speaker 2: I just have that's a lot of work.

46
00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:12,320
Speaker 1: I said, you know what, I'm just gonna find a

47
00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,519
Speaker 1: really good Mascarra, because I don't know how the girlies

48
00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:16,840
Speaker 1: do it every day. I said, how do you leave

49
00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:18,720
Speaker 1: the house without like three hours worth of prep? I

50
00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,960
Speaker 1: just I'm not built for it. So this is this

51
00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,400
Speaker 1: is as good as it gets right here. So anyway,

52
00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:27,440
Speaker 1: you know, before we get too far into our chat,

53
00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:32,359
Speaker 1: we have an amazing guest today which I'm so excited about.

54
00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:34,679
Speaker 2: Another podcast pioneer.

55
00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:39,440
Speaker 1: Yes, she's awesome. If you've heard of Therapy for Black Girls,

56
00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:44,000
Speaker 1: which you know you have, then you should know doctor Joy.

57
00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:49,200
Speaker 1: She is amazing. So doctor Joy Harden Bradford is a

58
00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:53,200
Speaker 1: licensed psychologist, speaker, and the host of the wildly popular

59
00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,880
Speaker 1: mental health podcast Therapy for Black Girls. I've been on,

60
00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,600
Speaker 1: she was awesome. Her work focuses on making mental health

61
00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:04,480
Speaker 1: topics more relevant and accessible for black women, and she

62
00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:09,480
Speaker 1: delights in using pop culture to illustrate psychological concepts. She's

63
00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:14,519
Speaker 1: been featured in The O and Oprah Magazine for Best, Bustle, MTV,

64
00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,200
Speaker 1: Huffington Post, Black Enterprise, for Fine News twenty nineteen, Vogue

65
00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:20,480
Speaker 1: in Essence, and I'm sure more and more and more

66
00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,440
Speaker 1: and more. She got a book coming out, you know,

67
00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,640
Speaker 1: Sisterhood Heels. Yes, and so we were so happy to

68
00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:29,440
Speaker 1: have her in the still today.

69
00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,880
Speaker 4: Hey, doctor Joy, Hey y'all so excited to be here

70
00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:33,480
Speaker 4: with you.

71
00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,520
Speaker 2: One of the best voice in podcasting. You must hear

72
00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:38,400
Speaker 2: that all the time.

73
00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:40,400
Speaker 4: You know. It's so funny because when I run into

74
00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,720
Speaker 4: people in real life, they're like, oh my gosh.

75
00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:44,040
Speaker 3: You sound just like the podcast.

76
00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:45,800
Speaker 4: I don't know if they thought it was like just

77
00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:46,920
Speaker 4: a podcast voice.

78
00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,880
Speaker 2: But and you're from Georgia, right, You're in Atlanta.

79
00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,360
Speaker 4: I'm in Atlanta, but I'm originally from Louisiana.

80
00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,360
Speaker 2: I think that's why I love it. It reminds me

81
00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:56,880
Speaker 2: of home. I'm a Southern girl. I'm from Georgia originally.

82
00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,040
Speaker 2: But anyway, you just sounds so comforting. I would sit

83
00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:02,320
Speaker 2: on your couch and pour my soul out.

84
00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:03,680
Speaker 3: Thank you.

85
00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:08,520
Speaker 2: And Tiffany never checks her email.

86
00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:13,119
Speaker 1: That's the joy. But oh maybyd check email? I mean,

87
00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:13,960
Speaker 1: here's the thing.

88
00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,080
Speaker 2: You have people for that. I'm sure huh no.

89
00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,360
Speaker 1: But when we started many knew who she lived that with.

90
00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,400
Speaker 2: It was you should get into that, doctor Joy. Why

91
00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:31,880
Speaker 2: is a control freak always attracted to the project A slacker?

92
00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:32,960
Speaker 1: No, not a slacker.

93
00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:35,840
Speaker 2: It's because I knew she wouldn't bother me. I could

94
00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,960
Speaker 2: just do whatever I wanted. We're a great team. I

95
00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,760
Speaker 2: really think so, because I'm more because you're definitely you

96
00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:44,400
Speaker 2: get in the weeds when when it you know.

97
00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,960
Speaker 1: When you really need Yeah, but like honestly, I'm like,

98
00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:48,719
Speaker 1: maybe whatever you want to, just do it, that's fine

99
00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:48,919
Speaker 1: with me.

100
00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:50,599
Speaker 2: She's like, no, we're not going to teach yourself how

101
00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:54,160
Speaker 2: to podcast, like and all that kind of stuff. You know,

102
00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:56,279
Speaker 2: I did enough for me to turn on my camera, like,

103
00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:01,280
Speaker 2: and we have had an eight year long or I

104
00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:03,600
Speaker 2: guess night because knew you before, like almost a decade

105
00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:08,720
Speaker 2: long professional sliding into personal relationship over the years. And

106
00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,440
Speaker 2: I just think that even you know, as I was,

107
00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:13,880
Speaker 2: I'm so excited for doctor Joy's book again the title,

108
00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,719
Speaker 2: what's the full government name? Sisterhood Heals I never did,

109
00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,560
Speaker 2: the Transformative Power of Healing in Community.

110
00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:22,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

111
00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,839
Speaker 2: So, And I actually learned about the book from your podcast,

112
00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,400
Speaker 2: Doctor Joy, because I was scrolling through to like find

113
00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,520
Speaker 2: an episode to listen to on the road, and immediately

114
00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,440
Speaker 2: I was drawn to a one about female friendships and

115
00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,200
Speaker 2: the evolution of them because like, at this point in

116
00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,120
Speaker 2: my life and I know Tiffany too, we've we've we

117
00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,320
Speaker 2: always kind of share about our journeys and stuff. But

118
00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,640
Speaker 2: right now I'm on my I'm having my second child

119
00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,320
Speaker 2: in a month or so. I don't know if he'll

120
00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:50,680
Speaker 2: be here by the time this podcast airs, and I've

121
00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:53,919
Speaker 2: moved to the suburbs, away from the city, away from

122
00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:58,159
Speaker 2: my you know, city friends. Plus the pandemic, I feel

123
00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,440
Speaker 2: like has done a number on not just on everyone's relationships,

124
00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:03,800
Speaker 2: and I just felt like it was the show I

125
00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:05,320
Speaker 2: needed to hear. And then when I knew there was

126
00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:09,120
Speaker 2: a book, you know, I would love to start with

127
00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,560
Speaker 2: the book itself, and why, of all the things you

128
00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:14,520
Speaker 2: could have written about in the mental health space, why

129
00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,520
Speaker 2: sisterhood and friendship was so important for you to cover?

130
00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:19,479
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.

131
00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:21,880
Speaker 4: So I feel like I always knew I was going

132
00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,520
Speaker 4: to write a book. I just had never really settled

133
00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:26,760
Speaker 4: on what the book would be about. And then I

134
00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,200
Speaker 4: had a conversation with my agent and she said, there

135
00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:31,080
Speaker 4: may be many books that you write, but if you

136
00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,600
Speaker 4: had to plant your flag in the ground for this

137
00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,240
Speaker 4: first one, what would it be? What do you want

138
00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,599
Speaker 4: the world to know about you? And therapy for Black girls?

139
00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,040
Speaker 4: And it immediately came to me that it has to

140
00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:44,240
Speaker 4: be sisterhood. And I feel like sisterhood is really at

141
00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,799
Speaker 4: the foundation of so much of the work of therapy

142
00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:50,479
Speaker 4: for black girls. Sisterhood has been personally meaningful to me,

143
00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:52,320
Speaker 4: and I really feel like it is what has led

144
00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:54,720
Speaker 4: the business and the podcast and the directory and all

145
00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,560
Speaker 4: of these things to be successful, because there is a

146
00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,839
Speaker 4: way that black women move with on another that is

147
00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,520
Speaker 4: just deeply based in sisterhood. And so the book is

148
00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,560
Speaker 4: really a celebration of who we are to one another

149
00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:10,880
Speaker 4: and a guide to how we can strengthen our relationship

150
00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,400
Speaker 4: so that we can be more of that for each other.

151
00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,360
Speaker 1: Do you think like, because I I me and man,

152
00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:21,280
Speaker 1: remember Mandy, we had that episode about the bully friend. Yeah,

153
00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,520
Speaker 1: so I called like, so I used to be quite

154
00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:29,240
Speaker 1: the pushover and so I had a series of friendships

155
00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:31,960
Speaker 1: of like really close friendships where they were my friend,

156
00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,080
Speaker 1: but they also used to like low key, high key

157
00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,280
Speaker 1: bully me and I allowed it. And maybe it didn't

158
00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,640
Speaker 1: start off that way, but something some dynamics shifted, and

159
00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,600
Speaker 1: you know, it just I found myself like, wait, I

160
00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:45,320
Speaker 1: don't like that treatment. Why does she talk to me

161
00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,440
Speaker 1: that way? And I'm like, they don't talk to other

162
00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,800
Speaker 1: people that way, what's going on here? And so I've

163
00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,520
Speaker 1: since you know, ridden myself of every bully friend and

164
00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:56,720
Speaker 1: I'm more mindful of like who I attract. But not

165
00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,840
Speaker 1: just that, but how when things come up to say

166
00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,440
Speaker 1: things about you know, like what's happening like is that

167
00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,560
Speaker 1: something you cover in the book about how maybe breaking up?

168
00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,120
Speaker 1: What friendship friends look or like what healthy friendships should

169
00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:11,360
Speaker 1: look like. M hm.

170
00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:16,120
Speaker 4: So there's a whole chapter, Tiffany, about these difficult conversations

171
00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,000
Speaker 4: that I think we often don't have in friendship. And

172
00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:20,800
Speaker 4: a lot of times we don't want to have the

173
00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,760
Speaker 4: conversation because we are afraid that it means that this

174
00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,560
Speaker 4: will end the friendship. But truthfully, sometimes those difficult, awkward

175
00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:32,040
Speaker 4: conversations can actually bring the friendship closer. So these ideas

176
00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,040
Speaker 4: of jealousy in friendship or if I feel like you

177
00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,320
Speaker 4: are bullying me, like can I say that to you?

178
00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,520
Speaker 4: So there's a whole chapter there. But there's also lots

179
00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,880
Speaker 4: of information about when a friendship needs to end and

180
00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:46,560
Speaker 4: how do you let someone know that, like this friendship

181
00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:47,520
Speaker 4: has run its course.

182
00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that situation, Teff, I think that led to

183
00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:52,200
Speaker 2: a friendship ending.

184
00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I. Yeah, I mean I if I look,

185
00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,240
Speaker 1: I had like maybe about you know, four or five

186
00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,559
Speaker 1: bully friends. I'm talking about from like element school to

187
00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:04,760
Speaker 1: like grown Tiffany, and yeah, none of them are around anymore.

188
00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:06,200
Speaker 1: I had to have the hard converse. Some of them

189
00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:08,080
Speaker 1: were around since I was like a little girl, and

190
00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:10,920
Speaker 1: I had to have the hard conversation of like, this

191
00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,280
Speaker 1: is no longer a fit. Although we talked about, hey,

192
00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:16,280
Speaker 1: could you not treat me like this? And I don't

193
00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,960
Speaker 1: like that language that you use and I had let

194
00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:21,880
Speaker 1: it go so far. They didn't know how to pivot,

195
00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:24,040
Speaker 1: you know, the last friend that I let go of,

196
00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:27,440
Speaker 1: and it just continued, and I just said, I don't

197
00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,560
Speaker 1: I don't want to be in friendship with someone who

198
00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,760
Speaker 1: doesn't know how to treat me well, you know, And

199
00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:35,200
Speaker 1: I feel I mean, honestly, I thought I was going

200
00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,960
Speaker 1: to be so sad about it, but I felt it

201
00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,600
Speaker 1: was so I felt much lighter because when I look

202
00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,000
Speaker 1: around at the people who surround me now, everybody is

203
00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,600
Speaker 1: just amazing and uplifting, and so, you know, I'm happy

204
00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,440
Speaker 1: that I made that transition, although I'm sad because I

205
00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,360
Speaker 1: wonder sometimes how did I show up that allowed for

206
00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,760
Speaker 1: that you know, because, like I said, some of the

207
00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,440
Speaker 1: bully friends, if I look, they didn't treat everyone like that.

208
00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,960
Speaker 4: So I think it's important because there's again a lot

209
00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,640
Speaker 4: in the book around like group dynamics. So a part

210
00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:08,520
Speaker 4: of what I love to do in private practice and

211
00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:12,360
Speaker 4: in practice in general is group therapy. And there is

212
00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,160
Speaker 4: a lot about group therapy that I think informs how

213
00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,880
Speaker 4: we show up in our sister circles and in sisterhood.

214
00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:19,840
Speaker 4: And so I talk in the book about like the

215
00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:21,560
Speaker 4: role that we often take in.

216
00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:22,480
Speaker 3: Our sister circles.

217
00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:24,840
Speaker 4: So there are four main roles that often kind of

218
00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:29,320
Speaker 4: develop in a sister circle. The wallflower, which is kind

219
00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,600
Speaker 4: of the person who is kind of laid back in

220
00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:33,600
Speaker 4: the group, but like when they talk, they typically have

221
00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,840
Speaker 4: something really really big to say. The leader, which is

222
00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,680
Speaker 4: the person who is kind of responsible in some ways

223
00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,200
Speaker 4: for the group continuing. So if there's going to be

224
00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:46,920
Speaker 4: some gathering, that person is typically the person who organizes it.

225
00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,640
Speaker 4: There is also the peacemaker, so if two friends are

226
00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:53,840
Speaker 4: not getting along, then this is the person who will

227
00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,520
Speaker 4: frequently step in. And then the firecracker, which is the

228
00:10:57,559 --> 00:10:59,320
Speaker 4: friend in the group who will say the thing that

229
00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,680
Speaker 4: like nobody else wants to say, but she might not

230
00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:06,640
Speaker 4: say it gently. And so even in even in different circles,

231
00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:11,480
Speaker 4: sometimes we will assume one of these roles and it

232
00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:13,440
Speaker 4: may not be the same in all groups. So you know,

233
00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,040
Speaker 4: when I hear you say something like this person didn't

234
00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,880
Speaker 4: bully other people, there may have been something going on

235
00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,200
Speaker 4: in the dynamic that led them to believe that this

236
00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:23,760
Speaker 4: is how it is okay to treat me right, And

237
00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:25,720
Speaker 4: you said, I let it go on so long that

238
00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,040
Speaker 4: it was difficult for them to pivot, and it is

239
00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,319
Speaker 4: hard like once sometime it kin kind of gets locked

240
00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:32,640
Speaker 4: into who they are in the group. It can be

241
00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:34,480
Speaker 4: difficult for them to kind of see you in any

242
00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:36,839
Speaker 4: different way or for them to interact with you in

243
00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,640
Speaker 4: a different way. And sometimes that does mean that the

244
00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,640
Speaker 4: friendship has to end. When you develop a voice or

245
00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:44,319
Speaker 4: when you say this is not okay. It's and not

246
00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:46,960
Speaker 4: okay for you to treat me this way. Sometimes, unfortunately,

247
00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,040
Speaker 4: it does mean that the relationship does have to end.

248
00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,320
Speaker 2: What is group therapy? You talked about this in your

249
00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:54,839
Speaker 2: episode that I'm referring to as well, and I remember

250
00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,120
Speaker 2: feeling like, what do you mean group therapy? Because I

251
00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:01,679
Speaker 2: think about like AA H, couple's therapy. But what is

252
00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:03,600
Speaker 2: what is this group therapy you speak of?

253
00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:05,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, friend groups.

254
00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:10,120
Speaker 4: Together, So so group therapy is is kind of like

255
00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,320
Speaker 4: what it sounds like in AA is probably the most

256
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,400
Speaker 4: common thing that people hear about, though AA isn't necessarily

257
00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:19,280
Speaker 4: like group therapy. So group therapy is when typically nine

258
00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,840
Speaker 4: to twelve people get together for a collective kind of

259
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,400
Speaker 4: therapy session. And it isn't typically that you're like only

260
00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,560
Speaker 4: talking about one topic. It really is like, Okay, what

261
00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:31,959
Speaker 4: are you bringing to the group and how is that

262
00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:34,480
Speaker 4: interacting with what everybody else is bringing.

263
00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:34,720
Speaker 3: To the group.

264
00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,280
Speaker 4: So, for example, for people who struggle with something like

265
00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:41,400
Speaker 4: social anxiety, something like group therapy can be ideal because

266
00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,400
Speaker 4: what better place can you work through your anxiety and

267
00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,000
Speaker 4: social situations? And in a room of nine strangers, right,

268
00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:52,000
Speaker 4: but even huh, you don't know the other people. You

269
00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:53,760
Speaker 4: don't know the other people, So this is not like

270
00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,320
Speaker 4: you bring your friend group to therapy, though that can happen.

271
00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,120
Speaker 4: That is a different kind of therapy. That would be

272
00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:00,880
Speaker 4: more like a like a system kind of therapy, so

273
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,120
Speaker 4: kind of like a family therapy kind of thing. But

274
00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,839
Speaker 4: in this situation with true group therapy. These are people

275
00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:08,360
Speaker 4: that you do not know outside of the group, and

276
00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,520
Speaker 4: you know, even for what you share Tiffany like this

277
00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,320
Speaker 4: people pleasing kind of tendency and like this, you know,

278
00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,400
Speaker 4: acquiescing to other people. It is very likely that that

279
00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,600
Speaker 4: would also also show up in the therapy group. And

280
00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:21,920
Speaker 4: so it is an ideal situation for you to work

281
00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,360
Speaker 4: through some of these issues that you have in other

282
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:25,280
Speaker 4: places with a.

283
00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:26,080
Speaker 3: Group of strangers.

284
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:27,920
Speaker 4: Right, so it may be easier for you to have

285
00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,560
Speaker 4: this difficult conversation with somebody you only see in therapy.

286
00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:32,520
Speaker 4: But then what that means is that you can take

287
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,120
Speaker 4: those same skills to your friend group and say, hey,

288
00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,240
Speaker 4: I'm not okay with this behavior. So group therapy is

289
00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,280
Speaker 4: I think phenomenal. And there are some things that you

290
00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,720
Speaker 4: can get to in group therapy because there are so

291
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,240
Speaker 4: many other people for you to project on and people

292
00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,920
Speaker 4: are projecting on to you. There are breakthroughs you can

293
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,000
Speaker 4: have in group therapy that it would take months, if

294
00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,720
Speaker 4: not years for you to have an individual therapy.

295
00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:56,360
Speaker 2: I have to say that like, oh, sorry, Mandy, I

296
00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:57,959
Speaker 2: was gonna say where can I get Where can you

297
00:13:58,000 --> 00:13:58,720
Speaker 2: get one of those things?

298
00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:02,480
Speaker 1: Yetta, get one of these chickens sad.

299
00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,800
Speaker 2: Superior. Where can you get a group therapist session?

300
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,719
Speaker 4: So sometimes therapists will offer it as a part of

301
00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,319
Speaker 4: their practice. Some therapists have group have practices that all

302
00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,160
Speaker 4: they do is groups. So if you search around on

303
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,319
Speaker 4: like different directories, like on the Therapy for Black Girls

304
00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,440
Speaker 4: therapist directory, you can search by people who offer therapy

305
00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:23,360
Speaker 4: groups and see if there's a therapist in your area

306
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:24,360
Speaker 4: offering a group.

307
00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,640
Speaker 1: Okay, website is so critical, Like I can't tell you

308
00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,000
Speaker 1: how many times that black women, you know, reach out

309
00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:32,680
Speaker 1: to me and they ask me, like, you know, like

310
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,000
Speaker 1: can you recommend a therapist? And I always send them

311
00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,840
Speaker 1: to Therapy for Black Girls because I'm like, it's you know,

312
00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,360
Speaker 1: it might take you a little minute to find your person,

313
00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:44,240
Speaker 1: but it's so critical because I my therapist calls my

314
00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,720
Speaker 1: my people pleasing the small piece of chicken syndrome, glad

315
00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,200
Speaker 1: to her a story about how like you know, if

316
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,440
Speaker 1: there's like a big place of chicken we're all around,

317
00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,720
Speaker 1: I will always, without prompting, pick the small piece of

318
00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:57,120
Speaker 1: chicken souse. I'm like, well, I'm going to make sure

319
00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:59,720
Speaker 1: that I know Carol likes to wing and Tracy likes

320
00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,960
Speaker 1: to do likes. You know, no one will ask, like,

321
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:08,720
Speaker 1: but I will literally take the smallest, least amount of space,

322
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,240
Speaker 1: you know, to make it easy for everyone else. And

323
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:12,960
Speaker 1: then I'll find out later that no one even wanted

324
00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,680
Speaker 1: chicken and I could have enjoyed. And so she's like,

325
00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:17,800
Speaker 1: you know, so sometimes when we're talking through something, she's like,

326
00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:19,320
Speaker 1: are you sure you're not taking a small piece of

327
00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:20,440
Speaker 1: chicken again, Tiffany?

328
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:21,120
Speaker 4: Wow?

329
00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:22,320
Speaker 1: I am.

330
00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:25,760
Speaker 4: It's a beautiful analogy.

331
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,800
Speaker 1: That's also like, let's talk about that that, Like I

332
00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,800
Speaker 1: wanted a black therapist, right, So, like I love doctor Green,

333
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,960
Speaker 1: so doctor Elijah Green out of Atlanta, Georgia, because she's

334
00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:37,960
Speaker 1: got sister likes just like me. And I don't know

335
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:39,600
Speaker 1: how old doctor Green. And she could be thirty five,

336
00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:41,240
Speaker 1: she could be forty five. She's black. You know, the

337
00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:45,720
Speaker 1: range is wide with us, of course, but she's so dope.

338
00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,920
Speaker 1: And I you know, I knew for me some people

339
00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,320
Speaker 1: want like a mother figure, a father figure or whatever.

340
00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:53,560
Speaker 1: But I knew I wanted for me a sister girlfriend

341
00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,640
Speaker 1: kind of like energy from my therapist. But can we

342
00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,280
Speaker 1: talk about the importance of like why is it important

343
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,400
Speaker 1: for black women to have other black women therapists? Like,

344
00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,320
Speaker 1: because I can, she can do the small piece of chicken.

345
00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,000
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie. If Sarah told me are you

346
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,240
Speaker 1: are you chosen as mom? He said chicken? I'm like, girl,

347
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,160
Speaker 1: I'll jump to the thing we talking about chicken, But

348
00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:17,760
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like, so I'm so, can

349
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,520
Speaker 1: we talk about the importance of black women having access

350
00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:21,960
Speaker 1: to black women therapists?

351
00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,440
Speaker 4: Mm hmm yeah. So in this example, I think what

352
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,280
Speaker 4: makes that effective is this shared cultural capital. Right, so

353
00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:30,680
Speaker 4: you know that when doctor Green is talking to you

354
00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,360
Speaker 4: about chicken, it comes from a very particular place that

355
00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,400
Speaker 4: is different than if a non black therapist we're talking

356
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,320
Speaker 4: to you about that, right, And I will say that

357
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:42,080
Speaker 4: having another black women therapist is not important for all

358
00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,240
Speaker 4: black women, right, So you know, we do understand that

359
00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:47,200
Speaker 4: we're not a monolith. Everybody doesn't value the same things.

360
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,320
Speaker 4: But overall, like I would say, probably ninety percent of

361
00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,480
Speaker 4: the time, when I run into black women and they

362
00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,440
Speaker 4: talk about wanting a therapist, their preference is to have

363
00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,040
Speaker 4: another black woman therapist. And I think for a lot

364
00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,600
Speaker 4: of us it is because therapy is so uncertain and

365
00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,359
Speaker 4: like unfamiliar to a lot of us, And so we already.

366
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:05,560
Speaker 3: Don't quite know what we're getting into.

367
00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:09,040
Speaker 4: And we have the history of talking to our girlfriends

368
00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:11,399
Speaker 4: and our moms and our aunties, and we know like

369
00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:14,520
Speaker 4: that nurturing that typically happens the way that we typically

370
00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:16,560
Speaker 4: relate to one another, and we're looking to have some

371
00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,560
Speaker 4: of that also in our therapy space. And so I

372
00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,560
Speaker 4: think you know, that kind of dynamic often shows up,

373
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:24,840
Speaker 4: but of course with boundaries, right, So even though we

374
00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,720
Speaker 4: can kind of kikey about a small piece of chicken, like,

375
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:29,800
Speaker 4: doctor Green is still your therapist, right, You're not hanging

376
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:31,800
Speaker 4: out with her at the club, you know, So even

377
00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,439
Speaker 4: though there is some of this kind of shared relational space,

378
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,959
Speaker 4: it is still very much a professional boundary space so

379
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:39,679
Speaker 4: that you can get what you need out of the

380
00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:40,479
Speaker 4: therapy session.

381
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I well, I've met my therapist as a white woman,

382
00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,680
Speaker 2: but she looks like my mom, and my mom is

383
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:51,000
Speaker 2: a finlace, so we can probably unpack that. But when

384
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,440
Speaker 2: I was looking for a therapist, I was specifically looking

385
00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,560
Speaker 2: for someone who because my mom struggled with postpartum depression

386
00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:58,040
Speaker 2: and I was about to have my first son in

387
00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,920
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, and I loved the way I found her. Actually,

388
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,479
Speaker 2: I went through a prenatal yoga studio who had referred

389
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,040
Speaker 2: had like a list of great therapists who specialized in

390
00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,879
Speaker 2: like new mothers, and there weren't any women of color.

391
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,280
Speaker 2: But I found, you know, Laura, who I've been working

392
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,240
Speaker 2: with since twenty nineteen, and for me, it was it's

393
00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,320
Speaker 2: been so helpful because the motherhood for me like new

394
00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:24,399
Speaker 2: mommyhood in isolation. I mean I really I consider that

395
00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,040
Speaker 2: like a mental health emergency fund. Knowing that I can

396
00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:27,919
Speaker 2: just text Laura.

397
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:28,560
Speaker 1: You know.

398
00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:30,359
Speaker 2: I don't know if you do that Tiff too, but

399
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,320
Speaker 2: I feel like, even if I know they're not going

400
00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,359
Speaker 2: to respond, it makes me feel better to text Laura.

401
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,520
Speaker 2: Like I was having a really low day on Sunday.

402
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,520
Speaker 2: It was after the news about some shootings came out

403
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:42,440
Speaker 2: and I just wasn't able to get out of my

404
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,399
Speaker 2: negative thought spiral, and so I texted Laura, and just

405
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,440
Speaker 2: doing that just made me feel like a little bit better,

406
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:52,840
Speaker 2: you know, just having that someone to lunch to rely

407
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:54,240
Speaker 2: on me.

408
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:55,199
Speaker 1: I never thought about it.

409
00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, she kind of represents first, she represents

410
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,600
Speaker 4: the safe for you, right, So even if you know

411
00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,560
Speaker 4: she's not going to respond, like you know this, she'll

412
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:05,560
Speaker 4: likely read it, she'll likely bring it up in your

413
00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:07,679
Speaker 4: next session. And so you know, just knowing that you

414
00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,240
Speaker 4: put it somewhere means that you don't have to carry

415
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,639
Speaker 4: it right, which which allows you to unload some of

416
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:13,199
Speaker 4: that stress.

417
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,199
Speaker 2: Send her a screenshot of a text I almost sent

418
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,560
Speaker 2: my dad and thank god I did because she was like,

419
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:23,119
Speaker 2: maybe don't I like to talk that through on Thursday?

420
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,800
Speaker 2: And it stopped me from the the something that And

421
00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,479
Speaker 2: I call that big growth for me because I'm I

422
00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,040
Speaker 2: toggle between the leader and the firecracker. I just say

423
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,680
Speaker 2: it on my mind, and I guess mean the trouble

424
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,159
Speaker 2: family sometimes just like spit, you know, flying off the

425
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,920
Speaker 2: handle anyway, So it is really helpful to have that

426
00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,800
Speaker 2: like self reflection period. Let's take aim breather.

427
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:46,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know, I want to go back to

428
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,359
Speaker 4: something you say, Mandy, because I do think it's important

429
00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,120
Speaker 4: for us to talk about even if every black woman

430
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,920
Speaker 4: wanted a black woman therapist, like there's simply not enough

431
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,680
Speaker 4: of us to go around, and so you know, even

432
00:19:57,720 --> 00:19:59,560
Speaker 4: if that is your preference, and by all means, if

433
00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,080
Speaker 4: that is your preference, than tried to find a black

434
00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,480
Speaker 4: woman therapist, but unfortunately that just may not be the case,

435
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:07,600
Speaker 4: depending on where you live, depending on insurance, like lots

436
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,199
Speaker 4: of different factors, and so I do encourage people to

437
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,480
Speaker 4: be open to being surprised that, you know, you could

438
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,679
Speaker 4: have a phenomenal clinical relationship with someone who is not

439
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,200
Speaker 4: a black woman therapist. So you know, it's okay to

440
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,439
Speaker 4: go after what you want, but do be open to

441
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,080
Speaker 4: the fact that you could be surprised by the package

442
00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:25,520
Speaker 4: that is actually a great fit for you.

443
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, my first therapist actually was like a oh maybe

444
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,159
Speaker 1: he was in his thirties. I was in college, and

445
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:34,920
Speaker 1: I was really overwhelmed, and he was a like middle

446
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,000
Speaker 1: eight well maybe thirties, Like he was a white man,

447
00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,359
Speaker 1: and he was great, you know, Like a friend of

448
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,840
Speaker 1: mine had gone through a very traumatic experience and she

449
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:44,920
Speaker 1: and I talked about it so much. I was starting

450
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,640
Speaker 1: to display like symptoms of somebody who had been through

451
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:49,600
Speaker 1: that trauma.

452
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,800
Speaker 4: My Cycarians trauma, hmmm, because.

453
00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,800
Speaker 1: We were so young, we were maybe like eighteen nineteen,

454
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:57,719
Speaker 1: and we talked about it every day. She would relive

455
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 1: the trauma and we were but I thought I was

456
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,600
Speaker 1: just being a good friend by listening, and you know,

457
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,399
Speaker 1: and I would come in and honestly, he had to

458
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,040
Speaker 1: ask me, are you sure that did not happen to you?

459
00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,919
Speaker 1: Because Tiffany, you you know, I'm starting to worry, and

460
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:11,600
Speaker 1: I had to ask myself, did it happen to me?

461
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,600
Speaker 1: Because you know, it just because she was my very

462
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,320
Speaker 1: best friend since like middle school and so so. Yeah,

463
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,840
Speaker 1: so he told me she, you are not a therapist.

464
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 1: You are not equipped too, because you know, you think

465
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 1: you're grown when you're eighteen. I'm like, of course I

466
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:26,919
Speaker 1: could talk to my best friend. You know. She was like,

467
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,520
Speaker 1: you were not equipped. She needs a therapist, and you're

468
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:31,600
Speaker 1: going to have to tell her that you cannot talk

469
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 1: about it anymore with her. And that was the hardest conversation,

470
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,120
Speaker 1: you know, to tell your best friend, I can't talk

471
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,800
Speaker 1: about this anymore with you because it's affecting me so

472
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,439
Speaker 1: much that it set me to therapy, right. You know,

473
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,560
Speaker 1: I was having a hard time navigating and dealing. So

474
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,200
Speaker 1: to your point, he was great, and you know he

475
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 1: was a white man. I mean, I definitely prefer, you know,

476
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 1: a black woman, especially the space that I'm in now.

477
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,920
Speaker 1: But you know, that's just a good note, a good

478
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,520
Speaker 1: point to note that like you can have good therapy

479
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:00,639
Speaker 1: with a wide range of people.

480
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 2: So what I love about your book too is it's

481
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,439
Speaker 2: not like therapy heels, it's sisterhood. So talk to me

482
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,480
Speaker 2: about because we love therapists, we love you know, taking

483
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:13,879
Speaker 2: care of ourselves. I have my bi weekly you know session,

484
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:18,800
Speaker 2: Tiffany has hers. But friendship, sisterhood is so fundamental. And

485
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 2: I would say through my work, I launched a career

486
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,720
Speaker 2: coaching practice during the right after the pandemics sort of

487
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 2: took hold, and I was talking to dozens of women

488
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 2: of color about their careers and the one theme for

489
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:35,879
Speaker 2: me was isolation and loneliness even before the pandemic. So

490
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,440
Speaker 2: that I love the theme of your book being around sisterhood.

491
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,719
Speaker 2: Can you talk about how important it is in addition

492
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 2: to have Menbie a mental health professional in your network,

493
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 2: that you also have these relationships.

494
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,359
Speaker 4: Mm hmmm yeah. So, I mean, you know, when we

495
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 4: think about like our history of going to therapy, like

496
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:53,879
Speaker 4: I feel like this is still a very new conversation

497
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,160
Speaker 4: for us, right, and so we know that even if

498
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 4: we are also seeing a therapist, a lot of times,

499
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 4: our sister friends are on the front line of like

500
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,920
Speaker 4: the first thing that's happening with us, right, Like they're

501
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 4: the ones getting the call like girl, let me tell

502
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 4: you kind of thing, right, And that is in a

503
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,919
Speaker 4: lot of ways healing. It's not the same way that

504
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 4: you heal through therapy, but it is a very valid

505
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 4: experience of healing. And so I really wanted to be

506
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 4: able to give language and strategies for us to be

507
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 4: able to do that with one another. So, Tiffany, which

508
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:24,640
Speaker 4: you were just talking about in terms of like being

509
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,200
Speaker 4: able to hold space for your eighteen year old friend

510
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,360
Speaker 4: where you're also an eighteen year old, there's like guidelines

511
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 4: for how to do that right, so that you don't

512
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 4: center yourself in the conversation, so that you do understand

513
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 4: when it's time to actually refer them to a mental

514
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 4: health professional. So I talk about in talk about that

515
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 4: in the book, around how we can hold space for

516
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 4: one another, but how we also allow people to hold.

517
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 3: Space for us.

518
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 4: Right. So this idea that we are often really really

519
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 4: struggling to ask for help, and a lot of us

520
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:55,920
Speaker 4: are kind of like the strong friend in the group,

521
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 4: and so we don't want to be seen as we

522
00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,479
Speaker 4: are like we are a burden, but we are in

523
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 4: effect not allowing people to show up for us in

524
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,120
Speaker 4: the same way that we run to show up for them.

525
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 4: So there are lots of exercises and things in the

526
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,920
Speaker 4: book that really help us to do a better job

527
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 4: of holding space for one another. And I think when

528
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 4: you talk about like the isolation and the loneliness that

529
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 4: so many of us has experienced, like you said, even

530
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 4: before the pandemic, it is important to know that we

531
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 4: can go to other people with the things that we're

532
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 4: struggling with. Sometimes we really just drown ourselves in shame

533
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 4: because we're afraid to say this thing, because we are

534
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 4: afraid that nobody will understand us or will be judged.

535
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 4: And then we finally say it, and then we realize like, oh,

536
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 4: that wasn't as weird, or she didn't run away from me, right,

537
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,919
Speaker 4: And so that really is the power of community, is

538
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,679
Speaker 4: being able to be vulnerable and say these things that

539
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 4: are often very shameful and realize that people still love you,

540
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 4: people want to help you to take care of the

541
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 4: things that are going on in your life.

542
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 2: And maybe the people who you would have turned to

543
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 2: at a certain chapter of your life for a season,

544
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 2: as we say now, are not the right ones for

545
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 2: where you are. I think that's been the journey that

546
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 2: I've been on is being here in the suburbs, Like

547
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 2: I'm a creature. I want close friendships. I don't want

548
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 2: a ton, but I like to have a few close ones.

549
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 2: And I was so happy I made a mom friend.

550
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 2: And then like the other black mom at daycare drop off.

551
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 2: I live in a kind of yeah, not the most

552
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 2: diverse area where my son goes to daycare, but I

553
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 2: saw her across the parking lot and I looked at

554
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 2: her and I said, hey, you we should be friends, right.

555
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 2: I'm so proud of myself for doing that. I am too,

556
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 2: and that's how I feel like that's what she got

557
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 2: of do these days. And she felt the same way

558
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 2: I did. She had moved here. It turns out just

559
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 2: a year before her son was new at the daycare.

560
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 2: She's like, are there any other black families here? And

561
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 2: I have a walking date with her right after this podcast.

562
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 2: But the friends I left behind, you know, I'm in

563
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 2: this situation now with a really deep an old friend

564
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 2: of mine who I met when I first moved to

565
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 2: New York. We just were, you know, that friend who

566
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 2: just like that's your that's your twenties experience.

567
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 1: You know.

568
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 2: And I haven't seen her in months, and it makes

569
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 2: me sad, and I have been like in my mind

570
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 2: about it. Should I have a conversation with her? Should I?

571
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 2: Is it? Me? Is she did I do something? Is

572
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 2: this normal?

573
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: You know?

574
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 2: It's a little awkward when I talk to her, like

575
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 2: we have to kind of get back in a groove.

576
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,479
Speaker 2: That is that normal? I mean, I'm sure it's normal,

577
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,679
Speaker 2: But do you have people who go through that? And like,

578
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 2: what would you say to some upfront me?

579
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 1: What would you say to me?

580
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 3: Is this is my situation? Yeah?

581
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 4: So it is incredibly normal, right, And when we think about,

582
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,719
Speaker 4: you know, all the moves that we make because of family,

583
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 4: because of career, we aren't typically kind of living next

584
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 4: door to our best friends like maybe people did you

585
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 4: know years ago? And so there it is normal for

586
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 4: friendships to kind of change depending on your stage of life.

587
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 4: And I'd love to hear you say like you're making

588
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 4: new mom friends because one of the final chapters of

589
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,159
Speaker 4: the book is about like finding your people. Right, A

590
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 4: lot of people are struggling to kind of figure out like, Okay, well,

591
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 4: who are these new people in this new stage of

592
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 4: my life? And one of the tips is to look

593
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 4: around and see is there somebody in the background of

594
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 4: your life, like the person that drop off at day care,

595
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 4: that you can say, hey, like we should go for

596
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 4: coffee or we should do this, because there are often

597
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:15,679
Speaker 4: people who are kind of just we see them in

598
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 4: classes or we see them frequently, but we haven't taken

599
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 4: this step to say, like, Okay, let's kind of try

600
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 4: to take this further. And so it does require a

601
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 4: little bit of initiative to kind of you know, moving forward,

602
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 4: to see if there's something that could be there.

603
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: So if someone is like, so this has happened a

604
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 1: few times, you know, everybody knows that. Like my husband

605
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 1: passed away a little over a year ago, and so

606
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: some widows have reached out to me. Like one reached

607
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 1: out yesterday and we talked for like an hour, and

608
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: I told her. She asked me, like, how am I managing?

609
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: And I'm like, girl, I'm not, but therapy has certainly helped.

610
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: And she's like, I never thought of it. She's a

611
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: black woman as well, and I was struggling to share

612
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: with her, like what to expect from therapy because she

613
00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: was just kind of like, because, like you said, doctor

614
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 1: George new to our community, and so I was struggling

615
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 1: to say, well, here's what to expect. So if someone

616
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: is listening and they're like, you know, I would like

617
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: to ask for help. I'm struggling as a mom, I'm

618
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: struggling as whatever, a student or whatever, what can I expect,

619
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 1: you know, like when I do finally find or is

620
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 1: I start to search for a therapist? Like what Because

621
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 1: she was asking she said something really like poignant, which

622
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 1: I agree, She said, is going to therapy? Is that

623
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: going to heal my grief? And I was like no,

624
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: like obviously I miss my husband every day, just like

625
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: you miss yours. And she was just like almost like well,

626
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: then what's the point. If I'm still going to be hurting,

627
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: then what's the point. And I struggled to tell her like, well,

628
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: doctor Green gives me tools to like navigate the grief,

629
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: but like she helps me to acknowledge that grief is

630
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 1: this whole that I will learn to grow around, but

631
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: the whole never feels that's like the you know. And

632
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: I was just I had a hard time because I

633
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: was just like I feel not necessarily better, but better

634
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 1: equipped to navigate. So yeah, but I just love for

635
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: folks who are listening, like what can they expect, like

636
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: you know, from therapy, if they finally find their good therapists,

637
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: Like what can they expect?

638
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 4: Mm hmmm, Yeah, that is such a beautiful question because

639
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 4: I think a lot of people don't know, like what

640
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 4: even happens when that door closes? Like what are we

641
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 4: even talking about? And so some of it is like tools,

642
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 4: but I think, specifically in the instance of grief, it

643
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 4: is somebody.

644
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 3: To bear witness to your grief.

645
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 4: Right, So there are ways that like the people we

646
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 4: love in our life just sometimes can't show us, show

647
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 4: up for us because of their own stuff, because they

648
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 4: are afraid of what to say. What do I even

649
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 4: say in this moment? And so I think talking with

650
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 4: a therapist specifically in this kind of a circumstance, gives

651
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 4: you a place where you don't have to worry about

652
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 4: like them being overwhelmed by what you're sharing. Like it

653
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 4: is a place where you can go to like lay

654
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 4: that down. And so I'm not surprised that you leave

655
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 4: feeling maybe just a little lighter, and of course you

656
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 4: don't not miss your husband, but you have a space

657
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 4: where you can kind of process this and she helps

658
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 4: you to care and wade through all of the difficult

659
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 4: kinds of emotions that are coming up for you right now.

660
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 4: And that analogy around, you know, the ball and the

661
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 4: jar for grief, right, so that in the beginning of

662
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 4: a grief experience, like the ball takes up the entire

663
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 4: space of the jar, and then eventually the ball gets

664
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 4: a little smaller, right, so that there's a little bit

665
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 4: more space. And that is what therapy really helps you

666
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 4: to do, is to kind of process the things that

667
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 4: take up the most space in the jar, so that

668
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 4: the ball does eventually become smaller and you never get

669
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 4: rid of the grief completely, but it does feel not

670
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 4: as achy. It feels a little lighter to care eventually.

671
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one thing people expect too is to well,

672
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 2: I myself, it's frustrating because you have to kind of

673
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 2: find the right fit. And I think I went through

674
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 2: several therapists and I mean they'd be fine, but you know,

675
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 2: whether it was insurance, changing my location, changing having to

676
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 2: find a new one, but just having the patients and

677
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 2: like setting the expectation that it may not be the

678
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 2: perfect fit to start with. And this is part of

679
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 2: the process. So when I was when I was searching

680
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 2: for my therapist, I remember I interviewed like three to

681
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,239
Speaker 2: see what the vibe was once I knew they take

682
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 2: my insurance because you know, couldn't afford out of pocket.

683
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 2: But and that that helped me just to go into

684
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 2: it acknowledging, Okay, I need to treat this like I'm

685
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 2: looking for a contractor let me get free quoots and

686
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 2: see who seems strssworthy.

687
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: Yeah.

688
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 4: I do think that that is important because sometimes people

689
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 4: go into it wanting to be like the perfect client,

690
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 4: and so they will stick with it because they think

691
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:34,959
Speaker 4: that's what they're supposed to do. Right, So even if

692
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 4: I don't quite feel like this person gets me or

693
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 4: it doesn't quite feel like it clicks, they want to

694
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 4: be a good client, and so they don't feel like

695
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 4: they can say this isn't working for me. And so

696
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 4: it is important for you to know that your first therapist,

697
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 4: maybe even your first two three therapists, may not be

698
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 4: the right fit for you. But it doesn't mean that

699
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 4: you have done anything wrong or that the therapist has

700
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 4: done anything wrong. Right, like, so much of what makes

701
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 4: therapy work is the dynamic in the relationship you're able

702
00:31:58,640 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 4: to cultivate with your therapist.

703
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 3: And so if it just.

704
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 4: Doesn't feel like it's clicking for one reason or another.

705
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 4: Then it's okay for you to say I feel like

706
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 4: I may need something else. And as therapist, we're also

707
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 4: trained to do that. Right, So if I'm not the

708
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 4: best fit for you, I may know a colleague who

709
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 4: may be a better fit, depending on what you're working

710
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 4: on or how it feels like you want to structure

711
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 4: your sessions. So talking with your therapists again, having some

712
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 4: of those difficult, awkward conversations may actually lead you to

713
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 4: a therapist who would be a better fit.

714
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: So this is kind of like a brown abish kind

715
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: of like financial like spin on therapy. I wonder, like,

716
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: you know, you've been how long have you been in

717
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: this in this space not enjoy how many.

718
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 4: Years I've been licensed in two thousand and nine, so

719
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 4: at least since then.

720
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: So have you seen a shift with the way like

721
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 1: when there's economics shift, do you see that, like you know,

722
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: like how does that affect like what people come to

723
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: you for in general? Like you know, because two thousand

724
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: and nine that's when the gravest session happened. Did you

725
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 1: have a flot of people who were stressed about losing

726
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: their jobs? And then during pandemic. You know, I'm curious

727
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: as to like people's kind of like emotional needs as

728
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: the economy shifts, Like, do you see that as it

729
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: directly like correlated? Oh?

730
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 4: Absolutely, I mean in my own practice, but there's lots

731
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 4: of research that talks about like economics and like job

732
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 4: stability and all of those things being risk factors. Right.

733
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 4: We know, we spend so many hours of our day

734
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 4: in our lives at work, and so when we see

735
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 4: more layoffs, when we see you know, looming recessions, like

736
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 4: that does drive a need for therapy, but also just

737
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 4: more conversation around it, you know. So of course in

738
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 4: the pandemic, everybody was struggling with lots of different things, right,

739
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 4: Like what does this even mean? I'm anxious to go outside?

740
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 4: Friendship stuff came up a lot, So there was a

741
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 4: lot around people expecting their friends to be one way

742
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:43,719
Speaker 4: during the pandemic and then they weren't, And like what

743
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 4: does this mean? So definitely the frequency with which people

744
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 4: are seeking services and like reaching out for therapy is

745
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 4: impacted by all of the factors going on in the

746
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 4: outside world.

747
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a question about your book because I

748
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 2: listen we didn't get the book and far infinite advance

749
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 2: for me to read it. I would have definitely, because

750
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 2: you know hermione not.

751
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 1: I don't like, I don't. I would have loved. I

752
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 1: would have had it behind me.

753
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,439
Speaker 2: But doctor Joy Chapter six, I'm curious about the title

754
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 2: Chapter six, Sisters Over Systems. I'm just intrigued, what is this?

755
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 2: What is that?

756
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: Tell us?

757
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 3: Absolutely?

758
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 4: So, the book is kind of broken down into three

759
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 4: levels that sisterhood operates on. So the one on one level,

760
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,919
Speaker 4: so you and like another friend, the sister circle level,

761
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 4: so you and like your larger group of sisters, and

762
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 4: then the third level is like global sisterhood, so like

763
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 4: black women across the diaspora. And so chapter six Sisters,

764
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 4: Sisters Over Systems is specifically around all the systems patriarchy, sexism,

765
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 4: like all of the racism that really.

766
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 3: Get in the way of sisterhood.

767
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 4: So we see this often, like in the workplace, right,

768
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 4: So y'all may have been paying attention. There are conversations

769
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 4: all the time on like Twitter and Instagram around younger

770
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 4: sisters having older black women as managers and how that

771
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 4: is often a very difficult, intense kind of a situation.

772
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 4: And so in the book, I talk about how much

773
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 4: of that is really not because like I want to

774
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 4: be mean to you necessarily, but what kinds of systems

775
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,359
Speaker 4: am I a part of where only one of us

776
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 4: can succeed? Right? Like, there's so much that is kind

777
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 4: of built into the systems we operate in that make

778
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 4: it difficult for black women to actually be loving and

779
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,839
Speaker 4: affirming to one another. And so that chapter is really

780
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 4: all about all the systems that we have to pay

781
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 4: attention to and how we can do a better job

782
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,959
Speaker 4: of rejecting those systems without rejecting each other. Ooh, I'm glad,

783
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 4: I asked, because that just makes me think of like

784
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 4: even my aunts, you know, and my one aunt in particular,

785
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 4: sometimes the advice she gives me is just it's you know,

786
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 4: I used to be like, oh, I'm Brenda, she's a

787
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 4: little you know, she's what is she talking about?

788
00:35:59,120 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 2: Respect?

789
00:35:59,560 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: This?

790
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 2: Know, she's but she was from a whole different time,

791
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 2: a whole I mean, the trauma that my my my

792
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 2: dad's side the family went through, and you know, just ugh,

793
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,760
Speaker 2: it's like so much and under better at twenty twenty,

794
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 2: and through therapy also, I started to understand why it

795
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 2: was that speaking to her made me uncomfortable. And then

796
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 2: once I like sort of acknowledged where she was coming from,

797
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 2: I can now talk to her and not look at

798
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 2: it as if it's effect like it's something that reflects

799
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,720
Speaker 2: on me or something that I had to take to heart.

800
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 2: That kind of brought that up for me. And in

801
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 2: the workplace too, of course, you like older black women,

802
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 2: I feel are women of color in general. When you

803
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 2: have a new recruit, maybe it's also the way that

804
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 2: you were treated because you were mentored and developed by

805
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 2: someone who made me underestimated you the whole time, or

806
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 2: was threatened by you, and then you're sort of internalizing

807
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 2: that and you know, and then shit rolling downhill a

808
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 2: little bit. That's the you know, psycho, that's the psychological

809
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 2: way of saying it. Shit rolling down.

810
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 4: He Yeah, And I do think, you know, for a

811
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 4: lot of people, like a younger person coming in does

812
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 4: feel a little threatening, right, like are they going to

813
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 4: still be open to my ideas? Are they trying to

814
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:16,879
Speaker 4: take my job? Like what's going to be happening here?

815
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 4: And again that's a system like that. That system lets

816
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 4: us or forces us to believe that there's not a

817
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 4: space for everybody to be successful that we have to

818
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 4: kind of, you know, compete with one another, when truthfully,

819
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 4: we can build a different kind of system where there's

820
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 4: room for all of us to be successful.

821
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 2: How can we be more self aware? I mean, I

822
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 2: think therapy helps me there, But like for that person

823
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 2: who's harming other people from their own internalized you know,

824
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 2: trauma and bias and systems that have affected them, how

825
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 2: can we get more to those people to help them

826
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,359
Speaker 2: see they may need to explore and be more self

827
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 2: aware of how that can have a negative impact on

828
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 2: others around them. It's something that you can't just tell

829
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 2: someone like maybe you should talk to someone about that.

830
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 2: I just feel like that wouldn't be taken very well.

831
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 2: How do you get to them?

832
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,280
Speaker 4: So this is why I feel like podcasts are so powerful,

833
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 4: because you could slide somebody this episode and be like,

834
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 4: I have this great conversation on brown ambition, Like I

835
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 4: think it'd be cool for you to listen to, and

836
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 4: you're not directly like calling them out, but it's likely

837
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 4: they'll hear this and say like, oh, I wonder if

838
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 4: that's something people.

839
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 3: Feel about me.

840
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 4: Right, It's a perfect tool to be able to passively

841
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 4: you know, introduce a conversation without introducing it.

842
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 1: If I grow a piece of gum, like.

843
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 4: Yes, it's exactly like that, it's exactly like that, And

844
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 4: then maybe they, you know, are a little bit more introspective.

845
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 4: But I also think, you know, if somebody listens to

846
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 4: the conversation or read something in the book, it is

847
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 4: important to kind of slow down and like release your

848
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 4: defensive because our defenses, because our natural inclination is to

849
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,359
Speaker 4: be like, oh, that's not me, like I would never

850
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 4: but but you know, like let's slow down and think about, like, Okay,

851
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 4: how do younger sisters feel about their interactions with me?

852
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 4: Am I somebody who opens the door for them? Or

853
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 4: do I slam it behind me?

854
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 3: You know?

855
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 4: Am I welcoming them into environments and like setting them

856
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 4: up for success? Or am I threatened? And it's okay

857
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 4: to acknowledge that, right, Like I think sometimes those kinds

858
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 4: of emotions come up for us, like jealousy and envy

859
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 4: and all of those things, and we immediately want to

860
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 4: squash it because it makes us feel embarrassed. But it's okay,

861
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 4: Like those are natural emotions, just like happiness and sadness,

862
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 4: and it's okay to give ourselves space to explore, like

863
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 4: what's happening for me in this moment, and to then say,

864
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 4: what can I do differently now that I am aware

865
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 4: of this about my behavior? How can I apologize? In

866
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 4: what ways can I repair some of these relationships I

867
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:41,800
Speaker 4: may have damaged?

868
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 1: In your book, Doctor George, do you touch upon like boundaries?

869
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: I have not. I was historically I've not been good

870
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 1: at setting boundaries. I'm much much, much much better now,

871
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 1: and so now I've been practicing something that I like

872
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 1: to call radical transparency radical communication, right, And so that's

873
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:04,879
Speaker 1: just like when it comes up, it comes out, because

874
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,399
Speaker 1: I was definitely someone who was like, I don't say anything,

875
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:09,439
Speaker 1: and then year five, I'm like, and that's my only

876
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 1: Tuesday you said, And people are like, what the hell?

877
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 1: And so like, you know, so that's because I didn't

878
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: I didn't know how to set boundaries, just because I

879
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 1: didn't grow up like learning how to do so because

880
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,879
Speaker 1: I was people pleasing. And so is that something that's

881
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: addressed in the book, like setting boundaries, especially within sisterhoods,

882
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 1: because I feel like that's where it's really the hardest

883
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 1: in our friendships.

884
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:30,399
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.

885
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, So there's a whole chapter with scripts around how

886
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,959
Speaker 4: to have some of these difficult conversations, specifically, like I said,

887
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 4: around like people having babies, people getting engaged like that

888
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 4: is when people get really activated. It feels like in

889
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 4: sister circles, and so I do give starter language, but

890
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 4: I think it's important to know that, like you need

891
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 4: to modify the language to be your own, like how

892
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 4: would you actually talk to your own sister? And you

893
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 4: ring up a really good point, Tiffany, because a lot

894
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 4: of times we feel like we are doing the right

895
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 4: thing by not saying, like out this hurt my feelings,

896
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 4: but we are always acting out of that right. So

897
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 4: you may think that you're doing a good job of

898
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 4: not letting them know that you're you know, hurt or

899
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 4: jealous or whatever, But what ends up happening is that

900
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 4: we are passive aggressive, or we make little shady, petty comments,

901
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 4: or we sabotage events, right, and so that stuff is

902
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 4: coming out anyway, and that is typically far more damaging

903
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 4: to the relationship than if we would have just said, like,

904
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 4: you know, that really hurt my feelings. I wonder if

905
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 4: we can talk about how we can do a better

906
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 4: job of navigating a situation like this in the future.

907
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:35,439
Speaker 1: Oh that's good. I'm like, hold on that, that was good.

908
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 1: She's just off the top. That's type of time, doctor

909
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: gree That's why we pay you the big buck. That

910
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: really hurt my feelings, because you're right, you know. I'm like,

911
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,839
Speaker 1: you tell yourself, if you don't say it, it's only

912
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: going to grub if you don't say it. But you

913
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 1: get afraid to say it, you know, because I learned

914
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 1: early on that silence with safety, oh you know, And

915
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,720
Speaker 1: so I had to unpack that that's actually not true.

916
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 1: And maybe when you were nine, but not at forty three, right,

917
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 1: you know, and so like so now like I had

918
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 1: like a really there was an event I was supposed

919
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 1: to speak at. I was volunteering my time, and then

920
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 1: they started demanding more things from me, and old Tiffany

921
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 1: would have just acquiesced and said you'll learn better for

922
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 1: next time, and new Tiffany say it's next time. So

923
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: I told them I'm not participating. And the CEO reached

924
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: out to me today, was like, wait, what's happening? And

925
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: I told him, I said, you know, I volunteered my efforts.

926
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: I said, no problem, but your team keeps asking for

927
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: more things, and now they've demanded more things, and this

928
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 1: is volunteer, Like, you don't get to demand. Even if

929
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: you were paying, you still don't get to demand, you know.

930
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: And he was like, you know, he really listened, which

931
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: I was really appreciative of. And I also liked the

932
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 1: fact that, like I felt good enough to stand up

933
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 1: for myself and say that's actually not okay. You know,

934
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:53,319
Speaker 1: do you know your team doesn't it doesn't get to

935
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: talk to me like that, and here are the consequences

936
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: as a result. He was just like, I said, anything

937
00:42:57,719 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: we can do. You know, you're kind of our headline.

938
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: I said, I know that, but I'm not coming, you know,

939
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 1: like and I understand, No, I know right then in me,

940
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 1: I owe me, Oh yeah this is today girl. I

941
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 1: love for you.

942
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

943
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,760
Speaker 1: I was like, he's listening to that. Yeah, it's not happening.

944
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 1: So he was really nice though, and you know, and

945
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: I just said, you know, I'm not participating, but I

946
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 1: do appreciate you reaching out. And he was like, is

947
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: there anything you know I can do? Like, is there

948
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:25,760
Speaker 1: anything else I can do? And I was like no, Honestly,

949
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 1: if there was anything that I wanted, it would be

950
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 1: this for you to reach out and to be open

951
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 1: to hearing my feedback. And I really feel like you

952
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,919
Speaker 1: are and although I'm not participating, it makes me still

953
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,800
Speaker 1: feel good about you, you know, like in our interaction

954
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 1: and so like, you know, maybe one day in the

955
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:43,279
Speaker 1: future we can connect. But yeah, I mean, I don't

956
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,439
Speaker 1: know what flyers they printed or whatever, but the people

957
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 1: ain't gonna see me.

958
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,760
Speaker 3: But I want to say.

959
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 4: I really want you to be able to file that

960
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 4: away and make note of that for yourself for later,

961
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 4: because we don't always have like these kinds of endings, right,

962
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:59,399
Speaker 4: And I think it's important when we find that there's

963
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 4: something we st with, like assertiveness or like speaking up

964
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:05,399
Speaker 4: for ourselves, to remember those times when we did it

965
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 4: and it felt really good, right, because then that makes

966
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 4: it easier for the next time to say, like, oh, okay,

967
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 4: I need to speak up for myself again, because the

968
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:14,359
Speaker 4: last time I did this it actually worked out in

969
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:14,840
Speaker 4: my favor.

970
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely afterwards like ye me, yes, you said it, girl,

971
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 1: And I forst have to call my sister like I

972
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: did it. I did girl, because that's the sister circle. Again.

973
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 2: You know, nobody exactly exactly and it's not about never.

974
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 3: I don't know.

975
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 2: It's not like almost that you replaced that awkwardness or

976
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 2: that feeling of discomfort from having to cut ties, but

977
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 2: that you do it anyway.

978
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, And I definitely was not a do it

979
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 1: anyway person. I was always like next time, next time,

980
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 1: you know, I'll figure it out for next time, and

981
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 1: next time never came so proud.

982
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 2: I know, Doctor Joey, I want to I want to

983
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 2: ask you about the decision to close close the book

984
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 2: not to be punny friendship. I mentioned my friendship earlier.

985
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 2: I'm not ready to close the book. I'm going to

986
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,439
Speaker 2: have a conversation, you know, and reconnect with us person

987
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 2: because I love her a lot. But like one, would

988
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 2: you say, it's a sign that, okay, this relationship has

989
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 2: maybe run its course, this friendship, we need to move on?

990
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 2: And then what advice? Yeah, what'd you have about how

991
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:20,840
Speaker 2: to do that? Do you have to say anything? Yeah?

992
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:25,479
Speaker 4: So there is a whole section around like ghosting, because

993
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,720
Speaker 4: people really really take that personally when they are ghosted

994
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 4: in friendships. And I think for a lot of people,

995
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 4: being ghosted by a friend feels even worse than like

996
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 4: a romantic partner ghosting because we just make up all

997
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 4: these stories in our head about like what do we do,

998
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 4: and like when we don't have answers, we make up

999
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 4: our own answers, and they tend to be far more

1000
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 4: extreme than reality. But I think when you are thinking

1001
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 4: about whether a friendship needs to end, I think if

1002
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 4: you have done your part in terms of like saying

1003
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 4: out that hurt are called out, you know what kinds

1004
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 4: of gulfs there are but between you, or like what's

1005
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 4: making you feel hesitant in the relationship. If you brought

1006
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 4: that to them and shared that with them and had

1007
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 4: a conversation and you're still not seeing change behavior, then

1008
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 4: I think that that may be an indication that you know,

1009
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,799
Speaker 4: this friendship maybe has run its course, or if there's

1010
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 4: just some unsteadiness for some reason right, like you may

1011
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 4: not be able to name what's happening, but you don't

1012
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,399
Speaker 4: necessarily look forward to hearing from them anymore, or if

1013
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 4: you do hear from them, it feels really awkward and unpleasant,

1014
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 4: or they're always making like snarky comments or bullying you

1015
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:34,879
Speaker 4: like you mentioned, Tiffany. I think any of those things

1016
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 4: that just kind of feel unsettling, you want to start

1017
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 4: with a conversation. If this is somebody that's important to you,

1018
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,399
Speaker 4: and if you've had that conversation and the feeling still

1019
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 4: kind of lingers even though you've brought it up, that

1020
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 4: again may be an indication that the friendship has run

1021
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 4: its course. And I do think it is important to

1022
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 4: be able to have the conversation with this person because

1023
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 4: I think as a society we don't tend to do

1024
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 4: well with goodbyes, and I think goodbyes are really important.

1025
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 3: A goodbye is a.

1026
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 4: Way for you to indicate that this meant something to you, right,

1027
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,359
Speaker 4: And I think if somebody has been important to us

1028
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:10,800
Speaker 4: and there's not been any abuse or you know, anything

1029
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,359
Speaker 4: kind of malicious, it is important for us to kind

1030
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 4: of be able to say, even though this time may

1031
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 4: be over, it was important to me, and I'm like

1032
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 4: gonna let you go with well wishes, right, and giving

1033
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 4: those people finality and like closure on a situation as

1034
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 4: much as possible so they don't have all these lingering questions.

1035
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 4: And I think it's important to know that even if

1036
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 4: you make the decision to end a friendship, you may

1037
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 4: still feel really sad and like grieve what this friendship

1038
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 4: was and which you hoped it could be, but that

1039
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 4: doesn't mean that it may not be time to end it.

1040
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 2: I think for me, it's the sadness of them being

1041
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 2: absent from this really cool new chapter of my life.

1042
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 2: I can get emotional just thinking about it, Like I

1043
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,359
Speaker 2: feel like I've grown so much since we were since

1044
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 2: we were you know, in our early twenties, and I'm

1045
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 2: a mom now, I'm a business owner. I live and

1046
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 2: I moved half an hour away. But I feel like

1047
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 2: I've got this new rich really you know, really proud

1048
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 2: of myself where I'm at. It makes me so sad

1049
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 2: that I don't have my you know, my sister friends

1050
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 2: there along time me like she was for so long.

1051
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 2: But then I don't know what's happening on her end either,

1052
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 2: you know, and what she's going through, which makes me

1053
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 2: feel like am I a bad friend? And I feel disconnected?

1054
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 2: But then there's also the resentment like why isn't she

1055
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 2: Why am I the one going to the city to

1056
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 2: make plans and making the plans happen, but I'm not

1057
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 2: getting the same in return, you know, like for her

1058
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 2: to come up here meet my son, who she hasn't

1059
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 2: met since he was a baby, you know, I think

1060
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 2: I'm working through those emotions and I don't know, maybe

1061
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:43,280
Speaker 2: we do need couples therapy for friends.

1062
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:45,759
Speaker 4: Well, I think Mandy, it is important. I'm glad you

1063
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 4: shared that because it sounds like what you're feeling like

1064
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 4: is that there's a lack of reciprocity, right, like I'm

1065
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 4: the one always making the plans, I'm the one always

1066
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 4: going to the city, Like why isn't she doing that?

1067
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 2: Is it fair for me to even feel that way,

1068
00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:57,879
Speaker 2: doctor Jeory?

1069
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 4: Well, absolutely, like all of your feelings are valid, But

1070
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 4: I do wonder why you haven't asked her, like, you know,

1071
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 4: or saying something like it feels like I'm the one

1072
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 4: always making the plans or like I'm always coming to you.

1073
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,800
Speaker 4: You know, is there is there something? Is there a

1074
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,400
Speaker 4: reason why you can't come here or you know, like

1075
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 4: what's behind the fact that she's not doing it?

1076
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 3: Because it could be.

1077
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 4: The kind of thing where it's like, oh, well, I

1078
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 4: know Mandy will eventually do it, so you know, when

1079
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,359
Speaker 4: she plays something, then we'll get together and it may

1080
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 4: not even be a thing of like not wanting to

1081
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 4: see you. But if you feel like, Okay, I've outgrown

1082
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:32,919
Speaker 4: this leader role in this friendship, and now I want

1083
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:35,799
Speaker 4: to do something different. It's okay to let her know, like, hey,

1084
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 4: I want you to kind of meet me half way

1085
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:38,879
Speaker 4: as opposed.

1086
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 3: To the way we've always done things.

1087
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do the little sash for you, Mandra.

1088
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 2: I know I appreciate you because I do tend to

1089
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 2: feel like I need to go above and beyond to

1090
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:53,320
Speaker 2: earn or deserve like you know, for like friendships and stuff.

1091
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:54,840
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah.

1092
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 4: But I'm sure that shows up in your life in

1093
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 4: other places, right, And so of course it shows up

1094
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:02,799
Speaker 4: in our sister circle because we are always who we are,

1095
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 4: right like wherever we go, there we are, so to speak, Like.

1096
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 2: I had to be the one to edit and produce

1097
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 2: a show of for Tiffany to want to do it

1098
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 2: with me, I couldn't ask her for anything, and I felt.

1099
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:16,439
Speaker 1: That, well, here's the thing. I would have still said

1100
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 1: yes it, just.

1101
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 2: Know, but I felt like if I ever asked you

1102
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 2: for anything extra, you might like that might be it.

1103
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 2: And it's like, no, I wasn't good enough to want

1104
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:24,879
Speaker 2: you to do the show.

1105
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 1: Maybe and I would have because I was just like

1106
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 1: I loved in the earlier years. Yeah, but even then

1107
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:31,439
Speaker 1: I really liked you. You asked me to do the show,

1108
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: and I was just like, mane, it seems not like

1109
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 1: here's how the thought process. You were like, you want

1110
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:37,759
Speaker 1: to do this show? Was like, okay, that was little

1111
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:39,880
Speaker 1: it because you just seem like a nice person and

1112
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,399
Speaker 1: there was no like feeling of like, I don't know,

1113
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 1: it was just for me. It was just Mandy seems

1114
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: really nice. You know, we have this budding friendship. I

1115
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,800
Speaker 1: don't really know what podcasting is, but girl, I guess, okay,

1116
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:54,319
Speaker 1: so you could have but you know what I mean.

1117
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 1: But and I could see that now, like looking back

1118
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:58,879
Speaker 1: that like, yeah, you probably were like that, but I didn't.

1119
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 1: I didn't know that. I would have said, Okay, well

1120
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 1: here's what I can do, but I wouldn't have felt

1121
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 1: any kind of way about it, because honestly, I was

1122
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 1: just saying yes because of you, you know, because I

1123
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 1: just was like, this seems like a cool thing to

1124
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 1: do with someone who I like, and she seems really nice,

1125
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:14,399
Speaker 1: you know, like.

1126
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 2: I'm grateful for my own growth, and I mean because

1127
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 2: I feel like that now I don't have those that

1128
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 2: many issues and I feel like in Doctor Joy in

1129
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 2: your book, you even talk about like getting to the

1130
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:26,919
Speaker 2: point where you can ask for help and you don't

1131
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 2: feel like they will just break off the relationship or

1132
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 2: the friendship, you know, because I tip and I have

1133
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:36,880
Speaker 2: a much more like I feel like equal partnership in

1134
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,680
Speaker 2: this past, like you know, several years now.

1135
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: Because I try to be more conscious, because I was like, wait,

1136
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:43,799
Speaker 1: is man him for awhile? Because I wouldn't know, you

1137
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:45,799
Speaker 1: know what I mean, because I'm not always.

1138
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 2: Good at picking, and how would you have because I

1139
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:47,959
Speaker 2: was hiding it.

1140
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 1: You know, and so like, but I knew it was

1141
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,319
Speaker 1: really after the baby, and I was like, no, I

1142
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,439
Speaker 1: know she's overul because I could hear it your voice.

1143
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 1: But then I knew you better, and I remember you

1144
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: were like I just because we had never in any

1145
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,440
Speaker 1: breaks and I was like, I feel like havin a

1146
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 1: baby's good time to take a break. You were like no,

1147
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 1: I could still there was like no, like the girls

1148
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 1: will understand, like we can take a break. And I

1149
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 1: was editor use some of our money that we've we

1150
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 1: never exactly, so I try now even now, like am

1151
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 1: I like what are ways I can show up, you know,

1152
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:24,880
Speaker 1: in a way so that way you don't I know

1153
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 1: you're going to be gone for maternity leave and I

1154
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 1: don't want you to worry. Girl, I got it, you

1155
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 1: know me. And yeah, but I mean it took a

1156
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 1: while for us to, like because I didn't know Mandy

1157
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 1: well enough to know, you know, like pick up on

1158
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 1: these nuances, you know. And so now I can tell

1159
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 1: when she's like feeling overwhelmed or overworked or whatever, you know.

1160
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 1: Plus two, we didn't really necessarily have like friend chats

1161
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 1: outside of brand ambition, which we do. Now we'll just

1162
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 1: talk just for talking sake, you know, so I get

1163
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 1: to understand a wider scope of what's happening. So I

1164
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 1: can be like, well, let me come see you. I

1165
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 1: haven't even seen you, you know, like you know. And

1166
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 1: so yeah, I just say all that to say that

1167
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 1: that was just growth. And I'm glad you gave me

1168
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:07,279
Speaker 1: the space and the grace to, you know, to grow

1169
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:09,759
Speaker 1: because I don't always necessarily pick up, not from not

1170
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 1: wanting to not do better, just from not knowing, you know.

1171
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1172
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 1: So I love you, Mandra, you know that.

1173
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:18,839
Speaker 4: Oh I love you too, tough and Mandy, I hope

1174
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 4: that you can hear that. And again for your new card,

1175
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:23,399
Speaker 4: So Tiffany had a new cord to write on you

1176
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 4: have a new cord now to really I hope that

1177
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:28,279
Speaker 4: you can hold on to hearing her say like I

1178
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 4: did this just because of you, right, Like you didn't

1179
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 4: have to earn her wanting to do this podcast with you.

1180
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:36,239
Speaker 4: And so in what other places in your life can

1181
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 4: you hold on to that, Like I don't have to

1182
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 4: earn this love or respect or friendship from this person.

1183
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 4: They want to be in my life just because of

1184
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 4: who I am.

1185
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and yes, absolutely, I've gotten a lot better at

1186
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:51,759
Speaker 2: that through therapy, through just growth, and through letting go

1187
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 2: of the relationships where you know, as long as I

1188
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 2: wasn't trying so hard, they weren't going to really survive

1189
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 2: without me, like with the Scotch takes and the you know,

1190
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 2: the hot glue, hot glue together, you know, yeah, one

1191
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 2: hundred percent.

1192
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 1: Sometimes we don't we just I mean, if anything losing

1193
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 1: Darrell taught me was like I was very sympathetic, but

1194
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:16,400
Speaker 1: I realized that my empathy has just been through the

1195
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:20,400
Speaker 1: roof because I just it's like I just don't know

1196
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 1: what people are navigating, you know, like I just don't know.

1197
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:27,360
Speaker 1: I mean, some it could have the worst thing. You

1198
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 1: could have lost your dog yesterday. You know, you could

1199
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:32,800
Speaker 1: be an abusive relationship. I'm just so much more conscious

1200
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:36,279
Speaker 1: about I don't know what this person is navigating. It

1201
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:38,640
Speaker 1: might be the worst time of their life and they're

1202
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 1: putting on this false smile for whatever. So like that

1203
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 1: helps a lot when it comes to like, you know,

1204
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 1: let me try to come from a place of space

1205
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,360
Speaker 1: and grace. And you know, because typically if someone is

1206
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 1: showing up in a way that's like doesn't seem healthy.

1207
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:55,879
Speaker 1: I mean, people who are in a healthy position don't

1208
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:58,400
Speaker 1: behave misbehaving this way. So I try to keep that

1209
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 1: in mind. They're like, girl, I'm sure I'm is not

1210
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:02,760
Speaker 1: at my best, Like, you know, they're talking real crazy

1211
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 1: right now, But let me get in that space and

1212
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:07,759
Speaker 1: grace because I don't know what people are navigating, you know,

1213
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 1: Like it's hard. I always ask doctor Green, like, girl,

1214
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 1: is everybody going through it? Does anybody have it?

1215
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 4: Like I always ask her.

1216
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 1: Like does anybody have a healthy childhood? And she's like

1217
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 1: some people do, and then you know their young adulthood

1218
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:23,319
Speaker 1: is a little jet up or the adult you know,

1219
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 1: Like she's like everybody to be human is to is

1220
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:29,319
Speaker 1: to go through it. Yes, you know, And so like,

1221
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:32,120
Speaker 1: I just remind myself that even some of the people

1222
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:34,799
Speaker 1: that we think are seem so terrible, you know, that

1223
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:36,800
Speaker 1: comes from a place, and I try to leave space

1224
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:39,719
Speaker 1: and grace for that while also not allowing people to

1225
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 1: you know, harm me. You know, bounce I used to

1226
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:45,479
Speaker 1: do too, yes, because I'm like, I'm the boundaries queen.

1227
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:48,320
Speaker 1: Now I'm like what blah blah blah blah blah. I

1228
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 1: used to never I was the yes kawen. You know, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

1229
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 1: Just like Mandy, I felt, yes meant that you would

1230
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 1: love me, you would care for me, you wouldn't go,

1231
00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 1: you would stay, you know, And that was the only

1232
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:01,799
Speaker 1: way that people would stay is if I said yes

1233
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 1: to edit everything, if I was super pleasing, No trouble, Tiffany,

1234
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:09,239
Speaker 1: It's easy, breezy over here, don't worry about me. We

1235
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 1: don't even like chicken, let alone a small piece, you know,

1236
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 1: you know, And now I'm like, I would like that

1237
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:17,800
Speaker 1: big piece of chicken.

1238
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:21,400
Speaker 3: Thanks exactly. You deserve the big piece of chicken.

1239
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:22,799
Speaker 2: That's true.

1240
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 1: Joy awesome.

1241
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:26,400
Speaker 2: Oh sorry, don't wrap up yet. No last thing I

1242
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 2: wanted to say. You said that we're not supposed to

1243
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:30,399
Speaker 2: We're supposed to go to therapy, and yes, it's our

1244
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 2: space to talk, but I can't help but wonder about therapists.

1245
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 2: I asked my therapist recently, like, how many calls do

1246
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 2: you do in a day? And because I listened to

1247
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:41,319
Speaker 2: your episode about why you may want your therapist to

1248
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:43,600
Speaker 2: like you and what that comes from, I was like,

1249
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:47,480
Speaker 2: but am I your favorite? Anyway? She said ten? She

1250
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 2: said ten sessions a day. I was like, how do

1251
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 2: you do that? She's like, it doesn't really feel like

1252
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:54,840
Speaker 2: for me, I like it, but for you, especially because

1253
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 2: I don't know how much how often you're doing one

1254
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 2: on one sessions, But how do y'all cope? And how

1255
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:02,479
Speaker 2: do you take care of yourself through doing this work

1256
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 2: and being that space for so many of us?

1257
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, so ten feels like a lot to me, But

1258
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:10,360
Speaker 4: I do think it's important to know, like all therapists

1259
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:12,920
Speaker 4: are different, right, So that may be a threshold that

1260
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:15,000
Speaker 4: she's okay with, but that would be way way too

1261
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 4: many for me. So I do significantly less clinical work

1262
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:20,200
Speaker 4: now now that I'm doing the podcast and you know,

1263
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:21,960
Speaker 4: lots of speaking, So I only have like one or

1264
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 4: two clients maybe every two weeks. So it's not the

1265
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 4: same bandwidth that I had before. But I think for

1266
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 4: a lot of therapists it is our own therapy that

1267
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 4: allows us to hold space for our clients so that

1268
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:36,360
Speaker 4: we're making sure that our stuff is not impacting you know,

1269
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 4: how we show up in client in session for.

1270
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 3: You and you know, our ability to give you good care, but.

1271
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 4: Also our own support systems paying attention to sleep and

1272
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 4: exercise and all of those things. But I've also been

1273
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 4: hearing from a lot of therapists that they are significantly

1274
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:54,080
Speaker 4: checked out of the news cycle and so you know,

1275
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 4: like not being able to kind of read all of

1276
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:58,400
Speaker 4: the headlines and pay attention to all of the things

1277
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:02,240
Speaker 4: happening in the world, because it significantly diminishes your bandwidth

1278
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 4: to be able to like show up for clients. If

1279
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 4: you're also feeling like you're struggling with everything happening.

1280
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 2: In the new your clients are reading the news, doctor

1281
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:11,280
Speaker 2: join like exactly exactly.

1282
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 1: So yeah, are there specific therapists for therapists, Well.

1283
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 4: Not necessarily specific ones, but it does feel like there

1284
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 4: are some therapists who like will just pipe up in

1285
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 4: a community like that they become the therapist for therapists, right,

1286
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 4: and so they are usually the ones who are like

1287
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 4: not really active on social media, so that there's no

1288
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:33,040
Speaker 4: like real crossing of boundaries there, you know, like they

1289
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 4: kind of tend to be off the grid in some ways,

1290
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:38,720
Speaker 4: and they just kind of develop as this specialty as

1291
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 4: this is the person.

1292
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:40,680
Speaker 3: That a lot of therapists go to.

1293
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 4: So some people kind of develop into that niche, even

1294
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:45,960
Speaker 4: though that may not be necessarily how they.

1295
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 3: Open their practice.

1296
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:50,520
Speaker 4: Okay, because I know my therapist also sees a lot

1297
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 4: of other therapists because I got her name from or

1298
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:56,080
Speaker 4: referral who is this another psychologist, So it just kind

1299
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 4: of happens naturally that people become the ones in the

1300
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:01,040
Speaker 4: community who are all the other therapists go to see you.

1301
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I like that setting up boundaries. Because one

1302
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:05,360
Speaker 1: of my friends was telling me how she knew way

1303
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 1: too much about her therapist and how I was like, well,

1304
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:10,480
Speaker 1: she was explaining some of it. I said, girl, all

1305
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:12,720
Speaker 1: I know is doctor Green first, and lest I don't

1306
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:15,640
Speaker 1: know she's married. I don't know her age. I could

1307
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:18,160
Speaker 1: gather the rain, but she's black, so she could be sixty,

1308
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:19,720
Speaker 1: she could be twenty five.

1309
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:20,720
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1310
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 1: I do know she did Atlanta that's like I you know,

1311
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 1: and I love that, you know, Like I mean, I

1312
00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 1: know she must have a little dog or something because

1313
00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 1: I hear in the background every once in a while,

1314
00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 1: but I know she has kids. So I don't know

1315
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:35,120
Speaker 1: anything about doctor. Although I met her in person one

1316
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 1: time because I was in Atlanta for something and she's like,

1317
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:38,960
Speaker 1: I'm going to be there too, and we met. I

1318
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 1: was like, oh, you're tall. That was about it. But

1319
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:46,320
Speaker 1: and I just thought like, yeah, that what is inappropriate me?

1320
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 1: We could wrap on that. Like just so so as

1321
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 1: people are looking for therapy, as they get your book,

1322
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 1: as they go to therapy for Black Girls dot Com,

1323
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:55,320
Speaker 1: you know, what are some red flags to look out

1324
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:58,080
Speaker 1: for when you know they're seeking at a therapist, so

1325
00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:00,520
Speaker 1: they know like this is actually not appropriate. Hmmm.

1326
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:03,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, So a therapist who is making their sessions all

1327
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 4: about them and not you is definitely a red flag.

1328
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:08,600
Speaker 4: And of course, you know there will be times where

1329
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 4: your therapists may be self disclose to maybe make you

1330
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:13,840
Speaker 4: feel less alone or like to help you navigate a

1331
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 4: particular session, but you should not know like what your

1332
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:18,960
Speaker 4: therapist is doing on the weekend and like everything going

1333
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:21,920
Speaker 4: on in their relationship like your session should be about you,

1334
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:24,960
Speaker 4: not about them. I would also say, like a therapist

1335
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 4: who is canceling on you too much. Now, of course,

1336
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:29,320
Speaker 4: you know, stuff happens, so that may there may be

1337
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:31,840
Speaker 4: cancelations every now and then. But if it feels hard

1338
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:34,280
Speaker 4: for you to really get into a good routine and like, okay,

1339
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:37,120
Speaker 4: there's a frame being held here for my work to

1340
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 4: be done, then that may also be a sign that

1341
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:41,720
Speaker 4: this is not a person who is a.

1342
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:42,440
Speaker 3: Good fit for you.

1343
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 4: Also, anything that is inappropriate in terms of like, you know,

1344
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 4: them flirting with you, or you know, like crossing a

1345
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:52,600
Speaker 4: line in terms of you know, inappropriate touch or like

1346
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:54,640
Speaker 4: those kinds of things, of course, would be a red

1347
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:57,440
Speaker 4: flag as well. But also and this would necessarily be

1348
01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:00,240
Speaker 4: a red flag, but just an indication that you may

1349
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 4: want somebody different is that if you just don't feel

1350
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 4: like it's a good match. Right, So, if you know,

1351
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 4: you feel like, okay, I kind of don't really like

1352
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 4: talking to them, or like I feel judged, or like

1353
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:11,920
Speaker 4: I don't really feel like they're paying attention to me,

1354
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:14,640
Speaker 4: that may be also an indication that you may need

1355
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:15,520
Speaker 4: to find someone else.

1356
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:20,600
Speaker 2: Okay, doctor Joy, I wish you could stay on forever.

1357
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:25,240
Speaker 1: So crazy chat with y'alls a calming effect.

1358
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:32,240
Speaker 2: Thanks for the session, which we would do anyway with

1359
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 2: no context for mental help. Well, everyone, please go pre

1360
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 2: order or buy Sisterhood Heels by Doctor Joy. I wish

1361
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 2: you so much success with this book. I know our

1362
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:51,440
Speaker 2: BA audience is probably the target audience for it, So

1363
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:53,000
Speaker 2: y'all better get your copy.

1364
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:55,200
Speaker 1: What gonna get it? Is there a website, doctor Joy

1365
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:55,840
Speaker 1: in particular?

1366
01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:58,640
Speaker 4: Yes, you can get it from sisterhood Heels dot com.

1367
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:01,400
Speaker 1: Look at it, doctor Joy, because you know we talk

1368
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 1: was like, I want you better have the website locked out.

1369
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:07,720
Speaker 2: I don't buy five domains after you talk to Tiffany,

1370
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:09,160
Speaker 2: were you even listening?

1371
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:11,800
Speaker 1: Know you were there, Sisterhood Heels, I come you hear

1372
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:13,360
Speaker 1: that the name of the book is the name of

1373
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:17,760
Speaker 1: the site. Go ahead and get you some and so yeah,

1374
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 1: no that honestly, we'll put it in the show notes obviously,

1375
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:22,960
Speaker 1: So if you guys just want to get to click in.

1376
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:25,800
Speaker 1: But no, I just think this has just been so helpful.

1377
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:29,160
Speaker 1: You are just delightful, and I see why you have

1378
01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:33,320
Speaker 1: just like exploded in this space because the work is necessary,

1379
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:36,000
Speaker 1: but just the way you show up authentically you know,

1380
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:38,640
Speaker 1: as a black woman, as yourself. It just speaks volumes

1381
01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:40,520
Speaker 1: about you, know who you are and how you are.

1382
01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:42,280
Speaker 1: So we really appreciate and thank you.

1383
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:44,400
Speaker 3: Thank you. I appreciate y'all.

1384
01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 2: Hey, ba fam We could not do this show without

1385
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 2: your support or the support of our team behind the scenes.

1386
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 2: The Brown Mbission podcast is produced by Imani Crosby and

1387
01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:58,400
Speaker 2: Dennis and Plinsky is our in house tech guru. I

1388
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:01,160
Speaker 2: am your co host Mandy Wooder Santos and we will

1389
01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:05,480
Speaker 2: see y'all next week. Ba famah