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Speaker 1: Everybody. We're in line for Beyonce tickets. So if y'all

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Speaker 1: could just wait until we've got them, that would be great,

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Speaker 1: much appreciated. I don't have high hopes. Hey, Now, with

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Speaker 1: that attitude, what would Beyonce say if she were in

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Speaker 1: our situation. I mean, she'd say, release your job, release

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Speaker 1: your hope for tickets to my shop? All right, fair,

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Speaker 1: But she'll know she'd say, Ticketmaster won't break your soul.

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Speaker 1: There you go. I'll be like, you're right, girl, they're

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Speaker 1: going to try. Yeah, you know right. I looked up

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Speaker 1: it's like how much are Beyonce tickets going to be

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Speaker 1: when they do go on sale? And I saw they

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Speaker 1: were like, well, you know, probably a hundred and ten

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Speaker 1: dollars or the cheapest seat will be somewhere in that

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Speaker 1: range big range, big range, one of those numbers. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: all right, we can make that work. And in one

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Speaker 1: of those numbers, I'm like that I would never pay

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Speaker 1: that for anything. I can't do that, I cannot go.

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Speaker 1: I mean, to be honest with you, I might pay

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Speaker 1: for that much. We'll talk. I might just because I

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Speaker 1: love Renaissance, sure, and I would like to see Beyonce

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Speaker 1: live one time, and well, that's where I'm at because

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Speaker 1: like I don't, I couldn't. I'm still on scrubs, you know,

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Speaker 1: Like that's where I'm at with Beyonce. Grubs is TLC. Damn,

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Speaker 1: I'm still on bills, bills, bills. I haven't kept up,

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Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. But that show, I know from

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Speaker 1: just a production standpoint, is going to be one of

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Speaker 1: the most impressive shows ever made. So yeah, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: would go. That's what would right And I did see

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Speaker 1: recently someone was like, just go to the concert, Like,

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Speaker 1: just go because money it comes and it goes. But

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Speaker 1: you have one life, yeah exactly, and who knows, you know,

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Speaker 1: you might miss your chance to see Beyonce or you

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Speaker 1: know whatever legends you want to go see seem as well,

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Speaker 1: shell out and do it. You know, you like not

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Speaker 1: likely to regret it. We have one to live, uh,

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Speaker 1: and that time slips through the hourglass like the days

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Speaker 1: of our lives, and you know, you might find yourself

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Speaker 1: in a I don't know, a general hospital at some

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Speaker 1: point and you're gonna be wondering, Uh, you know, what

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Speaker 1: are all my children doing? So you're guiding light enjoy

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Speaker 1: the Beyonce dynasty. Well, today we've got a really amazing story,

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Speaker 1: another one that felt so simple when we decided to

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Speaker 1: go into it and got so complicated in the best

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Speaker 1: of ways. So I'm really excited to tell this story today. Y'all.

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Speaker 1: They're here, they're queer, they're from the Southern Hemisphere. It's penguins. Now,

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Speaker 1: there's been a bunch of gay penguin stories in the

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Speaker 1: news in the last decade, and you would think that

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Speaker 1: these are just mostly happy little puffin pieces in the news.

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Speaker 1: But of course, for some people, these penguin stories just

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Speaker 1: don't fly. But there's actually quite a long list of

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Speaker 1: homosexual or bisexual behavior in the animal kingdom, and of

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Speaker 1: course it turns out that it's a lot to get into.

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Speaker 1: So today we're gonna talk about some famous penguin pairs

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Speaker 1: and some other same sex animal partners, and then we'll

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Speaker 1: hear about just how common this is in the animal kingdom.

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Speaker 1: Finally we'll get into why biologists and LGBT activists alike

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Speaker 1: don't really like to lean on the term gay for

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Speaker 1: penguins and other animals. But then, while we're at it,

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Speaker 1: just to top things off, there is another crazy fact

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Speaker 1: that we'll get to about the only other animals besides

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Speaker 1: humans to engage in prostitution. Well, let's make like a

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Speaker 1: penguin and do it. Let's go, Hey, their French, come listen. Well,

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Speaker 1: Elia and Diana got some stories to tell. There's no

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Speaker 1: match making, no romantic tips. It's just about ridiculous relationships,

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Speaker 1: a love it might be any type of person at all,

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Speaker 1: and abstract cons that don't a conquer e ball. But

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Speaker 1: if there's a story where the second glance ridiculous a

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Okay, So, first of all,

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Speaker 1: let's talk penguins, y'all. Penguins of course, flightless water birds.

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Speaker 1: All but one species of penguin lives in the southern hemisphere. Uh,

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Speaker 1: there's one species that lives like on the Galapagos Islands,

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Speaker 1: just in the northern but most of them live in south,

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Speaker 1: and the further south you get, the colder the environment is,

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Speaker 1: the bigger they typically are. So you've got these little

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Speaker 1: island penguins that are real tiny. And then of course

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Speaker 1: like the Emperor penguins and the Antarctic are huge. Now, unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: I gotta tell y'all this episode starts at a bit

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Speaker 1: of a downer. We've all seen the meme floating around

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Speaker 1: that says that the Chinese word for penguin is business goose,

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Speaker 1: which is great because you can see a goose in

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Speaker 1: a suit. You got yourself a penguin, right, beautiful. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, y'all, but that is another Internet lie. Not

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Speaker 1: on the Internet. I know, I know, you can't. You

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Speaker 1: can't always trust what you see time. Look, the truth

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Speaker 1: is that it's kind of complicated because it goes into

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Speaker 1: a lot of like Chinese characters and their literal and

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Speaker 1: generic interpretations. It's complicated, but you can look up an

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Speaker 1: article on Chinese boost dot com that will tell you

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Speaker 1: that the Chinese characters for penguin actually means something closer

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Speaker 1: to tiptoeing goose, which is just as cute. Honestly, I

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Speaker 1: kind of love tiptoeing goose. Yeah, just like penguins. I mean,

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Speaker 1: penguins are scientifically adorable. It's been proven again and again.

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Speaker 1: I also want to throw out if I don't know

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Speaker 1: if anyone's seen Happy Feet, but it is one of

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Speaker 1: the greatest animated movies ever made. The Happy Feet directed

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Speaker 1: by George Miller, the guy who makes the Mad Max movies,

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Speaker 1: so it is intense. It is insane. Also, Babe to

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Speaker 1: pig in the City. I'm not going to go into

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Speaker 1: a whole George Miller thing here, but his kids movies

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Speaker 1: are great. I mean, no one doesn't like George. And

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Speaker 1: one of the best penguin facts is that penguins have

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Speaker 1: no particular fear of humans, and that's because they don't

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Speaker 1: really have any land based predators of it um. They

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Speaker 1: only have to worry about flying murder birds and swimming

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Speaker 1: murder monsters. So when they see humans just like walking

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Speaker 1: around boring style, they probably just think we're basically bigger,

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Speaker 1: weirdly featherless ugly penguins with weird long legs. Love it.

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Speaker 1: I love that a penguin would see me and be like, Yo,

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Speaker 1: you and I were the same, you and I. You're

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Speaker 1: not You're not some terror of the deep, and you're

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Speaker 1: not some horrible, screeching hearty from the skies. You must

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Speaker 1: be a penguin. God, I want to party with the penguins.

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Speaker 1: I would also party with a penguin. So anyway, they'll

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Speaker 1: usually walk up to people and get about like nine

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Speaker 1: or ten feet away before they get nervous and keep

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Speaker 1: their distance, which is also like people get about that close.

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Speaker 1: I want to. I don't know about you. There are

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Speaker 1: about seventeen different species of penguin, and they can be

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Speaker 1: as small as about a foot tall, like the little

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Speaker 1: blue penguin, up to the largest, which is the emperor penguin,

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Speaker 1: and they get to be about three foot seven. But

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Speaker 1: some prehistoric penguins could be as big and heavy as

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Speaker 1: an adult human and I just want to give one

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Speaker 1: a hug, me too. Write So for our non American

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Speaker 1: listeners out there, an emperor penguin is a little over

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Speaker 1: a meter tall, which I guess is easier than three

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Speaker 1: ft seven. Whatever metric with it, I can appreciate the

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Speaker 1: metric system. So when it comes to breeding, most penguins

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Speaker 1: breed as a colony, and most of the pairings of

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Speaker 1: penguins are monogamous, but not exclusively and not necessarily long term.

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Speaker 1: According SeaWorld dot org, a Deli penguins, for example, repair

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Speaker 1: with their previous year's mate sixty two of the time.

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Speaker 1: A chin strap penguin is repaired at the time, and

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Speaker 1: gentle penguins repaired with their previous partner each year of

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Speaker 1: the time. That's incredible. That's way better stats than I

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Speaker 1: think humans have. Honestly. Penguins usually share a mating ritual,

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Speaker 1: and this involves a lot of lay heads swinging and trumpeting.

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Speaker 1: They'll bow down, they'll look up, you know, a bird

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Speaker 1: mating ritual basically. And then all penguins lay two eggs

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Speaker 1: per nest, except for king and emperor penguins, who both

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Speaker 1: lay one. And in all penguins, the two parents share

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Speaker 1: incubation duties, or one sits on the egg while the

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Speaker 1: other goes out fishing or whatever, except for emperor penguins,

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Speaker 1: where exclusively the male does all of the incubating. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: men pulling their weight, praising a child. You know, for penguins,

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Speaker 1: we could learn a lot. I wonder if emperor penguin

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Speaker 1: ladies are like, uh so you get to sit around

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Speaker 1: all day? Oh my god, you really were really pulling

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Speaker 1: your weight. A BBC article called if you think penguins

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Speaker 1: are cute and cuddly, You're wrong says that if a

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Speaker 1: female emperor penguin loses a chick, she might attempt to

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Speaker 1: steal one from a nearby mother. That's crazy, straight up chicknapping.

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Speaker 1: But then things get violent because if other nearby female

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Speaker 1: penguins see it happening, they will gang up and fight her.

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Speaker 1: What which, you know, that's community coming together kind of

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Speaker 1: prevent child being. Some penguins have been seen stealing chicks

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Speaker 1: from other birds. One emperor penguin kidnapped an egg from

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Speaker 1: her own natural enemy, the scow up, which is a

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Speaker 1: bird that eats penguins. So when the chicks actual parents

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Speaker 1: showed up to try to you know, get their kid back,

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Speaker 1: the penguins fought them off twice. Like I would like

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Speaker 1: to keep this natural predator with me, please. This is

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Speaker 1: like a Jerry Springer story or a Mori. Actually, that

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Speaker 1: would be a pretty amazing episode of Jerry Springers and

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Speaker 1: tried to penguins and they're just like now. BBC says

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Speaker 1: that zoologists had to step in and return the chick

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Speaker 1: to its real parents to basically save everyone involved. This

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Speaker 1: was going to be a constant. Oh yeah. Plus when

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Speaker 1: that school grows up full size. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: it would think it was a penguin. Some some bird

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Speaker 1: stories make me think it would. But maybe it's instinct

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Speaker 1: would kick in and it would eat other baby penguins

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Speaker 1: in the In the Mowgli situation, like the other penguins

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Speaker 1: are like he's going to grow up and be a man.

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Speaker 1: He's going to shoot us, and you know, the wolves

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Speaker 1: were like, no, he's one of us, so he won't

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Speaker 1: because he grew up with us. It's whole nature versus nurture. Okay, alright,

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Speaker 1: Brad Bird, I know you're listening. I want you to

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Speaker 1: go call your friends at Pixar and we're gonna do this.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna get this penguins school kidnapping story again. It's

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Speaker 1: gonna beautiful. Yes, it's basically in the Jungle Book on ice,

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Speaker 1: the Ice Blow Book. Yeah. Okay, So we're learning all

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Speaker 1: this and what we're seeing is that penguins are devoted

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Speaker 1: parents and they have pretty balanced gender roles. And that

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Speaker 1: brings us to one of the first big sensationalized same

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Speaker 1: sex penguin stories to hit the news. Roy and Silo.

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Speaker 1: These are two male chinstrap penguins at the Central Park

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Speaker 1: Zoo in Manhattan. They were seen performing mating rituals together.

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Speaker 1: Every day. They would find each other and do those dances.

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Speaker 1: They would entwine their necks and you know, and fling

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Speaker 1: their heads back and let out these trumpets calls, and

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Speaker 1: frequently they would, according to the reports, have sex. Now

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Speaker 1: The Guardian, New York Times, BBC, and even National Geographic

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Speaker 1: all declined to go into any detail on that. But

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Speaker 1: also I kind of don't want to know, you know,

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Speaker 1: but is their imagination worse is the real question. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: apparently they had sex. When presented with female companionship, Roy

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Speaker 1: and Silo both kind of just gave a big shrug

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Speaker 1: and went back to each other. So they're actively choosing

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Speaker 1: their partnership over the same sex pairing. And then their

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Speaker 1: instinct started to take over, and Roy and Silo clearly

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Speaker 1: wanted to raise a chick together, so much so that

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Speaker 1: they found this like egg shaped rock and they took

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Speaker 1: it back to their nest and tried to incubate and

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Speaker 1: hatch it. Well, after that, there's book keeper Rob Graham's

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Speaker 1: a decided it was time to see how they would

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Speaker 1: do as parents, so he brought them a fertile egg

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Speaker 1: from another nest. Hopefully there was he left one behind

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Speaker 1: or something. Yes, this particular pairing was having trouble raising

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Speaker 1: their egg together. I don't I don't know if that

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Speaker 1: meant they were fighting or what the deal was, but okay,

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Speaker 1: so it was like an adoptive parent, Yes, it was.

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Speaker 1: It was a rescue, all right, so he brings them

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Speaker 1: the sag. Sure enough, Roy and Silo were great dad's.

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Speaker 1: They alternated sitting on the egg for the standard thirty

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Speaker 1: four days until their chick, Tango, was born, and they

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Speaker 1: raised Tango just like any other pair, keeping her warm,

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Speaker 1: protecting her, feeding her from their beaks until she could

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Speaker 1: eat on her own. In two thousand five, a children's

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Speaker 1: book was written by Peter Parnell and Justin Richardson called

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Speaker 1: and Tango Makes Three, all about this happy penguin family,

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Speaker 1: and it was widely seen as this very charming and

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Speaker 1: delightful book all about the validity of same sex parenting.

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Speaker 1: It won several awards, but according to the American Library Association,

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Speaker 1: it was also the most challenged book in the country

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Speaker 1: from two thousand six too, meaning that people wanted it

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Speaker 1: banned and they didn't want their kids to read it

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Speaker 1: and stuff like that, and it remained in the top

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Speaker 1: ten until nineteen. So people were really like feeling some

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Speaker 1: type of way about these two penguins. One of the

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Speaker 1: things that was funny is that funny and like the

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Speaker 1: frustrating way is that people were using it and saying

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Speaker 1: it was supporting gay marriage, and the authors and the

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Speaker 1: publishers came out and they were like, actually, there's literally

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Speaker 1: nothing in this book about gay marriage. It's specifically about

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Speaker 1: same sex parenting and how it's totally fine, and you know,

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Speaker 1: again it's just a metaphor. People were losing their minds

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Speaker 1: about it. Still do, still do. I was amazed to

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Speaker 1: see that it was still it was like number nine

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Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen. Then it finally fell off the list

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Speaker 1: because I guess people have just found enough other things

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Speaker 1: to be angry about now. Unfortunately, in two thousand five,

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Speaker 1: the same year that the book was published, Roy and

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Speaker 1: Silo broke up. I know it's a tragedy. I got

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Speaker 1: a speculation station. I just think that you know, that

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Speaker 1: kind of fame can really affect a partnership. You know

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Speaker 1: that they've got agents calling them all the time. You

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Speaker 1: know what if Roy has offered a book deal and

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Speaker 1: Silos nods, they're like paparazzi coming out, Barazzi all. There's

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Speaker 1: no privacy. You know, there's no intimacy everybody. They don't

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Speaker 1: spend enough time together. Next thing you know, they're clashing

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Speaker 1: about panting styles. The fame goes to your head, you know,

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Speaker 1: suddenly Silo is like, well, let's you know, let's keep

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Speaker 1: our heads cool. We're still just each other, and Roy's like,

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Speaker 1: I'm a fucking rock star out groupies all the time. Well,

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Speaker 1: according to queerty dot Com, Roy and Silo started having

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Speaker 1: issues and drifting apart in two thousand four after a

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Speaker 1: pair of aggressive penguins took over their nest, literally came

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Speaker 1: and pushed him out. It's like, y'all made this nest

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Speaker 1: real pretty, and now we're going to come in and

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Speaker 1: take it over. A couple of years before they have

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Speaker 1: these troubles, this female penguin named Scrappy had been transferred

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Speaker 1: to the zoo from Sea World, and I guess in

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Speaker 1: Sea World they must teach penguins to be home wreckers,

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Speaker 1: because she swooped in on Silo, and Silo and Scrappy

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Speaker 1: paired off together. New York Times reports that after that,

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Speaker 1: Roy mostly stayed by himself and would often be seen

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Speaker 1: quote alone in a corner, staring at the wall. Give

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Speaker 1: him a stuffy or something that breaks my heart. It's

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Speaker 1: not the same, he says. It will never be Silo. Now.

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Speaker 1: On the plus side, for fans of same sex penguin stories,

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Speaker 1: their daughter Tango did end up pairing off with another

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Speaker 1: female named to Newsy. Yeah, well there you go. An

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Speaker 1: article by Eric Caston's from Museum Studies at Tufts University

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Speaker 1: called What's with all the Gay Penguins mentions another penguin couple,

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Speaker 1: Harry and Pepper, who had a similar story. They had

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Speaker 1: been together for about five years when Harry cheated on

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Speaker 1: Pepper with a widow penguin named Linda end up probably

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Speaker 1: killed her. Hug specs the black widow of penguins. What

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Speaker 1: Linda was described by her own caretaker as quote conniving,

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Speaker 1: according to an article in Time, and I love the

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Speaker 1: caretakers being like that penguins manipulation. She's always plotting, and

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Speaker 1: bloggers called her a home wrecker who quote lives for

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Speaker 1: her own happiness no matter who gets hurt. M Linda

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Speaker 1: has a real personality on fire. I need to see

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Speaker 1: this this Bravo needs a show about Linda. Then in

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Speaker 1: there were two female Gentoo penguins, Rocky and Marama, who

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Speaker 1: hatched a chick together in London, and the London Aquarium

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Speaker 1: ruffled a lot of feathers when they announced that they

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Speaker 1: were not assigning a gender to this chick. Making it

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Speaker 1: the first gender neutral animal in kept tip. This sounds

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Speaker 1: kind of cooky, it might even sound trendy or click baby,

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Speaker 1: but as the aquarium set in a statement quote, gender

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Speaker 1: neutrality is a human construct, but it is completely normal

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Speaker 1: in the animal kingdom. They say that in the wild

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Speaker 1: penguin males and females look and behave almost identically. Some

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Speaker 1: studies have even questioned how much more prevalent same sex

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Speaker 1: pairings and penguins might be because it's just so hard

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Speaker 1: to determine males and females without active invasive testing. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot of animals like that very true, they say.

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Speaker 1: A lot of times biologists will study a pairing of

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Speaker 1: animals and they will determine which one is the male

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Speaker 1: and which one is the female by watching them have sex,

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Speaker 1: and depending on which one behaves a certain way, they're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that must be the female. But they really don't know,

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Speaker 1: and so they're like, this whole time, we might have

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Speaker 1: been watching two males or two females and just didn't

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Speaker 1: realize it. That happened in a penguin study in the

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Speaker 1: early two thousand's. Wow, I just remember having a bird

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Speaker 1: that we thought was a girl. So we named your Grace,

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Speaker 1: and then like years, a couple of years in found

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Speaker 1: out it was a male bird, so we just called

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Speaker 1: him Mr Grace. Very pretty lazy, but yeah, it was

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Speaker 1: just one of those things where like I guess, you know,

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Speaker 1: he was kind of guests or like the pet store guests.

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Speaker 1: I don't really know who said that that was a

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Speaker 1: female bird, right, but eventually it was like, it's not.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know how we determined that either because

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Speaker 1: I was too young. I just love being like, well,

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Speaker 1: what are we going to call it now? Mr? Grace? Okay,

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Speaker 1: I mean think about Jurassic Park. You know, how do

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Speaker 1: you know the dinosaurs are female? Somebody go out and

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Speaker 1: pull up their skirts? You know. Very true? Okay, But

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Speaker 1: on the other hand of all that assigning gender identities

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Speaker 1: and sexual orientations has been called anthropomorphizing, or assigning exclusively

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Speaker 1: human characteristics to non human things. All of this is

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Speaker 1: a lot, so I say, we just take a quick break.

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Speaker 1: When we come back, We're going to look at sexuality

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Speaker 1: in a bunch of different animals and see what the

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Speaker 1: X what you're saying about all these bye birds and

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Speaker 1: queer koalas and denisexual dolphins. We'll be right back with

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Speaker 1: that after this, Welcome back to the show, everybody. So

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Speaker 1: can animals be gay? It's a big question, and it's

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Speaker 1: also the title of a New York Times article from

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Speaker 1: by John Muallem. And the answer is very clearly yes

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Speaker 1: and no. Okay, so it's not very clear. It's actually

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Speaker 1: super muddy and company, of course. So is there same

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Speaker 1: sex sex in the animal kingdom? Now that's an easy yes,

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Speaker 1: very much so. A Dazed Digital article says same sex

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Speaker 1: behavior has been observed and up to a thousand species,

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Speaker 1: from ducks to apes, to bats to beetles, pretty much

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Speaker 1: any species, and all of them said, excuse me, can

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Speaker 1: I get some privacy here? Is this really any of

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Speaker 1: your um? But for a long time, biologists would not

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Speaker 1: study this, or they would write it off. It's like

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Speaker 1: some random, isolated event if they recorded it at all,

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Speaker 1: picturing some like early twentieth century explorer seeing two male

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Speaker 1: penguins and what what did I just? You know what

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Speaker 1: I saw? Nothing? Clearly, just in preparatory school. Anything can

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Speaker 1: happen at eton. No more. Recently, though, scientists are starting

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Speaker 1: to actually pay attention and document when it's happening. But

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Speaker 1: of course people are being you know real people about it,

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Speaker 1: and they're putting a lot of extra weight on these studies.

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Speaker 1: So when biologists Lindsay Young published a short paper about

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Speaker 1: two female albatross pairings, she was quote pretty careful to

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Speaker 1: plainly and simply report what we found, just you know,

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Speaker 1: the objective factor. But by the end of the next day,

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Speaker 1: the inner net was like flooded with people using it

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Speaker 1: as propaganda. Either it was this big revelation about the

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Speaker 1: human gay experience, or it was selective pseudo science meant

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Speaker 1: to further some kind of gay agenda, the kay agenda,

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Speaker 1: we're all better dressed with conditioned hair is the gay

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Speaker 1: agenda in the room with us. Now. Now, on one hand,

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Speaker 1: of course there's an obvious positive lesson here for homosexuality

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Speaker 1: in humans. There's this constant disparagement that homosexuality is not natural,

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Speaker 1: and that now gets thrown in the garbage because now

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Speaker 1: we see that totally absent of any social structures or agenda's,

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Speaker 1: same sex activity and partnerships both definitely exist in nature.

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Speaker 1: And that is a really important finding and I think

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Speaker 1: something people can take a lot of validation from. But

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Speaker 1: now John Mualum points out that the central tenet of

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Speaker 1: biology has always been like ever since Darwin that basically

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Speaker 1: everything that happens, everything that non human animals do, goes

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Speaker 1: back in some way to propagation of the species. So

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Speaker 1: no matter what you see an animal doing, it's somehow

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Speaker 1: related to producing offspring in the long run, right, the

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Speaker 1: survival tactics, you know, what they eat, where they go,

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Speaker 1: how they form as a community, and things like that.

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Speaker 1: It's all about propagation. So why would an animal invest

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Speaker 1: in sexual behavior that isn't reproductive? I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: biologists like, well, this caused you know, this costs energy.

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Speaker 1: This uh might leave you vulnerable, It takes time, Like

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Speaker 1: what's the point? They call it an evolutionary paradox, and

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Speaker 1: just the challenge of explaining it might be the main

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Speaker 1: reason that biologists have kind of swept it under the

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Speaker 1: rug for so long. It's not necessarily that biologists were

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Speaker 1: always homophobic, although many of them have been and probably are,

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Speaker 1: But this the sort of challenge of it h might

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Speaker 1: be more of the reason that people would like, let's

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Speaker 1: just not worry about it, right, But in the last

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Speaker 1: twenty years or so, biologists are starting to theorize on

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Speaker 1: ways that same sex activity is actually beneficial to the

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Speaker 1: propagation of the species. For example, here's something you didn't

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Speaker 1: want to know. Young male dolphins will sometimes stick their

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Speaker 1: dicks in each other's blow ahead dolphins. They do funk

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Speaker 1: around the dolphins, don't they They are crazy? Um and yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is something that scientists did not look at much,

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Speaker 1: like you know, they saw it and they'd be like,

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Speaker 1: all right, no thanks, whatever y'all are doing, I'm just

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Speaker 1: gonna let that be over there and pretend that I

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00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 1: was busy writing something else, dops. But it turns out

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Speaker 1: that probably young male dolphins are being kind of like

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Speaker 1: locker room buddies and they're bonding. It's like snapping a

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Speaker 1: towel at each other or something. Because then those same

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Speaker 1: groups of males work collectively to hook up with females later.

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Speaker 1: So that explained why this behavior kind of stuck around

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Speaker 1: in evolution. It was not bad for propagation. It was

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Speaker 1: good for propagation. It helps them form a little gang

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Speaker 1: because they've all they get a wingman, they've all they've

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00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 1: all experienced each other's dick, so they're all closer. Now

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Speaker 1: there you go, and they're like, now we can all

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Speaker 1: go out and get girls together. Yeah, they get a

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Speaker 1: thin man and the finn man's like, look, I've had

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Speaker 1: his dick in my blowhole, and let me tell you something.

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Speaker 1: You'd be lucky, isn't lucky. Primatologists Amy Parish and her

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Speaker 1: team found female Japanese macoux quote engaged in intimate acts,

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Speaker 1: which in humans would be in the X rated category.

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Speaker 1: She says that might enhance their social position or a

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Speaker 1: certain dominance in a way that helps them become more

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Speaker 1: successful mates for male partners, which is very interesting that

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Speaker 1: the females are like, maybe they're just teaching each other

422
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: like this, this is how you satisfy a monkey. I

423
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 1: don't know. Yah, he got these Adie mccoq's all getting

424
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 1: together and kind of like the dolphins. They're just like

425
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 1: fooling around together. And that they said that either helps

426
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: them create this sort of bond. So now they could

427
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: be like, all right, girls night, let's go get some boys.

428
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,880
Speaker 1: Or one female is like I've mounted each and every

429
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,919
Speaker 1: one of y'all, so I get to choose first, you know.

430
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,360
Speaker 1: Either way, it's it is beneficial to their reproduction. Now.

431
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 1: In bonobo apes, which are genetically very close to humans,

432
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: nearly seventy of their sexual activity is nonreproductive. They're always

433
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,360
Speaker 1: you know, giving each other hand jobs and getting real

434
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 1: freaky with each other. Come dry hunt my leg. Evolutionary

435
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: psychology professor Robin Dunbar said to National Geographic that males

436
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: engage in same sex activity as a way to socially

437
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 1: bond to Like the dolphins we talked about, he talks

438
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 1: about Spartan soldiers having sex with each other, and he said, quote,

439
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,120
Speaker 1: they had the not unreasoned, noble belief that individuals would

440
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 1: stick by and make all efforts to rescue others if

441
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: they had a lover relationship. You know again, that's right,

442
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 1: That's sort of like, well, if we're all doing it,

443
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: then I'm going to be a lot more invested in

444
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 1: this battle because this is someone who I've been really

445
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 1: intimate with the most intimate level that I'm fighting next to.

446
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: So it's sort of a similar thing maybe for the bonobos.

447
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: But he also says it could be more of a

448
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 1: developmental phase, like kind of like when young animals wrestle

449
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: with each other and they sort of play fight to

450
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 1: build their strength. This might be young animals trying out

451
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 1: these different parts of their bodies and minds by fooling

452
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: around with their pals, and then some of them just

453
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,959
Speaker 1: end up sticking with it. I was gonna say that

454
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 1: because I feel like kids do that, you know what

455
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: I mean, Like not not even a sexual way, but

456
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,400
Speaker 1: like kids are just like, oh, look at my dick,

457
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 1: or like, oh I'm growing kitties, look at them or

458
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 1: care or something, you know what I mean. Like, you're

459
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,360
Speaker 1: just like you're were on the same level. So it's

460
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: the same level of exciting and scary and weird and

461
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 1: embarrassing and you know all those things. You can't really

462
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 1: a younger kid or an older person, you can't really

463
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 1: you wouldn't share. Does that make sense? And some snail species,

464
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: all of them are born male. It's only after pairing

465
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 1: up that one of the males will become female, which

466
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: is a process that takes a few days, and then

467
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 1: those females might go pair up with someone else. But

468
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 1: some male snails consistently choose male partners, and then others

469
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,959
Speaker 1: always went for partners that had already become females. So

470
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: these lab studies show that they have preferences. And more

471
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: recent study from twenty nineteen said that same sex behavior

472
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: goes way way back to early evolution, sexual behavior would

473
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: have evolved before the kind of traits that differentiate the sexes,

474
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 1: like size, odor, shape, color. Know, if we're just crawling

475
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: out of the use, we haven't grown titties yet. We

476
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: just trying to get rid of the tail. We started

477
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 1: having sex before we started to look different. Yeah, yeah,

478
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: we all look the same. So individual animals would have

479
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: just been having like indiscriminate sex with each other and

480
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: like eventually reproduction would happen and be like, oh cool,

481
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: that worked out. I have this rudimentary dick. I'm just

482
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: going to keep sticking it into things until reproduction happens.

483
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: Happens that way, we'll figure it out trial and error. Right. Basically,

484
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: is that not evolution at work? Biologists Joan rough Garden

485
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: told New York Times quote to think of all these

486
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: animals as multitasking with their private part It kind of

487
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: sounds like Telula Bankhead. She used to say she was

488
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: not bisexual, she was ambisextrous. As those other traits evolved

489
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 1: and animals became more distinct between male and female, they

490
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 1: would be more likely to pair off in different sex pairings,

491
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: but same sex behavior didn't really have a reason to

492
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 1: go away. So it just kept happening. Yeah, there's like

493
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: why you know, if if an animal has tendencies towards

494
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: same sex behavior, it's not hurting their reproduction. In fact,

495
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 1: in the Washington Post article Queer Animals Are Everywhere, Elliott

496
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: Shreyfer says the study shows from twenty nine that if

497
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: animals are having same sex sex, or even bonding with

498
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: the same sex partner, it does not necessarily mean that

499
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 1: they're not also reproducing. Vincent Saviolinans calls it the bisexual

500
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 1: advantage and that this fluid sexuality actually increases reproduction chances

501
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: over the history of life, largely by simply increasing the

502
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: amount of time that animals are having sex. Okay, that

503
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 1: makes sense. Yeah, if you're just screwing everybody in your colony,

504
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: you know somebody's going to get pregnant. But ultimately there

505
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: might be no evolutionary advantage to same sex sex at

506
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: all in animals, and that's something biologists might just have

507
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: to get over. Deal with it. Biology. They talk about that,

508
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: they're like, you know, Darwin's rule that kind of like

509
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier, Darwin's rule that everything must relate to procreation.

510
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 1: Biologist think of it as they're like speed of light,

511
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: Like that is the one rule that can't be broken,

512
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: and they might have to break it. That might be

513
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 1: too rigid. Isn't that interesting when you're doing science and

514
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: you have to go, what am I assuming? You know?

515
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: What is the foundational assumption? That might be the thing

516
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: that's incorrect. Paul Vacy, who studied the Japanese macaques, said, quote,

517
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: it isn't functional. The behavior has no discernible purpose adaptationally speaking.

518
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: And that leads us to the reason that we've probably

519
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: all been thinking that you've probably been screaming at us

520
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: the whole time. And so why animals are having same sex? Sex?

521
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: Sex is fun? Hey, In the last twenty years, studies

522
00:31:58,040 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: have started to teach us that a lot of animal

523
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: is really like having sex. Wow, what a surprise. So

524
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: let's just take a quick break and we'll talk about

525
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: how fun it is for everyone. Right after this welcome back,

526
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about why sex is fun. So

527
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: Matthew Grober, who's a biology professor at Georgia State University,

528
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: to old National Geographic quote, if sex wasn't fun, we

529
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: wouldn't have any kids around. I don't know how he

530
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: learned that at Georgia State University. Heyo, because I didn't

531
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: learn it while I was there. I didn't have any

532
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: sex in college. Just what I'm saying. So, he says

533
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: that same sex behavior and animals might literally be just

534
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: them enjoying themselves. I was wondering this the whole time,

535
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: because it's like, if you're really thinking that all sex

536
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: is about procreation, then why do we have oral sex?

537
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: Why do we have fingering? You know, what's the point

538
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: of it? And we're not gonna maybe I'll get to

539
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: a point where I want to have your dickens. I mean,

540
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: but like a lot of people do non penetrative stuff

541
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 1: all the time. Uh, A lot of monkeys and big

542
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 1: cats have a lot of oral sex apparently. Yeah, And

543
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: the biological explanation has always been, uh, it's because it

544
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: prolongs their sexual activity and they have better chances of

545
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: procreating and things like that. But that's kind of coming

546
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: into question now too, and saying like that, I think

547
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: they might just like it. Biologists are saying that the

548
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: urge to have any sex at all might just be

549
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: strong enough to overpower the instinct of reproduction, and so

550
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: then the partnerships that animals form in those monogamous couples

551
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: might just stem from that, And that brings us back

552
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 1: to the original question, can animals be gay and why?

553
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 1: The answer is kind of ambiguous and kind of no,

554
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: and largely that's due to connotation. Like animals aren't straight either.

555
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 1: These are very human terms with a very complex meaning

556
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: that carry a lot of weight. Those snails that we

557
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: talked about that are all born male before one becomes

558
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: female after they pair up is not really a good

559
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 1: parallel to the human transgender experience. Yeah, but it can

560
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: help show that gender and sex are fluid in nature.

561
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 1: So again, on one hand, same sex behavior in animals

562
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 1: is validating, especially as a counterpoint to some anti lgbt

563
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 1: Q rhetoric like, for example, Thomas Aquinas was a philosopher.

564
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 1: He said in the thirteenth century that homosexual behavior and

565
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: humans was wrong, specifically because it doesn't occur in nature.

566
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 1: But now we know that science has proven that Thomas

567
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 1: Aquinas can go eat his own butt. Thomas James Essex,

568
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: the director of the LGBT Project at the a c

569
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 1: l U, told New York Times that learning about same

570
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: sex behavior in animals in college in the mid eighties,

571
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 1: the mid nineteen eighties made a difference for him. He

572
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: said he remember thinking, quote, oh, hey, this is quote

573
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: unquote natural, this is normal, this is part of the

574
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: normal spectrum of life. But he also said that it's

575
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 1: totally beside the point and quote people should not be

576
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 1: discriminated against regardless of what animals do. Yes, exactly right,

577
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 1: which is like, duh, that does seem like a kind

578
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: of an obvious thing, but it's very important to say that. Uh.

579
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: Sidney Woodruff, a non binary and queer PhD candidate at

580
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 1: U C. Davis, told Washington Post that while they're studying

581
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: western pond turtles, quote, I have to keep in mind

582
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,919
Speaker 1: that if I'm researching sex and wildlife species, I'll want

583
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: it to be a certain way because of my own

584
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 1: gender and sexual identity. In our quest to find inaccuracies

585
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 1: in previous research, we have to make sure we're being

586
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: humble enough to know that we're not always going to

587
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 1: get the answer that we want, which is very important. Again,

588
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: It's like that thing where you're foundational assumption might be

589
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: getting in the way of you learning. Yeah, yeah, right,

590
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: And if you're basing you know, validating human behavior on

591
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 1: what you learned from animals. You're going to find things

592
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: that are like, oh, yes, this is great, and then

593
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: you're going to find things that are like I'm going

594
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 1: to pretend I didn't see that. You know that don't parallel.

595
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,359
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just completely different scenarios. So there's there's

596
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: value in it, but it's not, Uh, it's not really

597
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: the most supportive argument, and it shouldn't need to be.

598
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 1: We're we're really prone to seeing animals as reflections of ourselves,

599
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 1: and we're constantly anthropomorphizing them, like to an unhealthy degree. Right,

600
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: I mean, okay, so picture a little kitty cat, right, adorable,

601
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: precious cat. Can that cat solve a crime? Of course not.

602
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: You wouldn't ask it to. Is just a cute little

603
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 1: kitty cat. But now imagine that cat is wearing a

604
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 1: little Sherlock Holmes cap and has a little pipe. And

605
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 1: I would trust this cat to solve my own murder.

606
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 1: I just would. I would. Everything is resting on this cat, now,

607
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 1: great cat detective. Yes, you know, that's the kind of

608
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 1: thing where we put these images on animals that really

609
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: just aren't there. I mean, we would love to see

610
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 1: Roy and Silo get a little penguins sitter for tango

611
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:25,399
Speaker 1: and go out to Carly ray puffin concert and then

612
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 1: come home and catch up on the latest episodes of

613
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:35,320
Speaker 1: Sealhousewives of Antarctica and Grace Krill and Grace Oh my God.

614
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:42,240
Speaker 1: Send us TV shows that you think gay penguin would watch, Well,

615
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 1: we'll do it in our story on Instagram, and I

616
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 1: want to hear them all. I would love it, So

617
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 1: you know, anyway, we've got this image for what you know,

618
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 1: to quote unquote gay penguins would be like. But that's

619
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: that's not their life, right because more bluntly, animals do

620
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: not have the human gay experience, right. They don't face

621
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: discrimination in their homes and families. They don't have their

622
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: own cultures centered around you know, safety and relatability and comfort.

623
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: And animals that exhibit same sex behavior are not superior

624
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 1: to different sex having animals when it comes to art, music, fashion, dancing,

625
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 1: and hairstyles like they are in humans. Sorry gee, I

626
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 1: mean they're just better. They're just better. Also, at the

627
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 1: end of it all, nearly every animal observed having same

628
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: sex sex was also seen having different sex sex too, so,

629
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 1: as Daniel villa Real points out on queerty dot Com,

630
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:44,879
Speaker 1: most animals are probably bisexual if anything. Wow, So this

631
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: might be the best lesson to take from it. In all,

632
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 1: sex basically happens in this place where physical and emotional

633
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: experiences kind of swished back and forth over each other.

634
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 1: It's all a big, complicated amalgam. Sometimes it's all one

635
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 1: or all the other. And that seems to be true

636
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,839
Speaker 1: in both humans and animals. But as much as we're

637
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 1: constantly learning that animals are more complex than we thought

638
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 1: they were, humans are just way, way, way way more complicated,

639
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 1: and our sexual preferences and aversions and everything in between

640
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: are just as complicated. So if there's a benefit to

641
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: learning that animals experience same sex attraction or form same

642
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: sex bonds, it's probably that the way we see gender

643
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: is not foundational to sex. Sex was there first, and

644
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 1: there's no natural law that demands that sex is exclusively

645
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: between the male and female of a species anymore. Then

646
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 1: there's one that says that the sex that your body

647
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 1: displays at one point in your life has to be

648
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,879
Speaker 1: the sex that it displays for your whole life, or

649
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 1: that your gender needs to be tied to that sex display,

650
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 1: no matter what it is. There's no rule saying any

651
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,800
Speaker 1: of that right anywhere in nature, And I I think that's

652
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 1: that's really the biggest thing here. We made that ship up.

653
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:11,240
Speaker 1: Someone was like wanting to make order out of chaos

654
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 1: and control things, not even in a malicious like I'm

655
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 1: controlling people, but just like you know, that human thing

656
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: of like, ah, this doesn't make sense, and I wanted

657
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:21,800
Speaker 1: to make sense. Yeah, And it's not that like someone

658
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:23,799
Speaker 1: sat down with a rule book one day and was like,

659
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 1: hair's I'm making gender up, you know, but it is

660
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 1: something that we that developed and we exist in, so

661
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,959
Speaker 1: it matters. Um. But there's also not a rule book

662
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 1: for it, right right, which means we can throw them

663
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:39,919
Speaker 1: out and start over and make it however we want.

664
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: We're the top of the food change may do whatever

665
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: we want now. Of course, for every person who says, look,

666
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: same sex behavior is natural, there's some idiot bigot out

667
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: there who says, oh, yeah, well some animals eat their babies,

668
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:56,399
Speaker 1: so I guess it's okay for people to do that too.

669
00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 1: And this is dumb, yes, but it it's also why

670
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 1: some activists have pointed out that it's really better just

671
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 1: to avoid the animal comparisons at all when you're talking

672
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 1: about validating the human experience, right, Like James Essex said,

673
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 1: whatever animals are or aren't doing quote shouldn't be the

674
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 1: basis of moral judgment for humans. So the general consensus

675
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 1: seems to be, or at least the one we're kind

676
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: of finally reaching here, is that, yes, this kind of

677
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: behavior in the animal kingdom is validating, maybe even empowering,

678
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 1: but it's not really a direct parallel to sexuality in humans.

679
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 1: In fact, this twenty nineteen study, which included queer biologists,

680
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: said specifically, quote, we do not use terms such as

681
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: heterosexual or homosexual to prevent any conflation between human sexuality

682
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: and non human sexual behaviors. So they specifically say same

683
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 1: sex sexual behavior and different sex sexual behavior in their study,

684
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 1: which is kind of what we've tried to stick to

685
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 1: here as well. So they're like, you know, the idea

686
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 1: of what a person's sexuality is is not something you

687
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,280
Speaker 1: can relate to the animal that this animal is currently

688
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: having sex with. Yeah. Yeah, and there's no like penguin

689
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:19,320
Speaker 1: euphoria show, there's not. You're experimenting and it means something

690
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 1: this where the other way it just they just find

691
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 1: a hole and they stick that minute. Okay, So we've

692
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: talked this thing to death. So let's close out with

693
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 1: one more fun sex fact about penguins, specifically the Adeli penguin,

694
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 1: who are the true sexual deviance of the penguin world,

695
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: really are so. Researchers Fiona Hunter and Lloyd Davis studied

696
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:54,439
Speaker 1: Adeli penguins mating habits for five years. These penguins build

697
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 1: little nests out of small rocks and pebbles, but towards

698
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: the end of the nesting season, things get warm on

699
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 1: their Antarctic peninsula and there's a risk of flooding, so

700
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 1: they want more and more pebbles to build up a

701
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 1: strong nest. Well the colonies, they're all crammed together in

702
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 1: the huge gathering. It looks like a big penguin music festival,

703
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 1: like a little burning man. And on the outskirts of

704
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,320
Speaker 1: the colony there are usually a lot of single, desperate

705
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: males who never got to breathe with's just dad um.

706
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: They're just kind of chilling like an empty nest, hoping

707
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,800
Speaker 1: to meet some desperate lady penguin. It's like the club

708
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:34,760
Speaker 1: at the end of the night. It's like four am,

709
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:38,319
Speaker 1: and you're like it is left, oh no, oh no.

710
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 1: So they're hanging out out there. They're kind of looking around,

711
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 1: hoping for any stragglers at the club. I guess. So

712
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: these inner colony female penguins will go out to the

713
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 1: outskirts and let these male penguins have sex with them

714
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 1: in exchange for a rock from their nest. And it

715
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 1: is the first example of prostitute ship found in the

716
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 1: animal kingdom. Incredible. Oh you gotta wonder what promises they're

717
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: making too. She's just a gold digger. Oh no, do

718
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 1: you think that? The you know, question is do the

719
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 1: males know that this is a one time thing and

720
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 1: exchange her rock? Or at least do they make you

721
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 1: do the Did the female penguins make you believe it?

722
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 1: I don't know. Do they play games at their hearts

723
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: like Linda would? Linda would straight up can I her way?

724
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: She would get whatever she needed to. She would no, no,

725
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,280
Speaker 1: you know what she would do is she would totally

726
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 1: partner up with one of those penguins, take all of

727
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 1: his rocks, and then go find someone new and kill him.

728
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, with a little poison or something, and then

729
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 1: she's on the next one. That trifling bitch. Look, sometimes

730
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 1: these female penguins will come out and just flirt to

731
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 1: do their little mating dances, their little trumpeting bend over,

732
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 1: look up coilie blood their actions huh. And then while

733
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 1: the male is trumpeting back, they will just snatch a

734
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:16,439
Speaker 1: pebble and run up. Nope, there you go, girl, good

735
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: for you. And they almost always exclusively do this too

736
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:25,280
Speaker 1: single unpartnered male penguins, because as Dr Hunter pointed out, quote,

737
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 1: otherwise the partner female would beat the intruder up. I'm

738
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 1: telling you, these Adeli penguins are vicious and violent. There

739
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 1: was this There was this study in nineteen fift by

740
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 1: Dr George Murray Levick, and he went down to this

741
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 1: island to study the Adeli penguins, and he could not

742
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 1: publish his paper because it was so scandalous because the

743
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 1: behavior he witnessed. And some of that was like some

744
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: pretty nasty homophobia because he saw same sex pairings of

745
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 1: the Deli penguins and was like, these perverts that they're

746
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 1: base desires are taking over blah blah blah. But some

747
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: of it was pretty horrific. Like he said, quote, I

748
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: saw another act of astonishing depravity today a hen which

749
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 1: had been in some way badly injured in the hind

750
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 1: quarters was crawling painfully along her belly. I was just

751
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 1: wondering whether I ought to kill her or not when

752
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,839
Speaker 1: a cock noticed her in passing and went up to her.

753
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: After short inspection, he deliberately raped her. So pretty horrific

754
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 1: story about these Adeli penguins. Well, no wonder the ladies

755
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 1: are like, let's get my rock. Wins still get my rocks.

756
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: They saw male penguins having sex with dead penguins, like

757
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,240
Speaker 1: just he said after this whole incident. In his notebook,

758
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,479
Speaker 1: he wrote, quote, there seems to be no crime too

759
00:46:54,520 --> 00:47:02,879
Speaker 1: low for these penguins. Penguins are making up like look,

760
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: the animal kingdom is full of non consensual sex and

761
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 1: pretty horrific behavior and violence, of course, but you know,

762
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 1: you go look at these cute little penguins. I mean,

763
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: this guy thought he was just gonna go watch the

764
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 1: mating habits of the Adelhi penguin and saw true horrors. Well, honestly,

765
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 1: penguins turning of sex work is pretty great. I'd say,

766
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 1: if you've got a product and you can sell it,

767
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 1: then get what you're worth. The culture, get up there,

768
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 1: penguin hut culture. I can respect that. BBC points out

769
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 1: that other animals have been seen exchanging food for sex,

770
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:44,959
Speaker 1: but only within an existing partnership, and Dr Hunter said

771
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 1: that the most stones she saw a single female penguin

772
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 1: take in a three week mating period was sixty two,

773
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: but she says she probably didn't even see them. All.

774
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: Oh wow, this girl was working. She had her only

775
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 1: fins on, only fins. Oh my god, Like, don't forget

776
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 1: to subscribe. Incredible. Wow. I did not know any of

777
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 1: this about penguins. There's so many of these animals. This

778
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: is really fascinating. Look, sex is complicated in nature and

779
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 1: also like completely uncomplicated too. That's kind of what I

780
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 1: love about it is they're just like whatever, I like

781
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: having sex. You down, I'm down, great, let's go do it. No,

782
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: but I feel like you're right. It's so much more

783
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 1: like it's just fun. I just enjoy it. I like

784
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:31,279
Speaker 1: to put my dick in things. I'm curious about what

785
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: it does. I'm curious about what it's supposed to do

786
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 1: and what it can do and why and when and how,

787
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 1: and you know, just interesting to see that sort of

788
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:43,879
Speaker 1: exploration and curiosity and stuff like that in all these

789
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 1: different species and learning how it's benefiting them right, you know,

790
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 1: and to think like, you know, what experiences are we

791
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 1: limiting for ourselves by being so trapped in our kind

792
00:48:56,320 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 1: of like you said, sort of fabricated traditional beliefs about

793
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: sex u or even thinking about like procreation, you know,

794
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 1: propagation of the species or whatever. I remember seeing some

795
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,240
Speaker 1: conversation about that about people not, you know, choosing deliberately

796
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 1: not to have children, and you know, people are like, well,

797
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 1: why you know you're that's not the instinct is to

798
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 1: have them, and you know, your people are worried about

799
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:23,840
Speaker 1: birth rates and ship like that for some reason. And

800
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 1: I saw someone be like, you know, I think it's

801
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,840
Speaker 1: really great because now you have all these more adults

802
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 1: that are interested in the kids, like more aunts and

803
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,839
Speaker 1: uncles that don't have their own kids, and so they

804
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 1: can actually care about your kid. And it takes a community,

805
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: you know, it takes a village to raise a child.

806
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 1: So you you know, you're thinking about all of these

807
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 1: other resources and time and love and energy that can

808
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 1: be expended on kids because you're not having one of

809
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 1: your own necessarily, right. That came up specifically in one

810
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 1: of those studies about penguins where they said, you know, yeah,

811
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 1: you do kind of get the gay uncles in the

812
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 1: in the penguin world where they contribute to the raising

813
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 1: of young penguins, uh, like you said, without having their

814
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 1: own that they're focused on, because penguins do kind of

815
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:11,719
Speaker 1: they have individual parents, but there is a community there

816
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, I think that's fascinating. It's interesting to

817
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 1: think about trying to set up your family unit in

818
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 1: a different way, you know. And it's just again, it's

819
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 1: all those things we're assuming and we're growing. We grow

820
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 1: up with such cultural foundations that you're like never necessarily

821
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 1: think about or choose to challenge. And it's okay if

822
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 1: it works for you, um, the way it is, but

823
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:34,839
Speaker 1: it's not doesn't mean that you can't think about it

824
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 1: differently or look at it and go, this could be

825
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 1: different and what if it was, and how would that

826
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,359
Speaker 1: look and how might that be beneficial and stuff like that,

827
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 1: and allowing other people to do those things other ways

828
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,759
Speaker 1: to write, especially like who cares if you have completely

829
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 1: doesn't affect you at all, as in literally anyone else's

830
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 1: sexuality that you're not actively having sex with, like pretty

831
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 1: much exactly no bearing whatsoever at all, none of your business,

832
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 1: none of your business. Yeah, but but there is also

833
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,359
Speaker 1: like again it's there's just just something nice to take

834
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 1: from it, but just not lean on it too hard,

835
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 1: especially like James Essex says that he won't use this

836
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 1: in legal cases. Right, He's not going to turn to

837
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 1: animals when he's fighting for human rights in a legal

838
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 1: case and say, well, penguins do it, so what's the problem?

839
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:23,839
Speaker 1: And it has been brought up in legal cases and

840
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:28,360
Speaker 1: beneficially in the past when the law specifically said. Some

841
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 1: old laws were like homosexuals shouldn't homosexuality shouldn't exist because

842
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 1: it does not exist in nature, and they were able

843
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 1: to saying, hey, look yes it does. And they're like,

844
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 1: all right, well now we have to come up with

845
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:41,880
Speaker 1: a new argument, which they always do, but we don't

846
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:45,359
Speaker 1: like it. Yeah, exactly, So I probably shouldn't have said

847
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 1: that in the first place. My mom said I couldn't

848
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 1: do it, so no, you can't do it either. Well.

849
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:55,799
Speaker 1: I found this so fascinating and I hope you did too. Uh.

850
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:58,839
Speaker 1: There's a lot of really interesting lessons to take out

851
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 1: of this. Some of those lessons are don't take too

852
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 1: much of a lesson from it either way. But um,

853
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:08,879
Speaker 1: but I love I love learning about animals. Yeah, I

854
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 1: love uh learning about anything that validates the l g

855
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 1: B t Q I A plus experience And this is

856
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 1: a really fun story. Yeah, where the challenges, you know,

857
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 1: our assumptions Again, I really feel like that's what I'm

858
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 1: taking most from this story is like, what are you

859
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 1: not questioning that you could be questioning? And that's not

860
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 1: to say you have to dismantle everything in your life,

861
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:33,360
Speaker 1: It's just like, why not look at it just for

862
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:34,839
Speaker 1: a minute and be like, is that how it has

863
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 1: to be? I like, it is it serving me? Why?

864
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: You know? Why is it like that? You know? I

865
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 1: don't know. I think that's usually valuable. Then you're in evolution. Hey,

866
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 1: brought it back to evolution. There you go. I'm so great. Well,

867
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:51,759
Speaker 1: we would love to keep evolving this show, and the

868
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:53,120
Speaker 1: best way we could do that is to get some

869
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 1: feedback from you. Also, please send us your thoughts on

870
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:59,239
Speaker 1: all this, all these penguins and these animals that are

871
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:01,399
Speaker 1: out there having a whole lot more sex than we are,

872
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,279
Speaker 1: and give us your thoughts. You can reach us at

873
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 1: ridic Romance at gmail dot com, that's right, or we're

874
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram. I'm at dynamite boom. That's right,

875
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:12,760
Speaker 1: and I'm at oh great, it's Eli and the show

876
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 1: is at ridic Romance and find us on TikTok at

877
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 1: Ridiculous Romance as well. Thank you so much for spending

878
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:21,359
Speaker 1: time with us. We love hanging out with you all.

879
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:23,799
Speaker 1: I'm talking about all this fun stuff and we will

880
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 1: have another good one for you next time. All right,

881
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 1: see then, so long friends, it's time to go. Thanks

882
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:34,439
Speaker 1: so listening to our show. Tell your friends name's Uncle

883
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 1: Sandance to listen to a show Ridiculous roll Nance