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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds.

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Speaker 2: And Project twenty twenty five claims to be ending policy

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Speaker 2: work right. We have such a great show for you today.

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Speaker 2: Massachusetts Centator Elizabeth Warren stops by to talk how Dems

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Speaker 2: are defending citizens from predatory practices. Then we'll talk to

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Speaker 2: Princeton historian Julian Zelzer about their new book, Our Nation

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Speaker 2: at Risk Election Integrity as the National Security Issue. But

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Speaker 2: first we have the president of Bright Corners and NBC

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Speaker 2: MSNBC political analyst Cornell Belcher.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Fast Politics.

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Speaker 3: Cornell, thanks for having me. It's my pleasure.

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Speaker 1: I'm so happy to have you. I'm such a fan

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Speaker 1: of yours. First of all, this week for Vice President Harris,

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Speaker 1: I think it could not have gone better this launch.

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Speaker 3: It's weird because I was texting back and forth late

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Speaker 3: last week though weekend with two members women members of Congress,

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Speaker 3: the Democratic Caucus, and they were ecstatic and as well

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Speaker 3: as just in shock that we didn't fuck this up right.

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Speaker 1: The thing is, as a long time fan of the

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Speaker 1: Vice President, I feel like a lot of times I

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Speaker 1: write pieces about how I think she had this seismic

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Speaker 1: change about two years ago where she became an Obama

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Speaker 1: level orator. We haven't had as Democrats since Obama?

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Speaker 3: Easy? Easy, Why I'm going to get Trump? Easy?

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Speaker 1: Sorry? But you know what I mean. She became next

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Speaker 1: level about two years ago, and I've been writing about it,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like everyone has been like, you're just

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Speaker 1: a Partisana da da da, But we really saw that.

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Speaker 3: Well. I think she has gotten better, right, she met

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Speaker 3: the moment. And look, as you know, being in that

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Speaker 3: spotlight and center, that glaric spotlight at the national level

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Speaker 3: is not easy, right. It's difficult for anyone, but it's

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Speaker 3: particularly difficult for women because, as you know, you know,

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Speaker 3: they are scrutinized in a way not even men do.

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Speaker 3: But it is a glaring, heavy spotlight and they go

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Speaker 3: after everything from her hair to the way to the

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Speaker 3: way she laughs. Everything. They go after women in ways

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Speaker 3: they don't go after men, and it can break up

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Speaker 3: a lot of people, and not everyone's ready for the moment.

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Speaker 3: I think the contrast between her and Jennie Vance, who

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Speaker 3: clearly is not ready for the weight and the moment

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Speaker 3: of this spotlight by his rollout because there's a rollout

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Speaker 3: full of gas and just weird shit. Yeah, but she

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Speaker 3: has raised to the moment. But after a couple of

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Speaker 3: years of being in the spotlight and being beat up

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Speaker 3: for Look, you mentioned Barack Obama, like people think of

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Speaker 3: the Obama now or the Obama at the end of

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Speaker 3: the campaign, oie. But he had become that Barack Obama.

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Speaker 3: Tel he got his ass kicked through the primaries to Clinton. Right, hey,

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Speaker 3: you get tested by fire. But look what she has

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Speaker 3: been able to do in a short period of time

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Speaker 3: is remarkable and is extraordinary. And I will say, you know,

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Speaker 3: as a polster, something has happened that I would not

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Speaker 3: would say it was a probable and that is she

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Speaker 3: has gone from a net negative favorability to a net

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Speaker 3: positive favorability and a matter of a week and a half,

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Speaker 3: which is something that we never see. But it's extraordinary,

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Speaker 3: and it is I think some of it is. You know,

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Speaker 3: I'm instilled this line from Chuck Todd. It is you know,

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Speaker 3: the vice president in many ways is the most famous,

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Speaker 3: unknown person in the country. And so she has been

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Speaker 3: in the background as a vice president doing the work

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Speaker 3: of the vice president, supportant president. But when she got

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Speaker 3: a chance to shine and people will get to know

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Speaker 3: her more. The more they know her, the more they

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Speaker 3: like her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I think that's a really good point. It's

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Speaker 1: really true. But it's also because there was all this

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Speaker 1: pulling about how voters really didn't want this rematch and

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Speaker 1: how they felt both candidates were too old and YadA, YadA, YadA,

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Speaker 1: and part of it, I think was they were kind

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Speaker 1: of desperate for someone who was authentic. You know, she

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Speaker 1: was a sex crimes prosecutor, attorney's general, district attorney, vice president,

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Speaker 1: and second black female senator ever, right, So I mean

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Speaker 1: she has experience, but she has a certain authenticity which

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Speaker 1: I think that the other two men just didn't have.

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Speaker 3: I agree with you, but I'll even go further than that.

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Speaker 3: And when you look at who she is and you

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Speaker 3: look at where the country is right now, you know

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Speaker 3: she is what they want and that they want change.

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Speaker 1: Right. That's a good point too.

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Speaker 3: She encapsulates change, right. What could be bigger change than

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Speaker 3: voting for a woman president of color? Right, And her

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Speaker 3: background of being at the vanguard of and breaking glass

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Speaker 3: ceilings and pushing the boundaries she speaks to, She speaks

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Speaker 3: to change. I would focused groups all the time, and

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Speaker 3: voters talking about how you know they really again want

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Speaker 3: change because Washington is broken and they keep getting the

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Speaker 3: same old politicians with the same old ideals and finding

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Speaker 3: the same battles. Right, the cultural wars never seem to end.

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Speaker 3: And there's voters out there when you look at Gen

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Speaker 3: X and millennials and the Gen Z's are coming in

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Speaker 3: into the electorate, right, those old battles don't have any

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Speaker 3: meaning to them, and they they're looking for change, and

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Speaker 3: just the very visual of her is changed. Right. We

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Speaker 3: are looking at the you're looking at millennials and Gen Z.

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Speaker 3: You're looking at what the most diverse generation of Americans

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Speaker 3: in American history. Right, You're looking at swirl America, and

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Speaker 3: Mollie she is a representation of swirl America. She's walking

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Speaker 3: talking diversity, and in her they see themselves and they

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Speaker 3: see what the future of America is about, and she

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Speaker 3: gives a voice to that. So I think she connects

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Speaker 3: in a unique way that is different from ninety nine

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Speaker 3: percent of our political leaders out there at the national stage.

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Speaker 3: And I know we don't want to do it because

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Speaker 3: there's always blaspheme. Because I work for Obama but how

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Speaker 3: mark of you that she is as close and as

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Speaker 3: certainly as close an inheritor of the Obama continuum than

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Speaker 3: any other candidate on our national stage.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that there's anxiety about is that

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Speaker 1: Obama was able to still get those working class white voters.

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Speaker 1: That group is more of a Trump contingent. Now, I

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Speaker 1: wonder if the white college educated voters there's been sort

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Speaker 1: of a switch through, like a switch. I wonder if

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Speaker 1: the switch is enough to propel her, and if so,

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Speaker 1: where does she need to focus. Well, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: challenge this, Okay, good, I mean I want you to

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Speaker 1: challenge me, because you know this is what you know

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Speaker 1: about and what I don't.

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Speaker 3: So please do this idea that Obama didn't win working

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Speaker 3: class wife, Like, what are we talking about?

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Speaker 1: Okay good?

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Speaker 3: Tell me? In twelve Obama got what thirty nine percent

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Speaker 3: of the white vote right in it makes giant strides

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Speaker 3: at en roads with working class white voters. I don't

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Speaker 3: know where that comes from. What Obama was was a

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Speaker 3: candidate who expanded the electorate right, and he brought more

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Speaker 3: people into the process, and he made the electorate look

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Speaker 3: more like the changing face.

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Speaker 1: Of America, right right, right.

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Speaker 3: But if you look at white non college voters, Obama

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Speaker 3: wasn't winning white non college voters. There wasn't even close.

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Speaker 3: But what I would argue is that if you look

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Speaker 3: at what's been happening, how we didn't even win white

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Speaker 3: college voters in twenty twelve. If you look at what's

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Speaker 3: been happening over the last couple of election cycles, you've

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Speaker 3: seen and I think this is perhaps the beginning of

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Speaker 3: what could be a semi realignment, at least a crack

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Speaker 3: in the way that we haven't seen since the end

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Speaker 3: of the sixties. Because you have increasingly white college voters,

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Speaker 3: particularly white college women, breaking hard for Democrats. And in

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Speaker 3: some polling, if you look at where Democrats support is

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Speaker 3: among white college women, they're like almost like a base group.

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Speaker 3: That means they're coming to levels where they're coming to

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Speaker 3: a base room. So the Democrat's ability to run up

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Speaker 3: the score among white college voters on the back of

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Speaker 3: white college educated women means all of a sudden, the

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Speaker 3: suburb rights the suburbs around Philadelphia are more competitive. The suburbs.

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Speaker 3: It means that suburban ringing around Atlanta. It means Georgia

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Speaker 3: is now a state that could go either way. So

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Speaker 3: I think what you will see is that I think

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Speaker 3: she has the ability to grow the gender gap, particularly

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Speaker 3: among women, specifically probably among college educated women, in a

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Speaker 3: way that you didn't see under Biden and Obama. That

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Speaker 3: would be my first educated guest. I also think she

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Speaker 3: has the ability to and you saw this in their

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Speaker 3: early polling. Is you know Biden was running behind his

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty performance most among what I would call that

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Speaker 3: Obama continuing coalition, those younger diverse voters. I think she

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Speaker 3: has an ability to pull those voters back and coalesce

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Speaker 3: them around in a way that we haven't seen in

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Speaker 3: the polling data recently. And I think that's her power.

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Speaker 3: That we've been going in the wrong diression. If you

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Speaker 3: look at the exit polling data and even the Pew

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Speaker 3: or Gallop, the Pew verified data from the last couple

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Speaker 3: of elections, we have not been making any in roads

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Speaker 3: at all among white, non college voters, right, And that's

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Speaker 3: not me making a value.

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Speaker 1: Judgment, right, No, No, it's true.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we've been going in the wrong direction. But yet

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Speaker 3: at the same time, we've been having great deal of

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Speaker 3: success in elections, and we've been having a great deal

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Speaker 3: of success in elections because we're making up for that

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Speaker 3: loss in that place by gains in other places. And

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Speaker 3: I think she has an ability to gain in other

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Speaker 3: places to make up for I think the continued erosion

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Speaker 3: of white non college voters as Trump plays that tribal

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Speaker 3: politics and politics of grievance, which resonates.

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Speaker 1: Right, it does. It resonates with white voters. You know,

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Speaker 1: I read a ton about authoritarianism, and that is the

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Speaker 1: idea of a multi racial democracy, that which is the

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Speaker 1: goal of all of us, is actually very triggering to

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Speaker 1: a certain group of voters, which is insane.

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Speaker 3: We are at an important crossroad where you do have

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Speaker 3: in many ways, and I talked about this in two

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Speaker 3: thousand and eight. You have two electorates fighting for the

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Speaker 3: future of America, and one of them is older, less diverse,

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Speaker 3: and they are and again no value judgment. You know,

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Speaker 3: they are uncomfortable with the changes they see happening in

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Speaker 3: the country, and they're anxious about those changes, in these

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Speaker 3: demographic changes, and you have politicians playing that zero sum

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Speaker 3: tribal racial game with them that makes it seem like

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Speaker 3: they're losing, and so you think they're losing their country, right,

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Speaker 3: And on the other side where you now have the

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Speaker 3: majority because you have that and realizing the Obama coalition

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Speaker 3: is a group of voters who are for the most

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Speaker 3: diverse in the nation's history, who are comfortable with diverse,

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Speaker 3: and they're not anxious about it, and they will change.

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Speaker 3: These two electorates are fighting for the future of the country.

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Speaker 3: The problem for trump Ism is that that coalition isn't growing.

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Speaker 3: That coalition is growing older, and it's shrinking, and they're.

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Speaker 1: Not as centralized as they were. I mean, the thing

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Speaker 1: that seems so interesting to me is that between twenty

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Speaker 1: sixteen and twenty twenty four. In twenty sixteen, Fox News

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Speaker 1: was their met Yer, right Fox Everything was on Fox News.

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Speaker 1: You know, if Tucker Carlson talked about you in primetime,

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Speaker 1: your life was a living you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: Like and all of a sudden, now it's two million,

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Speaker 1: maybe it's three million, but it's not the way it was.

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Speaker 1: And I think this decentralization actually makes the process of

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Speaker 1: running for office totally different too.

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Speaker 3: Right, I do. But I also think I don't think

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Speaker 3: it matters as much because they are organized around one

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Speaker 3: central thing, right, and that is this idea that the

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Speaker 3: other half of America that diverse America is the enemy, right,

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Speaker 3: and they're taking the country and it's very powerful. And look,

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Speaker 3: if we want to step back from an even more.

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Speaker 3: I am anxious because I know that historically what we're

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Speaker 3: looking at is something and you talk about sort of

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Speaker 3: studying authoritarianism, and you know, I look at something historically

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Speaker 3: there is that there's an authoritarian sort of fascist fever

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Speaker 3: that is happening on the right and Mala, we know

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Speaker 3: that fever historically, and the country isn't broken until the

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Speaker 3: patient is damn near killed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm very worried about the authoritarian stuff. We've been

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Speaker 1: operating under the principle that Democrats can just keep winning elections,

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Speaker 1: but sooner or later they're going to lose, right, and

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Speaker 1: then the sister can't hold right, and we have one

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Speaker 1: party that no longer believes in American democracy, right, So

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Speaker 1: how does thatur?

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Speaker 3: But it doesn't. And that's why I think we've got

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Speaker 3: to be thinking beyond this election, and we got to

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Speaker 3: be thinking about more sort of fundamental and transformative changes

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Speaker 3: in our country to preserve our democracy because at some point, right,

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Speaker 3: at some point, every election can't be an emergency because

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Speaker 3: at some point and again you say this and say

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Speaker 3: this or history. You know, most authoritarians are fascists. Don't

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Speaker 3: come to power on the back of the majority, right,

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Speaker 3: it's not that the support has supported now they come

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Speaker 3: to power on the bats of a well organized, vocal

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Speaker 3: minority of voters. So this could happen. And so what

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Speaker 3: do we do even before that? Look in this talk

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Speaker 3: is now like does the elections get certified? I think

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Speaker 3: we have to win not only the presidential election, but

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Speaker 3: we got to win the post election because they were

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Speaker 3: absolut be people on the Republican side, the Trump Republican

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Speaker 3: side right now will try to disregard the election results

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Speaker 3: if they don't go away.

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Speaker 1: And they did that in twenty twenty. And I mean,

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Speaker 1: one of the things that I was heartened by with

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Speaker 1: these Biden Supreme Court reforms is that they ultimately are

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Speaker 1: very pro democracy, right like, each president gets to appoint

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Speaker 1: to Supreme Court justices that justices served for eighteen years.

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Speaker 1: They don't involve luck, they don't involve lifetime appointments. They

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Speaker 1: just involved real nuts and bolts kind of stuff. But

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Speaker 1: the larger problem of these norms partisan Supreme Court a

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Speaker 1: Republican party that basically says every election was stolen. I

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Speaker 1: don't know how you solve for that.

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Speaker 3: You've got to hope se on the fever brace, because

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Speaker 3: you actually do. We need help from the Republicans on

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Speaker 3: this right for them, sensible Republicans who are still Republicans,

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Speaker 3: not maga, who believe that we have to in fact

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Speaker 3: sate our democracy because if they keep undermining the rule

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Speaker 3: of law and they keep undermind the legitimacy of our government,

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Speaker 3: at some point again it breaks. So at some point,

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Speaker 3: you know, the Romneys of the world, the Bushes of

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Speaker 3: the world, the Chaineys of the world. We need a

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Speaker 3: coalition for democracy that's beyond partisanship. And we actually need

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Speaker 3: legislation now move through the Senate that stops people from

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Speaker 3: being able to not certify an election outcome.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think I don't know where you go

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Speaker 1: from there. It's just a completely unsolvable problem. Thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for joining us. I hope you will come back.

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Speaker 3: It's always my pleasure. I love being on and I

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Speaker 3: love talking politics with you. You're so smart.

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Speaker 1: Are you concerned about Project twenty twenty five and how

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Speaker 1: awful Trump's second term could be? Well, so are we,

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Speaker 1: which is why We teamed with iHeart to make a

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Speaker 1: limited series with the experts on what a disaster Project

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty five would be for America's future Right now,

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Speaker 1: the first four episodes, with the final episode coming next week,

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Speaker 1: are available by looking up Molly John Fast Project twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five on YouTube. If you are thinking you are

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Speaker 1: more of a podcast person and not a YouTuber, you

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Speaker 1: can hit play when you get to the video, put

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Speaker 1: the phone on lockscreen and it will play back. New

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Speaker 1: episodes are dropping in the next week as well. We

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Speaker 1: need to educate America on what Trump's second term would

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Speaker 1: do to this country. Please watch and help us spread

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Speaker 1: the word.

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth Warren is the senior Senator from Massachusetts.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics, Senator Elizabeth Warren.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I'm delighted to be with you.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm excited to have you. And also on a

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Speaker 1: day when the Senate may start to pass tech regulation,

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Speaker 1: my heart is going to explode.

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Speaker 4: I know, I know, I think we're starting in exactly

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Speaker 4: the right place, and that is, if we can't pass

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Speaker 4: regulations designed to protect our children, then we've just given

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Speaker 4: up the whole game to the tech bros. So this

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Speaker 4: has got to stop.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 1: It's such an interesting like I want to ask a

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Speaker 1: Democratic senator about this, who's really smart? And he was

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Speaker 1: saying that part of the problem is that there's just

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Speaker 1: so much like really successful tech lobbying that it stands

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Speaker 1: in the way of the ability to create regulation. Do

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Speaker 1: you think that's true.

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Speaker 4: I not only think it's true. I take the problem,

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Speaker 4: you know me, I think problems are structural often. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: And here's the problem we've got for me. This is

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Speaker 4: like credit card world back in the late nineties and

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Speaker 4: the early two thousands, and that was that credit card

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Speaker 4: comings Man. They were sending out these credit cards to everybody,

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Speaker 4: including lots of stories about dogs and pats that got them,

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Speaker 4: and they had all of these tricks built into them

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Speaker 4: about things like double cycle billing and just crazy stuff

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Speaker 4: that really did trick people, cheat people, got people deeper

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Speaker 4: and deeper in debt, and they couldn't make it out.

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Speaker 4: So Congress comes along and says, oh, wait, we got

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Speaker 4: to put a stop to this specific problem. And the

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Speaker 4: industry would go for Circo and they would spend a

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Speaker 4: bazillion dollars and then you know, Congress would kind of

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Speaker 4: come fighting back, and people on the outside, because I

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Speaker 4: was very much on the outside during all this time,

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Speaker 4: just doing research, would push and push and push, and then.

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Speaker 5: Finally, finally, Molly, we would roll that rock up hill

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Speaker 5: and we would ban one really horrible practice, and guess what,

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Speaker 5: in the meantime, they had figured out fifty four other ones.

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Speaker 4: And so we're kind of in that early phase now

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Speaker 4: trying to push back against the tech industry. Said well, please, sir,

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Speaker 4: could we at least just have this little slice of

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Speaker 4: regulations to help protect our children. Ultimately, what we've got

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Speaker 4: to do here, Mollie, is we have to have the

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Speaker 4: big bill. And I hope you're sitting down because I'm

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Speaker 4: gonna say something. It's gonna surprise you. I have actually

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Speaker 4: worked on that bill with Lindsey Graham's for the last

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Speaker 4: two years. We got this thing ready to go, and

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Speaker 4: it's the one that creates in many ways, it's like

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Speaker 4: the Consumer Agency. It says Congress can't fight these things

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Speaker 4: one at a time here, one at a time there.

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Speaker 4: Because we need to do things about Amazon and the

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Speaker 4: self preferencing and the way they're destroying small businesses. We

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Speaker 4: need to do things about how apps get more. We

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Speaker 4: need to do things about the anti trust implications of

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Speaker 4: what these giant platforms are doing, just on and on

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Speaker 4: and on. We need somebody on the side of the

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Speaker 4: American consumer that can develop the expertise, that has the

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Speaker 4: enforcement tools, and that can just basically keep some rules

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Speaker 4: of the road in place so that the tech industry,

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Speaker 4: just like every other industry in America, is subject to

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Speaker 4: some basic rules. So I'm happy to vote for what

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Speaker 4: we're going to do today, but our ambition has to

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Speaker 4: be bigger than that, and it has to be more structural.

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Speaker 4: We need an agency that continues to stay after these folks.

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Speaker 4: And by the way, I'll just say about the Consumer Agency,

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Speaker 4: you know, because that's what we ended up building after

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Speaker 4: the two thousand and eight crash. It has now returned

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Speaker 4: more than twenty billion dollars directly to consumers who got cheated.

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Speaker 4: And the industry is doing just fine. They innovate, they create,

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Speaker 4: they come up with new products, they make good money.

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Speaker 4: But there's no longer this idea that the best way

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Speaker 4: to make profits is to cheat people, because there's a

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Speaker 4: watchdog there to say, uh uh, that's not where you

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Speaker 4: get to go.

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Speaker 1: It's so interesting to me because what we're seeing in

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Speaker 1: this election, which is ninety nine days away, I.

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Speaker 4: Think ninety nine days a week.

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Speaker 1: Outing is that Trump is the wild West, Right, you

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Speaker 1: can pay me for regulation. It's reported that he said

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Speaker 1: to a group of oil executives that if you know,

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Speaker 1: if you raise me money, I will end up supporting

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Speaker 1: you know, I'll end up ending all your regulation. And

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Speaker 1: tech is an industry that has really not been regulated

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Speaker 1: nop SO that has created enormous opportunities for things like Facebook,

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Speaker 1: and also you know, enormous perils like if you think

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Speaker 1: of the Roe Roehindan, I think I'm mispronouncing it, but

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Speaker 1: you know they've had a lot of perils, and they've

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Speaker 1: also killed the you know, they've killed local news while

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Speaker 1: doing it. Yea, And in California there's some regulation to

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Speaker 1: protect local news. We'll see if it's to go. But

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Speaker 1: we do see them crushing industry after industry.

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Speaker 4: Right And you know, you are right to put this

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Speaker 4: in an even larger context. Tech right now is the

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Speaker 4: most extreme example. It is the only industry in America

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Speaker 4: for which if they do a bad thing, they neither

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Speaker 4: can get sued in court, nor do they have a

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Speaker 4: regulator to say you've got to stop doing that. In

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Speaker 4: other words, they get a special zoning vary it swhere.

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Speaker 4: If you're tech, you just don't have to follow a

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Speaker 4: lot of the laws. Right now now there are people

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Speaker 4: trying to bring that in. I want to give big

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Speaker 4: credit to Lena kan Over at the FTC, to Jonathan

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Speaker 4: Canter at the Department of Justice, and they're trying to

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Speaker 4: use our current anti trust tools and consumer protection tools

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Speaker 4: to try to come in. But we really need to

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Speaker 4: write better regulations. But we're in the middle of an

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Speaker 4: election cycle and Donald Trump is auctioning off America's future.

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Speaker 4: I want to go back to your point about the

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Speaker 4: oil execs. The way I read it is that he

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Speaker 4: offered them if they would put a billion dollars into

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Speaker 4: his campaign. He named his price. If they would put

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Speaker 4: a billion dollars into his campaign, they could basically put

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Speaker 4: whatever poison they wanted into the air for your children

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Speaker 4: to breathe. They could basically do pretty much whatever they want.

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Speaker 4: They've already said it Project.

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Speaker 6: Twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 4: They want to get rid of the Environmental Protection Agency,

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Speaker 4: and they want to permit the oil industry to get

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Speaker 4: you at the gas pump as much as they want,

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Speaker 4: and to let the oil industry not pay its fair

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Speaker 4: share of taxes and to shove those off for families

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Speaker 4: and individuals to pay. So it really is. I mean,

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Speaker 4: there's an active auction going on right now with Donald

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Speaker 4: Trump leading the way.

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Speaker 3: It's sickening.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it is also it's also like pretty scary.

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Speaker 1: They want to get rid of the Department of Education,

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Speaker 1: which I mean this project twenty probably five stuff like

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Speaker 1: they want to get rid of the Department of Education,

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Speaker 1: which would hurt probably more than anyone Red states because

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Speaker 1: they have lower state taxes, you get. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: just can you just talk through what that would mean

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Speaker 1: getting rid of the Department of Education, because it's so

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Speaker 1: glaring and enormous.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's it.

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Speaker 4: The Department of Education now helps the schools that are

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Speaker 4: struggling the most. That's its number one use of its

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Speaker 4: funds is to try to help struggling schools. I think

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Speaker 4: that's a good thing because I think we ought to

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Speaker 4: invest and our children. The other thing in the Department

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Speaker 4: of Education does is it administers the student Lung program.

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Speaker 4: And if you're rid of the Department of Education, I

436
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 4: actually when you read this, you're like, what do you

437
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 4: guys have in mind? Here, does that mean that if

438
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 4: you're not born into a family that can afford to

439
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,159
Speaker 4: write a check for you to get more education after

440
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 4: high school? And understand, it's technical college, it's two year college,

441
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 4: it's four year college. For some people, it's a graduate school,

442
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 4: it's any of those. If your family can't afford to

443
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 4: write a check for it, don't go. Just don't have

444
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 4: an ambition for your kids, for yourself. You know, that's

445
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 4: kind of the approach the Republicans reflect in this Project

446
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 4: twenty twenty five overall? Can I do one more from

447
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 4: twenty twenty five? Just knock my thoughts off, because it's like,

448
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 4: how you think of this whole thing? So Republicans want

449
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 4: to stand out and they say, oh, they're family friendly. Okay,

450
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,239
Speaker 4: let's talk about that a little bit. But let's talk

451
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 4: about the economics of your family. Okay, if you can

452
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 4: afford to write a check, your kid doesn't get to

453
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,719
Speaker 4: go to college. But let's do a second one. How

454
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 4: much you're going to pay every year in taxes? Donald

455
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 4: Trump has put together a tax package, and Project twenty

456
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 4: twenty five kind of fleshes this on out that if

457
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 4: you do the math, it's three and a half million

458
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 4: dollars every year for every billionaire in America, they get

459
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,719
Speaker 4: like just a gift of three and a half million

460
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 4: dollars because it cuts their taxes by that much. So

461
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 4: what about the average family of four in America? Straight

462
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 4: out of Project twenty twenty five, they say those people

463
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 4: will pay twenty six hundred dollars more every year because

464
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 4: what they think is fare is that working families, middle

465
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 4: class families should pay more so that billionaires can have

466
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 4: a tax Does that just not pir socks off?

467
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 3: No?

468
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: Because I know these people enough, so I mean yes,

469
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: as in my personal views, yes, I think it's disgusting.

470
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 1: But you know, Republicans have somehow convinced white working class

471
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 1: people that tax cuts for billionaires will somehow help them.

472
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 1: I mean, trickle down economics is like the great lie

473
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 1: of the twentieth century.

474
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 4: Great line, and the Republicans are running that same old

475
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 4: play again. And the consequence of this because they want

476
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:35,880
Speaker 4: taxt the billionaires and the mega millionaires and the billionaire corporations.

477
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 4: Because they don't want to do that, it means we

478
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 4: don't have the money to invest in our families, in ourselves.

479
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 4: So look at something like childcare. Here we are in

480
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,959
Speaker 4: America richest nation in the world. Where are we on

481
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 4: the proportion of our national income that we spend on childcare? Answer?

482
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 4: Or number thirty five out of the thirty seventh th

483
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 4: richest nations. Can we all do a chant. We're number

484
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 4: thirty five, right, that's the degree of our investment in

485
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 4: our children right now. The Republican view is we shouldn't

486
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,159
Speaker 4: even be doing that much. In fact, can we just

487
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 4: talk JD. Vance for a minute? JT. Vance says that

488
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 4: putting money into childcare is class warfare on normal people,

489
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 4: normal people because obviously normal people don't use childcare. It's breathtaking.

490
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 4: But at the end of the day, always remember follow

491
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 4: the money who profits from that billionaires don't have to

492
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 4: pay taxes in order to help support our schools, in

493
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 4: order to help support kids who are trying to make

494
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 4: it through post high school education, in order to support

495
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 4: our babies in early childhood education and childcare. So it

496
00:28:55,680 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 4: all fits together. It's all of a picture here. That

497
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 4: picture is the Republican's biting hard for those at the

498
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 4: very top and expecting hard working families just to keep

499
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 4: taking it on the chin.

500
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's totally right, and also scary. So

501
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: can you talk to us about algorithmic transparency because this

502
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: is something I'm obsessed with. We get all of this

503
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 1: information on social media, but we don't know quite why

504
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 1: we get it or how we get it.

505
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 4: Oh, you hit a nerve on this swinder, right, Yeah,

506
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 4: So I want to make you a couple of points here.

507
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 4: One of the things that's happening right now is that,

508
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 4: as you know, with whether you want to call it

509
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 4: AI or just fancy, algorithms suck up information and then

510
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 4: there's some evidence that the program then starts to discriminate.

511
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 4: That is, higher prices for people of certain race, or

512
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 4: higher prices for women then for men, or higher prices

513
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 4: depending on where you are in your age group, higher

514
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 4: prices because we think we can squeeze you harder. All

515
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 4: of those different pieces and the industries that are doing this,

516
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 4: some of these are in the financial industry, some are

517
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 4: just generally in tech. They say, oh, the computer did it.

518
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 4: We didn't do it, And the answer is no. The

519
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 4: law is that you are responsible and you're not allowed

520
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 4: to just set up the computer and let it take

521
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 4: advantage of people. But I think one of the parts

522
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 4: this is an important part of why Lindsey and I

523
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 4: when we put this bill together is to put REGs

524
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 4: in place so there is more transparency about the algorithms.

525
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 4: And if these algorithms are used to create a news

526
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 4: feed for you, to create advertising for you, then you

527
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 4: have a right to understand what went into that and

528
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 4: why you were picked for it. And I think that's

529
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 4: great to say the person who gets targeted on this

530
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 4: has a right to nope. But this is one more

531
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 4: reason why I believe you've got to have an agency

532
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 4: overall with some expertise that's really willing to dive in

533
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 4: on these algorithms and run independent verifications and tests. Otherwise

534
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 4: we just are still back to big tech companies say, oh,

535
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 4: it's very complicated, just trust us, And I'm sorry, I'm

536
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 4: gonna know on that.

537
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 1: The tech regulation stuff is really beguiling and they are

538
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 1: going to work hard to prevent it at every point.

539
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 1: What can you do to sort of push back on that?

540
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: There definitely is right now bipartisan support for tech legislation,

541
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: But sooner or later this will become like oil and gas, right,

542
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: I mean, they'll get Republicans on board.

543
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 4: I think the best answer here is sunshine, and in

544
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 4: this context, what I need is to keep hammering on

545
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 4: these issues, keep showing what is broken. That's what stiff

546
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 4: the spine of the elected officials who ultimately have to

547
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 4: stand up to these lobbyists. Our threat right now is

548
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 4: the lobbyists have simply they outnumber all of us here

549
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 4: in Washington who are elected to do the people's business,

550
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 4: and they are hammering every day for the things that

551
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 4: benefit their industry, their corporate executives, and let American families

552
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 4: pay for this. So I think it's the kind of

553
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 4: work you do, Molly, that we just got to stay

554
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 4: after it and keep talking about where the abuses are.

555
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 4: Show them that we're smart, show them we've got our

556
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 4: eyes open, show them that we've got a good vehicle

557
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 4: like this agency, the Digital Protection Agency, that we are

558
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 4: willing to put some muscle behind fighting back. At the

559
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 4: end of the day. In a democracy, I got to

560
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 4: believe that when the overwhelming majority of people are with us,

561
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 4: we can fight and we can actually win.

562
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: Thank you, Senator Elizabeth Warren.

563
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 4: Oh, thank you, it's always so good to talk to you.

564
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 2: Julian Zelizer is a historian a Princeton University and the

565
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 2: author of Our Nation at Risk Election integrity as a

566
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 2: national security issue.

567
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: Welcome Julian to Fast Politics.

568
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 6: Hey, it's great to be with you as always.

569
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: You know you're my friend, and also you're very, very

570
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: smart academic. So talk to us about what this book.

571
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: What's it called? What is it? What's it about?

572
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 6: Tell us everyth It's called Our Nation at Risk. I

573
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 6: co edited it with Karen Greenberg, and it looks at

574
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 6: just about every element of national of election security, from

575
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 6: voting rights to how the machines work, to foreign interference

576
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 6: in elections and tries to give with some of the

577
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 6: smartest minds in the country, you know, a better understanding

578
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 6: of the short term risks our elections face, some of

579
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 6: the long term problems we've had since the country started,

580
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 6: and all of them offered different kinds of reforms moving forward.

581
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 6: So we thought the time was right, given how fragile

582
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 6: our election system has become.

583
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: So I was hoping you could explain a little bit

584
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 1: about why we Republicans. I mean, I've been watching the

585
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 1: Republican whatever that is convention this week and one of

586
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: the favorite tropes of their particular peccadillos is that the

587
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 1: elections are not secure, and they're not safe and basically

588
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 1: that the election was rigged. So can you explain to

589
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,479
Speaker 1: us what the fuck is happening and if that's true

590
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 1: or not?

591
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 6: Well, I mean, it wasn't rigged. The remiss of it

592
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 6: being rigged was that there's all this voting fraud, which

593
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 6: again has been repudiated many times over. Where they are

594
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 6: right is that the election system has become more fragile

595
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 6: because of them, right, correct, They have been part of

596
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,879
Speaker 6: the process. They've exploited weaknesses in the system. I mean,

597
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,399
Speaker 6: I think many people in twenty twenty didn't realize all

598
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 6: the ways in which what should be a pro forma thing,

599
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 6: meaning people vote, the votes are tallied, and ultimately the

600
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 6: electoral College decision is ratified. That there's a million kind

601
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 6: of veto points or points of subversion that can happen

602
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 6: along the way, pressuring state legislatures to essentially overturn what

603
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 6: the delegates had done, for example, and I think all

604
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 6: of that was exposed. Republicans have used this as a

605
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 6: kind of mantra, as a campaign platform, as really a

606
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 6: defining theme, but I think what they have actually done

607
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,760
Speaker 6: is shown how important it is to try to reform

608
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 6: this system because we have perpetual problems and ways in which,

609
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,720
Speaker 6: you know, bad actors can really take advantage of a system.

610
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 1: So taking advantage of a system looks like Republicans refusing

611
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 1: to certify elections. Talk to us. This is something that

612
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 1: is on the cover of the New York Times. It's

613
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 1: a real thing that we're seeing now, which is these

614
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: these Republicans have decided, you know, they're putting people in

615
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,839
Speaker 1: there who refuse to certify elections. And they're doing it

616
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: because if a state doesn't, if parts of a state

617
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 1: don't certify, you can actually sort of put the whole

618
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 1: thing off.

619
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 3: Right.

620
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 6: No, it's exactly right. I mean, look, we've had contested

621
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:41,280
Speaker 6: elections in the past. One of the famous presidential ones

622
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 6: was in eighteen seventy six Rutherford Hayes against Samuel Tilden,

623
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 6: and eventually there was a commission to decide how it

624
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 6: should be resolved, and the resolution brings an end to reconstruction.

625
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 6: There's many congressional races which have been contested, but right now,

626
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 6: essentially they're preparing to contest elections before there's any problem,

627
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 6: and they are kind of trying to put people in

628
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 6: place within the states who will have the authority to

629
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 6: take action there's even plans right now to have lawyers

630
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 6: for the GOP monitoring election sites dropboxes, And it's kind

631
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 6: of this preemptive move which in itself raises doubts about

632
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 6: the election if they want, meaning if Trump ends up losing,

633
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:30,879
Speaker 6: But at the same time, it's setting up for kind

634
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:36,280
Speaker 6: of an ugly potential outcome where not only does he lose,

635
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,879
Speaker 6: but then he fights that loss again. And so it's

636
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 6: taking something we've had historically and politicizing and weaponizing that

637
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 6: for political advantage.

638
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 1: Can you explain to us a little bit about that

639
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 1: election that ends Reconstruction, because I think that's really relevant

640
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,359
Speaker 1: right now, especially because remember, if you think of this

641
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 1: as I've always thought of it, which is Trumpism is

642
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 1: the last gas of the far right to prevent us

643
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: from becoming a true multi racial democracy, which we have

644
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: never been. It's this sort of extremist response to Obama.

645
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,800
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you can speak to this reconstruction election,

646
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: what the history looks like there.

647
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,240
Speaker 6: Well, it's really I mean reconstruction for listeners who don't

648
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 6: know as much about it, was this huge post Civil

649
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 6: War effort by Republicans, and at this point the Republicans

650
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 6: were the Party of Lincoln and of Reconstruction, trying to

651
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 6: really offer a bold platform that would empower freed black Americans,

652
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 6: create a new federal presence to ensure that rights would

653
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:52,760
Speaker 6: be observed and implemented. There were efforts to distribute land

654
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 6: to create economic independence. So it was this really bold

655
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 6: move and Southerners are furious with it. And you have

656
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 6: this election and the Republican is Rutherford Hayes, and initially,

657
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 6: you know, he loses to Samuel Tilden, and the Republicans

658
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 6: protested in three states. The results were actually uncertain, and

659
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 6: so Congress creates this panel and has members of the House,

660
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 6: that has members of the Senate, has some Supreme Court justices,

661
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 6: and they end up giving Rutherford Hayes all of the

662
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 6: disputed electoral votes, and that gives him the victory. But

663
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 6: in exchange for that, basically the Republicans accept the end

664
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 6: of Reconstruction. It was a more gradual process how Reconstruction ended,

665
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 6: but it was crucial. And so right away you see

666
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:44,359
Speaker 6: how elections and disputing elections was right at the heart

667
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 6: of these fights over racial justice in the nineteenth century.

668
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,359
Speaker 6: And then I'll just add it was the same thing

669
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 6: in the twentieth century. Another example I often talk about

670
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,359
Speaker 6: are the Jim Crow laws in the Deep South, which

671
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:03,320
Speaker 6: were essentially mechanisms to sub or the post reconstruction rights

672
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 6: the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendment rights of Black Americans, and

673
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 6: elections became the focus of what we're threatened, what we're subverted.

674
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 6: You know, Black Americans just couldn't even register to vote.

675
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 6: There was violence against anyone who supported them. So there

676
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 6: is a long history of the connection between election rights

677
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 6: and social justice movements.

678
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels very dark right now for a lot

679
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 1: of us. We're going to veer into my own therapeutic

680
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 1: practice here. No, I have a sure I'll see them later.

681
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 1: But it feels really dark for a lot of Democrats

682
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: right now. So I want you to explain to us

683
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:42,320
Speaker 1: how our elections can be safe and how you know, again,

684
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 1: we don't know what's going to happen in November. Donald

685
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: Trump is actually wildly unpopular. Most of the country just

686
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,439
Speaker 1: wants normal democracy. But explain to us a little bit

687
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: about what that could look like and sort of the

688
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 1: net net there.

689
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 6: Well, you know, the irony of twenty twenty is, even

690
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 6: though now we remember it for January sixth and all

691
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 6: the turbulence, the election actually worked pretty well.

692
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 5: You know.

693
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 6: We brought in a lot of people to vote. We

694
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 6: made voting easier, which historically we've been very resistant to do.

695
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 6: We didn't have a national election day, but we really

696
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 6: saw states innovating with mail in voting and dropboxes and

697
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 6: really taking every effort to make sure that there were

698
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 6: no barriers to voting. And so I think there were

699
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 6: elements of twenty twenty that really worked incredibly well and

700
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 6: showed our election system can be very robust. There are

701
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,280
Speaker 6: certain things I think, Look, it's not going to happen

702
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 6: between now and November, but the most important issue is

703
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 6: restoring the Voting Rights Act of nineteen sixty five, which

704
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 6: the Supreme Court undercut with a historic case, and many

705
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 6: Red states have been moving, you know, since the mid

706
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 6: to twenty tens to undermined voting rights. And so I

707
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 6: think if we're thinking of how do you take a

708
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 6: system that can work pretty well, that often works very well,

709
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 6: and make it better, I would start with that. And

710
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 6: that's one of the arguments we have in our book.

711
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 6: A full and robust Voting Rights Act restored strength and

712
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,360
Speaker 6: so that every American understands not only do they have

713
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 6: the right to vote, but the federal government will protect

714
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 6: it if anyone threatens it. The second thing, and the

715
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 6: most immediate front, is protecting poll workers. You know, there

716
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 6: has been an uptick of threats in the last few

717
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 6: years against poll workers.

718
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 1: Right, that's a really important point.

719
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 3: That should be number one.

720
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 6: And look after the attempted assassination, where violence is on

721
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 6: everyone's mind. So let's do things to stop the threat

722
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,280
Speaker 6: of violence. And so you should be able to go vote.

723
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 6: Someone should be able to you know, take your information,

724
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 6: and they shouldn't be scared about doing that.

725
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I mean that is a really important point,

726
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,280
Speaker 1: and I want to do two seconds on poll workers

727
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: because you cannot have these elections without these people who

728
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,760
Speaker 1: are normal people in your community, who do this really

729
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 1: out of the goodness of their heart. It's not a

730
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: high paying job, it's not a glamorous job, and occasionally

731
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 1: Rudy Giuliani ruins your life.

732
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 6: I think many pole workers are scared of actual violence,

733
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 6: but they're also scared of the Jiuliani's, meaning they're scared.

734
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 6: In this day and age, someone will grab their phone

735
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 6: and take a quick video of something that looks suspicious

736
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 6: but actually is not, and then broadcast it to the

737
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 6: world on some social media platform X or other. And

738
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 6: we saw in twenty twenty some of those people, as

739
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 6: you said, are just they're just doing a good thing.

740
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 6: All of a sudden, they are subjecting themselves to real

741
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 6: threats and their families. And I think that's a really

742
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 6: dangerous situation. It's become hard for a lot of localities

743
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 6: to find enough people at this time, and it's a

744
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 6: way through threat to subvert the processes. Again, it's like

745
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 6: going back to things we seen in the past where

746
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,359
Speaker 6: the threat against the electoral system becomes a way to

747
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 6: intimidate people either away from voting or in this case,

748
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:12,720
Speaker 6: even working the ballot box and making sure people can vote.

749
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's just talk for a minute about some

750
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: of these lawyers being there. It feels like intimidation. What

751
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,240
Speaker 1: the Republicans want to do. I want to talk about

752
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 1: something that I noticed. This is like in twenty eighteen,

753
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 1: I knew a guy who ran for the House. This

754
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: is like a personal anecdote Hank for Texas. He ran

755
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,800
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty. It's the podcast before this. A bunch

756
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: of times he's some really great running for Texas's first

757
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 1: district against Louis Gommert. And one of the things he

758
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 1: told me, and again, this is the first district. It's

759
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 1: an R plus twenty ten or something. You know, it's

760
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 1: the world's most republican district. It's not obviously the world's

761
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 1: most but it's very red. He wasn't going to win,

762
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 1: but he told me there was a fair amount. And

763
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 1: again this is just his so it's anecdotal, so you know,

764
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 1: they're not two sources here. You can't run it in

765
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 1: a newspaper. But he told me that he saw a

766
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 1: lot of voter intimidation in his district. And you know,

767
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 1: guys on horses, et cetera, et cetera. Now very redistrict,

768
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 1: so obviously the stakes are different. But can you talk

769
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 1: to us about voter intimidation?

770
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 6: Sure, I mean, look, historically, voter intimidation has been part

771
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 6: of our politics. I've been deep into studying the South,

772
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 6: the Deep South recently for a book about civil rights,

773
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 6: and intimidation was prevalent in that day and age. In

774
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 6: the nineteen.

775
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 3: Sixties or nineteen fifties.

776
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 6: For example, if a black Mississippian went to the courthouse

777
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,399
Speaker 6: to try to register to vote. Intimidation would encounter them

778
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 6: at every step of the way, from the police who

779
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 6: would stare them down when they walked into the courthouse,

780
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 6: to the registrar who would ask him essentially, why are

781
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 6: you even here? The threats you would face for just

782
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,280
Speaker 6: trying to do that, And I think right now, there's

783
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 6: all kinds of ways in which this threat is being

784
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:13,399
Speaker 6: wielded in a different context for different purposes. But from

785
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 6: having the former president of the United States constantly question

786
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 6: the legitimacy of the election, down to having lawyers stand

787
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,320
Speaker 6: around at a drop box in a state like Florida

788
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 6: when you go to vote. Is a way in which

789
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 6: certain look in certain middle upper middle class communities, they

790
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 6: won't care. But if you're in a different area where

791
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 6: encounters with authorities can be very unpleasant and dangerous, this

792
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 6: is going to dissuade some people from dropping their ballot

793
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:46,280
Speaker 6: off or from going to elections. That will create inconveniences.

794
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 6: We've seen that in the two thousand election in areas

795
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 6: in Miami, for example, there were huge lines, and this

796
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 6: I think will accelerate those inconveniences in places that don't

797
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 6: have enough staff and adequate equipment. So look, you combine

798
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 6: voting rights limitations with intimidating poll workers. It's a way

799
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 6: to damp in the vote in ky areas very easily.

800
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 1: Right. So one of the things that I was hoping

801
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 1: you could talk a little bit about is smart people

802
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 1: compare this time in American life to the nineteen sixties.

803
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:21,759
Speaker 1: Are they right? And if so, what period of the

804
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:23,760
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties and make it make sense.

805
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:26,879
Speaker 6: Look, I mean, if you're saying the nineteen sixties were

806
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 6: incredibly turbulent and also very violent. We had many assassinations.

807
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 3: John F.

808
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 6: Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, and Moore,

809
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:39,360
Speaker 6: good comparison, meaning we are in a moment that is

810
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:43,759
Speaker 6: that fractious and violent in some ways. It's also a

811
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,439
Speaker 6: moment where we were deeply divided in the sixties over

812
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 6: many core social issues such as race, as well as

813
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 6: foreign policy such as Vietnam. And today you see some

814
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 6: of those divisions over issues like Ukraine, the Middle East,

815
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 6: and certainly social issues from sexuality even to race relations.

816
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,839
Speaker 6: So those comparisons are fair. And look in nineteen sixty eight,

817
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 6: not only was the Democratic Convention in Chicago as it

818
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,760
Speaker 6: will be now, but you had an incumbent then Lyndon Johnson.

819
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 6: Today Joe Biden, who was in deep trouble within their

820
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 6: own party in sixty eight, Lyndon Johnson decides not to

821
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,800
Speaker 6: run again, and we'll see, but that is one of

822
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 6: the possibilities we are seeing with Joe Biden. So those

823
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 6: are some of the comparisons. Look, two basic difference is one,

824
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:35,320
Speaker 6: we're much more polarized today, meaning just on the electoral map,

825
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 6: fewer parts of the electorate move around sixty eight, you

826
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 6: still had landslide elections and big swings in the electorate.

827
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:45,240
Speaker 6: So more changed in sixty eight than it does today.

828
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 6: And secondly, the media environment is just much more different,

829
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 6: much less controlled. There's fewer guard rails, fewer filters, and

830
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:57,719
Speaker 6: so I think information conspiracy theory, arguments about elections can

831
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 6: just flow much more easily and quick than they could

832
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 6: in sixty eight.

833
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: That's really interesting. You are working on this new book

834
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 1: about civil rights in the South and about the killing

835
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 1: of three civil rights workers. Talk to me about that

836
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:15,240
Speaker 1: story and how it relates to right now.

837
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, often and often unsettling to

838
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:24,720
Speaker 6: hear all these attacks that take place on teaching about

839
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:28,399
Speaker 6: civil rights history and race relations history in a clear

840
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,320
Speaker 6: eight way. I'm writing a book about something called Freedom

841
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 6: Summer in nineteen sixty four, which was a huge mobilization

842
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 6: where local black activist civil rights organizations, then college students

843
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 6: from the north all converged on Mississippi in an effort

844
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:48,359
Speaker 6: to register voters and challenge the Democratic Party, which at

845
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 6: that time was the party of Southern Democrats who were

846
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 6: at odds with the civil rights agenda of Northern Democrats.

847
00:49:56,200 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 6: And it's a dramatic story. It's also gruesome. Involves murder

848
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,319
Speaker 6: not only of three civil rights workers who kind of

849
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 6: make the news, but violence against many others, and it's

850
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 6: a reminder. Basically, I think the story of just how

851
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 6: deeply rooted not only racial division is in this country,

852
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 6: but racial violence, kind of institutionalized racial inequality has all

853
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 6: been part of relatively recent history, and it took movement

854
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 6: efforts and real struggle to start to bring down those

855
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 6: kinds of systems, and we're not that far away from

856
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 6: it in twenty twenty four, and so I think the

857
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 6: story is important, and it's also a reminder when we

858
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 6: see voting rights being restricted in Red states today, it's

859
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 6: not some just technical issue. It's reversing hard fought struggles

860
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 6: from that nineteen sixties period. People literally gave their lives

861
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:53,839
Speaker 6: just to be able to go and vote, and so

862
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 6: that voting rights principle is really sacred. It's not just

863
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 6: a democratic principle, it's one that people gave everything for.

864
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 6: And so when we see the restrictions being put back

865
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,840
Speaker 6: into place today and you can see some of the

866
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 6: absolute fury of kind of older generations who remember what

867
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 6: it was like not to have that right, I think

868
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 6: the history is an important reminder of why this is

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Speaker 6: so dangerous and how badly we can veer in this

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Speaker 6: country when we're not careful and not watching.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Julian, really appreciate you.

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Speaker 6: Thanks for having me great to talk.

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Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

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Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to hear the best minds

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Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you

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Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend

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Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.