WEBVTT - From the Vault: Horror Vacui, Part 2 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:08.559 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:11.319 is Robert Lamb. We have one more Vault episode to 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:13.400 air for you here to get us through the holidays, 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:15.280 and then we're going to have some new episodes for 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:18.119 you after that. This is our second episode on Horror 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:21.360 of Vacuue. I So, without further ado, let's jump right in. 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:28.480 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:37.000 Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:38.120 name is Robert. 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:41.080 Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:45.360 two of our series on horror vakue, or the fear 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:48.960 of the void, the fear of emptiness, also sometimes paraphrased 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:53.680 as the statement that nature abhors a vacuum. This is 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:56.200 a topic that has many different faces we're going to 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:59.760 touch on in this series. It of course has manifestations 0:00:59.800 --> 0:01:03.560 in the world of physics and the physical sciences and 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:07.600 figures into the history of how we conceptualize space and 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:12.400 the vacuum, but it also has manifestations in the world 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:15.200 of psychology and in the world of art. In the 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:17.280 last episode we focus mainly on art, and we're going 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:20.000 to pick up with talking about art today. 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:23.319 Yeah, and Joe, I don't know if this was the 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:25.360 case with you, but I also found this to be 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:28.640 This is a really fun topic to research, but also 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:31.720 at times a slightly challenging one, doing part to just 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:36.360 how frequently the term horror vocali is invoked in papers, 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:38.160 sometimes at the drop of a hat. 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:41.840 Yes, this happens with us. Sometimes with like, you are 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:47.039 searching for writings about a concept, but instead what you 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:49.880 will find is a lot of writings that use that 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:53.240 concept as a metaphor for what they want to talk about. 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:56.240 Right, right, So it seems to be the case that 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:59.320 if you want to find something that has just via 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:02.920 the vocation of the term at least a tangential connection 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:08.040 to horror vacoe, then you can find it. For instance, 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:12.000 if you want a paper then invokes horror vacoe and 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:15.080 Spanish horror icon Paul Nashy, Well you can do it. 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:17.359 I found three of them with just to kill a 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:20.639 quick search. Yeah, and you know these are vapor where 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:24.680 it's not it's not the core thing they're going after, 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:27.880 but at some point or another they're going to use 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:31.880 this term to describe a particular artist or that artist's work, 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:35.120 or perhaps even you know, counterexamples to what a particular 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:38.600 artist was doing. So it seems kind of unavoidable, especially 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:43.040 given just how you know, how common this aspect seems 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:46.960 to be to human perception and creation, the idea that 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:50.079 you know you have minimalism, you have maximalism, and you 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:52.000 know the various spaces between. 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:55.120 Yes, this is all true, And I at least encountered 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:59.120 another difficulty with reading about horror vacae, which is that 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:04.800 I've noticed the term is used very differently, sometimes with 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:09.360 the sort of pejorative connotation and sometimes without. And for 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:12.600 an example of this, I was watching a lecture about 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:16.840 horror vakue in the history of map making by the 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:20.320 historian of cartography chet Van Duser, former guests on the show, 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:23.200 by the way, and I'll talk about his writings on 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:27.160 this subject later in this episode. But this lecture invoked 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:31.840 a definition of horror vakue by a scholar named Braxton Soderman. 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:35.840 And in this case, Soderman, I think would not use 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:40.400 the term horror vakue to apply to in general works 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:42.640 that are busy or highly decorated. I mean, there are 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:45.800 tons of things that would be very busy, highly decorated 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:49.280 you know, densely detailed works of art that would not 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:52.760 get this term. Instead, he would use it specifically to 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:57.480 refer to the motivation driving cases where you would judge 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:01.200 busy art or busy designed to not be a thoughtful 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:05.040 and effective design choice. So the quote goes, horror vacui 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:08.480 is the fear of empty space that results in the 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:14.480 overmarking of visual space, excessive decoration that threatens to overwhelm 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:17.960 what is being decorated, the stuffing of gaps and sezura 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:22.799 with further representation. So it's not just anything that's busy 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:25.159 or crowded, but it's things that are busy or crowded 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:28.000 in a kind of compulsive, uncontrolled way. 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:33.320 Okay, okay, So what Suderman is saying here then would 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:36.279 be that something like I don't know the works of 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:38.560 Irving Norman or one of these other artists we discussed 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:41.479 in Part one, who are trying to make some comment 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:44.480 or create art that in some way invokes a sense 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:49.359 of chaos or disorder. It wouldn't necessarily apply to what 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:52.599 they're doing, because it is like a definite choice, but 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:55.679 it might apply to the outsider art or folk card 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:57.480 of say Howard Finster. 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:00.440 No, I don't think he would necessarily apply the term 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:02.400 to them. I mean, I don't know what he personally 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:04.000 would apply it to. I think he's just saying that 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:07.159 whoever is using this term, however you're using it, it 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:10.400 would be applying to things that you think are excessive 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:12.760 or overmarked, whatever that means to you. 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:16.599 Okay, okay, Yeah, So he's making a distinction then, between 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:22.960 and of course, bowing to individual interpretation, that one view 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:27.000 of an artist might be that they are thoughtfully invoking, 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:30.640 say a sense of chaos or disorder by filling you know, 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:34.479 all the margins with the images of such disorder, while 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:36.440 on the other hand, there might be another artist out 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:40.039 there where it is more of a compulsion. It is 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:43.080 more of a situation where they have perhaps a lot 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:45.920 to say, too much to say, and are trying to 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:46.800 like fit it all in. 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:49.960 Yeah. Possibly, Or of course, it wouldn't just have to 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:53.040 be representing, you know, chaos or disorder. Could also be 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:56.760 representing richness or anything, you know. Whatever the reason is 0:05:56.760 --> 0:06:01.599 for the infilling of detail, it would be something that 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:04.239 is done on purpose or done for a reason, rather 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:07.160 than something that is done compulsively, maybe driven by a 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:12.400 kind of anxiety about leaving blank or uniform space, and 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:15.680 that latter sense, the one driven by horror vacui, is 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:18.880 in this definition, one that detracts from the effect of 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:22.680 the piece, one that quote threatens to overwhelm what is 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:26.160 being decorated. So again, I think this author would probably 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:28.160 not use the term to refer to things that are 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:32.440 busy or crowded as a result of a well considered 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:35.119 deliberate choice by the artist or designer. It would refer 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:39.640 to things where the infilling seems haphazard or unwarranted or ineffective. 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:44.480 So while I am usually quite partial to busy, detail 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:48.159 rich artwork, there are examples I can think of where 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:52.279 I can look at an artwork or design choice and say, yeah, 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:55.360 I think this just looks like compulsive behavior that seems 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:58.960 driven by a kind of discomfort with blank space. And 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:02.240 one example I would agree with characterizing this way is 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:04.400 cited in the same lecture by chet van Duser I 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:08.200 mentioned a minute ago. It's the practice of line filling 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:11.680 in medieval manuscripts, and so maybe this will help illustrate. 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:14.720 So this is this page I want to show you. 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:18.840 Rob is from a manuscript known as Walters one thirteen 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:23.840 which is a late thirteenth century Latin Psalter Assalter, meaning 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:28.080 a book that contains the biblical Book of Psalms, and 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:31.520 it's from the region of France that was then Flanders. 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:35.880 Now you know, I love my medieval manuscripts with zany margins. 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:39.760 I want donkeys playing trumpets. I want armored war rabbits 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:43.520 locked in battle, with naked men writing centipede dogs. I 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:47.080 want it all. But even with that predisposition, I think 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:50.320 I would be critical of what we see in some 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:52.680 of the pages of Walters one thirteen, such as the 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:55.600 one sided by van Duzer. And this is where there 0:07:55.600 --> 0:08:00.880 are illustrations intruding into the very lines of the tech itself. 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:04.040 So the issue is that when a line of text 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:06.560 does not stretch all the way to the margin, when 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.880 it does not fill out the column, the artists here 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:11.680 I don't know if it was the copyist or the 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:16.200 rubricator or somebody else, literally fills in the rest of 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:21.120 the line with a rectangular illustration of some kind. So 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:24.360 it might be a mousehead, or just some vines with 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:27.119 red and gold leaves, or a big old p hen. 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:31.160 I like these types of illustrations, but this does seem 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:33.360 kind of excessive to me, like it would actually make 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:37.240 the text harder to read and detract from its effect, 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:40.040 and it just kind of makes the page feel cluttered 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:42.440 and like there's no space to breathe. Kind of going 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:44.640 back to our episodes on the history of the paragraph 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:47.800 and the importance of blank space in prose text. 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:52.439 I would agree with the caveat to our eyes reading 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:53.320 across the sentries. 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:54.920 Well, yeah, I'm talking about my opinion. 0:08:55.200 --> 0:09:00.320 Yeah yeah, but yes, as a modern viewer looking of this, 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:03.960 the pea hens and the strange dog creatures are a 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:10.079 bit distracting, not that I can read the actual text anyway. 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:15.720 Now right, Well, well, to connect again with the paragraphs episode, 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:20.120 I mean here we see very little spacing between parts 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:23.040 of the text itself, Like the text is also very 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:24.280 crammed and crowded in. 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:30.160 Yeah, yeah, so, I mean maybe to the original creators 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:32.640 of this page and the original intended readers of this page, 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:35.960 like this is opening things up. They're like, hey, I'm 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:38.200 giving you some space. That's what the dog is, That's 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:40.680 what the bird with the human head and the dunce 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:45.319 cap is about. That is a good bird. It reminds 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:47.280 me a bit. And this is coming back to like, 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:53.440 you know, cinematic examples and parody of cinematic examples. But 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:59.120 there's an episode of Futurama where Zoid birds Uncle Harold Zoid, 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:03.760 an old time me cinema director who made like silent 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:08.679 holographic pictures. He's directing a new film and he's at 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:11.719 one point he says, people, people, please, just because this 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:14.319 dramatic scene doesn't mean you can't do a little comedy 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:17.600 in the background. And it's you know, it's referring to 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:20.360 I guess the you know, to modern viewers, they often 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:23.560 busy nature and the sort of frantic nature of say, 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:24.640 old silent films. 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:29.360 Oh yeah, yeah. So anyway, on this, like Walter's one thirteen, 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:34.400 a person might feel that this counts as horror vacui 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:37.280 in the critical sense, in the sense of overmarking or 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:41.720 excessive decoration that sort of threatens to overwhelm that which 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:45.040 is being decorated. But to come back to my point 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:47.440 about usage, it seems that while some authors use the 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:50.920 term exclusively in this sense, like a in some sense 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:55.160 a critical statement or a critical statement about the motivation 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:59.960 driving certain design choices, it's also sometimes used more generic, 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:02.920 without a spirit of criticism that I can detect and 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:06.319 would just be descriptive, like it would refer to any 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:09.520 ardor design without a lot of blank space, even if 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:12.959 the author making the statement believes that such a design 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:16.760 is effective or thoughtful, or well considered or beautiful. So 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:20.160 I guess this can create confusion when the term is 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:24.319 invoked about whether it's being used with a critical connotation 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:27.280 or not. Is it just, say, does horror vacae just 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:30.920 describe an artwork that is busy and filled in with 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:34.680 detail to all the edges, or is it a class 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:39.199 of motivation to create certain artworks of this type, specifically 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:41.640 artworks that are not as good as others? 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:46.280 Now, you know, discussing though, the way that sometimes the 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:51.480 term is used to depict, you know, primitive impulse or 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:53.959 to describe a quality of more ancient forms of art 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:57.719 versus modern forms. I do think it's helpful to look 0:11:57.720 --> 0:11:59.679 at other examples from other parts of the world in 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:02.120 other times times. And I was trying to think of, like, well, 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:03.840 what's a good one that's you know, a little bit 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:06.319 different from from what we've we've looked at in the 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:11.320 first episode, And I kept coming back to Tibetan art, 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:17.040 particularly in Tibetan Buddhist art that I imagine when I even 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:21.120 mention this, like certain images are coming to mind, and 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:23.640 these images that come to mind maybe indeed be like 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:29.400 very full, very complex pieces that indeed take up an 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:30.480 entire given space. 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:33.360 So if we're applying the term here, it would be 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:36.160 in the descriptive sense, not in the critical sense, because 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:39.600 I think you and I agree these art works are amazing. 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:43.280 Right, and I, to be honest, I didn't find any 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:46.040 sources out there that we're really invoking this term to 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:48.439 describe Tibetan art, So I'm not I'm not attempting to 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:50.600 jump to the defense of it or anything, because the 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:55.640 attack would be I think, entirely imaginary here. But it's interesting, 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.040 I think to look at work that you might see 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:00.600 as as you know, very full or even very busy, 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:02.960 and sort of described like why is it like that? 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:06.160 And what does it have to do with the original 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:10.360 purpose and context of a given work. So a little background. 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:13.040 A Tibetan style of art began to develop on the 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:17.040 Tibetan Plateau during the tenth century, this following a formative 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:19.840 era during which Buddhism took on a form in Tibet 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:21.960 most in tune with the religious needs of the people, 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:26.880 their pre existing shamanistic traditions, and much more. And this 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:29.520 is discussed in great detail and an excellent book that 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:31.679 I have on the shelf here by Robert E. Fischer 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:34.640 titled Art of Tibet. Now, I'm not going to get 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:37.800 super into the different forms of Tibetan Buddhism or even 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:41.280 the full variety of images, but suffice to say that 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:44.080 while not all examples of Tibetan Buddhist art invoke a 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:47.960 feeling of maximalism, some of the most famous examples of sculpture, 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:51.520 and especially monastery wall paintings, do tend to kind of 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:54.720 overpower you with a sense of cosmic abundance. 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:57.360 Yes, and many of them seem to me like they 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:00.560 are not only overflowing with detail, but over flowing with 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:04.560 sort of different levels of focus, Like there's a lot 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:08.080 of different layers of detail that you know, things that 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:10.800 are kind of like zoomed out versus zoomed in, if 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:11.720 that makes any sense. 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:14.400 Yeah, Yeah, you do feel like there's a sense of 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:18.000 zooming in and zooming out. MANI pieces will have like 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:21.640 a kind of central focus and it can almost feel 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:24.600 like some sort of of a map. It can almost 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:26.960 feel like some sort of and this is where we 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:29.000 get into some of the actual purpose here, some sort 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:33.680 of educational document that indeed there is information that is 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:37.200 being relayed here. And yeah, this is one of two 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:40.760 important factors to keep in mind regarding why these images 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:44.880 are so again cosmically abundant. First of all, as Fisher 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:50.080 points out, esoteric Buddhism, like Vadriyana Buddhism was Indy, is 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:54.320 a complex system. One comparison that I've seen elsewhere is 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:56.960 that you might think of these forms of Buddhism as 0:14:57.000 --> 0:15:01.280 a kind of Buddhist super science, a kind of advancediritual technology. 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:07.120 Fisher points out that it essentially a means of accelerating 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:11.600 the path toward enlightenment, condensing the work of eons into 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:15.240 a single mortal lifespan. And at the same time, there 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:17.920 was still like a sense of urgency to the practice, 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:21.840 Fisher stresses, because ultimately you're dealing with the trajectory of 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:24.880 the human soul. So there was a great deal to 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:28.240 be taught, a great deal to guide one through, a 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:31.040 great deal as a learner to absorb. And it was 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:34.920 more than a written text or even a robust monastic 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:39.120 tradition could do on its own. Fisher writes the following quote, 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:42.800 The need to harness the myriad powers and to organize 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:45.840 the parts of this vast system into a manageable whole 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:49.560 required a large and complex visual system of support and 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:52.840 gave rise to the ritual instruments and images that have 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:56.680 given the Vadriana its distinctive flavor, as well as the 0:15:56.800 --> 0:16:01.360 huge array of deities representing the tremendous range of powers 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:02.160 and practices. 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:06.560 Okay, so in some sense, the detail rich nature of 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:11.000 a lot of this artwork could be related to the 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:14.680 sort of the vastness and complexity of the belief system 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:16.640 underlying it exactly. 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:20.840 Yeah, Yeah, we're dealing with various images and objects here 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:27.680 that are not necessarily merely decoration but also ritualistic and instructional. 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:32.040 So the image may be full or abundant or even 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:35.680 you know, considered busy because there is a great deal 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:39.560 of information to relate and support via the image, and 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:40.960 I guess you know you can you can look at 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:43.480 various examples and other systems, Like anytime there's a lot 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:45.560 of information to put in an image via a map 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:49.040 or you know, to sort of bring it into this 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:53.080 realm of the unreal. I'm reminded of the maps, the 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:55.080 many wonderful maps that have been created over the years 0:16:55.120 --> 0:17:00.160 for Dante's Inferno and the other books in the Divine Comedy, 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:05.520 where there is a fantastic physical realm that has to 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:09.320 be created there, but it's also just loaded with information 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:11.639 and loaded with all sorts of stuff, and it can 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:14.040 be very helpful when you're, say, reading The Inferno, but 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:16.640 also if you try and fit everything into the map, 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:29.080 it could conceivably be overwhelmed. Now Elsewhere in the book, 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:31.600 Fisher makes a great point too about the role place 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:34.320 has in all of this as well. So we're dealing 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:37.720 with centuries of tradition here. And while I don't want 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:41.000 to devalue the vast size of the Tibetan Plateau because 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:44.240 it is enormous, or the biodiversity of the region because 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:50.000 it contains numerous ecosystems, but individual works and monasteries are 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:53.280 going to be generally tied to particular locations within it. 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:57.400 As Fisher points out, the interior of a Tibetan monastery 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:01.400 is elaborate, with full wall painting that quote transform those 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:05.600 rooms into spiritual environments which surround and even overwhelm the 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:10.160 worshiper with large, expressive displays of the many Buddhist worlds, 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:14.000 and he stresses that this is all in stark contrast 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:18.280 to the world outside the monastery, typically defined by the 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:21.880 quote often barren, wind swept Tibetan landscape. 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:25.640 That's interesting. So he's saying that in many of these places, 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:27.800 if you were to go outside the monastery, you'd be 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:30.760 greeted with an image of the world that is quite beautiful, 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:34.160 but maybe not busy with detail or busy with lots 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:37.359 of little things populating it. It would be often a 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:40.080 very I don't know what the word is, A kind 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:42.600 of smooth topography. I mean, I guess not smooth, because 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:44.840 it would be mountainous, but you know, not a lot 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:48.560 of forests and cities and so forth right. 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:51.840 Yeah, Like, I included an image here of the Debutton Plateau, 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:55.600 and it's particularly gorgeous view. And at the same time, 0:18:55.640 --> 0:19:00.520 I'm sure that one could probably find individual vistas. Don't 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:04.160 feel is open in the Tibetan plateau. But I feel 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:06.320 like this kind of I feel like this has a 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:09.520 certain logic to it, Like the idea that first of all, 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:11.600 going back to the previous comment, like, on one hand, 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:16.040 you have information encoded in the work, but also it 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:19.080 has to do with this awe inspiring transition out of 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:22.520 the mundane world and into the inner spiritual world of 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:26.040 the monastery or of a temple. So I think, on 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:29.359 one hand, it's important to realize that the contrast between 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:31.239 the empty and the full might be lost in an 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:33.760 analysis of a work, you know, if you're just viewing 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:38.000 it in isolation on a page, on a screen, or 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:41.680 even in a you know, a museum setting. And I 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:43.399 don't know, this is more of a tangent, but I 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:45.119 wonder how we might think of this in terms of 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:47.879 ancient versus modern, or even in just pre modern in 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:51.440 general versus modern creations, because if the world outside of 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:55.520 a particular experience is, by one definition or another minimalist, 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:59.800 then perhaps it makes more sense for the work itself, 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:04.320 the inner work, to present a contrast of maximalism. Likewise, 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:06.880 of the world outside the monastery is, by one definition 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:10.760 or another maximalist or busy, then perhaps we crave the quiet, 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:15.080 the simple, and the minimal within the experience of place 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:17.760 or painting or film or musical composition. 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:21.000 That's very interesting. I could see that. So if yeah, 0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:24.959 maybe you live in a busy city center, the sacred 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:27.080 space you retreat to, you would want to have a 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:30.080 lot of empty or uniform space in it to give 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:33.320 you a sense of rest maybe, Whereas if you live 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:36.040 in a more pastoral environment, you might want to retreat 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:39.800 to a sacred space that is full of just a busy, 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:41.480 rich detail and complexity. 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:44.000 Yeah. And at the same time, though, I realized that 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:47.560 it might still be entirely subjective, because I can easily imagine, say, 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:50.080 you know, an individual living in the big city and 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:54.639 they're going into a sacred space or museum space, and like, 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:57.520 what is their relationship to the world on the outside? 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:04.159 Is is it and an abundant or is it is 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:06.640 there an emptiness to it? And therefore they want something 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:11.119 more full on the inside, Like the sacred space should 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:13.359 give them an energy that they feel is lacking in 0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:16.480 the world outside. Like, like I say, I guess it 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:20.280 could go either way, depending on what an individual's view 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:21.480 of the mundane world is. 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:25.960 Yeah, that's a really interesting observation, though, I wonder about 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:26.360 that now. 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:30.640 Yeah, Like take the various male wolf locations for example, 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:35.640 those are certainly kind of maximalist experiences you don't go in. 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:39.560 I mean, you know, it's it's not just an overabundance 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:43.159 of images. There's you know, various artists, various styles and 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:48.040 so forth. It's not just wall to wall. But generally 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:50.680 I have found when I when I and the one 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:53.639 that I visited, I left feeling like I had experienced 0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:54.120 a lot. 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:56.800 That's interesting because I when I went, I found it 0:21:57.080 --> 0:21:59.439 kind of RESTful as well. I think maybe it has 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:02.440 to do with the dim lighting in there, or there 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:04.840 are plenty of lights, but they're not bright white light 0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:10.320 and the kind of soothing sonic atmospheres. I don't know. 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:13.199 Yeah, So anyway, you know, I bring all this up 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:16.320 more or less just to raise additional questions and bring 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:19.280 up additional examples. But we'd obviously love to hear from 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:21.520 folks out there who have thoughts on all of this 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:26.080 related to their experiences in museums and sacred spaces, et cetera. 0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:28.960 Now I mentioned earlier that I was going to come 0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:33.240 back to chet VanDuzer, and this relates to fear of 0:22:33.240 --> 0:22:36.560 the void in art. I came across some work by 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:39.000 previous show guests Chet van Duser on the role of 0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:43.120 horror vakue in map making. So if you didn't hear 0:22:43.160 --> 0:22:45.800 that episode from a few years back, chet VanDuzer is 0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:49.560 an American historian of cartography, and he came on the 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:52.960 show several years back to talk about why and how 0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:57.719 cartographers of the past would so frequently add sea monsters 0:22:57.760 --> 0:23:03.400 to their maps. And one possible explanation for the proliferation 0:23:03.560 --> 0:23:07.080 of sirens and sly the marine serpent kings out in 0:23:07.119 --> 0:23:10.520 the deep water is horror vacuee on the part of 0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:13.520