1 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,319 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. We have one more Vault episode to 3 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: air for you here to get us through the holidays, 4 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: and then we're going to have some new episodes for 5 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 1: you after that. This is our second episode on Horror 6 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: of Vacuue. I So, without further ado, let's jump right in. 7 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 8 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 9 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: name is Robert. 10 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 3: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part 11 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 3: two of our series on horror vakue, or the fear 12 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 3: of the void, the fear of emptiness, also sometimes paraphrased 13 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 3: as the statement that nature abhors a vacuum. This is 14 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 3: a topic that has many different faces we're going to 15 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 3: touch on in this series. It of course has manifestations 16 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 3: in the world of physics and the physical sciences and 17 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 3: figures into the history of how we conceptualize space and 18 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 3: the vacuum, but it also has manifestations in the world 19 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 3: of psychology and in the world of art. In the 20 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 3: last episode we focus mainly on art, and we're going 21 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 3: to pick up with talking about art today. 22 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, and Joe, I don't know if this was the 23 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: case with you, but I also found this to be 24 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: This is a really fun topic to research, but also 25 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: at times a slightly challenging one, doing part to just 26 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: how frequently the term horror vocali is invoked in papers, 27 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: sometimes at the drop of a hat. 28 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 3: Yes, this happens with us. Sometimes with like, you are 29 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 3: searching for writings about a concept, but instead what you 30 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 3: will find is a lot of writings that use that 31 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 3: concept as a metaphor for what they want to talk about. 32 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: Right, right, So it seems to be the case that 33 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: if you want to find something that has just via 34 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: the vocation of the term at least a tangential connection 35 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: to horror vacoe, then you can find it. For instance, 36 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: if you want a paper then invokes horror vacoe and 37 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: Spanish horror icon Paul Nashy, Well you can do it. 38 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 1: I found three of them with just to kill a 39 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: quick search. Yeah, and you know these are vapor where 40 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: it's not it's not the core thing they're going after, 41 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: but at some point or another they're going to use 42 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: this term to describe a particular artist or that artist's work, 43 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: or perhaps even you know, counterexamples to what a particular 44 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: artist was doing. So it seems kind of unavoidable, especially 45 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: given just how you know, how common this aspect seems 46 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: to be to human perception and creation, the idea that 47 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 1: you know you have minimalism, you have maximalism, and you 48 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: know the various spaces between. 49 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 3: Yes, this is all true, And I at least encountered 50 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 3: another difficulty with reading about horror vacae, which is that 51 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 3: I've noticed the term is used very differently, sometimes with 52 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 3: the sort of pejorative connotation and sometimes without. And for 53 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 3: an example of this, I was watching a lecture about 54 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 3: horror vakue in the history of map making by the 55 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 3: historian of cartography chet Van Duser, former guests on the show, 56 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 3: by the way, and I'll talk about his writings on 57 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 3: this subject later in this episode. But this lecture invoked 58 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 3: a definition of horror vakue by a scholar named Braxton Soderman. 59 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 3: And in this case, Soderman, I think would not use 60 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 3: the term horror vakue to apply to in general works 61 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 3: that are busy or highly decorated. I mean, there are 62 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 3: tons of things that would be very busy, highly decorated 63 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 3: you know, densely detailed works of art that would not 64 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 3: get this term. Instead, he would use it specifically to 65 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 3: refer to the motivation driving cases where you would judge 66 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 3: busy art or busy designed to not be a thoughtful 67 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 3: and effective design choice. So the quote goes, horror vacui 68 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 3: is the fear of empty space that results in the 69 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 3: overmarking of visual space, excessive decoration that threatens to overwhelm 70 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 3: what is being decorated, the stuffing of gaps and sezura 71 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,799 Speaker 3: with further representation. So it's not just anything that's busy 72 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 3: or crowded, but it's things that are busy or crowded 73 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 3: in a kind of compulsive, uncontrolled way. 74 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, So what Suderman is saying here then would 75 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: be that something like I don't know the works of 76 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: Irving Norman or one of these other artists we discussed 77 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 1: in Part one, who are trying to make some comment 78 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: or create art that in some way invokes a sense 79 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:49,359 Speaker 1: of chaos or disorder. It wouldn't necessarily apply to what 80 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 1: they're doing, because it is like a definite choice, but 81 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,679 Speaker 1: it might apply to the outsider art or folk card 82 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 1: of say Howard Finster. 83 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 3: No, I don't think he would necessarily apply the term 84 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 3: to them. I mean, I don't know what he personally 85 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 3: would apply it to. I think he's just saying that 86 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 3: whoever is using this term, however you're using it, it 87 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 3: would be applying to things that you think are excessive 88 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 3: or overmarked, whatever that means to you. 89 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, Yeah, So he's making a distinction then, between 90 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: and of course, bowing to individual interpretation, that one view 91 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: of an artist might be that they are thoughtfully invoking, 92 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: say a sense of chaos or disorder by filling you know, 93 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 1: all the margins with the images of such disorder, while 94 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: on the other hand, there might be another artist out 95 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:40,039 Speaker 1: there where it is more of a compulsion. It is 96 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: more of a situation where they have perhaps a lot 97 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 1: to say, too much to say, and are trying to 98 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: like fit it all in. 99 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. Possibly, Or of course, it wouldn't just have to 100 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 3: be representing, you know, chaos or disorder. Could also be 101 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 3: representing richness or anything, you know. Whatever the reason is 102 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 3: for the infilling of detail, it would be something that 103 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,239 Speaker 3: is done on purpose or done for a reason, rather 104 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 3: than something that is done compulsively, maybe driven by a 105 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 3: kind of anxiety about leaving blank or uniform space, and 106 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 3: that latter sense, the one driven by horror vacui, is 107 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 3: in this definition, one that detracts from the effect of 108 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 3: the piece, one that quote threatens to overwhelm what is 109 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 3: being decorated. So again, I think this author would probably 110 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 3: not use the term to refer to things that are 111 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 3: busy or crowded as a result of a well considered 112 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,119 Speaker 3: deliberate choice by the artist or designer. It would refer 113 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 3: to things where the infilling seems haphazard or unwarranted or ineffective. 114 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 3: So while I am usually quite partial to busy, detail 115 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 3: rich artwork, there are examples I can think of where 116 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 3: I can look at an artwork or design choice and say, yeah, 117 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 3: I think this just looks like compulsive behavior that seems 118 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 3: driven by a kind of discomfort with blank space. And 119 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 3: one example I would agree with characterizing this way is 120 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 3: cited in the same lecture by chet van Duser I 121 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 3: mentioned a minute ago. It's the practice of line filling 122 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 3: in medieval manuscripts, and so maybe this will help illustrate. 123 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 3: So this is this page I want to show you. 124 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 3: Rob is from a manuscript known as Walters one thirteen 125 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 3: which is a late thirteenth century Latin Psalter Assalter, meaning 126 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 3: a book that contains the biblical Book of Psalms, and 127 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 3: it's from the region of France that was then Flanders. 128 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 3: Now you know, I love my medieval manuscripts with zany margins. 129 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 3: I want donkeys playing trumpets. I want armored war rabbits 130 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 3: locked in battle, with naked men writing centipede dogs. I 131 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 3: want it all. But even with that predisposition, I think 132 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 3: I would be critical of what we see in some 133 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 3: of the pages of Walters one thirteen, such as the 134 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 3: one sided by van Duzer. And this is where there 135 00:07:55,600 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 3: are illustrations intruding into the very lines of the tech itself. 136 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 3: So the issue is that when a line of text 137 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 3: does not stretch all the way to the margin, when 138 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 3: it does not fill out the column, the artists here 139 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 3: I don't know if it was the copyist or the 140 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 3: rubricator or somebody else, literally fills in the rest of 141 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 3: the line with a rectangular illustration of some kind. So 142 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 3: it might be a mousehead, or just some vines with 143 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,119 Speaker 3: red and gold leaves, or a big old p hen. 144 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 3: I like these types of illustrations, but this does seem 145 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 3: kind of excessive to me, like it would actually make 146 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 3: the text harder to read and detract from its effect, 147 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 3: and it just kind of makes the page feel cluttered 148 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 3: and like there's no space to breathe. Kind of going 149 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 3: back to our episodes on the history of the paragraph 150 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 3: and the importance of blank space in prose text. 151 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,439 Speaker 1: I would agree with the caveat to our eyes reading 152 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: across the sentries. 153 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I'm talking about my opinion. 154 00:08:55,200 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but yes, as a modern viewer looking of this, 155 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: the pea hens and the strange dog creatures are a 156 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 1: bit distracting, not that I can read the actual text anyway. 157 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 3: Now right, Well, well, to connect again with the paragraphs episode, 158 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 3: I mean here we see very little spacing between parts 159 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 3: of the text itself, Like the text is also very 160 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 3: crammed and crowded in. 161 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so, I mean maybe to the original creators 162 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: of this page and the original intended readers of this page, 163 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: like this is opening things up. They're like, hey, I'm 164 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: giving you some space. That's what the dog is, That's 165 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: what the bird with the human head and the dunce 166 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:45,319 Speaker 1: cap is about. That is a good bird. It reminds 167 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: me a bit. And this is coming back to like, 168 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 1: you know, cinematic examples and parody of cinematic examples. But 169 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: there's an episode of Futurama where Zoid birds Uncle Harold Zoid, 170 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: an old time me cinema director who made like silent 171 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 1: holographic pictures. He's directing a new film and he's at 172 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,719 Speaker 1: one point he says, people, people, please, just because this 173 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:14,319 Speaker 1: dramatic scene doesn't mean you can't do a little comedy 174 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: in the background. And it's you know, it's referring to 175 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: I guess the you know, to modern viewers, they often 176 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: busy nature and the sort of frantic nature of say, 177 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: old silent films. 178 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah. So anyway, on this, like Walter's one thirteen, 179 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 3: a person might feel that this counts as horror vacui 180 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 3: in the critical sense, in the sense of overmarking or 181 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 3: excessive decoration that sort of threatens to overwhelm that which 182 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 3: is being decorated. But to come back to my point 183 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 3: about usage, it seems that while some authors use the 184 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 3: term exclusively in this sense, like a in some sense 185 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 3: a critical statement or a critical statement about the motivation 186 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 3: driving certain design choices, it's also sometimes used more generic, 187 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 3: without a spirit of criticism that I can detect and 188 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,319 Speaker 3: would just be descriptive, like it would refer to any 189 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 3: ardor design without a lot of blank space, even if 190 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 3: the author making the statement believes that such a design 191 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 3: is effective or thoughtful, or well considered or beautiful. So 192 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 3: I guess this can create confusion when the term is 193 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 3: invoked about whether it's being used with a critical connotation 194 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 3: or not. Is it just, say, does horror vacae just 195 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 3: describe an artwork that is busy and filled in with 196 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 3: detail to all the edges, or is it a class 197 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:39,199 Speaker 3: of motivation to create certain artworks of this type, specifically 198 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 3: artworks that are not as good as others? 199 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: Now, you know, discussing though, the way that sometimes the 200 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: term is used to depict, you know, primitive impulse or 201 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:53,959 Speaker 1: to describe a quality of more ancient forms of art 202 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:57,719 Speaker 1: versus modern forms. I do think it's helpful to look 203 00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 1: at other examples from other parts of the world in 204 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: other times times. And I was trying to think of, like, well, 205 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 1: what's a good one that's you know, a little bit 206 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 1: different from from what we've we've looked at in the 207 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: first episode, And I kept coming back to Tibetan art, 208 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: particularly in Tibetan Buddhist art that I imagine when I even 209 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: mention this, like certain images are coming to mind, and 210 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: these images that come to mind maybe indeed be like 211 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: very full, very complex pieces that indeed take up an 212 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: entire given space. 213 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 3: So if we're applying the term here, it would be 214 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 3: in the descriptive sense, not in the critical sense, because 215 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 3: I think you and I agree these art works are amazing. 216 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: Right, and I, to be honest, I didn't find any 217 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: sources out there that we're really invoking this term to 218 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 1: describe Tibetan art, So I'm not I'm not attempting to 219 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: jump to the defense of it or anything, because the 220 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: attack would be I think, entirely imaginary here. But it's interesting, 221 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: I think to look at work that you might see 222 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: as as you know, very full or even very busy, 223 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: and sort of described like why is it like that? 224 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: And what does it have to do with the original 225 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: purpose and context of a given work. So a little background. 226 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: A Tibetan style of art began to develop on the 227 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: Tibetan Plateau during the tenth century, this following a formative 228 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 1: era during which Buddhism took on a form in Tibet 229 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: most in tune with the religious needs of the people, 230 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: their pre existing shamanistic traditions, and much more. And this 231 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: is discussed in great detail and an excellent book that 232 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 1: I have on the shelf here by Robert E. Fischer 233 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: titled Art of Tibet. Now, I'm not going to get 234 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: super into the different forms of Tibetan Buddhism or even 235 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: the full variety of images, but suffice to say that 236 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 1: while not all examples of Tibetan Buddhist art invoke a 237 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: feeling of maximalism, some of the most famous examples of sculpture, 238 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: and especially monastery wall paintings, do tend to kind of 239 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 1: overpower you with a sense of cosmic abundance. 240 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 3: Yes, and many of them seem to me like they 241 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 3: are not only overflowing with detail, but over flowing with 242 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 3: sort of different levels of focus, Like there's a lot 243 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 3: of different layers of detail that you know, things that 244 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 3: are kind of like zoomed out versus zoomed in, if 245 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 3: that makes any sense. 246 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, you do feel like there's a sense of 247 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: zooming in and zooming out. MANI pieces will have like 248 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: a kind of central focus and it can almost feel 249 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: like some sort of of a map. It can almost 250 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: feel like some sort of and this is where we 251 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: get into some of the actual purpose here, some sort 252 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: of educational document that indeed there is information that is 253 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: being relayed here. And yeah, this is one of two 254 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: important factors to keep in mind regarding why these images 255 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: are so again cosmically abundant. First of all, as Fisher 256 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: points out, esoteric Buddhism, like Vadriyana Buddhism was Indy, is 257 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: a complex system. One comparison that I've seen elsewhere is 258 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: that you might think of these forms of Buddhism as 259 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: a kind of Buddhist super science, a kind of advancediritual technology. 260 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: Fisher points out that it essentially a means of accelerating 261 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: the path toward enlightenment, condensing the work of eons into 262 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: a single mortal lifespan. And at the same time, there 263 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: was still like a sense of urgency to the practice, 264 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: Fisher stresses, because ultimately you're dealing with the trajectory of 265 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: the human soul. So there was a great deal to 266 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: be taught, a great deal to guide one through, a 267 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: great deal as a learner to absorb. And it was 268 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: more than a written text or even a robust monastic 269 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: tradition could do on its own. Fisher writes the following quote, 270 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: The need to harness the myriad powers and to organize 271 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: the parts of this vast system into a manageable whole 272 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: required a large and complex visual system of support and 273 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: gave rise to the ritual instruments and images that have 274 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: given the Vadriana its distinctive flavor, as well as the 275 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: huge array of deities representing the tremendous range of powers 276 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: and practices. 277 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 3: Okay, so in some sense, the detail rich nature of 278 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 3: a lot of this artwork could be related to the 279 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 3: sort of the vastness and complexity of the belief system 280 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 3: underlying it exactly. 281 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, we're dealing with various images and objects here 282 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: that are not necessarily merely decoration but also ritualistic and instructional. 283 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: So the image may be full or abundant or even 284 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: you know, considered busy because there is a great deal 285 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: of information to relate and support via the image, and 286 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: I guess you know you can you can look at 287 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: various examples and other systems, Like anytime there's a lot 288 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: of information to put in an image via a map 289 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: or you know, to sort of bring it into this 290 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: realm of the unreal. I'm reminded of the maps, the 291 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: many wonderful maps that have been created over the years 292 00:16:55,120 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: for Dante's Inferno and the other books in the Divine Comedy, 293 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: where there is a fantastic physical realm that has to 294 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: be created there, but it's also just loaded with information 295 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: and loaded with all sorts of stuff, and it can 296 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: be very helpful when you're, say, reading The Inferno, but 297 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 1: also if you try and fit everything into the map, 298 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: it could conceivably be overwhelmed. Now Elsewhere in the book, 299 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: Fisher makes a great point too about the role place 300 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: has in all of this as well. So we're dealing 301 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: with centuries of tradition here. And while I don't want 302 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: to devalue the vast size of the Tibetan Plateau because 303 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: it is enormous, or the biodiversity of the region because 304 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: it contains numerous ecosystems, but individual works and monasteries are 305 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: going to be generally tied to particular locations within it. 306 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 1: As Fisher points out, the interior of a Tibetan monastery 307 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,400 Speaker 1: is elaborate, with full wall painting that quote transform those 308 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: rooms into spiritual environments which surround and even overwhelm the 309 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 1: worshiper with large, expressive displays of the many Buddhist worlds, 310 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: and he stresses that this is all in stark contrast 311 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: to the world outside the monastery, typically defined by the 312 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 1: quote often barren, wind swept Tibetan landscape. 313 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,640 Speaker 3: That's interesting. So he's saying that in many of these places, 314 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 3: if you were to go outside the monastery, you'd be 315 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 3: greeted with an image of the world that is quite beautiful, 316 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 3: but maybe not busy with detail or busy with lots 317 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 3: of little things populating it. It would be often a 318 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 3: very I don't know what the word is, A kind 319 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 3: of smooth topography. I mean, I guess not smooth, because 320 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 3: it would be mountainous, but you know, not a lot 321 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 3: of forests and cities and so forth right. 322 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, I included an image here of the Debutton Plateau, 323 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: and it's particularly gorgeous view. And at the same time, 324 00:18:55,640 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: I'm sure that one could probably find individual vistas. Don't 325 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:04,160 Speaker 1: feel is open in the Tibetan plateau. But I feel 326 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: like this kind of I feel like this has a 327 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: certain logic to it, Like the idea that first of all, 328 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: going back to the previous comment, like, on one hand, 329 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: you have information encoded in the work, but also it 330 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: has to do with this awe inspiring transition out of 331 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: the mundane world and into the inner spiritual world of 332 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: the monastery or of a temple. So I think, on 333 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: one hand, it's important to realize that the contrast between 334 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:31,239 Speaker 1: the empty and the full might be lost in an 335 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: analysis of a work, you know, if you're just viewing 336 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: it in isolation on a page, on a screen, or 337 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 1: even in a you know, a museum setting. And I 338 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 1: don't know, this is more of a tangent, but I 339 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 1: wonder how we might think of this in terms of 340 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 1: ancient versus modern, or even in just pre modern in 341 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 1: general versus modern creations, because if the world outside of 342 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: a particular experience is, by one definition or another minimalist, 343 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: then perhaps it makes more sense for the work itself, 344 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: the inner work, to present a contrast of maximalism. Likewise, 345 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 1: of the world outside the monastery is, by one definition 346 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: or another maximalist or busy, then perhaps we crave the quiet, 347 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: the simple, and the minimal within the experience of place 348 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: or painting or film or musical composition. 349 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 3: That's very interesting. I could see that. So if yeah, 350 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:24,959 Speaker 3: maybe you live in a busy city center, the sacred 351 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 3: space you retreat to, you would want to have a 352 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 3: lot of empty or uniform space in it to give 353 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 3: you a sense of rest maybe, Whereas if you live 354 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 3: in a more pastoral environment, you might want to retreat 355 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 3: to a sacred space that is full of just a busy, 356 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 3: rich detail and complexity. 357 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. And at the same time, though, I realized that 358 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: it might still be entirely subjective, because I can easily imagine, say, 359 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: you know, an individual living in the big city and 360 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: they're going into a sacred space or museum space, and like, 361 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: what is their relationship to the world on the outside? 362 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 1: Is is it and an abundant or is it is 363 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,640 Speaker 1: there an emptiness to it? And therefore they want something 364 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 1: more full on the inside, Like the sacred space should 365 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: give them an energy that they feel is lacking in 366 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: the world outside. Like, like I say, I guess it 367 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: could go either way, depending on what an individual's view 368 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: of the mundane world is. 369 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really interesting observation, though, I wonder about 370 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 3: that now. 371 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like take the various male wolf locations for example, 372 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,640 Speaker 1: those are certainly kind of maximalist experiences you don't go in. 373 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's it's not just an overabundance 374 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 1: of images. There's you know, various artists, various styles and 375 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: so forth. It's not just wall to wall. But generally 376 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 1: I have found when I when I and the one 377 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: that I visited, I left feeling like I had experienced 378 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 1: a lot. 379 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 3: That's interesting because I when I went, I found it 380 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 3: kind of RESTful as well. I think maybe it has 381 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 3: to do with the dim lighting in there, or there 382 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 3: are plenty of lights, but they're not bright white light 383 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 3: and the kind of soothing sonic atmospheres. I don't know. 384 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, So anyway, you know, I bring all this up 385 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: more or less just to raise additional questions and bring 386 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: up additional examples. But we'd obviously love to hear from 387 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: folks out there who have thoughts on all of this 388 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: related to their experiences in museums and sacred spaces, et cetera. 389 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 3: Now I mentioned earlier that I was going to come 390 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 3: back to chet VanDuzer, and this relates to fear of 391 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 3: the void in art. I came across some work by 392 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 3: previous show guests Chet van Duser on the role of 393 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 3: horror vakue in map making. So if you didn't hear 394 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 3: that episode from a few years back, chet VanDuzer is 395 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 3: an American historian of cartography, and he came on the 396 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 3: show several years back to talk about why and how 397 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:57,719 Speaker 3: cartographers of the past would so frequently add sea monsters 398 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 3: to their maps. And one possible explanation for the proliferation 399 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 3: of sirens and sly the marine serpent kings out in 400 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 3: the deep water is horror vacuee on the part of 401 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 3: the map maker. This would be the version that's not 402 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 3: just merely descriptive of something that's filling in details, but 403 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 3: a description of a motivation on the part of the 404 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 3: artist or map maker, that there's an abhorrence for blankness 405 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 3: that goes in the case of maps, beyond just the 406 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 3: creation of monsters, but to all kinds of extraneous infilling 407 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 3: of stuff in the watery corners of the page or 408 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 3: in the deep middles of continence on the page. And 409 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 3: so I was looking at a digital curation of examples 410 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 3: on the Stanford Library's website. This is for the Barry 411 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 3: Lawrence Rudermann Conference on Cartography, and there are some explanatory 412 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 3: materials by Chet van Duser, So he writes that despite 413 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 3: the fact that some previous scholars had cast doubt on 414 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 3: whether horror vacuee was ever a major influence on map makers, 415 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 3: he argues that whether you frame it as a positive 416 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 3: desire for excess decoration or a negative aversion to blank space, 417 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,479 Speaker 3: it seems pretty clear that horror vaka wei of one 418 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 3: kind or another was an important pressure in the design 419 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 3: of European maps from the sixteenth to the early eighteenth century, 420 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 3: at least four some cartographers. Because this was not universal, 421 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 3: he also shows many examples of maps that were perfectly 422 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 3: content to leave vast areas blank, often the interiors of 423 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 3: continental spaces unknown to the map maker, or vast ocean spaces. 424 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 3: Now rob I thought the first example Venduser selects that 425 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 3: we would look at here is the Taypus Aurorum Martimorum 426 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 3: Ginne Alangren. And this is a map created by the 427 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 3: Dutch cartographer Janhugen von Lynschoten, who lived fifteen sixty three 428 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 3: to sixteen eleven. I believe this map is from fifteen 429 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 3: ninety six and it depicts the South Atlantic and the 430 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 3: western coast of Africa. Now the ocean takes up it 431 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 3: looks like at least three quarters of the map. But 432 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 3: the ocean here is absolutely overflowing with stuff, to the 433 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 3: point that it's kind of funny to look at. There 434 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 3: are inset drawings of the mountains on Saint Helena and 435 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 3: Ascension Island. There is a compass or multiple compasses. There 436 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 3: is a drawing of three ships being visited by a 437 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 3: sea monster. I can't tell if the sea monster is 438 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 3: attacking the ships or just saying hello, rob Maybe you 439 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 3: can render a judgment on that illustration in a moment. 440 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 3: But there is also lots of absurdly florid lettering on 441 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 3: the names of places. Will you just look at this 442 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 3: oceanus what? I can't even read the word it's so 443 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 3: there's so much swirling on the letters. Get let the 444 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 3: podcasts or something. 445 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot going on here, and I mean 446 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 1: it almost looks like you've gotten You've got pop ups 447 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: occurring on the mask. Yes, that you need to close 448 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: out so you can see the rest of the ocean here. 449 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,959 Speaker 3: That's very Yeah, yeah you want to click the x's. Uh, 450 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 3: but let's get a good look at this sea monster. Now, 451 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 3: it looks kind of like it's a giant green fish 452 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 3: with red fins and the head of don't know, what 453 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,120 Speaker 3: would you call that, kind of like a pig calf head. 454 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's very mammalian, but it's. 455 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 3: Got the angry eyes. It's it's got attack eyes. And 456 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 3: is it attacking the ships or is it just kind 457 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 3: of flopping around for them to look at? Not quite clear. 458 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. It looks it looks. It looks 459 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: a little sweet to me, like it's just kind of 460 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 1: mine in its own business. But maybe no, no, wait, 461 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: I'm looking at it depends how you Okay, it depends 462 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,640 Speaker 1: how you look at it. At first, when I looked 463 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,360 Speaker 1: at this particular monster, I thought its head was sort 464 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 1: of to the side, And now I see it as 465 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,880 Speaker 1: it was intended. Yes, it does look angry and looks 466 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 1: more like a pig, whereas the way I seeing it 467 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: at first, it looked more like an otter. 468 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, I saw that. You were looking at 469 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,400 Speaker 3: the more zoomed out image, that does look more odder. 470 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: Like mm hmm. Yeah, But when you see it a 471 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: little closer, you can get Yeah, it has this kind 472 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 1: of a still mammalion, but angry and perhaps threatening the ships. 473 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 3: But okay, this first example, there is just so much 474 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 3: illustration in the ocean here, and just a lot of 475 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 3: inset text. The boxes boxes of text. I think they're 476 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 3: called cartouch's, maybe just like elaborately decorated boxes with like 477 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 3: those baroque museum frames illustrated around them that have you know, 478 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,120 Speaker 3: they say something in them. Now let's look at another map. 479 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 3: This is one that of Venduzer Selects that is called 480 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 3: a New Plane and Exact Map of America by Robert Walton, 481 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 3: who lived sixteen eighteen to sixteen eighty eight. I think 482 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,719 Speaker 3: this map is from sixteen sixty And let me flag 483 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 3: a little lull here at the word plane in its time, 484 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,360 Speaker 3: because again it's just it's so much stuff. The oceans 485 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 3: are filled with ships, sea monsters, random blocks of text. 486 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 3: The border of the map is stuffed with illustrations of 487 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 3: landmarks and explorers, and what the map maker believed were 488 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 3: the representations of clothing of various native peoples. There is 489 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 3: even sort of a guess at the coast of Antarctica, 490 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,680 Speaker 3: though I want to say Antarctica was not discovered until 491 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 3: the nineteenth century. This is just a random line of 492 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 3: coast south of Cape Horn that has labeled unknown land, 493 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 3: so it's just sort of a guess there's probably some 494 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 3: land down here. 495 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: Wow. This Yeah, this map is a lot to take in. 496 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that it's particularly pleasing to the eye. 497 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: It has the feeling of a publication, like in the 498 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: sense that they said, well, we've got some extra space 499 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: on here, let's get some more content on this map. 500 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 3: You know what it looks. It kind of looks like 501 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 3: did you ever have those highly informational place maps when 502 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 3: you were a kid. 503 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: Yep, yep, You're going to eat. 504 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 3: Your spaghetti on this new plane exact map of America. 505 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, this would work great as a place mat. Yeah. Yes. 506 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 3: But Van Duser, writing of Walton's map, says, quote, it 507 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 3: is tempting to think that the map's busy appearance attracted 508 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 3: and held the eyes of his customers and thus helped 509 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 3: increase sales. So that's an interesting consideration. It's possible that 510 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 3: a desire to sell maps could have driven some horror 511 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 3: vacuee in cartographers, because maybe a map seems more valuable 512 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 3: if it is filled with lots of illustrations and text. 513 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 3: Maybe it seems less valuable if the places where you 514 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 3: you know, you don't really have any geographical information to add, 515 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 3: are just blank. 516 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I can see. It's kind of like with the 517 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,239 Speaker 1: eliminated manuscripts we're discussing earlier. I mean, if you were 518 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: paying for one of these or commissioning, when you might say, hey, 519 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: I thought this thing was going to be illuminated. Where 520 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: is the illumination they paid for? Yeah, and there's a 521 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: lot of content added here, and yet at the same time, 522 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: the North part of America has a fair amount of 523 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: white space, trapped white space in it here. 524 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 3: Oh it does. Yeah, that's the interior continent. In fact, 525 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 3: some of the other examples elsewhere that Venduzer sites to 526 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 3: show cases where map makers were clearly not afraid to 527 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 3: leave blank space. A lot of that blank space is 528 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 3: like in the center of the Asian continent, so they'll 529 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 3: represent you know, Europe and Africa and like the southern 530 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 3: coast of the Asian mainland, and then like all up 531 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 3: inside there, it's just a vast blankness. They just didn't 532 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 3: know what was there. 533 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, it looks like in this particular map they added 534 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: some text under the North part of America, but they 535 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: just didn't have even enough to fill. I have a 536 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: few pictures of animals, but ultimately there's clearly a lot 537 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: that's unknown at the time of this maps. 538 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 3: Making all right, I want to look at one more 539 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 3: of Vanduzer's examples. The next one is a map by 540 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 3: Henri Abraham Chdalan called I'm not sure how to say 541 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 3: this French, but I think it's like cart Trey curieuse 542 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 3: de la Mayre de Sud. This is Amsterdam, seventeen nineteen. 543 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 3: So this is more like an attempt to This is 544 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 3: not quite a map of the entire world, but it 545 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 3: is a map of a lot of the world. So 546 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 3: it has North America, South America, half of Africa, half 547 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 3: of Europe, and then the eastern part of the Asian continent. 548 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 3: And then it's got a lot of ocean in it. 549 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 3: So it's got the Pacific Ocean, the Atlantic Ocean, and 550 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 3: once again there's all kinds of stuff sort of crowding 551 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 3: in from the edges. In fact, Rob, I would almost 552 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 3: say this adheres to the exact inverse of your rule 553 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 3: about blank space in like typesetting newspapers, where you know, 554 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 3: white space was okay if it's sort of connected to 555 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 3: the oceans at the outer edge of the page. You 556 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 3: just don't want trapped white space here. All of the 557 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 3: illustrations and boxes and cartouches seem to be just pouring 558 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 3: in from the edges of the map, if that makes sense. 559 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, it's it's very interesting to look at. And yeah, 560 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: and I'm sure a lot of this has to do 561 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: with the clearly visible trade routes that are marked, like 562 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: you don't want to throw your copious amounts of illustrations 563 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: on top of that that they work well to fill 564 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: in these areas where ships are not navigating between the continents. 565 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I really like Van User's observation about this 566 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,719 Speaker 3: map quote. The great profusion of inset maps and scenes 567 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 3: along the northern and southern edges of Henri Chatealan seventeen 568 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 3: nineteen very Curious Map of the Pacific show the cartographer's 569 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 3: strong desire to avoid empty space, and more specifically, to 570 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 3: conceal his ignorance of what lay in the extreme northern 571 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 3: and southern reais of the world. The south is essentially 572 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 3: tiled over with inset maps that include ethnographic scenes in 573 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,719 Speaker 3: the north. Note that he conceals his ignorance of northwestern 574 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 3: North America with a series of portraits of explorers. That's 575 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 3: a very clever trick, and honestly, I don't know if 576 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 3: I would have noticed it if Fanduzer hadn't pointed it out. 577 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 3: Sometimes an abundance of extraneous detail can be used to 578 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 3: distract the audience from the absence of significant or useful detail. 579 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 3: In other words, busyness can be used to hide emptiness. 580 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 3: So on a map, this would mean that you might 581 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 3: be less inclined to, you know, pipe up and say, hey, 582 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 3: wait a minute, what islands can be found in this 583 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 3: region of the Pacific Ocean, Or wait a minute, what 584 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 3: is the shape of the northwest coast of North America. 585 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 3: You might not notice to ask that question because the 586 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 3: map doesn't just sort of like go blank in these places. Instead, 587 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 3: it is plastered with like Magellan and Vespucci heads and 588 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 3: what appear to be somewhat inaccurate drawings of Mesoamerican pyramids 589 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 3: with human sacrifices happening all around them. So it's just 590 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 3: adding in these illustrations in places where the author or 591 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 3: the map maker doesn't exactly know what they should depict 592 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 3: in an informational sense in the map itself. 593 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,800 Speaker 1: Yes, this close up that you included for me of 594 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: the human sacrifice scene is quite ridiculous and monstrous. And 595 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 1: I see an individual with a face on his stomach 596 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: in the background as well. 597 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,279 Speaker 3: Is that what it is? Yeah, that's confusing. I don't 598 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 3: know what that means. 599 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean when he shows up, you know your 600 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: illustration is well off the mark when it comes to 601 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,320 Speaker 1: realistic depiction of cultural practices. 602 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 3: Is this going to help me navigate the Pacific? I'm 603 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 3: not sure, but this will come back in a minute. 604 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 3: Maybe that's not the point of a map like this, though, 605 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,800 Speaker 3: I think it's important to dwell in this for a second. 606 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 3: Because of course, this technique of hiding the lack of 607 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 3: significant or relevant detail by filling the void with irrelevant 608 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 3: or extraneous detail is not just used in maps. This 609 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 3: is actually something I notice in verbal rhetoric all the time. 610 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 3: It is like a common trick of persuasion and argumentation. 611 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 3: For example, you can see it in courtrooms if you 612 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 3: don't have very good evidence to cite in support of 613 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,320 Speaker 3: your case. Instead, you just say a lot of stuff. 614 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 3: You just try to rapidly lay out a bunch of 615 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 3: facts or claims that sound vaguely on topic. And if 616 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 3: you say enough stuff fast enough, it could be hard 617 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 3: for the jury or the audience to stop and analyze 618 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 3: each thing you said and think, wait a minute, does 619 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 3: this actually prove what you're trying to prove is does 620 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 3: this lead to your conclusion? Instead, like you use a 621 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 3: blizzard of statements to create the impression that you have 622 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 3: made argument, you hide the core of vacuity of your 623 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 3: case behind a hieronymous bosh painting of talk. 624 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: Perhaps it's kind of like with the map versus the painting. 625 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: It's more detectable when there's like a definite purpose or 626 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: intended purpose to the answer. Yeah, because it's like one 627 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:21,800 Speaker 1: thing to come up to someone and say, hey, what 628 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,760 Speaker 1: is art? And then you might get a really rambling response, 629 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: but you kind of should right, Yeah. But if it's 630 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,439 Speaker 1: more like, hey, if you can come to your boss 631 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,240 Speaker 1: and be like, what are my duties for the coming 632 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: month or how is my performance over the last quarter, 633 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 1: if there are a lot of add ons and pop 634 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 1: ups in that particular answer, then yeah, it feels like 635 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: you didn't really get a clear answer to the question. Yes. 636 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 3: Yes, In that case, the boss would be papering over 637 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 3: an actual problem in the workplace, with a bunch of 638 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:55,320 Speaker 3: extraneous detail, essentially painting like Magellan heads and Christopher Columbus 639 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,320 Speaker 3: heads over the part of the map where you should 640 00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,879 Speaker 3: be getting detail about what you're supposed to do. Yeah, 641 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,320 Speaker 3: But anyway to come back to maps specifically, Van Duser 642 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 3: argues that eventually the cartography of Horror Vacui fell out 643 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 3: of fashion. By the late seventeenth and early eighteenth century. 644 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 3: You start to see a decline in this impulse to 645 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 3: fill every corner of the map with stuff, and that 646 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,239 Speaker 3: seems to coincide with a decline in decoration generally, and 647 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:26,840 Speaker 3: an increasing trend of seeing maps purely as utilitarian scientific instruments, 648 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,319 Speaker 3: where it would just be you know, you just want 649 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 3: the information necessary. These are the navigation lines you would use, 650 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 3: These are the coastlines. So I look at all this 651 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 3: and I sort of interpret it to mean that, you know, 652 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,360 Speaker 3: in European maps of centuries prior, if you had a 653 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,839 Speaker 3: map of the coast of South America or something, it's 654 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 3: maybe more likely that this would be a kind of decorative, 655 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 3: educational or status item to maybe to stimulate the imagination, 656 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 3: or maybe in a more profane sense, to show off 657 00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 3: your wealth and worldliness or something like that. But by 658 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 3: the early eighteenth century, c maps were increasingly viewed simply 659 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,800 Speaker 3: as tools for navigation, in which case you might not 660 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 3: want a lot of extra decoration all over the place, 661 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 3: kind of like you wouldn't want the marked face of 662 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 3: a tape measure to be covered in all kinds of 663 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 3: elaborate illustrations and words. 664 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think that's a great point. Reminds me 665 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:26,879 Speaker 1: a bit of time pieces, particularly wristwatches, where you'll see 666 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,239 Speaker 1: plenty of examples of very functional time pieces that are 667 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 1: all about giving you the exact time, and in other 668 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 1: cases the time piece might be a little more stylistic, 669 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 1: sometimes so stylistic that it interferes with your ability to 670 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: accurately read what time it is. Yes, and it's not 671 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 1: to say that either approach is wrong. They just have 672 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:50,280 Speaker 1: slightly different intentions and a different focus on the actual 673 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:51,920 Speaker 1: information that is being presented. 674 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 3: So this makes me think that when there is a 675 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,759 Speaker 3: case of horror vacui as a motivation, just like a 676 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 3: desire to fill in blank spaces with stuff you know, 677 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 3: there can actually be a lot of sort of submotivations 678 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,320 Speaker 3: to that motivation. It might be because you are trying 679 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 3: to make the thing you're creating appear more valuable. Maybe 680 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 3: you're trying to attract the eye of a buyer. It 681 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 3: might be because you literally just want to contain more information. 682 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,439 Speaker 3: It might be because you want to disguise a lack 683 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 3: of information of a significant sort. Or maybe it's just 684 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 3: because you enjoy being artistically expressive and you want to 685 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,359 Speaker 3: fill lots of things in with you know, just kind 686 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 3: of exciting detail to stimulate the imagination, all of which 687 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 3: could essentially manifest is the same thing. 688 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, but how about you personally, Joe, do you think 689 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,719 Speaker 1: maps today should have more monsters on them? 690 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 3: I think Google Maps specifically should have more monsters on it, like, 691 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 3: you know, because that could be that could be filled 692 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,839 Speaker 3: in dynamically, right, you know, the monsters are roaming around. 693 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 3: That would add an interesting level of puzzle and obstacle 694 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:02,239 Speaker 3: to your daily the boring navigation tasks. I got to 695 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,200 Speaker 3: get to so and so's house or the post office 696 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:08,239 Speaker 3: or whatever, but there is a Leviathan in the way, 697 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,279 Speaker 3: and maybe I got to take a new route. 698 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, just speaking of routes. Yeah, we 699 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 1: use these various GPS powered mapping devices when we drive around, 700 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 1: and I often find that if I stop at a 701 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:26,080 Speaker 1: light or a traffic sign, that's when the pop ups 702 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,840 Speaker 1: come for me. Pop ups for like sub sandwich shops 703 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 1: and so forth. Maybe if I could pay just a 704 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: little bit each month, instead of getting the sub the 705 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 1: submarine sandwich pop up, I could just get a random 706 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,680 Speaker 1: monster from the history of maps, some sort of strange, 707 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 1: pig faced, Shrek eared monstrosity rising up out of the highway. Yeah. 708 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:49,239 Speaker 3: Why go to the sub shop when you could go 709 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 3: be devoured by a cockatrice? 710 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, or at least giving me the ability to report it. 711 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 1: If enough people are reporting the thing, then there must 712 00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:57,480 Speaker 1: be something going on. 713 00:40:58,080 --> 00:40:59,320 Speaker 3: Okay, does that do it for today? 714 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,760 Speaker 1: For part two? I believe so. Yeah. I think we've 715 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 1: filled this one into the margins here, but we'll be 716 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,839 Speaker 1: back with a third episode on the topic, so hey, 717 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 1: check back with us. Then. Just a reminder that core 718 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:14,759 Speaker 1: episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind air and Stuff 719 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind podcast feed on Tuesdays and Thursdays. 720 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 1: On Mondays we do listener mail, On Wednesdays we do 721 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,360 Speaker 1: a short form monster fact or artifact episode, and on 722 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,719 Speaker 1: Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to just talk 723 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 1: about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. 724 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,200 Speaker 3: Huge thanks to our audio producer JJ Posway. If you 725 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,360 Speaker 3: would like to get in touch with us with feedback 726 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,600 Speaker 3: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic 727 00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 3: for the future, or just to say hello, you can 728 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,799 Speaker 3: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 729 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:42,439 Speaker 3: dot com. 730 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,840 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 731 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,719 Speaker 2: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 732 00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,640 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.