1
00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:07,200
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

2
00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:14,040
Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and

3
00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,360
Speaker 2: there's Charles w Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry over there,

4
00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,439
Speaker 2: and we're all being very dainty and mindful and considerate

5
00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:22,680
Speaker 2: and this.

6
00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,840
Speaker 1: Is stuff you should know. That's right. And another great

7
00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:31,840
Speaker 1: article from Libya. She got right to the meat of

8
00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:33,360
Speaker 1: the matter. So maybe we should too.

9
00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,800
Speaker 2: Sure, Okay, I had about six seven minutes of discourse

10
00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:40,600
Speaker 2: on my own personal experience with manners. But okay, hey,

11
00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,920
Speaker 2: Pepper thows in, I don't really have that, I know.

12
00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:49,280
Speaker 2: So we are talking about manners, and essentially we should

13
00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:53,760
Speaker 2: probably define it because manners are exactly what you think of,

14
00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,160
Speaker 2: but what you think can also slide into what really

15
00:00:57,400 --> 00:00:59,960
Speaker 2: is considered etiquette, which we'll talk a little bit about later.

16
00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,959
Speaker 2: But manners can vary quite dramatically from locality to locality.

17
00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:09,600
Speaker 2: They can be regional, national, cultural, household the household. They

18
00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:13,360
Speaker 2: can differ within a neighborhood, like, for example, some houses

19
00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,440
Speaker 2: in neighborhood will ask you to take off your shoes

20
00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:17,240
Speaker 2: when you go in the house.

21
00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:19,600
Speaker 3: Others are like, why would.

22
00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:20,840
Speaker 1: You do that?

23
00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:23,280
Speaker 2: That would be considered manners one way or the other,

24
00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,240
Speaker 2: especially the taking off of your shoes thing. So it's

25
00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:31,800
Speaker 2: kind of like an expectation of polite behavior that is

26
00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:35,520
Speaker 2: culturally bound. Typically that's what manners.

27
00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:39,399
Speaker 1: Are, and a time era based it.

28
00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:43,040
Speaker 2: Can be, for sure. But some Chuck Olivia cited almost

29
00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:45,920
Speaker 2: out of the gate an Egypsian vizier who's a political

30
00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:52,720
Speaker 2: advisor from the Furonic era. His name was ta Hotep,

31
00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,200
Speaker 2: not to be confused with Bubba Hotep, but ta Hotep,

32
00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,960
Speaker 2: and he in his resignation letter, essentially his retirement letter

33
00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,920
Speaker 2: to the pharaoh, gave all of this advice to young

34
00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,000
Speaker 2: people in particular, but it was just basically life advice.

35
00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,480
Speaker 2: But it was generally advice on manners, and it is

36
00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,960
Speaker 2: it holds up today, like four thousand years later.

37
00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:19,120
Speaker 1: Some of it does. One of the pieces of advice

38
00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:23,840
Speaker 1: was to stay away from a battle of insults. Good advice, yep.

39
00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:25,959
Speaker 1: Avoid gossip that's another good one.

40
00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:26,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

41
00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,760
Speaker 1: One that's a little questionable is eat whatever a superior

42
00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:30,720
Speaker 1: offers you.

43
00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,280
Speaker 2: Especially if they mash it in your mouths, they eat it.

44
00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:34,160
Speaker 3: Stupid cow.

45
00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I agree, but they can stand the test

46
00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,240
Speaker 1: of time, for sure. But sometimes they're very locked in time.

47
00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,080
Speaker 1: But the difference between manners and etiquette even though you can,

48
00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,480
Speaker 1: you know, you can use those interchangeably generally. But etiquette

49
00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,520
Speaker 1: is a little more formalized, like set of rules, and

50
00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,160
Speaker 1: you'll often see them like published in books, and a

51
00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:01,320
Speaker 1: lot of times it's tied to very ritualized, formalized stuff

52
00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:05,480
Speaker 1: like you know, in the King's court, in royal courts,

53
00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:11,000
Speaker 1: at fine formal dining meals and stuff like that, So

54
00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:12,040
Speaker 1: it's a little more formal.

55
00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:14,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, Manners are another way to put it in. Manners

56
00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,160
Speaker 2: are something that are ingrained from you by your culture, from.

57
00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:19,800
Speaker 3: Your early childhood on.

58
00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,880
Speaker 2: Etiquette is something you kind of actually have to actively

59
00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,119
Speaker 2: seek out to learn, like whether it's from a book

60
00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:28,120
Speaker 2: or from a finishing school or something like that.

61
00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:29,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, or you have like a.

62
00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,400
Speaker 2: Spinster aunt who doesn't have anything else to do but

63
00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:36,320
Speaker 2: browbeat you into keeping your elbows off the table tammy,

64
00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:38,360
Speaker 2: dammy oh man.

65
00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,560
Speaker 1: So one thing that you're going to see pop up

66
00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,000
Speaker 1: a lot. And we probably don't even have to mention

67
00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,640
Speaker 1: all of these examples because Libby is always so great

68
00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,200
Speaker 1: at our cup always runneth over when she gives us stuff.

69
00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,080
Speaker 1: But one repeated thing that you'll see is a lot

70
00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,920
Speaker 1: of philosophers talk about this kind of stuff, and most

71
00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,520
Speaker 1: of them agree, And most people agree that manners aren't

72
00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,760
Speaker 1: just it's not just, hey, be polite to people. It's

73
00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,720
Speaker 1: this is sort of the these are sort of the

74
00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:10,840
Speaker 1: unwritten rules that keep us functioning as a civilized society.

75
00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, high and low, like some are really really important,

76
00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,880
Speaker 2: like prohibitions on violence, especially random on expected violence against

77
00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,479
Speaker 2: other people. That's tip very better falls under Yeah, it does.

78
00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,600
Speaker 2: It falls under the category of manners technically. And then

79
00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:31,600
Speaker 2: also it can be much more evolved in just designed

80
00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,760
Speaker 2: to make life more pleasant, like say opening doors for

81
00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,680
Speaker 2: people you know, man or woman, but the person following

82
00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,279
Speaker 2: you holding the door for them, that's mannerfol It just

83
00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,720
Speaker 2: makes it nicer than the shutting the door on somebody's

84
00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,680
Speaker 2: face who's coming in behind you. And that If you

85
00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:54,080
Speaker 2: put all that together, manners essentially hold civilization together. They're

86
00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,480
Speaker 2: the glue that keeps civilization civilized.

87
00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. There was one modern day philosopher that Lyvia found

88
00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:06,440
Speaker 1: named Anya Barringer, who said, it's sort of like it

89
00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:10,800
Speaker 1: keeps you pro social and keeps your attention focused on

90
00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,839
Speaker 1: making sure other people are doing fine. And an example

91
00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,480
Speaker 1: that Olivia gab was like, you know, let's say you're

92
00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,080
Speaker 1: throwing a dinner party at your house, and what you

93
00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:22,080
Speaker 1: really want to do, though, halfway through that dinner party

94
00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,479
Speaker 1: maybe is good to bed because you're just beat, But

95
00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:26,839
Speaker 1: you don't because that would not be mannerly. So what

96
00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,480
Speaker 1: you're doing is you're focusing on everyone else and making

97
00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,760
Speaker 1: sure their drink is filled, that they had all they

98
00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:33,760
Speaker 1: want to eat, and you're maybe clearing the dishes and

99
00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:37,279
Speaker 1: doing all that stuff. So you're focused, and it's all

100
00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,760
Speaker 1: under the umbrella of good manners. But what you're really

101
00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:43,920
Speaker 1: doing is focusing on pro social behaviors.

102
00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,159
Speaker 2: Right, And so some people that now we enter like

103
00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,200
Speaker 2: where some people are really critical of that. Like some

104
00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,200
Speaker 2: people would argue, you're really tired, go to bed, Why

105
00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,560
Speaker 2: are you Why are you sacrificing your health conceivably just

106
00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,479
Speaker 2: to keep some people you may or may not even

107
00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:03,960
Speaker 2: particularly like satisfied. Sure you would hope, but I mean,

108
00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,599
Speaker 2: somebody always brings tammy, I know. So there's a guy,

109
00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,600
Speaker 2: a philosopher named Diogenes. He was one of the founders

110
00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,160
Speaker 2: of the school of Cynics way back in the day

111
00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:19,160
Speaker 2: in ancient Greece I believe in the third century. Yeah,

112
00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:23,120
Speaker 2: about twenty three hundred years ago. In Diogenies, he dedicated

113
00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:27,240
Speaker 2: his life to pointing out the hypocrisy that manners generate

114
00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:31,880
Speaker 2: in people. He saw manners as a forced mask that

115
00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,600
Speaker 2: people had to wear that hid their true cells from

116
00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,240
Speaker 2: other people. And he wasn't saying you should go around

117
00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,080
Speaker 2: and like hit other people if you want to, Like,

118
00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,760
Speaker 2: he married the thing with morality, like you needed to

119
00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,240
Speaker 2: be moral and upstanding, but you didn't need to be,

120
00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:54,239
Speaker 2: you know, deferential to some superior because they're superior because

121
00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,039
Speaker 2: society says they are. They're no more superior to you

122
00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,520
Speaker 2: than you are to them. That was diogenes whole thing.

123
00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,160
Speaker 2: And he hated manners so much so that he engaged

124
00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,880
Speaker 2: in some pre shocking behavior in public just to kind

125
00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:07,679
Speaker 2: of prove his point.

126
00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, as the stories go, he would masturbate and urinate

127
00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,920
Speaker 1: in public and defecate. Yeah. So I don't know when

128
00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,440
Speaker 1: you talk about like he really believed in like upstanding morals.

129
00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,200
Speaker 2: Sure, but his point was if you're doing something in

130
00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:25,440
Speaker 2: private with no problem, you should be able to do

131
00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,040
Speaker 2: it in public. You're hiding your true self if you

132
00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,960
Speaker 2: don't masturbate in public essentially was Diogeny's point, and as

133
00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,480
Speaker 2: a result, people don't typically take up Diogeny's point, and

134
00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:40,360
Speaker 2: in fact, he's very frequently considered an exception to the rule.

135
00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,240
Speaker 2: Like the fact that he railed so hard against manners

136
00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,760
Speaker 2: and just basically it seemed like a weirdo to everybody

137
00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,800
Speaker 2: else kind of shows the importance of manners and keeping

138
00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,960
Speaker 2: civilized society together. Like people are like, okay, yeah, I

139
00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,360
Speaker 2: will kind of not respond to a jerk who's you know,

140
00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:04,040
Speaker 2: socially my social better in exchange for not having to

141
00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,440
Speaker 2: walk down the street and watch everybody masturbating in.

142
00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:11,920
Speaker 1: Public, right right. Even the great philosophers over time that

143
00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,440
Speaker 1: have sort of had a problem with the really formal,

144
00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:20,960
Speaker 1: hoity toity, courtly type of stuff and that kind of extravagance,

145
00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,400
Speaker 1: most of them even still agreed that like a basic

146
00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:29,720
Speaker 1: level of manners and politeness is important to hold society together,

147
00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:31,480
Speaker 1: and if it was, if we didn't have that stuff,

148
00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:35,600
Speaker 1: society would just crumble. Where it can get really tricky,

149
00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:37,559
Speaker 1: and we'll talk you know about this here and there

150
00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:43,320
Speaker 1: is when you're you get too into policing someone else's manners,

151
00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:50,320
Speaker 1: or when you're using that as sort of a I guess,

152
00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:52,559
Speaker 1: sort of a dog whistle to talk about like the

153
00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,840
Speaker 1: quote unquote wrong kinds of people and that kind of

154
00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,240
Speaker 1: thing that can get very squirmy and thorny.

155
00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,160
Speaker 2: Right, We also should say, and we'll get into it

156
00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,960
Speaker 2: a little more later, it's manners are culturally bound. Like

157
00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,920
Speaker 2: what's what's good manners in one society is not necessarily

158
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:13,840
Speaker 2: easily translated to another society. Olivia used the example of

159
00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,920
Speaker 2: the Joho Jojo Nazi Johoansi.

160
00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:18,440
Speaker 3: That's what I'm going with.

161
00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:24,319
Speaker 2: Joe Ho Nazi people of Namibia, and they're hunter gatherers,

162
00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,280
Speaker 2: and they have a tradition where the hunter who brings

163
00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:32,840
Speaker 2: back meat is often its typically criticized for it there

164
00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,320
Speaker 2: not being enough meat for the meat being of like

165
00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,040
Speaker 2: so so quality, and they're doing that to like knock

166
00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:41,240
Speaker 2: them down a peg so he doesn't feel any more

167
00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,440
Speaker 2: superior to anybody else. And you actually see this in

168
00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:48,160
Speaker 2: like the British Isles. It's a real tradition, not necessarily

169
00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,520
Speaker 2: of criticizing the meat a hunter brings back, but it

170
00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:56,760
Speaker 2: could happen and more just kind of like social restrictions

171
00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:58,599
Speaker 2: like getting too big for your bridges, I think is

172
00:09:58,600 --> 00:09:59,880
Speaker 2: a way to put it.

173
00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, And a lot of the European style of etiquette

174
00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,080
Speaker 1: is historically a lot of it is based around these

175
00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,800
Speaker 1: meal times and very formal set meal times that you

176
00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,040
Speaker 1: sit down all together and you eat this big meal,

177
00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:13,520
Speaker 1: and a lot of cultures through history don't do that

178
00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,320
Speaker 1: kind of thing. Native Americans didn't, or you know, many

179
00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,760
Speaker 1: tribes didn't sit and have some big meal. Their jam

180
00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,280
Speaker 1: was to like, hey, I got a stew on the

181
00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,360
Speaker 1: pot at all hours of the day, So if you

182
00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:28,600
Speaker 1: show up in my place, I might offer you some

183
00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:30,600
Speaker 1: food you might want to eat. If you're hungry, then

184
00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:32,959
Speaker 1: that's great. So we don't have that kind of formal thing.

185
00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:38,079
Speaker 1: So that's obviously going to cause some friction and awkwardness

186
00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:42,719
Speaker 1: when Europeans come over and meet Native Americans and say,

187
00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:44,439
Speaker 1: we're going to make our way your way.

188
00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,720
Speaker 2: So I was reading about that and apparently that social

189
00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,120
Speaker 2: standard for manners for offering food and having like a

190
00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,120
Speaker 2: perpetual pot of stew going was that held up during

191
00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,520
Speaker 2: lean times winter like it didn't matter how little food

192
00:10:57,559 --> 00:10:59,640
Speaker 2: you had, you still were expected to have that pot

193
00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:01,360
Speaker 2: of you for for visitors.

194
00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think if the TV show Reservation Dogs

195
00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:07,720
Speaker 1: is accurate, and I believe it is to modern day

196
00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,520
Speaker 1: Native American culture. They on that show, they were they

197
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,040
Speaker 1: eat a lot, and they offer each other food a lot.

198
00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:15,040
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

199
00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,760
Speaker 2: And there's another thing about offering food is there's a

200
00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:24,360
Speaker 2: lot of cultures that expect you to decline being offered

201
00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:29,560
Speaker 2: additional food. But there's that's part of a larger kind

202
00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:34,800
Speaker 2: of dance where you the the host continues to offer

203
00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,680
Speaker 2: multiple times, and then after a set amount of times,

204
00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,560
Speaker 2: you can then and are actually expected to to say, yes,

205
00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,160
Speaker 2: that would be great, thanks, I'll take I'll take some more.

206
00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:47,319
Speaker 1: Yeah. That that can be a big thing in the South, Uh,

207
00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:49,559
Speaker 1: offering you food over and over or like.

208
00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:49,880
Speaker 3: Uh.

209
00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,600
Speaker 1: I've experienced that with Italian families in the Northeast. Uh.

210
00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,320
Speaker 1: You know, sit down, keep eating right, and you know,

211
00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:00,640
Speaker 1: I'm usually happy, happy to oblige. I don't want to

212
00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:01,120
Speaker 1: be rude.

213
00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:05,120
Speaker 3: Sure, who would be? You want to take a break, Yeah.

214
00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:17,080
Speaker 1: Let's take an early break before we dive into europe

215
00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:31,840
Speaker 1: salvation no dovish no. All right. So, as we say,

216
00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,680
Speaker 1: manners and etiquette has changed here and there over the years,

217
00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:37,920
Speaker 1: and as we'll see a lot of times when there's

218
00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:41,360
Speaker 1: a big sort of like a big war or big

219
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:43,680
Speaker 1: social change or a big change in power or something

220
00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,840
Speaker 1: like that. A lot of times you'll see these etiquette

221
00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:52,079
Speaker 1: rules changing. And there's a book called The History of

222
00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:56,960
Speaker 1: Manners written in nineteen thirty nine by Norbert Elias that

223
00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:02,160
Speaker 1: said that, you know, medieval era through the nineteenth century,

224
00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,320
Speaker 1: there was a big change in that. That's when people

225
00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,079
Speaker 1: started to care a little bit how they were viewed

226
00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:11,720
Speaker 1: by other people. They started to feel shame for doing

227
00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,840
Speaker 1: things for the first time. Yeah, and they started to

228
00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,480
Speaker 1: say things like, you know, it's really gross to see

229
00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:20,360
Speaker 1: you blow your nose at the table or to go

230
00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,520
Speaker 1: like to get up from your meal and go urinate

231
00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,160
Speaker 1: in the corner or something like that, and like we

232
00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,319
Speaker 1: need we should keep our bodily functions to ourselves.

233
00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:27,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

234
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:32,480
Speaker 2: So around the time of the Renaissance, the first guides

235
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,000
Speaker 2: to manners started to come out, and that was a

236
00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:40,960
Speaker 2: good example of social organization in upheaval. The Renaissance was,

237
00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:43,200
Speaker 2: so it makes sense that this would be one of

238
00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,280
Speaker 2: the first guides to manners. In Europe, it was called

239
00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:51,880
Speaker 2: the sivila tate morum purillium, which means civility of childish manners.

240
00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:52,760
Speaker 1: Yeah.

241
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,040
Speaker 2: It was written by Erasmus, the famous Dutch philosopher, back

242
00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,760
Speaker 2: in fifteen thirty, and he took some time out from

243
00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,760
Speaker 2: translating the New Testament to write down manners, which basically

244
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,160
Speaker 2: was like, Hey, don't stir gravy with your fingers, don't

245
00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:12,320
Speaker 2: blow your nose on the tablecloth at the table. Actually,

246
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,920
Speaker 2: just don't blow your nose on any tablecloth anywhere in

247
00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:15,920
Speaker 2: any part of the house.

248
00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:16,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

249
00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:19,720
Speaker 2: And then if they showed spoons a lot, there would

250
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:23,360
Speaker 2: be communal soup, so you would taste the soup with

251
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,400
Speaker 2: the spoon, and he instructed, okay, after that, wipe it

252
00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,320
Speaker 2: with a napkin after your use of that spoon before

253
00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:34,000
Speaker 2: you put it back, which seems highly civilized for fifteen thirty.

254
00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:35,680
Speaker 1: Can I cover this other one?

255
00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:37,000
Speaker 3: Yes? Please.

256
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,160
Speaker 1: It's a pretty great trick still holds up today. If

257
00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,800
Speaker 1: you have to fart at the table, cover up the

258
00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:45,440
Speaker 1: sound of the fart with a heavy cough.

259
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:47,120
Speaker 2: I can't cough that long.

260
00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,600
Speaker 1: Well, And to me, those two things are sort of

261
00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:53,320
Speaker 1: I don't know if I can do those things at

262
00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,080
Speaker 1: the same time, because they both engage the same mechanisms

263
00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,640
Speaker 1: for me, right, I don't know that'd be weird. I've

264
00:14:58,640 --> 00:14:59,120
Speaker 1: never tried.

265
00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,360
Speaker 2: Instead, suck in a bunch of air in pucker your

266
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,680
Speaker 2: bottom hole. That's my advice.

267
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna try that at some point, not at

268
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,000
Speaker 1: a dinner table. I don't fart at the dinner table

269
00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:12,320
Speaker 1: at all.

270
00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,720
Speaker 2: Good for you, Chuck, You're really Erasmus would be proud.

271
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,760
Speaker 1: In the eighteenth century, in the royal courts, things got

272
00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,120
Speaker 1: a little more sophisticated. Etiquette got a little more rigid.

273
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,240
Speaker 1: They you know, the word etiquette actually came from this

274
00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:32,480
Speaker 1: time period. Comes from France, obviously, and there are different

275
00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,240
Speaker 1: stories that it came from the word for ticket or

276
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,480
Speaker 1: a label. Some people you might find online that it

277
00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,800
Speaker 1: came from signs keep off the grass, signs that King

278
00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,600
Speaker 1: Louis had at Versailles, even though Livia said she couldn't

279
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,000
Speaker 1: find a lot of really great things to back that up.

280
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:52,760
Speaker 1: But Marie Antoinette apparently did have a nickname for her

281
00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:59,920
Speaker 1: French aristocratic retainer, Madame Etiquette, because she was always saying, like,

282
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:01,800
Speaker 1: you gotta do this, you got to do this right.

283
00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:07,240
Speaker 2: They also did eventually start printing instructions for how to

284
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,880
Speaker 2: behave at court, and that really follows in the vein

285
00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,640
Speaker 2: of a label or a ticket. So that also kind

286
00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,680
Speaker 2: of later on, I think, after the fact, became etiquette

287
00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,360
Speaker 2: a name for that. It didn't make its way into

288
00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:27,240
Speaker 2: English until I think the seventeen hundreds of mid seventeen hundreds,

289
00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,720
Speaker 2: and there was an Earl of Chesterfield, the fourth to

290
00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:35,200
Speaker 2: be exact. His name was Philip Dormer Stanhope, and he

291
00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,320
Speaker 2: was very famous for a series of letters that he

292
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,480
Speaker 2: wrote to his illegitimate son. He was a minister in

293
00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:46,520
Speaker 2: Holland for the English Crown, and while there he fathered

294
00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:48,600
Speaker 2: a son, and he kept in touch and basically tried

295
00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:53,680
Speaker 2: to explain to his son how to behave in civilized society.

296
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:55,600
Speaker 2: And it ended up being, if you put all the

297
00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:59,320
Speaker 2: letters together, a pretty funny, witty but also very insightful

298
00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:03,200
Speaker 2: treat us on manners.

299
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,280
Speaker 1: At the time, Yeah, it was kind of long distance fathering.

300
00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,800
Speaker 1: He talked about Libya. Is quite a few of these.

301
00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,359
Speaker 1: These are pretty good, but long talkers. That's a pretty

302
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,760
Speaker 1: fun one. If one of these unmerciful talkers lays hold

303
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,199
Speaker 1: of you, hear him with patience and at least seeming attention,

304
00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:21,840
Speaker 1: if he is worth obliging.

305
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:26,719
Speaker 2: Yeah or yeah, don't carve meat to so much that

306
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,240
Speaker 2: you bespatter the company with the sauce or turn overturn

307
00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,760
Speaker 2: the glasses in your neighbor's pockets. So just don't, you know,

308
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,040
Speaker 2: just be cool when you're carving meat, I think.

309
00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:36,680
Speaker 3: Is what he was saying.

310
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:38,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's pretty good.

311
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:38,879
Speaker 3: What else?

312
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,280
Speaker 1: This one I don't quite get, although I think I

313
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,440
Speaker 1: do maybe for the time period. In scandal, as in robbery,

314
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,119
Speaker 1: the receiver is always thought as bad as the thief.

315
00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:53,399
Speaker 1: So I get that he's talking about gossip. So like

316
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,600
Speaker 1: the gossiper, you know, is no better than the person

317
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:57,720
Speaker 1: that they're gossiping about.

318
00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,840
Speaker 2: No, no, I think the person listening to the gossip too.

319
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,760
Speaker 1: Well, everyone's bad then, right. But what I don't get

320
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,399
Speaker 1: is comparing it to a robbery, Like if you're.

321
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,760
Speaker 2: The fence and you're getting the stolen items, you're no

322
00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:12,840
Speaker 2: better than the thief who actually went in and stole

323
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:13,320
Speaker 2: the items.

324
00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:15,800
Speaker 1: Oh, the receiver is the fence, Okay, I get it out.

325
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,960
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, like Redfoot, Yeah yeah. Another one that I

326
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,040
Speaker 2: thought was pretty interesting was be not dark nor mysterious,

327
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:25,960
Speaker 2: And he was basically saying, like, be friendly to everybody,

328
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,119
Speaker 2: but be careful how much information you share, and that

329
00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,320
Speaker 2: is a long standing piece of advice for manners. It

330
00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:37,080
Speaker 2: goes back to Yeah, it goes back to Betahoe Tep

331
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:41,400
Speaker 2: who basically said, like, when you're speaking to your equal,

332
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,000
Speaker 2: you can be better than them by being silent. Like, really,

333
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,200
Speaker 2: watch how much information you share with those people. And

334
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:53,159
Speaker 2: the Philip Sandhope was widely criticized, I'm not sure if

335
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,119
Speaker 2: it was in his lifetime or not when his letters

336
00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,200
Speaker 2: came out and were published for being a very cynical

337
00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:02,840
Speaker 2: person who was also you know, shrewdly tuned in to

338
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:08,400
Speaker 2: manners and how to act courtly. But that really it's

339
00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,800
Speaker 2: he exposed it for its worst kind of use, which

340
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:19,640
Speaker 2: is social jockeying, essentially trying trying to get ahead by

341
00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:25,919
Speaker 2: hijacking the prescribed set of manners or rituals or etiquette

342
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,960
Speaker 2: that that anybody can engage in. And if you do

343
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,800
Speaker 2: it right and you're charming enough and you peer sincere

344
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:36,439
Speaker 2: on the surface, even the greatest psychopath around can become

345
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:41,160
Speaker 2: very wealthy and powerful thanks to etiquette. Following etiquette manners.

346
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's a little tricky though, because a

347
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:47,240
Speaker 1: lot of people have labeled that very thing sort of

348
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,720
Speaker 1: the great democratizer. If you're someone who is of a

349
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,040
Speaker 1: you know at the time and whatever culture you're in,

350
00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,440
Speaker 1: like in a what's looked at as a lower class,

351
00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,800
Speaker 1: and you can learn these etiquette rules and pass yourself

352
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,840
Speaker 1: off physy upper class, then it levels the playing field totally.

353
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:03,520
Speaker 3: It does both.

354
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:04,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting.

355
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,639
Speaker 2: They're not mutually exclusive. It's just some of those people

356
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:13,040
Speaker 2: can have ill intentions or be insincere jerks. Other people

357
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,360
Speaker 2: are like, I really want to do better for myself

358
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,320
Speaker 2: and there's not easy access to college. This is how

359
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,280
Speaker 2: to how to get ahead in life, So I'm going

360
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:23,560
Speaker 2: to go learn this stuff and be earnest about it.

361
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's a common I'm not gonna call

362
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:28,360
Speaker 1: it a trope, but just sort of a common theme

363
00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:32,199
Speaker 1: and a lot of movies of someone sort of conning

364
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:37,720
Speaker 1: their way into the elite society, whether it's oh gosh.

365
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:41,800
Speaker 2: Secret of My Success, Short Circuit Too.

366
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:48,240
Speaker 1: Six Degrees of Separation, or I can't think of Grifters

367
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:49,040
Speaker 1: is even doing that.

368
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:50,520
Speaker 3: I've never seen it.

369
00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:54,160
Speaker 1: Oh wow, Grifters is great, But you know, I can't

370
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:59,080
Speaker 1: think of like an old sort of English movie version

371
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,479
Speaker 1: of that. But I know, oh, like tricking your way

372
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:02,960
Speaker 1: into court was a common theme.

373
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,199
Speaker 2: What about Barry Linden. Oh, yeah, there you go, thank you,

374
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:07,560
Speaker 2: thank you everybody?

375
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:09,680
Speaker 1: What agreatment? Did you hear the applaude?

376
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 3: Yeah in my head. So.

377
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:20,080
Speaker 2: And then in the United States, the initial adoption of

378
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:25,760
Speaker 2: manners and etiquette in particular was basically European exports important

379
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,800
Speaker 2: to the States from very early on. And it wasn't

380
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:33,480
Speaker 2: until the nineteen twenties that well, I shouldn't say that,

381
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,440
Speaker 2: it wasn't until the nineteen twenties that the Americans were

382
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:42,399
Speaker 2: exposed to the formal etiquette that had developed over the

383
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:47,880
Speaker 2: years on its own in America through Emily Post. Now,

384
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:51,439
Speaker 2: it had been developing from say the mid nineteenth century on.

385
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,160
Speaker 2: It basically was attached to a rocket ship during the

386
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 2: Second Industrial Revolution in the United States and the ensuing

387
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 2: Gilded Age, because there was suddenly a lot of very

388
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,560
Speaker 2: wealthy people who may or may not have had any

389
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 2: wealth whatsoever before. And so all of these all this etiquette,

390
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,879
Speaker 2: these rules of etiquette started to develop and pass along,

391
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,600
Speaker 2: and Emily Post was raised in that world, and she,

392
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:20,680
Speaker 2: as I think a forty something divorce a sat down

393
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,920
Speaker 2: and put pen to paper and wrote what became the

394
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 2: most successful etiquette book of all time.

395
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, in nineteen twenty two, Etiquette in Society, not a

396
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 1: colon Everybody a comma, Etiquette in Society and business and

397
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 1: politics and at home. These days that would still have

398
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 1: a colon and some dumb long subtitle.

399
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 2: It'd be nothing. It be instead of commas to be colon, colon, colon, colon.

400
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:52,119
Speaker 1: Everywhere, aka how to act right right. But you know,

401
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 1: Emily Post is very famous for being sort of one

402
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:58,200
Speaker 1: of the first Americans to put this forward. She talked

403
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 1: about belonging to the best society, and in her eyes

404
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 1: that meant, well, you know, you're born into it in Europe,

405
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,200
Speaker 1: or you're born into it or earn it in the

406
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,879
Speaker 1: way of wealth in the US. But what I'm really

407
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 1: trying to talk about is just how to belong in

408
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 1: those worlds because you're polite and you have good behavior

409
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 1: and a charm of manner. Vanity Fair. Laura Jacobs from

410
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 1: Vanity Fair said it was one of the twenty centuries

411
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 1: great acts of democracy. And again it's this idea that

412
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,879
Speaker 1: here's the code everybody. It's for everyone to learn if

413
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:33,439
Speaker 1: they want to.

414
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was reading about her. I was reading that

415
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 2: Vanity Fair article, and Emily Post was a heck of

416
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 2: a person. She had a great sense of humor, She

417
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 2: had a great sense of perspective of herself in the

418
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 2: world and even the manners that she was talking about.

419
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 2: But she became divorced after it came to light that

420
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,640
Speaker 2: her husband had been running around on her. But before

421
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 2: they divorced, she found out about this because he was

422
00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 2: being blackmailed. There's a blackmailing scheme that blackmailed everybody in

423
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 2: New York society. And they finally got around to Emily

424
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:10,120
Speaker 2: Post's husband and he told her about it, and she said,

425
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 2: don't do not just fall prey to these people, like

426
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 2: call the cops, expose these people. And she did it

427
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:21,199
Speaker 2: at the risk of great personal scandal, like she was

428
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,640
Speaker 2: outed as having been cheated on by her husband, which

429
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 2: really shouldn't have shocked anybody, like all husbands cheated on

430
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 2: their wives back then, especially in that level of society.

431
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 2: But she put herself out there and allowed it to happen,

432
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 2: to be publicly humiliated, I guess is what you call it,

433
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 2: in order to prevent some scummy blackmailers from winning again.

434
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 2: And she actually shut down the blackmailing ring with the

435
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,439
Speaker 2: help of the cops just by allowing this to happen.

436
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 1: Was there an etiquette angler or was that just mora

437
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 1: an Emily post?

438
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 2: Was it just shows that she had such a sense

439
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 2: of justice and what was right that she was willing

440
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,640
Speaker 2: to put herself out there in a really un comfortable

441
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 2: way to ensure that that justice was done.

442
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 3: I think, awesome.

443
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:06,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's a neat person.

444
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:12,879
Speaker 1: So Judith Martin is another very famous manner advice person

445
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 1: here in America, Miss Manners aka Miss Manners. This advice

446
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: column started in nineteen seventy eight, it's still around, and

447
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: Judith Martin is another person who says, you know, this

448
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 1: is the glue that binds society and kind of holds

449
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: us all together.

450
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

451
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 1: There was another term, which I really like call the

452
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: politics of respectability, coined by a historian named Evelyn Brooks Higginbotham,

453
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: and she was talking about black women in the progressive

454
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 1: era who were saying, you know, be polite, be modest,

455
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 1: and this is how we're gonna help make change. And

456
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 1: Olivia points out, like these these awful pictures during the

457
00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: Civil Rights era of black American you know, dressed in

458
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: their best Sunday suit, you know, getting fire hosed at

459
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 1: a demonstration, you know, stuff like that.

460
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, some people have said like that's that was a

461
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 2: good tactic, like it made a lot of sense at

462
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,400
Speaker 2: the time, and it probably did help quite a bit.

463
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,719
Speaker 2: But just if you step back and think about having

464
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 2: to be civilized in the face of that, just to

465
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 2: get basic entrance to to constitutional rights is pretty rotten

466
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 2: if you stop and think about it like that.

467
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there are a couple of angles, for sure.

468
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 2: So I say we take our second ad break and

469
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 2: then come back and talk about get this manners.

470
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 1: Let's do it.

471
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 2: Noon, okay, Chuck. So we were talking earlier about how

472
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:12,479
Speaker 2: manners and even etiquette are not easily translated across culture.

473
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 2: Sometimes some are I was looking for universal manners and

474
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 2: I could not find them. I think the closest thing

475
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 2: that I found that was essentially universal is and I

476
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 2: don't even think that's correct, but I'll say that it's

477
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 2: very widespread is the concept of superiors, equals and inferiors

478
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 2: within a society and how you interact with each one.

479
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 2: That seems to be fairly universal except in Scotland and

480
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 2: among the Jewel Huansi, Jewel hu Nasi.

481
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 1: Oh that's funny. Yeah, I mean, there are a lot

482
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: of examples of this. There's we talked about Edward T.

483
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: Hall in our pair Personal Space episode in nineteen fifty five.

484
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 1: This is when he was some of his best work,

485
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 1: and he talks about and this is course in nineteen

486
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: fifty five. But so it's kind of funny to look

487
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: at some of these. But he talked about Americans interacting

488
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: with other countries, and he was like, you know, if

489
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 1: you're from China, you might be you might think someone

490
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: raising their voice like always means that they're angry. So

491
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: that if they see an American like really emphasizing a

492
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: point by raising their voice, they might be caught off

493
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: guard and think they're angry. Whereas, and again this is

494
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties and Latin America. If a business person

495
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: from America introduced themselves, like you know, from across the

496
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: room and said, mister Charles W. Chuck Bryant, they may

497
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: think that's a little too formal. But then on the

498
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: other hand, they also might say, but these Americans, they'll

499
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: just like kick back and put their feet on their

500
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: desk in the middle of a meeting. And you don't

501
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: do that kind of thing at work.

502
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 2: I can just see an American meeting somebody from like

503
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 2: Brazil and introducing themselves as mister right. Some Brazil's does

504
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 2: their best, like Emo Phipps, like Lah.

505
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 3: Remember him?

506
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 2: He was famous for that who Emo Phipps. He had

507
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 2: that weird like page boy haircut.

508
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: And he was Phillips, Emo Phillips.

509
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 3: I thought it was Phipps.

510
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: I thought it was Phillips. Am I wrong.

511
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 3: No, I think it's one of those two.

512
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 1: He's still around, I think, or did he just pass away?

513
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 3: I don't think so.

514
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: No, Okay, I never I think. Didn't we talk about

515
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: him recently?

516
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 3: Yes?

517
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: But then I feel like we did. Okay, No, he's

518
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: still a life.

519
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 3: Good for him? Is it Phillips or Phipps?

520
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 2: It's Phillips Okay, I'm sorry.

521
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: Emo, he's almost seventy. What I know?

522
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 3: Wow?

523
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: That page boy? That will make you look young, Chuck.

524
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 2: I think we're getting old too. Is one of the things.

525
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 1: No, Uh, let's talk about punctuality for a minute. Yeah,

526
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: that's huge, because that's, depending on where you are, can

527
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: mean a lot of things. I often laugh when I

528
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: think back at going to my dear friend Seema's wedding.

529
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: She married my good friend Chris, and they had you know,

530
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: big Indian wedding and everyone was always late on her

531
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: side to all the functions, and she just always laughed

532
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 1: and was like, hey, the Indians relationship to time is

533
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: very loose, and so everyone just get used to it

534
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: because it's going to be happening in all weekend long, right,

535
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: And they were all wonderful and they were always late,

536
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,719
Speaker 1: and it was a lot of fun and funny.

537
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 2: So in Australia and New Zealand, punctuality is very very important,

538
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 2: like even more important than in the United States, where

539
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 2: it's pretty important.

540
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 3: Here.

541
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 2: I mean, there's usually about a five minute grace period

542
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 2: to where the person is willing to not get upset I.

543
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: Think, and then fins on the thing fifteen minutes if.

544
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 2: It's something that you're paying somebody for, like say, oh sure,

545
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 2: hair appointment or whatever. If you're trying to move your

546
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 2: part closer to the crown of your head, you can

547
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: be up to fifteen minutes late without without them penalizing you.

548
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 3: Right.

549
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 2: But for the most part it's pretty important here. I

550
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 2: get the impression. In Australia New Zealand it's I saw

551
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 2: it put it.

552
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: It's critical yeah. My deal with punctuality is I am

553
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: a very punctual person. I get very stressed out if

554
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: I'm running late, and I really try my best to

555
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: not run late for anything. And I've but I've gotten

556
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: really good about trying to not let other people's lateness

557
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: upset me. Like with friends and stuff. Oh yeah, yeah,

558
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: because that's no good. Like you don't want to be

559
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 1: mad at a friend if you're waiting on them to

560
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: go do something fun and out. I mean, like, yeah,

561
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: we're gonna go over and play hacky sack in the park,

562
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 1: like you know, a concert or something that has a

563
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: time that you're now sort of running late for. I

564
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: would get upset, So I've what I've learned to do

565
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: is not just not get upset because I can't control

566
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: my emotions like that, but I have. There are certain

567
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 1: people in my life that are always late, and I

568
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,959
Speaker 1: just started telling them thirty minutes early. Smart that's all

569
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:57,719
Speaker 1: you got it. That's the I'm not even gonna call

570
00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: it a hack. That's just smart living.

571
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 2: No, that'stepulation, but smart manipulation, and I think justified to

572
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 2: people are begging for it. We're both punctual, definitely, and

573
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 2: I get very stressed out too. Especially, I've really had

574
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 2: to kind of get more laid back about making it

575
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 2: to the airport because Uman's like, let's just get there

576
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 2: two minutes before they close the door, so we don't

577
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 2: we don't have to spend much time.

578
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 3: On the airport. In theory.

579
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 2: I love that, but that's not no, I can't. So

580
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 2: I used to be like a like, let's leave maybe

581
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 2: more than two hours before our flight.

582
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 3: To get to the airport.

583
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 2: And now I'm like, okay, I can conceivably leave like

584
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 2: maybe eighty minutes, ninety minutes before something like that, maybe

585
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 2: an hour, depending on how like Lucy Goosey, I'm feeling.

586
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: I like to be early for flights just because I can.

587
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:50,479
Speaker 1: I just don't want to be stressed out at all,

588
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: So I like to be pretty early.

589
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 3: Okay, so fair enough.

590
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:58,479
Speaker 2: Punctuality very important. Another one is eye contact. That's another

591
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 2: universal one, but it's not in a necessarily the same

592
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 2: around the world, and in fact it's quite the opposite

593
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 2: from place to place. In America the United States, you

594
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 2: want to hold some sort of eye contact, there's a

595
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 2: certain amount and you have to This just takes a

596
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 2: lot of practice. You can very easily trep into like

597
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 2: crazy looking territory or creepy if you overdo it. But

598
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 2: if you underdo it, you seem untrustworthy and shady.

599
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 3: So you have to do just the.

600
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 2: Right amount of eye contact and you can look away

601
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 2: and then you look back again, depending on how long

602
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 2: the conversation is. Apparently in the UK you just don't

603
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 2: really make much eye contact at all during a conversation.

604
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. What I found works for me is to try

605
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: and not think about it, because once that happens, I'm done.

606
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah sure.

607
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: Like in conversation with someone out to know, I try

608
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: to be like, yeah, just have a normal conversation. You

609
00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: kind of look at someone's face in general, look them

610
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: in the eyes, to the way a little bit, touch

611
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: their cheek here and there if they say it's okay.

612
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 1: But once it gets into my head, if it's a

613
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 1: nervy situation and I'm like am I making an eye contact?

614
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: And am I making too much? Then I'm just done.

615
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 3: For it totally, especially if you like look away seven.

616
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 1: Look back and they're like, why are you counting? There's

617
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 1: there may be at least a short stuff into eye contact,

618
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: because there's a lot more to just besides you know,

619
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: being rude or not being rude, like the science of

620
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 1: eye contact and what it means and the brain signals

621
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 1: that are being received and stuff like that. So yeah,

622
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, there may be something there.

623
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,240
Speaker 3: They say the eyes are the window to the face.

624
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: Quickly on punctuality. Did every tell you my Chiquill o'neial

625
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 1: photo shoot story?

626
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 2: I probably have, yes, but let's hear it again because

627
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 2: it's been a while.

628
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 1: Well, and I don't know if this is the angle

629
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 1: that I even mentioned last time. But I was a

630
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: on a job. It was a still photo shoot with

631
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 1: Shaquille O'Neil on a beach in LA and he was

632
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 1: supposed to get there at He was supposed to get

633
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: there at like three so we could shoot him out

634
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: at sunset on a beautiful beach at five. And Shaq

635
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: showed up at like noon and said, I'm leaving it

636
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,760
Speaker 1: too because I got to go get my daughter from school.

637
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 1: And if you've never worked in film shoots and TV

638
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 1: and movie shoots and stuff like, you don't like the

639
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 1: schedules are very almost military like, and how rigid they are,

640
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 1: and you don't just say, by the way, I'm going

641
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: to completely change the timeframe here, but you can if

642
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: you're Shaquille O'Neil.

643
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you look closely, there is not a

644
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 2: single General Insurance commercial that was shot around sunset.

645
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,439
Speaker 1: Here's the thing, though, I don't want it. He wasn't

646
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,800
Speaker 1: rude about it. He was very nice. He wanted to

647
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 1: get his daughter from school, and everyone shifted their day

648
00:35:58,200 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: and it worked out great and we had a good time.

649
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:00,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, you gotta be.

650
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 2: Careful, Chuck, because he lives here in Atlanta. You might

651
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:03,800
Speaker 2: bump into him like a Papa John.

652
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 1: There, you remember me? How was that, p U?

653
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.

654
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:12,760
Speaker 2: So there's some other questions about manners, like it's really fun. Actually,

655
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 2: we found a great article on trip Advisor.

656
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 3: Written.

657
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 2: Clearly by somebody who's not American born or US born,

658
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 2: but who has a pretty good idea of what goes

659
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 2: on here. So it's really neat to see us here

660
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 2: in America viewed externally and like our mannerisms are habits.

661
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 2: That kind of stuff explain to somebody who's coming to

662
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,760
Speaker 2: the United States. So if you're want a trip Advisor

663
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 2: and you go into United States travel articles, look for

664
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 2: polite manners. And it is exhaustive and extensive and very

665
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 2: insightful actually, but it's it's pretty interesting to just kind

666
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 2: of see us through that lens.

667
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 1: You know, oh totally. You sent this to me. It

668
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,399
Speaker 1: was a lot of fun to look through, and we

669
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 1: were kind of trading on text like the ones we

670
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 1: thought were funny, and we both agreed under general decorum

671
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 1: this passage curse words should be avoided around children at

672
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: all times. Some teens will curse in the streets, however,

673
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: try not to confront them about it's right.

674
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 2: So there's a lot of people who kind of argue

675
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 2: that manners are dead, and you can make an argument

676
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 2: that yes, traditional manners are dead. Like knowing what fork

677
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 2: has used for what course of the meal. It's very

678
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 2: vanishingly understood these days. Or keeping your elbows off the table,

679
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 2: which apparently was initiated to prevent other people from taking

680
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 2: your like the posture you have which allows you to

681
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 2: lunch across the table at somebody as hostile. That's what

682
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 2: I've seen that it prevented people back when they were

683
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 2: much bigger lunkheads in general, from fighting one another. You

684
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 2: just kept your elbows off the table, and it's much

685
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 2: less aggressive if you've if.

686
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 3: You try them both.

687
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 2: The whole idea of not putting your elbows on the

688
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 2: table is an inherited piece of etiquette that frankly is outdated.

689
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:09,840
Speaker 2: That's my take on it. If you don't put your

690
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 2: elbows on the table because you have manners, that's fine too.

691
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 2: But the point is there are customs and manners and

692
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 2: etiquette that we've gone through. They're just kind of they

693
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 2: made their point at the time, they were useful, and

694
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 2: now they're not so useful anymore. That doesn't mean that

695
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 2: manners and etiquette in general have gone away, just that

696
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 2: they've evolved, and now we have all sorts of new

697
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 2: manners in etiquette that are thrilling for people alive in

698
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 2: the twenty first century.

699
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 3: I'm thrilled by them.

700
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 1: At least. Another big one is smoking. I looked up

701
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: the most recent stat I could find, and here in

702
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,240
Speaker 1: the United States, about eleven percent of people still smoke.

703
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 1: And it's I think considered very rude these days to

704
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 1: just light up a cigarette, even if you're outside sometimes

705
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 1: like really close to a bunch of people.

706
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 2: I find it rude even if you're nowhere near a

707
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,240
Speaker 2: bunch of people, because those that smoke carries so well

708
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,399
Speaker 2: it does that that yes, you to me, I think

709
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 2: we've reached the point where you're allowed to smoke in

710
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 2: your own house, in your own car.

711
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: But it didn't use. I mean, we are, We're all

712
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,439
Speaker 1: part of this era. You and I where not even

713
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: so long ago it was fine to smoke anywhere in

714
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: front of anyone.

715
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 2: I smoked on an airplane once, like it was it was,

716
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 2: you know, that was definitely within my lifetime.

717
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,240
Speaker 1: I bet there were some French bereguys smoking there.

718
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 2: We were holding that smoking section down, and smoking section

719
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 2: was the last three roads. There was nothing, no barrier,

720
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,959
Speaker 2: anything like that. So you're just smoking up the back

721
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 2: of the plane. It was such a dumb idea.

722
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was. I was curious because I wondered how

723
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 1: the rest of the world was doing with smoking, And

724
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,800
Speaker 1: so I looked up countries who smoke the most. Yeah,

725
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: and I can't remember, uh which one was number one,

726
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 1: but it was it was like almost fit fifty percent

727
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 1: of the people. They're still smoked. Well, this is a

728
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: different one I'm looking at now, says China. But oh,

729
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: here we go, it's number one. N A U r U.

730
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 1: Now RU where is that?

731
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 3: I'm not sure?

732
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 1: And Kirabati are both at fifty two percent. There's only

733
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 1: twelve thousand people that live in Nauru, so I'm gonna

734
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: have to look up where that is. But that is,

735
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know if there used to be

736
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: twenty four thousand people in half of them right passed

737
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: from lung cancer or what.

738
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. One of the other

739
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 2: things about the evolution of etiquette in manners is just

740
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,800
Speaker 2: the snapshot that it provides the time we live in today,

741
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:50,879
Speaker 2: and you can get a really good picture of that.

742
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 2: The cut ran an article. I think it's like one

743
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 2: hundred and forty rules of etiquette, and a lot of

744
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 2: them make a lot of sense. A lot of them

745
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 2: like really kind of tap into the culture that we

746
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 2: live in now. Like my favorite one was after seventy

747
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 2: two hours, you have amnesty from mentioning how long it

748
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 2: took you to respond to a text, So after that

749
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 2: you can just respond to the text like you're responding

750
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,919
Speaker 2: to it like no time has passed before seventy two hours.

751
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,399
Speaker 2: You have to say, sorry, this took me so long,

752
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 2: And it's true. It totally makes sense, and I find

753
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 2: it very mannerly that that just I mean, it just

754
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 2: makes sense to me. But some whole things like that.

755
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 1: So if you don't answer a text after let's say

756
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 1: you wait a whole week, Yes, you don't have to say,

757
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 1: oh man, I'm sorry, this thing got buried.

758
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 3: No, you do not.

759
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:39,839
Speaker 2: And as a matter of fact, I've kind of been

760
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 2: intuitively picked that up because I've got one brewin with

761
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 2: my friend Matt that is easily a week and a

762
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 2: half old. Yeah, and I've just learned not to call

763
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,240
Speaker 2: it out because it makes it way worse.

764
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 3: They're well aware that.

765
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 2: It's been a week and a half and it seems

766
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 2: insincere to be like, oh sorry, it took me a

767
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 2: week and a half to get back to you. It's

768
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 2: this is when I had time to like give this thought,

769
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 2: this attention, and I'm getting back to you now. It

770
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 2: just makes sense to me as a as a delayed texter.

771
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:14,360
Speaker 1: What else you got anything else in there?

772
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 2: There were there were so many No, I mean, there's

773
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 2: there's stuff all over about tipping, about work culture, just

774
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 2: you know, going out to bars, dating, ghosting people, Like

775
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 2: it's okay to ghost somebody, Uh, if you've only been

776
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 2: on one date and you didn't follow up with a

777
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 2: lot of texting or emails or any of your calls.

778
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:37,879
Speaker 2: You can just ghost them and feel fine about it.

779
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 2: But if you did kind of like, you know, make

780
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 2: it seem like you're a little more interested and then

781
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 2: ghost them, that's kind of mean. And then never, they said,

782
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 2: never ghost somebody and then come back like later on

783
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 2: in life and ask them for a favor of any kind. Like,

784
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 2: once you go somebody, that's it.

785
00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 1: You're done interesting. You know, I will say that, like,

786
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: I'm not mister mister Manners, but I do believe in

787
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 1: being polite and like, you know, open the door for

788
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 1: people and stuff like that. But I think that, like, uh,

789
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 1: I think poor manners, like if I was on the

790
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: dating scene or something, I think poor manners can be

791
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 1: a real red flag as just the overall sort of

792
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 1: kind of person someone.

793
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 3: Is, right.

794
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 2: And I think that's what Emily Post was helping people do,

795
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 2: was helping sincere people. She said, the three principles of

796
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 2: etiquette of consideration, respect and honesty. Yeah, and so she

797
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 2: was saying, if you are those three things, if you're considerate, respectful,

798
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 2: and honest, here's what you need to do to present

799
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 2: that in the best possible light to people. To let

800
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 2: people see how how great you are. This is just

801
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 2: some easy rules for you to follow that that you know,

802
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 2: so that you don't seem like a bore when you're

803
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 2: out on a date, because you're not a boer. You're

804
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 2: a considerate, respectful, honest person who deserves love.

805
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're also making other people feel comfortable and

806
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 1: at ease, and those are things we should strive to do.

807
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 3: Agreed Chuck.

808
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 2: Well, since I agreed with Chuck and he chuckled a

809
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 2: little bit because of something that he and I and

810
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,479
Speaker 2: Jerry know about. How that means it's time for listener mail.

811
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 1: All right, I'm going to call this one boyd. It's

812
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 1: so old I don't even remember what to call it.

813
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 1: It has been in the old folder for a while.

814
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 1: Hey guys, long time first time as callers used to

815
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 1: Sam Larry King just got done listening to the episode

816
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 1: on International Debt Forgiveness. Oh it was not that old,

817
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: and has promised it was very interesting and totally day ruining.

818
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 1: I wanted to mention something I'll understandably had to sort

819
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 1: of YadA YadA on the episode for Concision, and that

820
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 1: is the fact that the rest of Europe simply allowed

821
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 1: Leopold the Second monarch of a neutral country to set

822
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 1: up his own personal colony in Africa. While this is

823
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:58,320
Speaker 1: true on its face, Sebastian Major's excellent three part story

824
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 1: on the Free State of Congo Our Fake History episodes

825
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: eighty eighty one eighty two elucidates how that came to be.

826
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 1: While he of course goes on to recount the atrocities

827
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 1: committed in the Belgian Congo and horrifying detail. The first

828
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 1: two episodes are the really interesting part where he describes

829
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 1: the most stunning and cynical whitewashing propaganda kind of campaign

830
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,319
Speaker 1: that painted Leopold the Second as the paragon of late

831
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 1: nineteenth century abolitionist moral rectitude, culminating in the formation of

832
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 1: a charity called the International African Association, which all created

833
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 1: of an ear beneficent stewardship that allowed unchecked exploitation of

834
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 1: the land and people. That's quite a sentence.

835
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 3: That was one sentence.

836
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, wow, fantastic, And all of this is sounding

837
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 2: like really familiar. I was like, yeah, I ran across

838
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 2: all this in my research and I just realized now

839
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:51,800
Speaker 2: that this is from reading this email before.

840
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 3: That's why it sounds familiar.

841
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,280
Speaker 1: It's basically like if the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation

842
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: turned out to be a front for harvesting adrenochrome from children.

843
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 3: Nice reuff.

844
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,320
Speaker 1: The story will put you in a fetal position for hours,

845
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 1: though Sebastian Major's charming Canadian accent makes it somewhat more tolerable.

846
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 1: Thanks guys, always great to listen to the show, and

847
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: that is from John.

848
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 2: Thanks John, fantastic email. Thanks for pointing that out and

849
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 2: yes we had to YadA YadA that and also in

850
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 2: addition to Sebastian Major's probably mentioned it at the time,

851
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 2: but behind the Bastards, did I think a couple parts

852
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 2: on King Leopold too?

853
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 1: Great show from our very own network.

854
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 2: Well, if you want to get in touch of us

855
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,839
Speaker 2: with more info, like John, did we love that kind

856
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 2: of thing, you can wrap it up, spank it on

857
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 2: the bottom, and send it off to Stuff podcast at

858
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio dot com.

859
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

860
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:55,359
Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

861
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.