Speaker 1: Hey, Dina, the Wetterburn meteorite. Have you heard of it?
Speaker 1: I didn't even know meteorites had names. Well, I stumbled
Speaker 1: across an article about it the other day. So in
Speaker 1: outside the town of Wetterburn in Victoria, Australia, this guy
Speaker 1: finds an apple sized piece of metal by the side
Speaker 1: of the road. He takes it to the Museum of Victoria,
Speaker 1: where it's determined to be a meteorite, and pieces of
Speaker 1: this thing were sliced off and sent to scientists around
Speaker 1: the world for analysis. The meteorite is mostly iron and nickel,
Speaker 1: indicating that it was likely part of the core of
Speaker 1: a doomed planet that got smashed by some other planet
Speaker 1: or moon or asteroid, and after billions of years in
Speaker 1: the asteroid belt, it made its way to Australia. So
Speaker 1: why was it in the news? Well, good question. So
Speaker 1: some research at cal Tech recently found that it contains
Speaker 1: a mineral not previously found in nature FE five C two,
Speaker 1: a kind of iron carbide. So apparently there are five
Speaker 1: hundred to six hundred thousand minerals discovered or created in
Speaker 1: the lab, but less than six thousand or found in nature.
Speaker 1: This is a new one and only when a mineral
Speaker 1: is found in nature, did they get to name it?
Speaker 1: So they got to name this one, and it's called
Speaker 1: ed Scotite after this cosmo chemist. Yes, that's a thing
Speaker 1: at the University of Hawaii named ed Scott So ed Scottite.
Speaker 1: Very cool. Yeah right, that was my first thought too.
Speaker 1: But what could this thing be used for? What do
Speaker 1: you think? Batteries? Batteries? Sure, I don't know about that,
Speaker 1: but you know, it turns out that nothing really as
Speaker 1: far as I can tell. But it is a byproduct
Speaker 1: of iron smelting. So it is. It exists out there
Speaker 1: in the world, but it's just not in nature except
Speaker 1: in this little meteorite. Okay, So now that we're all
Speaker 1: thinking about metals, let's get into today's topic. Metals that
Speaker 1: can be used for stuff. I don't know about you, Danta,
Speaker 1: but I can't really see a way around metals demand.
Speaker 1: It seems like we always need them. That may be
Speaker 1: true in a high carbon or low carbon economy. There
Speaker 1: is a need for metals cobalt, lithium, nickel for batteries,
Speaker 1: rare earths for all kinds of electronics, steel for wind
Speaker 1: turbines and solar panels, and the list goes on. Today,
Speaker 1: we'll be talking with Sophie lou who leads b enufs
Speaker 1: medals analysis and will focus on the battery metals. We'll
Speaker 1: get into the supply and demand for metals used in
Speaker 1: battery production and some of the very real challenges in
Speaker 1: getting the stuff out of the ground. Our conversation is
Speaker 1: based on a report titled two h nineteen Battery Metals Outlook,
Speaker 1: Demand Realities. B NF users can get this report on
Speaker 1: BNF dot com, the BNF mobile app, or on the
Speaker 1: Bloomberg terminal at b NF go. Please note that BNF
Speaker 1: does not provide investment or strategy advice, and you can
Speaker 1: hear our full disclaimer at the end of the show.
Speaker 1: I'm Dana Perkins and I'm Mark Taylor and you're listening
Speaker 1: to Switch on the b NF podcast. Hi, Sophie, thank
Speaker 1: you for joining us today. Good to be here. So
Speaker 1: this market outlook is about the battery metals. What are
Speaker 1: the main battery medals we should be worried about? Are
Speaker 1: concerned with? Sure um? In our outlook we focus primarily
Speaker 1: on lithium, cobalt and nickel um and when we do
Speaker 1: the supply and demand forecast where these big three. We
Speaker 1: do focus on the battery grade material that has produced
Speaker 1: for these three commodities. We also do look a little
Speaker 1: bit as some of the other medals that go into
Speaker 1: lithium ion batteries, so this would include manganese, graphite, copper, aluminum, um,
Speaker 1: but in general though the big three are lithium, cobalt,
Speaker 1: and nickel. This report is half yearly, But how far
Speaker 1: out do we look regarding the sub blind demand once
Speaker 1: UM our demand forecast goes out to and then our
Speaker 1: supply forecast goes out to at a D risk level,
Speaker 1: we do have a view out to twenty thirty, but
Speaker 1: we normally don't like to take a de wrist view
Speaker 1: on each of the assets UH after because of the
Speaker 1: lack of information. So it's mostly a short to medium
Speaker 1: term outlook. It's basically from now until in the nearer
Speaker 1: term what's going to be in short supply UH in
Speaker 1: the near term, So right now, it doesn't look like
Speaker 1: we have any major shortages pendent pending UM for any
Speaker 1: of the battery materials, So lithium, whether it be hydroxide
Speaker 1: or carbonate, are roughly in balance for twenty nine team
Speaker 1: UM and then UH cobalt is actually a little bit oversupplied,
Speaker 1: and then nickel, specifically nickel sulfate that goes into batteries
Speaker 1: is currently, according to our views, still supplied. But you
Speaker 1: go a little bit further out to about three and
Speaker 1: that's really when we start experiencing some potential shortages in
Speaker 1: um um, cobalt, and nickel, and then liftingum hydroxide UM
Speaker 1: maybe even a little bit earlier because of the potential
Speaker 1: bottleneck in conversion capacity. What's the reason for the shortage
Speaker 1: and cobalt supply UM The shortage and cobalt supply really
Speaker 1: has more to do with the fact that sort of
Speaker 1: insecurity and instability in the Congo has impacted the DRC.
Speaker 1: Excuse me, the Democratic Republic Congo has sort of impacted
Speaker 1: UM the larger miners um development plans for new capacity
Speaker 1: expansion inside of that market and has actually caused caused
Speaker 1: them to furlough some existing capacity in preparation for sort
Speaker 1: of reassessing because there they have to install the new
Speaker 1: processing equipment as well as they have to sort of
Speaker 1: reassess the impact of the new UH mining code that
Speaker 1: came into effect last year in the Congo and how
Speaker 1: that impacts the economics of the mining for cobalt in
Speaker 1: that market, particularly since cobalt prices have come down quite
Speaker 1: a bit. That's like, that's really the bottleneck going into
Speaker 1: four but in the nearer nearer term, so even just
Speaker 1: like in the next year or so, we could even
Speaker 1: potentially experience a UM, a sudden shortfall in the cobalt market.
Speaker 1: If anything UM these stabilizing happens in that specific country,
Speaker 1: and UM that may cause or disrupt may cause disruptions
Speaker 1: to the outflow of cobalt from that market. Uh no, no,
Speaker 1: this is not trade. This is basically just the congo
Speaker 1: UM experiencing political instability. Because so they just got a
Speaker 1: new president that just came in January. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of UM. There's still he has not fully consolidated his power.
Speaker 1: There's still a lot of question as to whether or
Speaker 1: not his incumbent retains a decent amount of control over
Speaker 1: the market. In the last week or so, we've been
Speaker 1: hearing news about you know, the UM, the national government
Speaker 1: sending in troops to quote unquote protect UM, the mining
Speaker 1: assets UM and to essentially push away artisanal miners, so
Speaker 1: small scale miners from UM mining along the outskirts of
Speaker 1: the big minds for Glencore and for chinamally and for
Speaker 1: other companies. To clarifying questions, I think it just touched
Speaker 1: on the first one is is DRC the main source
Speaker 1: of co op in the world? And to who are
Speaker 1: the majors that you talked about in that market? You
Speaker 1: mentioned Glencore and and an others. Are there others? Yes?
Speaker 1: Um so, over seventy of the cobalt resource that is
Speaker 1: mined um is mine from from the congo. Um so
Speaker 1: seventy percent of the refined sorry, the seventy percent of
Speaker 1: the bind resource comes from the congo. And then within
Speaker 1: the congo, the biggest market shareholders really are Chinnamali, Glencore,
Speaker 1: Eurasian Resources Group UM y r G. I think they
Speaker 1: changed their name now, and UM there's a few other
Speaker 1: companies kind of throughout that also owned things like KEMAF
Speaker 1: and others. UM. The Chinese companies, if you agree with them,
Speaker 1: altogether own something close to a half if not more,
Speaker 1: of the cobalt resource inside of the congo, and then
Speaker 1: their dominance of the market share of cobalt increases significantly
Speaker 1: when you then go to the next up, which is
Speaker 1: the refinery. So cobal is exported from Congo and a
Speaker 1: lot of it is exported back into China, where many
Speaker 1: of the Chinese companies, particularly Hawaio China, Hawaio UM and
Speaker 1: then Um Dean Chron and a few other companies, they
Speaker 1: are some of the biggest refineries refiners of cobalt in
Speaker 1: the world. While we're talking about China, I'm thinking, you know,
Speaker 1: I've read here in your note that of the batteries
Speaker 1: in the world are actually manufactured in China. And then
Speaker 1: I think about the trade boards that are going on
Speaker 1: right now between the US and China. Is that going
Speaker 1: to pose a problem to the battery market in the US? UM,
Speaker 1: I don't think so. So we looked at a little
Speaker 1: bit at the the trade in critical minerals and materials
Speaker 1: that go into the battery supply chain between the U
Speaker 1: s and China, and actually the direct trade and raw
Speaker 1: materials is relatively low. There are a few things that
Speaker 1: might be potentially subject to higher tariffs, but um, at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, there's actually not as much
Speaker 1: trade in the material supply chain between the two countries.
Speaker 1: Usually material that is mined in a third country moved
Speaker 1: to China to be refined is then sold to a
Speaker 1: third country that is then put into a battery component
Speaker 1: which is then potentially sold to the U. S so
Speaker 1: usually their trade partners in UM, Japan and possibly even
Speaker 1: Europe where that happens the direct trade of batteries between
Speaker 1: China and the US. I think one thing we can't
Speaker 1: forget is that UM okay, so overt of the battery
Speaker 1: supply chain is in China. That is true, right, and
Speaker 1: the battery manufacturing capacity is also over in China, But
Speaker 1: overt of battery demand will also happen in China, and
Speaker 1: so much of the batteries that are being made in
Speaker 1: China are likely to be deployed in and use applications
Speaker 1: in China. I'm not saying that they might not export
Speaker 1: some of it. Some of it might get exported, particularly
Speaker 1: to their Asia partners UM, but they're not necessarily reliant
Speaker 1: on the US to export their batteries. Changing tracks a
Speaker 1: little bit, looking at copper, one of the things you
Speaker 1: note is that recycling copper actually uses eight less energy
Speaker 1: than mining it. Like, what what companies are actually doing this?
Speaker 1: This is the big mining companies that are actually diversifying
Speaker 1: or these complete new players and a potential opportunity for
Speaker 1: a more fragmented market. They're not the big miners actually,
Speaker 1: so the big miners usually UM don't specialize in the
Speaker 1: recycling process. Oftentimes, the companies that are most involved in
Speaker 1: recycling of metals, including copper, but also including many other things. Uh,
Speaker 1: they're usually these specialized hydro metallurgical firms that are actually
Speaker 1: doing the refighting. So again Chinese, Japanese and creating companies
Speaker 1: and then also some companies in Europe are very specialized
Speaker 1: in this in this process and they work more like
Speaker 1: chemicals than they do UM in what we traditionally think
Speaker 1: of as as metals mining UM. And these are the
Speaker 1: companies that have the most opportunity to gain in a
Speaker 1: world where increasingly recycling and scrap becomes a bigger part
Speaker 1: of the overall supply chain. We understand that batteries are
Speaker 1: increased singly relying upon nickel in their composition and decreasing
Speaker 1: the amount of cobalt they're actually using. Is this driven
Speaker 1: by human rights and and wanting to make that pivot
Speaker 1: or is there some other reason that the battery compositions
Speaker 1: are changing so dramatically. It's two different reasons basically, but
Speaker 1: they're interrelated. So UM the desire or move towards higher
Speaker 1: nickel catholic chemistries is mostly UM the need to drive
Speaker 1: higher energy density in the battery packs, and higher nickel
Speaker 1: catholic chemistries generally have been are are moving in that direction.
Speaker 1: But the problem is UM in the traditional designs of
Speaker 1: higher nickel catholic chemistries, you almost always need cobalt as
Speaker 1: a part of that. So, for instance, um Tesla's n
Speaker 1: CIA batteries require cobalt, and many of the battery makers
Speaker 1: and the automakers don't. They're not comfortable with having that
Speaker 1: much exposure to cobalt in their supply chains because cobalt
Speaker 1: is risky, not just from a reputational issue of human rights,
Speaker 1: but also just because UM. The political instability in the
Speaker 1: market that it comes from does mean that there can
Speaker 1: be occasional disruptions to the supply chain question on that.
Speaker 1: I used to be in the industry, my cro industry,
Speaker 1: I don't know what you'd call it, of geothermal, and
Speaker 1: I had a friend in the industry who actually owned
Speaker 1: a cobalt mine or cobalt outfit in Idaho, and it
Speaker 1: was called US Cobalt. Yeah, then it bought out by
Speaker 1: um first cobalt, Now I think have they? I think so, yeah,
Speaker 1: I had a whole like Iron Creek or something it's called. Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: my question on that is, I mean, is DRC the
Speaker 1: only option for cobalt mining or are their domestic you know,
Speaker 1: US supplies or supplies elsewhere that could be. It's a
Speaker 1: really good question actually, so um, like I said our
Speaker 1: earlier seventy of the mind, cobalt is mine in the DRC, right,
Speaker 1: but is mine outside the call the d r C.
Speaker 1: And right now the main sources of it are essentially
Speaker 1: Cuba um Morocco. Yeah, Morocco um so bo Azer is
Speaker 1: one of the oldest operating pure cobalt mines in the world. Um.
Speaker 1: And then cobalt is also produced as a byproduct um
Speaker 1: of nickel um uh production in some places in Southeast
Speaker 1: Asia as well as Russia. So there is on Indonesia, okay, right,
Speaker 1: So there are some cobalt production outside of the d
Speaker 1: r C. And there's a lot of interest amongst junior
Speaker 1: and mid sized miners to explore for pure cobalt plays
Speaker 1: um outside of the DRC, because they believe there might
Speaker 1: be a potential premium in terms of the supply chain,
Speaker 1: supply chain premium value for non DRC cobalt, and we
Speaker 1: see this plane out a little bit right. So you
Speaker 1: have companies like um core UM promising that they're definitely
Speaker 1: gonna have only non DRC cobalt and then therefore buying
Speaker 1: cobalt only from Glencore's production mirror Murine in Australia as
Speaker 1: well as possibly the RMAPU asset in Morocco UM and
Speaker 1: then UM. But the problem is of every single one
Speaker 1: of the major battery manufacturers or automakers like BMW all
Speaker 1: want to buy non DRC cobalt, there's not in a
Speaker 1: cobalt in the world to do that. UM. The problem
Speaker 1: is UM cobalt prices right now are not quite high
Speaker 1: enough to really sustain the independent discovery, exploration and development
Speaker 1: of a standalone cobalt asset. You'd have to have a
Speaker 1: really insanely high concentration to be able to do that.
Speaker 1: In terms of the or grade UM and is that
Speaker 1: what's unique about the cobalt and DRC UM. So the
Speaker 1: couple in DRC is actually produced as a byproduc of
Speaker 1: copper um, and so the DRC actually makes more money
Speaker 1: from copper than it does from cobalt, but cobalt it
Speaker 1: was really hot for a little while because or somewhere
Speaker 1: like that, because the cobalt doesn't occur in high volumes
Speaker 1: the way that in Peru. I actually, for those listening,
Speaker 1: I'm just asking because Prue has a lot of copper. Yes,
Speaker 1: Peru has a lot of copper, but cobalt doesn't always
Speaker 1: just occur with copper. Um and it doesn't always it's
Speaker 1: not so they're not inclusive or like that. It's not
Speaker 1: a requirement to necessarily occur with copper. Sometimes occurs with nickel.
Speaker 1: It's like all rock in the earth. It kind of
Speaker 1: occurs in varying degrees. But um, the DRC does happen
Speaker 1: to be one of the best deposits in the world
Speaker 1: for both copper and cobalt in terms of the quality
Speaker 1: of the intensity of the grade um. Yeah, so it's
Speaker 1: it's very rare to develop a pure standalone cobalt asset. Um.
Speaker 1: Most cobalt assets that are producing now are bioproducts of
Speaker 1: either copper or nickel. Bo as you're in Morocco is
Speaker 1: the own is. The only large scale, commercially producing pure
Speaker 1: cobalt play in the world is it bright blue? It's yeah, cobalt,
Speaker 1: I mean, is the mind bright blue? Oh No, I don't,
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know, I don't know. I have
Speaker 1: to go back and look at it, look at it physically.
Speaker 1: That given that Lee's lithium ion batteries are being used
Speaker 1: in cars and power storage and then additionally for consumer
Speaker 1: electronics that we all consume, looks like there's a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff that is actually going to rely on these batteries.
Speaker 1: Do you foresee the material prices, the metal prices going
Speaker 1: way up as this demand looks like it just almost
Speaker 1: has a limitless appetite. I think a lot of companies
Speaker 1: that are investing into new assets are betting that the
Speaker 1: prices of these commodities will come back up. We've seen
Speaker 1: short term spikes, right, So, lithium went through a pretty
Speaker 1: high period UM just a year ago. Cobalt also just
Speaker 1: a year ago, it was quite high that came back
Speaker 1: down about really like a ten months ago. UM Nicole
Speaker 1: is experiencing a bit of a search now. Also on
Speaker 1: the EV thesis, we're basically seeing this kind of like
Speaker 1: cascade effect where basically every time somebody who likes EV
Speaker 1: batteries discovers a new metal, they all pour their money
Speaker 1: into it, and then it surges, and then it comes
Speaker 1: back down when they realize once everybody has enough information
Speaker 1: about supply and demand. So um, I feel like in
Speaker 1: the metals industry, and this is the thing that everybody
Speaker 1: sort of talks about. There's no such thing as a
Speaker 1: true shortage. Like we didn't stop using bronze because we
Speaker 1: ran out of bronze, right like, and this is the
Speaker 1: same thing. We didn't stop using oil because you ran
Speaker 1: out of oil. Um. There's no such thing as like
Speaker 1: a true scarcity in the sense that there isn't enough
Speaker 1: of the resource. It's always just about is the price
Speaker 1: high enough to support the development of the next incremental
Speaker 1: um tonnage that needs to come into the market to
Speaker 1: support the future demand um. The market generally has proven
Speaker 1: to be pretty efficient in terms of pricing signals to
Speaker 1: the miners um to sort of to the resource level
Speaker 1: to basically tell everybody you need to bring this much
Speaker 1: more material up to the market to supply future demand.
Speaker 1: In the lithium market. There's some debate about whether or
Speaker 1: not this is actually true, being because a lot of
Speaker 1: producers in the market are saying that the lithium price
Speaker 1: is too low to support a lot of the new
Speaker 1: UM material that needs to come into the market to
Speaker 1: support the future demand UM. And our view is it
Speaker 1: can it can vary like around ten thousand per ton,
Speaker 1: I think is actually still a pretty god support price UM.
Speaker 1: But it does. It does kind of UM raise the
Speaker 1: question of there's a lot of assets that are in
Speaker 1: the supply curve right now who have not finished fundraising
Speaker 1: and UM their total costs when you include both the
Speaker 1: mining as well as the conversion capacity costs could potentially
Speaker 1: be is a little higher than what the current UM
Speaker 1: prices UM, and so there's there's a question of like, well,
Speaker 1: maybe the prices need to come back up in order
Speaker 1: to support it. But regardless, Actually, we have a battery
Speaker 1: metals UM commodity price sensitivity tool that we've built and
Speaker 1: UM uh you know, our users can explore that tool
Speaker 1: to sort of see what the impact would be. But
Speaker 1: we looked at it and it was like, you know,
Speaker 1: prices for lithium cobalt nickel can be pretty much double
Speaker 1: UM and even even in some cases triple and the
Speaker 1: overall impact on the overall cost of the battery pack
Speaker 1: itself is you know, something to like three to five
Speaker 1: percent maybe in terms of the fluctuation. Well, um, so
Speaker 1: the so overall, the battery packs are also becoming more
Speaker 1: efficient about how they use materials. So the energy density
Speaker 1: is improving, but the size of the battery pack is
Speaker 1: not increasing necessarily, So you're you're being able to find
Speaker 1: new chemistries where you're exponentially increasing the energy density and
Speaker 1: performance of the battery not necessarily having to also exponentially
Speaker 1: increase the use of the usage of your battery, So
Speaker 1: you're per per ton of material results of you know,
Speaker 1: battery performance is also improving. Yeah, you're getting more out
Speaker 1: of it. So what you're telling me is that there
Speaker 1: is enough supply to go around, and there's enough of
Speaker 1: this in the earth, but it's an issue of getting
Speaker 1: it out. We've established with the issue of the congo
Speaker 1: that you've got a lot of it in one location
Speaker 1: that can prove to be a problem depending upon who's
Speaker 1: sitting on top of it. Some of the other metals,
Speaker 1: are they in difficult locations? Are some of them under
Speaker 1: rainforests or under major cities and things that are going
Speaker 1: to make it difficult. Potentially, are we going to reach
Speaker 1: a peak metals for some of the metals that go
Speaker 1: into the battery metal space. UM No, I don't think
Speaker 1: so right now. There's there are definitely environmental damages that
Speaker 1: might occur though, so this is actually a huge issue
Speaker 1: for a lithium UM. So Lithium is primarily produced from
Speaker 1: two types of deposits right now. Um either spodymin which
Speaker 1: is hard rock lithium um and a lot of that
Speaker 1: is coming from Australia, or Brian, which is like salt
Speaker 1: water essentially um lithium the brine um is it we
Speaker 1: used to be traditionally the majority of lithium produced UM
Speaker 1: actually now shifting more towards boymin Um. Brian is primarily
Speaker 1: located in the solars of Latin America on like the
Speaker 1: high altitude between It's basically the lithium triangle between Argentina
Speaker 1: Um Bolivia and Chili and UM. Those deserts, those like
Speaker 1: high altitude desserts, have an extreme scarcity of water. Now
Speaker 1: UM solars, these salty brines, these lithium brine deposits. The
Speaker 1: producers they they obtain what they call pumping rights um
Speaker 1: to pump the salt water from this brine deposit um
Speaker 1: into surface level ponds which are then go through various
Speaker 1: levels evaporation or to turn be turned into a high
Speaker 1: enough lithium concentrate can then that can be shipped off
Speaker 1: to their plant to be converted into a lithium chemical
Speaker 1: used for batteries. So that's the process. UM. There's been
Speaker 1: a lot of controversy over how much water being pumped
Speaker 1: from these brines because even though the water in these
Speaker 1: brines are not drinkable, so these are not humans drinking
Speaker 1: water from these things, UM, they do still um have
Speaker 1: potential relationship to the overall water table of the region. Now,
Speaker 1: it's kind of there's a lot of I'm not going
Speaker 1: to say specifically which way we lean. We're actually writing
Speaker 1: an in depth research on this in second half of
Speaker 1: the year to look at how the lithium industry can
Speaker 1: reduce its water usage UM, but UM for for right now, though,
Speaker 1: there's controversy around this issue and UM Basically, although the
Speaker 1: lithium producers in the regions say that they're in compliance
Speaker 1: with the pumping rights that they were granted to them
Speaker 1: by the regulators of the region, activists in the regions
Speaker 1: say that the regulators don't actually understand how this entire
Speaker 1: ecosystem is interconnected, and believe that they have allocated pumping
Speaker 1: rights that are probably too high and will eventually destroy UM,
Speaker 1: these very delicate ecosystems. UM. There's some evidence to prove
Speaker 1: that it may already be the case. Right, So the
Speaker 1: UM salars are natural homes for flamingos and other endangered species,
Speaker 1: and UM the population has diminished and and are suffering.
Speaker 1: But there's debate as to whether or not the reason
Speaker 1: that's causing the factors causing that are because of lithium
Speaker 1: production specifically, or because UM water usage in the region
Speaker 1: is much heavier from copper um. And then also tourism
Speaker 1: actually uses a lot of water as well, So there's
Speaker 1: a lot of debate right now in that region. So
Speaker 1: this is an example of another environmental or resource level
Speaker 1: limitation on the future growth of these material supply chains.
Speaker 1: There was a bit of movement in two nine about
Speaker 1: doing the same type of thing in the Salton Sea
Speaker 1: area in California. Company called Symbol Mining as a startup
Speaker 1: that I think they were ahead of their time price wise, right,
Speaker 1: so the price just couldn't support lithium development at that time.
Speaker 1: I heard there was kind of a kicking again last
Speaker 1: year when the price kind of spiked, But is there
Speaker 1: any more movement there? In the US, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of interest, I think. So it's around Clayton Valley um
Speaker 1: UH in Nevada. There's there's definitely some interest in developing
Speaker 1: lithium assets inside of the US. There's also some look
Speaker 1: at California. UM. I think there's one small asset I
Speaker 1: gotta go back and look at the exact name that
Speaker 1: is producing some already, but not much. The majority of
Speaker 1: lithium that's being looked at in North America is actually
Speaker 1: in Canada. And then there's also a really interesting asset
Speaker 1: that that's going to be Spot, Yes, and Na Masca
Speaker 1: Lithium is looking at Spot. Mean, there's a few other
Speaker 1: juniors that are looking at it there. Um. And then
Speaker 1: in Mexico, Bakanara is looking at a clay acid, a
Speaker 1: lithium clay acid that seems pretty interesting as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I'd like to go back to the trade war
Speaker 1: a little bit actually, so earlier I think, um there's
Speaker 1: come there's oftentimes a misframing of the trade war question
Speaker 1: when it comes to the battery supply chain. Everybody's sort
Speaker 1: of frames. They're like, oh, I don't want to import
Speaker 1: batteries from China. UM. But it's not about importing the batteries.
Speaker 1: It's not even about importing physical product UM. And I
Speaker 1: think a lot of regulators need to think about it
Speaker 1: in this way, which is it's about security of the
Speaker 1: supply chain, and it's about whether or not a stakeholder
Speaker 1: like China, not necessarily only China, UM may exercise control
Speaker 1: over a large enough control over UM a certain part
Speaker 1: of the supply chain that it could become a bottleneck. So,
Speaker 1: for instance, I think a lot of the what informs
Speaker 1: the trade war now, especially when it comes to resources
Speaker 1: is UM. What happened to Japan with rare earths and
Speaker 1: China sort of quote unquote restricting the export of arth
Speaker 1: to Japan a few years. This was like ten years ago,
Speaker 1: and so Japan had a very hard lesson learned during
Speaker 1: that time period when price suspect and all of its
Speaker 1: producers faced legitimate bottlenecks either to their overall UM supply chain.
Speaker 1: And I think UM the US and many other UM
Speaker 1: cut regions in the world, including the EU, including Australia,
Speaker 1: including Canada, who are all moving in this direction of
Speaker 1: trying to UM, consolidate UH and improve their national strategies
Speaker 1: towards the battery supply chain. Are aware of this, and
Speaker 1: this is the security underlying security fear that drives a
Speaker 1: movement towards UM quote unquote trade war around battery supply chains.
Speaker 1: What's sad though, is that it's been framed in the
Speaker 1: context of a trade war when really it shouldn't be.
Speaker 1: It's not about restricting the flow of materials. It's about
Speaker 1: increasing the amount of the value add of that supply
Speaker 1: chain in your own market. And the reason why I
Speaker 1: I contact UM context that like that is there's actually
Speaker 1: a lot of private sector companies involved in the sector
Speaker 1: UM and just like their Japanese and creating counterparts, are
Speaker 1: happy to invest into Europe, into the US to build
Speaker 1: new assets. It's just like the solar industry UM. The
Speaker 1: solar industry, after they got tiribs put on them and
Speaker 1: they couldn't export PP modules to the US anymore, they
Speaker 1: went and build factories in other countries and then still
Speaker 1: we're exporting the PP modules UM and the same thing
Speaker 1: could happen to the battery industry. But we could save
Speaker 1: the battery industry a lot of pain that the solar
Speaker 1: industry had to go through, which was ten years of
Speaker 1: trade war before were not ten years maybe five years
Speaker 1: of trade war before everybody figured out that everybody was
Speaker 1: just hurting and that it was just you know, preventing
Speaker 1: people from from getting good product um and instead focusing
Speaker 1: on maybe diversifying the location and the ownership of the
Speaker 1: of the supply chain. It's not so, it's not just
Speaker 1: about always focusing on the physical like where this product
Speaker 1: is coming from kind of thing. Does that make sense
Speaker 1: at all? Yes, good, Sophie, thanks for joining us. Thanks
Speaker 1: for having me, It was really great. Bloombergin e F
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