WEBVTT - How rich countries can build cheap nuclear power again 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:04.440 Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati this week. Why the 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:21.560 West can't build nuclear electricity demand is booming, and it's 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:25.040 not just because of AI. We are electrifying a lot 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:28.680 of things, from cars to heating to heavy industry, and 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:31.280 that's got a lot of people thinking where will all 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:34.120 this electricity come from? And how can we make sure 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:38.960 it's available whenever it's needed. One of the technologies that 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:43.080 people are turning to or turning back to, is nuclear. 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:46.640 In fact, the demand is so great that in the US, 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:51.000 previously decommissioned nuclear reactors are being turned back on. Microsoft 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:54.280 last year signed a sixteen billion dollars deal to reopen 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:57.280 the three Mile Island Nuclear power Plant to make sure 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:00.520 they have enough electricity to power their data center for 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:04.720 the next twenty years. The bigger conversation, of course, is 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:08.679 about building out new reactors, something the West hasn't done 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:12.240 at scale for decades, and when it has tried in 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:15.640 recent years, the cost of those nuclear plants and the 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:19.959 time to build them has been extraordinary. Take the example 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:22.360 of the Vocal Nuclear Power Plant in the US state 0:01:22.400 --> 0:01:25.520 of Georgia. Its two newest units, built in the last 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:30.400 two years, cost thirty seven billion dollars, nearly three times 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:34.679 the original cost, or take Hinkley Point C in the UK. 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:38.560 Its construction began in twenty seventeen and was expected to 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:42.000 be completed by twenty twenty five, but long delays mean 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:46.360 it might not be operational until twenty thirty one. And 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:50.880 yet there is growing interest in nuclear so it's worth 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:53.800 exploring the state of the technology and whether these dreams 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:58.280 can become a reality. Some quick basics first, there are 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:02.240 two major types of nuclear reactions produce energy. Fission where 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:05.560 atoms are split, it is what all commercially operating nuclear 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:10.519 plants use today, and fusion, where atoms are fused together. 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:13.880 That is what some are hoping will solve our energy 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:17.079 needs once and for all, but there is no commercial 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:20.680 fusion plant yet. For the next two episodes, we'll focus 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:25.480 on the commercially available technology fission. In today's episode, we'll 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:29.000 specifically look at the state of large nuclear fission reactors 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:32.359 that are in operation in around thirty countries and how 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:35.839 to build more of them. In next week's episode, we'll 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:39.240 look at small modular reactors, which many hope will be 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:43.640 the future of nuclear fission. In theory, faster, easier, and 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:47.519 cheaper to deploy. Joining zero for both those episodes is 0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:51.200 Rachel Slabor. She's a partner focused on climate sustainability and 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:55.400 energy at the venture capital firm DCBC. Before that, she 0:02:55.560 --> 0:02:58.680 was a tenured professor of nuclear engineering at the University 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:04.320 of California in books. Rachel, Welcome to the show. 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:06.640 Great to be here. Thank you so much for having me. 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:10.560 So we're going to talk a lot about how Western 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:15.040 countries can start building nuclear power plants again. But before 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:17.560 we get into the meat of the conversation, I want 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:20.480 to know what I can do to become a licensed 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:26.359 nuclear reactor operator that you are, well not anymore so. 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:29.920 I as an undergrad. I was a reactor operator at 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:33.000 Penn State's research reactor, which is a different thing than 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:36.440 a commercial power reactor. But I studied for a year 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:39.880 and took an exam and you know, read lots of 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:42.720 manuals and did lots of drills. So if you have 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:45.520 the time and go to a facility, I'm sure you 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:46.360 can figure it out. 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:50.480 Oh that's excellent. I mean, if it's only a year, 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:51.600 I think that's manageable. 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:54.800 Yeah, a year at a reactor that is so safe 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:57.840 it can't melt down A commercial power reactor. It's long, 0:03:59.360 --> 0:03:59.680 all right. 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.920 Start with a little bit of history. First, Europe and 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:07.240 America used to be great at building nuclear power plants. 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:10.480 The US even today has the world's largest fleet of 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:14.080 nuclear power plants, and countries like France have a huge 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:17.760 share of their electricity coming from nuclear even today. But 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:21.279 when it comes to building new nuclear the story is 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:24.279 really in Asia. So tell us why did the West 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:27.000 stop building nuclear power plants altogether? 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:30.960 Yeah, I mean, we stopped building them mostly due to 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:34.960 the flattening of power demand and inflation. Right, So in 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:39.599 the early eighties, interest rates were very high. Oil shocks 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:43.400 of the seventies, conservation became a really big deal, and 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:45.960 so load growth in the US changed, and that was 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:48.800 combined with really high interest rates. So even if you 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:52.360 could build a project pretty well, a big, expensive project 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:57.120 with fourteen percent interest rate is just not economic. And 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:01.480 so that combination of things, and then nuclear fell out 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:03.960 of public favor. There was a lot of resistance to 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:08.480 it for various reasons, and so throughout the eighties and 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:12.360 most of the nineties, nuclear power just wasn't of interest 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:15.839 in the United States and to some extent in Europe 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:19.120 not quite as badly. It's country by country there and 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:22.880 then nuclear became of interest again in the United States 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:27.000 in the early two thousands to begin with, when natural 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:30.279 gas prices were really high, and so when gas was 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:34.800 eight dollars in mmbtu, now nuclear powers looking pretty good. 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:37.599 And then in the two thousands we figured out fracking 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:40.760 and gas went down to three dollars in mmbt, you 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:43.360 and nobody cared about nuclear anymore. So that it's been 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:45.800 kind of a journey since the seventies. 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:48.680 And it is not that the West has not built 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:51.359 any nuclear power plants. There's one being built here in 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:54.039 the UK, there was one built in the state of 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:57.839 Georgia in the US. The trouble has been that all 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:02.240 these recent nuclear power plants have been very expensive. So 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:06.680 in the UK the average cost of power is about 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:12.240 seventy pounds per MEGAWATR. The Hinkley C poplant, which is 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:16.080 under construction, has been guaranteed a price of one hundred 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:20.160 and twenty seven pounds per megawodar. So why is it 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:23.520 that nuclear pop plants in the West have become so expensive. 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:27.320 It's a collection of reasons. One of the reasons is 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:32.880 the West in general and the US especially are very 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:37.479 bad at megaprojects. So in general, megaprojects are expensive. They 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:41.800 are typically overscheduled and over budget. And my flippant answer 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:44.599 there is that when you add radiation, that doesn't solve 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:48.240 that problem. Right, So we can't build a bridge on 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:50.360 time and on budget, why could we build a nuclear 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:54.000 power plant on time and on budget. So partially is that, 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:59.080 the other part is that historically we haven't had significant 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:02.520 load growth, and so you're building a reactor one at 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:05.000 a time, or maybe two at a time, and so 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:09.560 you never get enough reps in to actually drive the 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:12.559 cost down. So when people say first of a kind, 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:15.360 if everything is a first of a kind, it's more 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:18.560 expensive when you get to enth of a kind. I'm 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:21.280 putting air quotes here. That's when you hit the actual 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:24.400 projected costs. And in the case of large projects, n 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:28.160 is usually like four. You don't have to build hundreds 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:30.720 of them to get to that cost. But when you 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:34.720 build the same project repeatedly, you know, even on number 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:37.560 two compared to number one, all of the things that 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:39.520 were maybe not one hundred percent figured out and the 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:42.840 design or figured out, the supply chain is exercised, the 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:46.360 workforce has done it before, right, So part of it 0:07:46.400 --> 0:07:48.840 is we just aren't aren't building enough of the same thing. 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:51.840 And then the other thing is we're bad at construction 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:54.840 projects for a whole bunch of reasons. People have written 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:58.600 about that are like too many subcontractors. And yes, if 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:01.920 you have subcontractors that are suing each other during the project, 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:04.520 it's probably going to slow down and become more expensive. 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:07.640 I also heard from Ernest Monies, who was the former 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:12.880 Secretary of Energy, that the Vogel nuclear power plant in 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:17.800 Georgia needed two thousand electricians and there weren't two thousand 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:20.560 electricians in rural Georgia, and they all had to be 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:23.360 moved and that just took so much longer. And of 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:26.400 course the US did not plan to build another nuclear 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:29.320 power plant, so now those two thousand electricians have disappeared 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.880 into wherever there are electrician jobs. And that kind of 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:37.040 problem also shows up in construction activity here in Europe. 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:38.600 So that adds to the cost. 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:40.760 That's exactly right. And you can say the same thing 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:44.360 about welders in these skilled trade positions. 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:47.440 So one way in which I want us to talk 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:50.040 about nuclear is to just look at it in these 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:54.240 five different buckets. The first bucket being the old school 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:59.360 large power plant design that exists that we've built many reactors, 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:03.079 and countries like China are building many more of. Then 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:07.199 there are these advanced reactors which could be safer, cheaper, 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:10.600 could use fuel in a more efficient way than there 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:14.720 is small modular reactors, which are essentially maybe old school 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:18.160 or advanced, but in a small form factor. And now 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:21.600 these days there's even microreactors, things that you could literally 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:23.960 put in your backyard in a shipping container or even 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:29.160 something smaller. And they're all very interesting. But let's start 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:32.840 with the thing that exists at scale, which is these 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:36.440 old school reactors. What are they and why is it 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:39.320 that those were the reactors we built most of and 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:40.640 continue to today. 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:44.400 Yeah, we call them large light water reactors, and by 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:48.200 large they actually are large, like a gigawatt of electric output. 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:51.559 And by light water we mean regular water, because the 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:55.360 nuclear industry likes to name things in ways that are opaque. 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:59.720 Sometimes there are also heavy water reactors, and that's where 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:04.679 a hydrogen in the water molecules have an extra nucleon 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:07.480 in them, they have some different properties. Those exist mostly 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:12.080 in Canada. Large light water reactors so they use water 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:16.439 to both cool the fuel and transfer the heat. So fundamentally, 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:21.120 a nuclear reactor is taking usually a uranium two thirty 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:24.480 five atom, which is a big, heavy, unstable atom, and 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:27.480 you add a neutron, and the addition of that neutron 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:31.600 causes enough extra energy in the atom that it becomes 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:34.400 so unstable it splits into two pieces, and in that 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:38.239 process it releases heat. So it's just a really complicated 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:41.160 way to boil water. So the water in light water 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:44.280 reactors is both cooling the fuel to keep it safe 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.120 and then transferring that heat so we can use that 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:50.520 heat to make electricity. The fuel in those reactors it's 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:54.880 uranium two thirty five, about five weight percent compared to 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:58.840 uranium two thirty eight. Specifying this because there's talk of 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:01.320 enrichment quite a bit out in the world these days, 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:05.000 and in nature, uranium two thirty eight is ninety nine 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:09.240 point three percent of the uranium, and so we have 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:13.160 to increase the two thirty five percentage. The fuel pellets 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:17.120 are ceramics, so they're very stable. Think of like you know, 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:20.040 a coffee cup. It's not going anywhere. It's not a 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:23.160 pile of ooze. It's like a ceramic material that the 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:25.679 fuel is inside. Those are in metal tubes that are 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:29.200 tall and skinny. We heat up the water, we create steam, 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.120 turn a turbine. Why did we do it that way. 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:34.360 It's just the easiest way to make it happen. So 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:38.080 there are all these properties around, like what energy is 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:41.800 the neutron when it causes the fission to happen. What 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:45.880 materials are absorbing the neutrons, Because when a fission happens, 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:49.560 a few more neutrons are released, and those neutrons are 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:51.839 available to go on to cause more fission. So it's 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:54.520 all about keeping the chain reaction steady. So a lot 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:57.520 of like what reactor design is is keeping the right 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:01.480 number of neutrons in the system. It's just easy to 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:05.920 do that with water reactors. And also historically, you know, 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:08.480 the nuclear Navy in the United States is really where 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:13.040 nuclear power was born. At the time, the major competing 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:17.679 design was a sodium cooled reactor. But sodium and water 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:23.480 do not mix interact quite energetically, and so at the time, 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:26.920 you know him and Rickover, the very famous admiral of 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:29.560 the US Nuclear Navy, was I don't know if we 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:31.079 can swear on the show, but I'm going to say 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:34.280 his quote. Anyway, if the sea was made out of sodium, 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:36.679 some asshole would try to put a water reactor in it. 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:41.080 So really it was the nuclear Navy. Having a water 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:44.320 reactor in the ocean made much more sense. And so 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:47.360 it was kind of a VHS versus Beta Max and 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:51.960 I need a new analogy for this century. But lightwater 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:52.680 reactors went. 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:56.080 Out Facebook versus MySpace. Well, I don't know there are 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:59.160 many analogies that we could come up with, but okay, 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:01.319 let's take a tun here, because it's important to you 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:06.480 raise this point on nuclear weapons and enrichment. So my 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:10.400 understanding of this is that because you have to enrich 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:13.640 uranium to thirty five, you're going from this point seven 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:18.320 percent to three to five percent for fuel. You do 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:22.040 use the equipment which are centrifuges, the things that the 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:26.319 US targeted in Iran in the recent bombing attack, and 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:30.520 those same centrifuges or perhaps higher speed ones could be 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:33.120 used to enrich it all the way to ninety percent, 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:36.760 which is what you need for weapons grade uranium. It 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:40.640 is important to recognize that this connection between nuclear power 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:45.000 and nuclear weapons does exist. There are nuclear plants in 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:49.040 countries that tend to have nuclear weapons. There are nuclear 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:54.680 plants in other countries, but those are typically built or 0:13:54.720 --> 0:14:00.280 provided for by countries that have nuclear weapons. So there 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:03.720 are regulations around who can have a nuclear reactor, who 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:06.840 can provide the nuclear fuel for those reactors, And there's 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:11.520 a very good reason why those regulations are in place, 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:16.120 because if you give everybody the capacity to make highly 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:19.400 undriched uranium, they could go all the way to a 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:22.440 nuclear weapon, which we know North Korea has been able 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:27.560 to do in the recent past. How much of what 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:33.000 we talk about next could also lead to a risk 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:34.920 of nuclear proliferation. 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:41.560 So overall, nuclear reactors can be connected to nuclear weapons, 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:45.880 but often aren't, and it's pretty straightforward to prevent that. 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:48.080 And then there are a few of these areas where 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:51.320 you need to watch more closely. And maybe one related 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:55.040 point is you correctly specified how much material you need 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:57.360 for a weapon is totally different than what goes into 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:00.400 a reactor, and so as a result, a nuclear actor 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:04.120 cannot explode like a nuclear weapon. They are very different physics, 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:06.840 they're different things. So it is on the front end 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:09.200 of the fuel cycle when you're doing enrichment that is 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:11.640 one of the places where you really need to pay attention, 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:15.600 and that's why we have groups like the International Atomic 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:19.600 Energy Agency that sets standards and norms and does monitoring 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:24.160 and so it's totally possible to have a peaceful nuclear 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:27.160 program and do it responsibly and transparently, and that is 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:30.280 totally a thing. It's also possible to have your fuel 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:32.920 provided for you, whether you just don't want to deal 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:36.920 with the enrichment process, maybe your country just doesn't need 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:39.000 to stand up that capability because it is kind of 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:41.240 a pain. So there are lots of choices. And then 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:44.880 the other one where people look is in recycling of 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:47.560 nuclear fuel. Now that is not something that is done 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:52.200 broadly today. France has a partial recycle process, Russia does 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:56.000 some recycling, Japan has done some recycling, so there is 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:59.080 some around the world. But that's the process where you 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:02.160 take the fuel that we used in the reactor, and 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:04.720 when we take that fuel out, actually most of the 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:09.480 energy is still available in it. There's still some uranium left, 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:12.960 and there's actually plutonium that was created in the reactor 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:16.200 process that can also be used to power reactor, so 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:18.680 you can take out that uranium and plutonium and use 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:22.880 it again. And uranium in plutonium can be used to 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:26.080 make weapons, and so in that recycling process, we have 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:29.840 processes where the uranium and plutonium are never by themselves 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:32.840 in a weapons usable form, and so it's really about 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:37.640 using the processes that don't lend themselves to proliferation, and 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:41.560 again that transparency and accountability. So we don't have a 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:44.440 wide recycling program right now, but some of the advanced 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:47.600 reactors we'll talk about later are set up to facilitate 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:50.240 recycling should we choose to do so in the future. 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:58.800 Join us after the break when I ask Rachel Slabob 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:02.120 why nuclear has become a China story and if the 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:05.160 West can ever catch up. And Hey, if you're enjoying 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:08.360 this episode, please rate and review Zero on Apple Podcasts 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:12.359 and Spotify. Recently, a listener who goes by Danny Utah 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:14.880 one O eight said the Zero team does a great 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:19.359 job evaluating new technologies, trends, and industries through a journalistic lense. 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:41.080 Thank you, Danny Utah one O eight. Coming to advanced reactors, 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:44.560 one of the arguments that people have made to me 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:49.040 is that why are we thinking about these advanced reactors 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.080 of any kind at all? We know this thing that 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:55.480 we've made for the last sixty seventy years safely light 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:58.480 water reactors, we can make many of them, and anyway, 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:02.199 we've learned from engineering that the more you make something, 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:05.600 the cheaper it gets. And why not just stick to 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:07.760 the old stuff, and that would be the way to 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:10.640 bring back nuclear power plants to the West. What's wrong 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:11.399 with that argument? 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:15.359 Yeah, it is an argument that does hold weights, especially 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:19.320 in some countries. Or if we really did decide, hey, 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:21.679 we're going to build a whole bunch of reactors and 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:24.040 drive the cost down, it's possible we could do that. 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:27.520 There are a couple of reasons advanced reactors are attractive. 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:31.360 One is we're just not good at megaprojects. So instead 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:34.280 of trying to become good at megaprojects, what if we 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:38.080 did something different that we're better at, like small modular 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:41.720 factory manufacturing, where we tend to do better. So one 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:44.960 of it is that economics may work out better where 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:48.359 you're trading. You know, you're losing on economy of scale, 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:50.879 but if you can't actually execute the project to get 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:54.000 the economy of scale anyway, then we should take a 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:57.360 different plan. And then the advanced reactors do have some 0:18:57.400 --> 0:19:01.280 features that can be desirable, So some of them, and 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:04.960 it's a big range of technology types, so I'll try 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:07.520 to speak generally. But some of them can operate at 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:11.960 higher temperatures. So if you're looking for decarbonized process heat, 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:15.159 now you can have quite high temperatures that you can 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:18.720 use for industrial processes. Also, when they're at high temperatures, 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:20.960 they work more efficiently, so you get more bang for 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:23.400 your buck out of the fuel. Some of them can 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:26.800 facilitate recycling, and so in a world where we have 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:30.159 increased energy demand, we want to limit uranium mining. Or 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:32.640 when you do the recycling the waste that comes out 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:35.280 at the end is radioactive for less time, it's easier 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:38.200 to manage. You have less of it, right, So that's 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:42.359 a desirable property. And as I mentioned, they might be 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:46.920 more economic. And then the last reason is it's easier 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:51.320 to make them in more sizes and not every market 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:54.800 needs a gigawot. We don't always want to grow a 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:58.880 gigawott at a time. Not every grid needs that, especially 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:02.680 if you're talking about more behind the meter projects. Now, 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:05.960 if you have more sizes of reactor choices, they might 0:20:06.000 --> 0:20:08.200 be a better fit for different market applications. 0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:11.760 And we're talking about all this now for nuclear, because 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:16.320 there is rising power demand in western countries as a 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:19.240 result of AI, as a result of electric cars and 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:23.320 heat pumps, and this change in trajectory and power demand 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:26.359 is what is making people go, Yes, we've got all 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:28.640 the solar and wind and that's great, and we're going 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:31.120 to build a lot of it. Maybe not in the US, 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:34.240 given what's happening with the politics there, but you know 0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:36.760 everywhere else. Yes, we're going to support this thing, but 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:39.479 it's not going to provide power all the time, and 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:42.919 for data centers especially, we're going to need that power 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:46.119 all the time. But then there's the argument, which is 0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:49.879 if it's going to take first these light water reactors 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:53.959 five ten years to build, that's too long. Second, if 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:56.879 you want to build these advanced reactors, maybe smaller ones, 0:20:57.359 --> 0:20:58.879 you're still going to have to go through the process 0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:02.560 of getting the reactor design and approved, finding people who 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:04.560 would want to buy it, and that's still going to 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:07.960 take five or ten years. The power demand for these 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:12.280 AI hogs is right now. So what is the reason 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:14.240 why they're even looking at nuclear. 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:19.919 I think there's expectation that, yes, there's power demand today 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:21.959 and in the future it's going to be even bigger, 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:24.800 and so you can cobble together the tools you have 0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:28.760 right now, which honestly is kind of challenging because you, 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:32.520 i mean, turbines for gas plants are also five years 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:35.160 back ordered. Right It's like really hard to build anything 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:39.160 right now, and so you are going to need all 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:42.600 the tools in your tool belt looking twenty thirty and beyond, 0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:45.159 because we're growing now. We don't know how fast we're 0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:47.560 going to grow. People are building data centers, but you 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:50.119 can imagine if you look at that growth rate, it 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:52.879 leads to some pretty big numbers in the future. And 0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:55.440 so if you don't start working on the nuclear reactors now, 0:21:56.160 --> 0:21:58.239 you definitely won't have them in five years when you 0:21:58.280 --> 0:21:58.600 need them. 0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:03.640 Use address the question that the story of nuclear right 0:22:03.680 --> 0:22:07.320 now is in Asia, It's really in China. It is 0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:10.520 the place with nearly half of all new reactors being built. 0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:15.320 It is the place which bloomogenif quotes builds these reactors 0:22:15.359 --> 0:22:18.520 at one fifth the cost of the most recent reactor 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:23.000 built in the US, and China has the plan to 0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:25.399 build about one hundred and fifty of these by twenty 0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:28.159 thirty five, which would make the fleet be double the 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:31.080 size of what the US fleet, which is the largest currently. 0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:35.479 Why is China doing it so cheaply? And is it 0:22:35.520 --> 0:22:37.760 because it's making the same thing again and again. 0:22:37.920 --> 0:22:42.240 Yeah, I will say there is some transparency issues that 0:22:42.240 --> 0:22:44.480 we don't one hundred percent know the answer, but the 0:22:44.520 --> 0:22:46.760 answer is similar in China as it is in Korea, 0:22:46.840 --> 0:22:50.239 as it is in the other non Western you know, 0:22:50.359 --> 0:22:52.720 the rest of the world places where their reactors are 0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:55.760 being built. So it is the same exact design and 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:59.720 they are building it over and over again, and that 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:03.720 infrastructure of how they build projects is much more efficient 0:23:03.800 --> 0:23:08.159 than how we do things here. When reactors are built inexpensively, 0:23:08.400 --> 0:23:12.280 it tends to be vertically integrated. You have one organization 0:23:12.600 --> 0:23:16.560 that is very well coordinated building these things, and then 0:23:17.119 --> 0:23:19.080 right you have a design, you know what it is, 0:23:19.119 --> 0:23:21.240 you build it over and over the same exact way. 0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:24.880 You have people who have done it before, both the 0:23:24.920 --> 0:23:28.760 construction managers and the project managers, as well as the 0:23:28.800 --> 0:23:34.639 welders and the electricians. So it's that consistency and clarity 0:23:34.840 --> 0:23:37.920 of design and clarity of plan are two really big 0:23:37.960 --> 0:23:40.719 factors that you are building a thing that you know 0:23:40.760 --> 0:23:44.480