1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati this week. Why the 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: West can't build nuclear electricity demand is booming, and it's 3 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: not just because of AI. We are electrifying a lot 4 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: of things, from cars to heating to heavy industry, and 5 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: that's got a lot of people thinking where will all 6 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: this electricity come from? And how can we make sure 7 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: it's available whenever it's needed. One of the technologies that 8 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: people are turning to or turning back to, is nuclear. 9 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: In fact, the demand is so great that in the US, 10 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: previously decommissioned nuclear reactors are being turned back on. Microsoft 11 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: last year signed a sixteen billion dollars deal to reopen 12 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: the three Mile Island Nuclear power Plant to make sure 13 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: they have enough electricity to power their data center for 14 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: the next twenty years. The bigger conversation, of course, is 15 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: about building out new reactors, something the West hasn't done 16 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: at scale for decades, and when it has tried in 17 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: recent years, the cost of those nuclear plants and the 18 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: time to build them has been extraordinary. Take the example 19 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: of the Vocal Nuclear Power Plant in the US state 20 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: of Georgia. Its two newest units, built in the last 21 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: two years, cost thirty seven billion dollars, nearly three times 22 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: the original cost, or take Hinkley Point C in the UK. 23 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: Its construction began in twenty seventeen and was expected to 24 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: be completed by twenty twenty five, but long delays mean 25 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: it might not be operational until twenty thirty one. And 26 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: yet there is growing interest in nuclear so it's worth 27 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: exploring the state of the technology and whether these dreams 28 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: can become a reality. Some quick basics first, there are 29 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: two major types of nuclear reactions produce energy. Fission where 30 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: atoms are split, it is what all commercially operating nuclear 31 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:10,519 Speaker 1: plants use today, and fusion, where atoms are fused together. 32 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: That is what some are hoping will solve our energy 33 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 1: needs once and for all, but there is no commercial 34 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: fusion plant yet. For the next two episodes, we'll focus 35 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: on the commercially available technology fission. In today's episode, we'll 36 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: specifically look at the state of large nuclear fission reactors 37 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 1: that are in operation in around thirty countries and how 38 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,839 Speaker 1: to build more of them. In next week's episode, we'll 39 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: look at small modular reactors, which many hope will be 40 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: the future of nuclear fission. In theory, faster, easier, and 41 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,519 Speaker 1: cheaper to deploy. Joining zero for both those episodes is 42 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: Rachel Slabor. She's a partner focused on climate sustainability and 43 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 1: energy at the venture capital firm DCBC. Before that, she 44 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: was a tenured professor of nuclear engineering at the University 45 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: of California in books. Rachel, Welcome to the show. 46 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 2: Great to be here. Thank you so much for having me. 47 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: So we're going to talk a lot about how Western 48 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: countries can start building nuclear power plants again. But before 49 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: we get into the meat of the conversation, I want 50 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: to know what I can do to become a licensed 51 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 1: nuclear reactor operator that you are, well not anymore so. 52 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 2: I as an undergrad. I was a reactor operator at 53 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 2: Penn State's research reactor, which is a different thing than 54 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 2: a commercial power reactor. But I studied for a year 55 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 2: and took an exam and you know, read lots of 56 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 2: manuals and did lots of drills. So if you have 57 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 2: the time and go to a facility, I'm sure you 58 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 2: can figure it out. 59 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: Oh that's excellent. I mean, if it's only a year, 60 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: I think that's manageable. 61 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, a year at a reactor that is so safe 62 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 2: it can't melt down A commercial power reactor. It's long, 63 00:03:59,360 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 2: all right. 64 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: Start with a little bit of history. First, Europe and 65 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: America used to be great at building nuclear power plants. 66 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: The US even today has the world's largest fleet of 67 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: nuclear power plants, and countries like France have a huge 68 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: share of their electricity coming from nuclear even today. But 69 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 1: when it comes to building new nuclear the story is 70 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: really in Asia. So tell us why did the West 71 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: stop building nuclear power plants altogether? 72 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we stopped building them mostly due to 73 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 2: the flattening of power demand and inflation. Right, So in 74 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 2: the early eighties, interest rates were very high. Oil shocks 75 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 2: of the seventies, conservation became a really big deal, and 76 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 2: so load growth in the US changed, and that was 77 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 2: combined with really high interest rates. So even if you 78 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 2: could build a project pretty well, a big, expensive project 79 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 2: with fourteen percent interest rate is just not economic. And 80 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 2: so that combination of things, and then nuclear fell out 81 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 2: of public favor. There was a lot of resistance to 82 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 2: it for various reasons, and so throughout the eighties and 83 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 2: most of the nineties, nuclear power just wasn't of interest 84 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 2: in the United States and to some extent in Europe 85 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 2: not quite as badly. It's country by country there and 86 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 2: then nuclear became of interest again in the United States 87 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 2: in the early two thousands to begin with, when natural 88 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 2: gas prices were really high, and so when gas was 89 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 2: eight dollars in mmbtu, now nuclear powers looking pretty good. 90 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 2: And then in the two thousands we figured out fracking 91 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 2: and gas went down to three dollars in mmbt, you 92 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 2: and nobody cared about nuclear anymore. So that it's been 93 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 2: kind of a journey since the seventies. 94 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: And it is not that the West has not built 95 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 1: any nuclear power plants. There's one being built here in 96 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 1: the UK, there was one built in the state of 97 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 1: Georgia in the US. The trouble has been that all 98 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: these recent nuclear power plants have been very expensive. So 99 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: in the UK the average cost of power is about 100 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: seventy pounds per MEGAWATR. The Hinkley C poplant, which is 101 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: under construction, has been guaranteed a price of one hundred 102 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 1: and twenty seven pounds per megawodar. So why is it 103 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: that nuclear pop plants in the West have become so expensive. 104 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 2: It's a collection of reasons. One of the reasons is 105 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 2: the West in general and the US especially are very 106 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 2: bad at megaprojects. So in general, megaprojects are expensive. They 107 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 2: are typically overscheduled and over budget. And my flippant answer 108 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 2: there is that when you add radiation, that doesn't solve 109 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 2: that problem. Right, So we can't build a bridge on 110 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 2: time and on budget, why could we build a nuclear 111 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 2: power plant on time and on budget. So partially is that, 112 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 2: the other part is that historically we haven't had significant 113 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 2: load growth, and so you're building a reactor one at 114 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 2: a time, or maybe two at a time, and so 115 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 2: you never get enough reps in to actually drive the 116 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,559 Speaker 2: cost down. So when people say first of a kind, 117 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 2: if everything is a first of a kind, it's more 118 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 2: expensive when you get to enth of a kind. I'm 119 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 2: putting air quotes here. That's when you hit the actual 120 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 2: projected costs. And in the case of large projects, n 121 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 2: is usually like four. You don't have to build hundreds 122 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: of them to get to that cost. But when you 123 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 2: build the same project repeatedly, you know, even on number 124 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 2: two compared to number one, all of the things that 125 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 2: were maybe not one hundred percent figured out and the 126 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 2: design or figured out, the supply chain is exercised, the 127 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 2: workforce has done it before, right, So part of it 128 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 2: is we just aren't aren't building enough of the same thing. 129 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 2: And then the other thing is we're bad at construction 130 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 2: projects for a whole bunch of reasons. People have written 131 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 2: about that are like too many subcontractors. And yes, if 132 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 2: you have subcontractors that are suing each other during the project, 133 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 2: it's probably going to slow down and become more expensive. 134 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: I also heard from Ernest Monies, who was the former 135 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: Secretary of Energy, that the Vogel nuclear power plant in 136 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: Georgia needed two thousand electricians and there weren't two thousand 137 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: electricians in rural Georgia, and they all had to be 138 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: moved and that just took so much longer. And of 139 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: course the US did not plan to build another nuclear 140 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: power plant, so now those two thousand electricians have disappeared 141 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: into wherever there are electrician jobs. And that kind of 142 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: problem also shows up in construction activity here in Europe. 143 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: So that adds to the cost. 144 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 2: That's exactly right. And you can say the same thing 145 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 2: about welders in these skilled trade positions. 146 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 1: So one way in which I want us to talk 147 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: about nuclear is to just look at it in these 148 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: five different buckets. The first bucket being the old school 149 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: large power plant design that exists that we've built many reactors, 150 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:03,079 Speaker 1: and countries like China are building many more of. Then 151 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 1: there are these advanced reactors which could be safer, cheaper, 152 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: could use fuel in a more efficient way than there 153 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: is small modular reactors, which are essentially maybe old school 154 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: or advanced, but in a small form factor. And now 155 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: these days there's even microreactors, things that you could literally 156 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: put in your backyard in a shipping container or even 157 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: something smaller. And they're all very interesting. But let's start 158 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: with the thing that exists at scale, which is these 159 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: old school reactors. What are they and why is it 160 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: that those were the reactors we built most of and 161 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: continue to today. 162 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, we call them large light water reactors, and by 163 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 2: large they actually are large, like a gigawatt of electric output. 164 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 2: And by light water we mean regular water, because the 165 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 2: nuclear industry likes to name things in ways that are opaque. 166 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 2: Sometimes there are also heavy water reactors, and that's where 167 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 2: a hydrogen in the water molecules have an extra nucleon 168 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 2: in them, they have some different properties. Those exist mostly 169 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 2: in Canada. Large light water reactors so they use water 170 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:16,439 Speaker 2: to both cool the fuel and transfer the heat. So fundamentally, 171 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 2: a nuclear reactor is taking usually a uranium two thirty 172 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 2: five atom, which is a big, heavy, unstable atom, and 173 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 2: you add a neutron, and the addition of that neutron 174 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 2: causes enough extra energy in the atom that it becomes 175 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 2: so unstable it splits into two pieces, and in that 176 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,239 Speaker 2: process it releases heat. So it's just a really complicated 177 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 2: way to boil water. So the water in light water 178 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 2: reactors is both cooling the fuel to keep it safe 179 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 2: and then transferring that heat so we can use that 180 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 2: heat to make electricity. The fuel in those reactors it's 181 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 2: uranium two thirty five, about five weight percent compared to 182 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 2: uranium two thirty eight. Specifying this because there's talk of 183 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 2: enrichment quite a bit out in the world these days, 184 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 2: and in nature, uranium two thirty eight is ninety nine 185 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 2: point three percent of the uranium, and so we have 186 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 2: to increase the two thirty five percentage. The fuel pellets 187 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 2: are ceramics, so they're very stable. Think of like you know, 188 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 2: a coffee cup. It's not going anywhere. It's not a 189 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 2: pile of ooze. It's like a ceramic material that the 190 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 2: fuel is inside. Those are in metal tubes that are 191 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 2: tall and skinny. We heat up the water, we create steam, 192 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 2: turn a turbine. Why did we do it that way. 193 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 2: It's just the easiest way to make it happen. So 194 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 2: there are all these properties around, like what energy is 195 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 2: the neutron when it causes the fission to happen. What 196 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 2: materials are absorbing the neutrons, Because when a fission happens, 197 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 2: a few more neutrons are released, and those neutrons are 198 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:51,839 Speaker 2: available to go on to cause more fission. So it's 199 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 2: all about keeping the chain reaction steady. So a lot 200 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 2: of like what reactor design is is keeping the right 201 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 2: number of neutrons in the system. It's just easy to 202 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 2: do that with water reactors. And also historically, you know, 203 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 2: the nuclear Navy in the United States is really where 204 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 2: nuclear power was born. At the time, the major competing 205 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 2: design was a sodium cooled reactor. But sodium and water 206 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 2: do not mix interact quite energetically, and so at the time, 207 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 2: you know him and Rickover, the very famous admiral of 208 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 2: the US Nuclear Navy, was I don't know if we 209 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:31,079 Speaker 2: can swear on the show, but I'm going to say 210 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 2: his quote. Anyway, if the sea was made out of sodium, 211 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 2: some asshole would try to put a water reactor in it. 212 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 2: So really it was the nuclear Navy. Having a water 213 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 2: reactor in the ocean made much more sense. And so 214 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 2: it was kind of a VHS versus Beta Max and 215 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 2: I need a new analogy for this century. But lightwater 216 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 2: reactors went. 217 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 1: Out Facebook versus MySpace. Well, I don't know there are 218 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: many analogies that we could come up with, but okay, 219 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 1: let's take a tun here, because it's important to you 220 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: raise this point on nuclear weapons and enrichment. So my 221 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: understanding of this is that because you have to enrich 222 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: uranium to thirty five, you're going from this point seven 223 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 1: percent to three to five percent for fuel. You do 224 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: use the equipment which are centrifuges, the things that the 225 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:26,319 Speaker 1: US targeted in Iran in the recent bombing attack, and 226 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: those same centrifuges or perhaps higher speed ones could be 227 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: used to enrich it all the way to ninety percent, 228 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: which is what you need for weapons grade uranium. It 229 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: is important to recognize that this connection between nuclear power 230 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: and nuclear weapons does exist. There are nuclear plants in 231 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: countries that tend to have nuclear weapons. There are nuclear 232 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: plants in other countries, but those are typically built or 233 00:13:54,720 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: provided for by countries that have nuclear weapons. So there 234 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: are regulations around who can have a nuclear reactor, who 235 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: can provide the nuclear fuel for those reactors, And there's 236 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: a very good reason why those regulations are in place, 237 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: because if you give everybody the capacity to make highly 238 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: undriched uranium, they could go all the way to a 239 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: nuclear weapon, which we know North Korea has been able 240 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: to do in the recent past. How much of what 241 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: we talk about next could also lead to a risk 242 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: of nuclear proliferation. 243 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 2: So overall, nuclear reactors can be connected to nuclear weapons, 244 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 2: but often aren't, and it's pretty straightforward to prevent that. 245 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 2: And then there are a few of these areas where 246 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 2: you need to watch more closely. And maybe one related 247 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 2: point is you correctly specified how much material you need 248 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 2: for a weapon is totally different than what goes into 249 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 2: a reactor, and so as a result, a nuclear actor 250 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 2: cannot explode like a nuclear weapon. They are very different physics, 251 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 2: they're different things. So it is on the front end 252 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 2: of the fuel cycle when you're doing enrichment that is 253 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 2: one of the places where you really need to pay attention, 254 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 2: and that's why we have groups like the International Atomic 255 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 2: Energy Agency that sets standards and norms and does monitoring 256 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 2: and so it's totally possible to have a peaceful nuclear 257 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 2: program and do it responsibly and transparently, and that is 258 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 2: totally a thing. It's also possible to have your fuel 259 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 2: provided for you, whether you just don't want to deal 260 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 2: with the enrichment process, maybe your country just doesn't need 261 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 2: to stand up that capability because it is kind of 262 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 2: a pain. So there are lots of choices. And then 263 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 2: the other one where people look is in recycling of 264 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 2: nuclear fuel. Now that is not something that is done 265 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 2: broadly today. France has a partial recycle process, Russia does 266 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 2: some recycling, Japan has done some recycling, so there is 267 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 2: some around the world. But that's the process where you 268 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 2: take the fuel that we used in the reactor, and 269 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 2: when we take that fuel out, actually most of the 270 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 2: energy is still available in it. There's still some uranium left, 271 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 2: and there's actually plutonium that was created in the reactor 272 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 2: process that can also be used to power reactor, so 273 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 2: you can take out that uranium and plutonium and use 274 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 2: it again. And uranium in plutonium can be used to 275 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 2: make weapons, and so in that recycling process, we have 276 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 2: processes where the uranium and plutonium are never by themselves 277 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 2: in a weapons usable form, and so it's really about 278 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 2: using the processes that don't lend themselves to proliferation, and 279 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 2: again that transparency and accountability. So we don't have a 280 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 2: wide recycling program right now, but some of the advanced 281 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 2: reactors we'll talk about later are set up to facilitate 282 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 2: recycling should we choose to do so in the future. 283 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: Join us after the break when I ask Rachel Slabob 284 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: why nuclear has become a China story and if the 285 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 1: West can ever catch up. And Hey, if you're enjoying 286 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,360 Speaker 1: this episode, please rate and review Zero on Apple Podcasts 287 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: and Spotify. Recently, a listener who goes by Danny Utah 288 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 1: one O eight said the Zero team does a great 289 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 1: job evaluating new technologies, trends, and industries through a journalistic lense. 290 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: Thank you, Danny Utah one O eight. Coming to advanced reactors, 291 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: one of the arguments that people have made to me 292 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: is that why are we thinking about these advanced reactors 293 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: of any kind at all? We know this thing that 294 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: we've made for the last sixty seventy years safely light 295 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: water reactors, we can make many of them, and anyway, 296 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,199 Speaker 1: we've learned from engineering that the more you make something, 297 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: the cheaper it gets. And why not just stick to 298 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: the old stuff, and that would be the way to 299 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: bring back nuclear power plants to the West. What's wrong 300 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: with that argument? 301 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is an argument that does hold weights, especially 302 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 2: in some countries. Or if we really did decide, hey, 303 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 2: we're going to build a whole bunch of reactors and 304 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 2: drive the cost down, it's possible we could do that. 305 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 2: There are a couple of reasons advanced reactors are attractive. 306 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,360 Speaker 2: One is we're just not good at megaprojects. So instead 307 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 2: of trying to become good at megaprojects, what if we 308 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 2: did something different that we're better at, like small modular 309 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 2: factory manufacturing, where we tend to do better. So one 310 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 2: of it is that economics may work out better where 311 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 2: you're trading. You know, you're losing on economy of scale, 312 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 2: but if you can't actually execute the project to get 313 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 2: the economy of scale anyway, then we should take a 314 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,360 Speaker 2: different plan. And then the advanced reactors do have some 315 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 2: features that can be desirable, So some of them, and 316 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 2: it's a big range of technology types, so I'll try 317 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 2: to speak generally. But some of them can operate at 318 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 2: higher temperatures. So if you're looking for decarbonized process heat, 319 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 2: now you can have quite high temperatures that you can 320 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 2: use for industrial processes. Also, when they're at high temperatures, 321 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 2: they work more efficiently, so you get more bang for 322 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,400 Speaker 2: your buck out of the fuel. Some of them can 323 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 2: facilitate recycling, and so in a world where we have 324 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 2: increased energy demand, we want to limit uranium mining. Or 325 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 2: when you do the recycling the waste that comes out 326 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 2: at the end is radioactive for less time, it's easier 327 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 2: to manage. You have less of it, right, So that's 328 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 2: a desirable property. And as I mentioned, they might be 329 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 2: more economic. And then the last reason is it's easier 330 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 2: to make them in more sizes and not every market 331 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 2: needs a gigawot. We don't always want to grow a 332 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 2: gigawott at a time. Not every grid needs that, especially 333 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 2: if you're talking about more behind the meter projects. Now, 334 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 2: if you have more sizes of reactor choices, they might 335 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 2: be a better fit for different market applications. 336 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: And we're talking about all this now for nuclear, because 337 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: there is rising power demand in western countries as a 338 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: result of AI, as a result of electric cars and 339 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: heat pumps, and this change in trajectory and power demand 340 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 1: is what is making people go, Yes, we've got all 341 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 1: the solar and wind and that's great, and we're going 342 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 1: to build a lot of it. Maybe not in the US, 343 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: given what's happening with the politics there, but you know 344 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: everywhere else. Yes, we're going to support this thing, but 345 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,479 Speaker 1: it's not going to provide power all the time, and 346 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,919 Speaker 1: for data centers especially, we're going to need that power 347 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: all the time. But then there's the argument, which is 348 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 1: if it's going to take first these light water reactors 349 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,959 Speaker 1: five ten years to build, that's too long. Second, if 350 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: you want to build these advanced reactors, maybe smaller ones, 351 00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: you're still going to have to go through the process 352 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: of getting the reactor design and approved, finding people who 353 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: would want to buy it, and that's still going to 354 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: take five or ten years. The power demand for these 355 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: AI hogs is right now. So what is the reason 356 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: why they're even looking at nuclear. 357 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:19,919 Speaker 2: I think there's expectation that, yes, there's power demand today 358 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:21,959 Speaker 2: and in the future it's going to be even bigger, 359 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 2: and so you can cobble together the tools you have 360 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 2: right now, which honestly is kind of challenging because you, 361 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 2: i mean, turbines for gas plants are also five years 362 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 2: back ordered. Right It's like really hard to build anything 363 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 2: right now, and so you are going to need all 364 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 2: the tools in your tool belt looking twenty thirty and beyond, 365 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 2: because we're growing now. We don't know how fast we're 366 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 2: going to grow. People are building data centers, but you 367 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 2: can imagine if you look at that growth rate, it 368 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 2: leads to some pretty big numbers in the future. And 369 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 2: so if you don't start working on the nuclear reactors now, 370 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,239 Speaker 2: you definitely won't have them in five years when you 371 00:21:58,280 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 2: need them. 372 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 1: Use address the question that the story of nuclear right 373 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: now is in Asia, It's really in China. It is 374 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: the place with nearly half of all new reactors being built. 375 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: It is the place which bloomogenif quotes builds these reactors 376 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: at one fifth the cost of the most recent reactor 377 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: built in the US, and China has the plan to 378 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 1: build about one hundred and fifty of these by twenty 379 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 1: thirty five, which would make the fleet be double the 380 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: size of what the US fleet, which is the largest currently. 381 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,479 Speaker 1: Why is China doing it so cheaply? And is it 382 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: because it's making the same thing again and again. 383 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I will say there is some transparency issues that 384 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 2: we don't one hundred percent know the answer, but the 385 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 2: answer is similar in China as it is in Korea, 386 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,239 Speaker 2: as it is in the other non Western you know, 387 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 2: the rest of the world places where their reactors are 388 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 2: being built. So it is the same exact design and 389 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 2: they are building it over and over again, and that 390 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 2: infrastructure of how they build projects is much more efficient 391 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 2: than how we do things here. When reactors are built inexpensively, 392 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 2: it tends to be vertically integrated. You have one organization 393 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 2: that is very well coordinated building these things, and then 394 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 2: right you have a design, you know what it is, 395 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 2: you build it over and over the same exact way. 396 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 2: You have people who have done it before, both the 397 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 2: construction managers and the project managers, as well as the 398 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 2: welders and the electricians. So it's that consistency and clarity 399 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 2: of design and clarity of plan are two really big 400 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,719 Speaker 2: factors that you are building a thing that you know 401 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 2: exactly what you're building, and the orchestration of that construction 402 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 2: is really well done, and those are the things that 403 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 2: have been missing in the West so far. But it 404 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 2: is not just China, it's also Korea, the Middle East, Turkey. 405 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: But then let's talk politics, and especially politics from both 406 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: the polar side and from the policy side. Now, in 407 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: the US you have gone through a whipsaw on climate 408 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: policy between presidents from Obama to first drum presidency to 409 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 1: Biden to second Trump presidency. Why do you think nuclear 410 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: can have a future in the US where this whipsaw 411 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: is likely to continue because the polarization between parties has grown. 412 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 2: Interestingly, nuclear has become a bipartisan issue. Really. The Biden 413 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 2: administration was the first Democratic admin to embrace nuclear, and 414 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 2: so that crossover view of climate benefit and resilience and security. 415 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 2: Nuclear is one of the technologies where that's true. Geothermal 416 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 2: is actually another one where there's a stability, a domestic ownership, 417 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:58,239 Speaker 2: so it's viewed from sort of a resilience lens, and 418 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 2: then it also has all these climate benefits. So it's 419 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 2: one of the very few technologies that is agreed upon 420 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 2: by both parties. So we've actually, over the last ten 421 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 2: years seen increasing support for nuclear regardless of administration. 422 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: That was a lot of fun. Thank you, Rachel. Next 423 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: week we're going to talk about small modular nuclear reactors 424 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: and whether they can be built at scale. 425 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, akx Sha. It was great to be. 426 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:32,199 Speaker 1: Here, and thank you for listening to Zero. Now for 427 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: the sound of the week. That's the sound of a 428 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: balloon being popped and the echoes that follow inside the 429 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:50,159 Speaker 1: cooling tower of a nuclear power plant. If you like 430 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: this episode, please take a moment to rate and review 431 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share this episode 432 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 1: with a friend or with a nuclear bro. This episode 433 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: was produced by Oscar Our. Theme music is composed by 434 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: wonder Lee. Special thanks to Eleanor Harrison, Dengate, Samersadi, Moses 435 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: Andim and Sherwan Wagner. I am Akshatrati Back soon.