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Speaker 1: Ruthie's Table four is now on YouTube.

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Speaker 2: To watch this episode and others, just visit Ruthy's Table

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Speaker 2: four dot com forward Slash YouTube.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Ruthie's Table four in collaboration with me

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Speaker 1: and m Intelligence style for busy women in this world,

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Speaker 1: we need best friends. Hilton Alls, writer critic curator, is

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Speaker 1: a best friend of two of my best friends, Katie

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Speaker 1: Robin and Gordon Vanderklausen, directors of the Michael Verner Gallery,

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Speaker 1: where Hilton curated the show Postures Jean Reese in the

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Speaker 1: Modern World. Last night at the opening, I saw him

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Speaker 1: from a distance, a beautiful figure in an enveloping and

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Speaker 1: elegant white linen suit. The past few days have been

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Speaker 1: spent rereading his articles in The New Yorker, listening to

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Speaker 1: his beautiful eulogy for Joan Didion, and taking his books

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Speaker 1: The Women, White Girls from my bookshelf, keeping Pin up

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Speaker 1: his book about Prince next to my bed. Today we're

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Speaker 1: finally together around a table in the river Kefel. I

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Speaker 1: often say that every table has a story to tell.

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Speaker 1: That's what we're going to do today. Hilton and I

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Speaker 1: best friends already.

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Speaker 2: So what a tribute? Wow? Who done.

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Speaker 1: What we could also do is we could start. We

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Speaker 1: love listening to people read a recipe in any way

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Speaker 1: they want, and they choose a recipe from one of

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Speaker 1: our books. And so I think that you chose over

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Speaker 1: Soul with Marjoram. And one of the first things you

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Speaker 1: said to me yesterday when I said you was that

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Speaker 1: you said you'd love fresh margin. Yes, I thought you

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Speaker 1: might have chosen it because you love the soul, but

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Speaker 1: you love I.

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Speaker 2: Love them both, but I have a it's an element

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Speaker 2: that's not used nearly enough, I feel, and then whenever

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Speaker 2: I get it, I'm always surprised. So I was so

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Speaker 2: thrilled to see it in your beautiful book.

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Speaker 1: Here's the recipe, okay. And also fish is very difficult

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Speaker 1: to cook it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, I'm just I'm way too old. I

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Speaker 2: leave that to why Cluff and to bad Bunny. Okay.

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Speaker 2: Dover soal with capers and marshroom. Two tablespoons salted capers,

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Speaker 2: rinsed extra virgin olive oil, a bunch of fresh marsroom leaves,

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Speaker 2: four whole dover soil, scaled and cleaned, one lemon cut

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Speaker 2: in half. Preheat the oven to two hundred and thirty

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Speaker 2: degrees celsius. Brush a large flat oven tray with extra

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Speaker 2: virgin olive oil. Scatter half of the marsroom leaves over

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Speaker 2: the tray with sea salt and black pepper. Place the

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Speaker 2: fish on top, side by side. Season then scatter the

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Speaker 2: remain remaining margaram and the capers over. Drizzle with olive oil.

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Speaker 2: Baked for fifteen to twenty minutes. Tests with the point

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Speaker 2: of a sharp knife inserted into the thickest part of

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Speaker 2: the soul. If cooked, the flesh should come away from

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Speaker 2: the bone. Squeeze the lemon over the fish, and served

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Speaker 2: with juices.

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Speaker 1: Simple.

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Speaker 2: It's very simple. But you know I.

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Speaker 1: Find all the recipes, So the margroom was what drew you.

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Speaker 2: Also it was also I think fish is difficult to handle,

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Speaker 2: and this recipe made gave me more confidence about cooking

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Speaker 2: dover soil at home. Gave me a lot more confidence.

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Speaker 1: Confidence is what we need.

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Speaker 2: And also, yeah, because if you have confidence, then your

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Speaker 2: imagination can.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say that about I learned to cook

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Speaker 1: through the Art of Mastering French Cooking by Julia Child.

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Speaker 1: And she never said to take a ripey juicy tomato

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Speaker 1: and squeeze it. She said take a tomato that was

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Speaker 1: four centimeters across or six inches across, and was two

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Speaker 1: centime to tie and cut it. One sent to me

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Speaker 1: to think whatever it was, so it was like a science,

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Speaker 1: I would say, recipes like poetry and science. But she

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Speaker 1: made it so clear that you never had a failure,

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Speaker 1: and that gave you the confidence that's right, then you know,

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Speaker 1: throw the cookbook away and find that.

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Speaker 2: Jesus, do you think I think that. I think that

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Speaker 2: if you have the if you have the fundamentals down,

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Speaker 2: then you're able to invent. So when I read this

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Speaker 2: and I said, oh wow, I never knew that I

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Speaker 2: would put the leaves down with the oil and salt

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Speaker 2: so that there's a bed. Yeah, And it was just

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Speaker 2: so it freed me to go to the store when

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Speaker 2: I get back to New York and buy some soul

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Speaker 2: and say, oh, I want to try this, because the

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Speaker 2: great thing about the book too, is that it frees

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Speaker 2: you to improvise.

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Speaker 1: Would you say that's true of any discipline, that you

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Speaker 1: you know the rigor of the technique and then you

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Speaker 1: can be free. Would you say that.

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Speaker 2: I would? I would bet I would stake my life

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Speaker 2: on it. Really that once you have the fundamentals of anything.

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Speaker 2: Then you're able to soar because you don't have to

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Speaker 2: think about technique. That's the issue for a lot of

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Speaker 2: writers and artists is that they get sort of embroiled

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Speaker 2: in the technique of something as opposed to the breath

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Speaker 2: of something. One of the things that I always tell

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Speaker 2: students and writers and actors share this. I always the

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Speaker 2: question is what is the hardest thing to do? And

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Speaker 2: they say often some people say, you know, structure or whatever,

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Speaker 2: and I said, no, Nope, the hardest thing is to relax,

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Speaker 2: relax enough to sit down and to start to play

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Speaker 2: with the language. When an actor it's free as when

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Speaker 2: they can relax and it's not a crew of people,

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Speaker 2: it's just you and we're talking. And so the technique

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Speaker 2: part of it has to go out of the way.

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Speaker 2: You have to forget it in order to live much

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Speaker 2: more fully in the moment of the writing or the

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Speaker 2: acting or the podcast or whatever.

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Speaker 1: But do you think the reverse. Then it's also true

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Speaker 1: that if you don't have you had writers who have

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Speaker 1: the freedom but don't have the technique to get rid of.

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Speaker 2: What happens, then mostly they're beat poets. But oh, there's

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Speaker 2: wonderful you know that wonderful Truman Capodi comment. He was

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Speaker 2: very young and on a television program and he said

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Speaker 2: the beat writers. Carawat came up and he said, that's

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Speaker 2: not writing, that's typing. And there's a big difference. Right,

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Speaker 2: A lot of people, as they're discovering their voices as writers,

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Speaker 2: are just typing. So when I'm just typing, my editor,

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Speaker 2: Deborah Treaseman is the fiction editor of The New Yorker,

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Speaker 2: is very wise, and she'll put a little note in saying,

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Speaker 2: you're just writing. Here, you writing, You're not saying the thing.

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Speaker 1: Do you think the same is true of an artist

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Speaker 1: like Pollock or an abstract expressionist? Thank you, because I

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Speaker 1: always enjoy when I see that the drawings of an

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Speaker 1: artist who's I've just seen their paintings and then you

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Speaker 1: see the way that you know, whether it's Rothko and

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Speaker 1: his the way he drew a figure is always very

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Speaker 1: interesting to see that.

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Speaker 2: I tend to trust artists who can draw. Actually, I

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Speaker 2: was telling Gordon this the other day. There's not one

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Speaker 2: artist in our show who does know how to draw,

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Speaker 2: And the fundamental strength of that is that it's they

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Speaker 2: know how to deal with intimacy. A painting a big

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Speaker 2: painting or medium sized painting can be a show, a

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Speaker 2: display of relaxation, technique, a lot of things at once.

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Speaker 2: But a drawing is really you. It's a form of writing.

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Speaker 2: And if they can draw, they can conquer the world. Really,

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Speaker 2: because they have the intimacy, they have the technique, they

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Speaker 2: have the relaxation, they have the imagination. It all comes

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Speaker 2: together in the smaller universe that they're creating.

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Speaker 1: Well, then maybe should talk more than about the show,

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Speaker 1: because I thought, I saw those two Pacabia drawings and

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Speaker 1: I thought, you know, just so everything the photographs and

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Speaker 1: how compelling walking in I really urge anyone who is

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Speaker 1: listening to this wherever you are, to get on a

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Speaker 1: plane or a boat.

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Speaker 2: Meet you.

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Speaker 1: I meet her there and Bert I was very compelled

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Speaker 1: by the first slide show. I didn't go upstairs first,

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Speaker 1: Yes and podcasts. This made me very, very I was

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Speaker 1: a very emotional, wonderful thing of what have we done?

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Speaker 1: And then to the dignity and the elegance from the

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Speaker 1: small shock of the architecture to the way the women

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Speaker 1: were dressed.

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Speaker 2: It's a it's a profound relationship to women of color.

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Speaker 2: Throughout her life and in her writing that was again

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Speaker 2: something that was very important for me to explore. So

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Speaker 2: we have wonderful artists Sommer Critchlow, who has given us

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Speaker 2: those beautiful drawings near the paccapias that you've seen. This show.

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Speaker 2: To me, even though there are big works in it,

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Speaker 2: everything feels so intimate to me in terms of what

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Speaker 2: is able to to cultivate this atmosphere Jamaica and Kaid,

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Speaker 2: who's the great antigue and American novelist, said that she

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Speaker 2: was the mother of us all gene and so it

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Speaker 2: was important for me to end the show with the

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Speaker 2: writers who have meant a great deal. So Nipaul is

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Speaker 2: one of the first people to write about her. A

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Speaker 2: lot of almost all the writing about her, they all

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Speaker 2: talk about, I think, the ways in which she freed

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Speaker 2: them as artists, so that this question that you brought

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Speaker 2: up earlier about technique and freedom she gave them. She

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Speaker 2: opened the door to talk about the Caribbean and to

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Speaker 2: talk about displacement and to talk about and use your

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Speaker 2: imagination about the place that you're from, which can often

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Speaker 2: feel like it's kind of separate from the rest of

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Speaker 2: the world. Right people go to Caribbean for vacation or whatever,

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Speaker 2: and then they go back to their unquote real loss.

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Speaker 2: I think someone like Jamaica, who's written powerfully about that

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Speaker 2: relationship of tourism in her book A Small Place, is

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Speaker 2: on the side of us understanding the ways in which

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Speaker 2: this literature of the Caribbean has great meaning and value.

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Speaker 2: So Derek Walcott, his great poem Jen Reese, is in

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Speaker 2: the show. And Carol Phillips cass Phillips has written a

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Speaker 2: novel about her returning to Dominica. So there's this way

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Speaker 2: in which she is claimed by the very people she

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Speaker 2: was forbidden to know in a racially structured environment. And

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Speaker 2: isn't it amazing that it's ended up? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Tell us about growing up in your house. What did

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Speaker 1: your mother?

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Speaker 2: Yes? What she could?

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Speaker 1: And I was also very moved by your mother because great,

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Speaker 1: how you wish that she could have lived long enough

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Speaker 1: so that you could take care I thought that was

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Speaker 1: something that we through food and through cooking. Oh my god,

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Speaker 1: we take care of each other.

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, is that part of your childhood? So

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Speaker 2: as we got older, she would try to experiments. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and she made it. She she tried to make a

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Speaker 2: beef burger.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's a hard thing to make, and.

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Speaker 2: My mother didn't drink or anything. There you go and

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Speaker 2: it's too much, and then it's rancid right when you're

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Speaker 2: when you cook it, it becomes vinegar basically in a way.

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Speaker 2: And yes and my brother not looking at each other,

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Speaker 2: and she's like, oh, isn't she's pretending that it's delicious.

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Speaker 2: And from her I understood that food was love and

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Speaker 2: that you should never in a way criticize what you're given,

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Speaker 2: because she did this with such love, and she was

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Speaker 2: such a hard worker, and she didn't, you know, have

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Speaker 2: a lot of time. My brother and I in fact

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Speaker 2: started cooking. We would go to the library and get cookbooks,

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Speaker 2: and that's how I learned bread. Like I was eleven

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Speaker 2: and my brother was nine, and we would go and

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Speaker 2: we would make bread for her so that it was

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Speaker 2: ready when she came home. It was but so much fun,

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Speaker 2: and I loved the smell of yeast, and I thought

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Speaker 2: I would make one dish this Christmas that I loved

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Speaker 2: that she made. It was coconut bread. It's not difficult,

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Speaker 2: but to get it right, what is it? It's like

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Speaker 2: a cake and a bread at the same time. She

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Speaker 2: would make this, so then you get the coconuts and

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Speaker 2: we would break the coconuts and the water and grinding,

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Speaker 2: you know, with the crater, and then she'd get the

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Speaker 2: kids to grate the coconuts.

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Speaker 1: Something your mother made the coconut bread, and.

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Speaker 2: Her mother had made it. And then she also made

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Speaker 2: fish cakes, and she made something called blood pudding, which

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Speaker 2: is very English. Actually it's like blood sausage. Anyway, my

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Speaker 2: plan this Christmas is to approximate the cocaine and the

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Speaker 2: fish cakes and bring them. I'll bring them to you.

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Speaker 1: Did your mother was she born and.

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Speaker 2: My mother was born first generation, so my grandmother, but

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Speaker 2: my grand my mother had an aunt whom she loved

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Speaker 2: and was very close to their aunt b and she

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Speaker 2: was the big cook, and so my mother would cook

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Speaker 2: with her.

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Speaker 1: So they kind of brought the food with the Absolutely

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Speaker 1: you didn't go out and have hamburgers and French fries.

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Speaker 2: Oh, on Fridays we could go. She would give us,

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Speaker 2: well you know how you're working with she would give

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Speaker 2: us five dollars. My brother and I we could We

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Speaker 2: lived in Flatbush, which was a big West Indian Jewish

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Speaker 2: community in Brooklyn, and we could go get almost always

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Speaker 2: a West Indian takeout. No, no, no, but with my father

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Speaker 2: that was a whole other cuisine. My father really introduced

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Speaker 2: me to the world in a very profound way. He

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Speaker 2: was not mindful of how segregated New York could be,

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Speaker 2: so we went to eat in Germantown.

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Speaker 1: He liked West German Town in New.

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Speaker 2: Yorkville, so like in the eighties and the East Side.

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Speaker 2: He loved foreign films and any kind of cuisine that

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Speaker 2: he didn't make. So he was the first person I

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Speaker 2: ever saw mixtake Tartar. For instance. He loved this restaurant

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Speaker 2: in the village Emilias. We would go there quite a

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Speaker 2: bit on the weekends. He would take us around, my

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Speaker 2: brother and I. We would eat German food. We would

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Speaker 2: go to Kats's Delicatessen and have astronomy.

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Speaker 1: To your son and an.

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Speaker 2: Army it's still up the sign. And if I feel

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Speaker 2: terrible and have a terrible cold, I go to Cats

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Speaker 2: and have mults of.

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Speaker 1: Ale souit chicken soup for the penicillin. So you did

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Speaker 1: have food. Food was a part of your culture. Was

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Speaker 1: eating at with your dad who didn't live with you,

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Speaker 1: right to do that dad thing, or the divorced parents

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Speaker 1: taking you out to restaurants. Did you love that?

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Speaker 2: I love going to You know, it's funny, Ruthie. I

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Speaker 2: realized how much she must have structured this relationship after

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Speaker 2: my mother died. I was like, oh my god. She

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Speaker 2: made him have a structure with us, and that he

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Speaker 2: had to come on Friday and no Saturday, and we

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Speaker 2: would go out to the park, or we would go

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Speaker 2: somewhere and then we would have a big lunch together.

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Speaker 1: So in a restaurant.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes we go all the way up to sheep

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Speaker 2: Said Bay and have seafood. Or often he liked to

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Speaker 2: go into the city, which meant you would take a

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Speaker 2: bus over the Williamsburg Bridge and we would just get off.

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Speaker 2: And so a lot of times he would take us

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Speaker 2: to the library and walk around the forty second Street

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Speaker 2: library or Brooklyn Heights was another favorite place, to esplanade

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Speaker 2: and he would bring us watercolors and paths and we

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Speaker 2: would sketch while he read the paper.

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Speaker 1: Well that's a kind of memory of food and parenting.

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Speaker 1: And she was amazing when you went off.

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Speaker 2: She was little but mighty.

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Speaker 1: When you were Columbia because you chose a university that

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Speaker 1: was in your hometown. Was did you but you lived

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Speaker 1: on campus, but was home.

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Speaker 2: It was. It was weird. It's an interesting story. So

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Speaker 2: when I was sixteen, I went to Purchase Sunny Purchase,

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Speaker 2: which was a big arts school, and the story was

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Speaker 2: that my mother took me one of my sisters, her

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Speaker 2: husband drove us, and I remember we got into the room.

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Speaker 2: I put the suitcase on the bed, and she opened

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Speaker 2: the suitcase and she started to unpack the suitcase to

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Speaker 2: put things in drawers. And I took her hand and

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Speaker 2: I said, ma, And she realized she had to stop,

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Speaker 2: let go. It was profound and she had to stop

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Speaker 2: and let me suffer or have joy whatever. But she

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Speaker 2: couldn't buffer the world anymore. Anyway. I missed her so terrible.

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Speaker 2: I got strap throats and so fell apart and went

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Speaker 2: back home. So and she never questioned that. And then

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Speaker 2: when she was moving to Atlanta, her sister's moved down there,

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Speaker 2: she said, you can only stay in New York if

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Speaker 2: you go to school.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It was one of the few demands she's ever made.

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Speaker 2: And that's when I want to see.

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Speaker 1: You applied to Columbia.

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Speaker 2: Went yes, some amazing people I heard it.

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Speaker 1: Did, and you went. You were thrust into the world

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Speaker 1: of sort of downtown and villages.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and that's some incredible people.

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Speaker 1: Were restaurants feature of what you did. Well, there was

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Speaker 1: no money.

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Speaker 2: Well, you go to parties and you eat. But the

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Speaker 2: two there was a place that was delicious on Fourth

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Speaker 2: Street and Second Avenue that was Ukrainian, not Vasilka, but

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Speaker 2: the other place. So you get a big chunk of

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Speaker 2: hola bread and peace suit. And then if you had

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Speaker 2: a little bit more money, you could go up to

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Speaker 2: b an H Dairy which was the Kosher restaurant, and

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Speaker 2: you could have pancakes or latkas. So it was a

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Speaker 2: big Eastern European in Jewish community where you could eat

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Speaker 2: substantially for very little money.

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Speaker 1: And well you will mostly Solidari people kind of would

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Speaker 1: leave apartments in a month if they didn't like it

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Speaker 1: was a it was a very wild place.

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Speaker 2: It was a long time. So let's say I left

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Speaker 2: Brooklyn in the early eighties and it was pretty lawless

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Speaker 2: for a long time.

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Speaker 1: I guess, coming out of the seventies, coming out of Vietnam,

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Speaker 1: coming out of when when was the when was the

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Speaker 1: age era.

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Speaker 2: Eight two ninety five.

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Speaker 1: You've written a lot about that, Yes, I have talk

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Speaker 1: about that.

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Speaker 2: Well, it was just devastating in terms of it's hard

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Speaker 2: Ruthie to get younger people to understand that. It was

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Speaker 2: like kind of science fiction that you know, you'd be

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Speaker 2: chatting with someone one day and then they would be gone.

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Speaker 2: And the sad things for some people that families abandoned them.

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Speaker 2: That'sible didn't know what to do with the bodies. They

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Speaker 2: would dump them in garbage bags, and it was a

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Speaker 2: It was a horrifying period. But I think a lot

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Speaker 2: of I think it sped up intimacy, It sped up

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Speaker 2: into yes, that it taught you that the value of

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Speaker 2: friendship was something to value, you know, and not to

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Speaker 2: take for granted.

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Speaker 1: Ever, so recently I saw on television course line. You know,

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Speaker 1: I just look at something like that, and you think,

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Speaker 1: I bet every one of those beautiful dancers died.

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Speaker 2: I think there may be, I guess because they had

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Speaker 2: the fiftieth anniversary, and I think they're only like two

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Speaker 2: or of the men.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people, And I don't know if you

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Speaker 1: feel that way. Was I see that food being able

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Speaker 1: to drink good wine, eat good food, cook good ingredients.

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Speaker 1: It was almost a measure of their success. Measure your

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Speaker 1: success by you know, the house you live in the

359
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,919
Speaker 1: clothes you wear or the trips you can take. But

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Speaker 1: you might also measure it in your in the way

361
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Speaker 1: you can eat. And was there a point when you

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Speaker 1: realized that you could?

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Speaker 2: Because everything I think I've heard it something from my father.

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Speaker 2: You're bringing up wonderful love feelings for him. He was

365
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 2: a difficult person. But my mother used to be in

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Speaker 2: a state by how much money he spent outside in restaurants.

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Speaker 2: I have inherited that from my father and didn't care

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Speaker 2: how much I spent if we were having a good time.

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Speaker 2: So when I moved to Tribeca, the odeon became my

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Speaker 2: living and I would meet people at the and I

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Speaker 2: had I don't think I even had a bank account, Ruthie,

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Speaker 2: but if I earned some A wonderful friend of mine

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Speaker 2: at another gallery, remember she was working for gegos In,

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Speaker 2: and I had written something, and she said, oh, where

375
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Speaker 2: can we mail the check? And I said, would you

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Speaker 2: mind meeting me at the check? I couldn't even wait

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Speaker 2: for the post, and she said, and she remembers that,

378
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Speaker 2: she said, I was very kind, and I met her

379
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Speaker 2: at the oudeing. They they would cash the chat and

380
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 2: sometimes they'd let you run of a tab, not much,

381
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Speaker 2: but I could pay them back and then start another tab.

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Speaker 2: So I truly inherited that kind of it's an extension

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Speaker 2: of your home feeling from my father.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I lived in Paris. We used to look

385
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Speaker 1: when he was doing the property. I promised you every

386
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Speaker 1: one had checks and then you had those stubs, you know,

387
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 1: we always forgot to fill in the stub. But I

388
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Speaker 1: was probably ninety nine percent of the checks to a restaurant.

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Speaker 1: It was always around food, that's right. We basically just

390
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Speaker 1: somewhere in Paris. We're going to whatever we have, that's right,

391
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Speaker 1: eating and going Outcause also, let's think about going to

392
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Speaker 1: bed at night. You're going to bed at night, do

393
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,119
Speaker 1: you ever think about what you're going to eat the

394
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Speaker 1: next day? Or when you wake up in the morning,

395
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Speaker 1: do you think about what you've met?

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Speaker 2: Tell Actually, interestingly, they've been very generous at the Michael

397
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 2: Werner Gallery. And because of jetlag, you wake up at

398
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:29,959
Speaker 2: hours and there is a wonderful night waiter at this

399
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 2: at the Beaumont Hotel. And he is so sweet and shy,

400
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 2: but he just laughs at my or he's chuckling a

401
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 2: little bit when he puts the train down. Because he

402
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,879
Speaker 2: may have two iced teas, please a bowl of berries?

403
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 2: Do you have a spacon? Like it's sort of like

404
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,239
Speaker 2: that kind of jet lagging thing. And he comes and

405
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 2: he says, oh, no problem, sir, and he brings the dishes.

406
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,400
Speaker 2: And I realized that it's it's something I've gotten from

407
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Speaker 2: my father, that it's a connection to the home, that

408
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 2: if you meet a server who's gracious to you, that

409
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,120
Speaker 2: they become your friend and you ask about their family

410
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 2: and they ask you, and so it's always been an

411
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Speaker 2: extension of my home. I had an editor early on

412
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Speaker 2: in The New Yorker, and she would say, she said,

413
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 2: but you don't make any money, how do you go?

414
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 2: And I said, it'll come, like it'll just come. And

415
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 2: it was something that I deeply inherited from my father

416
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 2: that it was I feel very relaxed in restaurants. Yeah,

417
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 2: you do because of him. That restaurant she'd been a rage.

418
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: Would Yeah, but you know, I watch it here. We

419
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: see I say to the waiters, you know, and we

420
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 1: may have our meetings or the servers or the all

421
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:48,479
Speaker 1: of us. To chefs, you never know what people you know,

422
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: what is their story of their table. So if somebody

423
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:52,719
Speaker 1: comes in and they I could take you in that

424
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 1: restaurant right now, and you see people having a great time.

425
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: They're all sitting there, but you don't know if yesterday

426
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 1: their dad died, you know, somebody was you know, lost

427
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 1: their job, whether celebrating a wedding or a birth of

428
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 1: a baby, or you know where they're going to break up.

429
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 2: Wonderful, beautiful story.

430
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 1: Every table has a story. And I'll tell you what.

431
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:20,880
Speaker 1: We won't have it in the podcast because I've told

432
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 1: you a million times, which is that a man came

433
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 1: in once and called us before he's coming, and he said,

434
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,440
Speaker 1: I'm going to propose tonight, so would you please write

435
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: on the chocolate cake will you marry me? So we

436
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 1: thought that's so lovely, and so we wrote will you

437
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,719
Speaker 1: marry me on the top of the cake. And after

438
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: their first course, he came up to the to those

439
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: kitchen he said, cancel the cake.

440
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 2: Whoa?

441
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: And we always what was it?

442
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 2: What happened? What happened? She said, you know?

443
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:58,400
Speaker 1: And and also people do very again, have often said

444
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: very private things in a public space. So if they

445
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 1: are going to farre somebody, are they're going to announce

446
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 1: an affair or they're going to they will do it

447
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: in a public space, so he kind of regulates your behavior.

448
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: You can't throw a fork at somebody, and you know.

449
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 1: So I think it is interesting the dynamic and maybe

450
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 1: your father taking you to restaurants because he loved them,

451
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 1: but maybe he wanted you to be in a safe

452
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: place where you think.

453
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 2: I think you're completely correct. I think that him showing

454
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 2: these places was as much as the world that he

455
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 2: could show us, right, I mean, I don't think my

456
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 2: father got in a plane until he was in his

457
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 2: late sixties to visit my sister in Saint Thomas. So

458
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 2: he was very interested in the world. How do you

459
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 2: show your children in the world. You don't have the means,

460
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 2: but you want to take them places. Well, you can

461
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 2: take them to a great restaurants, you can expose them

462
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 2: to film. I remember him taking us to see The Passenger, and.

463
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 1: That's so interesting.

464
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 2: He was a very weird guy, but it was but.

465
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 1: He was going to see the Passenger.

466
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 2: He was I can see why she was interested in her.

467
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 2: As I get older, I have.

468
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,479
Speaker 1: A friend whose mother brought him up with that no

469
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: matter who walked in the house, whether it was somebody

470
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: fixing the dish washer, or invited guests within something like

471
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: I think eighty seconds they had to ask something to

472
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: eat or drink, you know, And I think what it

473
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 1: means is the way of stopping what you're doing and saying,

474
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: I'm paying attention to you.

475
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 2: This is interesting. My mother always said, and I passed

476
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 2: this on to people. She said, I never went to

477
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 2: my mother's house empty hand, and even if it was

478
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 2: an onion or an orange, I would bring it. And

479
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 2: so it's that kind of homage to the elder.

480
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: And so it goes back to the idea that you know,

481
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: as you said, that food is love. You know, food,

482
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: I never criticize it. It's a way of saying, you know,

483
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 1: whether and whether it's thing I don't love you. Yeah,

484
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: if you say, but you know, as you say, a

485
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: critic I have a friend who was we were having

486
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: and I don't mind. We actually like it if somebody

487
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: sends their food back if they didn't like it, and

488
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: we never argue. You know, they say my chicken is overcooked,

489
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: my sea bass is too burnt, or whatever, and you

490
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 1: just say thank you, and you they're right, you know,

491
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: whatever they say, you kind of empathize with if I

492
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: were you, you know, I would feel that same way

493
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: or whatever I think. If we say that food is

494
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: something other than teaching you about a culture, it's other

495
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 1: than if it's an invitation, if it's stopping you from

496
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: being hungry and being in pain, it also is comfort.

497
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: It's comfort to in sustinance. And so if I were

498
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: to say to you as my last or go on

499
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: and on or sort of final questions, is before we

500
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: go and have some substance before we eat with Katie

501
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: and everyone else and whatever they're cooking and the River

502
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: Cafe including a dover cell. If it was a comfort

503
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: for you and you need comfort, I hope you don't

504
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: need comfort to want you to be.

505
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 2: Happy.

506
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: If you do need comfort, is there something that you

507
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: would go to a memory of your mother's or something.

508
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 2: I would go to. They're called bakes and it's it's

509
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 2: like it's, you know, the Italian's fry bread, but these

510
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 2: are these are flat. They have baking soda and it's

511
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 2: with cinnamon and they're fried. They're little little dollops of

512
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 2: dough that are fry but with a lot of cinnamon

513
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 2: in them and then sprinkled with sugar. And that's what

514
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 2: I would eat.

515
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: You're gonna make me them something. Where would we have them?

516
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 2: Where I would have to because they're they're hot out

517
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 2: of the pans. So it's just a little bit of

518
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:56,239
Speaker 2: oil because they're not oily at all. So it's a

519
00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 2: batter with a lot of cinnamon and very simp bullflower

520
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:06,479
Speaker 2: water blah blah blah, fried very lightly. And we have

521
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 2: to make them in your kitchen because you want to

522
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 2: have the smells, okay, and you want to eat them

523
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 2: hot my kitchen.

524
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: Okay, we'll go back when you come to New York.

525
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: Let's do it, my friend.

526
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so lovely, thank you for this great experience.

527
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: Ruthie's Table four is proud to support Leukemia UK. Their

528
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: Cartwheel for a Cure campaign raises funds for vital research

529
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: and more effective and kinder treatments for a cute my

530
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: Lord Leukemia. Please donate and to do so search Cartwheel

531
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: for a Cure.

532
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 2: Ruthie's Table four was produced by Alex Boo and Zad

533
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 2: Rogers with Susanna Hislop, Daniel Naranjo Rodrigue and Bella Selini.

534
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: This has been an atomized production for i Heeart Meat