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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, many here just a quick announcement before today's episode.

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Speaker 1: No such thing is going to be publishing on Wednesdays.

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Speaker 1: Now stick around after the episode during the credit sequence,

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Speaker 1: where you will hear why, We've got a fun announcement.

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Speaker 1: But that's it for now. Enjoy today's episode. I'm Manny,

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Speaker 1: and this is no such thing, the show where we

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Speaker 1: settle our dumb arguments and yours by actually doing the

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Speaker 1: research on today's episode.

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Speaker 2: Is it just me?

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Speaker 1: Or are we sick of franchise movies?

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Speaker 3: I No, there's no no such thing. No touch, thank,

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Speaker 3: no touch, thank touch, thank touch thank.

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Speaker 1: Alright, boys, there are a lot of franchise films in

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Speaker 1: theaters right now. You've got the new Superman movie. You've

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Speaker 1: got the new Jurassic Park movie. You've got How to

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Speaker 1: Train Your Dragon, You've got the sequel to Megan M Threegan.

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Speaker 2: I'm looking at.

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Speaker 1: The now playing page on AMC Theaters dot com, and

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Speaker 1: I would say that at least half of the movies

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Speaker 1: on this page are franchise movies. But I'm gonna start

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Speaker 1: this episode by just kind of like explaining my relationship

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Speaker 1: to franchises, but more specifically, like comic book franchises. When

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Speaker 1: I was a kid, I read a good amount of

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Speaker 1: comic books. I was into pretty much all of the

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Speaker 1: Marvel characters that are now really popular. And even though

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Speaker 1: comics were technically popular right there was an entire market

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Speaker 1: and industry for that kind of stuff, I still wouldn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily tell people at school that I was reading comics,

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Speaker 1: right like it, they just weren't mainstream or cool. But

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Speaker 1: then film studios started using comic books as source material

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Speaker 1: for their movies. And now there's this giant Marvel cinematic

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Speaker 1: universe that has made it so that Marvel content is

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Speaker 1: just normal. Like, even if you actively don't like Marvel movies,

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Speaker 1: you still have seen many of them. They're just kind

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Speaker 1: of inescapable.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 1: Marvel movies were never like artistic oscar worthy endeavors, right like,

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Speaker 1: they were always like big dumb summer blockbuster exhibitions. But

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Speaker 1: early on in the MCU, they still felt like they

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Speaker 1: had like structure in decent filmmaking and character development.

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Speaker 2: They felt like good faith.

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Speaker 1: Attempts to tell stories. Fast forward, I don't know, ten

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Speaker 1: fifteen years, and it just is a lot harder to

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Speaker 1: feel like that about the movies that Marvel's putting out today,

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Speaker 1: and it's hard not to think about the contrast between

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Speaker 1: these kind of cool, interesting stories I was reading as

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Speaker 1: a kid and the you know, quote unquote slop that

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Speaker 1: we're getting today. A lot of people, myself included, we

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Speaker 1: just have fatigue.

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Speaker 4: Well, Marvel movies, I don't know them. Yeah, I feel

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Speaker 4: like me and though are similar in that, like not

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Speaker 4: really for us.

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Speaker 5: I like the Toobey Maguire first one. Oh yeah, that

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Speaker 5: I don't really I mean I could never you could

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Speaker 5: erase that, and I'm fine.

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Speaker 2: That's pretty much it.

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Speaker 1: And those are the for the listeners. Those are the

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Speaker 1: sam Rymy Spider Man films that.

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Speaker 4: Those were fun.

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Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, that was also like ten Yeah yeah.

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Speaker 2: Have you seen it since you were a kid?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 2: Maybe clips online.

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Speaker 1: I will maintain that the second Spider Man.

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Speaker 2: Still holds up.

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Speaker 5: I never saw Iron Man.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I saw the Avengers, but not the one I

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Speaker 4: saw the one when he killed everybody. Oh sorry spoilers.

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Speaker 2: That would have been Infinity War.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Black Panther I watched on a plane. I'm not

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Speaker 5: gonna say anything about that. That well, that was when

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Speaker 5: people that's when people were like, wow, this one's a

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Speaker 5: really good movie, and I was like, Okay, it's relative,

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Speaker 5: I guess. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The thing that differentiated Black Panther from the other Marvel

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Speaker 1: movies for me was like there there was, for the

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Speaker 1: first time, I think in a Marvel movie, there was

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Speaker 1: like thought put into why a villain would want to know,

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Speaker 1: why he would be motivated to do something.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, y'all sitting up here comfortable, must feel good. It's

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Speaker 6: about two billion people all over the world. It looks

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Speaker 6: like us, but their lives are a lot harder.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, you're right.

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Speaker 1: It's like you get to the end of the movie,

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Speaker 1: you're you're still like, this is a Marvel movie.

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Speaker 2: This is not like some step above.

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Speaker 1: It did feel the same caliber as the other Marvel movies,

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Speaker 1: but this there was a little bit of a difference

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Speaker 1: here where it was like, okay, yeah, finally there's like

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Speaker 1: an all black film. Yeah yeah, yeah, so there's like

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Speaker 1: some representation stuff that people valued a lot, but after

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Speaker 1: you respect that to be clear. But yeah, it was like,

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Speaker 1: even if it sucks, it's still finally we got one.

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Speaker 4: Yes. But superhero movies never really were the thing that

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Speaker 4: like for me, mostly because I struggle with the fact

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Speaker 4: that most of them don't feel like movies. They feel like, Okay,

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Speaker 4: we need to show some people fighting and we'll put

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Speaker 4: some stuff around that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, excuses to do that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, which is fine. But then I feel like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: we're at the point now where okay, we're just showing

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Speaker 4: up to watch the people fight. Why do I need

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Speaker 4: to know all this? Like I don't understand anything that's going.

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Speaker 5: On, even other franchises if we want to broaden it,

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Speaker 5: like you can watch most of the Mission Impossibles without

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Speaker 5: having seen the other one. I mean, I think this

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Speaker 5: is actually the problem with the newer ones is they

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Speaker 5: think you need to know all this stuff, which you don't.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: The last one was trash because they spend the entire

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Speaker 5: time referencing the past things when it doesn't matter because

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Speaker 5: none of this makes sense. Yeah, yeah, people are overthinking it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. It's interesting.

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Speaker 1: We've we've started to see like a marvel ification of

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Speaker 1: other franchises, where like, like you were saying, with Mission Impossible,

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Speaker 1: that started out with the first few movies being these

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Speaker 1: kind of cool international espionage flicks, and now they are

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Speaker 1: a lot more marvel fied, where there's recurring characters and

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Speaker 1: recurring villains and Ethan Hunt is basically a superhero now

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Speaker 1: and he's no longer trying to get these obscure weapons manufacturers.

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Speaker 1: He's instead literally saving the entire planet from exploding in

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Speaker 1: every film. And I just feel like Marvel has kind

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Speaker 1: of spurred a lot of this change in these kind

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Speaker 1: of big action movies.

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Speaker 5: John Wick. Now they're expanding that that. I haven't seen

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Speaker 5: Ballerina a John Wick story or whatever it is now.

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Speaker 5: I'll watch it eventually, but I feel like John Wicks

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Speaker 5: also had a bad downstream effect on other movies where

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Speaker 5: there's no just other franchises built off being the John

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Speaker 5: Wick style.

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Speaker 2: Right guy comes out of killer retirement?

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Speaker 5: Like, why is there a sequel to the Bob Odenkirk

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Speaker 5: john Wick ripoff? Yeah, it's like, yeah, there's really a

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Speaker 5: nobody too. That movie was fine and fun, Like I

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Speaker 5: enjoyed watching that, but it's like it's crazy. You see

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Speaker 5: any trailer for a movie and it's like, it's just

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Speaker 5: John Wick with this guy instead.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so we've done a lot of complaining about the

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Speaker 1: quality of movie franchise films lately, but it turns out

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Speaker 1: it's not just the quality of these films that are

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Speaker 1: on the decline. It's also their box office numbers.

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Speaker 2: Hate to keep.

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Speaker 1: Using Marvel as an example here, but according to outlets

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Speaker 1: Variety and The Rap, the Marvel Cinematic Universe is just

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Speaker 1: on a numbers decline, most recently with Captain America, Brave

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Speaker 1: New World, and the Thunderbolts movie just not living up

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Speaker 1: to expectations, which is kind of a trend for this

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Speaker 1: latest phase of the MCU. And a quick stat here

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Speaker 1: from Variety just to drive the point home. Before twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty so pre Pandemic, nineteen out of twenty two Marvel

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Speaker 1: Cinematic Universe films made at least five hundred million dollars globally,

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Speaker 1: but since then only six out of thirteen films have

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Speaker 1: reached that benchmark. Obviously, COVID must have played a role

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Speaker 1: in those first couple of years of the pandemic, but

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Speaker 1: I'm not so sure that can be used as an

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Speaker 1: explanation today. I'll include those articles from Variety and The

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Speaker 1: Wrap in our substack for this episode. But before we

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Speaker 1: get to our expert, I wanted to ask you to

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Speaker 1: what is your take on this? Why do you think

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Speaker 1: these movie franchises are on a financial decline?

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Speaker 4: My take is I think they're getting too complicated, and

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Speaker 4: I think they're by getting so complicated, you're ruining the

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Speaker 4: whole point of a Marvel movie, which is like you

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Speaker 4: just show up. It's fun for the family, it's a

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Speaker 4: popcorn film. You don't have to think. Everything is just

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Speaker 4: kind of right there in front of you. You know,

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Speaker 4: like there's nothing you have to like put, you know,

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Speaker 4: go talk to your friends about it, do homework. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 4: like you can, like the Nerds always did that, and like,

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Speaker 4: but like you could show up knowing nothing and enjoy it.

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Speaker 4: And I feel like now we're at the point where,

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Speaker 4: like my mom can't just show up and watch a

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Speaker 4: Marvel movie because she's just gonna be asking me the

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Speaker 4: entire time and what's happening.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really good point. Don't make me do

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Speaker 1: homework to see Paul.

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Speaker 4: Not a Marvel movie.

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Speaker 5: And I also think just generally, it's like you had

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Speaker 5: a good run, like things only last so long before

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Speaker 5: you kind of need a break.

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Speaker 2: There's obviously an.

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Speaker 5: Appetite for that sort of stuff, for superheroes and these

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Speaker 5: sorts of things. Yeah, but like you can only do

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Speaker 5: so much with one.

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Speaker 1: You just one time, you just don't want it to

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Speaker 1: feel cheap when you're watching it. Like I remember when

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Speaker 1: the Star Wars prequels came out, and I'm a bit

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Speaker 1: of a prequels defender.

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Speaker 2: I will do it on MOS.

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Speaker 1: You will try, Like, did those movies absolutely suck ass?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 1: But the reason, but the reason I think they are

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Speaker 1: so much more rewatchable than the new Star Wars trilogy

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Speaker 1: is that there was a vision and there was compelling

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Speaker 1: enough reason to tell that story. Those movies ended up

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Speaker 1: not being good for a bunch of different reasons, but

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Speaker 1: I think they're infinitely better, or at least more rewatchable

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Speaker 1: than the sequels, which got produced explicitly to sell toys

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Speaker 1: and get people to Disneyland. It's just so obvious when

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Speaker 1: content is naturally developed versus content that is totally forced.

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Speaker 2: I have a pitch for Star Wars.

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Speaker 5: They should make a movie that's just and tell me

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Speaker 5: if they did this so I can watch it. But

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Speaker 5: a movie where they're just in the cantina from the

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Speaker 5: original movies and just those guys hanging out doing you know,

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Speaker 5: gambling and stuff. Get like Jim Jarmuscher, Kevin Smith or something.

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Speaker 5: Though I'd be happy to write it.

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Speaker 1: All right, it was good to hear why you two

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Speaker 1: think people are becoming fatigued by franchise movies. But after

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Speaker 1: the break we're gonna get some real answers from Walt Ticki.

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Speaker 1: He's an executive editor over at Sherwood News, but more

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Speaker 1: importantly for us, he's the author.

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Speaker 2: Of You Are What You Watch?

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Speaker 1: How movies and TV affect everything.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back in a bit. All right, we're back.

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Speaker 1: Before the break, we established that people are getting tired

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Speaker 1: of franchise movies. We use Marvel as an example, but

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Speaker 1: that's not the only one. I think people are tired

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Speaker 1: of franchises in general, and so I wanted to talk

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Speaker 1: to Walticky, author of You Are What You Watch, to

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Speaker 1: figure out why. Before we talk about the decline of

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Speaker 1: franchise movies, I wanted to ask Walt about the Incline,

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Speaker 1: right like, I wanted to figure out how they got popular.

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Speaker 1: And to my surprise, it turns out that franchise storytelling

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Speaker 1: is like an ancient practice.

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Speaker 3: Franchise storytelling is the oldest kind of storytelling that we have.

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Speaker 3: If you want one of the first franchises that you've

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Speaker 3: probably been familiar with, the Odyssey, the Iliad and the

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Speaker 3: ideod Right, you've got the first installment in the Iliad,

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Speaker 3: you've got the sequel in the Odyssey, and then you've

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Speaker 3: got the spinoff that another studio took on later in

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Speaker 3: the India. You have these stories that we keep coming

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Speaker 3: back to that we are obsessed with these heroes, these

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Speaker 3: individuals that we like quite a bit. Right, it's not

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Speaker 3: just American Hollywood thing. It is a global thing, right.

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Speaker 3: Sherlock Holmes is a classic example of a character that

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Speaker 3: kept on getting installments done in their name, Like ancient

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Speaker 3: heroes like Hercules. There was this popular fella that they

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Speaker 3: did four canonical books about called Jesus that eventually lots

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Speaker 3: of other people took on books about, and so like,

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Speaker 3: at the end of the day, you have this just

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Speaker 3: being a fairly integral way that we tell stories. Like

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Speaker 3: recognizable characters, we like recognizable stories, We like recognizable plot lines,

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Speaker 3: plotlines that articulate things about how the world changes and

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Speaker 3: how we understand them.

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Speaker 1: So you know, of course I knew that like the

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Speaker 1: Odyssey and the Iliad were related, and like I just

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Speaker 1: I don't know why I'd never thought.

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Speaker 2: About those as franchise, but like it kind of makes sense.

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Speaker 1: It's like Homer probably wrote the second one because people

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Speaker 1: like the first one, right, I don't know, like I

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Speaker 1: don't know going on back then.

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Speaker 2: Yo ho, we need the second one dropping.

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Speaker 1: The kind of takeaway here being that like, of course

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Speaker 1: we're all we all like when we recognize characters and

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Speaker 1: stories from previous iterations.

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Speaker 4: That makes sense to me that you know, like you're familiar,

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Speaker 4: you're comfortable with it, like it's a it's a good

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Speaker 4: entry point. But this is the issue I have with

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Speaker 4: the Marvel stuff. Now it's like, I'm going to watch

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Speaker 4: Captain America and who the hell? Now this is a

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Speaker 4: different there's a different guy. What's happening? I got there's

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Speaker 4: the thing I'm you're familiar with. There's I'm completely thrown

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Speaker 4: off within the first five minutes in a movie. So like,

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Speaker 4: the reason that we like these things is immediately dismiss

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Speaker 4: in undermined in some way.

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Speaker 2: The whole is read now, yes, come on, the fuck.

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Speaker 6: He's not Mark Ruffalo.

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Speaker 2: Captain America's black.

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Speaker 1: So we've learned that franchise storytelling is actually like a

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Speaker 1: byproduct of human nature to an extent, we just like

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Speaker 1: doing it. But let's fast forward several thousands of years

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Speaker 1: and figure out how franchise movies specifically became popular.

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Speaker 3: There's this popular perception that the only thing that people

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Speaker 3: in Hollywood care about is making money. And this is close,

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Speaker 3: but it is wrong because the main thing that people

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Speaker 3: care about in Hollywood is not losing money. And those

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Speaker 3: are two different incentive structures. Right, making money, you know,

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Speaker 3: you have a very very high upside. But if you fail,

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Speaker 3: then you lose money, then you're out of a job.

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Speaker 3: People lose their job all the time for that reason. Right,

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Speaker 3: if you lost money on a movie, if you make

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Speaker 3: a twenty percent return on a movie, maybe it's not

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Speaker 3: you know, huge, not cataclysmic, you're not you know, getting

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Speaker 3: a star on the Walk of Fame, but you keep

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Speaker 3: your job. And so the incentive structure, you know, particularly now,

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Speaker 3: particularly as these companies are now publicly traded, right, all

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Speaker 3: the studios are publicly traded corporations, is they would much

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Speaker 3: rather have reliable returns then they would have, you know,

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Speaker 3: very big hits and misses. And this is this is

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Speaker 3: a shift, right, This is a shift from the way

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Speaker 3: that studios had operated in the past. Particularly you know,

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Speaker 3: if you look at the New Hollywood era, if you

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Speaker 3: look at the era when the studios were backed by

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Speaker 3: financiers who, like you know, they weren't publicly traded. They

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Speaker 3: were just backed by rich guys who were like, this

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Speaker 3: is a really great way to make money. They were

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Speaker 3: willing to take more risks, and they were willing to

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Speaker 3: do more interesting things just because it was an emergent

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Speaker 3: medium and just because they were accountable frankly only to themselves.

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Speaker 3: And as a result, you were able to make these wagers.

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Speaker 3: And yes, they were still basing things on pre existing IP.

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Speaker 3: They would option books all the time and make them

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Speaker 3: into movies, but you were if you look at the

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Speaker 3: starting point for a lot of franchises, you talk about

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Speaker 3: the sixties, seventies and eighties, right, And the reason for that,

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Speaker 3: in no small part was that they were not as

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Speaker 3: accountable to shareholders as modern day studios are, and shareholders

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Speaker 3: prefer reliable profits over very volatile quarters. Now that the

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Speaker 3: shareholder incentive is to get reliable returns, you have seen

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Speaker 3: people become really really entrenched in franchise related filmmaking, whether

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Speaker 3: that's reboot sequels or you know, just any kind of

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Speaker 3: continuation of pre existing IP.

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Speaker 1: So I of course knew that like the proliferation of

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Speaker 1: franchise films was mostly due to money, like is the

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Speaker 1: best way for people to make money, But I never

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Speaker 1: thought about it being a risk assessment. I never thought

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Speaker 1: about Actually it's more about not losing money than it

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Speaker 1: is about making money. And that's why we're probably saying

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Speaker 1: fewer and fewer like original novel ideas.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, just depressing. You look at the great movies of before,

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Speaker 5: like the seventies, like not saying where it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 5: just some rich guy with the studio funding things and

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Speaker 5: some are gonna be good and some are gonna be bad,

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Speaker 5: versus today where it's just like one, we find one

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Speaker 5: thing that works and just keep doing that over and

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Speaker 5: over and over and over and over. Yeah, it's like

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Speaker 5: very lowest common denominator to just grow and grow as

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Speaker 5: much as you can, versus like at least having some

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Speaker 5: sort of shot at making something interesting and good, right

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Speaker 5: that also could make you a lot of money.

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Speaker 1: All Right, it's time to get to the question at hand.

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Speaker 1: Why are these movies actually on the decline? Are we

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Speaker 1: just burnt out or is there something else going on

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Speaker 1: here that's after the break? Good?

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Speaker 2: Nice?

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Speaker 4: Huh?

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Speaker 5: That was good stuff.

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Speaker 2: Keep them coming back.

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Speaker 4: I guess I gotta sit through these days.

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Speaker 1: All right, we're back before the break. We heard from

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Speaker 1: Walt Hickey, author of.

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Speaker 2: You Are What You Watch.

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Speaker 1: We learned that franchise storytelling is an ancient practice. We

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Speaker 1: learned that studios are incentivized to do franchise films essentially

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Speaker 1: because they're more beholden to shareholders who are beholden to profits.

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Speaker 1: And we learned that audiences love cinematic universes essentially because

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Speaker 1: they love a relationship with IP. If all of these

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Speaker 1: things are true, why are franchise films on the decline?

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Speaker 1: Waltz identified three reasons for why this is. Reason Number one,

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Speaker 1: franchises have exhausted the best of the source material.

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Speaker 3: The way that the studios very wisely perceived Marvel is

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Speaker 3: that Marvel Comics was an R and D operation that

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Speaker 3: went on for sixty years that tested at a very

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Speaker 3: very cheap rate all things considered, ideas and concepts and

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Speaker 3: characters that, as a result of the market conditions over

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Speaker 3: the course of the you know, sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties,

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Speaker 3: two thousands, were able to decisively determine what the best

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Speaker 3: possible stories from the best possible characters were, right, Spider

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Speaker 3: Man has a notoriously deep bench. Right, there's a reason

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Speaker 3: that the Sam Raimi movies hit some of the characters

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Speaker 3: and the villains that were the most iconic for Spider Man, right,

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Speaker 3: the X Men movies when they emerged on the scene.

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Speaker 3: There's a reason that they did the stories that they did. Right.

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Speaker 3: Days of Future Past was so high on the docket

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Speaker 3: because that's considered one of the best comic stories of

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Speaker 3: all time. Right, and so they're pulling from material that

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Speaker 3: has tried, tested, and approof. They're working with heaters, right,

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Speaker 3: they were pulling from the best. They were stealing from

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Speaker 3: the best. What have the past couple of years post

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Speaker 3: Endgame involved, They haven't been pulling from the comics in

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Speaker 3: as much of a direct way. Part of that's just

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Speaker 3: because some of these comics are weaker. Some of these

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Speaker 3: characters didn't have the iconic runs that you think if

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Speaker 3: you look at like the Black Widow movie, the Eternal's movie,

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Speaker 3: the Multiverse of Madness movie, Wakonda Forever, Quantumnia, Thunderbolts, even Marvels.

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Speaker 3: These were not there's no specific comic arc that these

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Speaker 3: are based on. They are not pulling off of the

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Speaker 3: Red Hot Fire that was some of the best comics

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Speaker 3: in the past sixty years. If you look at the

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Speaker 3: counterpoint though, like Deadpool and Wolverine was a very successful

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Speaker 3: comic before they made it into a movie, Like you know,

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Speaker 3: that was a proven rapport and so at the end

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Speaker 3: of the day, like I think that there's this issue

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Speaker 3: that they have where the well is running a bit

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Speaker 3: dry on the stories that are very meaningful and it's

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Speaker 3: causing them problems.

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Speaker 1: So the idea that franchise films, especially Marvel, kind of

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Speaker 1: ran out of source material makes a ton of sense

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Speaker 1: to me, and it reminds me of something that happened

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Speaker 1: in TV a few years back when Game of Thrones,

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Speaker 1: the TV show caught up to where Game of Thrones

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Speaker 1: the books were, and the TV show had to keep going,

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Speaker 1: but there was just an immediate, clear drop off in quality.

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Speaker 2: George R. R.

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Speaker 1: Martin, the author of the Game of Thrones books, told

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Speaker 1: the TV show runners what was gonna happen anyway, But

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Speaker 1: without that already written dialogue, without the plot structuring that

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Speaker 1: George R. Martin wrote in the previous books, the TV

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Speaker 1: show just was clearly different. It didn't have the same

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Speaker 1: weight all of a sudden, characters are traveling distances in

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Speaker 1: one scene that would have taken them an entire season

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Speaker 1: in previous seasons. It just felt a lot sloppier, and

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Speaker 1: even though the show looked better and better as the

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Speaker 1: seasons went on, similar to these Marvel films, I think

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Speaker 1: the difference in quality was so clear when there was

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Speaker 1: no longer source material to work from.

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Speaker 4: Well, and I think part of it too, right, It's like,

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Speaker 4: is a difference when you're focused on writing a story

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Speaker 4: for the sake of like writing a good story versus

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Speaker 4: like I need to write the story real quick so

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Speaker 4: that we could make a movie.

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Speaker 5: And then I think a good contrast is like Avatar. Clearly,

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Speaker 5: that's like James Cameronton about that for since he was

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Speaker 5: like ten or something. He has sketches of it, and

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Speaker 5: it's like, all right, it's crazy he's trying to do

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Speaker 5: these five movies or whatever, but like those feel very

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Speaker 5: connected and like still have a piece.

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Speaker 2: It was like a mission.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot more intention exactly. And it's

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Speaker 1: actually a perfect segue because Walt's second reason why franchise

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Speaker 1: movies are on the decline is a concept he's calling

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Speaker 1: exploitation versus innovation.

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Speaker 5: Let's go.

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Speaker 3: The studios aren't actually good at new ideas. The two

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Speaker 3: biggest properties that that Disney owns are Star Wars and Marvel,

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Speaker 3: and they were both bought right, Like, Marvel obviously was

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Speaker 3: its own fascinating little operation that they bought in, you know,

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Speaker 3: in the early two thousands. Star Wars was its own,

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Speaker 3: like a very successful independent film company, like all the

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Speaker 3: all the Star Wars prequels were independent films. He financed

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Speaker 3: them based on the toy sales. It was. It was

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Speaker 3: an incredible maneuver. Right, Disney hasn't really produced an in

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Speaker 3: house original franchise in a very long time, like Pixar,

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Speaker 3: again was an acquisition. But like if you really think

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Speaker 3: about it, you have to talk about like maybe Moan

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Speaker 3: and Frozen were the most successful in house Disney born

439
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,120
Speaker 3: and bread products and even those hypothetically they poached lim

440
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 3: Memo Miranda, they poached Robert Lopez and you know, to

441
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 3: do all the Disney songs and so like, these institutions

442
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,679
Speaker 3: are not necessarily R and D departments. They're acquisition vehicles

443
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 3: for R and D departments that can eventually be exploited

444
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 3: through toys parks, cruises and so and so the fact

445
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 3: that these things run out of gas should not be surprising.

446
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,359
Speaker 3: I guess it's kind of what I'm saying that this

447
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,399
Speaker 3: is the very nature of the corporate studio product is

448
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 3: antithetical to necessarily innovating on any level that is not exploitation.

449
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:39,880
Speaker 1: So a lot of this does seem to be kind

450
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 1: of pointing back to like the pitfalls of capitalism.

451
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 3: Right.

452
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: If it's true that like all these places need to

453
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,199
Speaker 1: make as much money as possible, then we're just going

454
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 1: to be stuck in that for a long time, I

455
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 1: think unless the incentive structure for filmmaking changes.

456
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 4: Now that makes sense in terms of the you know,

457
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 4: thinking about the studios and being able to innovate themselves.

458
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,400
Speaker 4: So they're just buying the innovators.

459
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wouldn't even say that they can't innovate if

460
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 1: they just there's no reason.

461
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 2: For them to inter when they can.

462
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 5: Quiet It's both right, it's like it's easier to do

463
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 5: this and safer and like safer and all that, because

464
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 5: it's like yeah, and just think like more broadly, like

465
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 5: how many directors or producers can make something by themselves,

466
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 5: Like you hear all the time about really famous, great

467
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 5: well esteemed directors who like can't get projects off the ground,

468
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 5: like even you know, scrasezy or something like. It seems

469
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 5: like basically Christopher Nolan is maybe the only person who

470
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 5: can do that or like you know, Paul Thomas Anderson

471
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 5: kind of just because like but like that's very that

472
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 5: feels more like the old model of just like yeah,

473
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 5: he just has like backers who will give him the

474
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 5: money to do whatever and it doesn't really matter how

475
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 5: the movie does. Nolan actually will make the billion dollars,

476
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 5: So yeah, he can do the crazy you know. It's

477
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 5: funny because he's doing the Odyssey. Yeah, so it's like,

478
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 5: well he's doing it for franchise.

479
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's great.

480
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 5: Like I can't come up with anything original, Chris, but

481
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 5: like he's one of the He's probably like the only

482
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,360
Speaker 5: person I can really think of to do it. Meanwhile,

483
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 5: David Fincher is in the trenches doing like Once upon

484
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 5: a Time in Hollywood two for Netflix's Ridiculous.

485
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 1: All Right. The third and final reason why movie franchises

486
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,879
Speaker 1: are on the decline, according to Wall Ticky, is just

487
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 1: trend cycles.

488
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 3: The trend cycle thing is like even within superheroes. We've

489
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 3: seen the trend cycle come back and reverse. You go

490
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 3: back to like the first Batman in the sixties, right,

491
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 3: that was a joke. Batman was a silly banana. He was,

492
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 3: you know, Adam West doing all that kind of stuff,

493
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 3: fun stuff. I am a little hungry, of course, Robin.

494
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 5: Even crime fighters must eat, and especially you you're a

495
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 5: growing boy and you need your nutrition.

496
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:56,879
Speaker 3: Then you get a more serious take from the Tim

497
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 3: Burton movies. And then again you have the Batman, the

498
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 3: animated series, which is again for children. Right. I was

499
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 3: one of these children and really enjoyed it. You have

500
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,360
Speaker 3: you know, this dark, pretty Batman, and then you have

501
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 3: a more aspirationle. It just comes and goes and comes

502
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 3: and goes. And so we are on the point of

503
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 3: the trend cycle where we are at the end of

504
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 3: one in the beginning of the other. It is not

505
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 3: shocking to me that the two big superhero releases the summer,

506
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 3: Superman and Fantastic Four are going back to a lot

507
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 3: more of an earnest feeling, right, They're going back to

508
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 3: that more like glinty eyed staring at the sun. We're

509
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 3: done snarking, and like snark is the era that brought

510
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 3: the MCU in. It has had significantly diminishing returns over

511
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,640
Speaker 3: the past couple of years, and I think that we

512
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 3: just have to see how that pendulum swings, because it

513
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 3: could very well work. The people who were eighteen when

514
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 3: Iron Man came out are in their mid thirties and

515
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 3: have kids, and maybe they want to see a movie

516
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,959
Speaker 3: about a family now, and so this really could Like

517
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 3: part of this is just the organic trend cycle and

518
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 3: how to be ruthless about it. So like those are

519
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 3: the things that are kind of fatiguing. I think, like

520
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 3: the exhaustion of this trend cycle, the just nature of exploitation,

521
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 3: and just the exhaustion of the material. But like I

522
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,120
Speaker 3: think that there's hope here, you know.

523
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it makes sense to trend cycles.

524
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: It's like, all right, the reason why I stop wearing

525
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: a shirt is because I've gotten used to it.

526
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 2: It's no longer providing a variety for me.

527
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: And I can see that easily happening with like Marvel movies,

528
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: where it's like, all right, I get it. It's been

529
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: fifteen years of the kind of like oh that just happened.

530
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, lines, he's right behind.

531
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 5: Me, isn't he.

532
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 1: So it's really easy to get tired of that. So

533
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 1: we got the three reasons why Walt thinks movie franchises

534
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: are on the decline.

535
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 2: They all make sense.

536
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 1: I did ask him, though, like what he thinks the

537
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,439
Speaker 1: future of franchise films will be.

538
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 3: Franchises have existed for thousands of years. They've become very

539
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 3: popular and central to a particular business model. Now that

540
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 3: is absolutely true. You can say a lot of things

541
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 3: about the film industry, but again, like they are rational

542
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 3: economic actors and audiences are rational economic actors. The film

543
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 3: industry is, in its own way ruthless. Right, Like if

544
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 3: a movie bombs, if a movie does bad, then they

545
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 3: don't make more of that movie anymore. If a movie

546
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:12,679
Speaker 3: does well, they make more of the movie. And I

547
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 3: think that they are not so beholden to the existing

548
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 3: model that you can see this absence of innovation. Right.

549
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 3: Marvel tends to do this by bringing in new filmmakers. Right.

550
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 3: They tend to try to get new blood into the

551
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 3: organization to see what works and then bring back the

552
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 3: folks who were most effective. There's a reason that like

553
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 3: and Or is like real hot right now, potentially gonna

554
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 3: win an Emmy is the most vibrant thing in Star

555
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 3: Wars yet, because they gave it to a filmmaker who

556
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 3: has a very specific vision about what he thought aught

557
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 3: to exist in Star Wars. And his answer was, we

558
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 3: should make the Battle of Algiers and Star Wars. And

559
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 3: it's a great answer, and like it kind of goes

560
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 3: back to like what Lucas was doing, because Lucas wasn't

561
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 3: trying to at least originally, he wasn't just trying to

562
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 3: make more Star Wars movies. He was trying to do like,

563
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 3: all right, I want to see if I make the

564
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 3: Viat Kong fuzzy, will America root for them? And in

565
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 3: the Return of the Jedi, like, the answer was hell,

566
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 3: oh yeah, man. Ultimately, any kind of genre filmmaking has

567
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 3: to stay on its toes and stay innovative and be

568
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 3: something new, because the one thing that audiences love more

569
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 3: than seeing something that they already love is seeing something

570
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 3: very novel.

571
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: Once again, Walt making a ton of sense there with

572
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: the importance of these franchise films to you know, maintain

573
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: a variety and a freshness as they move forward. That

574
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: is interesting to think about the kind of trend lately

575
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: where the studios are handing the reins over to more

576
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: auteur filmmakers.

577
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 2: What do you guys think of that?

578
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 4: I think it depends if the studios actually want to

579
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 4: let the auteurs do something interesting and new, versus like

580
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 4: I just need somebody to put their name on this

581
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 4: movie and hear out of parameters and you got to

582
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 4: work within that. I think that was the big issue

583
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 4: with the Barry Jenkins Lion King read yeah, right, where

584
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 4: it's like we want Barry Jenkins to do this movie,

585
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 4: but you have to do it in this particular way

586
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 4: and here's the script and like here's it parameters and

587
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 4: it's not very good.

588
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 5: Or like the woman who directed Nomadland. Yes, it's like

589
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 5: you see it all the time where it's like you

590
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 5: win the Oscar for this great original work you do

591
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 5: and then you're doing this other thing.

592
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 2: What does she do next?

593
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 5: Oh Chloe Chloe zoo oh yeah, and then that movie

594
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 5: did horribly, but it has it's like they get this

595
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 5: flashy name to do it. Like what do you even

596
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 5: do if you're directing a movie like that, like you

597
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 5: probably have barely any.

598
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and yeah it does.

599
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: It does seem to come down to the too, you

600
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: know something we've heard in comic books for a very

601
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: long time.

602
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 2: With great power. I'm not even going to finish it.

603
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm really sorry. Thanks for listening to No

604
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: Such Thing. Produced by Manny, Noah and Devin. This was

605
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: the first episode of season two, which we are happy

606
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: to announce is in collaboration with Kaleidoscope. Kaleidoscope is a

607
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: podcast production company. They have a ton of great shows

608
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 1: and we're so excited not just to be added to

609
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 1: their roster, but also to be working with them to

610
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: make even better episodes of No Such Thing. So, with

611
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: that said, this is a production of Kaleidoscope content. Our

612
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: executive producers are mangesh Hati Kadur and Kate Osborne. The

613
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: intro theme in the new outro theme is produced by

614
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: me Manny. Thank you to our guest Walt Hicky, author

615
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: of Who Are With You? Watch See You next time?

616
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 4: Such Thing