Speaker 1: M all right, welcome to a special edition of the
Speaker 1: State of the Lakers podcast. Today, we're going to focus
Speaker 1: on a bunch of stuff related to Stephan Lebron because
Speaker 1: he's been brought back to the forefront here ironically, even
Speaker 1: though the two of them haven't really had a legitimate
Speaker 1: playoff match up against each other, and what's this now
Speaker 1: almost four years? But I think Stephen A. Smith is
Speaker 1: one of the big guys who's kind of brought this
Speaker 1: to the forefront. But it's been a big topic in
Speaker 1: a bunch of different ways. Now. We had the weird
Speaker 1: interview where somebody said that Steph was the Michael Jordan
Speaker 1: of this era. We had the Bill Simmons podcast for
Speaker 1: him and Syrah, so he went all in on a
Speaker 1: couple of different topics related to whether or not step
Speaker 1: was the best player of the last ten years, and
Speaker 1: whether or not him and Lebron have had different different
Speaker 1: levels of impact on the game, changing the game of basketball. Um. So,
Speaker 1: the three main questions that I want to hit today
Speaker 1: in the step Lebron conversation is one, is Steph the
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan of this era? And then two, could Steph
Speaker 1: ever pass Lebron? And then last, how did Lebron and
Speaker 1: Steph change the game? Just kind of getting into that
Speaker 1: because there's a lot of people who think step step
Speaker 1: has changed the game, but Lebron hasn't. But Lebron has
Speaker 1: changed the game in a lot of ways. So I
Speaker 1: wanted to get into that as well. So let's start
Speaker 1: with this Michael Jordan's concept. So you know, obviously Steph
Speaker 1: is not the Michael Jordan of this era because he
Speaker 1: hasn't been better than Lebron James. That said, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't even think Lebron James has been the Michael
Speaker 1: Jordan of this era because there's a huge difference between
Speaker 1: the way that MJ dominated the league in the way
Speaker 1: that Lebron dominant dominated the league. Now, there's a couple
Speaker 1: of different elements to that, right, because MJ dominated the
Speaker 1: league in the nineties during an era where both Larry
Speaker 1: Bird and Magic Johnson had their careers cut short by
Speaker 1: on like unfortunate circumstances. Larry Bird throughout his back towing
Speaker 1: his driveway and French lack and and Magic Johnson got
Speaker 1: hib and in both cases, guys who in their late
Speaker 1: primes would have been able to go on a run
Speaker 1: to potentially derail Michael Jordan's championship contenders just never really
Speaker 1: got that chance, and so then you ended up with
Speaker 1: guys who were in a significantly lower tier all time
Speaker 1: trying to take titles off of m J. Guys like
Speaker 1: you know, Karl Malone, guys like Charles Barkley. And so
Speaker 1: part of that is you have to give credit to
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan's for being so much better than everybody in
Speaker 1: his era. That is a legitimate, uh testament to how
Speaker 1: good he was at the time. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: you know, you also have to factor in the fact
Speaker 1: that you didn't have a year like this year where
Speaker 1: you're looking at Lebron and Kevin Durant and Steph Curry
Speaker 1: and Nicola Yokich and Jana Santana Croompo all playing like
Speaker 1: super duper duper duper duper stars, like there's there never
Speaker 1: There hasn't been a season like that during the nineties
Speaker 1: that we could look back to and be like, here's
Speaker 1: a year where MJ dominated an unbelievably stacked top of
Speaker 1: the league. It just didn't happen. So again, you could
Speaker 1: choose to interpret that two ways. You can interpret it
Speaker 1: as MJ was just way better than everybody. So that's
Speaker 1: a credit to MJ or MJ took advantage of a
Speaker 1: downturn in talent in the NBA. There's a bunch of
Speaker 1: different ways to look at that, but Lebron, who has
Speaker 1: been by far the most dominant player of this era,
Speaker 1: even that dominance isn't the same type of dominance that
Speaker 1: you saw from Michael Jordan's. So that's why I compared
Speaker 1: them more to the Lebron step dynamic, to me, compares
Speaker 1: a lot more to the Magic Johnson Larry Bird rivalry
Speaker 1: that took place in the eighties. Now those two players
Speaker 1: are closer all time than Stephan Lebron are. I have
Speaker 1: Lebron to maybe one, depending on what they asked me.
Speaker 1: I have Steph right around number ten, whereas Bird and
Speaker 1: Magic are both in that four five range. So they're
Speaker 1: definitely closer to each other than Stephan Lebron were. But
Speaker 1: Stephan Lebron are definitely a lot closer to each other
Speaker 1: than Michael was to anybody that he played against in
Speaker 1: his era. So that's kind of what I was trying
Speaker 1: to say. A lot of people interpreted that tweet that
Speaker 1: I sent out as some sort of shot at Lebron.
Speaker 1: It wasn't at all. It's just the dynamic between Lebron
Speaker 1: and Steph it's very different now, uh than than the
Speaker 1: mj dynamic was in that era. But could could Steph
Speaker 1: be the Michael Jordan's this era? Absolutely not, because what
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan did in the nineties is kind of unprecedented
Speaker 1: in modern basketball. There hasn't been anybody in this era
Speaker 1: who has come close to that level of dominance, and
Speaker 1: that needs to be respected. That that phrase is somebody
Speaker 1: the Michael Jordan of this era just shouldn't be thrown
Speaker 1: out unless we have a player come into the league
Speaker 1: who is just monumentally better than everybody else in the game.
Speaker 1: That's what it would require to to receive that distinction. Okay,
Speaker 1: moving on to question number two. Could Steff ever pass Lebron?
Speaker 1: Of course you could. There's nothing saying that Steph. Couldn't,
Speaker 1: you know, rip off an MVP this year in the finals,
Speaker 1: MVP this year, and then come back next year and
Speaker 1: be an MVP again and win another NBA title and
Speaker 1: rip off two or three in a row, and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden you're looking at a guy who's got
Speaker 1: five or six titles and was definitively the best player
Speaker 1: on you know, multiple championship teams that he would certainly
Speaker 1: become a conversation, but he does have a long way
Speaker 1: to go. That's the important thing that you have to understand,
Speaker 1: and it's a lot easier said than done. Like it's
Speaker 1: it's it's one thing to look at the situation and
Speaker 1: be like, Okay, Steph is on arguably the best team
Speaker 1: in the league right now, and he's he's you know,
Speaker 1: in the conversation for m v P, although I think
Speaker 1: Kevin Durant has surpassed him in recent weeks because he
Speaker 1: hasn't been playing as well. But let's say, you know,
Speaker 1: it's just the the idea of step ripping off multiple
Speaker 1: m v P s and ripping off multiple titles at
Speaker 1: this point, it could happen, but it's a long shot.
Speaker 1: A lot of things have to break his way. He
Speaker 1: has to stay healthy, he has to avoid a physical decline.
Speaker 1: He needs to get something out of Andrew Wiggins. He
Speaker 1: needs to get something out of Jonathan Cominga and Jonathan
Speaker 1: and James Wiseman. He needs Draymond Green to not physically decline.
Speaker 1: He needs Klay Thompson to come back from this injury
Speaker 1: and to look like more or less what he was
Speaker 1: and before he got hurt. A lot of things have
Speaker 1: to break right for that to happen, but it could.
Speaker 1: And I'm not like, yeah, I'm a Lebron fan, but
Speaker 1: I'm not beholden to him. I'm not like, in the
Speaker 1: first and foremost, even though I am a Lebron fan,
Speaker 1: I'm a basketball fan and I take NBA history very seriously.
Speaker 1: That's why I've been so heads attempt to put Lebron
Speaker 1: above Michael Jordan's because I do think there's a certain
Speaker 1: amount of respect that is owed in that direction. And
Speaker 1: I feel the same way you know about this Lebron
Speaker 1: Steps situation. Steph has a lot to accomplish in order
Speaker 1: to pass Lebron, but it certainly is possible. But you
Speaker 1: have to keep in mind, like with Lebron, even if
Speaker 1: even if you just like a lot of people want
Speaker 1: to simplify it to Lebron has four rings and step
Speaker 1: has three rings, but it's actually a lot more complicated
Speaker 1: than that. Like Lebron on all four of those championship
Speaker 1: teams was definitively the very best player on his team,
Speaker 1: whereas with Steph there's one in two thousand fift team,
Speaker 1: where he was definitively the best player on his team.
Speaker 1: But then there's the other two where you know he
Speaker 1: was playing with somebody who arguably was better than him
Speaker 1: at the time. Now, I personally think that Steph at
Speaker 1: the time was every bit as good as Kadi, if
Speaker 1: not a little bit better. But there are people who
Speaker 1: think that kat was better, and those teams, you have
Speaker 1: to admit that specific accomplishment doesn't necessarily feel the same
Speaker 1: as a Lebron in two thousands sixteen beating the Warriors
Speaker 1: with with Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving. The point is is,
Speaker 1: obviously no two titles are weighed the same, and I'm
Speaker 1: not trying to undercut titles by any stretch of the imagination,
Speaker 1: but Lebron's four are clearly different than steps three, two
Speaker 1: of which he did he got alongside Kevin freaking Durant
Speaker 1: at the absolute peak of his powers. But even if
Speaker 1: we set that aside, even if we said, okay, Steph
Speaker 1: has four titles, Lebron has four titles, you have to
Speaker 1: look at the rest of Lebron's resume for him to
Speaker 1: have made First Team All m b A as many
Speaker 1: times as he has for him to win four m vps,
Speaker 1: and I think he absolutely should have one at five.
Speaker 1: A lot of the ones in NBA history that people
Speaker 1: look at as Lebron should have one m v P,
Speaker 1: I actually disagree. But in particular the year they just
Speaker 1: won the title, he should have won the MVP that year.
Speaker 1: That should not have been Nice's award. It was a
Speaker 1: huge benefit thrown to Janice through advanced metrics and a
Speaker 1: lot of things that had to do with the Bucks
Speaker 1: playing in a terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible Eastern Conference, and
Speaker 1: that was legitimized when he lost quickly in the bubble.
Speaker 1: The point being, you know, Lebron has this extensive resume,
Speaker 1: multiple m vps, multiple you know what does he have now?
Speaker 1: Ten finals appearances. There's so much more to Lebron's resume
Speaker 1: above and beyond what you get with the championships that
Speaker 1: it's just it's so much would have to be added
Speaker 1: to what Steph has done in order for him to
Speaker 1: pass Lebron. And you guys know, like I'm not. I
Speaker 1: got to do a conversation with a couple of guys
Speaker 1: yesterday about this on Twitter. But you know, you don't
Speaker 1: have to love one and hate the other. That's been
Speaker 1: the most confusing thing to me over the course of
Speaker 1: my time being on Twitter, seeing people think like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I like Steph, so therefore I must hate Lebron, or
Speaker 1: I like Lebron, so therefore I must hate Steph. Like
Speaker 1: to me, when I see stuff like that, I'm like,
Speaker 1: do you even like basketball? Because I love basketball and
Speaker 1: I love watching Steph play basketball. Do I get annoyed
Speaker 1: sometimes by some of the things his fans say? Sure,
Speaker 1: but I also get annoyed by the things Lebron James
Speaker 1: himself does and says, you know, because he could be
Speaker 1: so corny sometimes. The point is is, like, as a
Speaker 1: basketball fan, it's I struggle to understand how anybody could
Speaker 1: not like the two of them, and look at the
Speaker 1: two of them and understand how much better they are
Speaker 1: than everyone else that has played in this era. And
Speaker 1: again like step has the ability to pass Lebron, and
Speaker 1: I have a ton of respect for stef and I
Speaker 1: love the way he plays the game. But right now
Speaker 1: there's a pretty significant chasm there. He would have to
Speaker 1: make up a lot of ground over the course of
Speaker 1: the next few seasons. He has an opportunity to Golden
Speaker 1: State has a ton of talent, a lot of their talent.
Speaker 1: He's young. He absolutely has the opportunity to pass Lebron,
Speaker 1: but he has a long way to go. And that's
Speaker 1: not a slight against step And I've heard a lot
Speaker 1: of people with that tweet that I said out yesterday
Speaker 1: saying no, it's k D. It should be Braun and
Speaker 1: k D, or should be Katie and Steph fighting for
Speaker 1: that third spot. I vehemently disagree. Now, Kevin Durant has
Speaker 1: a very good basketball resume in its own right, but
Speaker 1: Steph has accomplished more at every level of the game
Speaker 1: than Kevin Durant has. He has the more m vps,
Speaker 1: he's He's won more championships. He definitively has won a
Speaker 1: title as the best player on his team. Kevin Durant
Speaker 1: has not. He may or may not have been better
Speaker 1: than Steph. And then on a day in, day out basis,
Speaker 1: over the course of the last decade, Steph has impacted
Speaker 1: winning more than Kevin Durant has, in my opinion, and
Speaker 1: that has manifested in the way that his teams have
Speaker 1: performed in the standings year in and year out. I
Speaker 1: don't care that they lost in the in the playing
Speaker 1: game last year. If you look at that team, they
Speaker 1: shouldn't even have been in the play in if Steph
Speaker 1: had not landed on his tailbone on a freaky play
Speaker 1: where he fell into the stands in the year before
Speaker 1: he broke his hand. So like, I don't really look
Speaker 1: too much into that. It's very similar to Lebron missing
Speaker 1: in twenty is just injury related, but over the worse
Speaker 1: of the last decade, steps record is unassailable against someone
Speaker 1: like KD. So to me, Lebron is definitively number one,
Speaker 1: but Steph is definitively number two, and Katie is probably
Speaker 1: definitively number three. But there isn't really there's a very
Speaker 1: clear and discernible boundary that separates those three guys from
Speaker 1: each other, in my opinion, And it's not a disrespect
Speaker 1: to any of them. It's just the reality of what
Speaker 1: they've accomplished on the court. Like you can argue whether
Speaker 1: or not Steph or Lebron has been better in any
Speaker 1: specific season because maybe you value one skill set over another.
Speaker 1: Maybe you think what Lebron does impacts winning more, maybe
Speaker 1: you think what Steph does impacts winning more. But the
Speaker 1: reality of the situation is in terms of what actually
Speaker 1: has happened on the scoreboard, in terms of actual team accomplishments,
Speaker 1: Lebron has Steph beat. He has step beat by significant margin,
Speaker 1: and Steph has KD beat by a significant margin. So
Speaker 1: in terms of their place in history in this lead,
Speaker 1: it's pretty clear where those three land. But I'm never
Speaker 1: gonna shut the door on Steph being able to pass Lebron.
Speaker 1: He certainly came. He just has a long way to go,
Speaker 1: and I think that it needs to be pointed out now.
Speaker 1: Moving on, how did how did Lebron and step change
Speaker 1: the game? This was the big topic that was brought
Speaker 1: up in that recent Bill Simmons podcast. So Steph obviously
Speaker 1: changed the game in a bunch of different ways people
Speaker 1: think about. You know, there's certain areas of the way
Speaker 1: step change the game that actually aren't remembered correctly. Like
Speaker 1: the league was trending heavily towards taking more threes with
Speaker 1: or without step that would have happened anyway. Where I
Speaker 1: think Steph changed the league has a lot to do
Speaker 1: with what the pick and roll ball handler does or
Speaker 1: what the isolation ball handler does. It used to be
Speaker 1: that an off the dribble three point shot was incredibly taboo.
Speaker 1: You would never it would you would be extremely rare
Speaker 1: for you'd even see one in m in an NBA game,
Speaker 1: and almost never at the lower levels, and it was
Speaker 1: consistently viewed as a low percentage bad shot that was
Speaker 1: bad for the offense, is bad for the flow in
Speaker 1: rhythm and confidence of your team. It was just all bad.
Speaker 1: And that was kind of the ironic thing of the
Speaker 1: two thousand fifteen and two thousand sixteen Warriors was Steph
Speaker 1: taking all these shots that people thought were bad shots
Speaker 1: that actually ended up being good shots because of how
Speaker 1: good he was at converting them, which inevitably led to
Speaker 1: a change in defense. And this is where step changed
Speaker 1: the game. It's funny if you guys, remember, if you
Speaker 1: ever watched an NBA game from the late two thousand's,
Speaker 1: almost every team in the league did some variation of
Speaker 1: a hedge and recover on pick and roll defense. So
Speaker 1: you like, just just imagine watching the old Calves games
Speaker 1: and you'd see, you know, Larry Hugh's garden the ball
Speaker 1: handler and the ball handler would come off a ball
Speaker 1: screen and you see zydrenas galwas kiss or Anderson bears.
Speaker 1: Youw like run almost out to half court on like
Speaker 1: a hedge to try to send the ball handler back,
Speaker 1: and then the guy guarding the ball handler would go
Speaker 1: under the screen, and he'd go under the screen and
Speaker 1: try to meet the ball handler on the other side.
Speaker 1: It's a hedge and recover defense. It was the most
Speaker 1: common pick and roll defense, you know, fifteen years ago
Speaker 1: that was rendered completely useless by Steph Curry because every
Speaker 1: single time, as soon as he beat the hedge, the
Speaker 1: hedger would recover to the roll man and he'd have
Speaker 1: a little bit of a gap of space between him
Speaker 1: and the guard going underneath the screen, and he would
Speaker 1: just make people pay every single time knocking down the three.
Speaker 1: And now if you watch, almost every team runs a
Speaker 1: drop coverage where they chase over the top. Why is that.
Speaker 1: It's because every guard has now tried to copy what
Speaker 1: Steph Curry did, which is shoot threes off the dribble,
Speaker 1: going over the top of a screen and pick and roll.
Speaker 1: And so now since every single guard in the league
Speaker 1: can do that, at least the majority of guards. You know,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of guards who are extremely good
Speaker 1: at that, but there are so many guards that are
Speaker 1: good at shooting coming off the top of the screen
Speaker 1: that now almost repick and roll defense involves the guy
Speaker 1: guarding the ball handler to chase over the top of
Speaker 1: the screen. That is an example of Steph completely changing
Speaker 1: the game and the irony there there is. You've seen
Speaker 1: so many guys try to copy Steph by attempting to
Speaker 1: take a ton of optagital threes. But what they missed
Speaker 1: and the reason why those guys aren't as good as
Speaker 1: step the reason why there's such a huge gap between
Speaker 1: a guy like Dame Lillard and Steph. You know, it
Speaker 1: has a lot to do with the other facets of
Speaker 1: the game that Steff has never gotten enough credit for
Speaker 1: him moving every single time he passes the ball. He's
Speaker 1: always in motion. He is never making himself easy to guard.
Speaker 1: If you want to guard Steph well for forty eight minutes,
Speaker 1: it requires a team effort of consistent attention, and every
Speaker 1: time you lose him, he will make you pay, or
Speaker 1: at least as a high percentage chance that he will
Speaker 1: make you pay. That sort of off ball action that
Speaker 1: Steph weaponizes is something that no one else has been
Speaker 1: able to replicate at the guard position, and that's the
Speaker 1: irony of people trying to be like Steph Is, they
Speaker 1: miss that huge part of his offensive game and how
Speaker 1: important that is to UH to staying a threat and
Speaker 1: making sure that you don't get diminished in your impact
Speaker 1: in a playoff series, because that's the important detail there.
Speaker 1: You know, Steph has shot below from three in his
Speaker 1: last two playoff runs, that doesn't mean he's played poorly.
Speaker 1: All shooting percentages, especially on jump shots, go down in
Speaker 1: the playoffs because guys are tired. It's a much more
Speaker 1: physical game. It's a much more slower paced game, and
Speaker 1: it's just harder to make jump shots when you don't
Speaker 1: have your base underneath you. That's why steps shooting percentages
Speaker 1: dropped in the playoffs has nothing to do with anything
Speaker 1: other than the natural order of things in the playoffs. Now,
Speaker 1: the flip side of that is that's where all the
Speaker 1: other things Steph does carries so much value. Everything step
Speaker 1: Doubs does in terms of his gravity, that absolutely translates
Speaker 1: to the playoffs. Step everything he does as a defensive player,
Speaker 1: making it so that you know, like step Is, it's
Speaker 1: just a bad idea to attack him in isolation now
Speaker 1: because he's expreien. He's very strong and he does a
Speaker 1: good job moving his feet, and he is good. He's
Speaker 1: got quick hands, and so you know, obviously he might
Speaker 1: be the best option for you to attack in a
Speaker 1: lineup with the Warriors that has like Andrew Wiggins and
Speaker 1: you know UH Andrea Guadala and Klay Thompson in it, right,
Speaker 1: But the truth of the matter is like even when
Speaker 1: you attack step it's not a great matchup. He holds
Speaker 1: his own and then off the ball, he does a
Speaker 1: very good job always being in the right spots, using
Speaker 1: his hands and doing all of the little things necessary
Speaker 1: to make him a plus defender instead of a minus defender.
Speaker 1: And that's always been the big difference between him and
Speaker 1: all of the other UH guards in the league that
Speaker 1: try to be him. They think it's all about three
Speaker 1: point shooting. It's not all about three point shooting. There
Speaker 1: is a total package to what Steph Curry brings to
Speaker 1: the table that is different than what these other guards
Speaker 1: are doing. And that's why those guys can't touch that impact.
Speaker 1: And that's why what Steph does works all the way
Speaker 1: through June, whereas you've seen Dame consistently flame out in
Speaker 1: earlier rounds. It's just a different total package of a
Speaker 1: basketball player. Now where I pushed back on what uh
Speaker 1: real quickly, one last thing with Steph, his off ball
Speaker 1: style does cultivate a ball movement that is very different
Speaker 1: than what you see in other offenses. It's very difficult
Speaker 1: to replicate. You know, We've seen a little bit of
Speaker 1: it from Spurs teams in the past, but the Warriors
Speaker 1: just keep the ball moving around really, really well, and
Speaker 1: a lot of that has to do with Steph being
Speaker 1: off the ball. But there's a flip side to that.
Speaker 1: The role players that play with Steph have to be
Speaker 1: a certain archetype, whereas the role players that play with
Speaker 1: Lebron have to be a different archetype. Right, Like we've
Speaker 1: seen We've literally seen Lebron load up on playmakers like
Speaker 1: you did in two thousand nineteen, if you guys remember,
Speaker 1: and it kind of didn't really work because you know,
Speaker 1: it actually makes more sense to have playmakers with a
Speaker 1: guy like Steph because with Steph he drags bodies away
Speaker 1: from the paint. So what you've really need are guys
Speaker 1: that can run a lightning quick four on three attack
Speaker 1: and get layups or wide open threes. If if that's
Speaker 1: what it provides with the point being with step you're
Speaker 1: looking for guys that can attack with an advantage on
Speaker 1: a shrunken court where the paint is open, So it
Speaker 1: actually helps better that it helps more to have guys
Speaker 1: like Andrea Guadala who are not great shooters but can
Speaker 1: put the ball on the floor and make really smart, intelligent,
Speaker 1: quick decisions with the basketball, and when they get to
Speaker 1: the rim, they can finish at the rent, whereas with Lebron,
Speaker 1: you actually do want shooters and cutters. You want guys
Speaker 1: that do stuff without the ball in their hands. You
Speaker 1: want guys that have a good understanding of when to
Speaker 1: cut off the ball to the to the basket, and
Speaker 1: you want shooters that do a good job of relocating
Speaker 1: and doing things off the ball to occupy defenders so
Speaker 1: that Lebron can attack or when they're guys help that
Speaker 1: can consistently make you pay. And then obviously for both guys,
Speaker 1: you want them to be able to defend. But that's
Speaker 1: the point, like they both played super unique styles that
Speaker 1: require specific types of role players, he swapped Lebron and
Speaker 1: Steph today, arguably both teams would underachieve to where they
Speaker 1: are now because of the way that those specific role
Speaker 1: player groups are catered to their specific skill sets. So
Speaker 1: moving on to Lebron, because this is this is where
Speaker 1: I disagreed with what Bill Simmon was saying, because built
Speaker 1: Lebron James absolutely has changed the game. When Lebron came
Speaker 1: into the league, when he was playing with Paul Silas,
Speaker 1: if you ever go back and watch, you could find it.
Speaker 1: All you have to do is look at old highlight
Speaker 1: films of Lebron when he was a rookie. Look up
Speaker 1: the one when he was playing against Tracy McGrady, that
Speaker 1: famous Christmas Day game. He was constantly off the ball.
Speaker 1: And not only was he off the ball, they had
Speaker 1: like to kind of they put like two big guys
Speaker 1: on the block, and they'd set kind of constant cross
Speaker 1: screens and they'd have Lebron run the baseline, and when
Speaker 1: he'd run the baseline, he'd catch on one of the
Speaker 1: wings and if he was open, he'd shoot a jump
Speaker 1: shot a lot of times midrange jump shots, or he
Speaker 1: catch an attack. But a lot of what Lebron was
Speaker 1: doing was what all small forwards and power forwards at
Speaker 1: the time, like if they were really talented offensive players,
Speaker 1: a point guard would bring the ball up the floor.
Speaker 1: They'd run an action to get you to a spot
Speaker 1: on the floor where you thought you could succeed, and
Speaker 1: they would hit you in that spot and let you
Speaker 1: go to work, kind of like what Carmelo Anthony did
Speaker 1: during his whole career. Carmelo Anthony is an example of
Speaker 1: a player who came at the same time as Lebron,
Speaker 1: but rather than changing the game the way Lebron did,
Speaker 1: Carmelo kind of became the ultimate version of what we
Speaker 1: were doing as a league at that time. Lebron popularized
Speaker 1: helio centrism, and this is a style of basketball, just
Speaker 1: like with Steph that people have attempted to recreate, but
Speaker 1: they fail. We've seen guys like James Harden, like Trey Young,
Speaker 1: like Luca don Chez attempt to do what Lebron does,
Speaker 1: but for whatever reason, it just doesn't have the same
Speaker 1: level of impact. And there's a very specific reason for
Speaker 1: that when you get into a playoff setting in particular,
Speaker 1: and by the way, when I say helio centrism a
Speaker 1: quick definition, I just mean get the ball in the
Speaker 1: hands of your best player, not your point guard, but
Speaker 1: your best player, and effectively have him play point guard.
Speaker 1: At the top of the key with the spread floor
Speaker 1: either an isolation or the high pick and roll, and
Speaker 1: let him consistently make decisions out of that. With the
Speaker 1: spread floor, it's just really hard to guard a guy
Speaker 1: thirty ft from the basket, So he's probably gonna beat
Speaker 1: his man off the dribble, and then from there he's
Speaker 1: gonna get you in rotation. He's either gonna get you
Speaker 1: helping at the rim or missing a cut or something
Speaker 1: along along those lines on the weak side, and he's
Speaker 1: gonna consistently make you pay. But the key difference between
Speaker 1: that style the way Lebron does it, in the way
Speaker 1: that You're Lucas and your Trays and your James Harden's
Speaker 1: do it is Labron applies consistent rim pressure and there so,
Speaker 1: essentially in a playoff series when teams are switching a
Speaker 1: lot and it becomes kind of an isolation contest, the
Speaker 1: guys that get to the rim, the guys that get
Speaker 1: high percentage shots at the rim, typically win those battles,
Speaker 1: whereas guys that depend on step back jump shots or
Speaker 1: Finnesse type of moves away from the basket, they succumb
Speaker 1: to the fatigue elements. That's where that's why James Harden
Speaker 1: is shot so poorly in the playoffs in his career.
Speaker 1: That's step back three. Any of you have ever done
Speaker 1: that shot before? Have you ever tried that shot? It's
Speaker 1: it's every bit as athletic a move as a dunk.
Speaker 1: To generate the separation you need stepping back and to
Speaker 1: get enough lift to knock the shot down. It's like
Speaker 1: a dunk. It's extremely tiring, and so when you get
Speaker 1: like when you're tired and you get to the basket.
Speaker 1: As long as you're getting to the basket, you can
Speaker 1: still make those layups at a high percentage, right, But
Speaker 1: if you're taking step back three's and you're tired, they're
Speaker 1: probably gonna start missing. And that's what you see happen
Speaker 1: with Luca, That's what you see happen with James Harden.
Speaker 1: So that's what you see happen with the tray Youngs
Speaker 1: of the world. They play a helio centric style, but
Speaker 1: they rely on more difficult shot making, and when the
Speaker 1: fatigue elements of the postseason come into play, they tend
Speaker 1: to fade. But we've seen lebron Celio's entric style last
Speaker 1: all the way through the end of June consistently because
Speaker 1: of his specific attack, his method of attack, and there
Speaker 1: are a bunch of other elements too, right, Like, Lebron
Speaker 1: is probably a better passer than all three of those guys,
Speaker 1: So that's another reason why that works. Just like with
Speaker 1: step he's an off the dribble jump shooter, but he's
Speaker 1: just way better off the dribble jump shooting than any
Speaker 1: of those guys. So you're not only are you trying
Speaker 1: to copy a specific skill that you're not as good at,
Speaker 1: but you miss all of the other elements. And then
Speaker 1: the big one of the other big difference is the
Speaker 1: last thing I wanted to mention about Lebron's heliocentric attack
Speaker 1: is the way that he attacks from different spots on
Speaker 1: the floor. When you watch James Harden, chances are it's
Speaker 1: gonna be a live dribble thirty ft from the basket,
Speaker 1: either on the left wing or the right wing, and
Speaker 1: he's either going to call a ball screen or it's
Speaker 1: gonna be isolation. But it's gonna be a series of
Speaker 1: dribbles between the legs, either setting to a left right crossover,
Speaker 1: right to left crossover, or into his step back three.
Speaker 1: You're consistently going to see that there will never be
Speaker 1: a point in the game where James Harden catches in
Speaker 1: the corner and tries to make something happen. There will
Speaker 1: never be a point in the game where James Harden
Speaker 1: posts you up. There will never be a point in
Speaker 1: the game where James Harden tries to get a face
Speaker 1: up touch at the midpost or the high post. There
Speaker 1: will never be a point in the game where James
Speaker 1: is going to run the floor and do a deep
Speaker 1: seal underneath the basket. You're getting all of that with Lebron.
Speaker 1: Lebron is going to mix in post ups. Lebron is
Speaker 1: going to mix up face up, mix in face ups.
Speaker 1: He's gonna mix in dives to the basket off the
Speaker 1: ball where he tries to get easy touches right under
Speaker 1: the rim for layoffs. He's going to, you know, find
Speaker 1: like probably a half dozen different types of attack that
Speaker 1: he brings at you in a playoff series, mixed in
Speaker 1: with your normal heliocentric, high pick and roll, high isolation
Speaker 1: type of players, and so becomes because of that, it
Speaker 1: becomes much harder to guard him over the course of
Speaker 1: a playoff series when you're Guarden James Harden. There's a
Speaker 1: reason why he struggles towards end of games. You give
Speaker 1: a guy like you know, you give a good defensive
Speaker 1: player who's guarding him possessions in a row to watch
Speaker 1: the same move at the top of the key, like
Speaker 1: chances are eventually he's gonna pick up on cues. Okay,
Speaker 1: I think he's gonna go left here. Okay, I think
Speaker 1: he's gonna go right here. Oh, it looks like he's
Speaker 1: setting up for a step back. You eventually become a
Speaker 1: tuned to what they're doing, and you figure out how
Speaker 1: to eventually start to bother them a little bit more
Speaker 1: on those shots, and that's when the misses start coming.
Speaker 1: You can't do that with Lebron because he mixes it
Speaker 1: up so much. If you started sitting on some of
Speaker 1: his isolation moves far from the basket, he will post
Speaker 1: you up. If you're too strong and he's not getting
Speaker 1: a physical advantage on you in the post, he'll move
Speaker 1: you further away from the basket and try to face
Speaker 1: you up. He has so many different angles to his
Speaker 1: offensive attack that he stays versatile enough that he doesn't
Speaker 1: get undercut by the normal things that undercut offensive basketball
Speaker 1: players in the postseason. So kind of insummation looking back
Speaker 1: at this, Yes, Lebron and Steph both have brought changes
Speaker 1: to the game, and Lebron with his heliocentrism, stepped with
Speaker 1: his author dribble, jump shooting, and with everything else that
Speaker 1: he does on the basketball court. But the truth of
Speaker 1: the matter is is nobody in the league does it
Speaker 1: as well as they do it, and that's why they're
Speaker 1: still in the top tier. That's why step at his
Speaker 1: age and Lebron at his age are still in the
Speaker 1: top tier superstars in the league, and why everyone who
Speaker 1: tries to be like them seems to fail. It's because
Speaker 1: everyone wants to minimize what they do down to one
Speaker 1: thing like Steps shooting right or Lebron high pick and
Speaker 1: roll or high isolation, when the reality is that they
Speaker 1: do so much more to impact the game, and everyone
Speaker 1: who tries to be like them inevitably comes up short.
Speaker 1: Now everyone brings a different touch right, like Janice is
Speaker 1: going to find a whole new angle to his game.
Speaker 1: Janice is basically, you know, Joannice is basically a shock
Speaker 1: that dribbles from the perimeter. So he's kind of unprecedented
Speaker 1: in his own way. And just watch, I bet you
Speaker 1: the raptors try to do this um um with Scotty Barnes.
Speaker 1: They're gonna try to turn him into honest. And the
Speaker 1: truth of the matter is Joannice is honest. No one
Speaker 1: else is going to be able to be what Janice
Speaker 1: can can be. You know, everyone talks about Ben Simmons.
Speaker 1: If I swapp Ben Simmons, Ben Simmons onto the Bucks,
Speaker 1: would he be able to do what Jannice does? Hell no,
Speaker 1: absolutely not. There's Janice is a one of one. Step
Speaker 1: is a one of one. Lebron is a one of one,
Speaker 1: and there's there there's nothing. There's no ability to to
Speaker 1: recreate what they do. Um. But I just I wanted to,
Speaker 1: you know, because the Steph Lebron topic can be so
Speaker 1: toxic because Step fans hate Lebron fans, or step fans
Speaker 1: hate Lebron for whatever reason, and Lebron fans hate step
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, which, like I said earlier, is lame
Speaker 1: because if you like the game of basketball, you should
Speaker 1: like them both. You can dislike a basketball player for
Speaker 1: regular reasons, right, Like I'm not a huge fan of
Speaker 1: James Harden and his style of play, but that's not
Speaker 1: associated to my like for another player. I don't dislike
Speaker 1: James Harden because I like Lebron James, you know, but
Speaker 1: there's a lot of Steph fans who dislike Lebron just
Speaker 1: because they like Steph. And there are a lot of
Speaker 1: Lebron fans who dislike Steph just because they like Lebron.
Speaker 1: And I've always thought that was silly. And when I
Speaker 1: look back at this era, I'm really thankful that I
Speaker 1: got to watch this era because this is two of
Speaker 1: the top ten basketball players, top ten basketball players of
Speaker 1: all time, who have gone to gone to war basically
Speaker 1: consistently over the course of this decade, and they've definitively
Speaker 1: been you know, any given season, if you pick they're
Speaker 1: the best player in the world. You know, like it
Speaker 1: it's been cool to be able to winness this and
Speaker 1: I hate that people want to undercut one of them
Speaker 1: to raise up the other, you know, Like it's like
Speaker 1: if you if you prefer Michael Jordan over Lebron, just
Speaker 1: say you thought Michael was better. It doesn't have to be.
Speaker 1: Lebron plays in a Pansy league, right Like, if you
Speaker 1: think Lebron is better than step it doesn't have to
Speaker 1: be steps And you know, a system player, you know,
Speaker 1: like David Mediman said all those years ago, like it
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be that, it can be. I think
Speaker 1: steps incredible, but I think Lebron is a little better,
Speaker 1: which is where I'm at. I think step is the
Speaker 1: ninth or tenth best basketball player ever, and probably when
Speaker 1: he's all said and done, will be closer to five
Speaker 1: or six. But he's definitively below Lebron. That's not a
Speaker 1: shot at Steph, just the reality of this situation. And
Speaker 1: I'll react to new information. If over the course of
Speaker 1: the next five years Steph rips off three more and
Speaker 1: he's definitively the best player on all three teams, and
Speaker 1: he wins two more m v p s, then guess what,
Speaker 1: we have to have a new conversation about Lebron and Steph.
Speaker 1: But where we stand right now, Lebron has an extensive
Speaker 1: resume that runs laps around what step is accomplished, and
Speaker 1: he's won four titles where he's definitively been the best
Speaker 1: player on all four teams. So right now there's a gap.
Speaker 1: There might not be there in five years, but right
Speaker 1: now there's a gap there. So saying something like Steph
Speaker 1: is the Michael Jordan of this era is outrageous. That's
Speaker 1: just it's just not realistic. Like I said earlier, like
Speaker 1: Lebron might not even be the Michael Jordan of this
Speaker 1: era because he hasn't been dominant enough. But I just
Speaker 1: in general, I wish all of the toxic discourse surrounding
Speaker 1: these two players would go away because they are the
Speaker 1: two best players of this era. Kevin Durant is definitively
Speaker 1: beneath both of them, so they need to be Both
Speaker 1: of them need to be pumped up and to be
Speaker 1: remembered and enjoyed while they're here. All right, guys, that's
Speaker 1: all I have for today. This is this recording. We'll
Speaker 1: air on Dash Radio tomorrow morning at seven am Pacific
Speaker 1: Standard time, and will be on my podcast feed here
Speaker 1: at about four pm Pacific standard time. So if you
Speaker 1: miss the beginning and you want to check that out,
Speaker 1: you can find out our podcast feed, and then Rog
Speaker 1: and I will be back for our normal postgame show
Speaker 1: tomorrow night. Thanks as always for the support. We'll see
Speaker 1: you guys in a day or so.