1 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: Y'all. LAPD's most famous cold case, hands down, is the 2 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: Black Dollion. The single victim, Elizabeth Short, was only twenty 3 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: two years old when she was tortured, assaulted, cut in half, 4 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: had her blood drained from her body, She had blows 5 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,839 Speaker 1: to her head, she had her tattoo cut off and 6 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 1: shoved inside her. Law enforcement looked at one hundred and 7 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: fifty people, sixty of them confessed. I mean, this case 8 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: was just nuts. They even looked at Bugsy Siegel as 9 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: a possible killer. I mean, it's just one of those 10 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: cases that has just gripped people. The Zodiac, y'all know 11 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: this case as well as I do. He killed at 12 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:07,559 Speaker 1: least five people from nineteen sixty eight to nineteen sixty nine. 13 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: Some were stabbed, some were shot. Mostly were couples that 14 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: a lover's lane type situation where they were making out 15 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: and he just came up on them, scared them, shot them. 16 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: And then we all know about the symbol, the moniker. 17 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: He called himself Zodiac, gave himself the nickname. He had 18 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: the symbol, and then of course we all know what 19 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:36,759 Speaker 1: he did with ciphers and cryptograms, so he was taughting 20 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 1: the police. Well some people now are saying they believe 21 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 1: these two killers might be the same person. So I 22 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: have invited doctor Pria Banerjee, who y'all know, famed pathologist, 23 00:01:53,760 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: and doctor Joni Johnston, famed forensic psychologists, and theyre going 24 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: to help us kind of look at this thing from 25 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: two really unique sides to say, does anything about these 26 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: two killers translate as being the same person. I'm gonna 27 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: go ahead and tell you a spoiler alert. I don't 28 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: think there's a shot it's the same person. But I 29 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 1: don't have doctor in front of my name, So let 30 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: me bring in our guest and let's start talking about 31 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: this case. Doctor and doctor, thank you, thank you for 32 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: being with us, and happy New Year to both of you. 33 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 2: Happy New Year, thank you for having me. 34 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 3: Same to you. 35 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,239 Speaker 1: Well, I mean y'all know this case in both cases 36 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: as well as anybody, but doctor Johnson, I want to 37 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: start with you. When you look at the black Dog 38 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:55,679 Speaker 1: your case, that case to me now seems personal, almost revengeful, 39 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: like I am coming at you because I am mad 40 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: at you, just to the point that I'm going to 41 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: tie you up, I'm going to cut you and have 42 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: I'm gonna just do horrible things to you, because that's 43 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: the level that I have reached with you. Do you 44 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 1: feel that at all? Do you see it that way? 45 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 3: I do? 46 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 4: I mean it really a screams initially at least, you know, 47 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 4: sexually motivated and homicide. 48 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 3: That's what it looks like, right. You've seen a million 49 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 3: of them. 50 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 4: And that's one of the trickiest things in terms of 51 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 4: I like to think of myself as being open minded, 52 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 4: you know, always to the evidence. But looking at these 53 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 4: two crimes from a psychological standpoint, it is so hard 54 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 4: to connect them. It's there's so many difference things. As 55 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 4: you pointed out, one is so personal, one seems to 56 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 4: be so sexually motivated, the other one seems to be 57 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,839 Speaker 4: completely different. So yeah, I think that is the hardest thing, 58 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 4: is kind of going from a psychological standpoint. You have 59 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 4: all this like logical distance with one, all this you know, 60 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 4: kind of sexual energy with another, you know, all the 61 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, it just is so challenging I think 62 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 4: to put these two together from a behavior or psychological standard. 63 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 1: Now, one point I tried to make on Nancy Grace's show, 64 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: but I couldn't really articulate it quick enough, Doctor Johnson. 65 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: It's this when you look at a homicide of a 66 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: serial killer, there's going to be signatures. Period. When you 67 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: look at them and then the signatures, it should become 68 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: clear to you that this is this type of killer, 69 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: a LUSS killer, right, something should stand out for you. 70 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: What I was trying to say was signatures can be misunderstood. 71 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 1: I think by people with the DC sniper when they 72 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: left the death card, that could be looked at as 73 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 1: a signature. Sure, absolutely, the way somebody does a body 74 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: post mortem could be a signature. What I was talking 75 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: about was the signature of the psychological intent, what that 76 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: killer was feeling, what he believed was the reason behind 77 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: the murders. So, doctor Johnson, in this case of the 78 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: Black Dahlia only, do you believe that it looked more 79 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 1: like a lust killer or what type of killer would 80 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 1: you call that? Just based on the way her body 81 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:39,919 Speaker 1: was treated. 82 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 4: Well, one thing that I thought was pretty interesting because 83 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 4: initially I thought, Okay, this has got to be a 84 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 4: sexually motivated killer. Look at all the postpartum my activities, 85 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 4: look at all the you know, all just all the 86 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 4: agreed cutting. Yeah, yeah, all that, And I would say 87 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:58,280 Speaker 4: that I think it's interesting and important to kind of 88 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 4: separate out what happened post mortem and. 89 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 3: Antimortem or my behavioral standpoint. 90 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 4: Because I'm not sure as I went back and looked 91 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 4: at it that this is kind of the classic sexually 92 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 4: motivated murder that we've heard about so much, because when 93 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 4: you look at why she how she died from blunt 94 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 4: for's trauma, it almost got the sense that this is 95 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 4: somebody who it could have been revenge. It was clearly 96 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 4: a personal murder, for sure. I think that kind of 97 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 4: stands out. But was it sexually motivated? I'm not quite 98 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:30,599 Speaker 4: as sure as I was before, because when you have 99 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 4: so much activity postmortem, it's almost like, is this an experimentation? 100 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 4: Is this kind of a humiliation? It doesn't have the 101 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 4: same feel to it that it would if we have 102 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 4: somebody who's you know, kidnapping somebody and torturing them and 103 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 4: we see evidence of all this anti mortem, you know, torture, 104 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 4: that that was kind of a turn on. I think 105 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 4: in this situation there might have been some kind of 106 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 4: love connection, some kind of revenge connection, but I don't 107 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 4: see the same the distinct motive that we might see 108 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 4: in other cases. 109 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: MS can change, like Ted Bundy changed the way he 110 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: killed his victims, his modus operenda. He strangled, he bludgeoned, 111 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: he dismembered, but his psychological signature did not change. It 112 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: won't change. Is that accurate? 113 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 3: It really is. 114 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 4: I mean that's kind of been one of the issues 115 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 4: I think that's come up. When you look at people 116 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 4: like that. You know D'Angelo does a d Angelo's you 117 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 4: kind of go, oh, we went, we went to you know, 118 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 4: he was doing this and then he escalated. He's raping 119 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 4: and now he's killing. It's like, but he's doing the 120 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 4: same thing right at different levels. That's not changing. What 121 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 4: psychological satisfies him, a need for control, that's not changing. Yeah, 122 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 4: he can't change it exactly. He can't change it. 123 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 3: And that's the difference between exactly them and the signature. 124 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 4: You know, this figature part can go all over the place, 125 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 4: but man, I'm sorry that you have them. O can 126 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 4: go all over the place, but the signature does not change. 127 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: That's right. So, doctor Pria, when you have a victim 128 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: like the black Dahlia that's been cut in half, I mean, 129 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: bisections are really rare, especially you know across the body, 130 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: she was tied up, all the blood was drained from her, 131 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: So clearly he had a place where he could take 132 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: his time and do all these tortuous things to her. 133 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: In that type of autopsy, what are you looking for 134 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: not just to help the police with trace evidence and 135 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:40,199 Speaker 1: things of that nature, but what are you looking forward 136 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:43,559 Speaker 1: to help doctor Johnson with the psychological part. 137 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 5: I think there's a lot going on with it, right, 138 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 5: we know the investigation plus the autopsy, so you know, 139 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 5: I would want to see scene pictures too. Right, She's 140 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 5: obviously dumped at this site. It's not a bloody scene. 141 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 5: There's no tools there, there's no fr that. It seems 142 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 5: like the killing and the dissection happened or the post 143 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 5: mortem dismemberment I should say, happened elsewhere, right, and then 144 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 5: this was a dump positioned her very specifically, She's naked 145 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 5: completely and then further mutilated. I mean this is to 146 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 5: me just that in itself, how she is positioned, how she's. 147 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 2: Dismembered. 148 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,319 Speaker 5: I think it's just uh that in and of itself 149 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:37,559 Speaker 5: should help doctor Johnson. I don't want to speak for her, 150 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 5: but you know where she was cut through, what was 151 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 5: cut off, Like the heart tattoo, that is a very 152 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 5: symbolic thing. And I think when I looked at it, 153 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:49,719 Speaker 5: I honestly didn't know that much about it, you know, 154 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 5: obviously way before my time. But uh, you know, looking 155 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:55,599 Speaker 5: at it, I'm like, oh wow, this is a very hateful, 156 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 5: almost like a domess or just a very scorned type 157 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 5: of killing to me. And this is I'm probably going 158 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 5: out of my expertise, but you know, so obviously in 159 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 5: that kind of case, what I think is important is 160 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 5: like a sexual assault kit looking for trace evidence, hairs, 161 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 5: fibers in the hands, you know, anything that could connect 162 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 5: her to another person, like a rape or the transport, 163 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 5: right like is there a vehicle, fiber, carpet, fiber, et cetera, 164 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:35,719 Speaker 5: anything that may have maybe of forensic value, because that's 165 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 5: going to add to the. 166 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 2: Story, you know. 167 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 5: And then I mean, I know we're hindsight's twenty twenty, 168 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,839 Speaker 5: but what now you know in this day and age, 169 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 5: obviously DNA plays so much into it, you know, And 170 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 5: I don't know what evidence there is and what would 171 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 5: be shelf stable from such you know, so long ago, 172 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 5: but I think all of that plays into it. And 173 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 5: you know, then we look at the actual injuries, you know, 174 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 5: how did she die? 175 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 2: And the biggest things that I see. 176 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 5: You know, this was an up close and personal type 177 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 5: of murder, was strangulation, right, And so that to me 178 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 5: again fits with that sexual violence or romance you know, 179 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 5: romantic interest gone wrong, whatever you want to call it 180 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 5: along those lines, like you have to. 181 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 2: It's very up. 182 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 5: Close and personal for someone to strangle you, where whereas 183 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,439 Speaker 5: the Zodiac killings were shootings, right, and that was pretty consistent. 184 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 2: And so that to me is just. 185 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 5: Very different modalities, you know, and that speaks differently to 186 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 5: the mindset usually when we're looking at strangulation, you know, 187 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 5: is there a sexual component to it? In terms of 188 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 5: a rape. I think she was tethered or roped off, 189 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 5: so there's an incapacitation there. And now I don't know 190 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 5: if that was post mortem or not, you know, in 191 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 5: terms of just wrapping the body for transport, or if 192 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 5: that was an actual tether to hold her down during 193 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 5: the strangulation. I've had both in my career, so you know, 194 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 5: to me, both are likely. So we really need to 195 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,839 Speaker 5: look at the full spectrum of injuries. 196 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 2: You know. 197 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 5: And when I say injuries, you know, some are anti mortem. 198 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 5: As I've lectured on before, that means there's bleeding she 199 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 5: you know, conte caused or contributed to her death. Strangulation 200 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 5: maybe being held down, maybe being tied or hit over 201 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 5: the head to incapacitate her. And then there's the actual 202 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 5: like positioning of her dismemberment. If there's no bleeding, that 203 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 5: that's usually done. 204 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 2: Too, you know, I would say to get rid of 205 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 2: the body. 206 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 5: But the cutting in half is unusual, Like I have 207 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 5: not had that in my career. I've had more like 208 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 5: the head and neck step, like the torso extremities and 209 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 5: the head and neck cut off. M I mean, that's 210 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 5: like going through so many organs the spine that has 211 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:00,319 Speaker 5: to take quite a bit of force and skin and 212 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 5: mess if you will you know what I mean in 213 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 5: terms of cutting through the organs too, even if it's 214 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 5: even if she's dead, it's going to be bloody, right, 215 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 5: and so all of that really, you know, plays into it. 216 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 5: How much hate there is for her body really strikes me. 217 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 5: And how violent even the dismemberment is. 218 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: Doctor Johnson, here's the thing I'm going to go back to. 219 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,839 Speaker 1: They just seem like different killers. When I look at Zodiac, 220 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:36,559 Speaker 1: I mean, he to me was more mission oriented. He 221 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: was patrolling. He came upon somebody. He focused in on 222 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: that target and he's like, Okay, it's going to be 223 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 1: that couple. He approached the car, he shot, he left. 224 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: He didn't torture anybody. He didn't sexually assault anybody. He 225 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: didn't pose anybody. He didn't display anybody. There wasn't a 226 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: secondary scene. He didn't transport. I mean, there was one 227 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:06,719 Speaker 1: vehicle where something was written, but again that's fifteen seconds. 228 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: He didn't spend a lot of time. They just don't 229 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 1: have any similarities to me, and for me, that's something 230 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to start with that. Like doctor Pria said, 231 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: the scene, start with the scene. I've got a primary 232 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: scene here, I've got a secondary scene in the other one. Well, 233 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: already that doesn't match. 234 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's really hard to connect the two. From a 235 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 4: psychological standpoint, I agree, And you're absolutely right. There's an 236 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 4: impersonal feel to the Zodiac Killer. There's, I agree, there's 237 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 4: a mission oriented kind of feel about it. There's kind 238 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 4: of a job mentality that you see. 239 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 3: He goes in. He doesn't belave, he. 240 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 4: Doesn't seem to get necessarily a pleasure from being around, 241 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 4: watching the victims or anything like that. 242 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 3: He's got a clear job to do. 243 00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 4: I mean, you're absolutely right, and then you look at 244 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 4: the you know that Elizabeth, you know, shortcase, and you 245 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 4: kind of go, it's the opposite of that. I mean, 246 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 4: I would agree with doctor Pria that there, you know, 247 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 4: if this was a homicidef this was you know, a 248 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 4: love thing gone wrong, that makes sense in a way. 249 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 3: I mean I think it does. 250 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 4: And I get to feel from the post wartum stuff 251 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 4: or from all the cutting is almost like this combination 252 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 4: of degrading her, humiliating her with this smile, right, the 253 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 4: Glasgow smile that he does as well as is almost 254 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 4: this experimentation. 255 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 3: You know, it's. 256 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 4: Interesting that you know that there's you know, at least 257 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 4: the suspect that has kind of come to the forefront 258 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 4: recently is there's was a medical student, right. I mean 259 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 4: that part of it could fit in terms of this 260 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 4: is an experiment cutting, the person drained, the blood and 261 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 4: all that kind of stuff. We don't know what this 262 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 4: person do, but just the actual act of it does 263 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 4: seem like a love gone wrong or or some kind 264 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 4: of personal attack, which is very very different when you 265 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 4: look at at the Zodiac killer. It does seem to 266 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 4: you know, target people almost randomly or pixies people, he goes, 267 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 4: he comes up, you shoot them, and he leaves. 268 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 3: It's like an execution. 269 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: Correct, great way to put that. 270 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 2: And I just wanted to say one more thing. 271 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 5: I don't know if doctor Johnson would agree or you 272 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 5: mac that drawing the smile on her face or carving it, 273 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 5: I should say, not drawing but carving it with a 274 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 5: sharp instrument. You know, she's a young, beautiful girl, right, 275 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 5: youthful and in some ways isn't that ironic like defacing 276 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 5: her by you know, mutilating her body and further mutilating 277 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 5: her face, you know, like haha, almost like a last laugh, 278 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 5: you know, And that to me seems very emotional and hateful. 279 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 5: You know, even we talk about often that women try 280 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 5: not you know, in suicide, let's say, which this is 281 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 5: not obviously, but they'll take nonviolent means because it's just 282 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 5: a in general, right, a tendency to. 283 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 2: Preserve the body, not harm the face. You know. 284 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 5: I've even had suicide victims do makeup before they you know, 285 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 5: kill themselves. 286 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 2: So there's often a time. 287 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 5: Where the strategy of taking one's life is because they 288 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 5: want to not mutilate the body. 289 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 2: Do you understand or not deface it. And this is so. 290 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 5: Ironic to me that not only is she cut in half, 291 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 5: but that almost wicked smile carved in is really hateful. 292 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 3: It just screams humiliation. 293 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 4: Correct, Yes, yeah, that's what I got, humiliation and punishment. 294 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 3: And you're right, there's almost not. 295 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 4: A game aspect to it, but there's a sense of 296 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 4: I'm like, yeah, I've got one on you, like I'm 297 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 4: just the worst thing, right man. 298 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, you can possibly imagine. I could. I could definitely 299 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 3: see that. 300 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 5: But and when I looked at the zodiac, you know, 301 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 5: they were shootings. That's more impersonal, and there was never 302 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:58,120 Speaker 5: that kind of physical mutilation right like anything, the heart 303 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 5: being carved out of her, the black dahlia and the 304 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 5: faith carving both seem very anger or hate driven towards her, 305 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 5: which I didn't gather from the zodiac cases. 306 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,679 Speaker 1: I agree. And here's the other thing. I mean, in 307 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 1: nineteen forty seven, how many women had tattoos? Not many? 308 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 1: So he focused on that to the point he removed 309 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: it and then placed it inside her vagina. Well, that 310 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 1: to me is next level. I mean, doctor, what do 311 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: you make of that? 312 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 3: I agree? 313 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's another way of dehumanizing her 314 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 4: in a way, and it's just another way of him 315 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 4: exerting control over her. And it's a heart tattoo, right 316 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 4: if I'm not mistaken, which I think is very symbolic. 317 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: Right. 318 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,360 Speaker 4: He removes the hard tattoo and puts in her vagina, 319 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 4: which is again, I mean. 320 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 3: That's what does that say? Right? 321 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:00,479 Speaker 4: You're taking somebody's heart, they had tote seat on them 322 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 4: for personal reasons, and you're putting in their vagina, like 323 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 4: you know, your heart is all about sex. That's what 324 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,239 Speaker 4: you're That's what what you really are is just a 325 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 4: piece of whatever, you know, a sexual object. I mean, 326 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 4: there's all kinds of things we can we could talk 327 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 4: about in terms of what that might mean. But I 328 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 4: think we would all say that this is another way 329 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 4: of degrading her and humiliating her and dehumanizing her. 330 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 5: I will say that, you know, in the multiple homicides, 331 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 5: you know, whatever I've had, I've never had anything. I 332 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:37,239 Speaker 5: mean I've had multiple decendons raped men and women, but 333 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 5: never anything inserted and left there. Does that make sense, 334 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 5: like anything like a token or any you know, whatever 335 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 5: happened was sort of anti mortem. And you know, we 336 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 5: do the sex kit but you know that is part 337 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 5: of the autopsy where we look at, you know, very 338 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 5: detailed at the anatomy. 339 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:00,880 Speaker 2: Sometimes I've had remove. 340 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 5: The anatomy and look at it, you know, under the 341 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 5: microscope for bruising, bleeding, anything of that nature. But the 342 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 5: tattoo in the vagina just seems weirdly and unfortunately symbolic 343 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 5: in a way to me, and it's left there. It's 344 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 5: very purposeful, very again hateful to me. 345 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: No, I agree, and doctor Johnson, you know, here's the 346 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 1: thing I have explained, very elementary the way I see 347 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 1: violence usually, and you take serial killers, oftentimes they start 348 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: with animals, right well, it's you know, with a rock 349 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 1: or a baby gun, and then they kind of graduate 350 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: to different things. If you take any romantic relationship you've 351 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,199 Speaker 1: ever had, and let's say it starts with handholding and 352 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 1: then you kind of make out a little bit and 353 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: then finally full own, you know, romantic interludes. Okay, Well, 354 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 1: if you look at a serial killer, I cannot fathom 355 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: somebody in nineteen forty seven cutting somebody in half, doing 356 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 1: all these horrific things, beating her in the head, tying 357 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 1: her up, draining the blood, cutting tattoos off, et cetera, 358 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: et cetera, and then twenty years later he's going to 359 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 1: be satisfied shooting somebody from a distance. That doesn't add 360 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: up to me. I'm not going back to holding Walt's 361 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 1: hand y'all. 362 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 3: I mean, am I what if you got rid of vaults? 363 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 3: Becuse you allbody else? 364 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: Maybe to start with, But I ain't staying there. That's 365 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: what I'm saying. Once you kind of have that taste 366 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 1: of blood, it seems like he would become even more violent, 367 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: not less. 368 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 2: Violent, almost like blood thirsty like he that would rev 369 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:00,959 Speaker 2: him up. 370 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 1: And well, that's what I'm asking. I mean, I'm more asking, 371 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: you know, doctor Joni, because that's the way I've always 372 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: kind of explained it when I've tried to rationalize in 373 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: my head what this person is graduating to. But I mean, 374 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 1: I could be wrong. Maybe they can retreat and be 375 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: less violent. It would just shock the daylights out of me. 376 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: Is all. 377 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 4: Well, it was interesting because having worked with offenders for 378 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 4: so many years, I mean, you know, I think the 379 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 4: possibilities are endless because we all know that people do 380 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 4: bizarre things and patterns or patterns and individuals or individuals. 381 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 4: So I agree with you but I have to say, 382 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 4: you know, taking a look at these these cases, I 383 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 4: really tried really hard to kind of play Devil's advocate 384 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 4: and look at all different sides of it and kind 385 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,719 Speaker 4: of go, okay, you know, look at the crime scene 386 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 4: and take the behavioral part of it out of it, 387 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 4: or or the psychological part of it out of it. 388 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 3: And you know, I really did try so hard to 389 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 3: kind of go, how could this be? 390 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 4: You know, I mean, is there any way that this 391 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 4: could fit, you know, from a psychological pandpoint, because hey, 392 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 4: you know, don't rule out anything, right, there's everything as 393 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 4: anything as possible, and there are only a couple of 394 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 4: things I came up with that I doubt, But I thought, okay, 395 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 4: one would be okay if this you know, this first murder, 396 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 4: the black Dog you murder was truly you know, a 397 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 4: revenge kind of thing, bwarded lover who's angry at this person. 398 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 4: He does this, This guy has got to have He's 399 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 4: going to have to have a history of violence and 400 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 4: criminal some kind of criminal behavior if he. 401 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 3: Then becomes the Zodiac killer. 402 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 4: Right, So we have to look at, okay, this suspect, 403 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 4: is this somebody who's a diverse criminal somebody who's done 404 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 4: other kind of violent things towards women. Is this somebody 405 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 4: who maybe at some point went from being actively involved 406 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 4: with women to being just so angry and resentful of 407 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 4: life and or you know, society in general that he 408 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 4: tried to he kind of he didn't go backwards, but 409 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 4: he shifted this kind of impersonal I don't care person. 410 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,199 Speaker 4: And then for him it wasn't necessarily going backwards but 411 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 4: a kind of a side stepping. I'm kind of burned out. 412 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 4: I mean, that doesn't really fit for me, but I 413 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:19,120 Speaker 4: really have tried to make this work, and I got of, okay, 414 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 4: well that's possible. The other thing that kind of came 415 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 4: up is, okay, is his could his signature be this 416 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 4: kind of game playing media thing, right? I mean, is 417 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 4: that part of his signature? Is that more important to him? 418 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 3: So if that we know. 419 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 4: That the the Black Dahlia killer, you know, taunted police, 420 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:38,679 Speaker 4: called them, you know, did all these kinds of things, 421 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 4: we have the Zodiac killer, right, who taunts police and. 422 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 3: Does all these kind of things. 423 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 4: There's a similarity there in terms of that need for 424 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 4: attention and those kinds of things. So I try really 425 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 4: hard to make that work and I can't say that 426 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 4: I can rule it out completely, but I will definitely 427 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 4: tell you that from a you know, kind of gut 428 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 4: level psychological does this fit are there? Is there a 429 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 4: way to put them in the same lanes From a 430 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 4: psychological gratification standpoint, it's almost impossible. 431 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was impossible for me. And I want to 432 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: be real clear because doctor Pria, one thing that I 433 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: love about you is you talk to everybody. So it 434 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 1: might be that rookie police officer that was the first 435 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: on the scene that can tell you something about how 436 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 1: it looked, what he heard, what he smelled, what he saw, 437 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,919 Speaker 1: or somebody that is one of your peers in the 438 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: medical field. 439 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 2: I love it all. 440 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: You love it all, and you like to include everybody 441 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: because everybody has a position to play. 442 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,439 Speaker 5: And a different viewpoint, right, We all come to different 443 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:48,160 Speaker 5: you know. Yeah, honestly, sometimes, let's say the rookie cop 444 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 5: may not be able to interpret what things mean, but 445 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 5: there's a shock value like, oh my god, I've never 446 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 5: seen this, and they remember everything to a t, you know, 447 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 5: where maybe the body was moved, maybe ems like, you know, 448 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 5: things get sort of lost in the in the rapid 449 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 5: handling of things and you know, so yes, everybody has 450 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 5: you know, you can't be a know at all and 451 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 5: not everybody's there at once and eyes and ears change. 452 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,160 Speaker 5: I definitely want my investigator or on a weird case 453 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 5: like this, I would. 454 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 2: Be out the scene. 455 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 5: That was my principle, you know, practice before because the body. 456 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 5: I don't want this body moved. She's obviously dead at 457 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 5: the scene, so there should not be an ems. I'm 458 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 5: talking about the black Dahlia and really I want her 459 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 5: in the context of the scene, right, walk the scene, 460 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 5: see what's there, because almost do because it was outside, 461 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 5: like almost do a perimeter because you never know what 462 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 5: evidence might be there in the grass or in the 463 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 5: you know, and then debris whatever, and then go from 464 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 5: there and then see if I can connect anything based 465 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 5: on what people tell me. I think it's a disservice 466 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 5: to a case if you don't take all available information 467 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 5: into account. Now do I wait, everything the same? No, right, 468 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 5: But you have to at least consider people's take on things. 469 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: There's some people that have spent years and thousands of 470 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: man hours looking at these cases and trying to connect them. 471 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 1: And doctor Joni, you and I worked on the BTK 472 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: Task force together and we had people that believed BTK 473 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 1: was the Zodiac. They one believed it. So this is 474 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: in the first time somebody's tried to connect to people 475 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: and what they were going on. There was that Dennis Raider. 476 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: BTK also taunted police, sent letters, gave himself the nickname. 477 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: But I mean that's not that unusual. Son of Sam 478 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: did it, Jack the River did it, DC Sniper did it. 479 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not unheard of. It's kind of a 480 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: cat and mouse game. And doctor Jonah, you could probably 481 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 1: tell us what that need is. Whether it's ego or 482 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,120 Speaker 1: they just won't to show people they're smarter than the police. 483 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: Maybe it's control. What do you think that is? 484 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 4: I think it's all the above. I mean I think 485 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 4: it definitely it becomes a game. There's a certain arrogance there, 486 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 4: narcissism there, and there's this, Yeah, there's this need to 487 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 4: kind of show the police and of course by the police, 488 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 4: the public like humiliating the police that they're the smartest, 489 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 4: that they've won, they've won whatever game that they're playing, 490 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 4: and as long as they're having police scramble around and 491 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 4: check out this lead or wait for them to turn 492 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 4: themselves in, like apparently at one point that happened. 493 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 3: I think it was in the Black Dallia place right. 494 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 4: Part of the media thing was I'll meet you and 495 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 4: turn myself in and then the police go out there 496 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 4: and they wait, and then they get another communication that says, no, 497 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 4: I change my mind. I'm not going to get a 498 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 4: fair deal. So you know, it's this game playing, right, 499 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 4: It's a gamesmanship and let me show everybody that I'm 500 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 4: smarter than the police. So, I mean, I think that 501 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 4: you're right, that isn't uncommon, but I think it is important. 502 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 4: Like you were saying, both of you were saying, it's 503 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 4: important to talk to everybody and to entertain those possibilities 504 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 4: because we've all seen cases where people got toune vision 505 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 4: and focus on a narrative early on, and thats as 506 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 4: far as it went because everybody kind of got on 507 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 4: board with the this is the story, and we're kind 508 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 4: of sticky with so I think of to our credit 509 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 4: that we look at stuff, but you're absolutely right, we don't. 510 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 4: It doesn't mean you look at everything the same way 511 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 4: or give it the same weight. 512 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: Well, I'll make this point because I want to be 513 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: real clear about something. The people that have devoted their 514 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: time and their talents. I support them. I support what 515 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,959 Speaker 1: they're doing, the effort that they're making. Whether I agree 516 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: with their conclusion or not, who cares what I think. 517 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: I mean, try, and I preach civilians solve cases all 518 00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: the time, and everybody should try. Everybody shoul should take 519 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: a swipe at the cipher, try to crack that puzzle. 520 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: You know who knows who could do it. But one 521 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: thing that I appreciate about both of you is, no 522 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: matter when I have ever called y'all and said, hey, 523 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: am I on the right track or am I crazy? 524 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: Am I looking at this wrong? What am I missing? 525 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: Both doctor Joni Johnston and doctor Prea Banergy y'all will 526 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: take that call. You will walk through a case with me. 527 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: And that's what I want people to really understand about tonight. 528 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: You know, I don't know, but I know doctor Joni knows, 529 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 1: and I know doctor pre And knows. So when you 530 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: can get to somebody that's smarter than you, has got 531 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: a different skill set, has got a different area of expertise, 532 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: now you're going to get somewhere. So when I look 533 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: at these two cases and I tell y'all, there ain't 534 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: a shot that they're related, I want to talk to somebody. 535 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 5: Else likewise, right, That's why I said I listen to 536 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 5: everybody because we're bouncing ideas off of each other. 537 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 2: What about this? 538 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 5: And you know it's not always during the workday that 539 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 5: you have thoughts, right Like, I'm in the shower or exercising, like, hey, 540 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 5: what about that case? And I'll text your mac right like, 541 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 5: and so you never know, we're have an idea. 542 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 2: You told me my brain never. 543 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 5: Shuts off, true, right Like, yeah, I always think about 544 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 5: different things. 545 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 2: Hey what about this? What about that? And so whether 546 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 2: it's a case or something to teach or do. 547 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 5: I mean, that's that's how we work. And I mean 548 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 5: we're all like one sliver of the puzzle. 549 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: Right again, for me, both of these cases start at 550 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: the crime scene, and if you work backwards, I just 551 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: don't think you're gonna see a connection that's gonna say 552 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 1: this is the same killer. I just don't I don't 553 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: understand how you go from being a sexually motivated killer 554 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: to a mission killer. I don't understand lapse of two decades. 555 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 1: I don't understand the difference in the psychological intent. I 556 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: just it's not something I've ever seen studied or have 557 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: found to be true. So I appreciate both of you 558 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: talking to us, and I also appreciate both of you 559 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: with your level of experience and education telling everybody try. 560 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: I mean, there is no us versus them. We're all 561 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: on the same team. If anybody can solve the case, 562 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: you should. And so all the work that's been done, 563 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: I'm going to say it again, I support their effort. 564 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 1: I support what they're doing. We don't have to agree 565 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: for me to have their back and what they're trying 566 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: to do. 567 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 3: Amen to that. 568 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 2: Absolutely well. 569 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: I appreciate both of you joining me once again. Y'all 570 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: are a solid part of my Zone seven professionally and personally, 571 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 1: and I just adore you. And we've got some good 572 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: things coming in twenty. 573 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 5: Twenty, many things coming soon, right, It's gonna be great. 574 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 2: Coming soon in twenty twenty six. 575 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: Amen, Thank you, thank you. I'm gonna end Zone seven 576 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: the way that I always do with a quote, I 577 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 1: didn't want to hurt them, I only wanted to kill them. 578 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: Son is Sam. I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is O seven.