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Speaker 1: Get in touch with technology with tex stuff dot com.

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Speaker 1: Hey there, and welcome to tex Stuff. I'm Jonathan Strickland,

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Speaker 1: and today I have a special guest host, a friend

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Speaker 1: of mine from way back. He is currently the senior

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Speaker 1: editor over at Bloomberg, not not the a senior editor.

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Speaker 1: His title actually, or his role is very specific. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to introduce him and let him say what his

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Speaker 1: role is, because otherwise I will muck it up. Nate Lankson,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to tex Stuff. Thank you very much. Yes, the

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Speaker 1: joyous difference between job title and job role senior editor Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: But I'm actually running to just ledatorial for Europe, Middle East,

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Speaker 1: in Africa. It's a long devotion, Yeah, Nate, Nate's he's

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Speaker 1: got a lot of responsibility on his shoulders doing a

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Speaker 1: bang up job too. And uh and Nate and I

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Speaker 1: know each other from several years. Actually we we both

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Speaker 1: started as as fans of c net and buzz out

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Speaker 1: Loud and then um Nate went on to work for

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Speaker 1: Senet and then b Wired and now works at Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: And through it all he has he has patiently endured

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Speaker 1: my friendship, so I appreciate that and and your many podcasts,

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Speaker 1: you know, a podcast a podcast listener as well as contributor.

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Speaker 1: And it's amazing that this is the first time I've

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Speaker 1: ever had you as a guest on this show. Because

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Speaker 1: we've known each other for so long and uh and

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Speaker 1: and our interests are so aligned. We've talked a lot

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Speaker 1: about collaborating. A part of the issue is that Nate

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Speaker 1: has this irritating habit of being English, so he there's

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Speaker 1: a there's a five or sometimes six hour time difference

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Speaker 1: between us. Yes, bloody marvelous, isn't it be wonderful? If

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Speaker 1: bright Well, my fans will love it because now there's

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Speaker 1: someone who has a true English accent as opposed to

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Speaker 1: the the one I sometimes attempt and and and mangle

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Speaker 1: along the way. And Nate is joining me to talk

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Speaker 1: about Internet Explorer, and the reason why we're talking about

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Speaker 1: it is that it's a web browser has a very

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Speaker 1: long history, and that history now seems to have an

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Speaker 1: end cap to it because Microsoft appears to be leaving

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Speaker 1: Internet Explorer behind and embracing a new product that currently

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Speaker 1: is codenamed Projects Spartan, but we'll probably have some different

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Speaker 1: name once it actually goes live. So we're going to

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Speaker 1: cover the dramatic history that's filled with uh tons of

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Speaker 1: interesting stories, as it turns out. And to really get started,

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Speaker 1: we have to turn the clock back before there was

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Speaker 1: ever any web browsers at all, at the birth of

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Speaker 1: the first web browser, which we can trace back to

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Speaker 1: Christmas Day, December nineteen wo M C M X see

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Speaker 1: as the Romans right, I'm glad you took that. Whenever

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Speaker 1: I start thinking about Roman numerals, I have to start

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Speaker 1: dialing I X I I uh, which only makes sense

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Speaker 1: for the listeners here in America. Um So, Tim berners

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Speaker 1: Lee was working at at CERN, same people who are

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Speaker 1: responsible for the Large Hadron Collider, and had developed a

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Speaker 1: program that would allow for the retrieval and display of

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Speaker 1: information UH in a way that would make sense, make

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Speaker 1: it easy to navigate. This would become the first web browser,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of funny because without the web browser,

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Speaker 1: you really don't have a worldwide Web. You definitely had

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Speaker 1: an Internet because the Internet is a network of networks

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Speaker 1: and a lot of people I realize maybe this isn't

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Speaker 1: as bad as it used to be, but a lot

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Speaker 1: of people often will say web and mean Internet or

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Speaker 1: vice versa. They'll use the terms changeably I've described it

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Speaker 1: in the past. Touch of the two people who get

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Speaker 1: this wrong as the Web is the car on the

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Speaker 1: highway that is the internet, right. They they are the

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Speaker 1: websites on top of the net, right, And there are

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Speaker 1: other vehicles on that same highway. Right. Because the email

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Speaker 1: does not have to be web based uh FTP, you know,

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Speaker 1: file transfer protocol, other protocols. Um. In fact, the way

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Speaker 1: I originally really made use of the Internet back in

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Speaker 1: the day was through the tel net chat client. I

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Speaker 1: used that a lot when I was in college as

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Speaker 1: a way of distracting myself and making friends with people

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Speaker 1: who were more into the same things I was into.

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Speaker 1: I went to for the first two years of my

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Speaker 1: schooling a small community college in rural Georgia, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of the people I was around didn't share the

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Speaker 1: same interests I did, so telling it was one of

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Speaker 1: those things that allowed me to go beyond that. But

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Speaker 1: that was before I had ever heard of the World

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Speaker 1: Wide Web and web browsers UM. So we have to

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Speaker 1: remember that this time before there were browsers there, there

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Speaker 1: were there were not really any user friendly ways of

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Speaker 1: accessing information. You kind of had to really dive into

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Speaker 1: the tech and understand commands in order to get anything

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Speaker 1: out of it. Even if those commands were fairly simple,

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Speaker 1: it was an high enough barrier of entry that there

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Speaker 1: were only a few of us playing in that in

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Speaker 1: that world at that time, right, I mean, there were

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Speaker 1: like people in colleges and research facilities and governments that

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Speaker 1: had access to it for various official purposes. There were

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Speaker 1: very few like fun applications outside of some wacky people saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: this computer that's crunching numbers for your your astronomy class,

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Speaker 1: we can also make it play tic tech toe. I

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Speaker 1: mean around about this time, there were also other similar

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Speaker 1: sort of projects they think that we're going on at set,

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Speaker 1: like people built sort of not competing necessarily, but there

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Speaker 1: were other programs that were created to sort of browse

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Speaker 1: in a in a more visual way, right, And and

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Speaker 1: it turns out that this was a brilliant idea. And

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Speaker 1: another little thing to to fall back on is just

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Speaker 1: a quick explanation of what's going on with a web browser.

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Speaker 1: For those of you who are you know, more casual

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Speaker 1: fans of technology, this might be helpful for those of

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Speaker 1: you who you know, are really deep in the field.

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Speaker 1: This is going to sound incredibly simplistic, but we have

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Speaker 1: to talk about what a client is and what a

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Speaker 1: server is. So your client is essentially your machine, the

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Speaker 1: device you're using to end up retrieving information from some

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Speaker 1: other computer a server which actually holds the information that

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Speaker 1: you are interested in. So if you are using a

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Speaker 1: web browser to visit a web page, there is somewhere

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Speaker 1: in the world a computer that has all that information

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Speaker 1: on it and it gets the rest from your browser

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Speaker 1: the client and says, all right, well, here's what you

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Speaker 1: ask for, and send it across the internet. Your browser

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Speaker 1: is in charge of displaying that information in some way

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Speaker 1: that hopefully is useful and informative. And that's the basic

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Speaker 1: relationship that the web browser is built around. It's not

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Speaker 1: the only client server relationship, but it's a great example

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Speaker 1: of one, I mean, and it's it's interesting because, as

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Speaker 1: I'm sure we will be coming too later, the relationship

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Speaker 1: between the idea of a client server model really has

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Speaker 1: not changed. And in fact, when you get into the

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Speaker 1: likes of the Chrome OS, the browser is just a

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Speaker 1: dumb client. It's a client terminal model for the entire

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Speaker 1: OS and essentially, but we're moving forward twenty five years

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Speaker 1: before we get at that point. The nice thing is

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Speaker 1: that this model works so well that it ended up

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Speaker 1: being the foundation for a lot of different applications, including

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Speaker 1: the Chrome operating system and uh and of course we're

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Speaker 1: seeing more and more serve uses and applications migrating to

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Speaker 1: the Internet side of things where we see this this uh,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's kind of a seesaw act. Right on

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Speaker 1: one side, we see hardware manufacturers that are still saying, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: you really want the strongest, fastest machine possible. And meanwhile

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Speaker 1: all the service providers are saying, we're handling all the

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Speaker 1: heavy lifting. You just need a device that can connect

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Speaker 1: to us. That way we get to control all the stuff. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So it's it's but it's because of this relationship that

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Speaker 1: that kind of infrastructure is even possible. I mean that,

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's the interesting thing. Also, just as a

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Speaker 1: slight related tangent, I suppose about More's law, which is

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Speaker 1: celebrating an anniversary at the moment, is that it's always

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Speaker 1: been assumed that we need the most biggest and fastest

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Speaker 1: power in our computers because we want to do more

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Speaker 1: and more things locally. Which, in a way, if that

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Speaker 1: was always going to be true, you would need less

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Speaker 1: and less on the on the service side outside of

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Speaker 1: the well the realms of um the web. But of

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Speaker 1: course now it's becoming much more about efficiency and and

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Speaker 1: low cost and and um thinness in our devices, and

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Speaker 1: so we don't need that sort of huge lifting power

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Speaker 1: within the machines we're currently using ourselves, which makes a

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Speaker 1: browser the perfect interface for a modern machine because it

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Speaker 1: just needs to be the go between, the conduit between

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Speaker 1: the very powerful server and the very small, powerful, less

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Speaker 1: powerful desktop machine or laptop or tablet or notebook or

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Speaker 1: what have you. And it means More's law has may

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Speaker 1: actually become irrelevant before it actually becomes wrong. You know,

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Speaker 1: we may not need that power, that sort of doubling

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Speaker 1: of power every eighteen months, because we have actually no

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Speaker 1: need for that power anymore. And in fact, More's law

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Speaker 1: originally was all about the financial side of you know,

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Speaker 1: the fact that there were these financial drivers that were

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Speaker 1: incentives to create these increasingly more power a full and

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Speaker 1: smaller components on a square inch of silicon. Now we're

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Speaker 1: getting to a point where if if we don't need that,

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Speaker 1: then there's less incentive. So there may be a point

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Speaker 1: of pride among some you know, engineers and computer scientists

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Speaker 1: who want to keep pushing that envelope and try and

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Speaker 1: make it um, you know, try and beat their record

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Speaker 1: in a way. But if the the demand isn't there,

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Speaker 1: then like you said, Moore's law could become obsolete before

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Speaker 1: we hit that fundamental limit from the laws of physics

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Speaker 1: that had gone through the same exponential growth that More's

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Speaker 1: law predicted for um silicon um, you would be able

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Speaker 1: to do a hundred miles on one tenth of a

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Speaker 1: millilita of fuel and that would cost you twenty five

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Speaker 1: cents in a car that costs twenty five cents. And uh,

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Speaker 1: in order to get back to the world that where

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Speaker 1: this is, this is being you know, this is a

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Speaker 1: relevant thing. UH, going back to the early nineties. This

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Speaker 1: is these are the days where early nineties I was

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Speaker 1: in high school about to go into college. UM and

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Speaker 1: early to mid nineties that's my high school college years. Uh.

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Speaker 1: In the those early nineties, you started seeing lots of

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Speaker 1: different programmers build their own web browsers. A lot of

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Speaker 1: them were within cerns, some of them were in colleges

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Speaker 1: and universities, and we started to see more people get

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Speaker 1: access to it because it was very clear that this

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Speaker 1: was going to be a useful tool to navigate information.

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Speaker 1: We move on to February and that's when Mark and

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Speaker 1: Reason and Eric Bana of the National Center for Supercomputing

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Speaker 1: Applications at the University of Illinois at Urbana champaign A

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Speaker 1: eight and C. S A, our mutual friend Tom Merritt

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Speaker 1: I believe, went to the University of Illinois UH in

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Speaker 1: C s A. They decided to introduce a browser themselves

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Speaker 1: that was the Mosaic Browser. It was on Unix, it

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Speaker 1: was also for the the X Windows platform UM and UH.

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Speaker 1: There their colleague Alex Todec created a version that could

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Speaker 1: run on Macintosh computer. So this was a browser that

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Speaker 1: could run on cross platforms. Although uh the appearance of

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Speaker 1: web information vary depending upon what platform you were using,

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Speaker 1: So it wasn't a m a smooth experience across all platforms.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't something that was It wasn't like you were

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Speaker 1: going to get the exact same experience on one machine

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Speaker 1: as on another, but you could get to the information.

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Speaker 1: UH and I had a lot of features that said,

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Speaker 1: apart from the earlier web browsers, like things that we

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Speaker 1: take for granted now, like bookmarks, you know that would

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Speaker 1: being able to to mark a specific web page is

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Speaker 1: something of interest so that you can easily navigate to

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Speaker 1: it in the future. It was really important also things

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Speaker 1: like icons and pictures as opposed to just text, which

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Speaker 1: made it more attractive to look at um and it

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Speaker 1: was free to use. And it's important to mention this

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Speaker 1: beforehand because it turns out a lot of the the

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Speaker 1: stuff they worked on would later find its way into

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Speaker 1: other future web browsers. By market, Drissa would partner with

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Speaker 1: Jeff clark and who was the founder of Silicon Graphics.

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Speaker 1: They created Mosaic Communications. It was later renamed to Netscape Communications,

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Speaker 1: and they started to develop a web browser for the

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Speaker 1: consumer market. So that's gonna sound really familiar to anyone

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Speaker 1: who was, you know, using computers around the time of

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Speaker 1: the first browser Wars. Netscape should definitely ring a bell.

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Speaker 1: This is around the time that that Windows is basically

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Speaker 1: about to go gold and and go on sales, so

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Speaker 1: we're still in Windows three point one era at the moment.

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Speaker 1: I think, and uh, and I mean the Netscape navigator,

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Speaker 1: I think was the very I might have used Mosaic

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Speaker 1: when I was in college, come to think of it,

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Speaker 1: But I'm pretty sure. I quickly transition to Netscape Navigator

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Speaker 1: and that became my browser of choice in those days. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know I didn't ask you, Nate, what browser do

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Speaker 1: you typically use when I use Safari for almost everything,

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Speaker 1: So you are you are clearly a Mac owner. I

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Speaker 1: am a Mac owner. I I love Safari because I

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Speaker 1: use almost no add ons at all, because I just

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Speaker 1: want speed and fast and I need it to sink

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Speaker 1: everything and so far as always work really well for me,

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Speaker 1: that makes sense. I detest Safari with a passion that

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Speaker 1: burns brighter than a thousand explaining funds. But it's mostly

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Speaker 1: because I don't use a Mac. If I did use

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Speaker 1: a Mac, then, like, if you're in the Apple infrastructure,

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Speaker 1: it's amazing. If you're all in, it's phenomenal. If you're

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Speaker 1: only kind of sort of in, it gets really irritating

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Speaker 1: really quickly. But then I'm all in on the Google infrastructure,

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Speaker 1: so I use Chrome. Yes, that's the difference, you see,

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Speaker 1: because the browser is the thing you use the most,

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Speaker 1: I would imagine, and so if your phone is the

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Speaker 1: thing that you carry and use the most in the day,

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Speaker 1: then it stands to reason that you're going to want

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Speaker 1: to use a browser that it's best on a phone, right,

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Speaker 1: and that's kind of peeking ahead to some of the

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Speaker 1: issues with Internet Explorer. Uh So, so we get the

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Speaker 1: n c s A licensing the commercial rights to Mosaic

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Speaker 1: to a company that was called at the time spy Glass.

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Speaker 1: The company no longer exists, so that should tell you

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Speaker 1: how things turn out in the future. Spy Glass ended

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Speaker 1: up licensing that same technology to other companies, including Microsoft,

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Speaker 1: So the Mosaic code ends up making its way to Microsoft.

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Speaker 1: Um and that was really important to Microsoft because, as

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Speaker 1: Nate was saying, they were preparing Windows for launch and

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Speaker 1: they really wanted to have a component in there that

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Speaker 1: would be a web browser, and they had decided that

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Speaker 1: it made more sense to license that technology from someone

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Speaker 1: else rather than trying to develop it in house. So

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Speaker 1: that's what led them to spy Glass and licensing the

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Speaker 1: Mosaic code. Uh October, Netscape would release a beta version

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Speaker 1: of their project, which was codenamed Mozilla that will become

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Speaker 1: important later to It was designated zero point nine six

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Speaker 1: b H. I decided early on that when I we

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Speaker 1: started looking at the actual builds of Internet Explorer, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna look at whole numbers only, because otherwise the path

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Speaker 1: leads to madness. You mean you're not going to consider

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Speaker 1: Chrome version twenty six point nine point six two point

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Speaker 1: three six four a seminal release. I mean it was beautiful, really,

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Speaker 1: I mean that the fact that it it improves so

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Speaker 1: much upon the President accessor that came out earlier that

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Speaker 1: same day is phenomenal. But no, I'm going to skip it. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So we move on to to August. That is the

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Speaker 1: day Microsoft released the Windows operating system. Uh man, I

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Speaker 1: still remember the commercials for Windows they had. They had

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Speaker 1: this little band, the Rolling Stones, that had a song

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Speaker 1: called start Me Up that played during the Windows ninety

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Speaker 1: five commercials. Because that was also the introduction of the

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Speaker 1: start button on Windows, the little button that wouldn't quit

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Speaker 1: or people wouldn't let the little button quit. And they

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Speaker 1: introduced a web browser which they named Internet Explorer. Made

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Speaker 1: a lot of sense, it was it was, in fact,

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Speaker 1: a way to navigate through the Internet, specifically the World

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Speaker 1: Wide Web. But this is this is the point I

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Speaker 1: just interjected, because this is the thing that I've always

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Speaker 1: hated about Internet Explorer is that it's a web browser, right.

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Speaker 1: Why is it not called Web Explorer. I think, uh,

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Speaker 1: I think they were afraid they might have, you know,

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Speaker 1: some sort of confusion with spiders or something. I don't know, Nate,

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Speaker 1: It's it confuses me to but yeah, Internet Explorer one

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Speaker 1: point oh came out with Windows. They had an agreement

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Speaker 1: with spy Glass, which was incredibly clever. Some might call

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Speaker 1: it sneaky and underhanded. Their agreement with spy Glass, So

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Speaker 1: Spyglass makes the the code the tech analogy that Internet

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Speaker 1: Explorer runs on Internet Explorer. The agreement with Spyglass was

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Speaker 1: that Microsoft would pay a quarterly fee to spy Glass.

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Speaker 1: All right, that's cool, and they also agreed to share

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Speaker 1: royalties for Internet Explorer. But Microsoft also decided to bundle

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Speaker 1: Internet Explorer with Windows, so Internet Explore itself wasn't on sale,

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Speaker 1: and so if you're not selling it, you can't make royalties,

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Speaker 1: which means they didn't have to share any money from

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Speaker 1: the Windows sales to Spyglass. Yeah. Pretty sneaky. Um that

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Speaker 1: would end up biting them a little bit later, but

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Speaker 1: at then, you're right, at the time they were just like, hey,

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Speaker 1: we really scored on this. Now when they started, only

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Speaker 1: six Microsoft employees. According to every source I saw only

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Speaker 1: six people in Microsoft were actually working on Internet Explorer,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of hard to believe today. Um and

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Speaker 1: at the time, the web was not what you and

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Speaker 1: I are used to. It had about twenty basic tags

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Speaker 1: and HTML that allowed you to construct pages and change

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Speaker 1: the style things like tables and and the font size

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Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. So it's really really basic. And

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Speaker 1: if you ever look at screenshots of old browsers and

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Speaker 1: old web pages, I mean, it mostly looks like the

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Speaker 1: blandest Wikipedia page you have ever seen, with no pictures

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Speaker 1: or anything like that. A lot of the early ones

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Speaker 1: don't have any pictures on them because if you did

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Speaker 1: put a picture on it, then you were shooting yourself

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Speaker 1: in the foot. Most of us did not have any

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Speaker 1: fast connection to any kind of networks, so accessing a

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Speaker 1: website with pictures meant that you would start, you know,

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Speaker 1: you navigate to the page, walk away from your computer

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Speaker 1: for ten minutes, and then come back to see if

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Speaker 1: the pictures it all loaded. I remember it well. I

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Speaker 1: particularly remember it when I was trying to view pictures

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Speaker 1: on the now defunct page. Cat scan why people would

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Speaker 1: use flatbed scanners to scan the undersides of their cats,

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Speaker 1: And yeah, you I could actually walk away and be

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Speaker 1: very British and make a cup of tea while waiting

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Speaker 1: for the photo of the cat to arrive on my computer.

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Speaker 1: I guess this is the point where I I I

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Speaker 1: mentioned that Nate has too particular great passions in life,

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Speaker 1: which include metal and cats. Yes, and the other ones,

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Speaker 1: but they are the ones I am known for. It

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Speaker 1: seems those are the those are the two I whenever

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Speaker 1: I hear anything from you on social media, there's a

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Speaker 1: there's a probably at chance it's going to fall into

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Speaker 1: one of those two categories. Yeah. So there's still quite

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Speaker 1: a few other things. But they don't they don't they

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Speaker 1: don't hit as high as slice on the pie chart. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's very true, very true. So one of the things

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Speaker 1: about the limitations of HTML that were that was a

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Speaker 1: particular thorn in the sides of early web browsers and

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Speaker 1: web users was that the limitations meant people had to

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Speaker 1: find creative ways around those limitations to create rich user experiences.

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Speaker 1: I don't think did they ever use that term in

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Speaker 1: the UK, the rich user experience that experience. Yes, I

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Speaker 1: mean we we probably heard it quite a bit. I

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Speaker 1: don't remember it particularly, but I imagine it was there

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Speaker 1: amongst all the other ones like zip drives and yeah right,

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Speaker 1: all right, uh yeah, the rich user experience. That was

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Speaker 1: something where the idea was that you wanted to create

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Speaker 1: a an experience for the user that went beyond just

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Speaker 1: simple text lines and pictures. So one of the earliest

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Speaker 1: ones would be middies that would loop and there'll be

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Speaker 1: no way to stop them. H Do remember those? Yes,

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Speaker 1: I do remember those, Yes, middies, My goodness, middies. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: So just the days of my space where you would

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Speaker 1: go to someone's MySpace page. I mean this that goes

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Speaker 1: beyond what we're talking about here, but even then, oh

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Speaker 1: the not not I'm not sad to see those days go. However,

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Speaker 1: what it meant was that people had to create software

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Speaker 1: that would be a plug in, an enhancement to a

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Speaker 1: web browser to allow users to access certain types of content,

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Speaker 1: largely streaming content, whether it was audio or video. So

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Speaker 1: if you had a web browser in those days, you

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Speaker 1: had to often enhance it with these plug ins, which

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00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 1: made the browsers clung here slower. They they required more memory,

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Speaker 1: and those days also memory was not as um plentiful

380
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Speaker 1: as it is today computer memory, so your whole computer

381
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Speaker 1: would start to run more slowly if you tried to

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Speaker 1: access anything that had any kind of you know, video

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Speaker 1: or flash animation. Flash is another example, some plug ins

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Speaker 1: that you had to have in order to get more

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Speaker 1: out of the web pages. We would not see advances

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Speaker 1: to HTML for a while that would address this. The

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Speaker 1: whole point of HTML five is to take away the

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Speaker 1: need for all these different uggins that often can become

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Speaker 1: security vulnerabilities. UM. The idea of being that this way

390
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 1: we can support those those different functions natively within HTML

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Speaker 1: and not have to have a Swiss Army knife style

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Speaker 1: web browser where you've added all these extra features. UM. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: the first version of Internet Explorer was a thousand bare

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Speaker 1: bones as you can get, and the second one came

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Speaker 1: out November twenty second, nineteen. So if you remember I

396
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Speaker 1: said the first one came out August, I E two

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Speaker 1: comes out November twenty that that's an incredibly narrow window

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Speaker 1: for an entire version upgrade. You know, it's uh fast,

399
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Speaker 1: does not really go into it. This one was for

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Speaker 1: Windows ninety five and Windows NT three point five and

401
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Speaker 1: Windows INT four point oh, so that means within three

402
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 1: once you get a full version upgrade. But that was

403
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,679
Speaker 1: actually kind of typical in the early days because the

404
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 1: browsers were being We're getting more and more advanced very quickly.

405
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Speaker 1: Everyone was really interested in this. This was the days

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Speaker 1: when the media was starting to take notice of the

407
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Speaker 1: World Wide Web and it was going beyond just uh,

408
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 1: the the governments and colleges and research facilities. So with

409
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 1: that focus, you wanted to really get your browser too

410
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,439
Speaker 1: to be uh, you know, a destination people wanted to

411
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: go to. The people needed this technology. There was another

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Speaker 1: feature that they thought people needed an Internet to explore

413
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:44,199
Speaker 1: it too. I remember what's delicious cookies? Oh you know what?

414
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 1: Those are important? Um, they have been misused and that

415
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:54,159
Speaker 1: is unfortunate. They can cause huge problems. They are definitely

416
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 1: one of those things you've got to worry about if

417
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Speaker 1: you are concerned about Internet privacy. However, that being said,

418
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,879
Speaker 1: head it's also nice to be able to navigate to

419
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Speaker 1: a website. You're in the middle of doing something you

420
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Speaker 1: have to shut down and leave. When you navigate to

421
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,160
Speaker 1: that same website on that same machine, you can pick

422
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 1: up right where you left off. That's thanks to cookies.

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Speaker 1: So cookies are just really short, short bits of data

424
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 1: really just a short, short range of bits if you

425
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Speaker 1: want to get down to it, and the act as

426
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: kind of identifier and a placeholder so that when you

427
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 1: start a session with a web page the website, the

428
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 1: web server can keep track of who you are and

429
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Speaker 1: what you are doing, so that if you do leave

430
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Speaker 1: for some reason and come back, you can pick up

431
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Speaker 1: where you left off. So in retail, for example, if

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Speaker 1: I put something in my shopping cart, but I haven't

433
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 1: completed the transaction and I leave the website, the next

434
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: time I go back to that website, I might still

435
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: have that item in the shopping cart, because the cookies

436
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: tell the server, hey, it's that same dude who just

437
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: can't commit to purchasing this squeaky toy for his dog

438
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 1: to be a great example for me. Um. So cookies

439
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 1: definitely had their place, but obviously have been They've got

440
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 1: a lot of There's a lot of bad rap about

441
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 1: cookies too, because of things like the idea of tracking

442
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,159
Speaker 1: um web browsing activity and and sharing things that you

443
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 1: might have thought were private otherwise. But they come from

444
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: a good place, they do, and they are useful. Let's

445
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 1: be honest, they are very useful. The web would not

446
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: be what the web is now in a bad way.

447
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: I think. Were it not for cookies, well yeah, I

448
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:47,360
Speaker 1: mean they just allowed the Internet to be more personal. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

449
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 1: You you know, the idea that that your experience on

450
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 1: the web is at least in some part defined by

451
00:26:55,040 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: and tuned to you, so that you have the experience

452
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 1: you want, or at least if you're working at it,

453
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,199
Speaker 1: you can have the experience you want. I wish that

454
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 1: it were effortless, so that just through the use of

455
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 1: the web it becomes the way you want. For some people,

456
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,120
Speaker 1: it becomes the way it is rather than the way

457
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 1: they want it to be because they don't know the

458
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,199
Speaker 1: tricks to, you know, kind of tune it as much

459
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: as they would like. But without cookies, it would not

460
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 1: be possible at all. You would just have the same

461
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: experience every single time you logged into any web page.

462
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: It would be as if you were there day zero,

463
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: like that's the first time you had ever visited it,

464
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 1: and you would have to go through whatever it is,

465
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: you know, like whether it's logging into a service or

466
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 1: adding things into a list, whatever that might be. You

467
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: would have to do that every single time. If it

468
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: weren't for things like cookies. Yeah. Um, the next version

469
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 1: of Internet Explorer number three, if you're keeping count, wouldn't

470
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: come along until August thirteen, So they went almost a

471
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 1: full year, unthinkable without coming up with a new version.

472
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: This was the first one to really start to get

473
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: some traction in the web browser wars because uh, the

474
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: other browsers had. First of all, you gotta keep in mind,

475
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 1: it was still a pretty small piece of the overall population.

476
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 1: Pie There weren't that many people online on the web.

477
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: In um there were, there were lots, but if you

478
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 1: compared to the number of people who weren't, it was

479
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 1: a tiny number. Uh. That being said, there were things

480
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 1: like like um Netscape and Mosaic and other browsers that

481
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: were already they already had a good share of the market,

482
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 1: so I was just starting to pick up. By the

483
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: end of ninety seven, it accounted for about a third

484
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: of the browser market, just under round. And that gets

485
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: us into the browser wars, which are like star Wars

486
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 1: but more boring. Um. But in my notes, I wrote,

487
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: many botons died to bring us this information. I so

488
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: out of uh my depth to even understand why that

489
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: is funny. The guy who hasn't even seen old Star

490
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,719
Speaker 1: Wars films. Yeah, it hurts me to hear that. But

491
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: then again, my former my my original co host, Chris Palette,

492
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: I don't think even to this day has seen the

493
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: movie Jaws. So he's he killed a small piece of

494
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 1: me that day when he revealed that information. But that,

495
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: of course is a quote from Star Wars and New

496
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: Hope when mon Mathma is explaining the um collection of

497
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 1: the data of the Death Star um that many Botans

498
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: died to bring us this. Uh. Internet Explorer three was

499
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: also the first browser that did not use the Spyglass

500
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: source code. There were elements of Spyglass technology in there,

501
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: so that was still listed in the about page on

502
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: Internet Internet Explorer. They kind of had a you know,

503
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: a license a little bit about how some of the

504
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: technology was licensed from them, but they had moved away

505
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: from Spyglass to start working on a different source code

506
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: to underlie Internet Explorer. And it was the first one

507
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: to introduce internet mail to Internet Explorer and News one

508
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: point zero and the Windows address Book. Neither of those

509
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: things would matter for very long, but they were included

510
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: in the Internet Explorer three uh, and they added in

511
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: the support for lots of the plug ins that Netscape

512
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: could use, and that goes back to what I was

513
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: talking about earlier. It increased the ability for Internet Explorer

514
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: to access certain features that otherwise would just be unplayable.

515
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 1: Get a little red x saying this doesn't work here.

516
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 1: Um yeah this also. By the way, one of the

517
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: reasons why I love the development of HTML five and

518
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: the conversion to HTML five is that I also remember

519
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: the days of those plug and leading to lots of

520
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: opportunities for hackers to create fake uh alert messages saying hey,

521
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: I know you want to see this, but you can't

522
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: unless you first download the plug in or up update

523
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: your plug in so that you can watch it. But

524
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: in fact, instead of it actually being a plug in,

525
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: it was a virus that you were agreeing to download

526
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: and install to your machine. So you get one of

527
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: those messages saying, oh, you want to watch this, but

528
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: you need to update to the latest version of real

529
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 1: Player for example. Uh. And it wasn't actually a real

530
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: Player update or or installed file. It was an install

531
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: file for some malware that ran that that was rampant

532
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: at a certain point in the history of the Internet.

533
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: So the the slow migration away from the plug in

534
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: days is something that I've been waiting for for a

535
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: long time because I get tired of answering those questions.

536
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: Um I E three also and support for cascading style sheets.

537
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: Now this again very technical part of it, but it's

538
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: basically an easy way to define the style the appearance

539
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: of a web page. One of the things that was

540
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: a big challenge in the early days of web browsers

541
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: was making sure that the web page was going to

542
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: show up the way the web designer intended it. Um, Nate,

543
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: did you ever have to build a website without the

544
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: use of a whizzy wig editor or something where you

545
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 1: had to do it in like a text editor? Um?

546
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 1: I told myself to do it. Um yeah, I do.

547
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: I do that in text and my my girlfriend Kate

548
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: actually still does. She She she can type responsive web

549
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: stuff out in by hand. It's quite impressive. That is impressive.

550
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: The first web pages I ever built, which I am

551
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: not going to share, so don't even bother looking for them,

552
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: because they're awful. If they do still exist somewhere out there,

553
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: I am embarrassed by their presence. But at any rate,

554
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: I also did that the old school way, where you

555
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: had a text editor hyped in all the markup language

556
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: and the actual content of the web page. Then you

557
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 1: would have to save it, then open up a browser

558
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: and navigate to the the proper address of that page,

559
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: which probably wasn't even published online yet, it was just

560
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: native on your computer, look to see if it was

561
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: actually showing up properly in the web browser you were using,

562
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: and then if anything wasn't, you had to quit out,

563
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: go back into your text editor, change things there, and

564
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: do it all over again. The bad thing in the

565
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: early days is that even if you've got it to

566
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: work properly on whichever web browser you were using, there

567
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: was no guarantee that someone else's web browser, a different

568
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: web browser, was going to show it in that same way.

569
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 1: So you might take entire you know, hours to painstakingly

570
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: create and craft a web page, and if anyone was

571
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: using a different web browser, they might get a totally

572
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: different experience anyway, so that you don't know how easy

573
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: you've got it with your dynamic websites and your responsive designs.

574
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 1: You know, back in those as we were working out

575
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: how to write out tables in text editors, or there

576
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,719
Speaker 1: was this one piece of software that I have been

577
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 1: a getting for free at some point, and it used

578
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: d HTML and it was actually it was whizzy Wig,

579
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 1: but it was it was like dragon drop and all

580
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 1: the positions were sort of relative, so you could have

581
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: objects anywhere and it was brilliant. Right for those of

582
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: you who don't remember, don't know what that acronym stands for,

583
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,280
Speaker 1: it's what you see is what you get. The idea

584
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: being that you have an editor that lets you edit

585
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: within like you you were actually seeing what the web

586
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 1: page looks like as you're building it, so you don't

587
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 1: have to do this swap between code and the appearance

588
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 1: of the page. It's all there, like you might be able.

589
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 1: Most of them have an HTML editor components, so you

590
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 1: can switch it to HTML and just see the markup

591
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: language and type in that way if you want to.

592
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: But a lot of them have it where there are

593
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 1: different templates that are built out. Their entire business is

594
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 1: based on that, and some of them do it incredibly well.

595
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: I used them, in fact, when I'm building web pages

596
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: these days, because while I remember doing HTML coding, uh,

597
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 1: that was also when there were very few tags, So

598
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: I don't think I could do it today because it

599
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: would look like a website from if I were to

600
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 1: build one today. Uh, that way, and and while that

601
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: would be comedic, it would not be very useful. Um.

602
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 1: Internet Explorer three was also when we got a very

603
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: important development with I E. That is the logo of

604
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 1: the lower case, so that you get that icon the

605
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: lower case that represents Internet Explorer. I don't know what

606
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 1: our world would be like if they had gone with

607
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:47,800
Speaker 1: something else w the web. Maybe you know it's madness,

608
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: Nate's mad Yes, that's that. That would have led to

609
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: great strife in the world. Uh. And nine days after

610
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: I E three came out, security experts discovered a backdoor

611
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 1: vulnerability that they called the Princeton word macro virus loophole,

612
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: so it had a very catchy name. Backdoor vulnerabilities are

613
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 1: seriously bad news no matter what software you're talking about.

614
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 1: That's the sort of vulnerability that gives an attacker access

615
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: to your machine at whatever level you are logged in at. So,

616
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 1: if for example, you had your Windows machine, you are

617
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 1: logged in as an admin on that machine. Let's say

618
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: that's the level of access you have, and if this

619
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 1: is your personal computer, then yes, that's the access you have.

620
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: This backdoor would give people that access, which is bad news.

621
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 1: I mean, they could make your computer do whatever they

622
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 1: wanted to at that point, installed software that you didn't

623
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,280
Speaker 1: intend to have installed, or direct your computer to attack

624
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 1: other other computers. Mostly I would just I would just

625
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 1: mostly open people's CD draws, print things out, leave messages

626
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: on that screen, you know, fire up the Simpsons Dust game,

627
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. I do know, I do know.

628
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: I have seen that happen. I remember seeing someone who

629
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 1: had UM allowed that and their c D drawer the

630
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: little the little drive door would open and close over

631
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 1: and over and there, like I don't know what's happening,

632
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: except what's happened is you've downloaded something you shouldn't have

633
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 1: that has handed over control to your computers. So we're

634
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,839
Speaker 1: gonna start in safe mode and we'll begin from there

635
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: and see if we can fix this. Yeah. And and

636
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:34,399
Speaker 1: it's still buns like buddy while we're at it. Yeah yeah, man. Well,

637
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:38,399
Speaker 1: in all, Internet Explorer would account for about a third

638
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,399
Speaker 1: of the browlser market, like I was talking about. That's

639
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: where they really started to get traction. And in nine

640
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: the n c s A stops supporting the development of Mosaic,

641
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: so the the web browser that really started all this

642
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,879
Speaker 1: off in a real way had finally kind of run

643
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: out of steam on the developed inside. But the the

644
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,720
Speaker 1: browsers that still use that basic technology and had continued

645
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: to develop it, they they kept going, like Netscape Navigator

646
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 1: continued on, although of course they had they had forked

647
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 1: off of the Mosaic source code, so it was not

648
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 1: the exact same stuff that was Mosaic. It had changed

649
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: an evolved on its own. It's kind of like if

650
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 1: you look at an evolutionary tree and you see where

651
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 1: two different species have forked same sort of thing here,

652
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 1: except we're talking about computer programs obviously, and n was

653
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 1: also in. Spyglass threatened Microsoft with a contractual audit because

654
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: of that quarterly fee royalty arrangement we talked about earlier.

655
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 1: The fact that they were getting this quarterly fee but

656
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: not really any royalties had kind of upset Spyglass because

657
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: they said, well, when we agreed to this, the implication

658
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 1: was that Internet Explorer or whatever the web browser was

659
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: going to be called at that time, was going to

660
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: be a separate product. It was gonna be something sold

661
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 1: by Microsoft instead of bundled with Windows UM and ended

662
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:09,359
Speaker 1: up prompting Microsoft to settle with spy Glass. I think

663
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,360
Speaker 1: the sum I see most frequently is eight million dollars,

664
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 1: which it's not a small amount of money, but when

665
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 1: you compare it to some of the huge deals going

666
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 1: on seemingly casually in the world of tech and especially

667
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 1: the world of the Internet, it's a pittance tiny mountain.

668
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: And for Microsoft, yeah, oh yes, especially for Microsoft. Eight

669
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: million dollars it's probably what they have in between the

670
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: cushions of their executive lounge couch. You just sort through

671
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 1: there and kind of spare eight or nine million dollars,

672
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 1: I'm sure, um, which I think, if you convert into

673
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: English currency is approximately fifteen pounds. I'm not entirely sure.

674
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 1: I'm not good with that sort of thing, but I

675
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 1: know it's like the exchange rates so old messed up.

676
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 1: At the moment, all I know is that whenever I

677
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: visit London and I'm always looking for deals because I

678
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 1: realized I don't know, I honestly don't know how much

679
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:12,879
Speaker 1: money I'm spending right now. Um. Internet Explorer four comes

680
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 1: out in that is marketed with the slogan the Web

681
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 1: the way you want it, uh, which I guess is

682
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 1: true if you don't want it to be particularly good. Um.

683
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 1: It also handled rich text files and plain text email

684
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 1: in their internet mail and news program, which was now

685
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: Outlook Express for. It's called Outlook Express for, but it

686
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 1: really was the first Outlook Express. This is where we

687
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 1: run into Microsoft's habit of numbering things in a way

688
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 1: that probably makes sense to someone in Microsoft and no

689
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: sense to anyone else. Like, I don't know, why is

690
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,479
Speaker 1: Windows ten Windows ten when it could have been Windows nine,

691
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,399
Speaker 1: Apart from the fact that calling it Windows nine could

692
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: have caused some confusion with people who are running legacy

693
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 1: systems that store lie on Windows in an era. In

694
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 1: an aera, Jonathan, my friend, where we have the iPhone

695
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 1: five S and the Galaxy S five, I think we

696
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,360
Speaker 1: are in an era where we need to have Windows

697
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 1: ten and OS ten. Yeah, okay, all right, I'm fine

698
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: with that, I guess I honestly, at this point we

699
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,399
Speaker 1: could just say, all right, letters and numbers make no

700
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,720
Speaker 1: difference in the world of the Internet, so just just

701
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,800
Speaker 1: just go with it. Um, so we don't have HTML

702
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 1: email support and an Outlook Express for that, you could

703
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 1: just do rich text files and plain text emails, so

704
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 1: you didn't get any of the incredibly fun stuff like

705
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: people sending you pictures in the middle of their emails. Ah,

706
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: And what if you're detecting some lackluster enthusiasm in my voice,

707
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: it's because those jokes only go so far with me.

708
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 1: So please don't send me emails with lots of pictures

709
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,320
Speaker 1: in them. But first of all, my my outlook immediately

710
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 1: blocks them unless I tell it to allow the photos.

711
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: But you're just wasting bandwidth. Really, um, I'm not a

712
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,439
Speaker 1: huge fan of those, but but obviously makes it look

713
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: better than it would if it were just a rich

714
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:22,280
Speaker 1: text file. And they integrated real Player as a streaming

715
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 1: media player within Internet Explorer. For um, do you remember

716
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 1: those days, Nate, where yes I do. I do, the

717
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: beautiful days of real Player playing inside Internet Explorer. Yes,

718
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 1: those those wonderful days. I love those days. I'll tell

719
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 1: you every interesting Real Player fact. Real Player used to

720
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 1: be brilliant, m right, real What real did was fantastic.

721
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: It actually made video stream properly back in the day.

722
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 1: While the player itself might have been a clunky mess,

723
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,839
Speaker 1: the compression they used was genuinely some of the most

724
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 1: innovative online technology in my opinion. Um, The problem is

725
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 1: that everything else about it was awful, and bundled is

726
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,800
Speaker 1: a plug in also made a clunky experience, so it

727
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,720
Speaker 1: just it just always felt like a pole piece of technology.

728
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: But actually what he did was fantastic. Yeah. There was

729
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: a time where I mean I just remember so this,

730
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: this held true for very way too long, where there

731
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,840
Speaker 1: were competing plugins and in order to for you to

732
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: be able to watch video online, it meant that you

733
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:36,240
Speaker 1: had to have three or four plug ins on your browser.

734
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 1: Because one site would use one format, another site would

735
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 1: use someone be flash based, someone be uh, you know,

736
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:45,720
Speaker 1: a real player base. You would have all these different

737
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 1: competing formats, and you didn't have a lot of options

738
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: of like a one player fits all kind of solutions.

739
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 1: So it ended up meaning that you had to add

740
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 1: all these different plug ins if you wanted to be

741
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,720
Speaker 1: able to experience all this different media across different sites.

742
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 1: I don't miss those days at all. I mean Microsoft

743
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: really held onto it for a long time. Silver Light

744
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,280
Speaker 1: was one of those things that when I would encounter

745
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 1: it online and I would see something like, oh, you

746
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 1: need to download silver Light to see this, I thought, really,

747
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,399
Speaker 1: we are we really still there? Yeah? Can we get

748
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: beyond that? And just have everyone say, Okay, I wanted

749
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 1: to be the person to or the entity to define

750
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 1: what the standard was, but at some point I have

751
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 1: to admit my approach is not what has been considered standard,

752
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: and I'm going to get on board with what everyone

753
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: else is doing. It wasn't like that for a very

754
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: long time. In fact, you could argue it's still not

755
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 1: like that with certain types of media. But it just

756
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 1: made it. It made it no fun really, like you

757
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 1: would go to a side thing, Oh, I have to

758
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,759
Speaker 1: add another place in, which again added that vulnerability. If

759
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: you had to add in plug in after plug in,

760
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 1: eventually you got um, you know, you got conditioned to

761
00:44:57,760 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 1: the point where you thought, oh, of course I'm gonna

762
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: need another plug again to see whatever this thing is.

763
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 1: Never mind the fact that it's a plug in that

764
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 1: I don't recognize and that I've never you know, heard

765
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,240
Speaker 1: of before. I'll go ahead and install it, and then

766
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:13,879
Speaker 1: you make your system vulnerable. It's just one of those

767
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 1: things that was a necessity at the time. And I think, really,

768
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:22,759
Speaker 1: what what plugins did is they just fueled innovation. You know,

769
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 1: like a lot of what is plugging, what was a

770
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 1: plug in back in the day, is now either baked

771
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 1: into the browser or is baked into HTML itself. You know,

772
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 1: when you think about HTML five supporting new video formats

773
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 1: um you know, like web m that Google is behind.

774
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 1: You know, that's something that back in the day you

775
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:45,959
Speaker 1: would need, you know, a plug in for. You don't

776
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 1: need those anymore, And it was probably a necessary life cycle,

777
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,359
Speaker 1: that's true. I mean without it, then web pages would

778
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:59,280
Speaker 1: be very bland and limited and would not be nearly

779
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 1: as important or influential as the web has become over

780
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,879
Speaker 1: the years. I mean, you know, this is also we're

781
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,439
Speaker 1: looking at now. We're looking at the late nineties when

782
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 1: we're starting to get to a fever pitch of what

783
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,720
Speaker 1: the web could be, uh, you know, which of course

784
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:21,760
Speaker 1: culminated in and then collapsed with the dot com bubble bursting.

785
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:26,760
Speaker 1: Um that whole era, everyone was starting to see what

786
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: the web could potentially be. But if we relied simply

787
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: upon what HTML could deliver back in those days, the

788
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 1: web would have been a lot more you know, utilitarian

789
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:43,240
Speaker 1: and less interesting. So I definitely agree that the plug

790
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 1: ins were a necessary part. It was also just as

791
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 1: living through it. It just was also frustrating. UM I

792
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,359
Speaker 1: for also supported dynamic HTML for the first time, which

793
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 1: allowed for more interactive web pages. Again that rich user

794
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 1: experience we were talking about earlier, that was an important element,

795
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 1: and by bundling Internet Explorer with Windows, Microsoft ends up

796
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 1: leveraging itself into a sixt in market share of all

797
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 1: web browsers. This was a huge story to really turned

798
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 1: things around, going from an underdog to the major player

799
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 1: out of all browsers. So not just um, you know

800
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: Mozilla's or or Netscape rather uh netscapes Navigator. Now, if

801
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 1: you add in all the different competitors, they paled, but

802
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 1: it was partly because the market share for PCs far

803
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 1: outweighed other computer platforms, especially for businesses and casual users. UM.

804
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 1: I mean, you obviously still had a lot of Unix

805
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: machines running server software and in in various research and

806
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 1: and R and D areas things like that. But if

807
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:55,760
Speaker 1: you're talking about the average person, they owned a PC.

808
00:47:55,880 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: The Mac was not a competitor really at this time. Uh.

809
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 1: And that meant that if you were going to buy

810
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 1: a PC and you had a web browser just bundled

811
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 1: in with it, it made sense to go ahead and

812
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 1: use it. In fact, for people who were not really

813
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 1: savvy with the web that was there. It was it

814
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:14,800
Speaker 1: was either A O L. Was the web here in

815
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 1: the US, or it was an Internet to Yeah, and

816
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 1: it was here too. The A well, some of my

817
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 1: first Web experiences were h were A O L. The

818
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: World garden, yep, happy, happy times simple. Yeah. Isn't it

819
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 1: great when an entity that decides what is and isn't

820
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 1: the web for you? That makes that makes life so

821
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 1: much easier? So may this is where we get into

822
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 1: where Microsoft runs into some trouble because of this policy

823
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 1: of lumping Internet Explorer in with its operating system, UH,

824
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 1: the United States government brought a lawsuit against Microsoft Corporation.

825
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 1: In fact, the Department of Justice was looking at an

826
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 1: antitrust suit saying that the company practiced predatory strategies to

827
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 1: push other companies out of the web browser market and

828
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:08,399
Speaker 1: the operating system market, as it turns out, saying that

829
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: because they had packaged Internet Explorer with the operating system,

830
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,479
Speaker 1: and because the operating system was really the only game

831
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 1: in town for the most part, for operating systems had

832
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,840
Speaker 1: the majority market share. If you were buying a PC,

833
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: more often than not, it was going to have Windows

834
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:29,360
Speaker 1: preloaded on it. They were essentially saying you have stacked

835
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 1: the deck against any competing company and you're pushing them out,

836
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,320
Speaker 1: and that's not fair. It's that's why we're bringing this

837
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 1: antitrust suit against you. This was big news, and it

838
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 1: wasn't the only place where Microsoft was having issues. That

839
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 1: it was also having problems in Europe. There were European

840
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 1: antitrust suits brought against Microsoft. They were actually looking at

841
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,879
Speaker 1: more interesting things in a way. They were looking at

842
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 1: how there were also allegations that the operating system had

843
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 1: been designed so that it worked really well with the

844
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 1: Internet Explorer and bit work so well with any other browser,

845
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 1: almost as if Microsoft had taken pains to create an

846
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 1: operating system that would on purpose decrease the use and

847
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 1: utility of competing web browsers. And that was a huge

848
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 1: red flag. Um, So you had these these massive antitrust

849
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 1: lawsuits going up against Microsoft that wouldn't be resolved for years.

850
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 1: I mean, we all know these lawsuits can last ages. Uh,

851
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,479
Speaker 1: And in fact, it wouldn't pan out in the US

852
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 1: until two thousand one, and there would be this enormous settlement.

853
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:47,719
Speaker 1: And originally the ruling told Microsoft of the Department Justice said, hey,

854
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 1: you're gonna have to split your company into two companies.

855
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 1: You're gonna have to have one that is building the

856
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 1: operating system business and one that's building the software that

857
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 1: exists on top of the operating system. But they're gonna

858
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,840
Speaker 1: have to operate as two separate entities, because if you

859
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:06,839
Speaker 1: packaged them all together, you have an unfair advantage over

860
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 1: anyone who wants to build software for that operating system. Ultimately,

861
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 1: that did not happen. I mean, if you are aware

862
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 1: of Microsoft is a single company hasn't been split. But

863
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:21,319
Speaker 1: that was originally what the ruling was, um, and it

864
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 1: was a huge It was a huge news item in

865
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 1: the day because anyone who wanted to use any other

866
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 1: web browser was already mad at Microsoft for appearing to

867
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 1: make it more difficult to use those web browsers. So

868
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 1: I remember those days well too, because already at that

869
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:41,479
Speaker 1: point I was not a huge and like I said,

870
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 1: I had been using Netscape Navigator as my early web

871
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 1: browser for years and years, partly because when I first

872
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 1: started using the web, I was a college student. So

873
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 1: I got Netscape Navigator for free because it was a

874
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:56,919
Speaker 1: college application, UM, I didn't have to purchase it. In fact,

875
00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 1: I was I was pretty stingy about purchasing one for

876
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 1: a long time. I was like, why should I pay

877
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 1: for this thing that I've had for free for so long? Um,

878
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 1: And I didn't like the way Internet Explorer rendered web

879
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 1: pages or the user interface or anything. So I was

880
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,800
Speaker 1: very upset at this time when I heard about about this.

881
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 1: I mean, this was I. Internet Explorer at this point

882
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: was actually available on the Mac. This was one of

883
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 1: the last ones actually that was available in the Mac

884
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 1: I E five I think was the very last one

885
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 1: they made. Yeah, so you could actually you could actually

886
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:30,319
Speaker 1: use Internet Explorer on the Macintosh at this time. Yeah.

887
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:33,319
Speaker 1: To be fair, though, the Mac was not not what

888
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 1: it is today in those things this was. This is

889
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:38,880
Speaker 1: that These are also the days where Steve jobs have

890
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 1: been forced out of Apple for a while and was

891
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 1: just starting to come back to redefine what the Mac was.

892
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 1: This is almost almost exactly the time he came back,

893
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 1: and this was just before the iMac was released, if

894
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 1: not almost depending on the particular part of the history

895
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 1: where we're on, almost month wise at the moment, this

896
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 1: is this is when that happened. Yeah, so we've got

897
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:09,360
Speaker 1: this this lawsuit going on. It hasn't starts. I was

898
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 1: the the dominant web browser, which was not helping Microsoft's

899
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 1: case and that lawsuit. It was essentially being pointed at

900
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 1: a c if if people are complaining about how this

901
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:25,760
Speaker 1: browser matches up against other browsers, how can you argue

902
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 1: that the customer satisfaction or the desire for this particular

903
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 1: web browsers, what's driving the dominance in the market. It's

904
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:36,320
Speaker 1: clearly because it's tied so intricately with the upberating system.

905
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:38,920
Speaker 1: That would be the kind of argument that the Department

906
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 1: of Justice would level against Microsoft. But it was I mean,

907
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 1: this was I at this point was just so key

908
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 1: to Microsoft. Yeah, it had like a thousand people working

909
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 1: on it at this point, just on the browser, from

910
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:56,799
Speaker 1: from the six people of I E one to the

911
00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 1: one thousand and a hundred million dollars being being invested

912
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 1: every quarter into or actually every year at this point

913
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,439
Speaker 1: into Internet Explorer. This is then the I E five

914
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:13,279
Speaker 1: days because that came out in March. Um they had

915
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 1: had a couple of preview versions come out. Was when

916
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 1: they officially launched it. Ah, this was the one that

917
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:25,240
Speaker 1: would come with Windows second Edition as well as Windows

918
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 1: two thousand and the dot com boom. I mean, this

919
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 1: is a thousand people working on Internet Explorer, a hundred

920
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 1: million dollars a year. This is this is the these

921
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 1: are the months just before the dot com bubble burst.

922
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 1: And it's also this is one where if you were

923
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 1: a user, you probably wouldn't have noticed a huge difference

924
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 1: in the interface between four and five, but a lot

925
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 1: of the stuff that was going on behind the scenes

926
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:56,279
Speaker 1: right the back end of the browser had been upgraded,

927
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 1: which prompted Paul four ought to that I E five

928
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:04,279
Speaker 1: point oh is I E four point oh done right? So,

929
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:07,879
Speaker 1: in other words, the the things that were innovative in

930
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:10,440
Speaker 1: Internet Explorer four, but we're still kind of clunky. We're

931
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:13,759
Speaker 1: now much more smooth in the new version. So I

932
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 1: E five was seen as a big step up, um,

933
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 1: and that was really important because we had this huge

934
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 1: boom of innovation in the dot com world, which as

935
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 1: we all know, was not sustainable uh long term anyway,

936
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 1: but it was. There was There was no greater moment

937
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 1: of focus in the media upon the Internet than at

938
00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:41,879
Speaker 1: this time. I would argue even today, as as instrumental

939
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 1: and important as the Internet is, and as we have

940
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 1: all these different ways of accessing it, including applications that

941
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 1: can work with the web or separately from the Web,

942
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 1: things like Twitter and Facebook. I would say that in

943
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 1: this time, the late nineties going right into two thousand,

944
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:01,800
Speaker 1: that was when we were at the eek a focus

945
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:06,280
Speaker 1: on the Internet, specifically on the World Wide Web. Um

946
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:09,279
Speaker 1: and uh, you know this is it's funny because if

947
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 1: you look at the news reports from a couple of

948
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 1: years before this, that was when you had like the

949
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 1: the stuff that was caught on camera but not originally broadcast,

950
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:21,239
Speaker 1: where you had news anchors kind of talking about what

951
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 1: is this web thing? What is that? What's that a

952
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:30,960
Speaker 1: symbol for? What is email? Like it was exactly. It

953
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 1: went from that to everyone now has to have a website.

954
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 1: If you were a business, you had to have a website.

955
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:38,919
Speaker 1: Didn't matter if you had anything important to put on there,

956
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 1: but you had to have a website. Um. You know

957
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:44,719
Speaker 1: that was that was the day and and I E

958
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:48,279
Speaker 1: five was the perfect browser at the perfect time to

959
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:52,800
Speaker 1: really you know, tap into that, which is is good

960
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 1: because I E six would be at almost degree turned

961
00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:00,759
Speaker 1: from that. So so before that, just one little sad

962
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:05,080
Speaker 1: bit of news on March two thousand, Spyglass was bought

963
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:07,799
Speaker 1: out by Open TV, and Spyglass became no more. Now

964
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:10,880
Speaker 1: that was, of course, the company that had licensed the

965
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 1: mosaic technology from the n C s A and then

966
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 1: further licensed it to Microsoft. It no longer existed as

967
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 1: a entity of its own at that point. Alright, guys,

968
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 1: this is where I'm going to split up the episodes.

969
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:27,440
Speaker 1: Like Nate and I were saying, it's just way too

970
00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 1: much information to make it a single episode. Uh, we

971
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 1: will continue this conversation with where Internet Explorer went from

972
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 1: this point forward and where it's going next, which seems

973
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 1: to be the end of Nowhere Street. And we'll also

974
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:48,000
Speaker 1: talk about the successor to Internet Explorer. And it's a

975
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 1: name that I just learned today because when we recorded

976
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:56,640
Speaker 1: the episode, Microsoft had not yet announced it. But we

977
00:57:56,760 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 1: now know that Project Spartan is Microsoft. We'll talk about

978
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 1: that more in the next episode two, although we'll still

979
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 1: be using the word Spartan because I can't go back

980
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 1: to time and fix that anyway. If you have any

981
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 1: suggestions for future episodes of Text Stuff, whether it is

982
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:14,000
Speaker 1: a specific topic, a guest I could have on the show,

983
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 1: guest host that you love to have here on Tech

984
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:21,480
Speaker 1: Stuff with me let me know, Send me an email

985
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:24,760
Speaker 1: said addresses tech stuff at how stuff works dot com,

986
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 1: or drop me a line on Facebook or Twitter or

987
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:31,080
Speaker 1: Tumbler at all three, I am tech Stuff H s W.

988
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:39,520
Speaker 1: And we'll talk to you again really soon. For more

989
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics is how stuff

990
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 1: works dot com