1 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:10,959 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. Today is Saturday, so we have a 3 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: vault episode for you. This is going to be part 4 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: four of our series, Part four of four titled Life 5 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: in the Hypogenean World. We're gonna wrap this one up today, 6 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: so let's dive right in. This originally published three fourteen, 7 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. 8 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 9 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 10 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: is Robert. 11 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 3: Lamb, and I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with 12 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 3: the fourth and final part of our series on cave 13 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 3: biology and cave environments. If you haven't listened to the 14 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 3: other parts already, this will probably be a richer experience 15 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 3: if you go back and check those out first. In 16 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 3: the previous parts, we talked about some of the common 17 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 3: characteristics of cave environments, especially as they pertain to the 18 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 3: life forms that might inhabit caves. We talked about the 19 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 3: different types of organisms you find in caves, the ones 20 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 3: that are fully cave adapted versus the ones that are 21 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 3: only visitors. We talked about cave adapted organisms such as 22 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 3: the blind Mexican cavefish, also known as the Mexican tetra 23 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 3: the ome, which is a type of cave salamander found 24 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 3: in the Dynaric Alps. We talked about bat guano, We 25 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 3: talked about snakes that hide in caves and attack bats 26 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 3: as they come and go. We got into a lot 27 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 3: of great stuff, and today we're here to round out 28 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 3: the series. 29 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, with a lot of like a lot of our 30 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: multi part episodes, it's kind of like the first episode 31 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: is kind of like a lot of the initial information 32 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: you need, and then the second episode this is where 33 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: you find some of the core stuff that attracted us 34 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: to the topic to begin with. Part three we kind 35 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: of like fill in with a little more data some 36 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: other interest entries in said series in the fourth episode 37 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: or whatever the final episode happens to be. Generally, that's 38 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: where it's like, what's left. What's the thing that came 39 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: up in our research that we didn't know we were 40 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 1: going to be excited about, or or in some cases, 41 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: maybe what's the weird tangential connection that also came up 42 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 1: or we found ourselves drifting into in the in our journey. Oh, 43 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: I think that's a good way to characterize it. So 44 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 1: what have you got, rob Well? I mentioned this earlier. 45 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: I forget which of the earlier episodes, but I mentioned 46 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: the extinct cave bear in Passing, and I would just 47 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: kind of kept touching back in on the subject as 48 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: we were working on the other episodes, and finally I 49 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: was like, Yeah, we need to go in a little 50 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: deeper and talk about what is ultimately like a really 51 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: fascinating organism. There have been disagreements and mysteries regarding it, 52 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: and it is an organism that, while no longer with us, 53 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 1: does overlap with our ancestors. You know, it was an 54 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: ice age creature. Include did here for you, Joe a 55 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: reconstruction and image of what one of these bears would 56 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: have looked like potentially, And in a bit I'll get 57 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 1: into like what are some of the main anatomical features? 58 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 1: But just looking at you can tell this is a 59 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: very huge bear. If it doesn't look that different from say, 60 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: like a large you know, grizzly bear, brown bear of 61 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 1: some sort. Coloration is brownish, but one might notice that 62 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: the head is enormous. It has a much bigger head 63 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: than one might expect, certainly on an extant bear. 64 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, it looks a lot like a grizzly. Though I'm 65 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 3: no bear expert, it does appear to me in this 66 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 3: reconstruction to have a somewhat shorter snout and the and 67 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 3: the sort of boxier. 68 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: Head boxier and I'm to understand would have been what 69 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: would have appeared wider as well. So we're talking about 70 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: Ursus spilaeus. It's a member of the Ursus genus, alongside 71 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: the brown bear, which includes grizzly subspecies, among others, the 72 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: polar bear, the American black bear, and the Asian black bear. 73 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: That means it's naturally a member of the larger Ursudae family, 74 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: which also includes the likes of giant pandas, short face 75 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 1: bears and others. 76 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 3: Oh, I didn't realize pandas were technically in that family. 77 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Like one of the interesting things about pandas 78 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 1: is that pandas are herbivores for the most part, but 79 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:33,119 Speaker 1: they still have a carnivores digestive system, and they still 80 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: have like carnivore jeans, So they're pretty fascinating in their 81 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: own right. You know, it's easy to overlook how interesting 82 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: pandas are, especially if you go to a zoo and 83 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: you see one in captivity that is probably not doing 84 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: much other than sleeping or eating pamboo. 85 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 3: The last time I went to a zoo, the thing 86 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 3: I saw that filled me with the most joy was 87 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 3: actually vicarious joy through a panda when I saw the 88 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 3: feeders through some new bamboo into the enclosure, and the 89 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 3: panda went up to the pile of bamboo and literally 90 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 3: just flopped in. It, just flopped down in its food, like, ah, 91 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 3: give it to me. 92 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: It is literally their favorite thing, Yeah, rolling around in it. 93 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: More on this connection to the panda in a minute here, 94 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: but yeah, the cave bear when extinct. I do want 95 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: to highlight that the exact timing for this depends on 96 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: exactly what sources and what evidence you're looking at. I've 97 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: seen between twenty eight and twenty seven thousand years ago 98 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: during the last glacial maximum. I've seen twenty four thousand 99 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: years ago, and in some sources, some of the older sources, 100 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: you also see fifteen thousand years ago cited as an 101 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: extinction point. But I believe an earlier point in twenty eight, 102 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: twenty seven, maybe twenty four is generally favored by scientists today. 103 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: That's generally the range. The broader range in which I'm 104 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: tending to see the numbers and the sources I was 105 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: looking at. And the interesting thing about the cave bear, too, 106 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: is that this animal is a recent enough denizen of 107 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: the planet that we have been able to study its 108 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: soft tissue in addition to its bones, and it's actual 109 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: you know, we're able to study like the chemical composition 110 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 1: of its bones. There was even a frozen specimen discovered 111 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, I believe, and we've been able to 112 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: sequence its genome, so we're able to learn a fair 113 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: amount about what they were and what they did, though 114 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 1: certain mysteries remain about, you know, their exact lifestyles, their 115 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: interactions with other organisms and so forth. Well, let's come 116 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: back to the cave theme, right, because that's the umbrella 117 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 1: in which we're just under which we're discussing the cave bear. Here, 118 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: we're of course, not talking about an obligate cave dweller. 119 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:39,359 Speaker 1: This is not a blind, hairless bear living in the depths, 120 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: as I'm suddenly realizing. As interesting as that might be, 121 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: I'm assuming some fantasy weaver has done something like that before. 122 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: But now this would have had at best been a 123 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: troglophilic creature. 124 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 3: Okay, so the troglophilic creature enjoys visiting caves. It may 125 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 3: visit caves for a number of reasons, but it doesn't 126 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 3: live there permanently, and it's not biologically adapted to full 127 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 3: time life in the caves. 128 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like it's not just hanging out in there all 129 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: the time, eating bats or anything. But you know, the 130 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: cave moniker can be confusing with a lot of these 131 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: species because of course we speak of cave men either 132 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: in terms of prehistoric Homo sapiens or Neanderthals. Though even 133 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: with the latter, who certainly did utilize cave environments as 134 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: did humans, they used open air sites for various activities 135 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: as well, it seems, so it's not like they just 136 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: lived in caves or or and they're certainly not creatures 137 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: that were obligate cave dwellers. Plus, the cave moniker sometimes 138 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: has as much to do, if not more, to do 139 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: with the places where we've discovered the remains, because, as 140 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: we've touched on before, I think in this series and 141 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: probably in general, like caves are a great place for 142 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: remains to be preserved. To some degree, I saw a 143 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: paper that was quoting an expert on cave bears. It 144 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: was like the bears slept in caves and they had 145 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: the good fortune to die in them, something to that effect. 146 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: You know, they're like, fortunately for us, they died in 147 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: caves a lot, and so we have a lot of 148 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: remains to look at. But anyway, just because we have 149 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: come to refer to a creature as a cave animal, 150 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily mean that it lived in caves. The 151 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: main example of this era would be the cave lion 152 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: or Panthera spileea, also known as the step lion, which 153 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: is now understood to have largely lived in open areas 154 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: and possibly woodlands. But we know them a lot of 155 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: We know a lot about them from skeletal remains found 156 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,719 Speaker 1: in caves, thus cave lions. 157 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 3: But it's not thought that that's where they spent a 158 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 3: huge amount of their time. It's more just like we 159 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 3: happen to have gotten some remains from caves. 160 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: That's right, yeah, I mean there are remains found in 161 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: caves are apparently best understood as on one hand, perhaps 162 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: the accumulations or middens of extinct cave hyenas. These this 163 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: was all This is also known as the Ice Age 164 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: spotted hyena that would have scavenged carcasses and brought them 165 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: back to the caves where they lived, or at least 166 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: the cave openings where they lived. These would have been 167 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: This is an example of something that did live in 168 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: caves based on our current understanding, and so they would 169 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: have hoarded, scavenged, and killed prey in such places, while 170 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 1: also competing apparently with Neanderthals for some of the same 171 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: cave environments. Oh interesting, But back to the cave lion. 172 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: It is also thought that they might have ventured into 173 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: caves during the winter, especially in search of hibernating bears 174 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: that might in some cases be easier to pick off, 175 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: especially if they were desperate for the food. And they 176 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: also may have periodically entered caves in order to steal 177 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: food away from cave hyenas, though to be sure, it 178 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 1: seems like they largely preyed on larger wild herbivores like 179 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: the wild horse and the bison. Either way, cave lions 180 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: wound up in caves and cave environments helped preserve their 181 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: bones for future excavation by humans, who, at least at 182 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: first like, oh, this is a cave line, we found 183 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:03,079 Speaker 1: it in a cave. 184 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 3: But I assume you're saying that researchers do not believe 185 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 3: the same kind of naming error was made with cave bears. 186 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 3: The cave bears really do seem largely involved with caves. 187 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, that's the consensus. So you know, what were 188 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: cave bears. We talked a little bit about what they 189 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: look like already. They were very large bears, comparable to 190 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: or even larger than any of the bears we know today, 191 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: even the mighty polar bears and Kodiak bears, which depending 192 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: on who you're talking to, these are kind of like 193 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: the two extant species of bears that are often held 194 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: up as the biggest. So male cave bears could range 195 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 1: and wait. One estimate I saw was three fifty to 196 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: six hundred kilograms or seven hundred and seventy to three 197 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: hundred and twenty pounds. I've also seen like the four 198 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,959 Speaker 1: hundred to one thousand kilogram estimate, about eight hundred and 199 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:59,199 Speaker 1: eighty to two two hundred pounds. Again, it's going to vary. 200 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: The male were bigger than the females and so forth, 201 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: But anyway you cut it, big bears, big heavy bears. 202 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: Their weight would have fluctuated depending on where they were seasonally, 203 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 1: where their diet was, what the overall climate happened to be. 204 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: But yes, these were very large bears. And therefore, as 205 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: you can imagine, not just any cave is going to do. 206 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: Cave has to be large enough to hold a bear. Now, 207 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: speaking of these caves, I was reading about them a 208 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: little bit. I was looking a few different sources. But 209 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: I've had this book on my shelf for years and 210 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: I hadn't really cracked it open. But it's by one 211 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:46,559 Speaker 1: wolf Dee Storal titled Bear Myth, Animal and Icon. This author, 212 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: by the way, I think he's generally more considered an 213 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 1: anthropologist and an ethnobotanist, and I'm to understand his views 214 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: have ventured into some areas that may be considered more 215 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: esoteric and even controversial, but I don't think any of 216 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,839 Speaker 1: that applies to this work. Okay, Anyway, the author here 217 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: points to another connection who is kind of similar to 218 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: something we discussed I believe in the last episode with 219 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: the with the Ohm, a connection between an actual cave 220 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: organism and traditions concerning the dragon. There's a cave in 221 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 1: Austria known as Drakenhole or Dragons hole so named because 222 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: the copious amounts of cave bear bones in there were 223 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: apparently interpreted during the Middle Ages as the bones of dragons. 224 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: The cave is located near a place called mix Nitz 225 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: and is associated with the legend of the dragon slayer 226 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: of mix Nitz. I was looking around. I couldn't find 227 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: what felt like a definitive analysis or retelling of this legend. 228 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 1: But I saw some ride ups where it seems like it's, 229 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: you know, you, on one level, your typical tale of 230 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: a dragon slayer. But it did seem based on the 231 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 1: one telling I found that the dragon slayer here uses 232 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 1: an ingenius trap rather than overt combat to kill the dragon. 233 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: Like it has to do with like a sharpened spikes 234 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: and left out to gouge into the dragon's flesh and 235 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: then it goes off and dies. That sort of thing, 236 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: you know, kind of your predator model of overcoming your foe. 237 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 3: Oh that's my kind of tale. I always love a 238 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 3: monster trap. 239 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're probably wondering, Okay, this cave is full 240 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: of cave bear bones. How many bones we're talking about? 241 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 1: You know, we're talking about like two or three individuals, 242 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: maybe a dozen individuals, you know, maybe a dusty old 243 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: set of cave bones near one corner a skull and 244 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: the other. No, no, no, we're talking about the bones 245 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: of an estimated thirty thousand cave bears. Thirty thousand. 246 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 3: Wow. 247 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. Other bones were apparently also found in this particular cave, 248 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: including those those of the cave line apparently, but we're 249 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 1: mostly talking about cave bears here, and in quite an abundance. 250 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 3: You have to think how long they would have been 251 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 3: accumulating there for it's unbelievable. 252 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we would be dealing with a situation here 253 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: where the bears lived in these caves, hibernated in these caves, 254 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: and died in these caves for thousands and thousands of years. 255 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: So like recent genetic data apparently indicates that cave beer 256 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 1: populations in Europe, specifically along the Danube River were stable 257 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: for a good one hundred thousand years or more. So, yeah, 258 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: you're dealing with lots of bears living and dying in 259 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: these locations. 260 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 3: That is incredible. 261 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: Now, the caves, specifically this Austrian cave system, was apparently 262 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: excavated during the nineteenth century because the soil found inside 263 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: of these caves is rich, was rich in bones and 264 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: bear manure, that it accumulated over these vast periods of time, 265 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: and they proved usable as phosphate fertilizer, and there was 266 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: a shortage during this time period. Storal rites that sixty 267 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: trains with fifty cars each were filled with the stuff, 268 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: and also points out that a cave near vell Berg, Germany, 269 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: was also excavated for its cave bear riches during this 270 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: time period. Now, these aren't the only two European caves 271 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: that there's evidence of a lot of cave bear activity. 272 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: I read in passing examples of caves and for instance 273 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: Spain and Romania that also provided a great deal of 274 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: cave bear remains. Now speaking to their death in these caves, 275 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: because you know, it's one thing to sleep in the cave, 276 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: and there is evidence we'll get to that in a second. 277 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: There is evidence already of like the bears having lived 278 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: in and slept in the caves, but they also died there. 279 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: And I've read that it's thought that bears may have 280 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: frequently died during hibernation, especially during particularly trying time periods, 281 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: which we'll get to here, because if an individual couldn't 282 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: put on enough weight heading into winter and or environmental 283 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: conditions were particularly dire, they just might not emerge again 284 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: in the spring. Plus we already mentioned that in some 285 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: cases you might have predators venturing into those caves to 286 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: try and find an easy bear to pick off. And 287 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: it's any easy mathematics to imagine, like, Okay, if you 288 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: have a weakened bear in a hibernation state, one that 289 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: might not be surviving the winter anyway, like that's ideal 290 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: biomass to pick off. Now. I think everyone's familiar enough 291 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: with the fat bear week craze these days to know, yeah, 292 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: that bears have to pack it on, and we find 293 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: some sport and amusement in figuring out like which bears 294 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: are packing on the most and what do extant bears 295 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: eat in order to go into hibernation? Well, the answer 296 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: is what do you got? They're omnivores. Anything is on 297 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: the table, right. Yeah. 298 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 3: I think a lot of the ones that we're familiar 299 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 3: with are these ones photographed in Alaska. From what I understand, 300 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 3: they're probably going to be eating a lot of like 301 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 3: river fish, like salmon. 302 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. The cave bears, though, this would have been 303 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 1: a different matter. So research has differed at different times 304 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: on whether the bears were strictly herbivores, or if they 305 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: were mostly herbivores, at the very least, they seem to 306 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: have depended far more on the consumption of plant matter 307 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: than pretty much any extant bear, with the obvious exception 308 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: of the giant panda. These cave bears would have gone 309 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: out and eaten a lot of vegetation, and we see 310 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:28,239 Speaker 1: that reflected in like they're just their anatomy. So I 311 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:33,360 Speaker 1: was looking at the work of Alejandro Perez Ramos at 312 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: the University of Malaga in Spain. This would have been 313 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: a twenty twenty study. The researcher here points out that 314 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: the cave bears were built in such a way. Their 315 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 1: skulls were built in such a way that they could 316 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 1: only chew with their back teeth. So extant bears, the 317 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 1: bears we have today, can chew with the front as 318 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: well as the back, and therefore have the correct dental 319 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: build to eat vegetation or meat, switching back and forth 320 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: between the two depending on what's available. You know, so 321 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 1: if there are a lot of fish on hand, bam 322 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: the bear. You know, bears like grizzlies and so forth, 323 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:11,640 Speaker 1: they're good to go. Get in there and eat that meat. 324 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: Dead whale. Likewise, get in there, scavenge some of that meat. 325 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: Oh what's this? You only have berries? Or oh, somebody 326 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: left the door open to their house. You know, they 327 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 1: can make do with what's available. But again not the 328 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: case with cave bears. A chemical analysis of cave bear 329 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: bones has also revealed a mostly plant based diet. So 330 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 1: the cave bear had evolved to a point at which 331 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: there was no going back in a swift manner anyway, 332 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 1: such as the demands brought on by sudden changes in climate, 333 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: and this would seem to be a major factor in 334 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,360 Speaker 1: their extinction, if not the major factor in their extinction, 335 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,199 Speaker 1: And this seems to be the answer that most of 336 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: the current research is pointing to. But it also reveals 337 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 1: some other interesting things about them. You know, the build 338 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,360 Speaker 1: of their skull here, because they also had much larger 339 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: sinuses in exchange for that lack of robust front teeth. 340 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:11,120 Speaker 1: And this is interesting, especially because extant bears are already 341 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: famous super smellers. I think if you've ever ventured into 342 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 1: bear territory, you have been warned. You know, don't leave say, 343 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 1: chapstick in your car, because a bear can smell that 344 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: and a bear will want to come see what kind 345 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 1: of sweet, delicious fruity food you have hidden away inside 346 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 1: of your automobile. 347 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 3: Oh, I just imagining the bears going wild over like 348 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 3: the synthetic kinds of fruity flavors that you get in 349 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 3: all these products, Like what is fun bearry? I must 350 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 3: discover exactly. 351 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this is again with something we've touched 352 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: on already in this series. You know, like how difficult 353 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 1: or impossible it is for human beings to really put 354 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 1: themselves in the sense world of another organism that has, 355 00:19:55,800 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 1: you know, a sense array different from our own. And 356 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: smell is another one of those areas. So take, for instance, 357 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: a bloodhound, a canine. Canines in general, but specifically something 358 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: like a bloodhound is already pretty famous for being a 359 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: super smeller. That is just dogs in general, like their 360 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 1: sense of smell is just a different part of their being. 361 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: You know. You see that when you see a dog 362 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 1: like riding around with its human in a vehicle and 363 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 1: it has its head out the window, right, It's like 364 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: it's like all the psychedelics at that moment. And yet 365 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: I've seen it estimated that a bear and again not 366 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: a cave bear just bears in general, bears we have today. 367 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: I've read that their sense of smell is seven times 368 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: better than a bloodhound, and that would mean that their 369 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,679 Speaker 1: sense of smell is thousands of times more powerful than 370 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: a human beings. And yet the cave bear likely had 371 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: an even keener sense of smell, if we can even 372 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: imagine such a thing. Likely great hearing as well, but 373 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: on the other hand, reduced eye sight and a smaller 374 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: brain that than you might expect with such a large head. 375 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: And I'm suspecting here that you know that would also 376 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: have to do with its mode of life at this 377 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: point in its evolution, like it's just going around eating 378 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 1: as much vegetation as it can, sifting through these various 379 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: sources of vegetation, but maybe not having to be as 380 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:27,719 Speaker 1: clever and opportunistic as a true omnivore would be. But anyway, 381 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: all this would seem to be wound up in their 382 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: extinction as well, because somewhere around twenty four thousand years ago, 383 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: around the time when their age ended, the age of 384 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: the cave beer comes to an end, temperatures plummeted. This 385 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 1: would have been the last glacial maximum period cooler tempts 386 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 1: meant less time and less plant matter to bulk up 387 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: on before going into hibernation, so the cave bears likely 388 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 1: couldn't keep up. They couldn't bulk up, and again could 389 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: not adjust their diet like other bear species. The bear 390 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: species that survived these cold times were the ones that 391 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: could diversify, that could go in more on the meat 392 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: perhaps than they had been And in many cases, yeah, 393 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 1: this would mean that you would have cave bears crawling 394 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: into their caves to hibernate with or without young and 395 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 1: simply never getting back up again. I alluded to this earlier, 396 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: but yeah, in the caves that they called home, we 397 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: do have more than just their bones to speak of them. 398 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 1: So they, like a lot of animals, they ended up 399 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,199 Speaker 1: leaving claw marks on the walls in some cases, and 400 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:35,239 Speaker 1: they also dug shallow depressions in the floor, likely as 401 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: places to sleep, and you can find images of these 402 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: from various European cave systems. You know, they're not especially flashy, 403 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: but it's this sort of large bear shaped indention in 404 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: the ground. And yeah, many of these remained to this day, 405 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: and some of those claw marks, by the way, would 406 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: later be incorporated into the cave art of Homo sapiens. 407 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 3: Oh interesting, Like you mean, like that human made their 408 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 3: art around pre existing claw marks in the walls and 409 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 3: made that part of the art. 410 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Like I believe that's the case with some 411 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:12,880 Speaker 1: of the art in France's Chauvet caves, where you have 412 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 1: depictions of cave bears, but also evidence of cave bears, 413 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 1: including claw marks. Now speaking of humans there, of course, 414 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: there's long been some mystery over exactly what sort of 415 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: relationships Theanderthals and Homo sapiens had with the cave bears. 416 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 1: I mean, we're humans. We can't help it. We find 417 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: out that we were alive at all during the same 418 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: time period, We're like, what about us? How do we 419 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: factor into this fascinating and majestic scenario? What were we doing? 420 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 1: And did we ride them? Did we ride them? Did 421 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,159 Speaker 1: we worship them? Yeah? There was this much popularized idea 422 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: that early humans worshiped cave bears, and it does seem 423 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,959 Speaker 1: like there's some potential evidence for this, but apparently this 424 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: has long been disputed and sort of largely pushed out 425 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,360 Speaker 1: of the way. This would have been the basis for 426 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: fictional works like the novel clan of the Cave Bear. 427 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 1: But there's still various mysteries along these lines. You know, 428 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: they will never know one d percent what our ancient 429 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 1: ancient ancestors really thought about these creatures. And it's also 430 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: easy to simplify what we thought about them that like, oh, 431 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: did we worship them? Or did we eat them? Or 432 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: did we run from them? And of course, you know, 433 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: even our prehistoric ancestors I think would have had the 434 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: mental complexity to do all three, depending on where you 435 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 1: are in a given day and so forth, I. 436 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 3: Seem to I think it's been years now, but I 437 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 3: have a memory of coming across some interesting claims on 438 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 3: the internet about about, like, you know, prehistoric humans and 439 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 3: their specific beliefs regarding bears, And I was like, what's 440 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 3: the source of this, Like what's the evidence for it? 441 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 3: And I could never actually track it down, Like it 442 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 3: seems like there's just a lot of claims floating around 443 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 3: on the internet about about prehistoric humans and bears. 444 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I guess I one level, Well, it's 445 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: like we do acknowledge the fact that human ancient humans 446 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: and prestark humans, they acknowledged these large creatures in their 447 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: natural world. Yeah, they had relationships with various creatures in 448 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: their natural world, and they seem to have superstitious and 449 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: or mythological ideas about them. We talked about some of 450 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: the earliest images and past episodes of the show where 451 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 1: these people would combine human and animal imagery into a 452 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 1: single entity. Though exactly what is meant by that, we're 453 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 1: not sure. 454 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, this actually came up in a listener mail I 455 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 3: did while you were out recently. A listener wrote in 456 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 3: about our episode on the loewenmine, you know this carving 457 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,439 Speaker 3: that has been interpreted as depicting a sort of a 458 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 3: human body with the lion's head, though there's some dispute 459 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 3: about whether that's the correct interpretation of what it's supposed 460 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 3: to be, but that seems like a common interpretation, and 461 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,880 Speaker 3: so yeah, this raised these interesting questions about like when 462 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 3: did we start forming ideas about creatures that did not 463 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 3: exist in nature. 464 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is hard for us to figure out the 465 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: exact artistic content. For example, going back to the Chouve 466 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: Cave in France, this is a cave that contains human 467 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: illustrations of cave bears among other animals, copious amounts of 468 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 1: cave bear bones, cave bear claw marks on the walls, 469 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: it has floor depressions made by the bears. But one 470 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 1: chamber here also apparently has a single cave bear skull 471 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,360 Speaker 1: that seemed to have been placed on a stone slab 472 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 1: in the center of the chamber. But it's impossible to 473 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,679 Speaker 1: say why this is the case, like were they worshiping 474 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: the bear or a particular bear, was it just a curiosity, 475 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: was it some form of superstition or what did it 476 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: represent some like tangible connection between these people and their 477 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: way of life to the bear or was it something 478 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: more abstract. Now apparently we do know from some skeletal 479 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: evidence this would be in rare cases some evidence of butchery. 480 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 1: And also there may have been another example that was 481 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,439 Speaker 1: more directly tied to some sort of like hunting weapon, 482 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: but at least butchery evidence that shows that humans at 483 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: least sometimes hunted or killed or at least butchered cave bears, 484 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: but is pointed out in Andrew Curry's twenty ten Fate 485 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: of the Cave Bear article ver Smithsonian dot Com, citing 486 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: anthropologist Eric Trinkhaus, it's unlikely that human hunting impacted the 487 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 1: cave bear's existence or led to its extinction. Trenkiles points 488 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: out faced many Illethal threats during this time, and the 489 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,880 Speaker 1: cave bear, if provoked, was certainly one of them. I mean, 490 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: just because it doesn't really eat meat doesn't mean that 491 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: an animal this big and this ferocious could not kill you. 492 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: So it's unlikely, according to this expert, that humans tangled 493 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,360 Speaker 1: with it all that much. But they might have sometimes 494 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 1: gone after hibernating bears or hunted them in other isolated 495 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,640 Speaker 1: events for one reason or another. So it happened, but 496 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 1: probably not all that often. Still there's again there's a 497 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 1: lot of room for some level of supernatural consideration of 498 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: the cave bear. Going back to the work of a 499 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: wolf Storrel in his book, he writes that Shirley quote, 500 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: any animal that can go in and out of the 501 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 1: womb of the Great Goddess without incident is surely also 502 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:32,199 Speaker 1: a guardian of fertility and birth. Again, he's predominantly an 503 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: anthropologist and athnobotanist. So this is the book in its entirety, 504 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: is more about how we have thought about bears throughout history, 505 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: even getting into at least short entries on ewoks and 506 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: Fozzy Bear later on. But particularly he points to other 507 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: traditions along these lines of a female bear shaman character 508 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: a lady of the caves, and also reflects on up 509 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: to traditions of the ancient Greek god is Artemis, whose 510 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: domain includes both the hunt and childbirth and is also 511 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 1: associated with bears. M interesting, but of course we just 512 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: get increasing way into the domain of speculation in this. Yeah. Again, 513 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: I think most experts kind of dismissed the notion that 514 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 1: that that early Homo sapiens worshiped the cave bear to 515 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 1: any significant degree. 516 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 3: By dismissed, I assume you mean not that they rule 517 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 3: it out, but they just say, we don't have super 518 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 3: strong evidence. 519 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's the That's that's what I get from it, 520 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: because I think it would be silly to say, you know, 521 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,479 Speaker 1: our ancestors didn't notice these things at all, or they 522 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: didn't care about like it seems like there's there's room 523 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: for there to be that connection. But do we have 524 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: the evidence of it. 525 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just one of those mysteries. There's a lot 526 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 3: about the culture of prehistoric humans that's difficult to know 527 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:51,959 Speaker 3: based on the evidence we have. 528 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, real quick in passing before we move on to 529 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: more important matters, I will say that Storrel has one entry, 530 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: actually a whole page in the book on gummy bears, 531 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: also apparently known as dancing bears, which apparently have Germanic 532 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 1: origins going back to nineteen twenty two and are quote 533 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 1: now part of the German way of life. Okay, he 534 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: doesn't get into this issue in this twenty eighteen book, 535 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: but I wonder what he would make of the increasing 536 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: use of bear shaped gummies as a delivery system for 537 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: CBD and cannabis and cannabis related products. And even before this, 538 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: I think, going back in the nineties, they were being 539 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: used in some cases to deliver vitamins, and today you 540 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: can get all manner of supplements in them. So like 541 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: the dancing bear kind of becomes this shumnistic item. Perhaps 542 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 1: once more you know that's funny, but no real connection 543 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: to the cave bear there. 544 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 3: Sorry, What would you make also about the equivalency of 545 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 3: worms there, and the fact that the gummy worms are 546 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 3: typically larger than the bears. That suggests something about Shai 547 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 3: lude to me. 548 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: Ah, yes, solid point. For some reason, I've gotten to 549 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 1: the point where I accept a bear shaped gummy is 550 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: an appropriate shape for some sort of chemical delivery system 551 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: as opposed to some of the other shape Like for 552 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: some reason, a worm is too silly for me, Like 553 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: it just seems like, why, what what are you doing? 554 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: It's ridiculous. Responsible kids eat candy worms, but bears, bears? 555 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 1: I don't know, Like are we at the point where 556 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: I just you know, we don't. I guess we don't 557 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: go through a lot of gummy bears. But it just 558 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: it's just like I would be suspicious of a gummy bear. 559 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: I would be like, be careful, you don't know what's 560 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: in that bear. But a pure gummy worm, you're saying 561 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: you're more likely to trust that, I guess, But now 562 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: I'm second guessing myself. I don't know. I'm just suspicious 563 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: of the whole gummy genre. 564 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 3: Okay, well, I've got one more thing I want to 565 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 3: talk about. So we've discussed the ways that animals adapt 566 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 3: to cave environments, but I wanted to talk about a 567 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 3: fascinating idea I came across in a spielology paper, which is, 568 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 3: what if some of the natural holes and recessions in 569 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 3: rock that we call caves were actually formed in part 570 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 3: not by standard inorganic processes like you know, lava tube 571 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 3: solidification in volcanic rock or the dissolution of limestone by 572 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 3: water instead were formed in part by animals essentially eating 573 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 3: their way through the rock. Let's look at a paper, 574 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 3: So my source here is by Charles A. Lundquist and 575 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 3: William W. Varnado Junior, called Salt Ingestion Caves, published in 576 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 3: the International Journal of Spielology in the year two thousand 577 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 3: and six. So the authors kick things off by pointing 578 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 3: out that, of course animals need salt to survive. It 579 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 3: is a basic requirement in the body. Regular table salt 580 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 3: is known chemically as sodium chloride, and when we ingest it, 581 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 3: our bodies use both the sodium ions and the chloride 582 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 3: ions from that molecule for a number of functions. Salt 583 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 3: is necessary for our muscles to function properly, like we 584 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 3: need sodium so muscles can contract and relax. It's used 585 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 3: in our nervous systems to conduct impulses. It's used for 586 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 3: all kinds of things throughout the body, and most humans 587 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 3: get way more of it than we need because we 588 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 3: add supplemental salt to our food for taste. But of 589 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 3: course wild animals don't have the kind of ready access 590 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 3: to supplemental salt that we do in the wild. Carnivores 591 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 3: can usually get the salt they need by eating the 592 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 3: flesh of other animals, which naturally contains a good bit 593 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 3: of it, but for herbivores getting enough salt can be difficult. 594 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 3: The sodium content of most terrestrial plants is quite low, 595 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 3: and since ancient times, humans have noticed that animals, especially herbivores, 596 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 3: sometimes gather at what are called salt licks, or more broadly, 597 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 3: mineral licks, places where there are rocks or soils that 598 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:12,280 Speaker 3: animals can consume in some way to supplement the mineral 599 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 3: content of their diet, including minerals such as sodium salt. 600 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 3: This can include a range of behaviors in the wild, 601 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 3: like licking salty rocks on a mountainside, eating exposed clays 602 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 3: or other sediments that have a desirable mineral content. And 603 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 3: because herbivores are drawn to these salty rocks and soils, 604 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 3: hunters have long known about them as good places to 605 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 3: find game. So what does this have to do with caves? Well, 606 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 3: the author's rite quote large vertebrate herbivores, when they find 607 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,760 Speaker 3: a salt bearing layer of rock in a cliff face, 608 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 3: can over generations produce sizeable voids where they have removed 609 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 3: and consumed salty rock. These cavities that humans can enter 610 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 3: can have the characteristics of a cave as defined locally. 611 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 3: So that last sentence meaning that, you know, whatever people 612 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 3: call a cave, You know that varies from place to place, 613 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 3: but usually it means like a void in the rock 614 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 3: that's large enough for a person to go into to enter. 615 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,479 Speaker 3: And those types of voids can indeed be created by 616 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 3: animals removing the rock by eating it. 617 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: Wow, So you're saying that in some cases a cave 618 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 1: is naturally formed over geologic time by rain, water and 619 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 1: so forth. Other times a deer just licks it until 620 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 1: it's right a deer licked it into the side of 621 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 1: a mountain. 622 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 3: That appears to be the case, according to these authors. 623 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 3: So they look at several case studies in the paper. 624 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,879 Speaker 3: One is a site referenced in some literature about the 625 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 3: Altai Mountains in Asia. The authors are talking about reports 626 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 3: from surveys of the Altai Mountains, specifically of a mountain 627 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 3: bearing shale formations near the confluence of the Kan River 628 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:02,800 Speaker 3: and the Charch River. Apparently, the shale here is very salty, 629 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 3: and they quote a commentary by an author named Carl 630 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 3: Friedrich von Eltibor from eighteen twenty six, who writes of 631 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 3: the shale quote, all livestock of the Kalmuks find this rock, 632 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:19,799 Speaker 3: which gives the mountain an ash gray appearance, very desirable, 633 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,359 Speaker 3: and consume it in not small amounts, so that one 634 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 3: not infrequently finds grottos built in this way. Of course, 635 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 3: a grotto refers to a small cave, and this author 636 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 3: mentions that both domestic and wild animals come to this 637 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 3: mountain to eat the shale. Another example they mention is 638 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,760 Speaker 3: a place in the United States. It's called rock House Cave. 639 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 3: It's a cave situated within the rock of a small 640 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 3: bluff in the US state of Mississippi. They say that 641 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:51,759 Speaker 3: the entrance is roughly ten feet wide, but then the 642 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 3: cave actually widens once you go inside. It roughly doubles 643 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,280 Speaker 3: in width. It's just about tall enough for an adult 644 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 3: to stand up, and it reaches about fifteen feet deep 645 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 3: into the bluff. And they say the surrounding rock is 646 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 3: mostly what the authors characterize as a soft, fine grained sandstone. 647 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 3: They say it is of the Kataboulah formation, and it's 648 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 3: got a significant amount of sodium chloride in it. The 649 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,360 Speaker 3: authors also say there's no evidence that water solution caused 650 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 3: the formation of this cave, and instead it appears that 651 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 3: it was caused by many generations of animals removing the 652 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 3: walls by licking. They say there is a rough surface 653 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,759 Speaker 3: on the walls that seems to quite possibly have been 654 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,839 Speaker 3: created just by animals licking it away over time. They 655 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,760 Speaker 3: say it was probably first wild deer and possibly bison 656 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,840 Speaker 3: that opened this cave up, and then maybe cattle later. 657 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:44,800 Speaker 1: Oh wow. 658 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,879 Speaker 3: But the most amazing example they cite is one from 659 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 3: eastern Africa. This so, there's an extinct volcano on the 660 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:59,280 Speaker 3: border between Kenya and Uganda. This volcano is called Mount 661 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,280 Speaker 3: elgon or Elgonyi, and on the side of this mountain 662 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:08,360 Speaker 3: there are what I've read described elsewhere as ballroom sized caves, 663 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,799 Speaker 3: large sizable caves that appear to have been at least 664 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 3: in part excavated by elephants. Elephants inside caves, Yes, yes, 665 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 3: so there there is some question about the role of 666 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 3: the elephants in creating the caves, but there is no 667 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,240 Speaker 3: question that the cave that the elephants do go into 668 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 3: the caves and consume rocks that has been directly observed. 669 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 3: That's the thing that happens. So the most famous of 670 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 3: the Mount Elgon caves is known as Katoomb Cave k 671 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,480 Speaker 3: t u M and the authors propose that these caves 672 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,400 Speaker 3: were formed in part by water solution, but also in 673 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 3: part because wild herbivores literally eat the rocks away and 674 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:51,920 Speaker 3: remove them from the caverns. 675 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:54,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is this is amazing. I have I've actually 676 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,319 Speaker 1: seen footage of this. I don't remember which elephant documentary 677 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 1: I saw this in Problem maybe More and One watched 678 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 1: a lot of elephant documentaries at one point, and my 679 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: son's upbringing when he was super into elephants. But it's 680 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 1: it is amazing to behold. And these are large caves, 681 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,359 Speaker 1: you know, starters elephants have to fit in them. But yeah, 682 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 1: I think ballroom seems appropriate based on the footage as 683 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 1: I remember it, because these look like the kind of 684 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:24,320 Speaker 1: caverns that you might have filmed like a B movie 685 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,279 Speaker 1: in or perhaps an episode of Star Trek took place in. Yeah, yeah, 686 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: I can see that. 687 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 3: Now elephants are not the only animals that go into 688 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,239 Speaker 3: these caves to eat the to like consume parts of 689 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 3: the walls and eat the rocks. Apparently, also buffaloes, antelopes, 690 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,400 Speaker 3: and sometimes monkeys have been observed to go into the 691 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 3: caves and eat some of the some of the soft 692 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 3: rocks that line the walls. The authors say specifically Katoomb 693 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 3: Cave to give you a better idea about the size 694 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 3: of one of the big caves. Here, they say that 695 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 3: the rock face that the elephants generally go to to 696 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,280 Speaker 3: get to get their minerals from is about one hundred 697 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,239 Speaker 3: and sixty meters into the mountain from the entrance, so 698 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,840 Speaker 3: that's a deep cave. And they say that what happens 699 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 3: is the elephants go in and they usually loosen pieces 700 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,360 Speaker 3: of rock from the walls of the cave with their tusks, 701 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,320 Speaker 3: so they're like digging against the walls with their tusks. 702 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:20,959 Speaker 3: These pieces fall to the floor, and then they pick 703 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:23,919 Speaker 3: up the pieces with their trunks, and then they put 704 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,440 Speaker 3: the piece in their mouth and chew it up crush 705 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,760 Speaker 3: it with their teeth. Now, what was not fully resolved 706 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:31,239 Speaker 3: at the time of this paper, and from what I 707 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 3: can tell, has still not been fully resolved, is what 708 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 3: are the relative contributions of the different processes to how 709 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:44,840 Speaker 3: large the caves are like, are the caves predominantly formed 710 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:49,399 Speaker 3: by inorganic solution and erosion of the rock by water 711 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 3: flow and then supplemented is that excavation supplemented by elephants 712 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,359 Speaker 3: and other animals removing some amount of rock? Or are 713 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 3: the elephants and other animals primarily respectible for hollowing out 714 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,759 Speaker 3: the caves and there's just some solution by water going on? 715 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 3: Also what role may have been played by like human 716 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 3: mining and other factors. So the authors look at several 717 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:16,680 Speaker 3: analyzes of this, and they quote one researcher named Ian 718 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 3: Redmond who did a study of the cave in nineteen 719 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:24,760 Speaker 3: eighty four. Redmond did several months of field observations, watching 720 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 3: the elephants and analyzing even the mineral content of their droppings. 721 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 3: Redmond wrote, quote, the volume of Katumb cave is on 722 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 3: the order of one point three million gallons or about 723 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 3: five million liders. If for the sake of conservative argument, 724 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:44,960 Speaker 3: we suppose that elephant excavations averaged just one quart per week, 725 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 3: it would have taken only one hundred thousand years for 726 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:52,479 Speaker 3: them to dig Katum. The theory of elephants, spieleogenesis cave 727 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:58,080 Speaker 3: creation is entirely plausible. Wow, yeah, amazing to consider. The 728 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 3: authors also they cite another study, this one by researchers 729 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,440 Speaker 3: named Donald McFarlane and Joyce Lundberg. This was from two 730 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:10,880 Speaker 3: thousand and four where after field observations, these researchers suggested 731 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:15,279 Speaker 3: a multi step process for cave formation that would go 732 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 3: like this. They summarize it as follows. So, first of all, 733 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 3: there is a cliff that forms. There's like water flowing 734 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,439 Speaker 3: off of the mountain they say, off of a cap 735 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 3: rock layer, and it erodes some material from underneath. Then 736 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,400 Speaker 3: after that they say that some more material clay sized 737 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:38,640 Speaker 3: material sediment is removed from the floor of the cave 738 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 3: by groundwater sapping. And then they also say more mass 739 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,760 Speaker 3: is removed from the cave by animal excavation. And then 740 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 3: at some point there are collapses within the cave. They write, 741 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 3: quote collapse of overlying beds makes piles of broken material 742 00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 3: which are removed by action of water and animal geoff 743 00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:05,480 Speaker 3: rock eating. And then finally they say step four is repeat. 744 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,560 Speaker 3: This whole process repeats over and over again. So they're 745 00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:12,680 Speaker 3: saying that it's a combination of material being removed by 746 00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:17,000 Speaker 3: water flow and then the cavern collapsing as material is 747 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 3: removed and supporting walls are removed, and then animals also 748 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 3: remove parts of the walls and remove some of the 749 00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,799 Speaker 3: collapsed material from above, and it just keeps going on. 750 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,480 Speaker 1: Like that because those animals, they don't care about the 751 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,440 Speaker 1: structural integrity of the cave. They just want to get 752 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:36,759 Speaker 1: that salt right. It's all they want is they're fix now. 753 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,759 Speaker 3: Ultimately, the authors of this analysis, McFarlane and Lundberg, were 754 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:45,160 Speaker 3: unable to say what the relative masses of rock removed 755 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:48,440 Speaker 3: by water versus geophagi were, but they seem to believe 756 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,680 Speaker 3: that the amount removed by the animals was significant. And 757 00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:54,600 Speaker 3: then coming back to the parent paper, the one by 758 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:58,840 Speaker 3: Lundquist and Varnido Junior, they bring up something that was 759 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,880 Speaker 3: interesting when thought about. When I was thinking about it, 760 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,359 Speaker 3: in parallel to our discussion of batguana, is a kind 761 00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,080 Speaker 3: of alternative sunlight or base of the food chain in 762 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:12,280 Speaker 3: deeper limestone caves. Speaking of the Mount Elgun caves, the 763 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:16,080 Speaker 3: authors here note that quote a common feature in most 764 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:19,520 Speaker 3: of the larger caves is the quantity of dung deposited 765 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:22,399 Speaker 3: by beasts which have come to the caves from time 766 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:27,040 Speaker 3: immemorial to lick or otherwise consume the agglomerate walls. Traces 767 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,919 Speaker 3: of elephants using the caves are most common, and their 768 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:34,000 Speaker 3: tusk marks are clearly recognizable where they have gouged the rock. 769 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 3: So actually a couple interesting parallels there, the connection to 770 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:42,279 Speaker 3: the seeing where the elephants with their tusks have like 771 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,120 Speaker 3: cut gashes in the rock in the walls of the caves, 772 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:48,160 Speaker 3: kind of like the marks on the cave walls left 773 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,080 Speaker 3: by the cave bears. But also all the poop, all 774 00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,360 Speaker 3: the poop of all the visitors accumulating over the thousands 775 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:54,840 Speaker 3: of years. 776 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy, and you know all this also reminds 777 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:03,680 Speaker 1: me of episode we did a while back on giant sloths, 778 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:08,040 Speaker 1: a particular variety of giant sloth that would have dug 779 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:13,080 Speaker 1: itself kind of a burrow into a like deep into burrow, 780 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,440 Speaker 1: creating eventually over time as they reuse these spaces a 781 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:17,840 Speaker 1: kind of tunnel in the earth. 782 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,120 Speaker 3: Funny you should mention that because the fourth case study 783 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,480 Speaker 3: that the authors bring up in this paper is evidence 784 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,880 Speaker 3: related to what's called Mylodon Cave in Patagonia in Chile. 785 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:31,960 Speaker 3: They say that it is possible that this is a 786 00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:36,560 Speaker 3: case of cave formation by salt ingestion long ago, this 787 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:41,239 Speaker 3: time implicating extinct giant ground sloths. This is fully speculative, 788 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,439 Speaker 3: but they do highlight this as a possibility, explaining where 789 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:45,399 Speaker 3: this cave came from. 790 00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:46,360 Speaker 1: Wow. 791 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,600 Speaker 3: But to come back and conclude the look at the 792 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,680 Speaker 3: Mount Elgon caves. So they say, what we do know 793 00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 3: is that animals come to these caves to consume mineral 794 00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:58,680 Speaker 3: laden soil and rocks, so these caves could be thought 795 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,759 Speaker 3: of as massive salt licks or mineral licks. There are 796 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,520 Speaker 3: generally no permanent streams running out of the caves, so 797 00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,760 Speaker 3: that that's not an option for removal of cave material 798 00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:15,880 Speaker 3: by like permanent water passage. Some water does appear to 799 00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,480 Speaker 3: run out of the caves during flooding events, but how 800 00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,759 Speaker 3: much rock material is removed during these events in this 801 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,840 Speaker 3: way is uncertain, so we still in the end don't 802 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,759 Speaker 3: know the relative amounts. We don't know how much of 803 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:34,239 Speaker 3: the cave formation is due to water solution versus how 804 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,399 Speaker 3: much is due to animals eating the rock. But they 805 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:41,520 Speaker 3: think that both processes contribute, and their judgment in the 806 00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:45,160 Speaker 3: end is that the contribution of the elephants is the 807 00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:46,640 Speaker 3: primary process. 808 00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:47,440 Speaker 1: Wow. 809 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,080 Speaker 3: Either way, it's amazing to imagine elephants going into caves 810 00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:52,239 Speaker 3: to eat the rocks. 811 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing. And you know, we shouldn't cast too 812 00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:59,000 Speaker 1: much judgment. Like you mentioned earlier, humans very often don't 813 00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,120 Speaker 1: have to worry about getting enough salt we eat at 814 00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:07,680 Speaker 1: a restaurant. Once we get like a colossal salt bomb, right, 815 00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:09,560 Speaker 1: we get we get more than enough salt. We get 816 00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:14,480 Speaker 1: an unhealthy amount of salt ingested into our bodies. But 817 00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:18,160 Speaker 1: if we didn't have those food sources, we might be 818 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:20,359 Speaker 1: out there looking the sides of mountains just like these 819 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:25,120 Speaker 1: various herbivores are. Assuming we also didn't eat copious amounts 820 00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:29,080 Speaker 1: of meat on top of that, which is another factor 821 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:29,919 Speaker 1: to consider here. 822 00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:33,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, well does that do it for this 823 00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,480 Speaker 3: exploration of caves. I'm sure we'll be back in the future. 824 00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:38,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's all I mean, we've we've covered caves in 825 00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:40,839 Speaker 1: the past. Yeah, we'll be back in the future. And 826 00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:44,440 Speaker 1: there are a number of fascinating cave organisms that we 827 00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:47,840 Speaker 1: didn't cover in these episodes. And if you have favorites 828 00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:49,600 Speaker 1: right in, we'd love to hear from you, because we 829 00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,279 Speaker 1: could always venture back into the caves. You know, we 830 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:54,480 Speaker 1: don't reside there all the time, but we we go 831 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:58,120 Speaker 1: in from time to time in order to discuss something interesting. 832 00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,279 Speaker 1: All right, as as usual, we'll just remind you that 833 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:03,120 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and 834 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,680 Speaker 1: culture podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, listener 835 00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:10,680 Speaker 1: mail on Mondays, short form episode on Wednesdays, and on Fridays. 836 00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:12,880 Speaker 1: We set aside most serious concerns. Just talk about a 837 00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:17,960 Speaker 1: weird film on weird House cinema. 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You can go there and you can 854 00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:05,120 Speaker 1: discuss episodes of the show with other listeners. 855 00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:09,320 Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 856 00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:11,279 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 857 00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:13,800 Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 858 00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:15,759 Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 859 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,600 Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 860 00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:26,920 Speaker 3: your Mind dot com. 861 00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:30,400 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 862 00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,279 Speaker 2: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 863 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:50,720 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.