1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,800 Speaker 1: By my Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: production of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to 3 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,240 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm 4 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: Joe McCormick. And it won't be the first time that 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: Halloween themed content is spilling over into November. That we've 6 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: got a really good excuse this time, which is uh 7 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: and I didn't know this before before. Before we started recording. Today, 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 1: our producer Seth was telling us that apparently quite a 9 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: few Simpson's Treehouse of Horror episodes have had to air 10 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: after Halloween because they've been preempted by baseball or something. Yeah, 11 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: I mean, and of course, you know, we can always 12 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: drive on the fact that not all scary movies come 13 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 1: out during the month of October, and many come out 14 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: throughout the rest of the year, and ultimately, on this show, 15 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: it's you know, it's kind of Halloween year round. Um. Though, 16 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: I guess the tragedy is that some times we put 17 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: off content we're like, oh, this will be perfect for Halloween, 18 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: let's save this for October, and then we make it 19 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: through October and we're like, ah, didn't actually fit that 20 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 1: one in this year? Maybe this will happen next October. 21 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: But hey, we're keeping another tradition alive right now because 22 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: this is going to be the Is this the seventh 23 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: anthology episode we've done for October? I think it is. 24 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: I think this is number seven. Um, that doesn't mean 25 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: we've been doing it seven years, because some years we've 26 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: put out more than one volume. But basically the idea 27 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: here is these kind of spinoff of some old creepy 28 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: post episodes that we did back in the day, where 29 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: we look to the world of horror anthology films and 30 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 1: especially TV shows, we pick something out of the basket 31 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: and we we sort of use it as an excuse 32 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: to talk about something something you know, science, e or um, 33 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: you know, cultural, basically, some sort of sort of topic 34 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: that that in many cases might not make for a 35 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: full episode of stuff to blew your mind on a zone, 36 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: but the horror anthology episode gives us an excuse to 37 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 1: talk about it, and vice versa, the topic gives us 38 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: an excuse to talk about that particular episode. This is 39 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: especially valuable back in the days before Weird House Cinema, 40 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: when we did not have a weekly outlet for for 41 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: any obsessions with macab vielings. So I guess with Weird House, 42 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: we're always talking about movies and uh and and I 43 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: know specifically what you've got in your heart with these 44 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: anthology episodes is like the nineties Outer Limits revival. Yes, yeah, 45 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: I look forward to talking about about one of those. 46 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 1: I've really been enjoying watching those throughout the pandemic. Um, 47 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: My wife and I have been watching these pretty much 48 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 1: every week remotely with a couple of friends of ours. Actually, uh. 49 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: They host a podcast by the name of Talking Tofu, 50 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: So if you want a like a vegan themed funny podcast, 51 00:02:58,000 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: I recommend that. I don't know if they're gonna talk 52 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: about out or Limits at all in there. Maybe they're 53 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 1: leaving that all for me. But at any rate, I've 54 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: really enjoyed um exploring and re exploring the nineties Outer 55 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: Limits episodes because there's there's some real garbage in there, um, 56 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: but there are some great episodes. And and also just 57 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: about anybody who was doing TV during the nineties seems 58 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: to show up at one point or another, as well 59 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: as a wide variety of Canadian actors. So I to 60 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: think long and hard about which episode to pick here 61 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 1: and ended up going with one from the second season. 62 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 1: This is the sixteenth episode of season two came out 63 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: in and it's titled The d Programmers. Now Rob, I 64 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: ended up having to jump through a lot of digital 65 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: hoops to watch this one, but I'm so glad I did. 66 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: This is a phenomenal pick. Yeah, these uh, these episodes 67 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: were I think there is of this recording. They're in 68 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: kind of a streaming limbo where you can fortunately still 69 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: purchase them digitally, which is not the case for some 70 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: anthology shows like I think Tales from the Crypt is 71 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: still exceedingly hard to get ahold digitally right now because 72 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: of some rights issues, um outer limits. Yeah, if you're gonna, 73 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: if you're gonna just straight up stream them without purchasing them, 74 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: sometimes you have to. You have to find uh unique 75 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: ways of viewing them. But if you look around, you 76 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: can find them. And I believe you can digitally purchase 77 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 1: these episodes still. Uh So The Deep Programmers is out 78 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: there for anyone who who wishes to view it. All right, 79 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 1: give me the scoop on The Deep Programmers, all right, 80 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: So I'm just I'm not gonna give it the full 81 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: weird House treatment obviously, but just to go through the 82 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: people involved, Um, it was directed by Joseph L. Scanlon, 83 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: who lived through longtime TV genre director who worked on 84 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: such shows as as Outer Limits. He did seven episodes 85 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 1: of that, He did four episodes of Star Trek the 86 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: Next Generation, he did an episode of Quantum Leap, and 87 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: seven episodes of Land of the Lost, among many other things. 88 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: The writer on this was James Crocker, TV writer who 89 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: wrote multiple episodes of The Outer Limits as well as 90 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: the early two thousand's Twilight Zone revival which I'm not 91 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: sure I remember that one. He also did uh some 92 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 1: Star Trek Deep Space nine as well as the nineteen 93 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: eighties Twilight Zone Revival and more. But speaking of Trek, 94 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: the most notable casting in this episode is Brent Spiner. Um. Yes, 95 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 1: Data himself plays this uh this reprogrammer that that's introduced 96 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 1: as being kind of like this this um part of 97 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: the like the human Resistance movement. He's there to deprogram 98 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: people who have been brainwashed by the the enemy alien overlords. 99 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 1: And he's a real pleasure in this because you know, 100 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: everybody loves Data. He was great on on Star Trek 101 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: Next Generation and then the you know, the related movies. Um. 102 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: Some people may know him from Independence Day uh seven 103 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: episodes of Night Chord, uh. He pops up in Shocker 104 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: and The Aviator, few episodes of Blunt Talk, various other things, 105 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: A lot of work, but this is one of the 106 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,239 Speaker 1: few play if not the only place I can remember 107 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 1: seeing mean Brent Spiner like, he's he's he's he's rough 108 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: and tumble. He's a bad cop in this, Yeah he is. Uh. 109 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: I actually having never seen tons of Star Trek The 110 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 1: Next Generation, I remember I a few years back. I 111 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: was like, Okay, everybody my age has watched a bunch 112 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: of TNNG, I should like watch, you know, go through it. 113 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: And I started in the first season, and oh it was. 114 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: It was rough going. I am to understand it gets 115 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: better as it goes on, but but I didn't make 116 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: it all that far though. Of course, you know, he 117 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: is there in the first season as data. So when 118 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: I think of Brent Spiner, I think of Dr oakein 119 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: an Independence Day, who you know is a who is 120 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: really one of the biggest rays of sunshine in that movie. 121 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: He plays a uh, I don't even know how. He 122 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: plays a sort of emotionally stunted, sort of childlike scientist 123 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 1: who has apparently been in a bunker for forty years 124 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, yeah, he's um a goofy mad scientists 125 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:56,919 Speaker 1: kind of a character. But wait, who is he in Shocker? 126 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: I've seen Shocker a number of times and I don't 127 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: remember him at all. It's listed on his filmography. I've 128 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: never seen Shocker. I've only heard heard you gush about it. 129 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: You heard me gush? Huh, yeah, I thought you liked it, right, 130 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: you have nice things to say about it. I mean, 131 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: Shocker is very bad, but it's a it's an entertaining bad. 132 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: It's it's ridiculous. All right. Well, we'll speaking of actors 133 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: in this. Uh, just a couple of others of note here. Um. 134 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: Eric Anderson plays Evan Robert Cooper. Uh. This is a 135 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: TV and film actor who played Rob in Friday the Thirteenth. 136 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: The final chapter is that one of the Good Ones? 137 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: Is that one of the are there good ones? That's 138 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: the that's the last one in which Jason is a 139 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: human before he's an undead revenant. So it goes one 140 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: through four he's a human, and then in the fifth 141 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: one it's a copycat killer, and then in the sixth 142 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: one that's when he's a revenant. This is the last 143 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: one before he gets his head cut in half by 144 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: Corey Feldman. Okay, but Rob, the character in this is 145 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: a sort of He's a sort of dashing hero who 146 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: show is up. You know, you think he's going to 147 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: save the day, but I think ultimately Jason just kills 148 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: him in a basement. Alright. Well, the basic pitch the 149 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: plot for this episode of the Outer Outer Limits, uh, 150 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: and in the one of the should drive on. One 151 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: of the great things about these nineties episodes of The 152 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: Outer Limits is that generally they're they're very earnest, they 153 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: really want to say something important about the human condition, 154 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: and that serious tone is often what makes them so delightful, 155 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: because sometimes there are wonderful sci fi ideas explored in them, 156 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: sometimes not so much. Sometimes the attempt is there, but 157 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 1: maybe not the delivery. But it also makes the things 158 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: that don't work that make you know, some of the 159 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: maybe some of the performances they're not that crisp uh, 160 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: it makes them all the more hilarious because they're definitely 161 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: not aiming for comedy. There maybe one or two I 162 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: think that that do kind of aim for something more 163 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: whimsical and fun, and I think some of those are 164 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: the ones that really don't hold up. But for the 165 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: most part, it's it's the seriousness that makes it work. 166 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: Like if it was more self conscious, that would actually 167 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,319 Speaker 1: kind of cheapen it and make it not as fun. Yeah. 168 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: So in this one, it takes place on a future Earth. 169 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: Earth we find out is ruled by alien overlords called 170 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: the Torqure. Uh. They're kind of these repellent, reptilian humanoid 171 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: titans who seem to live solitary lives, like they is 172 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: if they evolve from some sort of solitary predatory species 173 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: instead of something that had some sort of communal system. Yeah, 174 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: they're like eight foot tall alligator men. So they've got 175 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: these reptilian outsides, and they they're very haughty, and they 176 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: just like to sort of lord around their their bathtub 177 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 1: and yell at their their human servants and say, oh, 178 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: why aren't you bringing me my oil faster? Yeah, they're 179 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: kind of like giant reptile Mr. Burns it is. You know, 180 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: they're they're that level of awful um. And I guess 181 00:09:55,920 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: there's probably more than a dash of um Battlefield Earth 182 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: to this as well. Yes, because of course that involved uh, 183 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: super tall alien overlords who you know, have a like 184 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: a brutal rule imposed over Earth. I made that exact note. 185 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: I mean this to be clear. This episode is much 186 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: better than Battlefield Earth. But I got some of those 187 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: notes when I was just reminded of John Travolta in 188 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 1: the movie yelling, I told you to get some man 189 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: animals in here to fix this. Yeah, they look great 190 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: in this. By the way that the Torqure when we 191 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: first encounter them, we don't see their faces. We just 192 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: see their arms. So there's kind of a sense of 193 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: the one Sler in the Lorax uh to it. And 194 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: then later we get to see them more or less 195 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: in full and uh like Like most of these episodes 196 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: of the Outer Limits, whenever there is a creature effect, 197 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: it's practical and very well executed. So anyway, yes, we 198 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: have torquor overlords ruling over everything. Helping them are these 199 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: mentally reconditioned human slaves that are called Joe them. So 200 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: the idea, at least to the getting of the episode, 201 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: is that all of the humans left on Earth after 202 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: it's been conquered by these aliens are brainwashed into being 203 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: subservient to their their new alien masters. Right, and so 204 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: we meet up with our our Joe Lem characters. Our 205 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: main jo Lem character Evan here, and he's working for 206 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: a tor Core overlord named col Tak. And there's this 207 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: scene where they're preparing him his slime bath. They're preparing 208 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: him his saragon oil. The other Joe Lem drops the 209 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: saragon oil and breaks it and so uh this so 210 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: coal Tag is brutally murders him. There's a lot of 211 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: coal Tak complaining that the oil is not arriving fast enough. 212 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: So he's in his slime bath. Bring it to me 213 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: the oil. I need the oil. You Jolum are always 214 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 1: so slow. Yeah, there's a there's a very strong Kangan 215 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: Kodos vibe to their their voices in this. Yes, the 216 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: Kangan Kodos thing was also very strong, And I wonder 217 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 1: what is the timing on that Kangan Kotos? So they 218 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,319 Speaker 1: came out before ninety right, yeah they did? Yeah, yeah, 219 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 1: so they must predate this though then again, I mean 220 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: this is I think the same year as Citizen Kang, 221 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 1: which is maybe the closest analogue. Yeah. My my bed 222 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: is they're both essentially inspired by some of the same 223 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: sci fi precursors, except, of course, the Simpsons took it 224 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: in a intentionally comedic direction, and the Outer Limits took 225 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: it in a serious direction, not realizing how comedic it 226 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: comes off. But it's really amusing in this episode. Yeah, 227 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: it is uncanny how much kol Tax sounds like Kang now. Um. 228 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 1: The next big phase in this is that we find 229 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: out well Evan Uh, first of all, is spared. He's 230 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: not going to die uh and his luck would have it, 231 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: He's about to go off to rejuvenation training because a 232 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 1: good Joe Loman is worth keeping around for a very 233 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 1: long time via life extending a lien technology. So he 234 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: boards a bus to the Bliss Renewal Center. Um. Which 235 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: reminded when I saw this one for this time, it 236 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:07,439 Speaker 1: just instantly made me think of Simpsons and ren education. Yes, um, 237 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 1: sit back and let the hooks do the work exactly um. 238 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: But on the way he is kidnapped by the Human 239 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: Resistance Movement and they attempt to deprogram him to remove 240 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: all of this uh, this this alien brainwashing that has 241 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: turned him into a servant and make him part of 242 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: the resistance movement to take back Earth. And this is 243 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: where we meet Brent Spiner's character, Resistance d programmer Professor 244 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 1: Trent Davis, who is all about stopping a mud hole 245 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 1: in a Joe lom if it busts up that that 246 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 1: old Joe loam conditioning. Yeah, and I guess this is 247 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: playing up on the idea of an aggressive practice of 248 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,559 Speaker 1: d programming UM trying to to say, Okay, this guy 249 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: Evan here, the main character has been has been conditioned, 250 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: or you might say brainwashed by by this alien programming 251 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: that to to sort like make him fear having a 252 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: will of his own. And you and Brent Spiner's ideas, 253 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: you've got to really like make him snap out of 254 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: it with a bunch of kind of brutal and even 255 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: violent tactics, yelling in his face, burning him, cutting him, 256 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,319 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. Now, the twist here, and so 257 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: you know, standard warning if you don't want this spoiled, 258 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: if you want to go out and see this for yourself, 259 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: pause right now and then come back later. But the 260 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: twist is that they put him through this deep programming system. 261 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: It seems to work. He's part of the resistance. Now 262 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: he helps them in an attempt to assassinate UM, his 263 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: former overlord. And then what do we find out at 264 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: the end, We find out, oh, Brent Spiner was a 265 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: Joe loom all along himself. He was. He was not 266 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: part of the human resistance. He was just part of 267 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: a rival torque course plot to take out one of 268 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: his his his rival alien overlords. Right, So what you 269 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: thought was a was a human rebellion against these a 270 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: alien invaders was in fact an intra alien political struggle. Yes, 271 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: which is a nice twist. And one of the interesting 272 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: things about these Outer Limits episodes is they usually have 273 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 1: a twist. So if you watch enough of them, you 274 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: end up spending half the time just trying to guess 275 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: what the twist is going to be. Uh, did you 276 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: guess this one, Joe? Well, I did sort of see 277 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: the twist coming, but only because I knew there was 278 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: gonna be a twist. If I had not known there 279 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: was going to be a twist, I might not have 280 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: There may be episodes where the twist is there's no twist, 281 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: but I can't think of what it would be off hand. 282 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: There's some episodes where the twist occurs super early and 283 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: then it's all about sort of the the the ramifications 284 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: of that twist. But there's a twist in there somewhere. 285 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: They're they're kind of a happy like San Junipero of 286 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: the of the Outer Limits. Um, there might be Uh, 287 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think and nothing's coming to mind. Um. 288 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: The real twist is this is so sweet most of 289 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: the time, you know, because you have the cool narration 290 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: that comes on to the end where the narrator kind 291 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: of drives at home for you. And usually it's something 292 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: like when the humans expand into the stars, they'll deal 293 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: with their greatest enemy themselves. You know, it's always something 294 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: like that, you know. Yeah, this one has some kind 295 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: of pretentious phrases about free will. It was like, at 296 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: what point does a humans free will cease to exist? 297 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: And at that point would we still be human? Questions 298 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: that are are not really exploring in this episode. It's 299 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: not about those questions than the episode we're discussing here. Naturally, 300 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: this all takes place within the context of an extreme 301 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: sci fi scenario. Humans are conditioned to be joe Lems, 302 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: presumably from a very young age, and then this conditioning 303 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: is continually enforced across a lifespan that that might prove 304 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: quite long due to these rejuvenation treatments, and there certainly 305 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: is a human component to the culture that forces this 306 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: worldview on them. But at the helm of all of 307 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: this are these alien masters. Well one thing, though, you 308 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 1: mentioned being conditioned since childhood. In this case, they say 309 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: that the alien invasion was only about two years ago. 310 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah so uh so, really these 311 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: guys haven't been I guess that's the long view is 312 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: that is that they're going to keep him around for 313 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: a while. But Evan has couldn't have been a jolem 314 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: for that long. Uh But still the idea is that 315 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: he's he's largely forgotten his previous life. He's forgotten what 316 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: it was to be a free to human and now 317 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: all he thinks is the joelem way. So um. Again, 318 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: this episode is called the d Programmers, And when the 319 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: term d programming has been used before in the context 320 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: of real world ideologies, were generally talking about a scenario 321 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 1: of an alleged cult or some other group with an 322 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: ideology that's deemed harmful. And I was looking into this 323 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: a bit. The idea emerged pretty much during the nineteen 324 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 1: seven DS as a part of the counter cult movement. Now, 325 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: before we do that, forces to back up another step, because, 326 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: of course, the first big question would be what constitutes 327 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: the cult um you'll typically encounter a list of criteria 328 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: that includes stuff like separation from one's pre existing support group, 329 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: devotion to a single domineering figure. I read one list 330 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 1: that focused on charismatic leaders, transcendent belief systems, systems of control, 331 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: and systems of influence. But obviously there's a great deal 332 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: of ambiguity in in some of these UM definitions. And 333 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: while we can all point to specific, especially historic examples 334 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: of destructive cults and say, yes, well that's a cult, 335 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 1: you can also throw this word at various religious and 336 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: political ideologies. UM. Now, certainly harmful and abusive cults. It 337 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 1: do exist centered around harmful ideologies, harmful systems, and or 338 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,679 Speaker 1: harmful individuals. Uh. So that the question isn't whether such 339 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: groups exists, but to what degree other groups are lumped 340 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:04,160 Speaker 1: in with them, uh, etcetera. Now, another key to understanding 341 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: this idea of d programming is the notion of brainwashing. 342 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: This is a term coined by journalist and propagandist Edward Hunter, 343 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,479 Speaker 1: who lived nineteen o two through who wrote Brainwashing in 344 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 1: Red China The Calculated Destruction of Men's Minds, a nineteen 345 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: fifty two anti communism book based on a nineteen fifty 346 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 1: article that he wrote. And uh, this was apparently an 347 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: outlandish idea even at the time contemporary psychologist and had 348 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: it took issue with it. Later commentators would criticize it um, 349 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: but it struck a nerve. It made its way into 350 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: mainstream fiction even uh and uh we see that in 351 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 1: films like The Manchurian Candidate and various works of visual 352 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: or written media. And it also made its way into 353 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: political discourse. I think you can possibly see this, this 354 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: type of ideas being associated with behavior as trends in 355 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 1: psychology that maybe later psychologists would look back on and 356 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 1: say that they may have sort of over emphasized the 357 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 1: role of like mechanistic conditioning and how much it could 358 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 1: do in shaping a person's cognitive and behavioral tendencies. Yeah. Absolutely, 359 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 1: I mean you take you take some understanding of behavioralism, 360 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: throw in a few more pop psychologists, a hefty dose 361 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: of red scare, and you have you have a firm 362 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: bedrock upon which to build this idea of of of brainwashing. Uh. 363 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: And and even you have like, for instance, the CIA's 364 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 1: mk Ultra program gets in on it and tries to 365 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: uh to weaponize the idea of mind control, thinking that 366 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 1: the enemy may have developed techniques that do this, And ultimately, 367 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: of course, the mk ultra revolve around seeking answers and methods. 368 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: Um from from print, for instance, the world of Psychedelics, thinking, well, 369 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,880 Speaker 1: psychedelics seem to have this effect on the way people 370 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: view the world. Maybe we could use that to break 371 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: down the human mind and then build something up in 372 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: its place. Yeah, And I think the question is, like, 373 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: what level of mechanistic control can you ultimately have over 374 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: somebody else's behavior? Can you? Can you essentially just sort 375 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,479 Speaker 1: of like format the hard drive of somebody's brain and 376 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: completely rewrite their their personality, their behaviors, and program them 377 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: like a robot or much more likely, you know, is 378 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: sort of the reality that in the kind of mundane 379 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: way that we would all observe throughout our lives. Yeah, 380 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: humans can have strong influences on each other, especially if 381 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: there's if there's a lot of them, and they form 382 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: a kind of, uh a reinforced social network. But humans 383 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: don't have lines of code in their brain, and you 384 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: can't like just format the hard drive and rewrite their 385 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: operating system exactly. Uh. An excellent source on this that 386 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: I recommend um as a Slate article written by Lorraine 387 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 1: Bosonal titled The True Story of Brainwashing and How It 388 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: Shaped America. UM It's great reading gets into all this 389 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: in detail, but essentially they write that the brainwashing and 390 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 1: mind control, both of these were essentially a boogeyman based 391 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: on fear of communism, fear of Eastern culture, and the 392 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 1: fear that Russia, China, and ultimately Korea had something that 393 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: we didn't have. They had some tool for breaking down 394 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 1: people's will and uh and changing their mind set. But 395 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 1: as it turned out, the author describes, brainwashing was not real. 396 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: Torture and trauma very much were. And for instance, the 397 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: POWs that were observed. Uh, there was this fear that that, oh, well, 398 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: there's the popes during the Korean War, that they had 399 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 1: undergone some sort of brainwashing, that there, you know, their 400 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: their minds had been changed, when in reality they were 401 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 1: they were just really traumatized individuals subjected to torturous conditions. Uh. 402 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 1: So there were no brainwashed sleeper agents. There were just 403 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: traumatized humans. But she she quotes Timothy uh Melly, professor 404 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 1: of English at Miami University at the time of the writing. 405 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 1: At any rate, uh and UH this individual says, quote, 406 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: the basic problem that brainwashing is designed to address is 407 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 1: the question why would anyone become a communist? And I 408 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: feel like that kind of summarizes a lot of this, 409 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 1: uh right there, Yeah, And I guess you could apply 410 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: that actually to any kind of ideological or life change 411 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: that you don't understand. I mean, you can ask the 412 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: same question like why would somebody join what you might 413 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 1: think of as a cult or why would somebody do X? 414 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: Or why something that doesn't at all seem appealing to 415 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: you and you can't understand why somebody would do it, 416 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: you may at that point have to assume that it's 417 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: like it's like the computer of somebody's brain has been 418 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 1: hacked and there there's malware in it, when in fact, 419 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: a more useful model might be to uh uh think 420 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: more outside the box in terms of what human incentives are. 421 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I I personally think that a lot of 422 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: times we can just have a failure of imagination in 423 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: fathoming people's say, desire for certain kinds of social interactions 424 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: and how much like a is something that even is 425 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: a like truly harmful cult or idy I'll g could 426 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 1: fulfill these needs for people if they're not getting them 427 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 1: elsewhere exactly. Yeah. And so looking back to the early 428 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, here um at Heart, you just had controversial, 429 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: ideologically driven groups uh that were often attractive to young people. 430 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: And this was not an exclusive reality of the nineteen seventies, obviously, 431 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: but this was a pronounced period of concern over it. 432 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: The mid twentieth century United States provides more than enough 433 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,199 Speaker 1: not only Cult Panic, but also Red Panic, Satanic Panic, 434 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 1: and much more. We got Panics of plenty. Oh yeah, yeah, 435 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: we have an endless, endless supply of them. And again 436 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:40,880 Speaker 1: not to say that some of these groups were not, 437 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: you know, ultimately harmful, but many of them were not. 438 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: Many of them were just different ideologies that seemed scary 439 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: to certain parts of of the public. I was reading 440 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: a source on this titled Exit Counseling and the Decline 441 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: of d Programming UM. This was by sociologist Stephen A. Kent, 442 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: and UM in a counselor by the name of Joseph 443 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 1: p uh sim Heart was published in two thousand two 444 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: in Cultic Studies Review, And they were talking about just 445 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 1: how this deep programming approach work. The the idea that okay, 446 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 1: someone has been exposed to uh to ac cult. They've 447 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,120 Speaker 1: joined a cult, and now we want to get them 448 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: out of it. What can we do? How do we 449 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: how do we reverse mindwashing? Well, we have to deprogram them. 450 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 1: Um So, so the first of all, just the the 451 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: the obvious thing here is that that we know that 452 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: that that brainwashing uh and and and mind control. These 453 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 1: are uh these are at at least over simplifications of 454 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: far more complex problems. And therefore the idea of dep 455 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: programming is based in that fallacy and that oversimplification. At 456 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 1: least from the outside, it has always kind of seemed 457 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: to me that the the logic behind deprogramming is essentially 458 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: counter brainwashing. That someone has brainwashed you to be in 459 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: a cult, and now we have to like brainwash you 460 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 1: back out of bit like you know, is I took 461 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: you into this thing, and I'm gonna take you out 462 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: the same way. Uh. So you you have to like 463 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:11,919 Speaker 1: use sort of like aggressive, uh forceful tactics to try 464 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 1: to essentially brainwash somebody back into whatever is deemed the 465 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,440 Speaker 1: legitimate culture. Is Yeah, and of course the first step 466 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,360 Speaker 1: and all of that is just by establishing or labeling 467 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: uh the offending ideology or group as a cult as 468 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,640 Speaker 1: something that is in some way deviant, that is engaging 469 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,919 Speaker 1: in mind control, and therefore there's something to reverse. But 470 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: then the d programming itself it often took the form 471 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: of involuntary extractions from the allegedly deviant ideology or group 472 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: and then attempts to forcibly reverse the alleged mind control 473 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: or brainwashing. And of course all of this should raise 474 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: just a number of red flags for anyone, because, among 475 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: other things, it assumes that the individual, often a young adult, 476 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: just has no agency or choice, like they cannot be 477 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: trusted to make make choices about what they believe in 478 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: and what they do. Um. You know, they were pulled 479 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,119 Speaker 1: in one direction by charismatic force, and now we have 480 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 1: to pull them back in another direction through intensive, uh 481 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,880 Speaker 1: you know, strong arm tactics like it's a boot camp 482 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 1: or something. And then on top of that, you run 483 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: the risk of engaging in actual kidnapping and abuse in 484 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 1: an attempt to deprogram somebody. So you quickly get into 485 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 1: very legally and ethically murky waters, assuming you don't land 486 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 1: on as bad or as you know, worse um situation 487 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: uh compared to what you were attempting to save them. 488 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 1: From um so charges of religious oppression and civil rights 489 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: violation were also made. There were various lawsuits related to 490 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: D programming efforts. And so one of the things that 491 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,199 Speaker 1: that Kent and his co out there point out is 492 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: that is that you saw this um this movement away 493 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: from D programming um uh, this idea that that first 494 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: of all D programming didn't prove all that effective, but 495 00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 1: then it gave way to techniques that were more progress 496 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: of non coercive that we're more about the autonomy of 497 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 1: the individual and an attempt to value everyone present UM 498 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 1: and find a structure that would like work with everyone's 499 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: value systems, including the value system UM of the group 500 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 1: that the individual is is that they're attempting to extract 501 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: them from all. Right, so maybe there is a recognition 502 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,400 Speaker 1: of flaws within some of these so called D programming tactics. 503 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 1: But of course you would still have the problem that 504 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: people are ending up in in in cults that at 505 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: least you know their loved ones are uh could probably 506 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: make a strong case or a really negative influence on 507 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 1: their lives and are certainly hurting hurting family relationships and 508 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: stuff like that. Uh So, so is there something else 509 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: people go to is another option for trying to trying 510 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: to help guide their loved ones out of these groups. Right, 511 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: and it seems like, yeah, this this idea of exit 512 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: counseling or at least this basic approach seemed to largely 513 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: replace it, which which which sounds like a no brainer. Right, 514 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: should we maybe do something more like counseling? And what 515 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 1: we think of now is intervention with a family member 516 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: we're worried about, or should we kidnap them with the 517 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: aid of some sort of third party? Um, you know, 518 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: it seems certainly from from a legal and moral standpoint, uh, 519 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: there's only one direction you should go in. And of 520 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: course it also seems that the d programming had had 521 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: had a checkered success rate as well. Reminds me of 522 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: some other stuff I was reading about the Scared Straight 523 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: programs that of course we're quite big what I guess 524 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: back in the the nineties, especially the idea that if 525 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: you had like problem kids or kids that that were 526 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: at risk, you would have somebody come in and scare 527 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: them straight with a really scary talk about prison life 528 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: and how um you know. Ultimately, some of the numbers 529 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: didn't subsequently did not support the idea that this was effective. Yeah, 530 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,239 Speaker 1: I can imagine. I think it comes down to the 531 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: just the reality that that human beings are far more 532 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: complicated than that. You know, you can't just scare someone 533 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: straight you in order to move the away from from 534 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: one way of life or worldview towards another. You can't. 535 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: You can't rescue them from from a particular you know, 536 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: social group or ideology by essentially kidnapping them and um 537 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: and just pointing in the other direction like they're an automaton. 538 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: It just needs to be Oh, all you have to 539 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: do is just get them, wind them up and point 540 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: them in the right direction, and they'll be fine. Like 541 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: that's just that's that's not really how people work. Well, Yeah, 542 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: it just seems like a very top down way of 543 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: viewing your ability to influence other people. So if you 544 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: want to steer somebody toward a path in life that 545 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 1: you might very well correctly think would be much better 546 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: for them in the long run and might make them 547 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: much happier in the long run and make their loved 548 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: ones happier in the long run, obviously, there are ways 549 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: of doing that other than just trying to sort of 550 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: like dominate and command them to move in that direction. 551 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, obviously sometimes you can influence people 552 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: by by sort of dominating and commanding them, but you 553 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: can also influence people with say positive incentives, reminding them 554 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: of reminding them of all the good things and opportunities 555 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: that are open to them in in in a freer life, 556 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: outside of the strictures of whatever kind of you know, 557 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: culture or other thing. This is yeah, yeah, so it's 558 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: this is ultimately I think in oversimplification, but it seems 559 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: like the mind control D programming model was more based 560 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: in the idea that something was done to an individual 561 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: and that thing can be undone, you know, and um, 562 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: you know, it's ultimately based in the in the the 563 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: simplistic fallacy of mind control and brainwashing. Now, as for 564 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: how that relates to this Outer Limits episode, Um, you know, 565 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: I think this episode, you know, ultimately has a dark 566 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: view on life and uh, you know, one one in 567 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: which you're going to be manipulated by one alien overlord 568 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 1: or another you know, sort of you've got to serve 569 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: somebody vibe. Uh. It feels like they're striking a very 570 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: anti D programming chord here, which I think is the 571 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: chord to strike in your in your fiction, as our 572 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: main character is is just D program quote unquote into 573 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: serving to another cruel master. Well, one bit of complexity 574 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: that this Outer Limits episode does get into is we 575 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: didn't mention that they're actually multiple human parties involved in 576 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: um in the D programming process. So in this episode 577 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,479 Speaker 1: you have Brent Spiner, and yet he's playing this like 578 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: brutal D programmer, who's you know, yelling at yelling at Evans, 579 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 1: saying wake up, snap out of it. You know you're 580 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: a human, and like cutting him with a knife and 581 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: kicking him around and all this again trying to top 582 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: down just like dominate and coerce him into into snapping 583 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 1: out of it. But then the other side is alongside 584 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: them is evans wife from before the alien invasion. They 585 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: had become separated, they didn't know what had happened to 586 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: each other and uh and by getting reacquainted, she actually 587 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: I think that the episode shows that she is more 588 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: effective than Brent Spiner is in breaking through with him, 589 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: and she's actually not not knowingly part of the alien 590 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: plot to get him to assassinate she is also confused 591 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: about what's going on. That's right, So in a way, 592 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: even though it has a cruel twist at the end 593 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: the episode might sort of be making the point that 594 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 1: you might have more success breaking through to somebody who 595 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: has been uh who has been conditioned into a state 596 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: of un freedom by offering them sort of like positive 597 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: incentives of love and connection and reminding them of what's 598 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: good about the other way of life, rather, you know, 599 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: maybe more so than just like beating them and yelling 600 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: at them and trying to command them to be free. Yeah, 601 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: in a way, it's a shame they didn't re explore 602 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: this world in other episodes of the Outer Limits, because 603 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: the nineties Outer Limits show they did this from time 604 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 1: to time there there. Sometimes they would do a series 605 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: of even like three or four episodes that took place 606 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: within the same universe and uh and continued sometimes same 607 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: characters or or same faction, same world like this would 608 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: have been. It would have been an interesting one for 609 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: them to come back to and explore that compassion angle 610 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: more and maybe give us some more uplifting ending. You know. Yeah, 611 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: maybe that's how the humans actually do rebel successfully against 612 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: the uh whatever whatever they're called, the alligator men. Yeah, 613 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: give him a gift basket of saragon oil, and then 614 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: that they would, they'll realize, Oh the Jrolem really do 615 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 1: care about me? No, no, no, I didn't mean that 616 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: for them, I mean for each other. Yeah, they can 617 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: mount the resistance than all right, well let's switch gears. 618 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: Let's get into the next next anthology selection here, what 619 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:35,839 Speaker 1: do you have for his show? All right, well, I've 620 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: got an episode of the Hammer House of Horror. Rob. 621 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 1: Do you know the Hammer House of Horror? Yes, Now 622 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,240 Speaker 1: I have to say I've I've only watched the one episode, 623 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 1: the one we're discussing here today. But um, but it's 624 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,400 Speaker 1: a it's a it's a pretty fun little series. Uh 625 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 1: this came out what so you know we're we're we're 626 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: balanced right there on the edge, you know of the 627 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies in the nineteen eighties. Essentially it's a late 628 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: nineties seventies production. Uh, comes to us from from Hammer, 629 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 1: so it has that hammer you know, British horror drive 630 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 1: vibe to it. But each episode is a different story. Um, 631 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: and some of them have some pretty great casts. I 632 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:17,320 Speaker 1: mean they all, I think they all have a pretty 633 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: great cast. If one episode we have Peter Cushing and 634 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 1: a young Brian Cox. If you're not sure what a 635 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: young Brian Cox looks like, uh, this is an episode 636 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: worth checking out. And there's another episode, by the way, 637 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: titled Guardian of the abyss uh In the plot of 638 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 1: this one involves John D's mirror, or a mirror that's 639 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: supposed to be one of John D's mirrors. I didn't 640 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 1: get a chance to watch it in full, but I 641 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: had to see if what mirror they showed, and I 642 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: included a picture of it here for you, Joe. It 643 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 1: it is, obviously, is not the fabled magic mirror, the 644 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 1: Aztec mirror that that John D actually had. This is 645 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 1: a real They really goth this one up. They had 646 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,399 Speaker 1: to make it look like a like a European haunted mirror. Yeah, 647 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: it's got like a silver rim and a bunch of 648 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,880 Speaker 1: elaborate handles. Get out of here with that, give me 649 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,879 Speaker 1: that or gone face on it. Yeah. Yeah. But this 650 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,319 Speaker 1: episode that we're gonna talk about here is titled The 651 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: Mark of Satan. Yes, and boy does it have that 652 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: hammer horror field. Like you say, it's got that late 653 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: seventies British thing. It just this whole thing just like 654 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 1: it smells like back bacon, you know, Heinz baked beans, 655 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:25,800 Speaker 1: it's all there. You can smell it through the film. 656 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: So this episode, I guess I'll describe it first and 657 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: then we can talk about what what this connected to 658 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,799 Speaker 1: for me. So this episode begins with a scene of 659 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 1: brain surgery. You've got a team of doctors who are 660 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 1: opening up a patient's skull, and suddenly the patient, he 661 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: seems to show signs of awareness. His eyes start to 662 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,319 Speaker 1: move scanning the room. He twitches. You see these sort 663 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,720 Speaker 1: of flickers of waxing consciousness, and then the patient starts 664 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,359 Speaker 1: to talk. In the middle of the brain surgery. He's 665 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 1: moaning and he says, leave my soul alone. Solid opening. 666 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 1: They had me right there at the beginning. Yeah, we 667 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: got a supernatural or potentially supernatural hospital drama, some sort 668 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 1: of intense surgery with all sorts of tools and like 669 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 1: clamps holding the character's head in place. Yeah, leave my 670 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:23,800 Speaker 1: soul alone. So next we meet our protagonist who is 671 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,879 Speaker 1: named Edwin Roared and Edwin works in the morgue at 672 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: the same hospital. He is assigned to process the cadaver 673 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,240 Speaker 1: of the patient from the surgery and the opening scene, 674 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: and we learn in this in this next scene that 675 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:43,120 Speaker 1: the patient was someone named Samuel Holt now Roared is 676 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 1: played by the actor Peter Mcinry, who was born in 677 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 1: ninety and he's quite good in this. He plays a 678 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,759 Speaker 1: nice focal point of insanity, you know, that kind of 679 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 1: that necessary character to so many weird tales where like 680 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 1: the madness is overtaking them. Um. I it was not 681 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 1: really familiar with this guy, but he had a strong 682 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: career on the British stage and on television. Among other things, 683 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 1: he was in the nineteen seventy three horror anthology film 684 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: Tales that Witness Madness And another interesting genre piece that 685 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: he's credited to is a film I haven't seen, but 686 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: now I'm super interested in, Footprints on the Moon from 687 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: ninety five um, which also featured klas Kinski in a role. 688 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:28,319 Speaker 1: It was a well received, seemingly surreal jallow film by 689 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: Luigi Bezzoni, in which uh, the actor Florinda Bulcan plays 690 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 1: a woman who is psychologically disturbed by these dreams she 691 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 1: keeps having about an astronaut dying on the moon. Wow. Yeah, 692 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 1: so I love that pitch. I'm intrigued. I've never heard 693 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,840 Speaker 1: of it. Uh, yeah, I gotta look that up. A 694 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 1: couple of other actors have noted this one. Conrad Phillips, 695 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 1: who lived twenty sixteen, plays um Dr Manders a delightfully 696 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: impish character. Yeah he's uh what, there's a partner at 697 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 1: the big getting where he's like, well, gentlemen, we are 698 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:07,399 Speaker 1: looking at the mortal remains of an individualist. And then 699 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 1: we also have Georgina Hale And this was born in 700 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: nineteen forty three. She placed Stella. She was in a 701 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 1: number of Kin Russell movies, including nineteen seventy one Is 702 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,240 Speaker 1: the Devil's Which Is, which is, of course an excellent 703 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,920 Speaker 1: and uh famed film, infamous I'm to understand, and infamous 704 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,680 Speaker 1: in some circles as well, but and and for a 705 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,040 Speaker 1: long time hard hard to get your hands on. But 706 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: at any rate, um, it's an a notable film, no 707 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,360 Speaker 1: matter where you stand on it, whether you want to 708 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,959 Speaker 1: to view it or or burn it. Well. So, getting 709 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,480 Speaker 1: back to the plot of the episode, we go through 710 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,040 Speaker 1: the autopsy of the patient from the opening scene, Samuel Holt, 711 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 1: who was in brain surgery and said leave my soul alone. 712 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 1: We uh. It is revealed that prior to his brain surgery, 713 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:55,760 Speaker 1: this patient, Samuel Holt, had tried to perform a self trepidation. 714 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: He attempted to create a hole in his own skull 715 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:04,720 Speaker 1: with a power drill, allegedly to relieve pressure in his brain. 716 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: I think Dr Manders has some kind of comment about this. 717 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,360 Speaker 1: He's like, you know, pressure in the brain. Leads to 718 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,960 Speaker 1: a trip to the Old Iron Manga and while sewing 719 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:20,799 Speaker 1: up holds body after the autopsy, Edwin accidentally pricks his 720 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 1: finger with the suture needle, and at first he doesn't 721 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 1: think anything of this. He just puts some iodine on it. 722 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: But when his boss finds out, his boss gets very upset. 723 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 1: He's like, uhh. He tells Edwin that he needs to 724 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 1: go to casualty and uh, I think tells him he 725 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: needs to get his tetanus shots and a bunch of 726 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 1: stuff because well. It turns out that when Holt was 727 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,440 Speaker 1: dying of a blood clot in the brain, Holt himself 728 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,839 Speaker 1: had believed that this this was caused by an infection, 729 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:55,440 Speaker 1: an infection that he called an evil virus. So the 730 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:57,719 Speaker 1: guy who said leave my soul alone, he believed he 731 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 1: was infected with a virus of evil. Now, a couple 732 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,320 Speaker 1: of threads begin to develop in this episode that reflects 733 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 1: something about Edwin's deteriorating psychological state. So one thing is 734 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 1: that Edwin perceives a strange pattern emerging everywhere he goes. 735 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 1: He notices the number nine. There's an office sweepstakes that 736 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,680 Speaker 1: pays out a prize of nine pounds. He has to 737 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,960 Speaker 1: store Holt's body and freezer number nine. He has to 738 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 1: sew up a body using nine stitches to every three inches, 739 00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 1: and things like that. Even more alarmingly, he sometimes believes 740 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 1: he can hear radio signals in his head and these 741 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 1: are seemingly broadcasted from a weather vane on the roof 742 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,799 Speaker 1: of the hospital. Beyond that, he starts to believe that 743 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 1: crowds of ominous strangers wearing sunglasses or sort of following 744 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:54,360 Speaker 1: him around town, watching him and menacing him. Now, eventually 745 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,239 Speaker 1: we see his home situation, which is that Edwin is 746 00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 1: single and he lives in a house with his extremely 747 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:04,439 Speaker 1: grumpy and judgmental mother, along with a tenant who lives 748 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: in the house named Stella, and this is this character 749 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 1: is played by Georgina Hale. Edwin at some point tells 750 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:15,319 Speaker 1: Stella about you know, he's explaining the delusions he's experiencing, 751 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 1: and she, very unhelpfully is pretty much like, oh yeah, 752 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,879 Speaker 1: yep um, And so it seems like everywhere he goes 753 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:28,279 Speaker 1: things nobody's really intervening to make things better. So his 754 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,720 Speaker 1: psychological state worsens. He comes to believe that his mother 755 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,040 Speaker 1: has somehow infected him with an evil virus that is 756 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:39,319 Speaker 1: attacking his brain, and he believes that she may have 757 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,440 Speaker 1: killed his father years ago with the same virus, though 758 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 1: it seems his father actually died of meningitis. At one point, 759 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 1: Edwin visits a priest to seek counsel, and then the 760 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,840 Speaker 1: priest very helpfully decides to tell him about the passage 761 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,920 Speaker 1: in the Book of Revelation concerning the number of the Beast. 762 00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 1: So it's like, oh, yes, uh, this man is offerings 763 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,040 Speaker 1: from some form of psychosis. What he needs is the 764 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:06,480 Speaker 1: Book of Revelation. Yes, it's like, but the faith offers 765 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:10,719 Speaker 1: many directions for your your your your confusion and obsession 766 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,120 Speaker 1: that may tell you about it. So from here things 767 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,359 Speaker 1: get worse and worse. Edwin ends up doing murders. Uh. 768 00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,720 Speaker 1: He's having these full blown delusions that a a coven 769 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 1: of Satan worshiping doctors and acquaintances of his have put 770 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:28,200 Speaker 1: a virus in his brain in order to control him 771 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,800 Speaker 1: and that they want him to eat a baby for Satan. 772 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,600 Speaker 1: But then there's a strange so you know, this could 773 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,280 Speaker 1: just be a story about a man losing his mind, 774 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:41,600 Speaker 1: but the the episode develops that the same exact delusion 775 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,120 Speaker 1: we discover was held by the man from the surgery 776 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,120 Speaker 1: at the beginning of the episode, Samuel Holt, And in 777 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,840 Speaker 1: the end, Edwin, like Holt, tries to relieve himself of 778 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: the pressure by performing a self trepidation with an electric drill, 779 00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,840 Speaker 1: and he also, like Holt, ends up in neurosurgery and 780 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,400 Speaker 1: echo of the opening scene, and the doctors are operating 781 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,959 Speaker 1: on Edwin's brain and we hear a moaning plea leave 782 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:11,600 Speaker 1: my soul alone, m And the ending is very ambiguous. 783 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,160 Speaker 1: I think the viewer is meant to understand that there 784 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 1: actually is no Satanic coven and that this is in 785 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,200 Speaker 1: Edwin's head. But I think the unanswered question in the 786 00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:25,000 Speaker 1: narrative is whether Edwin was somehow actually infected with this 787 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 1: demonic obsession and and this this imagery when he pricked 788 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,520 Speaker 1: his finger while he was working on Holt's body, It 789 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,000 Speaker 1: sort of raises this question of would it be possible 790 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:38,719 Speaker 1: for this this series of demonic images and ideas to 791 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:43,480 Speaker 1: somehow infect a person like an evil virus. Now, I 792 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,040 Speaker 1: don't know of any realistic mechanism by which something like 793 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:49,560 Speaker 1: this would happen. I kind of doubt there is, but 794 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,320 Speaker 1: I would like to explore a sort of related idea 795 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,319 Speaker 1: that that is quite real, which has to do with 796 00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:59,520 Speaker 1: the idea of a relationship between virus like mechanisms and 797 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,680 Speaker 1: the deep contents of the human brain, even things that 798 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,279 Speaker 1: somebody might think of as the soul. Now, um, the 799 00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:10,319 Speaker 1: fact that this episode centers around round trepid Nation I 800 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,799 Speaker 1: found kind of interesting, especially since it came out in 801 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,840 Speaker 1: Britain in nineteen eighty. This would have been right after 802 00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,920 Speaker 1: the Countess of Welliams and uh and Mark Amanda Fielding 803 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:24,240 Speaker 1: first ran for British Parliament on the platform Trap Nation 804 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:28,960 Speaker 1: for the National health advocating research into its benefits. UM. 805 00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:33,799 Speaker 1: She famously trepanned herself in nineteen seventy, following Dutch Trap 806 00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:38,759 Speaker 1: Nation proponent Bart Huges's example, and UM, you know this, 807 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:43,360 Speaker 1: UH may sound a bit crazy, but as as Michael 808 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:45,560 Speaker 1: Paulin pointed out in his excellent book How to Change 809 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:49,120 Speaker 1: Your Mind, Fielding has proven herself to be an effective 810 00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:53,839 Speaker 1: drug policy reformer UH. In subsequent years lobbyist and research coordinator. 811 00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:58,560 Speaker 1: In she founded the Foundation to Further Consciousness, later renamed 812 00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:03,400 Speaker 1: the Beckley found Nation, which supports neuroscientific research. Her recent 813 00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,240 Speaker 1: and current work, Paul And writes, shifted away from trepid 814 00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,799 Speaker 1: Nation and towards the possibilities posed by psychedelics. So you 815 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,239 Speaker 1: think it's possible this episode was influenced by by her 816 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:18,080 Speaker 1: famous advocacy for for drilling a hole in your skull. Yes, yeah, 817 00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:20,719 Speaker 1: I I I would. I would almost bet on it. 818 00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,120 Speaker 1: You know, it seems like the time, you know, like 819 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,680 Speaker 1: a lot of horror uh fiction, you know, it speaks 820 00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:29,400 Speaker 1: to what's going on in the public mindset, and so 821 00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,640 Speaker 1: I feel like there's just there's just too much trepin 822 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:34,680 Speaker 1: nation in the in the in the in the air 823 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:36,520 Speaker 1: for this not to be kind of at least a 824 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,400 Speaker 1: partial response to it. Not that it has anything particularly, 825 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,239 Speaker 1: you know, deep to say about trepid Nation itself, but 826 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,840 Speaker 1: it's it's it leans. It's a it's just a concept 827 00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,920 Speaker 1: that leans, uh, that allows one to lean into the 828 00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,360 Speaker 1: horror a bit. You know. It's it's just it's like, uh, 829 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,400 Speaker 1: you know, it's like fly paper for for horror writing. Now, 830 00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:57,640 Speaker 1: if you'd like to hear more about about trepin nation though, 831 00:46:57,680 --> 00:46:59,880 Speaker 1: we we did an episode several years back titled The 832 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,040 Speaker 1: Tone of Madness UM that gets into all of that. 833 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,320 Speaker 1: And you know, it's sort of the the older historical 834 00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:10,720 Speaker 1: idea of trepidation as well as um the more modern 835 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:14,280 Speaker 1: twentieth century advocates of it. But you know, the basic 836 00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:18,440 Speaker 1: idea came down in the modern sense that you have 837 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,040 Speaker 1: you known increase of blood in the brain that could 838 00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:26,279 Speaker 1: bring about altered states of consciousness, um, etcetera. It's a 839 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,839 Speaker 1: it's a really fascinating, um fascinating topic. To be clear 840 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,239 Speaker 1: that this is what was claimed by its advocates, not 841 00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:35,520 Speaker 1: that we're advocating trepidation, right, there's no I don't don't 842 00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:37,920 Speaker 1: believe there's any scientific evidence that it actually works, but 843 00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:42,080 Speaker 1: it had its vocal proponents. But if you're even halfway tempted, 844 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,680 Speaker 1: I think you should you should take you should just 845 00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:48,080 Speaker 1: follow the model of a Manda Fielding, who who again 846 00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:51,880 Speaker 1: has turned away from UM from advocating trepid nation and 847 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:58,120 Speaker 1: looking more into uh actual you know, legitimate research into psychedelics. Uh. 848 00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,680 Speaker 1: So you know ultimately that that's a whole area of 849 00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,320 Speaker 1: research that does not require drilling a hole in your skull. 850 00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:06,480 Speaker 1: And it goes without saying, don't drill a hole in 851 00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:08,719 Speaker 1: your skull, especially based on anything that you hear on 852 00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,160 Speaker 1: this podcast or see on the hammer House of Horror. Right, yeah, 853 00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,919 Speaker 1: don't make major life decisions based on the Hammer House 854 00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:26,799 Speaker 1: of Horror series. But on the subject of viruses in mind. Uh, 855 00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,520 Speaker 1: this this does bring up a really interesting question of like, 856 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,000 Speaker 1: did you ever wonder, you know, down at the cell level, 857 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:36,680 Speaker 1: at the molecular level, what is the mechanism of say, 858 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,919 Speaker 1: memory formation. You know, our memories to to a great 859 00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,680 Speaker 1: extent or a lot of what makes us who we are. 860 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,200 Speaker 1: And so you might say that in a metaphorical since 861 00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:47,400 Speaker 1: you know, memories are a big part of what would 862 00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,239 Speaker 1: make your soul. And so I was reading about some 863 00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:54,640 Speaker 1: interesting research and a couple of articles from January. One 864 00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:58,680 Speaker 1: of them was a news feature in Nature by Sarah 865 00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:02,640 Speaker 1: Reardon called cells hack virus like protein to communicate, and 866 00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,600 Speaker 1: another one was in The Atlantic by Ed Young called 867 00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:10,839 Speaker 1: brain cells share information with virus like capsules. And these 868 00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,520 Speaker 1: two articles were in turn summarizing and reacting to the 869 00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:18,920 Speaker 1: pretty much simultaneous publication of a couple of scientific papers 870 00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:23,000 Speaker 1: in the journal Cell, both concerning a very interesting gene 871 00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:26,719 Speaker 1: and its associated protein, which is known as ARC ARC 872 00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:30,200 Speaker 1: A r C. One of these papers was by Ashley 873 00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:32,560 Speaker 1: at All in in Cell, and the other one was 874 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,560 Speaker 1: by Petution at All. Now, the gene known as ARC 875 00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,920 Speaker 1: is present in all kinds of different organisms. You you 876 00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:42,960 Speaker 1: can find different versions of it, saying human cells, in 877 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:46,400 Speaker 1: the cells of mice, in the cells of flies like 878 00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:51,399 Speaker 1: Drosophila flies, in the cells of reptiles and birds. And 879 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:55,680 Speaker 1: it apparently encodes a product known as the ARC protein, 880 00:49:55,800 --> 00:50:00,719 Speaker 1: where ARC stands for activity regulated cytoskeleton associate DID protein 881 00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:04,400 Speaker 1: and ARC has been known about since the nineteen nineties, 882 00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:08,239 Speaker 1: but some recent discoveries have made it seem even more interesting. 883 00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:11,680 Speaker 1: Uh And and there's an interesting scene that ed Young 884 00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,239 Speaker 1: describes in his article about this where he's summarizing the 885 00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:17,280 Speaker 1: research on one of the authors on one of these papers, 886 00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:21,200 Speaker 1: a neuroscientist named Jason Shepherd who works at the University 887 00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:24,560 Speaker 1: of Utah in Salt Lake City, who was studying the 888 00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:28,080 Speaker 1: ARC gene and its associated proteins in mice. In the 889 00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:32,120 Speaker 1: I believe the in the motor neurons of mice. And 890 00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,840 Speaker 1: what the article describes is that Jason Shephard was observing 891 00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:40,600 Speaker 1: the proteins that were made by this gene under a 892 00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:43,839 Speaker 1: under a highly powerful microscope, and when he first saw 893 00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:48,960 Speaker 1: the structures, what he thought was that they looked like viruses. Now, 894 00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,880 Speaker 1: of course, these are not viruses, these are not external 895 00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:55,799 Speaker 1: infectious agents. These are structures that are produced by the 896 00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:59,799 Speaker 1: natural cells in a mouse's body. So what both of 897 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,760 Speaker 1: these papers were looking at were that they were studying 898 00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:06,359 Speaker 1: what are known as extra cellular vesicles. And these are 899 00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:10,920 Speaker 1: sort of little chunks of cell membranes that separate from 900 00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,080 Speaker 1: their original host cells and then they go off somewhere 901 00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:15,799 Speaker 1: and do their own things, so that you know, they 902 00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:18,600 Speaker 1: actually are a part of a cell that leaves the 903 00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:21,880 Speaker 1: cell and floats free of it to maybe go connect 904 00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:24,640 Speaker 1: with another cell or do something else in the body. 905 00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:28,480 Speaker 1: And extracellular vesicles can be found all throughout the body, 906 00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:30,440 Speaker 1: but there are a lot of questions about what they do. 907 00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:33,160 Speaker 1: We don't really know a lot uh, And apparently these 908 00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:37,400 Speaker 1: two teams were looking at these these extracellular vessels that 909 00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:41,239 Speaker 1: were released by various neurons cells in the nervous system 910 00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:44,000 Speaker 1: to find out what they were doing, and they independently 911 00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:46,840 Speaker 1: found that the vesicles that are released by neurons in 912 00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:52,359 Speaker 1: both flies and mice contain this ARC gene. Now it's 913 00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:56,839 Speaker 1: interesting because there is already existing research to show some 914 00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,360 Speaker 1: things about this ARC gene, for example, that the ARC 915 00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:04,040 Speaker 1: gene helps neurons form connections between one another, and of course, 916 00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,239 Speaker 1: connections between neurons underlie a lot of what the brain does. 917 00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,400 Speaker 1: And there is also research to show very interesting macro 918 00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:16,319 Speaker 1: behavioral effects of the ARC gene. For example, mice that 919 00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:20,640 Speaker 1: are genetically altered to lack the ARC gene have difficulty 920 00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:25,280 Speaker 1: with memory formation tasks. It seems like they can't learn, 921 00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,200 Speaker 1: they can't make long term memories. So, say, if you 922 00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:31,439 Speaker 1: train a mouse to run a maze, if they don't 923 00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,120 Speaker 1: have the ARC gene, they can't make the ARC protein. 924 00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:37,920 Speaker 1: They apparently can't learn anything about the maze that sticks 925 00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:39,520 Speaker 1: with them. They might have to, you know, do the 926 00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:42,600 Speaker 1: maze as if for the first time every time. So 927 00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:46,000 Speaker 1: it seems that ARC is very important in whatever process 928 00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:51,759 Speaker 1: it is in the brain that turns experiences into structural 929 00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:54,480 Speaker 1: changes in the brain that would you know, allow you 930 00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:57,319 Speaker 1: to say, cement a memory that could be referenced later on, 931 00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:02,360 Speaker 1: but I mentioned that y'all article describes the scene where 932 00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:06,279 Speaker 1: this researcher is looking at the at the arc proteins 933 00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:10,120 Speaker 1: under the microscope, and that when he examined them, he 934 00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,239 Speaker 1: saw what looked like these these hollow shells that very 935 00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:19,600 Speaker 1: much resembled viruses. Specifically, they looked like textbook illustrations of HIV, 936 00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:22,080 Speaker 1: which of course is a type of virus known as 937 00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:26,960 Speaker 1: a retrovirus. And apparently a shepherd ran these images by 938 00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:30,319 Speaker 1: some viral experts and they did confirm that yes, these 939 00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,480 Speaker 1: shells that were being made by these cells within the 940 00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:37,120 Speaker 1: mice's bodies looked a lot like the protein shells the 941 00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:41,320 Speaker 1: capsids that you would find around viruses like HIV. So apparently, 942 00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:43,680 Speaker 1: the arc genes that you would find in animals like 943 00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:48,480 Speaker 1: mice today, it descends from an ancient class of ancestral genes, 944 00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:52,320 Speaker 1: types of retro transposons, and they can be found in 945 00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:54,880 Speaker 1: the genomes of all kinds of animals. As I said, 946 00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,359 Speaker 1: but these genes are very interesting in that they can 947 00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:04,279 Speaker 1: behave almost like independent infectious agents. They can copy themselves 948 00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:08,080 Speaker 1: and then insert those copies of themselves somewhere else within 949 00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:12,399 Speaker 1: the host's genome. But Apparently, at some point these ancestral 950 00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:16,680 Speaker 1: retro transposons gain the ability not only to copy and 951 00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:20,759 Speaker 1: paste themselves elsewhere within the genome, but to build a 952 00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:24,919 Speaker 1: protein shell, essentially to build themselves a spaceship that would 953 00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:29,719 Speaker 1: surround this gene, surround this length of genetic material, and 954 00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:34,239 Speaker 1: then allow this cage protected strand of genetic information to 955 00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:37,800 Speaker 1: leave its original host cell to fly off into space 956 00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,440 Speaker 1: and and to go boldly. And ed Young writes that 957 00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:44,440 Speaker 1: this actually is believed to be the origin of retroviruses. 958 00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:47,200 Speaker 1: So in a way, we have these genes within our 959 00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:52,960 Speaker 1: bodies that are actually cousins of wild, infectious retroviruses that 960 00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:56,640 Speaker 1: infect people and harm them. Uh And and this apparently 961 00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:59,520 Speaker 1: is why the shells or the capsids made by these 962 00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,160 Speaker 1: stretches of DNA are so similar. The arc gene that 963 00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:05,520 Speaker 1: you find in animals is apparently very similar to a 964 00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:08,520 Speaker 1: viral gene called a GAG gene. And and again this 965 00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:11,760 Speaker 1: is the gene that codes for the construction of this 966 00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:16,480 Speaker 1: this protein shell, the capsid that protects the genetic material 967 00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:19,000 Speaker 1: of a virus and allows it to get into a 968 00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:21,759 Speaker 1: cell and infect it. So what we have here is 969 00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:24,840 Speaker 1: that there are cells within the brains or the nervous 970 00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:28,080 Speaker 1: systems of animals as diverse as you know, from mice 971 00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:32,760 Speaker 1: to to Drosophila two flies that use this gene similar 972 00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:36,440 Speaker 1: to a gene found in viruses, to build this protein 973 00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:40,319 Speaker 1: shell or capsid, this structure to surround a strand of 974 00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:44,880 Speaker 1: RNA based information like viruses do, and then send that 975 00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:50,759 Speaker 1: RNA information to another cell, again like viruses do so, 976 00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:52,640 Speaker 1: so in a way, you could look at the the 977 00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:56,759 Speaker 1: brain cells as using a very similar structure to what 978 00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:00,480 Speaker 1: is used in viruses to sort of in act one 979 00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:05,200 Speaker 1: another with something with some kind of RNA information. So 980 00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:08,239 Speaker 1: why would cells in the brain be doing this? And 981 00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:11,120 Speaker 1: one possibility is that it's a way for neurons to 982 00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:13,920 Speaker 1: sort of control each other, to exert some kind of 983 00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:16,680 Speaker 1: pressure or influence on each other. Of course, in the 984 00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:19,080 Speaker 1: case of a virus, a virus wants to infect a 985 00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:22,160 Speaker 1: new cell so that it makes more copies of the virus. 986 00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:25,080 Speaker 1: But in this case, a neuron could maybe use ARC 987 00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:28,760 Speaker 1: to send RNA to a nearby cell, which upon arrival 988 00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:33,719 Speaker 1: would influence which genes are activated within that cell. Now, 989 00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:36,480 Speaker 1: there's still tons of questions that we don't have answered 990 00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:39,719 Speaker 1: about what what is going on here, like what is 991 00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:44,080 Speaker 1: exactly this RNA cargo for, what does it do? What 992 00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:47,319 Speaker 1: does it do exactly? Though, again it's very interesting to 993 00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:50,439 Speaker 1: view this virus like behavior at the at the cell 994 00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:54,040 Speaker 1: level uh in light of what we know about the 995 00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:57,560 Speaker 1: macro behavioral effects of the ARC gene. Once again, if 996 00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:01,759 Speaker 1: you disable ARC, a mouse without apparently can't learn or 997 00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:05,440 Speaker 1: make memories. Fascinating, So we have this this this kind 998 00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:10,080 Speaker 1: of ancestral potential, ancestral viral component to uh to to 999 00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:12,480 Speaker 1: to some of the like the basic attributes of what 1000 00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:15,120 Speaker 1: do we think to think to think of having a 1001 00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:18,120 Speaker 1: mind or having certainly having consciousness, but even having just 1002 00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:21,400 Speaker 1: like a functional animal brain, right though. A very interesting 1003 00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:25,600 Speaker 1: thing is, though lots of animals have ARC, they're not 1004 00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:29,280 Speaker 1: all descended from a common ARC ancestor, or at least 1005 00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:33,200 Speaker 1: not within the animal line. So fruit flies have ARC genes, 1006 00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:36,440 Speaker 1: mike mice have ARC genes, Humans have ARC genes. But 1007 00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:41,320 Speaker 1: it appears that say flies and vertebrates acquired these genes, 1008 00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:45,640 Speaker 1: these similar genes from different sources uh in uh to 1009 00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:49,320 Speaker 1: quote ed young in separate events that took place millions 1010 00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:52,400 Speaker 1: of years apart, and yet they've both got this stuff 1011 00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,520 Speaker 1: so it seems like it is something that is probably 1012 00:57:55,680 --> 00:58:00,400 Speaker 1: liable to be co opted by by animal gene gnomes 1013 00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:03,320 Speaker 1: in a way that is very useful, such that it 1014 00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:07,160 Speaker 1: happened multiple times in the history of life. And so 1015 00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:10,080 Speaker 1: there are all these really interesting possibilities about what this 1016 00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:13,600 Speaker 1: could mean in terms of learning more about how our 1017 00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:16,640 Speaker 1: brains work and how our bodies evolved, but also in 1018 00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:20,800 Speaker 1: even potentially in in therapeutics, because as we were talking about, 1019 00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:23,320 Speaker 1: ARC has been highlighted as possibly playing a role in 1020 00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:27,520 Speaker 1: a number of neurological disorders, including some age related loss 1021 00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:31,800 Speaker 1: of mental capacity. So Jason Shephard is quoted in in 1022 00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:35,040 Speaker 1: ned Young's article as as observing that the brains of 1023 00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:39,000 Speaker 1: young mice produce way more ARC protein than the brains 1024 00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:42,000 Speaker 1: of old mice. And it looks like that possibly by 1025 00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:45,760 Speaker 1: inducing an increased supply of ARC protein in an older 1026 00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:49,880 Speaker 1: mouse's brain, the older mouse's brain will show improved abilities 1027 00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:53,000 Speaker 1: to learn and adapt, maybe acting a little bit more 1028 00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:56,400 Speaker 1: like a younger mouse's brain, having that uh, that more 1029 00:58:56,400 --> 00:59:00,600 Speaker 1: plastic potential. So I found this fast sinating that it 1030 00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:04,200 Speaker 1: could quite literally be the case that there's something pretty 1031 00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:08,360 Speaker 1: much like a virus in the brain that makes our 1032 00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:12,360 Speaker 1: minds what they are. That's fascinating, and it of course 1033 00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:14,640 Speaker 1: to now to bring it back to Hammer House of Horrors. 1034 00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:19,400 Speaker 1: Um not. Obviously, nobody's making the point that this research 1035 00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:22,960 Speaker 1: means that this episode is entirely possible or practical or 1036 00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:29,280 Speaker 1: anything that. Yes, proof of the episode um revealed, but 1037 00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:32,840 Speaker 1: uh no it um. It does make you uh uh 1038 00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:37,600 Speaker 1: you know, sort of reflect on the seemingly outrageous notion here, 1039 00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:42,440 Speaker 1: maybe being a little more reasonable than one might assume 1040 00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:45,600 Speaker 1: just one watching it. I mean, obviously I can't imagine 1041 00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:49,120 Speaker 1: how arc proteins are. Something similar would make you, uh, 1042 00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:54,040 Speaker 1: you know, start obsessing over numerology and feeling like you 1043 00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:57,320 Speaker 1: have there's a there's an outside pressure from people in 1044 00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:01,560 Speaker 1: sunglasses for you to eat a baby. But but still, 1045 01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:04,680 Speaker 1: uh you know, the the basic premise, uh you know, 1046 01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:07,560 Speaker 1: matches up with this idea a little bit segue to 1047 01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:10,520 Speaker 1: something totally different. I remember when I was a kid 1048 01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:13,680 Speaker 1: one time. This is one of my hotel cable memories. 1049 01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:17,520 Speaker 1: Do you have hotel cable memories from being Yeah, one 1050 01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:20,840 Speaker 1: of mine was we went somewhere we had the hotel 1051 01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:23,360 Speaker 1: channels and I saw an episode of Hammer House of Horror, 1052 01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:26,640 Speaker 1: when I was way too young, and I don't remember 1053 01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:28,920 Speaker 1: much about it except that it was an episode that 1054 01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:33,400 Speaker 1: had a werewolf in it. And then the real twist was, uh, 1055 01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:36,040 Speaker 1: so you think, okay, werewolf, somebody's gonna get you know, 1056 01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:38,360 Speaker 1: bit by the werewolf, gonna get mauled, and that's the 1057 01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:41,600 Speaker 1: real that's the shocker at the end. But instead somebody 1058 01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:45,000 Speaker 1: got killed with an axe in the werewolf episode, just 1059 01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:47,440 Speaker 1: about like a guy with an axe. I wonder if 1060 01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:49,960 Speaker 1: that was the Peter Cushing episode. I think that one 1061 01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:52,880 Speaker 1: involves the animal human hybrids. I don't think it had 1062 01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:55,120 Speaker 1: Peter Cushing because I think I would have recognized him 1063 01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:58,959 Speaker 1: at least from Star Wars. I you know, this whole 1064 01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:00,880 Speaker 1: mention of this episo that it does make me wonder, 1065 01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:06,360 Speaker 1: like what was in the waters too to inspire these 1066 01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:08,600 Speaker 1: other elements. You know, we can point to the Trepid 1067 01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:11,920 Speaker 1: nation influence that would have been a president in the 1068 01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:16,680 Speaker 1: news and so forth. But this idea of of a virus, 1069 01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:20,520 Speaker 1: an evil virus um it reminds me a little bit 1070 01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:24,480 Speaker 1: of the plot of The Creeping Flesh from nineteen seventy three, 1071 01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:27,200 Speaker 1: which had Peter Cushing and Christopher Lee in it, and 1072 01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:31,480 Speaker 1: it involves the development of a serum against evil, the 1073 01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:34,320 Speaker 1: idea that that you could you could that I think 1074 01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:37,640 Speaker 1: Peter Cushing's characters working on developing one and about to 1075 01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:40,400 Speaker 1: have a big breakthrough, like where where did this strange? 1076 01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:43,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it's kind of a you know, 1077 01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:48,080 Speaker 1: a dumb idea in some respect is very uh. It 1078 01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:52,360 Speaker 1: produces the the idea of of evil to something that 1079 01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:53,520 Speaker 1: you know, kind of kind of like getting back to 1080 01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:57,240 Speaker 1: the brainwashing, uh de programming idea that something has been 1081 01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:00,280 Speaker 1: done and it can be undone like that, that evil. 1082 01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:05,280 Speaker 1: It's a broad tent concept and in human civilization, uh 1083 01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:07,840 Speaker 1: that we could find some sort of underlying cause of it, 1084 01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:12,240 Speaker 1: cause behind it and uh and and effectively remove it 1085 01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:14,720 Speaker 1: and everything would be fine. You know, sometimes the dumb 1086 01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:18,040 Speaker 1: idea is a brilliant idea. There's almost something exactly like 1087 01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:21,080 Speaker 1: that in John Carpenter's Prince of Darkness. You know that 1088 01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:24,240 Speaker 1: we have to discover like they discover essentially a jar 1089 01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:28,320 Speaker 1: of Satan. It's like this physical substance or it's not 1090 01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:30,080 Speaker 1: quite it's something I think they call it, like the 1091 01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:33,880 Speaker 1: anti god and there's anti God. Yeah, there's some very 1092 01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:37,960 Speaker 1: loose uh pseudo scientific connections. Actually, well, I mean talking 1093 01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:40,520 Speaker 1: about real physics, but the connections I guess would be 1094 01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:43,160 Speaker 1: the pseudo part where they're saying, oh, yeah, so there's 1095 01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:46,080 Speaker 1: a particle in an anti particle in in modern physics, 1096 01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:48,400 Speaker 1: and so you have the same thing as true, like 1097 01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:50,440 Speaker 1: God is like the particle, and then you've got an 1098 01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:55,280 Speaker 1: anti particle anti God that they come together and they annihilate. Yeah. 1099 01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:59,640 Speaker 1: I agree. There a dumb idea taken too to the limit. 1100 01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:03,240 Speaker 1: You know, you can make it very entertaining, or sometimes 1101 01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:06,480 Speaker 1: a kind of dumb or traditional idea given a new 1102 01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:11,000 Speaker 1: code of paint using um, you know, some current scientific buzzwords, uh, 1103 01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:13,040 Speaker 1: you know, or something from the headlines like that can 1104 01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:15,600 Speaker 1: make all the difference as well, because the basic idea 1105 01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:18,840 Speaker 1: here is like, is a curse idea a contagious curse. 1106 01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:22,080 Speaker 1: Man catches curse from cursed individual and then has to 1107 01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:25,000 Speaker 1: deal with the curse. It's not unlike many werewolf stories, 1108 01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:27,760 Speaker 1: except instead of the curse of turning into a wolf 1109 01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:32,040 Speaker 1: uh and killing people, it's this, uh, this curse of 1110 01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:35,200 Speaker 1: of of these these various more you know, I guess, 1111 01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:41,120 Speaker 1: some more obscure, more mysterious um psychological issues popping up. Yeah, 1112 01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:44,120 Speaker 1: and that ultimately makes it more terrifying because it's these 1113 01:03:44,200 --> 01:03:46,320 Speaker 1: are these are things that that we can point to 1114 01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:48,080 Speaker 1: in the real world that he's suffering, you know, like 1115 01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:51,080 Speaker 1: a sudden obsession over things, uh, you know, a change 1116 01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:54,240 Speaker 1: and behavior consciousness. Well, and in the light of the 1117 01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:57,040 Speaker 1: scientific stuff we were talking about today, I think, I 1118 01:03:57,080 --> 01:03:59,480 Speaker 1: don't know, it sort of invites you to rethink the 1119 01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:02,560 Speaker 1: idea of what a what a virus or infectious agent is. 1120 01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:06,720 Speaker 1: I mean, we naturally think of infectious agents as things 1121 01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:09,400 Speaker 1: that are bad and harmful because I mean usually when 1122 01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:12,280 Speaker 1: it's like it is, uh, you know, a pathogen in 1123 01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:14,480 Speaker 1: the body that is infecting you in order to make 1124 01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:16,760 Speaker 1: copies of itself and it doesn't really care how much, 1125 01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:19,440 Speaker 1: you know, if it makes you miserable or debilitates you 1126 01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:23,000 Speaker 1: someway in the process, that's obviously bad. But there are 1127 01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:27,880 Speaker 1: also these essentially things that function like infectious agents, that 1128 01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:31,240 Speaker 1: have very similar behaviors that are within the body, and 1129 01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:33,840 Speaker 1: they might even be things that make you who you 1130 01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:37,440 Speaker 1: are in a very inextricable way. Yeah, he kind of 1131 01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:39,880 Speaker 1: driving home what you know, to come back around to 1132 01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:42,520 Speaker 1: Heed Young and his work, the idea that you know, 1133 01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:45,280 Speaker 1: we are multitudes. You know that that this idea of 1134 01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:49,000 Speaker 1: there being this single thing and this is what we are. Uh, 1135 01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:53,080 Speaker 1: you know, is obviously fallacy. But then you know when 1136 01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:56,200 Speaker 1: you start looking at like the the organism itself, well, 1137 01:04:56,360 --> 01:04:58,160 Speaker 1: there is the organism, but then they are all the 1138 01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:01,520 Speaker 1: additional organisms within it that make make it up and 1139 01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:06,280 Speaker 1: and influence the ultimate presentation and experience, right, I mean, 1140 01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:09,360 Speaker 1: so you you could make distinctions that are valid distinctions. 1141 01:05:09,400 --> 01:05:10,680 Speaker 1: You can look at a cell in the body and 1142 01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:12,960 Speaker 1: say this is an animal cell, this is a you know, 1143 01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:16,520 Speaker 1: mammalian cell, and then this is a bacterial cell. But 1144 01:05:16,680 --> 01:05:18,840 Speaker 1: in fact, I think he makes a good case that 1145 01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:21,160 Speaker 1: when we think about what we are, it should probably 1146 01:05:21,240 --> 01:05:26,280 Speaker 1: actually include both, Like the bacteria are also us. Yeah. Now, 1147 01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:29,439 Speaker 1: if you're interested in watching Hammer House of Horror, our 1148 01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:32,480 Speaker 1: producers Seth informs us that as of this recording, it 1149 01:05:32,560 --> 01:05:35,840 Speaker 1: is currently available on peacock. Uh. I was looking around 1150 01:05:35,840 --> 01:05:39,080 Speaker 1: and I found it available to to view as a 1151 01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:41,920 Speaker 1: part of a few different streaming packages online, you know, 1152 01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:45,880 Speaker 1: various channels. Uh, so it's it's definitely out there. Um, 1153 01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:48,800 Speaker 1: you know, multiple episodes. This is the only one I've seen, 1154 01:05:49,480 --> 01:05:51,840 Speaker 1: and and I don't have the benefit of your your 1155 01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:56,520 Speaker 1: your hotel cable experience of of watching uh, watching it 1156 01:05:56,560 --> 01:05:59,560 Speaker 1: earlier in life. But but it looks like a really 1157 01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:02,520 Speaker 1: it's a really shows. Let me say, check out the titles, 1158 01:06:02,600 --> 01:06:06,120 Speaker 1: check out the cast members. Uh, there are several of 1159 01:06:06,120 --> 01:06:10,880 Speaker 1: these that look really interesting. Got that classic British crime? Yeah, alright, Well, 1160 01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:12,920 Speaker 1: we'd love to hear from everyone. Of course, do you 1161 01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:16,000 Speaker 1: have favorite episodes of the Hammer, House of Horror, favorite 1162 01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:18,480 Speaker 1: episodes of the nineties Outer Limits series you'd like to 1163 01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:20,880 Speaker 1: chat about with us, We'll let us know. We'd we'd 1164 01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:22,560 Speaker 1: love to hear from you. And of course, if you 1165 01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:26,080 Speaker 1: have thoughts about the scientific or cultural topics that we 1166 01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:29,840 Speaker 1: touched on in these episodes, Um, everything's fair game, right 1167 01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:32,800 Speaker 1: in We've we'd we'd love to discuss it with you. 1168 01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:35,560 Speaker 1: Our core episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind published 1169 01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:38,840 Speaker 1: on Tuesday's and Thursdays. Check them out in the Stuff 1170 01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:41,200 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind podcast feed, and that is where 1171 01:06:41,240 --> 01:06:43,680 Speaker 1: you'll find them wherever you get your podcast. We also 1172 01:06:43,720 --> 01:06:47,160 Speaker 1: have Listener Mail on Monday's, Artifact on Wednesdays, and Weird 1173 01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:50,760 Speaker 1: House Cinema on Friday's Huge Thanks as always to our 1174 01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:54,200 Speaker 1: excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like 1175 01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:56,160 Speaker 1: to get in touch with us with feedback on this 1176 01:06:56,200 --> 01:06:58,760 Speaker 1: episode or any other, to suggest a topic for the future, 1177 01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:01,560 Speaker 1: just to say hello, you can email us at contact 1178 01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:11,680 Speaker 1: at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to 1179 01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:14,200 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For 1180 01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:17,040 Speaker 1: more podcasts for My heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 1181 01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:32,560 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listening to your favorite shows.