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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for Session three seventy one of the

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our

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Speaker 1: conversation after worry from our sponsors.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 3: I'm Tiffany Hall, and I'm on the Therapy for Black

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Speaker 3: Girls podcast. I'm in session today unpacking what it means

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Speaker 3: to to center romance in your life.

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Speaker 1: So many of us have been raised to prioritize romantic

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Speaker 1: partnership and finding the one over anything else, including some

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Speaker 1: of our other long standing platonic relationships. Today we're exploring

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Speaker 1: the idea of decentering romance, a concept you may have

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Speaker 1: seen on your social media feeds, which asks us to

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Speaker 1: explore what it looks like to seek romantic desire without

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Speaker 1: letting it push out the other important relationships in our lives.

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Speaker 1: Joining me for this conversation is licensed marriage and family

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Speaker 1: therapist Tiffany Hall. Tiffany is a coach, speaker, and writer

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Speaker 1: based in the Philadelphia area who's passionate about working with

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Speaker 1: women to understand the roles they play in their relationships

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Speaker 1: and how it impacts who they are. During our conversation,

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Speaker 1: we discussed the fitfalls of making romantic love the censor

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Speaker 1: of your life, how you can still maintain your friendships

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Speaker 1: when dating, and the cultivation of family dynamics that honor

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Speaker 1: non romantic life partners. If something resonates with you while

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Speaker 1: enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media

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Speaker 1: using the hashtag TVG in session or join us over

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Speaker 1: in the sister circles to talk more about the episode.

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Speaker 1: You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls

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Speaker 1: dot Com. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: joining us today, Tiffany.

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Speaker 2: Thank you doctor Joy for having me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm very excited to chat with you about a

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Speaker 1: topic that I feel like has been blowing up all

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Speaker 1: over social media, lots of conversations. I feel like I've

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Speaker 1: seen lots of articles, and so we're here today to

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Speaker 1: talk about desensoring romance. So I wonder if you could

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Speaker 1: just get us started with a definition of what does

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Speaker 1: it mean for us to de sense or romance in

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Speaker 1: our lives?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question. So dissenting romance is really

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Speaker 3: about taking romantic love and romantic relationships out of the

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Speaker 3: center of our lives. In the social hierarchy, especially for women,

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Speaker 3: we tend to focus very heavily on the pursuit and

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Speaker 3: maintenance of romantic relationships, and so dissenting romantic love is

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Speaker 3: really about finding other forms of love to put at

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Speaker 3: the center.

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Speaker 1: Got it? And what kinds of conversations have you been

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Speaker 1: having with clients about this?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Man, there's been a lot of radical acceptance happening.

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Speaker 3: Most of the people that I work with are women,

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Speaker 3: and most people in my personal life who I have

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Speaker 3: my closest intimate relationships with are also with women. So

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Speaker 3: I've been talking with a lot of women about just

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Speaker 3: how much emotional labor is required of them, and a

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Speaker 3: lot of times that labor doesn't always result in fulfillment

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Speaker 3: with satisfaction or even sort of equal amounts of labor.

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Speaker 3: So a lot of when men are feeling like they're

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Speaker 3: giving a lot and not getting much in return, and

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Speaker 3: what they do get in return is usually only good

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Speaker 3: for short term gratification. The companionship, sex, you know, going

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Speaker 3: out on dates, we love that kind of stuff. But

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Speaker 3: you know, a lot of women are looking for a

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Speaker 3: long term partner who has emotional intelligence, who has humility,

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Speaker 3: who has all of the things that we tend to

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Speaker 3: associate with feminine qualities but are not really encouraged in men.

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Speaker 3: So women that are looking for male partners often are

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Speaker 3: not finding partners who are compatible because of that.

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Speaker 1: And when you say radical acceptance, what do you mean.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm in hearing for a lot of women, especially

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Speaker 3: those who are like me in mid to late thirties,

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Speaker 3: who are wanting to have families, who want to get married,

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Speaker 3: and are finding out that perhaps that may not happen

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Speaker 3: for them, and not because they're lacking at all in

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Speaker 3: terms of their own quality. A lot of these women

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Speaker 3: are very intelligent, very accomplished, and have thriving social lives,

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Speaker 3: but when it comes to finding a romantic partner. It

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Speaker 3: just seems like there's a lot of challenges, and so

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Speaker 3: a lot of women are choosing to be single, either

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Speaker 3: permanently or are choosing to find other sort of forms

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Speaker 3: of community, you know, focusing on platonic friendship. I've heard

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Speaker 3: of single moms women in with other single moms and

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Speaker 3: having sort of a family unit based around that. And

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Speaker 3: also there are some people who realize that perhaps their

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Speaker 3: idea of what a happy, fulfilled life may look like

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Speaker 3: is not going to be centered around marriage and family,

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Speaker 3: and that's weird for some people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, so much of our socialization. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: we're going to get into this, but so much of

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Speaker 1: our socialization and like what we've taught, and like it

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Speaker 1: feels like you do all of these steps and like

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Speaker 1: this is supposed to be the last thing to check off.

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Speaker 1: And so it does feel like there is a reckoning

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Speaker 1: with is that something that I really wanted in the

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Speaker 1: first place? And if so, how might I have to

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Speaker 1: grieve the idea that this might not happen exactly.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of grief involved because, yeah, a lot

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Speaker 3: of us, we've been conditioned to want this and to

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Speaker 3: pursue it since we were little girls watching Disney movies

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Speaker 3: and reading fairy tales. So we're thinking, this is what

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Speaker 3: is promised to us, And when you get into adulthood

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Speaker 3: and you start dating and going through all the challenges

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Speaker 3: that come with that, we realize that, yeah, it's not

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Speaker 3: the way they told us it was.

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Speaker 2: Going to be.

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Speaker 1: Got it. So I'm curious, Tiffany, did this become a

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Speaker 1: specialty for you? Just through conversations with your clients, are like,

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Speaker 1: how did this become a real passion and kind of

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Speaker 1: specialty for you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I think this really started to really hit for me

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Speaker 3: in the last i want to say, eighteen months, just

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Speaker 3: through my own personal experience seeing what a lot of

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Speaker 3: my girlfriends were going through, seeing a lot also a

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Speaker 3: lot of women that I work with and my psychotherapy

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Speaker 3: and coaching practices go through, and I was like, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: a lot of women are working hard in order to

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Speaker 3: pursue this, but don't really seem happy once they have it.

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Speaker 3: And I realized that perhaps we're putting too much emphasis

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Speaker 3: on this being the thing that completes our lives. A

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Speaker 3: lot of women are oftentimes finding themselves in situations where

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Speaker 3: they're unhappy or they're experiencing harm and they're holding on

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Speaker 3: because they feel like, this is what I'm supposed to do.

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Speaker 3: I need to have romantic partnership in order for my

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Speaker 3: life to be complete and whole, and that sometimes can

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Speaker 3: cause us to compromise on our standards and our boundaries,

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Speaker 3: and that's when it can get really painful.

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Speaker 1: Tiffany, do you think that this is solely a function

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Speaker 1: of socialization or is there more going on with the

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Speaker 1: priority we tend to have for romantic relationships.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I think it's probably a little bit of nature,

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Speaker 3: a little bit of nurture. Biologically, we are urged to procreate,

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Speaker 3: and so that requires us to seek a mate. But

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Speaker 3: I think where the challenges come is when we put

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Speaker 3: a lot of the focus of the relationship on how

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Speaker 3: we feel about a person and wanting all those romantic

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Speaker 3: feelings that we see in movies, wanting to find our

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Speaker 3: happily ever after, our prints charming, and so that tends

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Speaker 3: to sort of I think up the ante a bit

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Speaker 3: when it comes to the biological component. Yeah, we want

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Speaker 3: to have children, we want to pro create, but also

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Speaker 3: women were supposed to want this grand love story.

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Speaker 2: We want to feel like a princess.

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Speaker 3: Because I know a lot of us grew up, we

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Speaker 3: had maybe a little princess stage, and part of that

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Speaker 3: is wanting to be rescued by a prince and wanting

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Speaker 3: to be saved. And I think that socialization doesn't stop,

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Speaker 3: it continues throughout the lifespan. When we're in middle school

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Speaker 3: and high school, we're thinking about how attractive we are

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Speaker 3: and our bodies are changing, We're thinking about how we

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Speaker 3: look to males and how male attention does provide social currency.

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Speaker 3: And then we get to adulthood and think about even

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Speaker 3: all the media that we consume. I remember growing up

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Speaker 3: in high school watching things like Sex and the City

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Speaker 3: and Girlfriends, and I thought about just how much time

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Speaker 3: they spent just talking about men and relationships, and it

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Speaker 3: just started to feel like that is a thing that

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Speaker 3: women do. We just sit and commiserate over all of

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Speaker 3: our relationship and dating problems. There's nothing else going on

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Speaker 3: in our lives besides that. And it makes me feel

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Speaker 3: like as women were really not encouraged to develop a

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Speaker 3: sense of self. Always about how we can create and

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Speaker 3: nurture relationships with other people, But how about that relationship

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Speaker 3: that we have with ourselves?

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Speaker 2: What about that?

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Speaker 1: And Tiffany, would you say that this is different in

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Speaker 1: queer communities, and like you because I'm thinking about like

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Speaker 1: the developmental stages that you're talking about that women who

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Speaker 1: are attracted to men have. Can you say more about

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Speaker 1: like what that looks like for people who are queer.

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Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, that's a great question. I work with a

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Speaker 3: lot of queer folks, and it's completely different for them.

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Speaker 3: For a lot of queer folks, unfortunately, you know, especially

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Speaker 3: those who are thirties and up, didn't have as much

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Speaker 3: representation and media for what a normal queer relationship was

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Speaker 3: supposed to look like. So a lot of them were

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Speaker 3: kind of figuring it out on their own. But I

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Speaker 3: think that gives them a lot more freedom to not

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Speaker 3: follow the script that we've all kind of have been given.

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Speaker 3: And I've seen a lot of them have again those

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Speaker 3: different sort of family structures. Some of them they may

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Speaker 3: all live in a house together multiple generations, or they

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Speaker 3: have multiple families, and so there's not so much this

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Speaker 3: emphasis on maintaining this traditional nuclear model, which to be honest,

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Speaker 3: doesn't really work for a lot of us black and

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Speaker 3: brown folks. We are historically culturally very communal. Living in

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Speaker 3: these sort of individual families is very much a western

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Speaker 3: and very modern way of looking at family, the whole

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Speaker 3: mom staying at home, dad leaves the house, and there's

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Speaker 3: two point five kids and a dog. Yeah, a lot

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Speaker 3: of families don't look like that, and that was an

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Speaker 3: ideal in the fifties. But we also know what's going on.

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Speaker 3: In the fifties, a lot of black women didn't fit

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Speaker 3: in that. We were still working outside of the home.

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Speaker 3: So a lot of what we're we're seeking in terms

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Speaker 3: of romantic partnership is that nuclear family ideal.

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Speaker 2: That one doesn't.

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Speaker 3: Fit everyone, and economically it's pretty difficult to maintain in

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Speaker 3: these times. So what we're I think going to see

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Speaker 3: is there's going to be a shift in how we

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Speaker 3: look at romance and dating and family in these coming years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I feel like we are already starting. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think that's a part of what we're having this

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Speaker 1: conversation and why you're doing the work that you're doing.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about some of those

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Speaker 1: shifts you already mentioned, moms getting together, creating their own

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Speaker 1: ideas of what family looks like. Can you talk more

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Speaker 1: about some of those things you see.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I do think we're going to see a lot

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Speaker 3: more of those sorts of setups where you have these

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Speaker 3: kind of matriarchal communities where you have women coming together

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Speaker 3: and providing care amongst each other's children. That's something I

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Speaker 3: think a lot of mothers would benefit from. I think

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Speaker 3: we're going to see more people living with non biological

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Speaker 3: family roommates.

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Speaker 2: I know.

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Speaker 3: I work with people who are also in non monogamous

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Speaker 3: and poly relationships, and sometimes they may live with a

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Speaker 3: primary and secondary partner and all of their children. And

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Speaker 3: so I think it's nice to be able to see

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Speaker 3: the different types of family structures because I think the

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Speaker 3: way that we've been taught to sort of idealize this

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Speaker 3: nuclear family, it causes us to feel more isolated. So

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Speaker 3: having more people outside just the romantic context really benefits

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Speaker 3: the community as a whole. But I think a lot

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Speaker 3: of us still want that ideal mom, dad, kids in

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Speaker 3: the house, and that I think is what keeps some

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Speaker 3: people stuck. And not to say that's not impossible to obtain,

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Speaker 3: but it's difficult, and again it could be very isolating

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Speaker 3: for a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about maybe some of

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Speaker 1: the subtle ways we might be centering romantic relationships in

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Speaker 1: our lives without even really recognizing that we're doing it.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's a good question, because we all do this,

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Speaker 3: and you likely will continue to do it because again,

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Speaker 3: this is reinforced pretty much everywhere, just like the social

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Speaker 3: media is a big way we spend a lot of time.

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Speaker 3: You're consuming content about relationships. You know, maybe you're somebody

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Speaker 3: who likes to read a lot of information about dating

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Speaker 3: and romance, focusing so much on finding partners, or even

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Speaker 3: on the other side of that, there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: people who take in resources about I've seen narcissists, narcissistic abuse,

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Speaker 3: and recovering from relationships with narcissists, and so people often

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Speaker 3: think that romantic relationships, I think are something that are

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Speaker 3: supposed to be hard, and there's a lot of support

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Speaker 3: even in the mental health field for recovering from romantic

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Speaker 3: relationships and not in the same way as familial in

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Speaker 3: platonic relationships, which can be just as complex, but we

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Speaker 3: don't provide the same support. We normalize hardship in romantic partnership,

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Speaker 3: and so I think that we may be seeing other

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Speaker 3: types of couples therapy. I've seen some therapists now do

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Speaker 3: something called friendship therapy, which I think is great, and

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Speaker 3: I think that for women, a lot of us have

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Speaker 3: experienced much more fulfillment and stability in our platonic relationships,

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Speaker 3: especially those with other women, than in a lot of

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Speaker 3: our romantic relationships. But we don't put sometimes as much

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Speaker 3: effort into those because we're taught like, the romantic ones

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Speaker 3: are the ones that matter, Right, that's what's going to

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Speaker 3: prove to us that we are worthy human beings. So

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Speaker 3: we put a lot of emphasis there, But again, we

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Speaker 3: don't always get the same reward.

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Speaker 1: Right, Right, That's definitely the case. And I feel like

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Speaker 1: another stereotype that often, it feels like, perpetuates women's relationships.

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Speaker 1: Is this idea that you can fall off the map

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Speaker 1: when you're dating. Right, So, is this understanding of, Okay,

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Speaker 1: there'll be a couple of months where maybe we won't

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Speaker 1: hear from you, and like you kind of are putting

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Speaker 1: all of this investment into a romantic relationship. Can you

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Speaker 1: talk about like how to navigate that with friends? Like

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Speaker 1: what are some tips that you have for like how

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Speaker 1: do you maintain your friendships while you're dating.

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Speaker 3: I'm so glad you brought that up, because that's probably

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Speaker 3: one of the easiest ways to decenter romantic love is

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Speaker 3: to do kind of what you are mentioning. Is when

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Speaker 3: you get into a new relationship, you start dating someone,

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Speaker 3: don't drop your friends. And I know so many women

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Speaker 3: I know at one point I have done this in

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Speaker 3: my past, will get into relationship, go excited about this person,

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Speaker 3: and they forget like you had a whole crew before

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Speaker 3: you met this person. And those are the ones that

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Speaker 3: had to probably still be there after this thing crashes

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Speaker 3: and burns, because we know they're not always going to

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Speaker 3: be permanent. And so I tell people that you can date.

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Speaker 3: There's nothing wrong with dating. You can date and still

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Speaker 3: decenter romance, but still make sure that you're pouring into

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Speaker 3: your life that was already existing. Still spend time with friends,

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Speaker 3: don't cancel on your friends to hang out with your

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Speaker 3: new boot. Make sure that you are fitting this person

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Speaker 3: into your life versus fitting life around this person. And again,

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Speaker 3: I think as women were often encouraged to do that,

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Speaker 3: to abandon our sense of self, our hobbies, our interests,

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Speaker 3: our pre existing relationships to make this romantic relationship work.

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Speaker 3: And I know some people may not want to hear this,

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Speaker 3: but most of these relationships are going to end. They're

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Speaker 3: not all going to lead to marriage, and even those

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Speaker 3: that lead to marriage are not permanent either, So you

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Speaker 3: have to make sure that you are maintaining a life

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Speaker 3: that is separate from that relationship.

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Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, but first a

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Speaker 1: quick snippet of what's coming next week on TVG.

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Speaker 4: I think you can't support someone without understanding them. In

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Speaker 4: order for you to support, you need to understand. So

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Speaker 4: just taking the time out to understand them and even

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Speaker 4: asking them a question like okay, so can you tell

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Speaker 4: me a little bit more about your beliefs? And a

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Speaker 4: lot of Muslims are open to answering questions. I've got

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Speaker 4: a work colleague that literally asks me if you question

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Speaker 4: every single day?

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Speaker 2: So why have you as a hitard? Do you have

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Speaker 2: a home? So what do you eat?

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Speaker 4: And I love it because I know that it's not

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Speaker 4: coming from a place of ignorance, It's just coming from

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Speaker 4: a place of pure understanding. She just wants to understand. So, yeah,

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Speaker 4: take the interest in just understanding your league.

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Speaker 1: What suggestions would you have for somebody who is maybe

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Speaker 1: feeling neglected by a friend who has started putting all

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Speaker 1: of their energy into a romantic relationship, like how might

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Speaker 1: they broach the conversation with the friend? What suggestions would

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Speaker 1: you have?

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Speaker 3: It can be very uncomfortable conversation to have, but likely

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Speaker 3: a necessary one. This is where people can practice good

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Speaker 3: communication and their friendships. And you're gonna have to be honest,

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Speaker 3: honest in a loving, tactful way. Of course, we don't

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Speaker 3: want to approach anybody in acusatory way and.

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Speaker 2: Say you did.

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Speaker 3: That's gonna put them on defense. So I encourage folks

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Speaker 3: if you're feeling neglected by a friend to tell them like, hey,

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Speaker 3: I've noticed we haven't hung out in a while, we

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Speaker 3: haven't talked in a while. I really enjoy spend time

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Speaker 3: with you. It really is important to me that we

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Speaker 3: have quality time. Let them know that you are still

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Speaker 3: a priority in their life and that you want.

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Speaker 2: To spend time with them.

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Speaker 3: So maybe suggests, Hey, why don't we go and grab

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Speaker 3: dinner sometime next week? It's given an invitation that opens

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Speaker 3: the door. And also, if you're feeling hurt or frustrated,

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Speaker 3: or you know, and whatever as a result of feeling neglected,

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Speaker 3: you can be honest about that too. I feel hurt

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Speaker 3: because I feel like you're spending more time with new Boo,

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Speaker 3: and you know, I hardly see you anymore, and that

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Speaker 3: may make this friend not feel good to hear, but

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Speaker 3: that's the way that we build intimacy is being honest

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Speaker 3: about our feelings.

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Speaker 1: In Tiffany, this feels like it ties back to a

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Speaker 1: point you made a little while ago around like all

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Speaker 1: of the resources and conversations we have about how to

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Speaker 1: navigate difficult conversations in romantic relationships, and like it's almost

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Speaker 1: expected that there is this work that happens in romantic relationships,

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Speaker 1: but we don't tend to think about it friendships. And

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Speaker 1: what you're suggesting is that you do sometimes have to

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Speaker 1: have awkward, difficult conversations even with friendship. Can you say

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Speaker 1: more about, like how to unlearn some of those ideas

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Speaker 1: that there doesn't need to be any work in friendships?

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, there's a great book that I just read

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Speaker 3: about this, called Fighting for Our Friendships. That's by Daniel

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Speaker 3: bay Or Jackson, who's a black woman who's also a

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Speaker 3: friendship coach, and she gives some wonderful tips, but she

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Speaker 3: talks about how important it is for us to sort

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Speaker 3: of bring the same expectations that we have with romantic

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Speaker 3: partners because oftentimes we saying, oh, I need someone sort

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Speaker 3: of communicate more, I need them to text me back,

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Speaker 3: and we'll just fall off when it comes to our friends.

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Speaker 3: And that's because I think sometimes we expect our girlfriends

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Speaker 3: to sort of sometimes be low maintenance because we think

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Speaker 3: that we are, you know, and that's not the case.

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Speaker 3: We have to talk and have uncomfortable conversations or we're

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Speaker 3: not going to be able to grow. She also talks

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Speaker 3: about as women, we tend to expect more emotional labor

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Speaker 3: from our friends than we do from our romantic partners,

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Speaker 3: and I think think that can cause a disservice to

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Speaker 3: our friends because sometimes we respect them to do a

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Speaker 3: lot more and be forgiving of a lot more. But

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Speaker 3: also I think as women were often discouraged from handling

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Speaker 3: conflict because we feel like we got to be nice,

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Speaker 3: we have to be agreeable, we have to be good girls,

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Speaker 3: and that sometimes means swallowing our real feelings and not expressing.

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Speaker 3: But with our friends, that should be who you should

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Speaker 3: feel the safest to be honest with, to be your

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Speaker 3: authentic self. So if you feel a little bit apprehensive

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Speaker 3: about having these uncomfortable conversations, just think about the fact

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Speaker 3: that anyone who truly values you in their relationship with

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Speaker 3: you will be willing to listen and receive what you

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Speaker 3: have to say.

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Speaker 2: But if it's uncomfortable and.

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Speaker 3: They may be a little bit mad about it, but

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Speaker 3: that wouldn't be a relationship ender, And if it is,

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Speaker 3: that says a lot about the quality of the friendship

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Speaker 3: as it was. But I highly recommend this book. I

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Speaker 3: think it gives a lot of great tips on how

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Speaker 3: to have difficult conversations and also normalizes the fact that, yeah,

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Speaker 3: we need to be putting the same effort into our friendships.

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Speaker 3: I actually even encourage going to friendship therapy. Yes, something

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Speaker 3: that you feel like you can't work out amongst yourselves,

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Speaker 3: going to a therapist is a great way to get

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Speaker 3: some skills to enhance the quality of friendship. So we

404
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Speaker 3: have to get out of the space of feeling like

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Speaker 3: we have to handle it ourselves. And if we're having

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Speaker 3: conflict in friendship, that's not an indictment on us as people.

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Speaker 3: That's just part of human relationships. There's going to be

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Speaker 3: conflict at times. That's normal.

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Speaker 1: Tiffany, you started this conversation talking about some of the

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Speaker 1: conversations you're having with clients around the emotional labor that

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Speaker 1: it feels like they're doing and it doesn't feel like proportionate,

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Speaker 1: like it doesn't feel reciprocated. But I also hear you

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Speaker 1: saying that we sometimes expect our friends to do more

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Speaker 1: emotional labor. So can you talk about like the converging

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Speaker 1: of those worlds and like what emotional labor even look

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Speaker 1: like in friendships.

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Speaker 3: So the biggest one, and I know I've done this,

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Speaker 3: I've also been on the receiving end of this is

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Speaker 3: when we vent about a stressful relationship, so we want

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Speaker 3: to vent about what he did or didn't do, and

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Speaker 3: sometimes that can happen several times, and again we're often

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Speaker 3: feeling like that's just what women do when they talk

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Speaker 3: on we have out, we can miserate. But also over

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Speaker 3: time listening to that, you're providing emotional labor to someone

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Speaker 3: when you're listening to them vent about all of the

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Speaker 3: challenges in the relationship. And sometimes these things they're venting

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Speaker 3: about are very toxic and sometimes traumatic, So you could

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Speaker 3: also be exposing your friends to vicarious trauma. And the

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Speaker 3: intention often is not to cause harm. When we're doing this,

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Speaker 3: we're basically trying to feel validated. We're trying to get

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Speaker 3: some sort of relief from whatever is causing us some distress,

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Speaker 3: but also have to realize that venting alone needs to

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Speaker 3: have some sort of time limit. At some point it

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Speaker 3: has to go beyond venting and into action, And we

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Speaker 3: can't have our friends be a receptacle for us to

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Speaker 3: keep trauma dumping. We're emotionally dumping when we're not ready

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Speaker 3: to actually take action ourselves. So I encourage women, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's okay to vent about relationship challenges, but also be

439
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 3: mindful about what are you realistically willing to do yourself

440
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,480
Speaker 3: to get beyond those challenges. And if you have to

441
00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 3: keep going to your friends to vent about this relationship,

442
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 3: then perhaps you may want to con or what role

443
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 3: this relationship is playing in your life because you're using

444
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 3: now your friends to cope.

445
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:07,240
Speaker 1: I wonder if you can say more about like the

446
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 1: line between just being a friend, right, because that is

447
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,639
Speaker 1: a part of friendship is kind of being available for

448
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,679
Speaker 1: venting and processing emotions, which I think we tend to

449
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,199
Speaker 1: do a lot as women. But where does it cross

450
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,080
Speaker 1: the line to becoming trauma dumping? Like, how would you.

451
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,919
Speaker 3: Know I just did a TikTok on this recently about

452
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,359
Speaker 3: healthy venting versus trauma dumping, and so, first, healthy venting

453
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 3: is time limited. At some point, you're going to take

454
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,200
Speaker 3: action so that you no longer need to vent, whether

455
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 3: that's going to therapy or doing something else. And also

456
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,640
Speaker 3: be very mindful of the person who's on the receiving end.

457
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 3: Is that person feeling drained. That person may not even

458
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:43,919
Speaker 3: be aware that they're being drained because of the venting.

459
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 3: So trauma dumping tends to have a very harmful effect

460
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 3: on the person who's on the receiving end because they

461
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 3: start to feel drained by listening and also offering advice

462
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 3: often to the person who's venting, and oftentimes that advice

463
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 3: is not taken, and so they have to keep giving advice,

464
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 3: and so there's a cycle with this. The other thing

465
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 3: is too the person that's venting, is how much space

466
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,359
Speaker 3: are they leading for the other person in the conversation

467
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 3: talk about whatever they want to talk about is just

468
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,159
Speaker 3: a conversation or just a monologue. And also is the

469
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,919
Speaker 3: person that's venting, what other steps are they taking in

470
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 3: order to manage this problem? Is venting their only coping skill,

471
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 3: because that could be some signs of codependency or just

472
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,200
Speaker 3: poor coping skills. And so I say that venting is healthy.

473
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,679
Speaker 3: You know, we all need to do that. Sometimes it

474
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 3: can be helpful to have somebody to listen to us

475
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 3: and help us process our feelings and get a different perspective.

476
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,679
Speaker 3: But at some point you have to take that venting

477
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 3: and what you get out of that and turn it

478
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,640
Speaker 3: into action for yourself. That's not always easy to do,

479
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 3: but eventually you need to get there.

480
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 1: So we know that these narratives that have been out

481
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 1: there around you know, romantic relationship kind of being the pinnacle,

482
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 1: these are not things that only straight women have fallen to.

483
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 1: Like we know it pervades all of our minds. And

484
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 1: so I'm thinking about even having conversations with partners about

485
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 1: continuing to prioritize your friends can sometimes be difficult if

486
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 1: they also expect that they are now the most important

487
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 1: person in your life right as opposed to being one

488
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 1: of many important people. So can you talk about one

489
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 1: suggestions for having conversations with romantic partners about the space

490
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 1: they occupy and the space friends occupy, and two any

491
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 1: red flags we should be on the lookout for when

492
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 1: we are navigating those kinds of conversations.

493
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 3: This can be tough too, because a lot of the

494
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 3: dissentering romance talk is new for some people. So this

495
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 3: as a concept, this may not be something that people

496
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 3: are really familiar with, especially men. And then for people

497
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 3: in relationships, you maybe want to talk about this with

498
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 3: their partner. You want to show your partner that you

499
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 3: still love them, that you're not trying to demote them

500
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 3: in some way in your life. There's still this is

501
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 3: important to you. You're just trying to think about how

502
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,719
Speaker 3: you manage your relationships in your life and that you

503
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 3: don't want your romantic partnership to be at the top

504
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 3: of the hierarchy. And that may be hard for some

505
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 3: partners to hear because again, traditionally, how we've been taught

506
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 3: to view romantic partnership, especially in CIS hetero relationships, is

507
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 3: that that's supposed to be at the center and all

508
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 3: your relationships come secondary to that. So that is just

509
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 3: what a lot of us have become accustomed to men, women,

510
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 3: and everyone else. This goes across gender. But if you

511
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 3: have a partner who's willing to talk about these things,

512
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 3: you may want to ask them, what does romantic love

513
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 3: mean to you, what place do you want it to

514
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 3: have in your life and have a dialogue about that

515
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 3: and asking yourself, how do I want this placeship to

516
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 3: fit in my life? Do I want this person to

517
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 3: be a part of all the areas of my life?

518
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 3: Do I want friends and family and this partner to

519
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 3: all be part of my social support together? Because some

520
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 3: people may have different friend groups or different sort of

521
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 3: partner groups that don't intersect, and that's totally fine too,

522
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 3: So thinking about where you want these people to land,

523
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 3: and also thinking about what do you contribute as a

524
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,160
Speaker 3: friend a partner. I know a lot of times we're

525
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 3: looking for friends and partners, we're thinking about what they

526
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 3: can do for us, what they're bringing to the table.

527
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 3: But think about what makes you a good friend, what

528
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 3: makes you a good partner, And a lot of us

529
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 3: to be honest with ourselves about the fact whether or

530
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 3: not we're ready to be the kind of friend or

531
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 3: partner that we want. Because we say we want certain things,

532
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 3: we may not be ready for them. And so this

533
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 3: brings me to the red flags. If you have this

534
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 3: conversation and you notice that your partner or friend you're

535
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 3: getting defensive, which is very normal, especially when we're uncomfortable.

536
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 3: It may be that they're not ready to talk about

537
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 3: this at the moment. They may not be at a

538
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 3: point where they're ready to really explore this, because this

539
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 3: does can vary challenging to our value system. And then

540
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,200
Speaker 3: you have to ask yourself, are you willing to still

541
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,880
Speaker 3: grow this relationship if this person isn't able to meet

542
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 3: you where you're at, Because this is one of the

543
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 3: things that happens with any sort of growth, that whoever

544
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 3: we're in relationship with may not grow at the same

545
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 3: pace as we do, and so that may mean the

546
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 3: relationship has to end or it has to change. And

547
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 3: so if you have to be willing to let people go,

548
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,360
Speaker 3: which is so difficult because we form attachments. But if

549
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 3: you find again, if the people in your life platonic, romantic,

550
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 3: or otherwise are not aligned with your value system, then

551
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 3: maybe trying to let those people go. And that's where

552
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 3: a lot of grief will come in. But grief is

553
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 3: very normal and it's painful, but it's something that you

554
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 3: can recover from.

555
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, you mentioned Tiffany

556
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: this idea that it can be difficult for people to

557
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: have this kind of conversation because of the value system

558
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 1: that they have, and we know values are often shaped

559
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: by like family and religion and spirituality. Can you talk

560
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 1: about how all of those things impact our ability to

561
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 1: decenter romantic relationships.

562
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of nuance to this, and I

563
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 3: will say that there is a certain privilege in decentering

564
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 3: romance for a lot of women, especially.

565
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 2: You know, if you're a woman who has economic.

566
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 3: Resources, it's much easier to not have to rely on

567
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 3: a partner, so you can sort of opt out of

568
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 3: romantic partnership. And we know historically women didn't always have

569
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,199
Speaker 3: this option, always have this option. Just the idea that

570
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 3: we can choose to be single permanently is still a

571
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 3: very modern concept. We're talking about maybe fifty to fifty

572
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 3: years out, and I think that we have to realize

573
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 3: that there's probably generations that preceded us that may think

574
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 3: that this whole concept is really weird. And people they

575
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 3: say it's like this angry feminist thing, and that's okay.

576
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 3: People may not get it, and that is okay. But

577
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 3: I think with the centering romantic love, you have to

578
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 3: realize that's also a marathon and not a sprint. It's

579
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 3: going to be an on going lifestyle adjustment. So it's

580
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 3: not like you do it for a couple of months

581
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 3: and then you're back out in doing things what you

582
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 3: did it before. It's pretty much like, this is how

583
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 3: I'm going to live my life. I'm going to not

584
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 3: have romantic love in dating and sects be the thing

585
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 3: that I center my social life or my life around.

586
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:57,479
Speaker 2: I'm going to do other things.

587
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 3: But that may mean I know, if it's for a

588
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 3: lot of women that I work with, there's a loneliness

589
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 3: in that because they find a lot of the women

590
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 3: that they're friends with center romantic love and they can

591
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 3: no longer relate. That can be very lonely. I get

592
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 3: that I've experienced it. There's a lot of women out

593
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 3: there that may be curious about this but may not

594
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 3: be ready to do it because they don't have the

595
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 3: social support. And so we need more communities where women

596
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 3: are dissenting romance, where they feel like they're not the

597
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 3: odd one out in their friend group because there's more

598
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 3: women who are finding fulfillment and more freedom in this.

599
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 3: But it's scary. It's scary because it's new, it's different, and.

600
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: Are there smaller things that we can be doing to

601
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: decenter romance as well. I mean, you've already talked about

602
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: making sure like all of your conversations with your friends

603
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: don't just focus on like okay, who redating, like what's happening?

604
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: Are the other things that are very practical for people

605
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: to kind of start the steps of de centering romance.

606
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 3: So you're going out with your friends or whatever, You're

607
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,479
Speaker 3: getting all dressed up, you're looking cute. You don't go

608
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 3: out with the intention of trying to meet somebody. Just

609
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 3: go out and have fun. You don't got to worry

610
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 3: about who you might run into or who you might meet.

611
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 3: It's really just about going out and living your life,

612
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 3: regardless of whether or not you find a partner or not.

613
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 3: And the other thing is too, is like I encourage

614
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 3: people to take breaks from social media to dessenter romance.

615
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 3: And the reason why social media is just filled with

616
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 3: so many images that make us feel like we're lacking,

617
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 3: whether that's the ways that are we look, or feeling

618
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 3: like we don't have enough money, or we don't have

619
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 3: the latest designers outfits or whatever. So social media tends

620
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 3: to make us feel like we have to buy more

621
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 3: do more and just have more in order to feel fulfilled.

622
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 3: So taking breaks, whether that's for a day or a

623
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 3: couple of hours, can really make a difference because you're

624
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 3: now one being more present in your offline life, and

625
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 3: you're also not being exposed to other people's lives and

626
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 3: playing the comparison game, because comparison is a very normal

627
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 3: human behavior. But also comparison, how does that quote go?

628
00:30:58,200 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 3: Comparison is a thief of joy?

629
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it really is.

630
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 3: You'll find yourself feeling like, man, I just don't have enough,

631
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 3: because yeah, there's always going to be somebody that has

632
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 3: more than we do of something, but focusing on that

633
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 3: will only make you miserable. Another book that I recommend

634
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 3: it claim out actually at the beginning of this year

635
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 3: is called The Other Significant Others by Rain and Cohen,

636
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 3: and she talks basically about what I was saying about

637
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 3: putting platonic love at the center.

638
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 2: And there's these stories of people who.

639
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 3: Really have chosen their friends more so as life partners,

640
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 3: and they have spousanss and some of them have romantic partners,

641
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 3: but they're platonic friends.

642
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 2: Those are their people.

643
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 3: And I think that book has provided a little bit

644
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 3: of a guide as to what our future can look

645
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 3: like as.

646
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 2: We normalize relationships like this.

647
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 3: We have a ways to go, though, But as we

648
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 3: see repductive rights being shipped away, as we see the

649
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 3: economy continue to be shaky, we're going to have to

650
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 3: find other ways to build community outside of romantic love.

651
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 3: Because romantic love one is not permanent. It's a very

652
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 3: shaky foundation to build any relationship on itself. So women,

653
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 3: we got to stretch beyondest parameters in order to really

654
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,959
Speaker 3: build a well rounded life and support system.

655
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: Who You've talked already about some of the media portrayals

656
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: we see of women like girlfriends and sex and the

657
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 1: city where there tended to be a lot of conversation

658
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 1: around romance and like finding partners of that next stage

659
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: of life. I'm wondering if you can talk about the

660
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: impact that that has on these kinds of conversations around

661
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: these answering romance, and if you feel like there are

662
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 1: media portrayals that have done a better job of kind

663
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: of showing women as more full humans as opposed to

664
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: just kind of seeking romance.

665
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 2: Oh, that's a really good question.

666
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 3: I love that because I love pulling examples from pop

667
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,959
Speaker 3: culture and so Sex and the City is something I've

668
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 3: been rewatching now as an adult because I was actually

669
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 3: I was like in high school when it was airing.

670
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 3: So Carrie and Big was considered to be like the

671
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 3: love story of Sex and the City is so watching

672
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 3: it now as a woman in my late thirties, it's

673
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 3: so horrifying because it's such a toxic dynamic. I've seen

674
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 3: a lot of content now on TikTok analyzing Sex and

675
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 3: the City, and I think a lot of people now realizing, yeah,

676
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 3: a lot of the relationships that were depicted in that show

677
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 3: were trash. They were not really anything to aspire to.

678
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 3: But we didn't have the language and that we do

679
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 3: now about popsic masculinity, about boundaries, all the things that

680
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 3: we talk about now that are more mainstream topics than

681
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 3: they were back in the early two thousands. But in

682
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 3: terms of like healthy relationship examples, I'm trying to think,

683
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 3: you know what, healthy relationships don't seem to be us

684
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 3: entertaining when it comes to media, So a lot of

685
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 3: them don't seem to get the shine. But for some reason,

686
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 3: the show that's come into mind right now was Insecure,

687
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 3: which I was a huge fan of I thought Insecure

688
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 3: did a great job of highlighting how one that relationships

689
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 3: at one point can be thought of as the center

690
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 3: of your life. But I loved how Issa really developed

691
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 3: so much of herself outside of her relationships, and that's

692
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 3: one of the things I appreciate some to the show.

693
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 3: It started out being sort of about her and Lawrence.

694
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 3: By the end of the series, she had become such

695
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 3: a different person, and I really wish we could have

696
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 3: got a spin off of just her journey after that,

697
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 3: but that probably won't happen. But I really just enjoyed

698
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 3: how much that show focused on the relationship between Molly

699
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 3: and Esa and all the other female characters, and it

700
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 3: wasn't just about who Lisa was dating and all the

701
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,399
Speaker 3: ways that men were destroying her life. And I think

702
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 3: that we need more examples of that. I think we're

703
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,839
Speaker 3: starting to see more stories being told that don't have

704
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 3: romance at the center. But again, I still think that

705
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 3: something that a lot of us are still trying to unlearn,

706
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 3: and that doesn't happen overnight. It does also come from

707
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 3: community reinforcement, and we are still receiving messaging from our advertisement,

708
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 3: from media, and from sometimes our own families about the

709
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:51,879
Speaker 3: fact that we need to have a partner in order

710
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 3: it to be whole human beings.

711
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 2: So it's going to take some time.

712
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I definitely would agree with you about insecure.

713
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 1: We definitely covered insecure quite a lot on the podcast here,

714
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 1: but I definitely feel like the true love story and

715
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 1: insecure was among the four women, and even more so

716
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: between Molly and Lisa, Like it felt like at the

717
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,359
Speaker 1: end that's kind of where we came to even though

718
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 1: Issa of course was the main character and we saw

719
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: her development, but I would agree that they did a

720
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 1: great job. Also, I feel like living single even at

721
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 1: a time when you maybe would have expected there to

722
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: be more conversation around dating, and it definitely was a

723
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: fair share of that, especially with regime right, But I

724
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,879
Speaker 1: do feel like living single, we really saw them as

725
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: full humans with the running the business and family concerns.

726
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: I feel like they also did a really good job.

727
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 1: And then the third example I have that came to

728
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 1: mind was Meredith and Yang on Grey's Anatomy, Like I

729
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 1: feel like they were after Sex and the City started,

730
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 1: but it feels like they started like this new you're

731
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: my person kind of thing, and like this idea that

732
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 1: it didn't have to be a romantic partner. Yeah. So

733
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: those are three recent ones or not so recent that

734
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 1: I can think of.

735
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 3: I forgot all about Raison Aadamy because I remember I

736
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:02,399
Speaker 3: was a huge fan of the early seasons of that show,

737
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 3: and that was a little bit after Text in the City.

738
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 3: But yeah, I remember doctor Christina Yang just how much

739
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 3: she wasn't willing to compromise herself and her career for

740
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 3: love and at that time was really something that was

741
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 3: refreshing to see. And I haven't forgotten that about her,

742
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:19,720
Speaker 3: that character.

743
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, she had that famous speech with Meredith because

744
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 1: Meredith strougled more than Christina did with this, and so

745
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 1: she talked about big Dreamy and him not being the

746
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 1: sun like you were actually the son. I just remember

747
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: that quote very vividly. I feel like, now we got

748
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 1: to do a rewatch to go back and watch it.

749
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 2: I do.

750
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 3: That was all, But there's like there's so many seasons

751
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,720
Speaker 3: the grades out. I mean, I'm like probably twenty behind,

752
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 3: but that was they were ahead at their time. So

753
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 3: I think any show that really centers just the power

754
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 3: of intimacy of friendship, because for a lot of us,

755
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,320
Speaker 3: those are some of the more sort of long lasting

756
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 3: relationships that we have, but we tend to sort of

757
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 3: cast those aside when we get our romantic partner, and

758
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 3: we got to make sure we're still nurturing those relationships

759
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:03,760
Speaker 3: whether we're single or partnered.

760
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: So you've already given us two great books, Fighting for

761
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: Our Friendships and the other Significant Other. Are there other

762
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 1: resources that you can think of that would help for

763
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 1: people who are kind of exploring these kinds of conversations,

764
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: So other books, podcasts, websites, like anything else you can

765
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 1: think of.

766
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 3: Yes, there's a podcast by the name of Charlie's Toolbox.

767
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 3: She has a podcast and also Instagram and TikTok by

768
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 3: the same name.

769
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 2: There's resources there.

770
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 3: I also recommend the podcast by the same woman I

771
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 3: mentioned who wrote Fighting for Our Friendships. I believe the

772
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 3: podcast title is Friendship Forward. She's got a lot more

773
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 3: insight about navigating female friendship there, because a lot of

774
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 3: the centering romance is really going to be focusing on

775
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,720
Speaker 3: friendship and really learning how to build up those relationships.

776
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 3: And also I have a website called The Center Romantic

777
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,839
Speaker 3: Love where I have some resources on there. I have

778
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 3: a self paced course. I also have a Bechdale friendly

779
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:57,919
Speaker 3: and media guide for those who may not be aware

780
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 3: if you're looking for media where it's not centered around romance.

781
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 3: I have some suggestions for movies and TV shows and

782
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 3: books to read that pass the Bechdel test. But I

783
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 3: also just encourage people to go back also to and

784
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 3: look over your social media feeds and think about all

785
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 3: the pages that you're following and how much of them

786
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 3: are focused on dating romance relationships. If you're interested in

787
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 3: decentering romantic loves, maybe you want to mute or on

788
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 3: follow some of those pages. That's one small way to

789
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 3: start is consuming less media where that is a focal point.

790
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 3: And I know this is hard too, because there's also

791
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 3: a business behind romantic love. But there's a whole other topic.

792
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,240
Speaker 3: There's so much media coming out now. Love is Blind

793
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 3: and Perfect Match and all of these shows where romantic

794
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 3: love is made into a game and it's entertaining, but

795
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 3: it also perpetually some of the same sort of unhealthy

796
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 3: stereotypes about romantic love. So while those can be fun

797
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 3: to watch because I know I love me some Love

798
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 3: is Blind myself, maybe not watch too much of it.

799
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: You know, perfect Well, we really appreciate you sharing all

800
00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 1: of that with us. Tiffany, please share with us so

801
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: giving us your website, but give us any other websites

802
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 1: that you have and your social media handles so people

803
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: can stay connected.

804
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 2: Yeah.

805
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 3: So you can find me on Instagram at This is

806
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 3: Tiffany Renee. You can also find me on TikTok. I'm

807
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 3: pretty active over there these day.

808
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 2: Same name.

809
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 3: This is Tiffany Renee. You can also visit my website,

810
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 3: the Center Romanticlove dot com. It's also my coaching practice website.

811
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,280
Speaker 3: And if you are in Pennsylvania and you are interested

812
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 3: in seeking psychotherapy services, my practice website is the Mendingspace

813
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 3: Therapy dot com.

814
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 1: We thank you for sharing all of those with us,

815
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: and we will be short to include those in the

816
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: show notes so people can connect with you easily. Thank

817
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 1: you so much for spending so much time with us today.

818
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:38,879
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it.

819
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me, doctor Joy. I'm so happy

820
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 3: you had me on the show.

821
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 2: I'm a fan.

822
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us. I'm so glad Tiffany was

823
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 1: able to join me for this conversation and share her expertise.

824
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 1: To learn more about her and her work, visit the

825
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 1: show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot Com slash Session

826
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 1: three seventy one. Don't forget to text two of your

827
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 1: girls right now and tell them to check out the episode.

828
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,959
Speaker 1: If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit

829
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory.

830
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: And if you want to continue digging into this topic

831
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 1: or just be in community with other sisters, come on

832
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 1: over and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our

833
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 1: cozy corner of the Internet designed just for black women.

834
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: You can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls

835
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 1: dot com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis and

836
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: Zaia Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all

837
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 1: so much for joining me again this week. I look

838
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 1: forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.

839
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: Take good care.

840
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 2: What's