WEBVTT - Reid Hoffman ON: The Entrepreneur’s Mindset & Why What Got You Here Won’t Get You There 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:01.440 You don't really say well, I just want to get 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:03.040 a yes, and it's like, well, you're not going to 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:04.960 just get a yes, especially if you have something that's 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:07.080 bold and original, different, because a bunch of people are 0:00:07.080 --> 0:00:09.159 gonna say, well, I don't get it right, Like, you know, 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:10.920 like I don't get that people will want to buy 0:00:11.039 --> 0:00:13.920 flavored water without sugar. I don't get that. You know, 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:16.119 there's all of these things that we go into on 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:19.120 master's of scale to say. Actually, in fact, sometimes when 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:20.880 you get a bunch of people who say I don't 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:30.680 get it, that's precisely when you have something that's gold. Hey. Everyone, 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:34.120 welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:36.479 in the world. Thanks to each and every single one 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:40.000 of you that come back every week to listen, learn 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:42.520 and grow. Now you know that I don't take your 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:45.479 ears for granted. I'm grateful that you take out so 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:48.560 much time out of your days to listen and learn, 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:51.000 whether you're walking your dog, or you're at the gym, 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:54.000 or whether you're driving to and from work or wherever 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:56.680 you are right now. Thank you for choosing on Purpose. 0:00:57.120 --> 0:01:00.960 And this is a conversation that I've been excited to 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:04.679 have for a very long time. Today, I'm speaking to 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:09.280 none other than Read Hoffman. Now, Read is an accomplished entrepreneur, 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:12.640 and that is an understatement. He's an investor. He has 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:15.800 played an integral role in building many of today's leading 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:18.959 consumer technology businesses. He's, of course, the co founder of 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:22.679 LinkedIn and an investor at Gray Luck. He's the host 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:25.680 of his own podcast, Masters of Scale, So you're going 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:28.600 to see a master at work today, an original podcast 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:32.000 series and the first American media program to commit to 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:35.720 a fifty fifty gender balance for featured guests. He's the 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:38.840 co author of four best selling books, The Startup of You, 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:42.960 The Alliance, Blitz Scaling, and his newest book with the 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:47.880 same name of his podcast, Masters of Scale, Surprising Truths 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:52.440 from the world's most successful entrepreneurs. Read. Welcome to on Purpose, 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:55.400 and thank you for being here. It's great to be here. 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:58.480 I love your show. I've listened to it, you know, 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:02.120 as much as I listened to podcast including my own right, 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:04.640 which is every moment I have time for and if 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:07.920 I had a little bit more commutes outside of the pandemic, 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:11.799 I think my listening to all of these quality podcasts 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:15.520 most centrally yours. That's so kind read, I'm humbled and 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:18.760 I'm touched, and the feeling is mutuo. I love your 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:21.000 podcast too, and that's what I was just thanking you 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:26.000 offline that I'm so grateful that you've synthesized all of 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:29.480 this incredible wisdom from all the phenomenal people you've interviewed 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:33.520 into a book that we can easily look at, read, 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:37.240 skip to chapters, look at challenges, understand stories, and as 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:39.440 we're talking about before, what I love about the book 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:43.120 is that it's the stories, it's the psychology, it's the tips, 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:46.480 it's the insight, it's everything. It's this very three sixty 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:50.200 degree approach. But read, I want to start with your 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:54.519 life not as an entrepreneur, but as an employee and 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:58.160 your first paying job as an editor at a gaming company, 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:01.120 and you also wanted to become a professor, which makes 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:05.480 me think you were gearing up to be an employee 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:09.840 either of a school or an incredible faculty, and of 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:12.840 course you did as a gaming company. When did the 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:18.560 idea of entrepreneurship first spark your intrigue and curiosity and 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:22.480 how much were you already convinced you were going to 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:24.600 be an entrepreneur or were you always thinking you were 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:26.960 going to be an employee. So I don't think the 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:30.200 category of employee or entrepreneur had actually really occurred to me. 0:03:30.320 --> 0:03:32.080 I always think in terms of projects. I always think 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:34.359 in terms of what the work is, what the activity, 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:37.040 what you're building, And I don't think it was until 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:39.360 years later. I don't think it was until years into 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:41.760 LinkedIn that I was like, all right, entrepreneur is the 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:44.720 word that describes the activity that I'm doing. Like it 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:46.920 wasn't really like I'm going to be an entrepreneur, that's 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:48.960 really It was more like what do you build? What 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:51.240 do you fashion? And that was you know, all the 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:53.280 way back to you know, great research. Not that many 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:55.120 people know that I kind of you know, talked my 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:57.200 way into the door of a gaming company when I 0:03:57.200 --> 0:04:00.480 was twelve and then ended up doing some work for them, so, 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:03.120 you know, good research for that. But that was because 0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:05.120 I was interested in fantasy role playing games, you know, 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:07.240 dungeons and dragons, and I was like, this is what 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:08.680 I want to spend my time doing. So I want 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:10.360 to get in that door, and I want to connect 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:12.200 with the people who were doing this. And then you know, 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:14.600 kind of similarly, and then I think I became an 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:19.280 entrepreneur because when I started thinking about the company, the 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:22.560 impact that I wanted to have in the world, the 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:25.000 way that I wanted, the insights that I thought I 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:27.599 had that could be operationalized. You know, it was coming 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:30.240 about from the very earliest days of the Internet, and 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:33.120 with the various earliest days of the internet, was how 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:35.359 do we live in this medium by which all of 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:38.320 us as individuals and as groups were made better off? 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:41.200 And what kind of products can you create there? And 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:43.440 when I looked at kind of like what were the 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:46.680 things I could possibly join, none of them had that 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:49.360 kind of shape of what I wanted to create. And 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:52.400 so that made me an entrepreneur. And I wasn't reluctant, 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:55.719 but I was completely focused on this is the future 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:58.160 that I want to build, and so you know that 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:02.120 naturally more more naturally alligned with entrepreneurship. What I love 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:06.760 about that, reader is that not having these buckets, almost 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:10.080 of thought of saying I have to choose actually helped 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:13.120 you find the right path. And I think often we 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:16.520 put these very binary black and white choices in front 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:18.240 of people and we say, or do you want to 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:20.360 work for someone or do you want to be an entrepreneur, 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:24.279 and in one sense, they're both the wrong questions. It 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:26.599 seems like the right question, as you said, is to 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:29.400 be project focused, is to thinking about what you actually 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:31.760 want to do or what you want to build, and 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:35.240 which home allows you to build that more successfully, which 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:38.080 I think is a brilliant insight. So I really appreciate that. 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:41.920 I wanted to understand, though, when you started your first company, 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:46.600 social Net, could you share with us the mistakes that 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:52.280 you made and which mistakes you don't want our audience 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:56.000 to avoid. I think often the question is well read 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:58.440 like what mistakes should I avoid when I start a company? 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:01.279 I want to ask you the opposite question, what mistakes 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:04.440 would just so integral that you had to make when 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:07.360 you started your first company that you would want other 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:11.400 people to have. It is an absolutely great question, and 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:14.240 one of the kind of I think one thing you 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:16.760 learn about business and entrepreneurship as aphorisms, and I think 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:20.320 one of the aphorisms that's apropos here is I never 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:22.400 learned so much except for maybe between the ages of 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:25.360 two and three when I jumped off the cliff for 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:27.840 my first company, and people obviously, and by the way 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:32.120 I normally advertise here's the landmine you avoid. You know, 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:35.320 here's the tour. But your question is also a really 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:38.680 great one. I would tend to say the mistakes that 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:41.599 I made that I think are still that are integral 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:46.159 to being successful in entrepreneurship. One is jumping off the cliff, 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:48.520 a biased action if you think about it in a 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:51.160 clearheaded way. There's all kinds of things you don't know 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:54.200 before you start a company. I didn't really know I 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:57.360 could never start a company before. Didn't know about financing, 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:01.080 didn't know about what your initial hires would be, didn't 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:03.760 know how to scope a project for the first product release, 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:08.440 didn't know which things were kind of the classic mistakes 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:09.800 now that I think I could have done a little 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:12.040 bit more research on and probably would have been, like 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:14.120 my advice to my younger self would be call a 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:17.320 few people you know, and kind of avoid the obvious mistakes, 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:20.560 so you make the unobvious mistakes. But I think the 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:25.240 predisposition to kind of jumping off the cliff and going 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:28.360 was I think one of the things that was a 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:32.200 central you know, you say, it's like embodies a whole 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:35.160 bunch of mistakes, but you have to make those mistakes, 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:37.720 and you have to know that you're making them. It's 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:40.160 almost like, boy, I know, I'm going to get into 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:42.320 a bunch of fender scrapes and I'm gonna bounce off 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:44.080 the side of the yde way and that kind of thing. 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:46.280 But that's the only path forward, So here we go 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:49.800 and hit the accelerator. Yes, I love that answer. I 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:52.680 think that's that's such a great one because I think 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:56.280 you're so right that if you actually think coherently and 0:07:56.480 --> 0:08:00.520 in an organized way, you wouldn't do what ppreneurs have 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:04.240 had to do, and that becomes your biggest block because 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:06.360 chances are your first swing is not going to be 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:11.120 successful anyway. But knowing that and still going away and 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:13.160 still trying to do that allows you to get over 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:17.760 that hurdle of being very sensible and thinking more responsibly. 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:20.520 So I think that's a brilliant answer. I wanted to 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:24.960 ask you because I think lots of entrepreneurs or people 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:26.840 who want to be entrepreneurs, and we're going to go 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:29.560 through the book through chapters that I found really powerful. 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:31.720 But I wanted to start off by saying you called 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:35.640 your podcast and the book masters of Scale. And as 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:37.720 soon as I heard that title, when I first started 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:40.640 listening to the podcast, I loved it because I always 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:45.760 wanted to be able to spread wisdom at scale but 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:49.400 with intimacy and death, and that was always my fascination 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:52.800 of how could you spread something that was for everyone 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:56.240 but speak to one person and really feel like you're 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:59.440 connected to one person. What is the difference between scaling 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:03.040 and rowing a business and and how you define what 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:06.640 a master of scale is? I think there's it's a 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:10.160 little bit like other important words in concepts in our 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:12.120 human space, like friendship and so forth. It's a little 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:16.680 deliberately amorphous on kind of where that kind of scale 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:19.000 and mastery goes, because we want it to be everything 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:21.720 from you know where the classic things would would think 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:25.520 about is building businesses like LinkedIn or Airbnb or you know, 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:28.880 or Uber or Google or any of these things that 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:33.720 you're that the building these things of industry, redefining society, 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:39.600 redefining hopefully massively improving kinds of things is kind of 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:42.640 the scale that you're targeting for. And mastery is the 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:46.680 mastery of running the the kind of the the slalom 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:50.640 course with minefield and fog and all the rest, which 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:53.360 is this is the thing that matters is getting the scale. 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:55.280 And that's that's what we essentially targeted. It's not just 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:58.439 the entrepreneurs, but executives and employees and people who care 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:02.000 about what these companies are organizations are doing. But we 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:05.959 also hope that the tools will apply in a wide 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:07.760 variety of other things. So you could say, well, I 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:11.080 think the only way of solving climate change is scale technology, 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:15.800 but also the only way of of improving human society 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:19.480 is scale wisdom. So how would you take these tools 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:23.400 and make them available across the entire set to think about, 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:28.120 you know, how do we remake ourselves and our societies, 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:36.080 you know, at the global or at the transnational scale. Yes, absolutely, 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:40.680 And I love that differentiation because just like the word entrepreneur. 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:43.480 I remember I was speaking to a really good friend 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:47.920 of mine who founded class past pile Kadakia, and I 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:51.160 believe she's been on your show actually, and yes, and 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:53.840 I remember speaking to her about that. She was, you know, 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:56.080 she's also a very big fan of the show too, 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:59.480 and she was talking about her definition and entrepreneur is 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:02.600 someone who tries to solve a problem, right, not someone 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:05.280 who starts a business. And she was saying, you know, 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:08.040 you could be selling X or Y or z on 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:10.280 the internet and call it a business and call it 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:12.640 yourself an entrepreneur. But she was saying that entrepreneurs are 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:15.360 really trying to solve a problem. They're addicted and obsessed 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:17.360 with that. And I think, just like that, as you're 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:21.000 defining the difference between growth and scale, that differentiation is 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:25.680 important for us as we start to build our journey 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:29.280 or careers. Now in chapter one, you're talking about getting 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:32.040 Oh sorry, yes, no, let me just add one thing 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:35.040 that piles excellent definition. And her episode was great. I 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:37.439 recommend it to everyone. She was one of the people 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:40.000 I have the like to meet through doing a podcast. 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:42.360 Is that one of the awesome things about us doing 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:44.959 these podcasts is a chance to meet other really interesting people. 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:47.200 An entrepreneur is a person who's solving a problem, but 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:50.840 in particular, she or he is solving a problem where 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:54.760 she doesn't yet have either all the resources or the 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:58.040 knowledge or all of the tool set in order to 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:00.120 do it. So you have to actually inject you like 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:02.080 if you were to say, do I have everything laid 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:03.640 out in front of me in order to solve that problem? 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:05.800 I'm like, for example, I could say for a piece 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:08.760 of word working like I'm gonna make you a bed frame. Lord, 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:10.320 Do I have everything out in front of me? The 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:12.839 answer is, as an entrepreneur, you don't, and you may 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:15.200 not even yet know how. And that's one of the 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:19.040 key things about the entrepreneurial Journey. I love that edition 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:22.320 as well. Yes, building your bedframe from an Ikea box 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:25.000 is not does not count. It's all laid out for you. 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:28.840 I absolutely love that chapter one in the book. And 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:30.640 I always like to give people a little bit of 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:33.040 a taste when we're talking about a book, because my 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:36.120 genuine hope for everyone who's listening and watching wherever you are, 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:38.680 is that you go and grab a copy of this book. 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:41.880 It's going to be my new book that I recommend 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:44.000 to each and every single person who comes to me 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:45.360 and says, you have an idea or I don't know 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:47.520 what to do with it, I don't know where to start. 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:49.520 How do I go about it? This is the book 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:51.560 that I'm going to give them. Or even if you say, yeah, 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:53.760 I don't have an idea, I just I am a 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:55.760 bit curious about all of this. All my friends are 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:58.439 becoming entrepreneurs. I see it all over the world. How 0:12:58.440 --> 0:12:59.760 do I do that? This is the book, I'm going 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:02.560 to be giving to people, so I love to give 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:04.800 people a taste. Now, in chapter one you talk about 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:09.880 getting to know and accepting rejection and hearing nos can 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:15.439 be really draining and really difficult, especially when we've been 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:20.640 trained to expect and want a yes. Now, you mentioned 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:24.880 in the book the contrarian principle, and this is also 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:26.880 one of the principles you mentioned in your other book, 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:29.760 blitz Scaling. So I wanted you to actually describe that 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.360 principle to us and talk about how do we get 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:36.040 used to hearing no, and what is that no really 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:39.800 asking us to do? So the contrarian principle is in 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:45.079 order to achieve something bold, different of scale. Frequently, if 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:47.040 it's an idea that lots and lots of people are had, 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:49.520 it's much harder to get there, whether as an entrepreneur 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:52.839 or an investor, And so you generally want to choose 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:55.600 an idea, choose a path, who's a product or service, whatever, 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:59.480 which is contrarian but right. It's very easy, of course, 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.640 to be control and wrong because there are many there's 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:05.439 many foolish things to do in the world. And so 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:07.480 you go when where a lot of people think that 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:10.400 that might be wrong, but actually, in fact you have 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:13.840 had some insight or you and your team and your colleagues, 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:16.959 your friends have had some insight that you could say, Okay, 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:18.920 this is how we're going to do it now. Part 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:22.280 of how that gets to dealing with nose is say, 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:24.440 for example, and by the way, generally speaking, it's a 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:27.920 good idea you try to convert crises and opportunities. It's 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.960 a precise kind of mindset strengthening exercises and balance and 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:34.720 poise that you go across. You know, a set of 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:38.560 podcasts with on purpose, which is you don't really say well, 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:40.080 I just want to get a yes. And it's like, well, 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:41.920 you're not going to just get a yes, especially if 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:44.120 you have something that's bold and original and different, because 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:45.480 a bunch of people are gonna say, well, I don't 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:47.560 get it right, Like, you know, like I don't get 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:50.160 that people will want to buy flavored water without sugar. 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:52.320 I don't get that. You know, there's all of these 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.880 things that we go into on master's of scale to say, actually, 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:57.520 in fact, sometimes when you get a bunch of people 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:00.320 who say I don't get it, that's precisely you have 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:04.680 something that's gold. Now so the question is, well, how 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:06.040 do you deal with a psychology of it? And the 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:10.520 answer is, well, approach nose not as a rejection of 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:13.160 you or rejection of your idea. A rejection it is 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:15.960 obviously a form of rejection, but where you might be 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:17.960 able to learn something from it, where you might be 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:20.480 able to understand something about the way the world's working. 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:23.960 So if actually, in fact, it's a certain kind of 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:27.280 know where people say, well, everyone knows that you that's 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:30.680 selling flavored water without sugar because everyone wants sugared water 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:34.440 won't work, and you're like, ha ha, maybe I have something. Well, 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:37.440 everybody knows that no stranger is going to rent a 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:40.800 room or an apartment to another stranger. Ah, I may 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:44.120 have something. And so you can bring those nose in 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:47.200 and then part of the categorization that we do within 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:49.360 that first chapter, because that's part of the reason why 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:51.560 you open the book with this, is to give you 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:54.600 a sense of, well, which which way should you responding 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:58.000 to different kinds of nose, Because sometimes it's a no 0:15:58.200 --> 0:15:59.960 and a thoughtful one from an expert that you should 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.320 dig into some understand some of why they think that. 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:08.120 Sometimes it's a no, that's it's a like a stereotype 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:10.080 and just a reflection, and so then you understand that's 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:12.720 a stereotype. Sometimes it's because the person's not engaging, in 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:14.640 which case you should work. You should waste no more 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:18.160 time with this person. And so that's the kind of 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:20.880 thing of treating it as a learning journey, which of 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:24.720 course is fundamental to life, and of course the entrepreneurship 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:30.640 is the way to reorient the mindset in order to 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:34.280 to to say it's not rejection, it's part of the 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:37.280 hero's journey you're on. Yes, yeah, I'm glad you referenced 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:39.920 the hero's journey there as well. And for those of 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:42.320 you that have not read it, Joseph Campbell and and 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:47.200 other writers have spoken beautifully about the hero's journey and 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:51.240 rejection is just such a beautiful part of it when 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:55.520 you look back, and when you, like you said it's psychological. 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:59.520 We think it's specific to the idea or the business. 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:03.440 Actually it's all psychological in hearing no and being rejected 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:07.200 and still finding a way to continue. And I really 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:09.960 really resonate with that insight that you just shared around 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:15.320 how one of our biggest challenges is that we are 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:19.439 trying to get this unanimous yes and unanimous consent, and 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:21.720 you say that in the book, you're just like, you're 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:26.320 actually dubious when there's unanimous consent, because you're thinking to yourself, well, 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:29.080 there must be this can't be good. Then if everyone 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:31.280 agrees with it, then this can't be the right idea. 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:35.120 And I've found that so refreshing because I think we've 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:37.600 been trained to think the other way that if everyone agrees, 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:41.120 you're probably onto something, especially people in power. But if 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:43.800 people in power disagree with you, you're actually saying, well, 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:46.119 there could be something to learn, but there could be 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:49.359 an opportunity here as well. One of the things that 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:51.520 I wanted to ask you about this was is there 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:55.640 something have you been able to in your life as 0:17:55.680 --> 0:18:00.199 an investor applied that or have you sometimes felt that, no, 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:02.280 this is definitely not going to work and then something 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:04.240 became really successful? Right? Has there ever been a time 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:07.000 when you thought, I've thought about this, there's stuff to 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:09.720 think about or have you stopped saying no, Have you 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:14.800 started saying maybe if when? Or do you still say no? Oh? 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:18.040 I definitely still say no. Because the average you know, 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:20.199 kind of a general partner of adventure firm looks at 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:22.280 six hundred to eight hundred deals a year and says 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:25.560 yes to zero to two of them. And now you're 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:29.119 generally speaking almost never will you rarely say no in 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:30.919 a way that's kind of like no, never talk to 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:34.359 me again. That's if someone's kind of just really not 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:36.840 the right fit, right, and it's just like, look, don't 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:38.760 waste your time, to waste my time, this is good. 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:42.480 Frequently you'll say not right now when you try to 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:45.119 partner with people and be good for entrepreneurs. The not 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:47.720 right now may very well be here's some of the 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:50.359 challenges that I have right now, and I hope and 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:52.399 anticipate you're going to be really successful, and maybe a 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:56.080 future path is a time that we will talk about now. 0:18:56.720 --> 0:18:59.720 There's a there's kind of this psychological categorization of false 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:02.160 spot that as false negatives, otherwise known as type one 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:05.240 and type two errors. Very rarely when you're doing things 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:07.760 moving at speed like investing, if you're not making both 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:10.320 type one and type two errors, both false positives and 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:13.880 false negatives, you're not doing the game the right way right, 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:15.960 You're you're being too conservative one way or the other. 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:18.840 So so if you're too too many positives, then you're 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:20.760 not making you know you you then you're making a 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:22.720 set of mistakes and too many negatives. You're making a 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:26.359 mistake and so um. And so for me, when I 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:29.920 kind of look at this as is this kind of 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:33.400 like I think entrepreneurship and investing has this kind of 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:37.159 yin and yang bringing together that yes and the no, 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:40.600 that hey, I could see this vision, but I see 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:42.320 the risks. But I put it together and I make 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:45.000 a decision, and I think that's part of what we 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:48.160 find it to be, you know, kind of super interesting. 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:51.080 And I think that's the that's the way I try 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:54.439 to balance it, which means that frequently I will say no, 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:57.240 although my most often no is trying to be helpful, 0:19:57.560 --> 0:19:59.520 like like being the like you could almost look at 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:02.320 the over the side of the chapter was yes, I 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:04.000 know that I'm saying no, but I'm trying to be 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:07.040 as helpful as I possibly can to this person who's 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:11.400 on this ridiculously hard journey and this is there at 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:14.479 the moment their life's treasured work in so doing. And 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:18.480 so anyway, that's a long kind of tendrild answer to 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:20.399 your question, but I think worth it. No, No, no, 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:22.960 great auntswer I'm really glad that you got in the 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:25.760 weeds there. Read I appreciate it. On the flip side, 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:28.639 read what is what's been one of the most surprising 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:31.760