Speaker 1: You don't really say well, I just want to get
Speaker 1: a yes, and it's like, well, you're not going to
Speaker 1: just get a yes, especially if you have something that's
Speaker 1: bold and original, different, because a bunch of people are
Speaker 1: gonna say, well, I don't get it right, Like, you know,
Speaker 1: like I don't get that people will want to buy
Speaker 1: flavored water without sugar. I don't get that. You know,
Speaker 1: there's all of these things that we go into on
Speaker 1: master's of scale to say. Actually, in fact, sometimes when
Speaker 1: you get a bunch of people who say I don't
Speaker 1: get it, that's precisely when you have something that's gold. Hey. Everyone,
Speaker 1: welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast
Speaker 1: in the world. Thanks to each and every single one
Speaker 1: of you that come back every week to listen, learn
Speaker 1: and grow. Now you know that I don't take your
Speaker 1: ears for granted. I'm grateful that you take out so
Speaker 1: much time out of your days to listen and learn,
Speaker 1: whether you're walking your dog, or you're at the gym,
Speaker 1: or whether you're driving to and from work or wherever
Speaker 1: you are right now. Thank you for choosing on Purpose.
Speaker 1: And this is a conversation that I've been excited to
Speaker 1: have for a very long time. Today, I'm speaking to
Speaker 1: none other than Read Hoffman. Now, Read is an accomplished entrepreneur,
Speaker 1: and that is an understatement. He's an investor. He has
Speaker 1: played an integral role in building many of today's leading
Speaker 1: consumer technology businesses. He's, of course, the co founder of
Speaker 1: LinkedIn and an investor at Gray Luck. He's the host
Speaker 1: of his own podcast, Masters of Scale, So you're going
Speaker 1: to see a master at work today, an original podcast
Speaker 1: series and the first American media program to commit to
Speaker 1: a fifty fifty gender balance for featured guests. He's the
Speaker 1: co author of four best selling books, The Startup of You,
Speaker 1: The Alliance, Blitz Scaling, and his newest book with the
Speaker 1: same name of his podcast, Masters of Scale, Surprising Truths
Speaker 1: from the world's most successful entrepreneurs. Read. Welcome to on Purpose,
Speaker 1: and thank you for being here. It's great to be here.
Speaker 1: I love your show. I've listened to it, you know,
Speaker 1: as much as I listened to podcast including my own right,
Speaker 1: which is every moment I have time for and if
Speaker 1: I had a little bit more commutes outside of the pandemic,
Speaker 1: I think my listening to all of these quality podcasts
Speaker 1: most centrally yours. That's so kind read, I'm humbled and
Speaker 1: I'm touched, and the feeling is mutuo. I love your
Speaker 1: podcast too, and that's what I was just thanking you
Speaker 1: offline that I'm so grateful that you've synthesized all of
Speaker 1: this incredible wisdom from all the phenomenal people you've interviewed
Speaker 1: into a book that we can easily look at, read,
Speaker 1: skip to chapters, look at challenges, understand stories, and as
Speaker 1: we're talking about before, what I love about the book
Speaker 1: is that it's the stories, it's the psychology, it's the tips,
Speaker 1: it's the insight, it's everything. It's this very three sixty
Speaker 1: degree approach. But read, I want to start with your
Speaker 1: life not as an entrepreneur, but as an employee and
Speaker 1: your first paying job as an editor at a gaming company,
Speaker 1: and you also wanted to become a professor, which makes
Speaker 1: me think you were gearing up to be an employee
Speaker 1: either of a school or an incredible faculty, and of
Speaker 1: course you did as a gaming company. When did the
Speaker 1: idea of entrepreneurship first spark your intrigue and curiosity and
Speaker 1: how much were you already convinced you were going to
Speaker 1: be an entrepreneur or were you always thinking you were
Speaker 1: going to be an employee. So I don't think the
Speaker 1: category of employee or entrepreneur had actually really occurred to me.
Speaker 1: I always think in terms of projects. I always think
Speaker 1: in terms of what the work is, what the activity,
Speaker 1: what you're building, And I don't think it was until
Speaker 1: years later. I don't think it was until years into
Speaker 1: LinkedIn that I was like, all right, entrepreneur is the
Speaker 1: word that describes the activity that I'm doing. Like it
Speaker 1: wasn't really like I'm going to be an entrepreneur, that's
Speaker 1: really It was more like what do you build? What
Speaker 1: do you fashion? And that was you know, all the
Speaker 1: way back to you know, great research. Not that many
Speaker 1: people know that I kind of you know, talked my
Speaker 1: way into the door of a gaming company when I
Speaker 1: was twelve and then ended up doing some work for them, so,
Speaker 1: you know, good research for that. But that was because
Speaker 1: I was interested in fantasy role playing games, you know,
Speaker 1: dungeons and dragons, and I was like, this is what
Speaker 1: I want to spend my time doing. So I want
Speaker 1: to get in that door, and I want to connect
Speaker 1: with the people who were doing this. And then you know,
Speaker 1: kind of similarly, and then I think I became an
Speaker 1: entrepreneur because when I started thinking about the company, the
Speaker 1: impact that I wanted to have in the world, the
Speaker 1: way that I wanted, the insights that I thought I
Speaker 1: had that could be operationalized. You know, it was coming
Speaker 1: about from the very earliest days of the Internet, and
Speaker 1: with the various earliest days of the internet, was how
Speaker 1: do we live in this medium by which all of
Speaker 1: us as individuals and as groups were made better off?
Speaker 1: And what kind of products can you create there? And
Speaker 1: when I looked at kind of like what were the
Speaker 1: things I could possibly join, none of them had that
Speaker 1: kind of shape of what I wanted to create. And
Speaker 1: so that made me an entrepreneur. And I wasn't reluctant,
Speaker 1: but I was completely focused on this is the future
Speaker 1: that I want to build, and so you know that
Speaker 1: naturally more more naturally alligned with entrepreneurship. What I love
Speaker 1: about that, reader is that not having these buckets, almost
Speaker 1: of thought of saying I have to choose actually helped
Speaker 1: you find the right path. And I think often we
Speaker 1: put these very binary black and white choices in front
Speaker 1: of people and we say, or do you want to
Speaker 1: work for someone or do you want to be an entrepreneur,
Speaker 1: and in one sense, they're both the wrong questions. It
Speaker 1: seems like the right question, as you said, is to
Speaker 1: be project focused, is to thinking about what you actually
Speaker 1: want to do or what you want to build, and
Speaker 1: which home allows you to build that more successfully, which
Speaker 1: I think is a brilliant insight. So I really appreciate that.
Speaker 1: I wanted to understand, though, when you started your first company,
Speaker 1: social Net, could you share with us the mistakes that
Speaker 1: you made and which mistakes you don't want our audience
Speaker 1: to avoid. I think often the question is well read
Speaker 1: like what mistakes should I avoid when I start a company?
Speaker 1: I want to ask you the opposite question, what mistakes
Speaker 1: would just so integral that you had to make when
Speaker 1: you started your first company that you would want other
Speaker 1: people to have. It is an absolutely great question, and
Speaker 1: one of the kind of I think one thing you
Speaker 1: learn about business and entrepreneurship as aphorisms, and I think
Speaker 1: one of the aphorisms that's apropos here is I never
Speaker 1: learned so much except for maybe between the ages of
Speaker 1: two and three when I jumped off the cliff for
Speaker 1: my first company, and people obviously, and by the way
Speaker 1: I normally advertise here's the landmine you avoid. You know,
Speaker 1: here's the tour. But your question is also a really
Speaker 1: great one. I would tend to say the mistakes that
Speaker 1: I made that I think are still that are integral
Speaker 1: to being successful in entrepreneurship. One is jumping off the cliff,
Speaker 1: a biased action if you think about it in a
Speaker 1: clearheaded way. There's all kinds of things you don't know
Speaker 1: before you start a company. I didn't really know I
Speaker 1: could never start a company before. Didn't know about financing,
Speaker 1: didn't know about what your initial hires would be, didn't
Speaker 1: know how to scope a project for the first product release,
Speaker 1: didn't know which things were kind of the classic mistakes
Speaker 1: now that I think I could have done a little
Speaker 1: bit more research on and probably would have been, like
Speaker 1: my advice to my younger self would be call a
Speaker 1: few people you know, and kind of avoid the obvious mistakes,
Speaker 1: so you make the unobvious mistakes. But I think the
Speaker 1: predisposition to kind of jumping off the cliff and going
Speaker 1: was I think one of the things that was a
Speaker 1: central you know, you say, it's like embodies a whole
Speaker 1: bunch of mistakes, but you have to make those mistakes,
Speaker 1: and you have to know that you're making them. It's
Speaker 1: almost like, boy, I know, I'm going to get into
Speaker 1: a bunch of fender scrapes and I'm gonna bounce off
Speaker 1: the side of the yde way and that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: But that's the only path forward, So here we go
Speaker 1: and hit the accelerator. Yes, I love that answer. I
Speaker 1: think that's that's such a great one because I think
Speaker 1: you're so right that if you actually think coherently and
Speaker 1: in an organized way, you wouldn't do what ppreneurs have
Speaker 1: had to do, and that becomes your biggest block because
Speaker 1: chances are your first swing is not going to be
Speaker 1: successful anyway. But knowing that and still going away and
Speaker 1: still trying to do that allows you to get over
Speaker 1: that hurdle of being very sensible and thinking more responsibly.
Speaker 1: So I think that's a brilliant answer. I wanted to
Speaker 1: ask you because I think lots of entrepreneurs or people
Speaker 1: who want to be entrepreneurs, and we're going to go
Speaker 1: through the book through chapters that I found really powerful.
Speaker 1: But I wanted to start off by saying you called
Speaker 1: your podcast and the book masters of Scale. And as
Speaker 1: soon as I heard that title, when I first started
Speaker 1: listening to the podcast, I loved it because I always
Speaker 1: wanted to be able to spread wisdom at scale but
Speaker 1: with intimacy and death, and that was always my fascination
Speaker 1: of how could you spread something that was for everyone
Speaker 1: but speak to one person and really feel like you're
Speaker 1: connected to one person. What is the difference between scaling
Speaker 1: and rowing a business and and how you define what
Speaker 1: a master of scale is? I think there's it's a
Speaker 1: little bit like other important words in concepts in our
Speaker 1: human space, like friendship and so forth. It's a little
Speaker 1: deliberately amorphous on kind of where that kind of scale
Speaker 1: and mastery goes, because we want it to be everything
Speaker 1: from you know where the classic things would would think
Speaker 1: about is building businesses like LinkedIn or Airbnb or you know,
Speaker 1: or Uber or Google or any of these things that
Speaker 1: you're that the building these things of industry, redefining society,
Speaker 1: redefining hopefully massively improving kinds of things is kind of
Speaker 1: the scale that you're targeting for. And mastery is the
Speaker 1: mastery of running the the kind of the the slalom
Speaker 1: course with minefield and fog and all the rest, which
Speaker 1: is this is the thing that matters is getting the scale.
Speaker 1: And that's that's what we essentially targeted. It's not just
Speaker 1: the entrepreneurs, but executives and employees and people who care
Speaker 1: about what these companies are organizations are doing. But we
Speaker 1: also hope that the tools will apply in a wide
Speaker 1: variety of other things. So you could say, well, I
Speaker 1: think the only way of solving climate change is scale technology,
Speaker 1: but also the only way of of improving human society
Speaker 1: is scale wisdom. So how would you take these tools
Speaker 1: and make them available across the entire set to think about,
Speaker 1: you know, how do we remake ourselves and our societies,
Speaker 1: you know, at the global or at the transnational scale. Yes, absolutely,
Speaker 1: And I love that differentiation because just like the word entrepreneur.
Speaker 1: I remember I was speaking to a really good friend
Speaker 1: of mine who founded class past pile Kadakia, and I
Speaker 1: believe she's been on your show actually, and yes, and
Speaker 1: I remember speaking to her about that. She was, you know,
Speaker 1: she's also a very big fan of the show too,
Speaker 1: and she was talking about her definition and entrepreneur is
Speaker 1: someone who tries to solve a problem, right, not someone
Speaker 1: who starts a business. And she was saying, you know,
Speaker 1: you could be selling X or Y or z on
Speaker 1: the internet and call it a business and call it
Speaker 1: yourself an entrepreneur. But she was saying that entrepreneurs are
Speaker 1: really trying to solve a problem. They're addicted and obsessed
Speaker 1: with that. And I think, just like that, as you're
Speaker 1: defining the difference between growth and scale, that differentiation is
Speaker 1: important for us as we start to build our journey
Speaker 1: or careers. Now in chapter one, you're talking about getting
Speaker 1: Oh sorry, yes, no, let me just add one thing
Speaker 1: that piles excellent definition. And her episode was great. I
Speaker 1: recommend it to everyone. She was one of the people
Speaker 1: I have the like to meet through doing a podcast.
Speaker 1: Is that one of the awesome things about us doing
Speaker 1: these podcasts is a chance to meet other really interesting people.
Speaker 1: An entrepreneur is a person who's solving a problem, but
Speaker 1: in particular, she or he is solving a problem where
Speaker 1: she doesn't yet have either all the resources or the
Speaker 1: knowledge or all of the tool set in order to
Speaker 1: do it. So you have to actually inject you like
Speaker 1: if you were to say, do I have everything laid
Speaker 1: out in front of me in order to solve that problem?
Speaker 1: I'm like, for example, I could say for a piece
Speaker 1: of word working like I'm gonna make you a bed frame. Lord,
Speaker 1: Do I have everything out in front of me? The
Speaker 1: answer is, as an entrepreneur, you don't, and you may
Speaker 1: not even yet know how. And that's one of the
Speaker 1: key things about the entrepreneurial Journey. I love that edition
Speaker 1: as well. Yes, building your bedframe from an Ikea box
Speaker 1: is not does not count. It's all laid out for you.
Speaker 1: I absolutely love that chapter one in the book. And
Speaker 1: I always like to give people a little bit of
Speaker 1: a taste when we're talking about a book, because my
Speaker 1: genuine hope for everyone who's listening and watching wherever you are,
Speaker 1: is that you go and grab a copy of this book.
Speaker 1: It's going to be my new book that I recommend
Speaker 1: to each and every single person who comes to me
Speaker 1: and says, you have an idea or I don't know
Speaker 1: what to do with it, I don't know where to start.
Speaker 1: How do I go about it? This is the book
Speaker 1: that I'm going to give them. Or even if you say, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't have an idea, I just I am a
Speaker 1: bit curious about all of this. All my friends are
Speaker 1: becoming entrepreneurs. I see it all over the world. How
Speaker 1: do I do that? This is the book, I'm going
Speaker 1: to be giving to people, so I love to give
Speaker 1: people a taste. Now, in chapter one you talk about
Speaker 1: getting to know and accepting rejection and hearing nos can
Speaker 1: be really draining and really difficult, especially when we've been
Speaker 1: trained to expect and want a yes. Now, you mentioned
Speaker 1: in the book the contrarian principle, and this is also
Speaker 1: one of the principles you mentioned in your other book,
Speaker 1: blitz Scaling. So I wanted you to actually describe that
Speaker 1: principle to us and talk about how do we get
Speaker 1: used to hearing no, and what is that no really
Speaker 1: asking us to do? So the contrarian principle is in
Speaker 1: order to achieve something bold, different of scale. Frequently, if
Speaker 1: it's an idea that lots and lots of people are had,
Speaker 1: it's much harder to get there, whether as an entrepreneur
Speaker 1: or an investor, And so you generally want to choose
Speaker 1: an idea, choose a path, who's a product or service, whatever,
Speaker 1: which is contrarian but right. It's very easy, of course,
Speaker 1: to be control and wrong because there are many there's
Speaker 1: many foolish things to do in the world. And so
Speaker 1: you go when where a lot of people think that
Speaker 1: that might be wrong, but actually, in fact you have
Speaker 1: had some insight or you and your team and your colleagues,
Speaker 1: your friends have had some insight that you could say, Okay,
Speaker 1: this is how we're going to do it now. Part
Speaker 1: of how that gets to dealing with nose is say,
Speaker 1: for example, and by the way, generally speaking, it's a
Speaker 1: good idea you try to convert crises and opportunities. It's
Speaker 1: a precise kind of mindset strengthening exercises and balance and
Speaker 1: poise that you go across. You know, a set of
Speaker 1: podcasts with on purpose, which is you don't really say well,
Speaker 1: I just want to get a yes. And it's like, well,
Speaker 1: you're not going to just get a yes, especially if
Speaker 1: you have something that's bold and original and different, because
Speaker 1: a bunch of people are gonna say, well, I don't
Speaker 1: get it right, Like, you know, like I don't get
Speaker 1: that people will want to buy flavored water without sugar.
Speaker 1: I don't get that. You know, there's all of these
Speaker 1: things that we go into on master's of scale to say, actually,
Speaker 1: in fact, sometimes when you get a bunch of people
Speaker 1: who say I don't get it, that's precisely you have
Speaker 1: something that's gold. Now so the question is, well, how
Speaker 1: do you deal with a psychology of it? And the
Speaker 1: answer is, well, approach nose not as a rejection of
Speaker 1: you or rejection of your idea. A rejection it is
Speaker 1: obviously a form of rejection, but where you might be
Speaker 1: able to learn something from it, where you might be
Speaker 1: able to understand something about the way the world's working.
Speaker 1: So if actually, in fact, it's a certain kind of
Speaker 1: know where people say, well, everyone knows that you that's
Speaker 1: selling flavored water without sugar because everyone wants sugared water
Speaker 1: won't work, and you're like, ha ha, maybe I have something. Well,
Speaker 1: everybody knows that no stranger is going to rent a
Speaker 1: room or an apartment to another stranger. Ah, I may
Speaker 1: have something. And so you can bring those nose in
Speaker 1: and then part of the categorization that we do within
Speaker 1: that first chapter, because that's part of the reason why
Speaker 1: you open the book with this, is to give you
Speaker 1: a sense of, well, which which way should you responding
Speaker 1: to different kinds of nose, Because sometimes it's a no
Speaker 1: and a thoughtful one from an expert that you should
Speaker 1: dig into some understand some of why they think that.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's a no, that's it's a like a stereotype
Speaker 1: and just a reflection, and so then you understand that's
Speaker 1: a stereotype. Sometimes it's because the person's not engaging, in
Speaker 1: which case you should work. You should waste no more
Speaker 1: time with this person. And so that's the kind of
Speaker 1: thing of treating it as a learning journey, which of
Speaker 1: course is fundamental to life, and of course the entrepreneurship
Speaker 1: is the way to reorient the mindset in order to
Speaker 1: to to say it's not rejection, it's part of the
Speaker 1: hero's journey you're on. Yes, yeah, I'm glad you referenced
Speaker 1: the hero's journey there as well. And for those of
Speaker 1: you that have not read it, Joseph Campbell and and
Speaker 1: other writers have spoken beautifully about the hero's journey and
Speaker 1: rejection is just such a beautiful part of it when
Speaker 1: you look back, and when you, like you said it's psychological.
Speaker 1: We think it's specific to the idea or the business.
Speaker 1: Actually it's all psychological in hearing no and being rejected
Speaker 1: and still finding a way to continue. And I really
Speaker 1: really resonate with that insight that you just shared around
Speaker 1: how one of our biggest challenges is that we are
Speaker 1: trying to get this unanimous yes and unanimous consent, and
Speaker 1: you say that in the book, you're just like, you're
Speaker 1: actually dubious when there's unanimous consent, because you're thinking to yourself, well,
Speaker 1: there must be this can't be good. Then if everyone
Speaker 1: agrees with it, then this can't be the right idea.
Speaker 1: And I've found that so refreshing because I think we've
Speaker 1: been trained to think the other way that if everyone agrees,
Speaker 1: you're probably onto something, especially people in power. But if
Speaker 1: people in power disagree with you, you're actually saying, well,
Speaker 1: there could be something to learn, but there could be
Speaker 1: an opportunity here as well. One of the things that
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about this was is there
Speaker 1: something have you been able to in your life as
Speaker 1: an investor applied that or have you sometimes felt that, no,
Speaker 1: this is definitely not going to work and then something
Speaker 1: became really successful? Right? Has there ever been a time
Speaker 1: when you thought, I've thought about this, there's stuff to
Speaker 1: think about or have you stopped saying no, Have you
Speaker 1: started saying maybe if when? Or do you still say no? Oh?
Speaker 1: I definitely still say no. Because the average you know,
Speaker 1: kind of a general partner of adventure firm looks at
Speaker 1: six hundred to eight hundred deals a year and says
Speaker 1: yes to zero to two of them. And now you're
Speaker 1: generally speaking almost never will you rarely say no in
Speaker 1: a way that's kind of like no, never talk to
Speaker 1: me again. That's if someone's kind of just really not
Speaker 1: the right fit, right, and it's just like, look, don't
Speaker 1: waste your time, to waste my time, this is good.
Speaker 1: Frequently you'll say not right now when you try to
Speaker 1: partner with people and be good for entrepreneurs. The not
Speaker 1: right now may very well be here's some of the
Speaker 1: challenges that I have right now, and I hope and
Speaker 1: anticipate you're going to be really successful, and maybe a
Speaker 1: future path is a time that we will talk about now.
Speaker 1: There's a there's kind of this psychological categorization of false
Speaker 1: spot that as false negatives, otherwise known as type one
Speaker 1: and type two errors. Very rarely when you're doing things
Speaker 1: moving at speed like investing, if you're not making both
Speaker 1: type one and type two errors, both false positives and
Speaker 1: false negatives, you're not doing the game the right way right,
Speaker 1: You're you're being too conservative one way or the other.
Speaker 1: So so if you're too too many positives, then you're
Speaker 1: not making you know you you then you're making a
Speaker 1: set of mistakes and too many negatives. You're making a
Speaker 1: mistake and so um. And so for me, when I
Speaker 1: kind of look at this as is this kind of
Speaker 1: like I think entrepreneurship and investing has this kind of
Speaker 1: yin and yang bringing together that yes and the no,
Speaker 1: that hey, I could see this vision, but I see
Speaker 1: the risks. But I put it together and I make
Speaker 1: a decision, and I think that's part of what we
Speaker 1: find it to be, you know, kind of super interesting.
Speaker 1: And I think that's the that's the way I try
Speaker 1: to balance it, which means that frequently I will say no,
Speaker 1: although my most often no is trying to be helpful,
Speaker 1: like like being the like you could almost look at
Speaker 1: the over the side of the chapter was yes, I
Speaker 1: know that I'm saying no, but I'm trying to be
Speaker 1: as helpful as I possibly can to this person who's
Speaker 1: on this ridiculously hard journey and this is there at
Speaker 1: the moment their life's treasured work in so doing. And
Speaker 1: so anyway, that's a long kind of tendrild answer to
Speaker 1: your question, but I think worth it. No, No, no,
Speaker 1: great auntswer I'm really glad that you got in the
Speaker 1: weeds there. Read I appreciate it. On the flip side,
Speaker 1: read what is what's been one of the most surprising
Speaker 1: yes is that you've given or you've seen in investing
Speaker 1: of a company that we may or may not recognize.
Speaker 1: But what has been the most surprising yes you've ever seen?
Speaker 1: Heard of? Given yourself that Maybe again, if you looked
Speaker 1: at it coherently, you would have been like, hmm, it
Speaker 1: was actually more intuitive. It was more a feeling, it
Speaker 1: was more an experience. It was more just a gut
Speaker 1: Has that ever happened? Do you see that? Well? Definitely,
Speaker 1: because both as entrepreneurs and as investors, when you're at
Speaker 1: the earliest stages the seed the series A, it's a
Speaker 1: vision where you don't know how to get from here
Speaker 1: to there, right you You you've got a theory of
Speaker 1: the game, but you don't actually know how to get there,
Speaker 1: and so and so frequently every yes involves a leap
Speaker 1: of faith, involves a look, I think this entrepreneur, you
Speaker 1: know she or he, this team, this idea, this time,
Speaker 1: this technology, Yeah, I think they could get there. And
Speaker 1: so every yes has a little bit of that characteristic
Speaker 1: At these very early stage kind of judgments. Perhaps the
Speaker 1: funniest one was Airbnb, which my very very first investment
Speaker 1: that I brought to Greylock. And it was at Greylock
Speaker 1: because David z who was my partner at Greylock, was
Speaker 1: my most valuable board member at LinkedIn, you know, kind
Speaker 1: of like converts, convinced me to come join Greylock. And
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, great, and I have a great
Speaker 1: culture of partner with entrepreneurs and and feeling like you're
Speaker 1: the invited partner versus you know, the you know, big
Speaker 1: man on campus as kind of a way of collaborating
Speaker 1: with entrepreneurs. And so I bring an Airbnb and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: I think this is really interesting, and and Vid looks
Speaker 1: at me across the partnership table and says, well, every
Speaker 1: venture capitalist has to have a deal that they fail
Speaker 1: on that they learn from, and Airbnb can be yours.
Speaker 1: And so here is this storied, amazing venture investor going oh,
Speaker 1: this is a complete idiotic idea, but go ahead, right
Speaker 1: and so and I thought about it. Now it wasn't
Speaker 1: so much the intuitive part of the question, but I
Speaker 1: thought about it, and I thought really hard, and I went,
Speaker 1: you know, I still think it's worth doing. So he's
Speaker 1: given me permission to do it, so I'm gonna go
Speaker 1: do it right. And by the way, to David's credit
Speaker 1: because he's a learner as well. Six months later, no
Speaker 1: change in the data and else. He came to me
Speaker 1: and said, you were totally right to make this investment.
Speaker 1: What did you see that I didn't see? And I said, well,
Speaker 1: you were right. Cities could react. It's a strange experience.
Speaker 1: You know, hotel lobbies are going to react all of
Speaker 1: the stuff. The question is is if they had a
Speaker 1: good plan on all this stuff, and the world they
Speaker 1: were building toward was the world we should be living in,
Speaker 1: and if they could navigate through those landlines, it would
Speaker 1: be amazing. And so he was like, oh, okay, got
Speaker 1: it right, and then you know, off to a more
Speaker 1: contrarian but seeking to be right investments. Yes, I love that,
Speaker 1: and I love that question that he asked you, like,
Speaker 1: what did you see that I didn't see? I mean
Speaker 1: that that is such a cumulative wisdom opportunity if you're
Speaker 1: if you're always asking that question when you get something
Speaker 1: wrong or make a mistake, or someone gets something right.
Speaker 1: I mean the way that that can accelerate your learning
Speaker 1: and knowledges is absolutely huge, absolutely beautiful. I love that
Speaker 1: Chapter two is called do things that don't scale? Do
Speaker 1: things that don't scale, which, again, you're you're just playing
Speaker 1: with us. Read you're completely playing with us. I'm like
Speaker 1: reading a book called Masters of Scale. You're now telling
Speaker 1: us things do things that don't scale? What do you
Speaker 1: think most startups do wrong in the early stages of
Speaker 1: their business? What are the biggest mistakes? That question we
Speaker 1: were going to be talking for the next three weeks,
Speaker 1: because there are many men any ways to fail. It's
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why I mastered the scale. We
Speaker 1: try to go, here's an interesting pattern to possibly navigating
Speaker 1: the minefield. Here's an interesting pattern, here's a good sensor,
Speaker 1: you know, you know, kind of concepts for doing this.
Speaker 1: Part of the reason why we put this in is
Speaker 1: because the natural thing and everyone goes, okay, I got it,
Speaker 1: scales religion, I'm only going to do things at scale,
Speaker 1: and you actually, in fact say, well, actually, every successful
Speaker 1: entrepreneurial venture, all of these things that have gotten a scale,
Speaker 1: have done a set of things along the path that
Speaker 1: we're essential to succeeding that we're not themselves scale activities,
Speaker 1: and so people might buy into the religion too blindly.
Speaker 1: And you actually said, look, I know that I only
Speaker 1: succeed when I really get to the scale, whether it's
Speaker 1: the business or climate change or wisdom. But if I
Speaker 1: don't do some things that are kind of experimenting with
Speaker 1: product market fit, taking some experiment and innovation, whether it's
Speaker 1: an organization or go to market, you know, the organization
Speaker 1: of how you run or go to market. If I'm
Speaker 1: not doing some of that, I may miss that critical
Speaker 1: path that unlocks the journey to magic at scale, the
Speaker 1: journey to how this really works in transforming the world
Speaker 1: in society we're living in. And so there's a whole
Speaker 1: set of different kinds of techniques where you go, well,
Speaker 1: that one scale, so we're never going to do It's like, well, look,
Speaker 1: if you think it's really important, experiment with it, see
Speaker 1: what's doable, and then you go, wow, it's really important. Okay,
Speaker 1: so what version of this might I be able to scale?
Speaker 1: And that's that's that's essentially the through line through the chapter,
Speaker 1: which of course opens with you know Bryan Chusky Airbnb again, Yes, absolutely, yeah, No,
Speaker 1: I think that that again is a really significant note
Speaker 1: because it's it's so easy to just get lost in
Speaker 1: the numbers, and I really feel that it's it's even
Speaker 1: with the work I do, I found that ultimately, can
Speaker 1: you help one person have an incredible experience? And when
Speaker 1: you can do that for one person, you get trusted
Speaker 1: to do at ten and then hot thousand, and then
Speaker 1: one hundred thousand and a million and a billion, whatever
Speaker 1: it may be. It's the idea of like, I really
Speaker 1: feel like being able to give one person a unique
Speaker 1: experience and under you just learned so much about that,
Speaker 1: and you learned so I know that any any founders
Speaker 1: that I know, they say, you know, they spend all
Speaker 1: their time looking at customer service in the beginning to
Speaker 1: try and figure out, like what part of the journey
Speaker 1: were people not truly feeling was working or was flowing
Speaker 1: for them. There's such an attention to detail there which
Speaker 1: is often ignored when it's like, oh, we've got this
Speaker 1: many stales already, do you know, could you give any examples,
Speaker 1: and again you don't need to name names, Read of
Speaker 1: any companies that actually started off right but maybe didn't
Speaker 1: apply some of this wisdom and you saw them fall
Speaker 1: laugh and again I'm not trying to point fingers or
Speaker 1: name names. I'm trying to understand more that have you
Speaker 1: seen that where it looks like everything's going great, but
Speaker 1: then there's something that is an external but internal that
Speaker 1: breaks down. Well, there's a number and there some degree
Speaker 1: any of the ones that were super once upon a
Speaker 1: time and then went away web van or you know
Speaker 1: kind of all advantage or an early stearch engines excite
Speaker 1: or kind of excited home. There's there's all of these
Speaker 1: things that said, look, something broke along that path to scale.
Speaker 1: There's also ones that and like also failed to get
Speaker 1: to scale. There are those patterns as well, and so
Speaker 1: it's a whole set of things where you know, part
Speaker 1: of the journey of scaling is the problem changes. Like
Speaker 1: we opened with a discussion of entrepreneurships or entrepreneurs or
Speaker 1: problem solvers. Too often one of the things that happens
Speaker 1: to your problem solves, Oh, I solve this version of
Speaker 1: the problem. And so I've got the tool, that's the hammer.
Speaker 1: I'm going to keep doing it. And the scale journeys involve,
Speaker 1: you know, and that's why we have another chapter Learned
Speaker 1: to un learn is changing the tool set up and
Speaker 1: the path that got you here is not necessarily the
Speaker 1: path that we get you there, and so sometimes you
Speaker 1: have to say, well, that really helped us launch our product,
Speaker 1: but the scale model is actually in fact doing deep
Speaker 1: embedded into SEO and Google, or the scale model is
Speaker 1: moving to telesales and an enterprise model to it to
Speaker 1: bring to my product. And for example, like one of
Speaker 1: the things that was not anticipated at LinkedIn is we
Speaker 1: thought for the first x years it would all be
Speaker 1: individuals only, and we thought individuals would expense their their
Speaker 1: recruiting or their sales or their problem solving to the company.
Speaker 1: But we found that the company started knocking at our
Speaker 1: door almost before we'd launched our subscription product, going well,
Speaker 1: we want an enterprise product, and was like, oh and
Speaker 1: by the way, this is kind of classic entrepreneurship, as
Speaker 1: we went okay, so we listened. We said, well, that's
Speaker 1: different than our plan. How do we measure this, how
Speaker 1: do we have a bias to speed action and learning?
Speaker 1: And we said, okay, well, let's create a PowerPoint deck
Speaker 1: that describes a product. By the way, at this moment
Speaker 1: is totally fictional, like we literally sat around for a
Speaker 1: weekend and said the product could look like this, So
Speaker 1: let's mock it up, create a PowerPoint deck, and then
Speaker 1: go out and say, well, this is a product we're
Speaker 1: working on. What do you think about it? Would you
Speaker 1: buy it? Right? And the first salespeople were very entrepreneurial.
Speaker 1: They're not the same as the scale success salespeople that
Speaker 1: LinkedIn has now, but those where they came back and
Speaker 1: they said, well, we got some weird feedback on this one.
Speaker 1: We've changed that, but this is a product we think
Speaker 1: that a waunch of people will initially buy, and so
Speaker 1: then we went and built it. And that's kind of
Speaker 1: classic for these kind of entrepreneurial journeys. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1: I love that. It's always I find that an all
Speaker 1: successful entrepreneur journeys, you see this pivot. You see this
Speaker 1: moment where you're now creating something that wasn't the plan.
Speaker 1: It wasn't the business model, it wasn't the way you
Speaker 1: thought you were going to get to success or scale
Speaker 1: or speed rarely comes from something internally as well, right,
Speaker 1: It comes from how the customers using it, playing with it.
Speaker 1: Who's who's asking the right questions? In chapter three read
Speaker 1: you talk about the big idea? What is the big idea,
Speaker 1: and I feel like and I'm asking this questionably. I mean,
Speaker 1: you probably get this question all the time. I think
Speaker 1: it's important to ask it because I do think this
Speaker 1: is the majority of people that that I connect to,
Speaker 1: that I meet, that I hear when I'm recording the
Speaker 1: podcast is I think I have an idea, but I'm
Speaker 1: too scared to take action on it or take it
Speaker 1: seriously because the whole journey seems overwhelming. Do I have
Speaker 1: to fundraise or not? Do I have the skills or not?
Speaker 1: Are there too many competitors that are doing the same thing?
Speaker 1: Is my idea even original? I saw ten companies like
Speaker 1: this fail last year. These are the things that go
Speaker 1: through our head. And then the most basic one, what
Speaker 1: will my friends say when this doesn't work out right?
Speaker 1: Like what will my parents think of me that I
Speaker 1: left my college education to do this or I quit
Speaker 1: law to do this. These are the kind of things
Speaker 1: we're hearing all the time. What do you say to
Speaker 1: people when they say that to you, or when you
Speaker 1: see that, or when you hear that? And I get
Speaker 1: that that's a big broad question, but how do you
Speaker 1: try and help people narrow it down? It's a very
Speaker 1: complicated question because it comes that lot down to the
Speaker 1: individual and the individual's goals purposes, you know, strategy, risk tolerance,
Speaker 1: what kind of activity they want, and so you have
Speaker 1: to you have to always condition it based on it.
Speaker 1: Now a few general principles which again apply very differently
Speaker 1: depending on you know, kind of kind of who you
Speaker 1: are is, I mean, what circumstances you're in. How much
Speaker 1: risk can you take? Entrepreneurship always involves risk. Even if
Speaker 1: you think you've d risk the idea a lot, there's
Speaker 1: always a lot of unknown unknowns, and part of an
Speaker 1: entrepreneurship you have to deal with the unknowns in order
Speaker 1: to in order to do this, I think there's a
Speaker 1: question around you don't do an entrepreneurial idea unless you
Speaker 1: can think of yourself doing it for the next ten years,
Speaker 1: because part of success is like would this be worth
Speaker 1: at least ten years of my life in so doing?
Speaker 1: And if not, then great? Not the thing that you
Speaker 1: need to do right? And then when you go and
Speaker 1: talk to your friends about it and try to get
Speaker 1: some wisdom of the crowds around how does the thing work?
Speaker 1: You don't ask them do you like the idea? You
Speaker 1: don't ask them do you think it can work, because
Speaker 1: they will think that what you want is reassurance. What
Speaker 1: you want to say what won't work about this idea?
Speaker 1: What could cause the idea to fail? Because if you
Speaker 1: get that feedback and then you begin to aggregate this.
Speaker 1: This also gets back to the learning from nose that
Speaker 1: we were talking about. You aggregate that feedback, then you
Speaker 1: have a better chance at taking smart risks, including choosing
Speaker 1: whether or not to do it. Now. One last little
Speaker 1: kind of kind of pro entrepreneurial tip for people who
Speaker 1: are daunted, which is another thing that good entrepreneurs do
Speaker 1: is they kind of figure out how to experiment. So
Speaker 1: you say, well, I've got this idea. It's an idea
Speaker 1: for a new app. Maybe it's an idea for a
Speaker 1: mindfulness or wisdom app or something. You say, well, all right,
Speaker 1: but I'm really nervous about doing this. What could I do? Well?
Speaker 1: I could go buy some you know kind of I
Speaker 1: could go put up a web page, describe what it is,
Speaker 1: say click on click on here if you're interested in this,
Speaker 1: and then buy some advertising against it, and then see
Speaker 1: what the clickthroughs look. Click and if the click throughs
Speaker 1: look totally fantastic, then I was like, well, maybe shoot,
Speaker 1: that's data. Maybe I should go do this. And because
Speaker 1: I've described alls and if the clickthroughs look bad, then
Speaker 1: you can say, well, maybe I didn't do the experiment
Speaker 1: the right way, or maybe maybe I shouldn't do this
Speaker 1: right And so there's ways to experiment with things. People
Speaker 1: too often get stuck in their mind when when do
Speaker 1: and then reflect? Think, do, reflect, think right and and
Speaker 1: be in that cycle on a relatively quick basis is
Speaker 1: central to solving these unknown, unknown problems. Yeah, I'm so
Speaker 1: glad you added that last piece. I feel like experimenting
Speaker 1: is one of the greatest assets in skill and the
Speaker 1: best thing about experiments they can be free or very cheap.
Speaker 1: They can be very quick to do. You don't have
Speaker 1: to build for a year or you know, waste time
Speaker 1: in your life. You could literally build it this weekend
Speaker 1: if you felt like it and tested something, and you
Speaker 1: get immediate feedback and response from people that are not
Speaker 1: connected to your family or your friends, or people that
Speaker 1: you feel well, they're saying it because they're connected, or
Speaker 1: they don't like it because I'm their friend and they
Speaker 1: know me and they want me to stay safe. And
Speaker 1: so I couldn't agree with you more that I remember
Speaker 1: when I first was starting what I was doing. I
Speaker 1: think experimenting even today has always been my favorite way
Speaker 1: of realizing whether I should do something or not. And
Speaker 1: I love it because anyone who's sitting there going it
Speaker 1: costs too much? Experimenting is free or cheap. Please remember
Speaker 1: that it takes too long. No, it doesn't. This could
Speaker 1: literally happen this weekend, and oh it's you know, well,
Speaker 1: who's going to use it anyway? You have no idea.
Speaker 1: That's the fun of it, And so I'm so happy
Speaker 1: you you've really emphasize that point at the end, because
Speaker 1: there's no better way to see whether your idea actually
Speaker 1: has legs. And oh yes, please read go ahead. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Let me add one thing to this, which is people
Speaker 1: always think experiment is out in the world. Sometimes the
Speaker 1: experiments with yourself too. How does this make you feel?
Speaker 1: Do you feel stressed by it? Do you feel energized
Speaker 1: by it? That experimentation is also good. We have this presumption,
Speaker 1: because we're in our own heads, that we're the best
Speaker 1: experts of ourselves and the answer, of course, we have
Speaker 1: a depth of experience and all the rest. But actually,
Speaker 1: in fact, we have blind spots to ourselves. We have
Speaker 1: unknown unknowns about ourselves, and experimenting is useful there too, Yes,
Speaker 1: for sure, I think that's I mean that deep checking
Speaker 1: with ourselves is potentially when we ignore that it's why
Speaker 1: we're seeking approval and validation from outside because we've not
Speaker 1: really sense checked the idea the experience with ourselves. And
Speaker 1: I've often found the other way around that I've been
Speaker 1: so sure about my decisions and pretty much everyone in
Speaker 1: the room is saying no, but I'm still going to
Speaker 1: do it because I feel so sure. And I've always
Speaker 1: felt that that internal surety and assurance and confidence has
Speaker 1: actually made me feel stronger than even when everyone else agrees.
Speaker 1: And it wasn't for the same reason as you said earlier.
Speaker 1: For me, when I'm in a room when everyone agrees,
Speaker 1: it feels uncomfortable if I am not sure, And I
Speaker 1: think often we're trying to make other people's assurances make
Speaker 1: up for our lack of assurance, but that actually never
Speaker 1: works and it never feels right, whereas it's the other
Speaker 1: way around. Your assurance can make up for everyone's lack
Speaker 1: of assurance and push the idea through. I see you
Speaker 1: nodding and laughing so I feel like, Okay, I'm understanding,
Speaker 1: I'm getting this right. Chapter four read was the one
Speaker 1: that I am most in love with, and it's because
Speaker 1: it's where I am at in my journey in terms
Speaker 1: of culture for my company, culture for my teams. You know,
Speaker 1: where we've been fast growing for the last few years
Speaker 1: across my different ventures and different organizations. We have probably
Speaker 1: around fifty people now, and it's not always people that
Speaker 1: I meet and see all the time. There's people working internationally.
Speaker 1: There's there's people across working across time zones and in
Speaker 1: different areas of our company where I have chief operating
Speaker 1: officers and other individuals who manage them more on a
Speaker 1: day to day basis. And as someone who is also
Speaker 1: quote unquote using industry language, not seeing myself this way
Speaker 1: talent and CEO, it's an interesting position to be in
Speaker 1: and it's something that I realize that I spent a
Speaker 1: lot of years trying to choose and figure out which one,
Speaker 1: and I only just feel this year I've kind of
Speaker 1: figured out how I want to balance the two. And
Speaker 1: so when you're Chapter four is dedicated to what you
Speaker 1: call the neverending, ending project, which is culture, and I
Speaker 1: believe I'm on a culture two point zero for my
Speaker 1: work and what I'm trying to create. And you talk
Speaker 1: a lot about how your first employees in the company
Speaker 1: are important, and you say if your company is dominated
Speaker 1: by one type of person, your collective blind spots will
Speaker 1: add up to tunnel vision, and which I thought was fascinating.
Speaker 1: But the part of culture that I find most interesting
Speaker 1: is being able to sustain, continually inspire and create a
Speaker 1: culture that people also want to be a part of. Now, recruitment, retention,
Speaker 1: and reward are all part of that puzzle. Let's go
Speaker 1: through each of them. Let's start with recruitment. What has
Speaker 1: been your favorite way of knowing you've made a good hire?
Speaker 1: What has been your favorite method, approach tactic to hiring
Speaker 1: that has deeply helped all one that you've seen through
Speaker 1: the podcast that you've been blown away by. So I
Speaker 1: think one of the really key things to do well
Speaker 1: is to not make hiring a solo journey for you
Speaker 1: as founder or CEO, or for any manager or executive,
Speaker 1: but rather make both the hiring decisioning at least moderately
Speaker 1: a group journey, not just because of buying a group
Speaker 1: and all arrests, but even if you're like, look, I'm
Speaker 1: hiring a new you know, VP of people. It's it's
Speaker 1: the beginning of an organization. But you're like, and that
Speaker 1: will report to the CEO. But I wouldn't. Don't just
Speaker 1: do it as only the CEO. So that's one part
Speaker 1: in the hiring. But then the next part gets really critical,
Speaker 1: which is make other people, like, make a group responsible
Speaker 1: for the onboarding, so that part of how a person
Speaker 1: comes up to speed quickly on the culture begins to
Speaker 1: add to it is not just the discussions that you
Speaker 1: have during the interviewing and reference checking and other kinds
Speaker 1: of things of the process, but also during the initial
Speaker 1: parts of the work. Because if you have that, then
Speaker 1: you have the whole or you know, a proxy of
Speaker 1: the organization reaching out and helping without onboarding. And then
Speaker 1: that gets the detail of your question, because how do
Speaker 1: you know that you've made a magnificent hire is when
Speaker 1: call it the three people or five people that you've
Speaker 1: made jointly responsible for the onboarding. I'll come back and say, Oh,
Speaker 1: this new person she's great. Oh this new person, you know,
Speaker 1: he's really interesting and he's you know, doing well. And
Speaker 1: so because then you can say, ah, I've got a
Speaker 1: lot of different touch points. And by the way, of course,
Speaker 1: one of the things is if you get three of
Speaker 1: them or two of them saying hey, great and the
Speaker 1: other two going I don't know, you go, okay, well,
Speaker 1: what's the I don't know? Do I need to make
Speaker 1: an adjustment? That's not necessarily an adjustment the person should
Speaker 1: meet over the organization. But you want to do all
Speaker 1: the stuff early, right, because you usually when you have
Speaker 1: this magnificent partnering between new employees and the organization they're working,
Speaker 1: it starts on a very strong foot. It's rare that
Speaker 1: it starts on a weak foot and then converts. So
Speaker 1: you want as much of that initial strength as possible,
Speaker 1: and you need the organization to kind of collectively work
Speaker 1: at it, and then, by the way, ultimately make a decision,
Speaker 1: because like if you go, if you're sixty days in
Speaker 1: and you're like, this is a mistake, then you want
Speaker 1: to fix the mistakes as quickly but also as humanly
Speaker 1: as possible. Yes, yeah, I really appreciate that advice. I
Speaker 1: think that's the mistake I made first time around. The
Speaker 1: whole recruitment approach was one person led. It was very,
Speaker 1: very difficult to figure it out. And you're so right
Speaker 1: that as soon as we switch to a more group
Speaker 1: based system, that in effect And it's hard in the
Speaker 1: beginning because sometimes there isn't that bigger group in the beginning,
Speaker 1: it is just you, and so you're kind of relying
Speaker 1: on yourself. But I like the idea of including people
Speaker 1: even if they're not full time, even if they're people
Speaker 1: that work with you freelance or part time, that you
Speaker 1: trust and love. You may even have someone involved that
Speaker 1: you value in your personal life as part of the
Speaker 1: interview process. I think that we think of that as
Speaker 1: weird or awkward, but it's not at all, because there
Speaker 1: may be someone in your personal life who you believe
Speaker 1: really understands you and knows you that could help with
Speaker 1: that process. So I think that's a such a great
Speaker 1: way of thinking about it, in such a simple way
Speaker 1: of solving the problem. Let's move on to retention. Keeping
Speaker 1: that culture, growing that culture, preserving it, expanding it. What
Speaker 1: are certain cultural principles? Every company has their own culture,
Speaker 1: and everyone has their own deck, and everyone puts their
Speaker 1: own words on the wall. What is some that you
Speaker 1: think are underlying all good company culture? Are there some
Speaker 1: key pillars, key themes that you believe are just integral
Speaker 1: to any successful company that kind of go beyond industry
Speaker 1: boundaries and backgrounds. Well, I think there's patterns that you
Speaker 1: want in every culture. It doesn't assume mean they're instantiate
Speaker 1: the same way. So it's it's kind of the question
Speaker 1: of like what does excellence look like? Here? We always
Speaker 1: search search excellence, but what is excellence for us? Like
Speaker 1: it should a culture should always be seeking excellence, but
Speaker 1: specific not we you seek excellence, but like our excellence
Speaker 1: is this sort like we are thoughtful, we are multi
Speaker 1: stakehost older inclusive. It's like what are the top priorities
Speaker 1: in terms of what you're doing? Another one is this
Speaker 1: is how we define our team play. This is the
Speaker 1: kind of way that we hold each other accountable. Part
Speaker 1: of defining a culture is like, for example, where should
Speaker 1: every employee be able to hold the founder or the
Speaker 1: CEO accountable? What? What what should they hold that person
Speaker 1: accountable for? Like what's the way that we are running
Speaker 1: in that? And I think that's part of like what
Speaker 1: the pattern of that is? So like are we move
Speaker 1: fast or we are take intelligent risks or we are
Speaker 1: act like owners? You know, all of these things could
Speaker 1: be very good cultural elements, but which one particularly define us?
Speaker 1: And even though there might be a list of twenty virtues,
Speaker 1: part of culture is like, well, these are the ones
Speaker 1: we most focus on. These are the ones we most
Speaker 1: hold each other accountable to. These are the ones that
Speaker 1: were like when we're cross checking, how we're evolving, how
Speaker 1: we're playing the game, how we're getting the scale that
Speaker 1: cross checking is still the thing that with each other,
Speaker 1: that drives us for it, and you want to set
Speaker 1: that from the very earliest days. It grows, it can change.
Speaker 1: The mistake that people frequently have a thing about culture
Speaker 1: is they think like a culture deck. They think it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, the Ten Commandments. You know, it's like it
Speaker 1: comes written in stone, and you're like, no, no, culture evolves.
Speaker 1: And so you want to have the right organism, the
Speaker 1: right set of people who are adding to it, who
Speaker 1: when you when you when you bring in a new person,
Speaker 1: they're part of that organism too, also adding to it
Speaker 1: and also helping it, you know, adapt and change and
Speaker 1: expand with a foundation but still organic and developing. Yes. Yes,
Speaker 1: one of one of the ones that I think work
Speaker 1: like that for me was as an entrepreneur, one of
Speaker 1: your values naturally is risk taking. It's expression, it's it's failing,
Speaker 1: it's figuring it out. And I realized that actually, for
Speaker 1: my team, one of their biggest values was the exact opposite,
Speaker 1: and it was safety. And I started to realize how
Speaker 1: important safety was to team members. And that blows my
Speaker 1: mind because I was just I've never looked for safety
Speaker 1: in my life anywhere, And it's so easy to get
Speaker 1: caught up in building a culture that is only for you,
Speaker 1: but not everyone can work that way. And I started
Speaker 1: to recognize how certain things we did, even though we
Speaker 1: didn't do it to have this impact, it would be
Speaker 1: seen as unsafe to someone even though it was never
Speaker 1: from that mindset. The mindset was always growth and building
Speaker 1: and doing more amazing things. But how not bringing people
Speaker 1: on that journey made them feel unsafe. And so that one,
Speaker 1: for me was a huge one that I had to
Speaker 1: realize that this idea of being proactive and risk driven
Speaker 1: and all this actually had to be completely reverse engineered
Speaker 1: into a feeling of just safety and support, which was
Speaker 1: new to me and byther the nuance of course, which
Speaker 1: I'm certain most part of your journey is, which parts
Speaker 1: of safety, which were the fundamental it's not safety and
Speaker 1: everything safety and everywhere, it's which were the key parts
Speaker 1: that are part of this organization, this set of team play,
Speaker 1: and that's part of organic cultural evolution. Yes, yes, no,
Speaker 1: And that's why. Yeah, I think that that nuance is
Speaker 1: is so clear that we live at a time where
Speaker 1: everyone's just like, WHOA should I make a company that's
Speaker 1: risky or that's this, And it's so much more about
Speaker 1: embracing polarities than it is about choosing one or the
Speaker 1: other blanketly, because that doesn't that doesn't work either. So no,
Speaker 1: I love that distinction and so important. Chapter seven that
Speaker 1: I wanted to dive in and I'm mixing and skipping
Speaker 1: now is you know, watch what they do, not what
Speaker 1: they say. And in terms of looking at the customer,
Speaker 1: and I find that this is something that some people
Speaker 1: have an innate ability to spot patterns and notice how
Speaker 1: people are interacting. And you know, sometimes I feel like
Speaker 1: my mind works like an algorithm, and I feel like
Speaker 1: my mind's like just connecting darts and stuff. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, what are some of the most practical
Speaker 1: ways you've seen companies really listen, learn and watch their
Speaker 1: customers or people before they become customers. What have been
Speaker 1: some of the most masterful ways that companies have actually
Speaker 1: made systematize that. Well, there's a whole set and it
Speaker 1: goes from obviously consumer internet, which tends to be the
Speaker 1: software telemetry in terms of what's going on, to even
Speaker 1: physical hardware like for example, watching on like one of
Speaker 1: the things the earliest things that's taught in design school
Speaker 1: from decades ago is watched the unboxing experience. Because while
Speaker 1: people you might say what most what did you most love?
Speaker 1: What did you most hate, the person may not realize
Speaker 1: that the thing that caused them to start on the
Speaker 1: wrong foot was like, for example, a weird unboxing experience.
Speaker 1: And so the general truth the matter is is you
Speaker 1: always want to spend a little bit of time kind
Speaker 1: of observing a kind of an unguided and unforced interaction
Speaker 1: with the product or service that you're trying to do.
Speaker 1: And sometimes you need a lot of time, sometimes you
Speaker 1: need a lot of people doing that, but you want
Speaker 1: to get some sense of it because if you don't
Speaker 1: have that sense, and some people of course just totally
Speaker 1: natural at that intuition. This is among the you know,
Speaker 1: the brilliances of the Steve Jobs and so forth. But
Speaker 1: if you don't get that sense, then you could make
Speaker 1: some very fundamental bad assumptions, bad judgments. And too often,
Speaker 1: very very few of us should totally prioritize. You know,
Speaker 1: I am genius, I know the product. It's always like,
Speaker 1: you know, be learning, be learning from other people, be
Speaker 1: learning from watching. And you know, for example, one of
Speaker 1: the things that I think people are underappreciate in the
Speaker 1: kind of the Steve Jobs canon is how much that
Speaker 1: every time he kind of found an interesting new product,
Speaker 1: even one that he thought was completely bonkers, he would
Speaker 1: invite the founder by for lunch or for breakfast or
Speaker 1: for coffee and talk to them because a way of
Speaker 1: learning as a way of doing that, and I think
Speaker 1: that is a similar kind of tactile nature of that,
Speaker 1: And so I think that's the that's the thing is
Speaker 1: to is to try to get some observation and some engagement.
Speaker 1: There is I think critical for every entrepreneur. Wow, And
Speaker 1: that's the side of Steve Jobs that's often not talked
Speaker 1: about or not often shared, and and you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's really fascinating for me. Steve Jobs has been such
Speaker 1: a inspiration in so many ways by you know, studying
Speaker 1: his life and studying decisions choices, his spiritual background. You know,
Speaker 1: there is such a fascinating individual. And I think again,
Speaker 1: when we look at entrepreneurs and where we study entrepreneurs,
Speaker 1: it's so important to not start putting them in boxes
Speaker 1: and then trying to choose which personality type we are,
Speaker 1: because people are so much more complex and multilayered and textured.
Speaker 1: Like each interesting entrepreneurial journey is somewhat sui generous. So
Speaker 1: while there are archetypes that you should pay attention to,
Speaker 1: whether it's union or anything else, the notion of what
Speaker 1: you're doing is you're creating something new. And by the
Speaker 1: way that you don't want to invent everything across all spectrum.
Speaker 1: You want to focus set of new things, usually the
Speaker 1: product or service, sometimes in the way you go to market,
Speaker 1: sometimes in the way you organize. But one mistake that's
Speaker 1: kind of entertaining the entrepreneur's make is they invent new
Speaker 1: on everything. And actually, in fact it is too generous.
Speaker 1: It is unique and a specific subset of inventions or
Speaker 1: what's key. I love that that's that's that's such an
Speaker 1: interesting and new way of thinking. About it as well,
Speaker 1: that I don't think that you know, we've all fully
Speaker 1: considered read it. We've got a few more moments left
Speaker 1: with you. I've got a ton more questions for you,
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna I'm gonna be I'm gonna narrow some
Speaker 1: of them down. I wanted to ask you before we
Speaker 1: dive into what we called the final five on on Purpose,
Speaker 1: which is our fast five. I wanted to ask you.
Speaker 1: We were speaking earlier before we came live, and we
Speaker 1: were talking about purpose, and you were talking about how
Speaker 1: Masters of Scale is like philanthropic, it's service based, it's extension, right,
Speaker 1: tell how important? At what point is purpose important? Is
Speaker 1: it important? From the big inning it does? It usually
Speaker 1: evolve later for entrepreneurs. Where does it fit into the
Speaker 1: puzzle of joy, happiness, success? And where have you seen
Speaker 1: it been most beautifully incorporated. Frequently entrepreneurs can make a
Speaker 1: mistake here because there they go, Look, there's this market opportunity.
Speaker 1: This technology enables this. I see this competitive space opening up.
Speaker 1: I see that I could now do this with this
Speaker 1: new technology. I could offer this product that's now based
Speaker 1: on the cloud, or based on AI or based on mobile,
Speaker 1: and that's all very by the way, very important. It's
Speaker 1: super relevant to the success of the entrepreneurial journey. But
Speaker 1: these entrepreneurial journeys, they're team sports, they're not individual sports.
Speaker 1: And as part of the team sport, and part of
Speaker 1: the reason why, like whenever you look at any team organization,
Speaker 1: sports teams, your military teams and other things, is that
Speaker 1: a spree decor that we're in this together and that
Speaker 1: it matters that we're in this and that we have
Speaker 1: pride that we're in this. Pride with each other, Pride
Speaker 1: with our family, is pride with the society, and that
Speaker 1: is all part of having a purpose, part of having
Speaker 1: a mission, and so defining that like why what is
Speaker 1: the world that we are seeking to make it better?
Speaker 1: And by the way, it doesn't have look obviously the
Speaker 1: people trying to cure cancer, it's super important, but there's
Speaker 1: lots of aspects to making society better. This is how
Speaker 1: we are doing that. This is why the thing that
Speaker 1: we're adding in is so important. And so I think
Speaker 1: that that's important from the very earliest seedling of the
Speaker 1: idea within all of these projects, but especially the entrepreneurial
Speaker 1: where you're trying to build these institutions that help transform
Speaker 1: society at scale, and so I think it's it's one
Speaker 1: of the things to start with on day zero. That's brilliant.
Speaker 1: I love hearing that. That's music to my ears. Of course,
Speaker 1: I'm the own purpose community because I really believe that it.
Speaker 1: It's always there from the birth of the idea and
Speaker 1: the purposes. What keeps you going and keep you persevering.
Speaker 1: It keeps you through all those crazy late nights and
Speaker 1: early mornings and lack of sleep and the breakdown. Like
Speaker 1: the only thing that keeps you going is your purpose,
Speaker 1: whatever that may be. So I love hearing that. Now, read,
Speaker 1: I want to ask you the final five. These are
Speaker 1: the fast five where you have to answer the questions
Speaker 1: in one word or one sentence maximum, So you have
Speaker 1: one sentence. Please feel free to play with that. Read
Speaker 1: These are your fast five? Are you ready? I hope
Speaker 1: so awesome? I love it. So the first question I
Speaker 1: have for you is, what is the best entrepreneurship advice
Speaker 1: you've ever received? Make decisions quickly and recover when you
Speaker 1: need to. Nice? Okay, great answer. What is the worst
Speaker 1: entrepreneurship advice you've ever received or given? Persevere against all odds. Oh,
Speaker 1: And the answer is because you need to learn right,
Speaker 1: So it is only perseverance. It's also adaptation. Yes, absolutely, pivot, learning, adapting,
Speaker 1: regenerating completely if that's if that's what it takes. Okay.
Speaker 1: Third question, what is something that you once valued that
Speaker 1: you no longer value? Crazy hard work? And what I
Speaker 1: mean by that was it's kind of a youthful thing,
Speaker 1: which is when you're eighteen, you're like, ah, you should
Speaker 1: pull an all nighter, or you should show that you
Speaker 1: could do it by pulling three all nighters. And now
Speaker 1: I'm definitely of the working smart. You have to work
Speaker 1: hard on all these journeys, but working smart is the
Speaker 1: important governor on working hard. I love that great crushing number. Four.
Speaker 1: What's a daily habit that you don't negotiate with that
Speaker 1: you always do no matter what? Adequate sleep? How many
Speaker 1: hours do you sleep? Minimum six with the occasional frequently
Speaker 1: weekends go to eight. Try to have one or two
Speaker 1: nights usually a morning's usually weekends where you don't send
Speaker 1: an alarm and you wake up when your body is
Speaker 1: like okay, I'm ready. Part of this is because we
Speaker 1: go through life, we make decisions all the time. We
Speaker 1: make multiple decisions all the day, and if you're making
Speaker 1: bad decisions, you're gonna error, and so you have to
Speaker 1: be cognitively in the right place, which of course is
Speaker 1: also mindfulness and purpose. But sleep is the baseline. I
Speaker 1: love that that's such a great one, such an important habit,
Speaker 1: and underestimated. As a monk, I didn't sleep very much,
Speaker 1: but today I sleep is one of my biggest values too.
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more, all right. Fifth and final question, read,
Speaker 1: is if you could create one law that everyone in
Speaker 1: the world had to follow, what would it be? Listen first,
Speaker 1: then speak very very great advice and would be an
Speaker 1: amazing law Read at Hoffman everyone. The book is called
Speaker 1: Masters of Scale, same name as the podcast Surprising Truths
Speaker 1: from the World's most successful Entrepreneurs. You can go out
Speaker 1: and grab it right now. You will not regret it.
Speaker 1: You may want to get it for a friend and
Speaker 1: family member to read again. It has been such a
Speaker 1: joy talking to you, and even through this screen, I
Speaker 1: feel your friendliness, I feel your kindness, I feel your graciousness.
Speaker 1: It's it's truly special. It's truly special. I've had this
Speaker 1: experience and actually the only time. The other time I
Speaker 1: had it this week was actually with someone in person,
Speaker 1: but with you, I'm feeling it through the screen, which
Speaker 1: is really special. So I want to thank you for
Speaker 1: being so present, for being so conscious for our community
Speaker 1: and our audience today. You've really served them beautifully with
Speaker 1: your experience, wisdom, insight. I really really hope everyone goes
Speaker 1: and grabs a copy. I can't wait for people to
Speaker 1: read it, and I really again hope to see you
Speaker 1: in person very soon. So yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: If any of you've been listening or watching, make sure
Speaker 1: that you tweet, Instagram, tag me and read because we'd
Speaker 1: love to see what are the nuggets wisdom that you're
Speaker 1: going to apply, what's the thing that you're practicing, experimenting
Speaker 1: with exploring. I love being able to see what you're
Speaker 1: taking away from these episodes because they helped me understand
Speaker 1: which questions to ask, what to improve, what they make better.
Speaker 1: So please please please tag me and read and again,
Speaker 1: and thank you so much for listening to on Purpose
Speaker 1: and read it. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much.