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Speaker 1: You don't really say well, I just want to get

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Speaker 1: a yes, and it's like, well, you're not going to

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Speaker 1: just get a yes, especially if you have something that's

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Speaker 1: bold and original, different, because a bunch of people are

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Speaker 1: gonna say, well, I don't get it right, Like, you know,

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Speaker 1: like I don't get that people will want to buy

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Speaker 1: flavored water without sugar. I don't get that. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's all of these things that we go into on

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Speaker 1: master's of scale to say. Actually, in fact, sometimes when

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Speaker 1: you get a bunch of people who say I don't

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Speaker 1: get it, that's precisely when you have something that's gold. Hey. Everyone,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast

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Speaker 1: in the world. Thanks to each and every single one

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Speaker 1: of you that come back every week to listen, learn

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Speaker 1: and grow. Now you know that I don't take your

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Speaker 1: ears for granted. I'm grateful that you take out so

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Speaker 1: much time out of your days to listen and learn,

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Speaker 1: whether you're walking your dog, or you're at the gym,

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Speaker 1: or whether you're driving to and from work or wherever

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Speaker 1: you are right now. Thank you for choosing on Purpose.

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Speaker 1: And this is a conversation that I've been excited to

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Speaker 1: have for a very long time. Today, I'm speaking to

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Speaker 1: none other than Read Hoffman. Now, Read is an accomplished entrepreneur,

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Speaker 1: and that is an understatement. He's an investor. He has

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Speaker 1: played an integral role in building many of today's leading

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Speaker 1: consumer technology businesses. He's, of course, the co founder of

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Speaker 1: LinkedIn and an investor at Gray Luck. He's the host

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Speaker 1: of his own podcast, Masters of Scale, So you're going

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Speaker 1: to see a master at work today, an original podcast

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Speaker 1: series and the first American media program to commit to

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Speaker 1: a fifty fifty gender balance for featured guests. He's the

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Speaker 1: co author of four best selling books, The Startup of You,

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Speaker 1: The Alliance, Blitz Scaling, and his newest book with the

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Speaker 1: same name of his podcast, Masters of Scale, Surprising Truths

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Speaker 1: from the world's most successful entrepreneurs. Read. Welcome to on Purpose,

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Speaker 1: and thank you for being here. It's great to be here.

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Speaker 1: I love your show. I've listened to it, you know,

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Speaker 1: as much as I listened to podcast including my own right,

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Speaker 1: which is every moment I have time for and if

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Speaker 1: I had a little bit more commutes outside of the pandemic,

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Speaker 1: I think my listening to all of these quality podcasts

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Speaker 1: most centrally yours. That's so kind read, I'm humbled and

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Speaker 1: I'm touched, and the feeling is mutuo. I love your

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Speaker 1: podcast too, and that's what I was just thanking you

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Speaker 1: offline that I'm so grateful that you've synthesized all of

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Speaker 1: this incredible wisdom from all the phenomenal people you've interviewed

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Speaker 1: into a book that we can easily look at, read,

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Speaker 1: skip to chapters, look at challenges, understand stories, and as

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Speaker 1: we're talking about before, what I love about the book

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Speaker 1: is that it's the stories, it's the psychology, it's the tips,

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Speaker 1: it's the insight, it's everything. It's this very three sixty

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Speaker 1: degree approach. But read, I want to start with your

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Speaker 1: life not as an entrepreneur, but as an employee and

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Speaker 1: your first paying job as an editor at a gaming company,

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Speaker 1: and you also wanted to become a professor, which makes

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Speaker 1: me think you were gearing up to be an employee

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Speaker 1: either of a school or an incredible faculty, and of

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Speaker 1: course you did as a gaming company. When did the

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Speaker 1: idea of entrepreneurship first spark your intrigue and curiosity and

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Speaker 1: how much were you already convinced you were going to

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Speaker 1: be an entrepreneur or were you always thinking you were

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Speaker 1: going to be an employee. So I don't think the

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Speaker 1: category of employee or entrepreneur had actually really occurred to me.

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Speaker 1: I always think in terms of projects. I always think

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Speaker 1: in terms of what the work is, what the activity,

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Speaker 1: what you're building, And I don't think it was until

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Speaker 1: years later. I don't think it was until years into

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Speaker 1: LinkedIn that I was like, all right, entrepreneur is the

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Speaker 1: word that describes the activity that I'm doing. Like it

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Speaker 1: wasn't really like I'm going to be an entrepreneur, that's

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Speaker 1: really It was more like what do you build? What

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Speaker 1: do you fashion? And that was you know, all the

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Speaker 1: way back to you know, great research. Not that many

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Speaker 1: people know that I kind of you know, talked my

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Speaker 1: way into the door of a gaming company when I

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Speaker 1: was twelve and then ended up doing some work for them, so,

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Speaker 1: you know, good research for that. But that was because

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Speaker 1: I was interested in fantasy role playing games, you know,

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Speaker 1: dungeons and dragons, and I was like, this is what

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Speaker 1: I want to spend my time doing. So I want

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Speaker 1: to get in that door, and I want to connect

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Speaker 1: with the people who were doing this. And then you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of similarly, and then I think I became an

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Speaker 1: entrepreneur because when I started thinking about the company, the

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Speaker 1: impact that I wanted to have in the world, the

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Speaker 1: way that I wanted, the insights that I thought I

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Speaker 1: had that could be operationalized. You know, it was coming

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Speaker 1: about from the very earliest days of the Internet, and

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Speaker 1: with the various earliest days of the internet, was how

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Speaker 1: do we live in this medium by which all of

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Speaker 1: us as individuals and as groups were made better off?

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Speaker 1: And what kind of products can you create there? And

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Speaker 1: when I looked at kind of like what were the

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Speaker 1: things I could possibly join, none of them had that

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Speaker 1: kind of shape of what I wanted to create. And

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Speaker 1: so that made me an entrepreneur. And I wasn't reluctant,

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Speaker 1: but I was completely focused on this is the future

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Speaker 1: that I want to build, and so you know that

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Speaker 1: naturally more more naturally alligned with entrepreneurship. What I love

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Speaker 1: about that, reader is that not having these buckets, almost

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Speaker 1: of thought of saying I have to choose actually helped

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Speaker 1: you find the right path. And I think often we

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Speaker 1: put these very binary black and white choices in front

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Speaker 1: of people and we say, or do you want to

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Speaker 1: work for someone or do you want to be an entrepreneur,

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Speaker 1: and in one sense, they're both the wrong questions. It

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Speaker 1: seems like the right question, as you said, is to

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Speaker 1: be project focused, is to thinking about what you actually

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Speaker 1: want to do or what you want to build, and

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Speaker 1: which home allows you to build that more successfully, which

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Speaker 1: I think is a brilliant insight. So I really appreciate that.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to understand, though, when you started your first company,

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Speaker 1: social Net, could you share with us the mistakes that

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Speaker 1: you made and which mistakes you don't want our audience

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Speaker 1: to avoid. I think often the question is well read

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Speaker 1: like what mistakes should I avoid when I start a company?

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you the opposite question, what mistakes

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Speaker 1: would just so integral that you had to make when

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Speaker 1: you started your first company that you would want other

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Speaker 1: people to have. It is an absolutely great question, and

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Speaker 1: one of the kind of I think one thing you

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Speaker 1: learn about business and entrepreneurship as aphorisms, and I think

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Speaker 1: one of the aphorisms that's apropos here is I never

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Speaker 1: learned so much except for maybe between the ages of

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Speaker 1: two and three when I jumped off the cliff for

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Speaker 1: my first company, and people obviously, and by the way

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Speaker 1: I normally advertise here's the landmine you avoid. You know,

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Speaker 1: here's the tour. But your question is also a really

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Speaker 1: great one. I would tend to say the mistakes that

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Speaker 1: I made that I think are still that are integral

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Speaker 1: to being successful in entrepreneurship. One is jumping off the cliff,

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Speaker 1: a biased action if you think about it in a

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Speaker 1: clearheaded way. There's all kinds of things you don't know

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Speaker 1: before you start a company. I didn't really know I

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Speaker 1: could never start a company before. Didn't know about financing,

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Speaker 1: didn't know about what your initial hires would be, didn't

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Speaker 1: know how to scope a project for the first product release,

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Speaker 1: didn't know which things were kind of the classic mistakes

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Speaker 1: now that I think I could have done a little

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Speaker 1: bit more research on and probably would have been, like

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Speaker 1: my advice to my younger self would be call a

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Speaker 1: few people you know, and kind of avoid the obvious mistakes,

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Speaker 1: so you make the unobvious mistakes. But I think the

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Speaker 1: predisposition to kind of jumping off the cliff and going

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Speaker 1: was I think one of the things that was a

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Speaker 1: central you know, you say, it's like embodies a whole

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Speaker 1: bunch of mistakes, but you have to make those mistakes,

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Speaker 1: and you have to know that you're making them. It's

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Speaker 1: almost like, boy, I know, I'm going to get into

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Speaker 1: a bunch of fender scrapes and I'm gonna bounce off

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Speaker 1: the side of the yde way and that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: But that's the only path forward, So here we go

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Speaker 1: and hit the accelerator. Yes, I love that answer. I

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Speaker 1: think that's that's such a great one because I think

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Speaker 1: you're so right that if you actually think coherently and

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Speaker 1: in an organized way, you wouldn't do what ppreneurs have

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Speaker 1: had to do, and that becomes your biggest block because

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Speaker 1: chances are your first swing is not going to be

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Speaker 1: successful anyway. But knowing that and still going away and

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Speaker 1: still trying to do that allows you to get over

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Speaker 1: that hurdle of being very sensible and thinking more responsibly.

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Speaker 1: So I think that's a brilliant answer. I wanted to

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Speaker 1: ask you because I think lots of entrepreneurs or people

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Speaker 1: who want to be entrepreneurs, and we're going to go

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Speaker 1: through the book through chapters that I found really powerful.

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Speaker 1: But I wanted to start off by saying you called

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Speaker 1: your podcast and the book masters of Scale. And as

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Speaker 1: soon as I heard that title, when I first started

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Speaker 1: listening to the podcast, I loved it because I always

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Speaker 1: wanted to be able to spread wisdom at scale but

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Speaker 1: with intimacy and death, and that was always my fascination

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Speaker 1: of how could you spread something that was for everyone

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Speaker 1: but speak to one person and really feel like you're

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Speaker 1: connected to one person. What is the difference between scaling

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Speaker 1: and rowing a business and and how you define what

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Speaker 1: a master of scale is? I think there's it's a

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Speaker 1: little bit like other important words in concepts in our

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Speaker 1: human space, like friendship and so forth. It's a little

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Speaker 1: deliberately amorphous on kind of where that kind of scale

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Speaker 1: and mastery goes, because we want it to be everything

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Speaker 1: from you know where the classic things would would think

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Speaker 1: about is building businesses like LinkedIn or Airbnb or you know,

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Speaker 1: or Uber or Google or any of these things that

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Speaker 1: you're that the building these things of industry, redefining society,

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Speaker 1: redefining hopefully massively improving kinds of things is kind of

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Speaker 1: the scale that you're targeting for. And mastery is the

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Speaker 1: mastery of running the the kind of the the slalom

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Speaker 1: course with minefield and fog and all the rest, which

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Speaker 1: is this is the thing that matters is getting the scale.

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Speaker 1: And that's that's what we essentially targeted. It's not just

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Speaker 1: the entrepreneurs, but executives and employees and people who care

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Speaker 1: about what these companies are organizations are doing. But we

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Speaker 1: also hope that the tools will apply in a wide

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Speaker 1: variety of other things. So you could say, well, I

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Speaker 1: think the only way of solving climate change is scale technology,

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Speaker 1: but also the only way of of improving human society

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Speaker 1: is scale wisdom. So how would you take these tools

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Speaker 1: and make them available across the entire set to think about,

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Speaker 1: you know, how do we remake ourselves and our societies,

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Speaker 1: you know, at the global or at the transnational scale. Yes, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: And I love that differentiation because just like the word entrepreneur.

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Speaker 1: I remember I was speaking to a really good friend

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Speaker 1: of mine who founded class past pile Kadakia, and I

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Speaker 1: believe she's been on your show actually, and yes, and

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Speaker 1: I remember speaking to her about that. She was, you know,

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Speaker 1: she's also a very big fan of the show too,

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Speaker 1: and she was talking about her definition and entrepreneur is

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Speaker 1: someone who tries to solve a problem, right, not someone

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Speaker 1: who starts a business. And she was saying, you know,

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Speaker 1: you could be selling X or Y or z on

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Speaker 1: the internet and call it a business and call it

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Speaker 1: yourself an entrepreneur. But she was saying that entrepreneurs are

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Speaker 1: really trying to solve a problem. They're addicted and obsessed

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Speaker 1: with that. And I think, just like that, as you're

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Speaker 1: defining the difference between growth and scale, that differentiation is

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Speaker 1: important for us as we start to build our journey

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Speaker 1: or careers. Now in chapter one, you're talking about getting

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Speaker 1: Oh sorry, yes, no, let me just add one thing

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Speaker 1: that piles excellent definition. And her episode was great. I

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Speaker 1: recommend it to everyone. She was one of the people

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Speaker 1: I have the like to meet through doing a podcast.

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Speaker 1: Is that one of the awesome things about us doing

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Speaker 1: these podcasts is a chance to meet other really interesting people.

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Speaker 1: An entrepreneur is a person who's solving a problem, but

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Speaker 1: in particular, she or he is solving a problem where

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Speaker 1: she doesn't yet have either all the resources or the

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Speaker 1: knowledge or all of the tool set in order to

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Speaker 1: do it. So you have to actually inject you like

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Speaker 1: if you were to say, do I have everything laid

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Speaker 1: out in front of me in order to solve that problem?

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Speaker 1: I'm like, for example, I could say for a piece

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Speaker 1: of word working like I'm gonna make you a bed frame. Lord,

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Speaker 1: Do I have everything out in front of me? The

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Speaker 1: answer is, as an entrepreneur, you don't, and you may

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Speaker 1: not even yet know how. And that's one of the

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Speaker 1: key things about the entrepreneurial Journey. I love that edition

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Speaker 1: as well. Yes, building your bedframe from an Ikea box

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Speaker 1: is not does not count. It's all laid out for you.

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Speaker 1: I absolutely love that chapter one in the book. And

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Speaker 1: I always like to give people a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a taste when we're talking about a book, because my

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Speaker 1: genuine hope for everyone who's listening and watching wherever you are,

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Speaker 1: is that you go and grab a copy of this book.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be my new book that I recommend

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Speaker 1: to each and every single person who comes to me

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Speaker 1: and says, you have an idea or I don't know

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Speaker 1: what to do with it, I don't know where to start.

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Speaker 1: How do I go about it? This is the book

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Speaker 1: that I'm going to give them. Or even if you say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't have an idea, I just I am a

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Speaker 1: bit curious about all of this. All my friends are

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Speaker 1: becoming entrepreneurs. I see it all over the world. How

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Speaker 1: do I do that? This is the book, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to be giving to people, so I love to give

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Speaker 1: people a taste. Now, in chapter one you talk about

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Speaker 1: getting to know and accepting rejection and hearing nos can

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Speaker 1: be really draining and really difficult, especially when we've been

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Speaker 1: trained to expect and want a yes. Now, you mentioned

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Speaker 1: in the book the contrarian principle, and this is also

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Speaker 1: one of the principles you mentioned in your other book,

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Speaker 1: blitz Scaling. So I wanted you to actually describe that

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Speaker 1: principle to us and talk about how do we get

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Speaker 1: used to hearing no, and what is that no really

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Speaker 1: asking us to do? So the contrarian principle is in

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Speaker 1: order to achieve something bold, different of scale. Frequently, if

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Speaker 1: it's an idea that lots and lots of people are had,

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Speaker 1: it's much harder to get there, whether as an entrepreneur

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Speaker 1: or an investor, And so you generally want to choose

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Speaker 1: an idea, choose a path, who's a product or service, whatever,

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Speaker 1: which is contrarian but right. It's very easy, of course,

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Speaker 1: to be control and wrong because there are many there's

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Speaker 1: many foolish things to do in the world. And so

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Speaker 1: you go when where a lot of people think that

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Speaker 1: that might be wrong, but actually, in fact you have

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Speaker 1: had some insight or you and your team and your colleagues,

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Speaker 1: your friends have had some insight that you could say, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is how we're going to do it now. Part

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Speaker 1: of how that gets to dealing with nose is say,

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Speaker 1: for example, and by the way, generally speaking, it's a

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Speaker 1: good idea you try to convert crises and opportunities. It's

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Speaker 1: a precise kind of mindset strengthening exercises and balance and

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Speaker 1: poise that you go across. You know, a set of

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Speaker 1: podcasts with on purpose, which is you don't really say well,

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Speaker 1: I just want to get a yes. And it's like, well,

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Speaker 1: you're not going to just get a yes, especially if

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Speaker 1: you have something that's bold and original and different, because

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Speaker 1: a bunch of people are gonna say, well, I don't

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Speaker 1: get it right, Like, you know, like I don't get

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Speaker 1: that people will want to buy flavored water without sugar.

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Speaker 1: I don't get that. You know, there's all of these

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Speaker 1: things that we go into on master's of scale to say, actually,

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Speaker 1: in fact, sometimes when you get a bunch of people

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Speaker 1: who say I don't get it, that's precisely you have

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Speaker 1: something that's gold. Now so the question is, well, how

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Speaker 1: do you deal with a psychology of it? And the

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Speaker 1: answer is, well, approach nose not as a rejection of

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Speaker 1: you or rejection of your idea. A rejection it is

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Speaker 1: obviously a form of rejection, but where you might be

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Speaker 1: able to learn something from it, where you might be

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Speaker 1: able to understand something about the way the world's working.

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Speaker 1: So if actually, in fact, it's a certain kind of

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Speaker 1: know where people say, well, everyone knows that you that's

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Speaker 1: selling flavored water without sugar because everyone wants sugared water

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Speaker 1: won't work, and you're like, ha ha, maybe I have something. Well,

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Speaker 1: everybody knows that no stranger is going to rent a

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Speaker 1: room or an apartment to another stranger. Ah, I may

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Speaker 1: have something. And so you can bring those nose in

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Speaker 1: and then part of the categorization that we do within

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Speaker 1: that first chapter, because that's part of the reason why

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Speaker 1: you open the book with this, is to give you

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Speaker 1: a sense of, well, which which way should you responding

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Speaker 1: to different kinds of nose, Because sometimes it's a no

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Speaker 1: and a thoughtful one from an expert that you should

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Speaker 1: dig into some understand some of why they think that.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes it's a no, that's it's a like a stereotype

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Speaker 1: and just a reflection, and so then you understand that's

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Speaker 1: a stereotype. Sometimes it's because the person's not engaging, in

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Speaker 1: which case you should work. You should waste no more

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Speaker 1: time with this person. And so that's the kind of

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Speaker 1: thing of treating it as a learning journey, which of

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Speaker 1: course is fundamental to life, and of course the entrepreneurship

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Speaker 1: is the way to reorient the mindset in order to

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Speaker 1: to to say it's not rejection, it's part of the

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Speaker 1: hero's journey you're on. Yes, yeah, I'm glad you referenced

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Speaker 1: the hero's journey there as well. And for those of

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Speaker 1: you that have not read it, Joseph Campbell and and

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Speaker 1: other writers have spoken beautifully about the hero's journey and

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Speaker 1: rejection is just such a beautiful part of it when

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Speaker 1: you look back, and when you, like you said it's psychological.

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Speaker 1: We think it's specific to the idea or the business.

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Speaker 1: Actually it's all psychological in hearing no and being rejected

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Speaker 1: and still finding a way to continue. And I really

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Speaker 1: really resonate with that insight that you just shared around

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Speaker 1: how one of our biggest challenges is that we are

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Speaker 1: trying to get this unanimous yes and unanimous consent, and

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Speaker 1: you say that in the book, you're just like, you're

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Speaker 1: actually dubious when there's unanimous consent, because you're thinking to yourself, well,

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Speaker 1: there must be this can't be good. Then if everyone

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Speaker 1: agrees with it, then this can't be the right idea.

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Speaker 1: And I've found that so refreshing because I think we've

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Speaker 1: been trained to think the other way that if everyone agrees,

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Speaker 1: you're probably onto something, especially people in power. But if

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Speaker 1: people in power disagree with you, you're actually saying, well,

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Speaker 1: there could be something to learn, but there could be

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Speaker 1: an opportunity here as well. One of the things that

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Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about this was is there

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Speaker 1: something have you been able to in your life as

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Speaker 1: an investor applied that or have you sometimes felt that, no,

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Speaker 1: this is definitely not going to work and then something

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Speaker 1: became really successful? Right? Has there ever been a time

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Speaker 1: when you thought, I've thought about this, there's stuff to

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Speaker 1: think about or have you stopped saying no, Have you

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Speaker 1: started saying maybe if when? Or do you still say no? Oh?

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Speaker 1: I definitely still say no. Because the average you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of a general partner of adventure firm looks at

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Speaker 1: six hundred to eight hundred deals a year and says

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Speaker 1: yes to zero to two of them. And now you're

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Speaker 1: generally speaking almost never will you rarely say no in

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Speaker 1: a way that's kind of like no, never talk to

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Speaker 1: me again. That's if someone's kind of just really not

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Speaker 1: the right fit, right, and it's just like, look, don't

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Speaker 1: waste your time, to waste my time, this is good.

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Speaker 1: Frequently you'll say not right now when you try to

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Speaker 1: partner with people and be good for entrepreneurs. The not

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Speaker 1: right now may very well be here's some of the

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Speaker 1: challenges that I have right now, and I hope and

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Speaker 1: anticipate you're going to be really successful, and maybe a

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Speaker 1: future path is a time that we will talk about now.

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Speaker 1: There's a there's kind of this psychological categorization of false

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Speaker 1: spot that as false negatives, otherwise known as type one

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Speaker 1: and type two errors. Very rarely when you're doing things

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Speaker 1: moving at speed like investing, if you're not making both

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Speaker 1: type one and type two errors, both false positives and

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Speaker 1: false negatives, you're not doing the game the right way right,

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Speaker 1: You're you're being too conservative one way or the other.

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Speaker 1: So so if you're too too many positives, then you're

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Speaker 1: not making you know you you then you're making a

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Speaker 1: set of mistakes and too many negatives. You're making a

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Speaker 1: mistake and so um. And so for me, when I

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Speaker 1: kind of look at this as is this kind of

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Speaker 1: like I think entrepreneurship and investing has this kind of

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Speaker 1: yin and yang bringing together that yes and the no,

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Speaker 1: that hey, I could see this vision, but I see

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Speaker 1: the risks. But I put it together and I make

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Speaker 1: a decision, and I think that's part of what we

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Speaker 1: find it to be, you know, kind of super interesting.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's the that's the way I try

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Speaker 1: to balance it, which means that frequently I will say no,

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Speaker 1: although my most often no is trying to be helpful,

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Speaker 1: like like being the like you could almost look at

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Speaker 1: the over the side of the chapter was yes, I

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Speaker 1: know that I'm saying no, but I'm trying to be

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Speaker 1: as helpful as I possibly can to this person who's

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Speaker 1: on this ridiculously hard journey and this is there at

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Speaker 1: the moment their life's treasured work in so doing. And

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Speaker 1: so anyway, that's a long kind of tendrild answer to

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Speaker 1: your question, but I think worth it. No, No, no,

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Speaker 1: great auntswer I'm really glad that you got in the

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Speaker 1: weeds there. Read I appreciate it. On the flip side,

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Speaker 1: read what is what's been one of the most surprising

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Speaker 1: yes is that you've given or you've seen in investing

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Speaker 1: of a company that we may or may not recognize.

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Speaker 1: But what has been the most surprising yes you've ever seen?

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Speaker 1: Heard of? Given yourself that Maybe again, if you looked

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Speaker 1: at it coherently, you would have been like, hmm, it

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Speaker 1: was actually more intuitive. It was more a feeling, it

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Speaker 1: was more an experience. It was more just a gut

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Speaker 1: Has that ever happened? Do you see that? Well? Definitely,

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Speaker 1: because both as entrepreneurs and as investors, when you're at

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Speaker 1: the earliest stages the seed the series A, it's a

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Speaker 1: vision where you don't know how to get from here

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Speaker 1: to there, right you You you've got a theory of

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Speaker 1: the game, but you don't actually know how to get there,

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Speaker 1: and so and so frequently every yes involves a leap

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Speaker 1: of faith, involves a look, I think this entrepreneur, you

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Speaker 1: know she or he, this team, this idea, this time,

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Speaker 1: this technology, Yeah, I think they could get there. And

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Speaker 1: so every yes has a little bit of that characteristic

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Speaker 1: At these very early stage kind of judgments. Perhaps the

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Speaker 1: funniest one was Airbnb, which my very very first investment

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Speaker 1: that I brought to Greylock. And it was at Greylock

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Speaker 1: because David z who was my partner at Greylock, was

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Speaker 1: my most valuable board member at LinkedIn, you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of like converts, convinced me to come join Greylock. And

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, great, and I have a great

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Speaker 1: culture of partner with entrepreneurs and and feeling like you're

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Speaker 1: the invited partner versus you know, the you know, big

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Speaker 1: man on campus as kind of a way of collaborating

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Speaker 1: with entrepreneurs. And so I bring an Airbnb and I'm like, oh,

430
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,440
Speaker 1: I think this is really interesting, and and Vid looks

431
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,880
Speaker 1: at me across the partnership table and says, well, every

432
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,600
Speaker 1: venture capitalist has to have a deal that they fail

433
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,280
Speaker 1: on that they learn from, and Airbnb can be yours.

434
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 1: And so here is this storied, amazing venture investor going oh,

435
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:18,200
Speaker 1: this is a complete idiotic idea, but go ahead, right

436
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 1: and so and I thought about it. Now it wasn't

437
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,159
Speaker 1: so much the intuitive part of the question, but I

438
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,440
Speaker 1: thought about it, and I thought really hard, and I went,

439
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,360
Speaker 1: you know, I still think it's worth doing. So he's

440
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,679
Speaker 1: given me permission to do it, so I'm gonna go

441
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 1: do it right. And by the way, to David's credit

442
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,720
Speaker 1: because he's a learner as well. Six months later, no

443
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:37,359
Speaker 1: change in the data and else. He came to me

444
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 1: and said, you were totally right to make this investment.

445
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 1: What did you see that I didn't see? And I said, well,

446
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:46,680
Speaker 1: you were right. Cities could react. It's a strange experience.

447
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,359
Speaker 1: You know, hotel lobbies are going to react all of

448
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,439
Speaker 1: the stuff. The question is is if they had a

449
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,639
Speaker 1: good plan on all this stuff, and the world they

450
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 1: were building toward was the world we should be living in,

451
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 1: and if they could navigate through those landlines, it would

452
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,640
Speaker 1: be amazing. And so he was like, oh, okay, got

453
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 1: it right, and then you know, off to a more

454
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 1: contrarian but seeking to be right investments. Yes, I love that,

455
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 1: and I love that question that he asked you, like,

456
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:14,920
Speaker 1: what did you see that I didn't see? I mean

457
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 1: that that is such a cumulative wisdom opportunity if you're

458
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 1: if you're always asking that question when you get something

459
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,440
Speaker 1: wrong or make a mistake, or someone gets something right.

460
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 1: I mean the way that that can accelerate your learning

461
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 1: and knowledges is absolutely huge, absolutely beautiful. I love that

462
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,920
Speaker 1: Chapter two is called do things that don't scale? Do

463
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 1: things that don't scale, which, again, you're you're just playing

464
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,199
Speaker 1: with us. Read you're completely playing with us. I'm like

465
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 1: reading a book called Masters of Scale. You're now telling

466
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 1: us things do things that don't scale? What do you

467
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,399
Speaker 1: think most startups do wrong in the early stages of

468
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,680
Speaker 1: their business? What are the biggest mistakes? That question we

469
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 1: were going to be talking for the next three weeks,

470
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,880
Speaker 1: because there are many men any ways to fail. It's

471
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why I mastered the scale. We

472
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 1: try to go, here's an interesting pattern to possibly navigating

473
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 1: the minefield. Here's an interesting pattern, here's a good sensor,

474
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,120
Speaker 1: you know, you know, kind of concepts for doing this.

475
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 1: Part of the reason why we put this in is

476
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 1: because the natural thing and everyone goes, okay, I got it,

477
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 1: scales religion, I'm only going to do things at scale,

478
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 1: and you actually, in fact say, well, actually, every successful

479
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 1: entrepreneurial venture, all of these things that have gotten a scale,

480
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: have done a set of things along the path that

481
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,399
Speaker 1: we're essential to succeeding that we're not themselves scale activities,

482
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 1: and so people might buy into the religion too blindly.

483
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 1: And you actually said, look, I know that I only

484
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,400
Speaker 1: succeed when I really get to the scale, whether it's

485
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 1: the business or climate change or wisdom. But if I

486
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: don't do some things that are kind of experimenting with

487
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,679
Speaker 1: product market fit, taking some experiment and innovation, whether it's

488
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: an organization or go to market, you know, the organization

489
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: of how you run or go to market. If I'm

490
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 1: not doing some of that, I may miss that critical

491
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 1: path that unlocks the journey to magic at scale, the

492
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 1: journey to how this really works in transforming the world

493
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,160
Speaker 1: in society we're living in. And so there's a whole

494
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 1: set of different kinds of techniques where you go, well,

495
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 1: that one scale, so we're never going to do It's like, well, look,

496
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: if you think it's really important, experiment with it, see

497
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,360
Speaker 1: what's doable, and then you go, wow, it's really important. Okay,

498
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 1: so what version of this might I be able to scale?

499
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 1: And that's that's that's essentially the through line through the chapter,

500
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 1: which of course opens with you know Bryan Chusky Airbnb again, Yes, absolutely, yeah, No,

501
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: I think that that again is a really significant note

502
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: because it's it's so easy to just get lost in

503
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 1: the numbers, and I really feel that it's it's even

504
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: with the work I do, I found that ultimately, can

505
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:56,199
Speaker 1: you help one person have an incredible experience? And when

506
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 1: you can do that for one person, you get trusted

507
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 1: to do at ten and then hot thousand, and then

508
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,120
Speaker 1: one hundred thousand and a million and a billion, whatever

509
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: it may be. It's the idea of like, I really

510
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: feel like being able to give one person a unique

511
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: experience and under you just learned so much about that,

512
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,479
Speaker 1: and you learned so I know that any any founders

513
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:16,959
Speaker 1: that I know, they say, you know, they spend all

514
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: their time looking at customer service in the beginning to

515
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: try and figure out, like what part of the journey

516
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 1: were people not truly feeling was working or was flowing

517
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 1: for them. There's such an attention to detail there which

518
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,199
Speaker 1: is often ignored when it's like, oh, we've got this

519
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 1: many stales already, do you know, could you give any examples,

520
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: and again you don't need to name names, Read of

521
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 1: any companies that actually started off right but maybe didn't

522
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 1: apply some of this wisdom and you saw them fall

523
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: laugh and again I'm not trying to point fingers or

524
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: name names. I'm trying to understand more that have you

525
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: seen that where it looks like everything's going great, but

526
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: then there's something that is an external but internal that

527
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: breaks down. Well, there's a number and there some degree

528
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: any of the ones that were super once upon a

529
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: time and then went away web van or you know

530
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 1: kind of all advantage or an early stearch engines excite

531
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: or kind of excited home. There's there's all of these

532
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 1: things that said, look, something broke along that path to scale.

533
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: There's also ones that and like also failed to get

534
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: to scale. There are those patterns as well, and so

535
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: it's a whole set of things where you know, part

536
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 1: of the journey of scaling is the problem changes. Like

537
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: we opened with a discussion of entrepreneurships or entrepreneurs or

538
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: problem solvers. Too often one of the things that happens

539
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 1: to your problem solves, Oh, I solve this version of

540
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 1: the problem. And so I've got the tool, that's the hammer.

541
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: I'm going to keep doing it. And the scale journeys involve,

542
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 1: you know, and that's why we have another chapter Learned

543
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 1: to un learn is changing the tool set up and

544
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: the path that got you here is not necessarily the

545
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 1: path that we get you there, and so sometimes you

546
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 1: have to say, well, that really helped us launch our product,

547
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: but the scale model is actually in fact doing deep

548
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: embedded into SEO and Google, or the scale model is

549
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: moving to telesales and an enterprise model to it to

550
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,679
Speaker 1: bring to my product. And for example, like one of

551
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 1: the things that was not anticipated at LinkedIn is we

552
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 1: thought for the first x years it would all be

553
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 1: individuals only, and we thought individuals would expense their their

554
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: recruiting or their sales or their problem solving to the company.

555
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,199
Speaker 1: But we found that the company started knocking at our

556
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: door almost before we'd launched our subscription product, going well,

557
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: we want an enterprise product, and was like, oh and

558
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 1: by the way, this is kind of classic entrepreneurship, as

559
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 1: we went okay, so we listened. We said, well, that's

560
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 1: different than our plan. How do we measure this, how

561
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: do we have a bias to speed action and learning?

562
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: And we said, okay, well, let's create a PowerPoint deck

563
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: that describes a product. By the way, at this moment

564
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: is totally fictional, like we literally sat around for a

565
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: weekend and said the product could look like this, So

566
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: let's mock it up, create a PowerPoint deck, and then

567
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: go out and say, well, this is a product we're

568
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: working on. What do you think about it? Would you

569
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 1: buy it? Right? And the first salespeople were very entrepreneurial.

570
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: They're not the same as the scale success salespeople that

571
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: LinkedIn has now, but those where they came back and

572
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: they said, well, we got some weird feedback on this one.

573
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: We've changed that, but this is a product we think

574
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: that a waunch of people will initially buy, and so

575
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: then we went and built it. And that's kind of

576
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 1: classic for these kind of entrepreneurial journeys. Yeah, I love that.

577
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: I love that. It's always I find that an all

578
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 1: successful entrepreneur journeys, you see this pivot. You see this

579
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: moment where you're now creating something that wasn't the plan.

580
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: It wasn't the business model, it wasn't the way you

581
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: thought you were going to get to success or scale

582
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: or speed rarely comes from something internally as well, right,

583
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: It comes from how the customers using it, playing with it.

584
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: Who's who's asking the right questions? In chapter three read

585
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: you talk about the big idea? What is the big idea,

586
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: and I feel like and I'm asking this questionably. I mean,

587
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 1: you probably get this question all the time. I think

588
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: it's important to ask it because I do think this

589
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 1: is the majority of people that that I connect to,

590
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 1: that I meet, that I hear when I'm recording the

591
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: podcast is I think I have an idea, but I'm

592
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: too scared to take action on it or take it

593
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: seriously because the whole journey seems overwhelming. Do I have

594
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: to fundraise or not? Do I have the skills or not?

595
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: Are there too many competitors that are doing the same thing?

596
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,959
Speaker 1: Is my idea even original? I saw ten companies like

597
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: this fail last year. These are the things that go

598
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: through our head. And then the most basic one, what

599
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 1: will my friends say when this doesn't work out right?

600
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: Like what will my parents think of me that I

601
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: left my college education to do this or I quit

602
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 1: law to do this. These are the kind of things

603
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: we're hearing all the time. What do you say to

604
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: people when they say that to you, or when you

605
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: see that, or when you hear that? And I get

606
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: that that's a big broad question, but how do you

607
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: try and help people narrow it down? It's a very

608
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 1: complicated question because it comes that lot down to the

609
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: individual and the individual's goals purposes, you know, strategy, risk tolerance,

610
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: what kind of activity they want, and so you have

611
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: to you have to always condition it based on it.

612
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: Now a few general principles which again apply very differently

613
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: depending on you know, kind of kind of who you

614
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: are is, I mean, what circumstances you're in. How much

615
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 1: risk can you take? Entrepreneurship always involves risk. Even if

616
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: you think you've d risk the idea a lot, there's

617
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: always a lot of unknown unknowns, and part of an

618
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: entrepreneurship you have to deal with the unknowns in order

619
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: to in order to do this, I think there's a

620
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: question around you don't do an entrepreneurial idea unless you

621
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 1: can think of yourself doing it for the next ten years,

622
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: because part of success is like would this be worth

623
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: at least ten years of my life in so doing?

624
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: And if not, then great? Not the thing that you

625
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 1: need to do right? And then when you go and

626
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: talk to your friends about it and try to get

627
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: some wisdom of the crowds around how does the thing work?

628
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: You don't ask them do you like the idea? You

629
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: don't ask them do you think it can work, because

630
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: they will think that what you want is reassurance. What

631
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: you want to say what won't work about this idea?

632
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: What could cause the idea to fail? Because if you

633
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: get that feedback and then you begin to aggregate this.

634
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: This also gets back to the learning from nose that

635
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: we were talking about. You aggregate that feedback, then you

636
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: have a better chance at taking smart risks, including choosing

637
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: whether or not to do it. Now. One last little

638
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: kind of kind of pro entrepreneurial tip for people who

639
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 1: are daunted, which is another thing that good entrepreneurs do

640
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: is they kind of figure out how to experiment. So

641
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: you say, well, I've got this idea. It's an idea

642
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: for a new app. Maybe it's an idea for a

643
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 1: mindfulness or wisdom app or something. You say, well, all right,

644
00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: but I'm really nervous about doing this. What could I do? Well?

645
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: I could go buy some you know kind of I

646
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: could go put up a web page, describe what it is,

647
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 1: say click on click on here if you're interested in this,

648
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: and then buy some advertising against it, and then see

649
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: what the clickthroughs look. Click and if the click throughs

650
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: look totally fantastic, then I was like, well, maybe shoot,

651
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: that's data. Maybe I should go do this. And because

652
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 1: I've described alls and if the clickthroughs look bad, then

653
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: you can say, well, maybe I didn't do the experiment

654
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: the right way, or maybe maybe I shouldn't do this

655
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: right And so there's ways to experiment with things. People

656
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: too often get stuck in their mind when when do

657
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: and then reflect? Think, do, reflect, think right and and

658
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: be in that cycle on a relatively quick basis is

659
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: central to solving these unknown, unknown problems. Yeah, I'm so

660
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: glad you added that last piece. I feel like experimenting

661
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 1: is one of the greatest assets in skill and the

662
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: best thing about experiments they can be free or very cheap.

663
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: They can be very quick to do. You don't have

664
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: to build for a year or you know, waste time

665
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: in your life. You could literally build it this weekend

666
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 1: if you felt like it and tested something, and you

667
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 1: get immediate feedback and response from people that are not

668
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 1: connected to your family or your friends, or people that

669
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 1: you feel well, they're saying it because they're connected, or

670
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: they don't like it because I'm their friend and they

671
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 1: know me and they want me to stay safe. And

672
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,760
Speaker 1: so I couldn't agree with you more that I remember

673
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: when I first was starting what I was doing. I

674
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: think experimenting even today has always been my favorite way

675
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 1: of realizing whether I should do something or not. And

676
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 1: I love it because anyone who's sitting there going it

677
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: costs too much? Experimenting is free or cheap. Please remember

678
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: that it takes too long. No, it doesn't. This could

679
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: literally happen this weekend, and oh it's you know, well,

680
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 1: who's going to use it anyway? You have no idea.

681
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,280
Speaker 1: That's the fun of it, And so I'm so happy

682
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: you you've really emphasize that point at the end, because

683
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 1: there's no better way to see whether your idea actually

684
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: has legs. And oh yes, please read go ahead. Yeah.

685
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 1: Let me add one thing to this, which is people

686
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 1: always think experiment is out in the world. Sometimes the

687
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,280
Speaker 1: experiments with yourself too. How does this make you feel?

688
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 1: Do you feel stressed by it? Do you feel energized

689
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 1: by it? That experimentation is also good. We have this presumption,

690
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,959
Speaker 1: because we're in our own heads, that we're the best

691
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: experts of ourselves and the answer, of course, we have

692
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: a depth of experience and all the rest. But actually,

693
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 1: in fact, we have blind spots to ourselves. We have

694
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: unknown unknowns about ourselves, and experimenting is useful there too, Yes,

695
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,720
Speaker 1: for sure, I think that's I mean that deep checking

696
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: with ourselves is potentially when we ignore that it's why

697
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: we're seeking approval and validation from outside because we've not

698
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:54,280
Speaker 1: really sense checked the idea the experience with ourselves. And

699
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 1: I've often found the other way around that I've been

700
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 1: so sure about my decisions and pretty much everyone in

701
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: the room is saying no, but I'm still going to

702
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,240
Speaker 1: do it because I feel so sure. And I've always

703
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: felt that that internal surety and assurance and confidence has

704
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 1: actually made me feel stronger than even when everyone else agrees.

705
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 1: And it wasn't for the same reason as you said earlier.

706
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 1: For me, when I'm in a room when everyone agrees,

707
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: it feels uncomfortable if I am not sure, And I

708
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 1: think often we're trying to make other people's assurances make

709
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,479
Speaker 1: up for our lack of assurance, but that actually never

710
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: works and it never feels right, whereas it's the other

711
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: way around. Your assurance can make up for everyone's lack

712
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 1: of assurance and push the idea through. I see you

713
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 1: nodding and laughing so I feel like, Okay, I'm understanding,

714
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: I'm getting this right. Chapter four read was the one

715
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: that I am most in love with, and it's because

716
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 1: it's where I am at in my journey in terms

717
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 1: of culture for my company, culture for my teams. You know,

718
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,320
Speaker 1: where we've been fast growing for the last few years

719
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 1: across my different ventures and different organizations. We have probably

720
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: around fifty people now, and it's not always people that

721
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: I meet and see all the time. There's people working internationally.

722
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: There's there's people across working across time zones and in

723
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 1: different areas of our company where I have chief operating

724
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: officers and other individuals who manage them more on a

725
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 1: day to day basis. And as someone who is also

726
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,399
Speaker 1: quote unquote using industry language, not seeing myself this way

727
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 1: talent and CEO, it's an interesting position to be in

728
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 1: and it's something that I realize that I spent a

729
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,439
Speaker 1: lot of years trying to choose and figure out which one,

730
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 1: and I only just feel this year I've kind of

731
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 1: figured out how I want to balance the two. And

732
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: so when you're Chapter four is dedicated to what you

733
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 1: call the neverending, ending project, which is culture, and I

734
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,359
Speaker 1: believe I'm on a culture two point zero for my

735
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 1: work and what I'm trying to create. And you talk

736
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: a lot about how your first employees in the company

737
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 1: are important, and you say if your company is dominated

738
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: by one type of person, your collective blind spots will

739
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: add up to tunnel vision, and which I thought was fascinating.

740
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 1: But the part of culture that I find most interesting

741
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 1: is being able to sustain, continually inspire and create a

742
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 1: culture that people also want to be a part of. Now, recruitment, retention,

743
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 1: and reward are all part of that puzzle. Let's go

744
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,879
Speaker 1: through each of them. Let's start with recruitment. What has

745
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 1: been your favorite way of knowing you've made a good hire?

746
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:38,240
Speaker 1: What has been your favorite method, approach tactic to hiring

747
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 1: that has deeply helped all one that you've seen through

748
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: the podcast that you've been blown away by. So I

749
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,800
Speaker 1: think one of the really key things to do well

750
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 1: is to not make hiring a solo journey for you

751
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,280
Speaker 1: as founder or CEO, or for any manager or executive,

752
00:38:56,040 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: but rather make both the hiring decisioning at least moderately

753
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: a group journey, not just because of buying a group

754
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 1: and all arrests, but even if you're like, look, I'm

755
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: hiring a new you know, VP of people. It's it's

756
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 1: the beginning of an organization. But you're like, and that

757
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 1: will report to the CEO. But I wouldn't. Don't just

758
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 1: do it as only the CEO. So that's one part

759
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,240
Speaker 1: in the hiring. But then the next part gets really critical,

760
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:24,879
Speaker 1: which is make other people, like, make a group responsible

761
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 1: for the onboarding, so that part of how a person

762
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: comes up to speed quickly on the culture begins to

763
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 1: add to it is not just the discussions that you

764
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 1: have during the interviewing and reference checking and other kinds

765
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: of things of the process, but also during the initial

766
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:42,839
Speaker 1: parts of the work. Because if you have that, then

767
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,840
Speaker 1: you have the whole or you know, a proxy of

768
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: the organization reaching out and helping without onboarding. And then

769
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 1: that gets the detail of your question, because how do

770
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,439
Speaker 1: you know that you've made a magnificent hire is when

771
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: call it the three people or five people that you've

772
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:05,280
Speaker 1: made jointly responsible for the onboarding. I'll come back and say, Oh,

773
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: this new person she's great. Oh this new person, you know,

774
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: he's really interesting and he's you know, doing well. And

775
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 1: so because then you can say, ah, I've got a

776
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: lot of different touch points. And by the way, of course,

777
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 1: one of the things is if you get three of

778
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 1: them or two of them saying hey, great and the

779
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 1: other two going I don't know, you go, okay, well,

780
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: what's the I don't know? Do I need to make

781
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 1: an adjustment? That's not necessarily an adjustment the person should

782
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:27,919
Speaker 1: meet over the organization. But you want to do all

783
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,839
Speaker 1: the stuff early, right, because you usually when you have

784
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 1: this magnificent partnering between new employees and the organization they're working,

785
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 1: it starts on a very strong foot. It's rare that

786
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 1: it starts on a weak foot and then converts. So

787
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,320
Speaker 1: you want as much of that initial strength as possible,

788
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,919
Speaker 1: and you need the organization to kind of collectively work

789
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 1: at it, and then, by the way, ultimately make a decision,

790
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 1: because like if you go, if you're sixty days in

791
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:57,839
Speaker 1: and you're like, this is a mistake, then you want

792
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 1: to fix the mistakes as quickly but also as humanly

793
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 1: as possible. Yes, yeah, I really appreciate that advice. I

794
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 1: think that's the mistake I made first time around. The

795
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 1: whole recruitment approach was one person led. It was very,

796
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,839
Speaker 1: very difficult to figure it out. And you're so right

797
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 1: that as soon as we switch to a more group

798
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 1: based system, that in effect And it's hard in the

799
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: beginning because sometimes there isn't that bigger group in the beginning,

800
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: it is just you, and so you're kind of relying

801
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 1: on yourself. But I like the idea of including people

802
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: even if they're not full time, even if they're people

803
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: that work with you freelance or part time, that you

804
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: trust and love. You may even have someone involved that

805
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: you value in your personal life as part of the

806
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,359
Speaker 1: interview process. I think that we think of that as

807
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 1: weird or awkward, but it's not at all, because there

808
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 1: may be someone in your personal life who you believe

809
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 1: really understands you and knows you that could help with

810
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,320
Speaker 1: that process. So I think that's a such a great

811
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,399
Speaker 1: way of thinking about it, in such a simple way

812
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 1: of solving the problem. Let's move on to retention. Keeping

813
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 1: that culture, growing that culture, preserving it, expanding it. What

814
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,240
Speaker 1: are certain cultural principles? Every company has their own culture,

815
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 1: and everyone has their own deck, and everyone puts their

816
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,359
Speaker 1: own words on the wall. What is some that you

817
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 1: think are underlying all good company culture? Are there some

818
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 1: key pillars, key themes that you believe are just integral

819
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 1: to any successful company that kind of go beyond industry

820
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 1: boundaries and backgrounds. Well, I think there's patterns that you

821
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: want in every culture. It doesn't assume mean they're instantiate

822
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,320
Speaker 1: the same way. So it's it's kind of the question

823
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: of like what does excellence look like? Here? We always

824
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 1: search search excellence, but what is excellence for us? Like

825
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 1: it should a culture should always be seeking excellence, but

826
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 1: specific not we you seek excellence, but like our excellence

827
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:55,320
Speaker 1: is this sort like we are thoughtful, we are multi

828
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 1: stakehost older inclusive. It's like what are the top priorities

829
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 1: in terms of what you're doing? Another one is this

830
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: is how we define our team play. This is the

831
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,919
Speaker 1: kind of way that we hold each other accountable. Part

832
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,240
Speaker 1: of defining a culture is like, for example, where should

833
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 1: every employee be able to hold the founder or the

834
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 1: CEO accountable? What? What what should they hold that person

835
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 1: accountable for? Like what's the way that we are running

836
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 1: in that? And I think that's part of like what

837
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 1: the pattern of that is? So like are we move

838
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 1: fast or we are take intelligent risks or we are

839
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 1: act like owners? You know, all of these things could

840
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 1: be very good cultural elements, but which one particularly define us?

841
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,360
Speaker 1: And even though there might be a list of twenty virtues,

842
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: part of culture is like, well, these are the ones

843
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 1: we most focus on. These are the ones we most

844
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 1: hold each other accountable to. These are the ones that

845
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 1: were like when we're cross checking, how we're evolving, how

846
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: we're playing the game, how we're getting the scale that

847
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,919
Speaker 1: cross checking is still the thing that with each other,

848
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:01,280
Speaker 1: that drives us for it, and you want to set

849
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: that from the very earliest days. It grows, it can change.

850
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,320
Speaker 1: The mistake that people frequently have a thing about culture

851
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 1: is they think like a culture deck. They think it's like,

852
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 1: you know, the Ten Commandments. You know, it's like it

853
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: comes written in stone, and you're like, no, no, culture evolves.

854
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 1: And so you want to have the right organism, the

855
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 1: right set of people who are adding to it, who

856
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 1: when you when you when you bring in a new person,

857
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 1: they're part of that organism too, also adding to it

858
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 1: and also helping it, you know, adapt and change and

859
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: expand with a foundation but still organic and developing. Yes. Yes,

860
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 1: one of one of the ones that I think work

861
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 1: like that for me was as an entrepreneur, one of

862
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:46,800
Speaker 1: your values naturally is risk taking. It's expression, it's it's failing,

863
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 1: it's figuring it out. And I realized that actually, for

864
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: my team, one of their biggest values was the exact opposite,

865
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 1: and it was safety. And I started to realize how

866
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 1: important safety was to team members. And that blows my

867
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:02,800
Speaker 1: mind because I was just I've never looked for safety

868
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,439
Speaker 1: in my life anywhere, And it's so easy to get

869
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 1: caught up in building a culture that is only for you,

870
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 1: but not everyone can work that way. And I started

871
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 1: to recognize how certain things we did, even though we

872
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: didn't do it to have this impact, it would be

873
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 1: seen as unsafe to someone even though it was never

874
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 1: from that mindset. The mindset was always growth and building

875
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:29,320
Speaker 1: and doing more amazing things. But how not bringing people

876
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 1: on that journey made them feel unsafe. And so that one,

877
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 1: for me was a huge one that I had to

878
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: realize that this idea of being proactive and risk driven

879
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,359
Speaker 1: and all this actually had to be completely reverse engineered

880
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: into a feeling of just safety and support, which was

881
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 1: new to me and byther the nuance of course, which

882
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 1: I'm certain most part of your journey is, which parts

883
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 1: of safety, which were the fundamental it's not safety and

884
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 1: everything safety and everywhere, it's which were the key parts

885
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 1: that are part of this organization, this set of team play,

886
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 1: and that's part of organic cultural evolution. Yes, yes, no,

887
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 1: And that's why. Yeah, I think that that nuance is

888
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,799
Speaker 1: is so clear that we live at a time where

889
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 1: everyone's just like, WHOA should I make a company that's

890
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: risky or that's this, And it's so much more about

891
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 1: embracing polarities than it is about choosing one or the

892
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 1: other blanketly, because that doesn't that doesn't work either. So no,

893
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 1: I love that distinction and so important. Chapter seven that

894
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:30,720
Speaker 1: I wanted to dive in and I'm mixing and skipping

895
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 1: now is you know, watch what they do, not what

896
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 1: they say. And in terms of looking at the customer,

897
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 1: and I find that this is something that some people

898
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: have an innate ability to spot patterns and notice how

899
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 1: people are interacting. And you know, sometimes I feel like

900
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 1: my mind works like an algorithm, and I feel like

901
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 1: my mind's like just connecting darts and stuff. But at

902
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 1: the same time, what are some of the most practical

903
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 1: ways you've seen companies really listen, learn and watch their

904
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,799
Speaker 1: customers or people before they become customers. What have been

905
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 1: some of the most masterful ways that companies have actually

906
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 1: made systematize that. Well, there's a whole set and it

907
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 1: goes from obviously consumer internet, which tends to be the

908
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 1: software telemetry in terms of what's going on, to even

909
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 1: physical hardware like for example, watching on like one of

910
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: the things the earliest things that's taught in design school

911
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 1: from decades ago is watched the unboxing experience. Because while

912
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 1: people you might say what most what did you most love?

913
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 1: What did you most hate, the person may not realize

914
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 1: that the thing that caused them to start on the

915
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 1: wrong foot was like, for example, a weird unboxing experience.

916
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 1: And so the general truth the matter is is you

917
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 1: always want to spend a little bit of time kind

918
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 1: of observing a kind of an unguided and unforced interaction

919
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 1: with the product or service that you're trying to do.

920
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 1: And sometimes you need a lot of time, sometimes you

921
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 1: need a lot of people doing that, but you want

922
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 1: to get some sense of it because if you don't

923
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: have that sense, and some people of course just totally

924
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: natural at that intuition. This is among the you know,

925
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 1: the brilliances of the Steve Jobs and so forth. But

926
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 1: if you don't get that sense, then you could make

927
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:21,240
Speaker 1: some very fundamental bad assumptions, bad judgments. And too often,

928
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:25,239
Speaker 1: very very few of us should totally prioritize. You know,

929
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 1: I am genius, I know the product. It's always like,

930
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:31,320
Speaker 1: you know, be learning, be learning from other people, be

931
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 1: learning from watching. And you know, for example, one of

932
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 1: the things that I think people are underappreciate in the

933
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: kind of the Steve Jobs canon is how much that

934
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 1: every time he kind of found an interesting new product,

935
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: even one that he thought was completely bonkers, he would

936
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 1: invite the founder by for lunch or for breakfast or

937
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 1: for coffee and talk to them because a way of

938
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:54,919
Speaker 1: learning as a way of doing that, and I think

939
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: that is a similar kind of tactile nature of that,

940
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: And so I think that's the that's the thing is

941
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 1: to is to try to get some observation and some engagement.

942
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 1: There is I think critical for every entrepreneur. Wow, And

943
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 1: that's the side of Steve Jobs that's often not talked

944
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 1: about or not often shared, and and you know, it's

945
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 1: it's really fascinating for me. Steve Jobs has been such

946
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 1: a inspiration in so many ways by you know, studying

947
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: his life and studying decisions choices, his spiritual background. You know,

948
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 1: there is such a fascinating individual. And I think again,

949
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 1: when we look at entrepreneurs and where we study entrepreneurs,

950
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 1: it's so important to not start putting them in boxes

951
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: and then trying to choose which personality type we are,

952
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,719
Speaker 1: because people are so much more complex and multilayered and textured.

953
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,479
Speaker 1: Like each interesting entrepreneurial journey is somewhat sui generous. So

954
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 1: while there are archetypes that you should pay attention to,

955
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 1: whether it's union or anything else, the notion of what

956
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 1: you're doing is you're creating something new. And by the

957
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:01,760
Speaker 1: way that you don't want to invent everything across all spectrum.

958
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 1: You want to focus set of new things, usually the

959
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:06,720
Speaker 1: product or service, sometimes in the way you go to market,

960
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 1: sometimes in the way you organize. But one mistake that's

961
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:12,399
Speaker 1: kind of entertaining the entrepreneur's make is they invent new

962
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,320
Speaker 1: on everything. And actually, in fact it is too generous.

963
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 1: It is unique and a specific subset of inventions or

964
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 1: what's key. I love that that's that's that's such an

965
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 1: interesting and new way of thinking. About it as well,

966
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:29,320
Speaker 1: that I don't think that you know, we've all fully

967
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: considered read it. We've got a few more moments left

968
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 1: with you. I've got a ton more questions for you,

969
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna I'm gonna be I'm gonna narrow some

970
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 1: of them down. I wanted to ask you before we

971
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 1: dive into what we called the final five on on Purpose,

972
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 1: which is our fast five. I wanted to ask you.

973
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 1: We were speaking earlier before we came live, and we

974
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: were talking about purpose, and you were talking about how

975
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:53,839
Speaker 1: Masters of Scale is like philanthropic, it's service based, it's extension, right,

976
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 1: tell how important? At what point is purpose important? Is

977
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:01,720
Speaker 1: it important? From the big inning it does? It usually

978
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:04,759
Speaker 1: evolve later for entrepreneurs. Where does it fit into the

979
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 1: puzzle of joy, happiness, success? And where have you seen

980
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:14,400
Speaker 1: it been most beautifully incorporated. Frequently entrepreneurs can make a

981
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:18,839
Speaker 1: mistake here because there they go, Look, there's this market opportunity.

982
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 1: This technology enables this. I see this competitive space opening up.

983
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 1: I see that I could now do this with this

984
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 1: new technology. I could offer this product that's now based

985
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 1: on the cloud, or based on AI or based on mobile,

986
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:34,439
Speaker 1: and that's all very by the way, very important. It's

987
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 1: super relevant to the success of the entrepreneurial journey. But

988
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:42,720
Speaker 1: these entrepreneurial journeys, they're team sports, they're not individual sports.

989
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 1: And as part of the team sport, and part of

990
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 1: the reason why, like whenever you look at any team organization,

991
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 1: sports teams, your military teams and other things, is that

992
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:55,680
Speaker 1: a spree decor that we're in this together and that

993
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:57,759
Speaker 1: it matters that we're in this and that we have

994
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,720
Speaker 1: pride that we're in this. Pride with each other, Pride

995
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 1: with our family, is pride with the society, and that

996
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 1: is all part of having a purpose, part of having

997
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 1: a mission, and so defining that like why what is

998
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:13,799
Speaker 1: the world that we are seeking to make it better?

999
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 1: And by the way, it doesn't have look obviously the

1000
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 1: people trying to cure cancer, it's super important, but there's

1001
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 1: lots of aspects to making society better. This is how

1002
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,799
Speaker 1: we are doing that. This is why the thing that

1003
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 1: we're adding in is so important. And so I think

1004
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 1: that that's important from the very earliest seedling of the

1005
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:38,239
Speaker 1: idea within all of these projects, but especially the entrepreneurial

1006
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:41,280
Speaker 1: where you're trying to build these institutions that help transform

1007
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,759
Speaker 1: society at scale, and so I think it's it's one

1008
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 1: of the things to start with on day zero. That's brilliant.

1009
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 1: I love hearing that. That's music to my ears. Of course,

1010
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:55,360
Speaker 1: I'm the own purpose community because I really believe that it.

1011
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 1: It's always there from the birth of the idea and

1012
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 1: the purposes. What keeps you going and keep you persevering.

1013
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 1: It keeps you through all those crazy late nights and

1014
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 1: early mornings and lack of sleep and the breakdown. Like

1015
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: the only thing that keeps you going is your purpose,

1016
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 1: whatever that may be. So I love hearing that. Now, read,

1017
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 1: I want to ask you the final five. These are

1018
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 1: the fast five where you have to answer the questions

1019
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 1: in one word or one sentence maximum, So you have

1020
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 1: one sentence. Please feel free to play with that. Read

1021
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:28,359
Speaker 1: These are your fast five? Are you ready? I hope

1022
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:32,520
Speaker 1: so awesome? I love it. So the first question I

1023
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 1: have for you is, what is the best entrepreneurship advice

1024
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 1: you've ever received? Make decisions quickly and recover when you

1025
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 1: need to. Nice? Okay, great answer. What is the worst

1026
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 1: entrepreneurship advice you've ever received or given? Persevere against all odds. Oh,

1027
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 1: And the answer is because you need to learn right,

1028
00:53:55,680 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 1: So it is only perseverance. It's also adaptation. Yes, absolutely, pivot, learning, adapting,

1029
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 1: regenerating completely if that's if that's what it takes. Okay.

1030
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 1: Third question, what is something that you once valued that

1031
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 1: you no longer value? Crazy hard work? And what I

1032
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 1: mean by that was it's kind of a youthful thing,

1033
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:19,800
Speaker 1: which is when you're eighteen, you're like, ah, you should

1034
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:21,480
Speaker 1: pull an all nighter, or you should show that you

1035
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 1: could do it by pulling three all nighters. And now

1036
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:27,399
Speaker 1: I'm definitely of the working smart. You have to work

1037
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:31,839
Speaker 1: hard on all these journeys, but working smart is the

1038
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 1: important governor on working hard. I love that great crushing number. Four.

1039
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:40,360
Speaker 1: What's a daily habit that you don't negotiate with that

1040
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 1: you always do no matter what? Adequate sleep? How many

1041
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 1: hours do you sleep? Minimum six with the occasional frequently

1042
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:52,919
Speaker 1: weekends go to eight. Try to have one or two

1043
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 1: nights usually a morning's usually weekends where you don't send

1044
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 1: an alarm and you wake up when your body is

1045
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:00,400
Speaker 1: like okay, I'm ready. Part of this is because we

1046
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 1: go through life, we make decisions all the time. We

1047
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:04,799
Speaker 1: make multiple decisions all the day, and if you're making

1048
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 1: bad decisions, you're gonna error, and so you have to

1049
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 1: be cognitively in the right place, which of course is

1050
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 1: also mindfulness and purpose. But sleep is the baseline. I

1051
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 1: love that that's such a great one, such an important habit,

1052
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,840
Speaker 1: and underestimated. As a monk, I didn't sleep very much,

1053
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:23,759
Speaker 1: but today I sleep is one of my biggest values too.

1054
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:27,240
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more, all right. Fifth and final question, read,

1055
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 1: is if you could create one law that everyone in

1056
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 1: the world had to follow, what would it be? Listen first,

1057
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 1: then speak very very great advice and would be an

1058
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:41,160
Speaker 1: amazing law Read at Hoffman everyone. The book is called

1059
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 1: Masters of Scale, same name as the podcast Surprising Truths

1060
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 1: from the World's most successful Entrepreneurs. You can go out

1061
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:50,920
Speaker 1: and grab it right now. You will not regret it.

1062
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 1: You may want to get it for a friend and

1063
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 1: family member to read again. It has been such a

1064
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:59,759
Speaker 1: joy talking to you, and even through this screen, I

1065
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 1: feel your friendliness, I feel your kindness, I feel your graciousness.

1066
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Speaker 1: It's it's truly special. It's truly special. I've had this

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00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:10,319
Speaker 1: experience and actually the only time. The other time I

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00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:12,400
Speaker 1: had it this week was actually with someone in person,

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00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 1: but with you, I'm feeling it through the screen, which

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00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:17,239
Speaker 1: is really special. So I want to thank you for

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00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:21,400
Speaker 1: being so present, for being so conscious for our community

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00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 1: and our audience today. You've really served them beautifully with

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00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:28,279
Speaker 1: your experience, wisdom, insight. I really really hope everyone goes

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00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 1: and grabs a copy. I can't wait for people to

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00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 1: read it, and I really again hope to see you

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00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 1: in person very soon. So yeah, thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: If any of you've been listening or watching, make sure

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00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,279
Speaker 1: that you tweet, Instagram, tag me and read because we'd

1079
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:44,399
Speaker 1: love to see what are the nuggets wisdom that you're

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00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:47,960
Speaker 1: going to apply, what's the thing that you're practicing, experimenting

1081
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:50,919
Speaker 1: with exploring. I love being able to see what you're

1082
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:54,040
Speaker 1: taking away from these episodes because they helped me understand

1083
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:56,919
Speaker 1: which questions to ask, what to improve, what they make better.

1084
00:56:57,200 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 1: So please please please tag me and read and again,

1085
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:02,520
Speaker 1: and thank you so much for listening to on Purpose

1086
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:05,080
Speaker 1: and read it. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much.