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Speaker 1: Joe came home and he sees me dressed and goes,

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Speaker 1: it's ten and I go, yeah, I gotta go to

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Speaker 1: Brooklyn sign in, get my paperwork done. Four. I'm been

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Speaker 1: assigned to ground zero. No you haven't, Yes, I haven't. Don't.

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Speaker 1: We usually discuss things. I says, yeah, but you've been

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Speaker 1: too busy. And he looked at me and he goes, I

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Speaker 1: don't want you to go, and I said, well, where

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Speaker 1: would you be. We got into the car and he

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Speaker 1: would not speak to me. We got to Brooklyn and

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Speaker 1: he opened the door and he said you sure. I

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Speaker 1: can't convince you. I said, will you stop going? And

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Speaker 1: he got back in the carn and said, I'll see

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Speaker 1: you tomorrow. I said, good. I said, We're not winning

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Speaker 1: any fight here. It's just something I need to do.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney,

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Speaker 2: normal guy. I'm a husband, a father, and an entrepreneur.

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Speaker 2: And I'm a football coach in Inner City Memphis. And

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Speaker 2: the last part unintentionally led to an oscar for the

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Speaker 2: film about our team, it's called Undefeated. I believe our

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Speaker 2: country's problems will never be solved by a bunch of

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Speaker 2: fancy people and nice suits using big words that nobody

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Speaker 2: understands on CNN and Box, but rather by an army

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Speaker 2: of normal folks US just you and me saying hey,

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Speaker 2: I can help. That's what Sonya Agron, the voice we

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Speaker 2: just heard, has done. After the nine to eleven terrorist attacks,

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Speaker 2: Sonya volunteered at the toxic rubble of Ground zero to

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Speaker 2: help support the recovery and clean up of her and

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Speaker 2: this duty she felt that her husband Joe could not

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Speaker 2: stop tragically resulted in a steep personal price that you'll

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Speaker 2: soon hear about. And yet despite that, Sonya would do

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Speaker 2: it all over again, and she's still volunteering through a

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Speaker 2: world of pain. I can't wait for you to meet Sonya.

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Speaker 2: Right after these brief messages from our general sponsors, Sonia,

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Speaker 2: how are you?

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Speaker 1: And I am doing just fine.

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Speaker 2: It is wonderful to meet you. I've been looking forward

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Speaker 2: to talking with you. I've got so many questions for you.

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Speaker 2: But this is an army of normal folks and I'm

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Speaker 2: just looking at this bubbly lady sitting across from me,

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Speaker 2: and to be thinking that I'm speaking to you in

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Speaker 2: the shadow of Freedom Tower right now is even more

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Speaker 2: surreal for me and We'll get into why that's important

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Speaker 2: in a minute, but first come from what'd you grow up?

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Speaker 2: Who is who is Sonya? The little girl?

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Speaker 1: Sonya was born and raised in the South Bronx.

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Speaker 2: In South Bronx.

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Speaker 1: Yes, South.

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Speaker 2: Is there a difference in I'm from Memphis. Yes, it

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Speaker 2: is the difference in North and South Bronx.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, of course North Bronx is on the other

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Speaker 1: side and South Bronx is on the I was saying

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Speaker 1: in the beginning, when you get off the highway, there

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Speaker 1: you are in the South Bronx.

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Speaker 2: Well back when you grew up there is there a

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Speaker 2: difference in the in the nationalities of people.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, no, no. When I grew up, dear lord,

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Speaker 1: we had Italians, Irish, Blacks, Latinos. It's just a real

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Speaker 1: melting augish board of people. And you know, for us,

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Speaker 1: it was like, let's learn how to do this, let's

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Speaker 1: learn how to do that. It was amazing.

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Speaker 2: So it was a microcosm of New York really, absolutely,

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Speaker 2: it was just so beautiful.

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Speaker 1: And it's gone, is it? It is gone.

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Speaker 2: It's lost that identity now.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of places, I would say, except maybe

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Speaker 1: little Italy has lost that culturism that we all were

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Speaker 1: a part of. No, we didn't see racism, we didn't

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Speaker 1: have people talk down to us. It was just it

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Speaker 1: was just one big it was a village.

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Speaker 2: It was a village. And so that's that's and that's

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Speaker 2: where you grew up in. Did you go to school?

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Speaker 1: And yes, I all my life, I went to Saint

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Speaker 1: Pias Elementary School and Pius fifth let's not forget the

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Speaker 1: fish and sat Pious to fifth high school.

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Speaker 2: Got it. And when you graduated high school, what did

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Speaker 2: sonya want to do?

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Speaker 1: Well? Experience at that time taught me I didn't want

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Speaker 1: to be in a Catholic school anymore, and so I

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Speaker 1: turned down college applications and decided to just go work.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be free from all of that guilt

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Speaker 1: that they were putting in you. And I'm like, I

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Speaker 1: can't take four more years of this, which is a regret.

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Speaker 1: It is a regret.

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Speaker 2: But so you went to work.

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Speaker 1: I went to work for an insurance company, and then

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Speaker 1: my mom didn't like that, so she pulled me out

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Speaker 1: and put me in a multi service company that services

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Speaker 1: the entire area for services that the city or the

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Speaker 1: government won't provide.

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Speaker 2: So you grow up in the bronx. Do you have siblings?

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Speaker 1: How, well, I'm the baby, so there's four more.

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Speaker 2: For me, four more before years five?

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just a good old Catholic family having kids.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: What was your what was your mother and father? What

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Speaker 2: they did?

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Speaker 1: Well, my father was a shoe cop that he may choose.

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Speaker 1: This was right after he got out of the Korean War,

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Speaker 1: and he stayed doing that for several years. My mother

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Speaker 1: worked with him, and then sadly, my dad got sick

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Speaker 1: and mom had to stay home and take care of

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Speaker 1: him and us at the same time.

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. Yeah, but you know, it was just

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Speaker 2: didn't know any difference.

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Speaker 1: It was. It was normal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, big tight Catholic family.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Imagine dinner was pretty good, dog.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Okay. What was your mom's best dish?

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Speaker 1: Oh, my gosh, her chicken and rice.

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Speaker 2: Okay, but rice doesn't sound Italian to me, you're starting to.

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Speaker 1: It's not Italian, it's Puerto Rican. Because we would go

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Speaker 1: to the live chicken store and they would, you know,

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Speaker 1: turn the neck of the chicken in the chicken it's

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Speaker 1: called No, we didn't know the butcher did, and then

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Speaker 1: they would defeather him and then we would have homemade

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Speaker 1: chicken soup with the leftover of whatever we put in

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Speaker 1: the rice and the beans.

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Speaker 2: Well, because you said Italian and Irish and everything, well no,

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Speaker 2: I was thinking Italian foods. But so your heritage Puerto Rican, Yes,

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Speaker 2: I got it. So it wasn't just Italian and Irish Porto.

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Speaker 1: I always say Latinos wise he covers everybody.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, wow, what a way to grow up.

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Speaker 1: I loved it.

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Speaker 2: You ended up getting married to this guy, yeah, which

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Speaker 2: was odd.

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Speaker 1: I have known him. He was a family friend and

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Speaker 1: I knew him and he had been married, and he

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Speaker 1: would always talk to me. He just Joe, Joe Agron

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Speaker 1: and he always.

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Speaker 2: As the Bronx. Yes, isn't everybody from the Bronx name Joe.

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Speaker 1: No. There are some places elsewhere there Italian amblehoods. You

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Speaker 1: have a lot of giuseppees there. He was the family friend.

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Speaker 1: And there were times when I would it was a

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Speaker 1: party girl. I would come home and see you.

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Speaker 2: Yes I was, but you're a Catholic school girl.

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Speaker 1: This was way after you know, I found my wings

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Speaker 1: and my only thing was that I love to dance

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Speaker 1: and I love to go out to different restaurants. That's

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Speaker 1: just what the girls wanted to do, and we hated

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Speaker 1: doing that with guys because they would just My husband

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Speaker 1: on midnights would see me leave and then he'd see

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Speaker 1: me come back and he would start lecturing me like

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Speaker 1: a dad. And I used to tell him, my dad's gone,

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Speaker 1: you don't have to be places. And then one day,

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Speaker 1: actually he told my sister that he was interested in me.

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Speaker 1: But I kept turning him away because I didn't want

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Speaker 1: any baggage, you know, married, well, divorce and a child

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Speaker 1: like you know. Plus he wasn't cop. Yeah, he wants

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Speaker 1: and he was so serious all the time. You know.

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Speaker 1: He served during the Vietnam War. His father was a VET.

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Speaker 1: And then his mother pulled the Sullivan Act called the Congressman.

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Speaker 2: Is that I don't want my boy to go he

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Speaker 2: wants to date that guy?

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Speaker 1: Well I did. I didn't because I just felt too

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Speaker 1: much luggage, you know, I don't want that. And then

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Speaker 1: one day my sister said, he has something to tell you,

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Speaker 1: and it came to the apartment and I said, well

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Speaker 1: he's a friend. By now he says, well, there's somebody

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Speaker 1: I like that, you know, and I want to know

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Speaker 1: how should I go about asking her? And I said

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Speaker 1: to you. Yes, So I said, I know this person.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm feeling really mad because I really really did

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Speaker 1: like him, and now he likes somebody that I like,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like oh. And then I said, just tell

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Speaker 1: her you like her and you want to take her out.

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Speaker 1: You want to see how fa this goes? And he

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Speaker 1: repeated and I said, yeah, great, you got it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I want to I like you and I want to

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Speaker 1: take you. I want to see how fa this goes?

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Speaker 1: Yeah great, second time's great. You don't have to do

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Speaker 1: it again. Yes, I do. I like you and I

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Speaker 1: want to take you out and see where it goes.

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Speaker 1: And I just started to mumble, like me, really me,

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Speaker 1: and he had a call. He went back. I went

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Speaker 1: up to me. It's his sister and she said, he

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Speaker 1: does really like you, but you just keep turning him away.

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Speaker 1: And I go, well, what do I do? Now? He's

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Speaker 1: a family friend who dates they're friends. And well, here

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Speaker 1: we are, thirty eight years later.

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Speaker 2: What howld were you?

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Speaker 1: I was twenty two to his twenty nine.

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Speaker 2: Got it? Oh?

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Speaker 1: He robbed the cradle, he surely did, and I always.

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Speaker 2: Robbed the cradle at a party girl, Yeah, cradle.

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Speaker 1: Well that stopped. I got it all out of my system.

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Speaker 2: You know, yeah, we all did, right.

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Speaker 1: He was just a great addition to a life that

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Speaker 1: I wanted to have because I was getting tied of

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Speaker 1: the party.

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Speaker 2: You know what, that story, The whole thing is awesome

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Speaker 2: because this is an army of normal folks and I'm

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Speaker 2: not spending time interviewing fancy smart politicians that used big

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Speaker 2: words that I look, if it's more than three syllables,

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Speaker 2: I have a problem with it anyway, because so and

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Speaker 2: you know, you are a bronx girl one of five,

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Speaker 2: grew up going to Catholic school and didn't go to college,

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Speaker 2: went to work and ended up marrying a.

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Speaker 1: Cop and divorced with a child.

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Speaker 2: Divorced with a child. But you know, I mean, just

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Speaker 2: a just a normal gal trying to forge a life

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Speaker 2: in our country. Absolutely, it's who you are. So half

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Speaker 2: of your marriage is a cop and the other half

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Speaker 2: ends up getting into emergency medical services.

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Speaker 1: I was always working administry. I was working in mcgro hell,

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Speaker 1: different different companies, and one day there on my lunchtime,

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Speaker 1: a woman just collapsed on the street. Remember we didn't

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Speaker 1: have cell phones any of that, and people just walked

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Speaker 1: by her and are you seriously. Oh yeah, that's.

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Speaker 2: I've heard those stories. But when you say walk by,

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Speaker 2: you mean acted like they didn't even see the person.

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Speaker 2: And I see that that makes me crazy.

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Speaker 1: That was to me disgraceful because it has just been mother,

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Speaker 1: and she was could have been anybody I knew, even

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Speaker 1: someone well I didn't know, and she was she must

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Speaker 1: have had a fainting spell, but she was confused. She

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Speaker 1: was sitting on the sidewalk, and you know, I called

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Speaker 1: there was a steak shop and I screamed out and

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Speaker 1: I said, can you call nine one one please? And

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Speaker 1: I asked a question.

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Speaker 2: So did you go neil by her?

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Speaker 1: I stood by her and I asked her to give

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Speaker 1: me numbers to see if there was anyone I could call.

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Speaker 1: And all she did was hold my hand. She was trembling,

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Speaker 1: and she said, I just got a little think. They said,

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Speaker 1: are you sick? I asked her all these questions and.

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Speaker 2: Of course you have no training.

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Speaker 1: This is what you're supposed to do a kind you know.

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Speaker 1: I was just sad for her that I didn't know

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Speaker 1: if she had family not. But what if she didn't,

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Speaker 1: how would she get home? How would anyone help her?

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Speaker 1: And so they called the ambulance and I stayed with

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Speaker 1: her and I just jotted down on a napkin everything

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Speaker 1: she had told me, and this was a number in

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Speaker 1: case she passes out. And I wasn't allowed to go

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Speaker 1: on the bus at the time.

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Speaker 2: That was but that was kindness. But did that spark oh?

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Speaker 1: Oh? Oh? Immediately I started looking up medical jobs and

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Speaker 1: at that time, you had to take a training for

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Speaker 1: e KG. Then you had to take a training for

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Speaker 1: being a phlebotomist. Then you had to take a training

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Speaker 1: for this. And I had all my certificates and I

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Speaker 1: still wasn't happy. And so my husband, he would become

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Speaker 1: my husband. Then he would say, well, why don't you try,

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Speaker 1: you know, EMS or the police department. And I tried

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Speaker 1: the police department, went through everything, and I guess my

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Speaker 1: husband didn't think I would manage, and he said, oh, no,

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Speaker 1: there's only room in this family for one. You make

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Speaker 1: me nervous. I would always worry about who are you

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Speaker 1: going to go after? And I said, so I'm going

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Speaker 1: to go EMT school. It's it's what I wanted.

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Speaker 2: May not have wanted his wife to have a gun

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Speaker 2: at the house.

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Speaker 1: He didn't, Yeah, no, he didn't. I mean when he

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Speaker 1: was The decision was made by me when he took

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Speaker 1: me to the rain and I had to shoot, and

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Speaker 1: I said, yeah, no, there's no way I'm ever going

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Speaker 1: to do that. I'm not comfortable with that. No, you know,

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Speaker 1: I can't run fastes. But it led to it led

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Speaker 1: to me going to EMS, and when I graduated, it

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Speaker 1: was one of the most proudest days of my life

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Speaker 1: because now I'm accomplishing something, not just working for money

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Speaker 1: and put a roof over my head, and it was

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Speaker 1: if I was able to go back, I would go

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Speaker 1: back in a heartbeat. I love that job.

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Speaker 2: And now a few messages from our general sponsors. But first,

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Speaker 2: we're now offering premium memberships for the Army of Normal Folks.

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Speaker 2: For ten bucks a month. You receive special benefits such

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Speaker 2: as being invited to a private yearly call with other

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Speaker 2: premium members and me, access to monthly Ask Me Anything episodes,

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Speaker 2: and occasional bonus audio. If you're interested in this, I

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Speaker 2: hope you got to Normal Folks dot us and click

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Speaker 2: on Premium. But guys, that's really not what it's about.

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Speaker 2: You get all that cool stuff, and we're going to

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Speaker 2: provide all that stuff, But the truth is we're trying

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Speaker 2: to grow the Army of Normal Folks and have a

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Speaker 2: greater impact on the country, and with the premium memberships,

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Speaker 2: we can fuel our marketing efforts to grow it. This

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Speaker 2: podcast peaked at number ten on Apple's podcast chart and

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Speaker 2: all of the US, which is absolutely crazy, and it's

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Speaker 2: not about me, It's about the guests and it's about you.

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Speaker 2: So we've decided to set an exciting new goal of

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Speaker 2: trying to be on Apple's Top Shows chart for our

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Speaker 2: entire first year, which will mean more at tension, more listeners,

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Speaker 2: more Army members, and most importantly, more impact. But we

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Speaker 2: need you as always, so go to Normal Folks dot

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Speaker 2: us and click on premium if you're down to help.

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Speaker 2: If not, just keep listening. We'll be right back. So

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Speaker 2: here we go. And then at some point, you guys

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Speaker 2: have a daughter.

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Speaker 1: I think we had a daughter in Gee you make

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Speaker 1: me go too far back on nineteen eighty five. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So she's in the thirties now.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So what we have is we've got Joe and

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Speaker 2: Sonya married with a daughter. One's a cop, one's an

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Speaker 2: e MS person, and you guys are just doing the

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Speaker 2: doing the life right for us. That was it. Well,

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Speaker 2: that's a great life. Everything's normal, and your cruising down

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Speaker 2: normal Americana Street. Absolutely, live in the dream. Absolutely, And

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Speaker 2: nine eleven comes.

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Speaker 1: Well. I was retired by then, but because of an accident,

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Speaker 1: and I just became a perpetual volunteer. Anyway they needed help,

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Speaker 1: that's where I was. So nine to eleven was my

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Speaker 1: husband's fifty first birthday, and that morning his only job

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Speaker 1: I assigned him jobs was to take our daugh to

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Speaker 1: the school, come home, turn on the TV, and relax

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Speaker 1: until I got back. I was in Manhattan. We were

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Speaker 1: going to celebrate his day, and I was in the

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Speaker 1: NBC building and we were told to evacuate. Nobody was

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Speaker 1: telling us why. I'm thinking gas leak. I'm in New York.

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Speaker 1: I know how this works. And then wall to wall

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Speaker 1: people fighter jets, and I knew something was wrong.

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Speaker 2: Oh you saw the fighter jet was gass This is

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Speaker 2: in midtown.

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Speaker 1: And suddenly my cell phone rang up. And the only

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Speaker 1: odd thing about that in our family, we didn't we

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Speaker 1: didn't want everyone to have a cell phone. So whoever

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Speaker 1: went out that day got the cell phone got it.

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Speaker 1: So I got it, and he called me and he said, listen,

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Speaker 1: to me, carefully, we're at war, we're under attack. You

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Speaker 1: need to take the next bus out and stay away

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Speaker 1: from the trains. But we got it cut off.

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Speaker 2: Was he worried that the trains were going to train

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Speaker 2: traces should be bob He said that because this is fresh,

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Speaker 2: it's just happened.

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Speaker 1: Well, he had, he had done a lot of training

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Speaker 1: for disorder control and that include biohazard things, and he

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Speaker 1: was he didn't change.

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Speaker 2: Was he on the job on the first failed attempt?

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Speaker 1: Yea, and yes he was. So when he came home

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Speaker 1: that day, that the day after, and I don't think

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Speaker 1: I'll ever forget the look on his face. He said,

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Speaker 1: they're not done. They'll be back, and we better be

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Speaker 1: prepared because they're going to do more damage than they

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Speaker 1: did that.

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Speaker 2: So when it really happened, his call to you was

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Speaker 2: he knew, And I guess I guess you had to

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Speaker 2: have known.

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Speaker 1: I know at first I thought ghastly, but when I

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Speaker 1: saw I couldn't even turn around. There were so many

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Speaker 1: people right, and I saw the fire fighter jets, and

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Speaker 1: I thought we were in deep trouble. But I never

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Speaker 1: thought it was the World Trade Censer because they hit

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Speaker 1: it once.

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Speaker 2: So I said this, and so when he when he

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Speaker 2: called you and said don't take the or listen to

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Speaker 2: me carefully and it got cut off, did you know

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Speaker 2: then it was the World Trades and you still didn't know.

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Speaker 2: All you knew was all hell was breaking loose somewhere,

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Speaker 2: and your husband, who had a drugt line being a

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Speaker 2: cop to what was going on, was telling you to

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Speaker 2: go home, and that was all you knew then. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and then which says to me, I mean, how many

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Speaker 2: not the exact number, but how many people on a

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Speaker 2: given day or run around Manhattan?

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Speaker 1: Oh, thousands, millions, not more than that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So I'm thinking of you standing there with

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Speaker 2: a group of people of sirns going off. There are

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Speaker 2: literally millions of people who at this point, unless you're

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Speaker 2: at the World Trade Center on this island, you really

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Speaker 2: don't know what's going on. It's a lot of confusion.

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Speaker 1: We thought of bombs.

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Speaker 2: We thought what kind of bombs, like somebody dropped a

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Speaker 2: bomb or somebody bombs.

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Speaker 1: We're thinking of nineteen ninety three, somebody put a bomb

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Speaker 1: in a building. There are going to be several buildings.

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Speaker 1: That's why they evacuate us. Because we wanted the tallest building.

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Speaker 2: And I'm imagining this. If you're standing in this group

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Speaker 2: of people all pushed out, there's fighter planes up there.

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Speaker 2: People are probably all getting calls from someone who's closer

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Speaker 2: to it, so you probably are all talking to each

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Speaker 2: other about you know, what is this? What is this?

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Speaker 1: We're hearing? I'm hearing it. But my goal was no,

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Speaker 1: I don't do everything my husband tells me to do,

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Speaker 1: but when he tells me get out or duck, that's

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Speaker 1: what I do. And I ran to the bus stop

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Speaker 1: and it was like a ghost town. Buses kept driving.

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Speaker 1: There was nobody in there. They were not allowed to

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Speaker 1: pick up anybody because the city had.

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Speaker 2: Shut down, so the buses weren't nothing, which which leads

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Speaker 2: me to the images of all the people. I remember. Look,

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Speaker 2: I'm from Memphis, okay, and I believe rarely, but sometimes

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Speaker 2: there are things that happen that affect our national consciousness.

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Speaker 2: And a guy from Memphis and a gal from the

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Speaker 2: Bronx are rarely brought together and become kindred spirits as Americans.

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Speaker 2: But that day did. And I remember where I was

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Speaker 2: on that day, and and but my reality is from

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Speaker 2: images that the news. Like most Americans, we weren't here.

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Speaker 2: But I do remember the picture of all these people

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Speaker 2: walking across the bridge, and I always thought, why are

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Speaker 2: they walking? And of course they can't catch cab or

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Speaker 2: maybe they can't get to the car. But now just

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Speaker 2: now understand one, you're afraid to go on the subways

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Speaker 2: and the trains because I guess as New York as

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Speaker 2: your train, that's a pact.

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Speaker 1: We didn't have a choice. The mayor had shut down,

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Speaker 1: the shut down the trains, everything.

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Speaker 2: So you couldn't even get on a bus. So the

401
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Speaker 2: only way to get the hell out of here was walk.

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00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,160
Speaker 1: Walker jump into the Hudson.

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Speaker 2: River, which is probably advise.

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Speaker 1: Tom hak No. Tom Hank has a beautiful story that

405
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 1: he does on YouTube where it's called the Unsung Heroes,

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00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 1: where many people bought their pleasure boats. Even they across

407
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 1: across and people were jumping in, they didn't realize when

408
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 1: they got out of the buildings that if they went upwards,

409
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,879
Speaker 1: that was the end of Manhattan. People were able to

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00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 1: get through all the bridges and tunnels, but if you

411
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,160
Speaker 1: got out and ran to your left, you were stock.

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Speaker 1: That's the end of Manhattan. So many friends of mine

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Speaker 1: actually tell me the story of how they jumped in

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Speaker 1: the water. They they just kept seeing all these images

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Speaker 1: and they needed to get out. They didn't care how,

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Speaker 1: And that's desperation, that's fear.

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Speaker 2: So Joe calls and says, listen to me where or

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00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,480
Speaker 2: don't get in the trains and find a way to

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Speaker 2: get home, basically, and you do, but you don't hear

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Speaker 2: from them.

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Speaker 1: I don't find a way to get home until maybe four.

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Speaker 1: I'm stuck, and I guess my training kicked in. Where

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00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 1: would I find accurate information because too many people were

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Speaker 1: saying too many things and that wasn't accurate. And I decide,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go to a hotel. I'm gonna they

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Speaker 1: have to have TVs and I'm going to be able

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Speaker 1: to hear clearly. And when I sat down at that point,

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00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 1: I don't even remember their time, but I'm going to

429
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Speaker 1: assume it was the South Tower that went down. And

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Speaker 1: then I'm just sitting there and shot, is it a

431
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,360
Speaker 1: replay or what? And it must have been a replay

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Speaker 1: because now we're hearing about Shanks fit well, we're hearing

433
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Speaker 1: about the Pentagon, and then the North tower go, uh no,

434
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,159
Speaker 1: then the South tower does, so then it was a

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00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:47,919
Speaker 1: North tower. You see how hard that is for me

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Speaker 1: to figure out. That's one thing that bothers me. Sometimes

437
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 1: My memory is I write things down and when I

438
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: saw all this happen automatically, it clicks when he says

439
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 1: we're at war, because I didn't understand when he said

440
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,119
Speaker 1: it to me, and I said, well, where is he

441
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 1: calling me from? That he knew so much information, And

442
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 1: at that moment, I thought he's gone, and I realized

443
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,159
Speaker 1: he was down there. I didn't think anything about my daughter.

444
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,679
Speaker 1: I was just trying to absorb the fact that my

445
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 1: husband was gone on his birthday. And I continued to

446
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,679
Speaker 1: watch and watch, no phone calls, nothing, And at the

447
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: bottom of the TV the mayor put out a message

448
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,479
Speaker 1: that he was opening up the city for about an

449
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 1: hour or two and I ran, got a cab, got home,

450
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 1: and now I'm thinking, I don't have my car, How

451
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 1: do I get to my daughter? Where is my daughter's phone?

452
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: Aren't phones aren't working? Now what? But when I got home,

453
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 1: she was there, and I realized at that moment he

454
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 1: must have picked her up. When he heard the very

455
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 1: first account it hadn't been It was alleged that plane

456
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 1: had hit the building. We didn't have any other news.

457
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,479
Speaker 1: He picked up his keys because he knew, this is it,

458
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 1: this is what we've been waiting for for eight and

459
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 1: a half years. And he picked our daughter up, dropped

460
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: her off, and she was sitting there and she watched everything,

461
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 1: and when mom didn't come home.

462
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 2: She's she's wondering if she's lost her family.

463
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, she thought I went to respond because even though

464
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 1: I was retired, once a first responder, always a first responder.

465
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: We don't give that up.

466
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 2: So when you walk.

467
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 1: In, she thought I was a ghost.

468
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, she was like she was being shocked. But what's

469
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 2: interesting then, now you and your daughter are there. Now

470
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 2: the two of you are wondering about Joe.

471
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 1: And that actually didn't last until maybe five because he

472
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 1: did call, but his voice was different. I've answered jobs

473
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 1: with my husband and I know his voice. And he's saying, baby,

474
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 1: it's bad. It's dark and I'm looking out my window.

475
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 1: Where are you that it's so dark? And he says

476
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 1: it's a war zone. I can't see my hand in.

477
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,160
Speaker 1: His voice is so different than anything I've ever heard,

478
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 1: and I can hear the background radio and he says, listen,

479
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 1: it's it's really bad. I sometimes I don't even know

480
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 1: where I am and I have to collect my thoughts.

481
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,479
Speaker 2: Did he say I'm at this tower that?

482
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: No, he said I am. He said, I'm getting a

483
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: break at ten and I will call you. Then I

484
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 1: am near Tower seven setting up for the National Guard.

485
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: Got it and the tower seven collapsed, Yes, collapsed, he

486
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:35,880
Speaker 1: calls you.

487
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 2: Tower seven is still standing and he's setting up for

488
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 2: the National Guard. And all you know is it's bad,

489
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 2: and you know your strong cop husband.

490
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: But I'm good because daddy's okay.

491
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 2: But you hear in his voice and I'm serious.

492
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 1: Of the site, you know, I know Tower seven's across

493
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 1: the street. And at one point after that, the phone

494
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: rings again. There's no service, but he got because of

495
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: next hell the walkie talkie phones. And the next thing,

496
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: I get another call and I'm like, okay, he needs

497
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,239
Speaker 1: to talk again, which we were so happy to hear.

498
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,159
Speaker 1: And it was a friend from out of town. And

499
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 1: now she's talking. I realized, wait a minute, she got through,

500
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: and I'm giving her everybody's number at home. Call them.

501
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 1: I can't get through. You can watch TV. Everything is

502
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: now live. He's near how A seven, and that's when

503
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 1: I was informed how I seven went down and I

504
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 1: don't remember how we hung up. I just remember grabbing

505
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: my daughter because she was saying, how horrible is this

506
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: that we were allowed to say I love you and

507
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,199
Speaker 1: happy birthday and he's gone. And it was that moment

508
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: that I needed her to realize. I couldn't be anybody

509
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 1: but a mom at that time, and I needed her

510
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 1: to understand that there were thousands of people that were

511
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: never going to get that basketbye. And we did. And

512
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 1: I said, we're going to hold on to that because

513
00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 1: if he called, and he said he's calling, it ten

514
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: and he's gonna call. So we sit, we pray, and

515
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 1: we do whatever we can so spiritually we can bring

516
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: people back home. And we did that.

517
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 2: He called, and so we thought he was you know,

518
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 2: you've lost your husband, and your daughter knows she's lost

519
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 2: her father.

520
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: I didn't tell her, I am well, she knew. What

521
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,479
Speaker 1: I kept telling him was come on, you know, he's busy.

522
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: This tower just went down. He's running.

523
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 2: You're trying to reassure her, which is a bunch of

524
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 2: bs because inside your heart and head.

525
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 1: I had to be a mom, I get it. I

526
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: couldn't see her. What good was it that all both

527
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: of us were freaking out. And then I just remembered

528
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: thinking I didn't wanted daylight to come because that meant

529
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 1: I was adow and I would be a single mom.

530
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 2: But there's a twist of the story, which.

531
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: Is he came home. He came home. I didn't recognize him.

532
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:56,959
Speaker 1: He was covered in that grace, so he just managed

533
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: to watch his face and my husband came home, but

534
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: his heart and soul was back there. He couldn't talk.

535
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: It was just totally he was not the man I

536
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: kissed goodbye the day before, and he wouldn't speak much

537
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: except to say that he was injured and I had

538
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: to fix him up.

539
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 2: What was his injury?

540
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: He had fallen down about four flight The floor was

541
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: actually very weak. He had fallen down about four flights

542
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: of stairs, and it looked like, oh.

543
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 2: Whoa, whoa, wha, wha. Let me get this and let

544
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,239
Speaker 2: me just say this now and to our listeners and

545
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 2: to you, and I think, now it's a good good

546
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 2: time for me to get on my soapbox for a minute.

547
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 2: Nine of them. For people probably thirty five years and older,

548
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 2: we remember where we were, and it's kind of like

549
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 2: all my grandparents always talked about. They remembered where they

550
00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 2: were during Pearl Harbor and then the next generations along,

551
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 2: and certainly they know historically what happened at Pearl Harbor,

552
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 2: but they didn't feel it, not like my grandparents did.

553
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 2: And I still, before we sat down for our chat today,

554
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 2: I walked around the corner and I looked up at

555
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 2: the building, and I just I don't want to sensationalize

556
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,239
Speaker 2: the story for the purposes of trying to make a

557
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 2: podcast that is interesting, and so that's not what my

558
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 2: next questions and thoughts are going to be about. But

559
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 2: in the same respect, I feel like everybody in their

560
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 2: young thirties, mid thirties, to my children, they see every

561
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 2: year in the anniversary of nine to eleven the images

562
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 2: on TV, and they know two buildings were hit by

563
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 2: planes and they burned down, but they don't feel what

564
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 2: I felt. And they sure as hell don't feel what

565
00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 2: you felt being here. And I feel like if we

566
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 2: lose that collective consciousness as a nation, we risk a lot.

567
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 2: And so I'm going to ask you some questions. But again,

568
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 2: it's not to sensatialize it. It's because I want our

569
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 2: listeners to try to feel this. And he came home

570
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 2: with soot all over him. And you say he fell

571
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 2: down four flights of stairs, but how do you fall

572
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 2: down four flights of stairs?

573
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: Floors were very weak. I still don't know the building

574
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: he was in or.

575
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,719
Speaker 2: If it was just it had to have been near seven.

576
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I don't even know when he fell. I

577
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: don't know where he felt. Because my husband hasn't spoken well.

578
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 2: Something had to have collapsed for him. Yeah, so he

579
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 2: was in a collapsing building.

580
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: Somewhere, but he can never get there to tell me.

581
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 2: Okay, but I saw still to the stay. I can't speak.

582
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 1: It's a lot he won't talk about.

583
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 2: I understand, but I did find TSD right.

584
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: We didn't even know we had it. I understand, we

585
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: didn't know we had it.

586
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 2: But so he fell and he came. When he came home,

587
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 2: it was not a joyful reunion, and he's blank from

588
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 2: what he's witnessed. But he wants you to fix him up.

589
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 2: Why didn't he just go to the hospital.

590
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: Well, he couldn't because they would have reported it back

591
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: to NPD and then n MYPD would not have allowed

592
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 1: him to go back to the set.

593
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 2: So he came to his wife, who has this emergency

594
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 2: medical training. It says, fix me so I can go back,

595
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 2: because if I go to the hospital.

596
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: They wouldn't.

597
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 2: I can't go back and serve and hohole.

598
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: Goal was to save somebody, and he didn't. And that's

599
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: always what he did.

600
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 2: What was wrong with him? What was his He?

601
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 1: When I cut his pants off, he had a very

602
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: deep gash on the side of his knee and it

603
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: looked like his knee had moved and it was It

604
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: looked horrible. And I told him that's above my pay grade.

605
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: And he says, who you don't have to fix it,

606
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: but I'm going back. And I just took out my

607
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: kit and did butterfly stitches and taped him up, and

608
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: I said, you have to go to the dock.

609
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 2: Did you have novocaine or anything?

610
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: Nothing? Nothing.

611
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 2: You stitched him up butterfly stitches.

612
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: They're not actually a needle and thread, they're just butterfly stitches.

613
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: I held the skin together and crossed them over. I

614
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: put a ton of mactration and I covered him as

615
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 1: best as I could, and I said, you need to

616
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: go because this is going to get infected. You're going

617
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: to get infected in that side.

618
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 2: So did he get did he what did he do? Shower,

619
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 2: get a bite.

620
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: To eat them, leave, took a shower, didn't heat, sat

621
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: on the sofa, and he goes, Okay, this is my schedule.

622
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: I'm going We were speechless, like, why are you going back?

623
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 1: Didn't you fulfill your This is how we're thinking, and

624
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: he's saying, Oh, this is not going to happen. We're

625
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: not going to fix this up in twenty four hours. Honey,

626
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: I don't even know if we're going to back from this.

627
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 2: We'll be right back. So Alex Arstein, producer does really

628
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 2: good work on prepping stuff, and in that prep I

629
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 2: read that he did say, very briefly, it's bad. The

630
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 2: stench is horrible. Soot is everywhere and body parts. Is

631
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 2: that am I paraphrase?

632
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 1: No, No, you're not. He I should avoid it. I'm sorry.

633
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: There's a picture of him standing in front of Brooks

634
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: Brothers with his sergeant and that's a clothing store and

635
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaker 1: he had to bring his team in through seven several

636
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: areas that the police department had cleared, and he was

637
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: kicking a couple of things that he thought were mannequins

638
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 1: and they won't and his heart breaks because he said,

639
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: I didn't get to bring anyone home. That one thing

640
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 1: I kicked could have been closure for a family member,

641
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 1: and it was all over the place, and he just

642
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: to this day he even wonders about his partners. Were

643
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: they in pieces? And it's hard not to think about that,

644
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 1: because that's something people don't know.

645
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 2: No, and see, that's just gut wrenching. But I feel

646
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:33,399
Speaker 2: like it's something I've heard so many interviews and read

647
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 2: so much about. But we don't talk about this enough,

648
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 2: in my opinion, because as hard as this is to

649
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 2: think about and hear, if you don't understand this, you

650
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:47,320
Speaker 2: don't understand the depth of this attack.

651
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 1: No they don't.

652
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 2: Why were their body parts on the ground.

653
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: When the buildings went down? They went down hurricane win forces.

654
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: So we have one hundred and ten floors. We were

655
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:07,240
Speaker 1: losing ten floors per second. So those towers went down

656
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 1: in twelve seconds, and so if you were in the way,

657
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 1: you were pularized. And this was mostly from the top.

658
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,919
Speaker 1: Maybe as the towers kept going down, it just took

659
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: people win them. Some whole bodies were found, but not

660
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 1: until months later. And you were I hate to save

661
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 1: you lucky, but if you were in the higher floors,

662
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 1: there was a chance they would find a good portion

663
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: of your body if you won the lower floors, there

664
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 1: was no chance.

665
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 2: What if you were just outside the buildings. If it

666
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 2: was her case, for the sheer power and energy created

667
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 2: by the falling building, even if you were one hundred

668
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 2: feet or two hundred feet away from the actual rube,

669
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 2: you would have built in a way the wind would

670
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 2: rep people who.

671
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: Were on the cars. At one point, when my husband

672
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 1: called earlier that I kept hearing him do a spitting sound,

673
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 1: which you know, like what are you doing? And he says,

674
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: I'm just pulling concrete stuff that came in my mouth

675
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: when the second tower went So now I know he

676
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: was there for the second tower going down, and he

677
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 1: won't talk about anymore. I know that I heard him

678
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 1: tell one of his friends, which I had made a

679
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 1: point to bring a lot of his friends back into

680
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 1: his life, where he says, you know, what could I

681
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:37,919
Speaker 1: do but run? This cloud was chasing us and that's

682
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 1: what he was talking about the darkness. And he kept

683
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: saying I never seen anything like this before.

684
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 2: And do they feel some kind of weird guilt because

685
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 2: they had to run?

686
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, my husband does, how are they going to do? Well?

687
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 2: Just stand there and die.

688
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 1: That's what I told him, and he said it was

689
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 1: coming after us. And as I'm running, I'm trying to

690
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 1: get people around with me. But he would feel guilty.

691
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 1: He would start feeling guilt about two or three weeks

692
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,320
Speaker 1: later when the mayor finally said it was no longer

693
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 1: rescue and recovery was just recovery. And that's when he

694
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: had to accept his friend was gone, his partner, He

695
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 1: trained with him, did a lot of things with him.

696
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: And he goes, I can't accept that he's gone, and

697
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 1: I'm not. And as a wife, I wanted to tell

698
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: him that's kind of a blessing you live to talk

699
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: about it, and he goes, I'm not talking about this.

700
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 1: No one would ever believe it because we're cops. This

701
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 1: is our job.

702
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 2: So the firefighters, the police, the port authority, all the

703
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 2: first responders there that day. Again not to sensationalize it,

704
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 2: but I mean, before the buildings fell, there were people

705
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,320
Speaker 2: on the top of these towers that had a choice

706
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 2: to make, which is is die by my flesh melting.

707
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 1: Jump and they did.

708
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 2: And I remember reading something that said that one of

709
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 2: the most terrific sounds of the day was the thud

710
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:15,839
Speaker 2: of bodies hitting the ground.

711
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 1: And they are where you hear that. With the five

712
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,879
Speaker 1: there are videos where you hear that the firefighters are

713
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 1: looking up and you can hear the thud. And we

714
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 1: had one of those videos at the nine to eleven

715
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 1: Tribute Museum and we turned the sound off because family

716
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 1: members would come to visit the museum and we didn't

717
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: want them to think, was that my son, my mother,

718
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: my daughter, So we had to thud. Yeah, we didn't

719
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: want to do that. And then we also had an

720
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 1: airplane window and we didn't identify what plane it was

721
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: because we didn't want any family member to come in

722
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 1: and wonder if their loved one was sitting next to

723
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 1: that window.

724
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 2: And so these first responders, the ones that survived.

725
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: The day, they're not surviving.

726
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 2: They survived that day, I.

727
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: Will tell you. They started dying on nine to eleven.

728
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 1: So we didn't know. And you know, first the PTSD

729
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: gets you. Then you have the we call the World

730
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: Trade Center mark. It's a cough we all have when

731
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: we wake up in the morning or soon after that.

732
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,439
Speaker 1: We were pulling things out of our nose that were

733
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: dark and slimy. We just didn't understand and then we

734
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 1: had our own government tell us the air quality was safe,

735
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 1: and that's because Wall Street had to open, so you know,

736
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 1: they needed the money, but money was more important in lives.

737
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 2: We're going to get to that in a second, because

738
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 2: that's part of the beauty of what you've done with this.

739
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 2: But again, not to overdo it, but the bottom line

740
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 2: is if you survived the day and your first responder,

741
00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 2: now what you're doing is you're literally stepping over not

742
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 2: just you're not just cleaning up debris and rubble. You're

743
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:08,720
Speaker 2: cleaning up pieces of human beings. You're cleaning up horrific

744
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 2: things that we are that caring, loving human beings just

745
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 2: can't ever unsee or unfeel.

746
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: Can unring a bell, right, I just can't.

747
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 2: Okay. So for those of you who are listening and

748
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 2: think nine to eleven was just about two planes flying

749
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 2: into two buildings because some terrorists decided to attack us,

750
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:41,720
Speaker 2: that's true. But the other truth is that more people

751
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 2: have died as a result of the cleanup, and since

752
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,320
Speaker 2: the day of nine eleven, the actually died on the

753
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 2: day of not just true. So the truth is the

754
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 2: attack is not quit killing. Even these twenty something years later, nine.

755
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 1: To eleven didn't end for us. Nine to eleven didn't

756
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 1: end for us.

757
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 2: It's still continuous, continuing to stop, and.

758
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 1: We are told, especially some lives. I have two stories.

759
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 1: My husband is sick and I was recovery worker. I'm sick.

760
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 1: But when people don't know that, and they know that

761
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 1: Joe was there, they go, what are you crying about?

762
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,479
Speaker 1: He came home, and then they make.

763
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 2: You probably reliving it every single well.

764
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: They don't know that. They just feel I'm ungrateful that

765
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 1: he came home. Look at all the other women that

766
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 1: don't have husbands, and I'm like.

767
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 2: Does.

768
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:40,240
Speaker 1: Not just for his his police officer friends, but for people?

769
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:41,839
Speaker 2: Do you have survivors cope?

770
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:48,479
Speaker 1: No, I don't know. I just feel that I could

771
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: have done more. I should have gone before. I should

772
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 1: have I was so close. I could have just walked

773
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 1: over and helped. My thought process was get home to

774
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 1: your daughter. You know, That's always been his job, you know.

775
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: But after that, what went wrong with me? I was

776
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 1: in a respite center with the Red Cross.

777
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 2: Well hang on now, let me let me explain that.

778
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 2: So as a normal person from the BRONX who grows

779
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 2: up and marries this guy and has this love affair

780
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 2: and starts off this normal American life and just a

781
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 2: normal person living a life. You know this nine eleven

782
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 2: interrupts and changes the rest of your lives forever. So

783
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 2: Joe keeps coming home night after night with this filthy

784
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 2: and blank stare on his face. And you have this

785
00:43:55,760 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 2: EMS training and you decide you're going to volunteer with

786
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 2: the Red Cross and work in these centers. What was

787
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 2: Joe's response to that?

788
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 1: Well, he was very angry. He's angry, super angry.

789
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 2: Was he angry because he was trying to protect you?

790
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 2: He just didn't doubt you to.

791
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: Be No, that was it. That was it. It wasn't

792
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: that I was going because he has never told me

793
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 1: I couldn't go anywhere, okay, But he asked me why,

794
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 1: and I said, because I lied to our daughter for

795
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 1: days after nine to eleven. I would take her to

796
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: school and she didn't want to go to school. And

797
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 1: I gave her this big patriot to talk about terrorism

798
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 1: and we can't let them win. And if she didn't

799
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: go to school.

800
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 2: To mom, I was tough, loving mom.

801
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 1: But I didn't believe one word I said. I just

802
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:51,879
Speaker 1: needed her to go to school and be sixteen so

803
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 1: I would after she went to school, I would drive

804
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 1: underneath some trees and sit there until it was time

805
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 1: for how to get out. And every day I lied,

806
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: I was, I had a great day, and I did this,

807
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 1: and I did that until one day she came out

808
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: of school and said, Mom, we're going to be okay.

809
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 1: But you know, I can see you out the window.

810
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 2: She saw you part.

811
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:10,840
Speaker 1: Of her friends.

812
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 2: I thought it was so were you in the car crying?

813
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: I was crying. I was listening to music.

814
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 2: So you So your daughter is in school looking out

815
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 2: at your mom sitting in.

816
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 1: The car after I'm telling her she shouldn't do this. Yeah,

817
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:25,800
Speaker 1: And so I felt I sent her the wrong message.

818
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 1: And I just called a few people and before I know,

819
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:29,760
Speaker 1: you're going to Brooklyn and I mean.

820
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 2: Back then, that's not a funny show. No, I laugh

821
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 2: about all the time.

822
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: And then one day Joe came home and he and

823
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 1: he sees me dressed and goes it's ten and I go, yeah,

824
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 1: ten pm, ten.

825
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:47,399
Speaker 2: Pm, and you're dressed up radio. Did he think maybe

826
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 2: you're reverting back to your party girl times?

827
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,320
Speaker 1: Sure, I wouldn't want to do that. I was kidding,

828
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 1: But he just came in and goes, we're going somewhere,

829
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: and I said, no, you're not. But I got to

830
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 1: go to brook Brooklyn sign in, get my paperwork done

831
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:10,799
Speaker 1: for I'm been assigned to ground zero. No you haven't, Yes,

832
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: I haven't. Don't. We usually discuss things. I says, yeah,

833
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:16,399
Speaker 1: but you've been too busy. I always try to get

834
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:18,280
Speaker 1: out of these things. And I said, well, I'm going,

835
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:20,839
Speaker 1: and he looked at me and he goes, I don't

836
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 1: want you to go, And I said, well, where would

837
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 1: you be? And he drove me.

838
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 2: He didn't want you to go. He was afraid, because

839
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 2: he's afraid of everything. You're going to even.

840
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 1: Actually, well what I do with her? My daughter? And

841
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 1: I go, she's sixteen. She knows how to put herself

842
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: to sleep, but what if you're not here in the morning.

843
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,279
Speaker 1: She knows how to get herself to school. And he goes,

844
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: but I go, no more, but honey, I'm going because

845
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 1: you were there. I want to be there too. I

846
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: want to help. We got into the car and he

847
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,399
Speaker 1: would not speak to me. We got to Brooklyn and

848
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 1: he opened the door and he said, you sure. I

849
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 1: can't convince you. I said, will you stop going? And

850
00:46:57,239 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 1: he got back in the car and said I'll see

851
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 1: you to me, I said good. I said, we're not

852
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 1: winning any fight here. It's just something I need to do.

853
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 1: And once you understand that, you won't to have a

854
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 1: problem with me going down and he didn't after that.

855
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,320
Speaker 2: That concludes Part one of our conversations with Sonya Agron,

856
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:21,879
Speaker 2: and I really hope you'll listen to part two that's

857
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 2: now available as her Heroism. It's just getting started, but

858
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 2: if you don't, make sure you join the Army of

859
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 2: Normal Folks at Normal Folks, start us and sign up

860
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 2: to become a member of the movement. It only takes

861
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 2: committing to doing one new thing this year to help others,

862
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 2: and there will be a ton of awesome ideas on

863
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 2: this podcast. When the folks were featuring, some of them

864
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:47,839
Speaker 2: may resonate with you deeply and others may not at all,

865
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 2: and that's okay because we're called to do different things.

866
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 2: By signing up, you'll also receive a weekly email with

867
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 2: short episode some reason in case you happen to miss

868
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 2: an episode or you prefer reading about our on credit Well,

869
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 2: gus together we can change the country, but it starts

870
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:06,959
Speaker 2: with you. I'll see in Part two