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Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. There's a period of

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Speaker 1: time when young kids stop being babies necessarily and they

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Speaker 1: become something that resembles a toddler. It's kind of that

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Speaker 1: weird age, you know, and it's so precious. It's precious

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Speaker 1: to see that development of a child as you're watching

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Speaker 1: them grow, you know, your own child, and you know

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Speaker 1: they're they're pulling up on things, and they're what they

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Speaker 1: call it cruising, you know, they're holding onto things and

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Speaker 1: walk around and finally some of them take those early

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Speaker 1: steps in there and it's precious to watch, but oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh, it's terrifying too. I mean, it's it's probably

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Speaker 1: if you ever had a small child and you don't

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Speaker 1: know what it's like. There are a few things and

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Speaker 1: it's amazing. You're going to think that I'm crazier than

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Speaker 1: you already think that I am. But sometimes you look

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Speaker 1: around and you say, where's my child because you don't know,

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Speaker 1: you don't know where they've wandered off to in your house,

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Speaker 1: you know, and so you have to watch them every

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Speaker 1: single moment because you're afraid that something is going to

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Speaker 1: befall them. It brings to mind a case that I've

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Speaker 1: been interested in now for a couple of weeks. I

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Speaker 1: guess it's a case involving an eighteen month old child,

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Speaker 1: an eighteen month old child who was so beautiful and

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Speaker 1: so precious, a gift from Heaven, as all children are,

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Speaker 1: but something entered into her space that I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I guess the only way I could really describe it

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Speaker 1: is malevolent. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body

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Speaker 1: David sit here, and I'm thinking about my grandchildren right now,

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Speaker 1: and even further back, I'm thinking about my kids when

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Speaker 1: they were babies, and I'm thinking about how fragile and

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Speaker 1: dangerous that age is, and how you're you're you know,

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Speaker 1: you're just trying to keep them alive, particularly when you're

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Speaker 1: a young parent. You know, you get older and you

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Speaker 1: have grand babies. That's another thing. You know, you're careful

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Speaker 1: with them, but you know that they're not necessarily going

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Speaker 1: to break, but you're always you're always worried because they're

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Speaker 1: so dependent upon you and they're so they're so vulnerable

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Speaker 1: to the world.

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Speaker 2: A great explanation about missing them in your own homes

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Speaker 2: at eighteen months.

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Speaker 1: They are fast, they are fast. You know it in

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Speaker 1: a closet or under.

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Speaker 2: The thing is when they're in the they're usually standing

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Speaker 2: on an old dresser on top of a TV. You

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Speaker 2: hit in there, next to a dresser that has only

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Speaker 2: three legs, and they're standing on top saying hi. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's an eighteen month old right there.

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Speaker 1: It's it's terrifying. But they're so darn cute. I mean

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Speaker 1: they are, they're they're just so it's such a sweet age,

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Speaker 1: you know, because they they still have that amount of

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Speaker 1: baby in them where they want to crawl up in

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Speaker 1: your lap and you can rock them, you can soothe them.

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Speaker 1: You know, they're gonna cry, they're gonna they have these

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Speaker 1: needs and you can meet them and all those sort

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Speaker 1: of things such as such a precious time.

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Speaker 2: Uh you know that's why this story has the way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it really has. I I you know, I've

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Speaker 1: often thought about this, you know, when we cover cases

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Speaker 1: involving small children. Just bring them, bring them to me,

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Speaker 1: don't destroy them.

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Speaker 2: Think about this story actually began four months before it ended. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: four months before. I mean obviously we're talking about the

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Speaker 2: death of an eighteen month old child named iris Rita Alfara.

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Speaker 2: She was eighteen months old. Four months before she died,

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Speaker 2: she had spent the weekend with her her biological father.

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Speaker 1: He had hit.

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Speaker 2: The biological mother and father were not together as a

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Speaker 2: married couple. They both had moved on. They shared custody

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Speaker 2: shared custody, meaning the mom had custody all the time

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Speaker 2: and the dad had visitation about every other weekend, and

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Speaker 2: she did that. They tended to work out for them.

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Speaker 2: After one of her weekends, After one of Iris's weekends

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Speaker 2: with her dad, her mom noticed when she was changing

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Speaker 2: a diaper, some water beads were in her diaper. These

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Speaker 2: are the water beads that are like in a bathtub,

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Speaker 2: you know, the bathing beads some people call them. But anyway,

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Speaker 2: she was scared, frightened, what are these beads doing in

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Speaker 2: my child's diaper? And she takes her to the hospital.

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Speaker 2: They thought the same thing, What in the world has

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Speaker 2: she done? What is she eaten? And at the hospital

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Speaker 2: they watched not just beads pass through her system, a

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Speaker 2: couple of small batteries, the little batteries.

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Speaker 1: You like a watch battery, all right, yeah, And a.

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Speaker 2: Screw like a wood screw also passed through her system

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Speaker 2: into her diaper. Now, when it first happened that these passed.

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Speaker 2: That was a warning. Certainly, hey, something's up. Somebody's either

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Speaker 2: not watching her careful enough. You know, they weren't thinking

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Speaker 2: anything heinous. They weren't thinking this child is having to

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Speaker 2: fight a monster. They were actually thinking, Wow, you know,

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Speaker 2: this child thankfully did not suffer any long term effects

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Speaker 2: from this. So when she did start suffering effects and

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Speaker 2: the she was at her dad's place for the weekend,

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Speaker 2: Dad goes to the grocery store. While he's there at

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Speaker 2: getting ready to pay for his groceries, his girlfriend calls

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Speaker 2: and says, hey, something's wrong with the baby, and he's like, well,

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Speaker 2: call nine one one, I'm on my way. By the

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Speaker 2: time the rescuers got there, she with lethargic iris, was

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Speaker 2: not really her eyes were fixed. And I've got questions

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Speaker 2: about the way they described her, Joe, because I'm not

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Speaker 2: sure I'm not knowing the medical terms what it all means.

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Speaker 2: But the bottom line is she died from things that

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Speaker 2: she didn't find on her own. She was fed and

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Speaker 2: in this particular case, noil polish remover. Yeah, that would

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Speaker 2: be the best thing to explain it. Now, polish remover acetone.

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Speaker 1: Is that what it's called yone. Yeah it is.

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Speaker 2: That's what killed eighteen month old Iris Alfarah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's horrible stuff. Let me back up just for

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Speaker 1: a second to give you know, to give our friends

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Speaker 1: here kind of an understanding of First off, that first

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Speaker 1: part that we were describing. I don't many people might

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Speaker 1: not be aware of this, but there is actually a

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Speaker 1: condition that adults suffer from, and it's actually referred to

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Speaker 1: as pika and pika p I c A. It's actually

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Speaker 1: a condition where people get fixated on consuming non food items.

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Speaker 1: And I think probably one of the most ghastly examples

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Speaker 1: of this, it's probably Albert Fish, who was a serial

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Speaker 1: killer back I don't know, the turn of the last century,

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Speaker 1: I think, and he he would ingest metallic objects like needles, nails,

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Speaker 1: all manner things, but he was he had pika in

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Speaker 1: the sense that it was a sato masochistic thing. He

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Speaker 1: enjoyed the pain in his bowel. And that's the thing

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Speaker 1: I got to thinking about this when you had mentioned,

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Speaker 1: you know, the batteries are one thing that's kind of

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Speaker 1: a smooth external surface if they're not broken, Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: could be easily passed. The water beads sometimes if those rupture.

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Speaker 1: They've got a dehydrating quality to them that could be

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Speaker 1: quite dangerous. But primarily you're worrying about blockages. But the

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Speaker 1: screw in particular troubled me because if you swallow a

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Speaker 1: metal object like that, and as it's kind of passing through, well,

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Speaker 1: obviously it has to make its way to the stomach,

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Speaker 1: and then where the stomach dumps into the small intestine.

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Speaker 1: You know, it has to travel some distance, and you're

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Speaker 1: really wondering along the way if you just imagine you'd

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Speaker 1: mentioned that this was like a woodscrew, Well, this is

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Speaker 1: going to be something that has got it's got a

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Speaker 1: very sharp point on it, and it's got despiraling pattern

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Speaker 1: that runs up the side that literally can hang on

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Speaker 1: the mucosal surface of the bowel. Just imagine that just

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Speaker 1: for a second. If it gets in there and it

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Speaker 1: gets twisted, then that means its bowel can rupture, perhaps

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Speaker 1: and all kinds of bad things can happen at that point,

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Speaker 1: and the child has no way of communicating this. I

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Speaker 1: think one of the questions I would have if this

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Speaker 1: was an attempt to take this child's life in some

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Speaker 1: kind of passive way. You know what I'm saying, It's like,

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Speaker 1: it's not like the child is being beaten to death,

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Speaker 1: but you try to it's almost staging. It is staging.

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Speaker 1: You want to make it look like the kid pick

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Speaker 1: something up, stuffed it in their mouth, and oops, it

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Speaker 1: was an accident and they died. I don't think that

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Speaker 1: you can take the full measure of thinking about providing

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Speaker 1: objects for a child to swallow it, and how do

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Speaker 1: you get them to swallow it. Did you take a

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Speaker 1: woodscrew and place it into a banana, say, for instance,

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Speaker 1: and give the banana to the child, say, cut up

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Speaker 1: bits of banana, or maybe maybe you're talking about it's

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Speaker 1: not a finger food. Maybe maybe you're taking something out

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Speaker 1: of a jar, you know, like I don't know, like

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Speaker 1: care it's you know, like puadan carrots, or you know,

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Speaker 1: one of these peas or one of these things that's

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Speaker 1: real tacky, and you you place that item in there,

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Speaker 1: and then you can you imagine taking that spoon and

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Speaker 1: dipping that out, and you.

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Speaker 2: Know, your first thought wouldn't be if you're a medical

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Speaker 2: person and you see this, your first thought isn't going

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Speaker 2: to be somebody got this baby to eat his screw.

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Speaker 2: It's going to be she found some things on the

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Speaker 2: floor and was oh yeah, and just grabbed them and

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Speaker 2: you know, fingers to mouth, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. And I have to say,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you if this is the issue and

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Speaker 1: you're taking the child to the emergency room to be assessed,

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Speaker 1: first off, you're going to do X rays on the

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Speaker 1: child thoroughly. You know, you want to be able to

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Speaker 1: look through get a really good image of the bowel,

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Speaker 1: every bit and the stomach to see if there's anything

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Speaker 1: but refer to that's radio opaque in there, because if

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Speaker 1: there's another item in there, and you can find another item,

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Speaker 1: I don't most people. You know, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: talk out there about how and you've probably heard this

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Speaker 1: over the years, about how long the human intestine is. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the small intestine, in particular, large intestine. It sounds counter too.

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Speaker 1: Large intestine is not as as long as the small intestine.

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Speaker 1: Small intestine is really compact, It compacted upon itself. It's

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Speaker 1: in loops, we refer to it as loops, and it

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Speaker 1: goes it's feet I mean just feet and feet and feet.

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Speaker 1: So anything that is passing through there, all these little turns,

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Speaker 1: all these little awkward positions that it can get in.

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Speaker 1: If you've got a foreign object in there, it can

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Speaker 1: get hung up in that gastric mucosa. The surgeon that's

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Speaker 1: tasked with clearing that area out really has hell to pay,

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Speaker 1: you know, when you're going by the image, and of

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Speaker 1: course they're going to scope these kids in order to

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Speaker 1: look for it. But it's a very delicate thing because

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Speaker 1: if that tissue is harmed in a particular way, you

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Speaker 1: can actually have something like sepsis that might set in

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Speaker 1: in that area because you don't know if it's if

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Speaker 1: the surface of that bowel is ruptured and then it

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Speaker 1: kind of begins to spell out into that surrounding area.

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Speaker 1: You can have all kinds of nasties that set in.

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Speaker 1: And you really wonder had somebody actually weaponized food and

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Speaker 1: a little to killer sharp.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Dave, I got a question for you.

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Speaker 1: You ever been messing around with super glue and you

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Speaker 1: get some of it on the surface of like one

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Speaker 1: of your fingers, and then you put your other finger

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Speaker 1: on the surface of the finger that has super clue,

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Speaker 1: and you're sitting there and you're trying to saying, oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh, you know what am I going to do?

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Speaker 1: You know, and there's all kinds of stories of people

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Speaker 1: that have super glue, toilet lids down, and all kinds

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Speaker 1: of stuff. You know from that. Do you know, do

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Speaker 1: you know what substance can be used to free up

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Speaker 1: super glue?

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Speaker 2: I do?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Actually astone. It's an astone base.

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Speaker 2: You know how I knew it?

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Speaker 1: How's that?

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Speaker 2: Several months ago there was a story about a woman

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Speaker 2: who used gorilla glue on her hair getting ready for

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Speaker 2: a big date. Ran out of hairspray when used grilla glue. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and her hands, her hair all got glued together. And

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Speaker 2: so I found out that they used astone. That's how

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Speaker 2: they were able to undo her fingers and hair and

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Speaker 2: everything else. And she wasn't an a burst one.

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Speaker 1: Isn't an amazing stuff we'd come across. I mean, it

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Speaker 1: really is.

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Speaker 2: But now polish remover works at getting read of glue.

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Speaker 1: It does. I mean, it's it's a solvent, you know,

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Speaker 1: and it can you know, you begin to think, well,

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Speaker 1: what does that involve? If you've ever been around superglue

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Speaker 1: and you've glued something down and or you've gotten the

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Speaker 1: residue left behind, how are you going to get that up? Well?

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Speaker 1: Acetone is one of the ways that you do it,

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Speaker 1: and astone is also used is also used UH to

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Speaker 1: remove fingernail polish and if you've ever been around fingernail polish.

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Speaker 1: My wife uses it UH and has used it over

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Speaker 1: the years. It's one of I don't like the smell

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Speaker 1: of either one. I don't like the smell of nail polish.

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Speaker 1: It makes my head hurt. Acetone is not as heavy

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Speaker 1: in the odor, but it's still you can pick up

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Speaker 1: on the on the on the smell of it UH.

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Speaker 1: And as it's being used and generally you're in close

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Speaker 1: proximity to your spouse that they're taking.

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Speaker 2: It is strong enough of a smell. You're right that

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Speaker 2: it's not something you would immediately think, Hey, let me

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Speaker 2: taste this.

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Speaker 1: No, it's not. But it's much like you know, we've

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Speaker 1: we've had several cases over the years where we've talked

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Speaker 1: about we've talked about antifreeze. Yeah, and you know anti

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Speaker 1: freeze U. One of the dangers of it is that

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Speaker 1: it's actually got a sweet taste to it. You know,

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Speaker 1: astone has a sweet taste to it. So if you're yeah, so,

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Speaker 1: if you're if you're going to use it in well,

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Speaker 1: I use the word malevolence, but in a malevolent way

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Speaker 1: if you're going to use it to perpetrate a crime

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Speaker 1: like this. It's not like you're you're taking hydrochlic acid

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Speaker 1: and pouring it down somebody. Sort You're giving them something

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Speaker 1: that has a sweet taste. And what do kids love?

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Speaker 1: Kids love things that are sweet, so to if you

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Speaker 1: can just imagine what would it take to motivate somebody

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Speaker 1: to say, you know what I think I want to do.

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Speaker 1: I want to take an eighteen month old little girl,

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Speaker 1: a little precious baby like this. I'm going to apply

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Speaker 1: her with fingernail polish remover. Gee. I wonder what'll happen

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Speaker 1: well in this particular case. I think, Dave, we have

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Speaker 1: an indication, at least at this point that some research

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Speaker 1: might have been done well in regardless to what would

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Speaker 1: be effective in doing harm to someone.

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Speaker 2: That's why I wanted to set up the inter relationships

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Speaker 2: here with the parents of iris Rita Alfara, the eighteen

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Speaker 2: month old victim. Here, I wanted you to be aware

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Speaker 2: very early on that she was not living with her

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Speaker 2: biological parents. She lived with her mom full time and

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Speaker 2: they lived with her grandparents. Her dad had already moved

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Speaker 2: on to another woman that he was living with, a

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Speaker 2: twenty year old woman named Alicia Lenee Owens. Alicia LINEE

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Speaker 2: Owens was there with her the weekend she ended up

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Speaker 2: with all the waterbeats, the three button bat shape batteries,

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Speaker 2: and the metal screw. She was there that weekend that

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Speaker 2: these were ingested and when police were investigating, because you've

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Speaker 2: got an eighteen month old girl who is seemingly imperfect health,

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Speaker 2: and her dad is at the grocery store and she's

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Speaker 2: at home with her dad's girlfriend and they get a

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Speaker 2: call that she is has taken ill. And when the

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Speaker 2: emergency crews arrived, Joe, she is awake, she's lethargic, her

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Speaker 2: eyes are fixed, and she's This girlfriend claims that she's

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Speaker 2: a nursing student and has tried to perform chess compressions

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Speaker 2: to help iris because.

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Speaker 1: She was not.

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Speaker 2: Her story was that she was feeding the baby on

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Speaker 2: the bed. The baby cramped and fell off the bed

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Speaker 2: and hit her head and that's when she started acting

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Speaker 2: bad physically ill. That's when the girlfriend calls the dad.

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Speaker 2: The dad says call nine one one, he comes home.

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Speaker 2: He gets there by the same time the rescue squad arrives.

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Speaker 2: They look at her and they take her to the hospital.

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Speaker 2: Now at the hospital, the doctors are like, no way,

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Speaker 2: this just happened. There's something else going on here. This

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Speaker 2: is when they air flight her to at another hospital.

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Speaker 2: She dies four days later, eighteen months old and goes

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Speaker 2: from being a perfectly healthy girl when dad leaves her

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Speaker 2: to go to the grocery store and four days later

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Speaker 2: she's dead, and doctors are saying, there's something more to this,

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Speaker 2: so they begin investigations. The investigation two fold because once

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Speaker 2: she had physical signs of trauma. She did have a

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Speaker 2: hit on her head. She had signs that the doctor

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Speaker 2: said appeared to be inflicted by an adult. It looked

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Speaker 2: like abuse. During the investigation, they found out that Linne

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Speaker 2: Owens had been researching on her phone things that could

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Speaker 2: hurt a child everyday. Household items that could hurt a

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Speaker 2: child everyday, Household items that could hurt Who looks for that, Joe?

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Speaker 2: Who uses their phone to look up ways that things

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Speaker 2: that would hurt a child in the home. Not from

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Speaker 2: a safety standpoint.

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Speaker 1: No kidding, David, I mean if you're you know, if

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Speaker 1: you're entertaining a child, say for instance, you've never I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I can't understand what circumstances you would search

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Speaker 1: that out. But let's just say you're going to keep

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Speaker 1: somebody's kids. You whiz, I've never kept a kid before.

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Speaker 1: What how can I safeguard my house? I'm looking for

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Speaker 1: things that could do harm to them. But when you

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Speaker 1: get this specific and you begin to look for things

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Speaker 1: that actually might wind up in a fatal event, that's

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Speaker 1: that is a red flag for investigators, and particularly if

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Speaker 1: you do these searches over a long period of time.

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Speaker 1: It almost goes from a circumstantial standpoint. You're seeing somebody

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Speaker 1: beginning to put puzzle pieces together toward a goal which

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Speaker 1: they're looking to accomplish here, and of course the goal,

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Speaker 1: seemingly at this point in tom is the death of

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Speaker 1: this child, the removal of this child from you know,

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Speaker 1: this family environment, from you know, her dad. And because

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Speaker 1: you know, many times in this blended situation like this,

334
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Speaker 1: children can become let's see, how can I put this,

335
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,920
Speaker 1: it's almost children many times become almost like an accessory

336
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Speaker 1: on a vehicle that the new owner doesn't want, but

337
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Speaker 1: yet the vehicle can't operate without them, and that's unfortunate.

338
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Speaker 1: But that's really kind of the world that many of

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Speaker 1: us have inhabited throughout our lives. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: unwanted childre out there, and there are people that will

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Speaker 1: do harm to children if given an opportunity, if they

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Speaker 1: can be removed from the equation in an environment. So

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Speaker 1: you have to think, uh, you know, you you kind

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Speaker 1: of let off this conversation by stating, I think, what

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Speaker 1: what is it? There's monsters among us. I think that's

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Speaker 1: what you said.

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Speaker 2: And you know it was the Newsweek Newsweek articles. The

348
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Speaker 2: headline about this story was Monsters do exist.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, monsters, and they do truly exist, and they will

350
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Speaker 1: go to whatever links possible to uh, to remove whatever

351
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Speaker 1: an impediment the child might be, or whatever the circumstances

352
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Speaker 1: to rearrange it so it works through their advantage.

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Speaker 2: And that's what you're trying to do. Yeah, you're trying

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Speaker 2: to get rid of the baby, to get out of

355
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Speaker 2: her boyfriend's life so he wouldn't have anything to do

356
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Speaker 2: with his ex That was what it amounted to, or

357
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Speaker 2: that's my opinion, that's what it did. Put it this way, Joe,

358
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Speaker 2: I had to ask you this, okay, because the doctors

359
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,000
Speaker 2: now the way she explained it to the medical professionals.

360
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Speaker 2: They show up that the baby was eating on the bed,

361
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Speaker 2: she had a cramp, fell off the bed and hit

362
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Speaker 2: her head. Doctors at the children's at the children's center

363
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:14,520
Speaker 2: that reported this to the police, it's the UPMC's Children's

364
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,080
Speaker 2: Child Advocacy Center. They reported the police that Iris suffered

365
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:24,240
Speaker 2: subdural hematoma and bilateral retinal hemorrhages. What is that?

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, you've got when we're talking about a subdural hematoma. Uh,

367
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Speaker 1: you have got a uh your brain sits inside of

368
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Speaker 1: a sack. Okay, it's uh, it's it's called the dura,

369
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,520
Speaker 1: the dura sack, and your brain is a wash with

370
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Speaker 1: cerebral spinal fluid. Okay, so your your brain kind of

371
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,480
Speaker 1: floats in this substance, all right, contained within a sack.

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Speaker 1: The sack, along with the fluid, acts as almost a

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Speaker 1: shock like a shock absorber for or the brain. If

374
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:06,359
Speaker 1: you're talking about a subdural hematoma, that means sub obviously

375
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:11,879
Speaker 1: meaning below. So if you've got a subdural hematoma, that

376
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,680
Speaker 1: means that the hemorrhage itself is in between the dura

377
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,200
Speaker 1: sac and the brain. And what does that do? Will

378
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,640
Speaker 1: it creates pressure? And if you're talking about this kind

379
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:27,200
Speaker 1: of bilateral retinal event, Dave. That's something that we commonly

380
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:32,879
Speaker 1: see with shaking baby syndrome, because if you're talking about

381
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Speaker 1: shaking a child to that point where you're going to

382
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:43,199
Speaker 1: inflict not only brain trauma, but also this kind of

383
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 1: ocular trauma as well, you've got to have an origin

384
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 1: for these points of hemorrhage and that kind of violence

385
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,679
Speaker 1: shaking that takes place. Now, there's some people out there

386
00:22:54,400 --> 00:23:00,239
Speaker 1: there's actually been a long running debate about is can

387
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 1: baby syndrome a real thing? Because one of the diagnoses

388
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 1: that people would make many times is that you would

389
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 1: have these children be bilaterally blinded many times because of

390
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 1: the rigorous shaking of the child. And when you've got say,

391
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,159
Speaker 1: these optic nerves that are in the back of the

392
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 1: eye that lead into the brain, sometimes they can be traumatized.

393
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,639
Speaker 1: The surface of the floor of the skull is very rough,

394
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,679
Speaker 1: all right, and if it's fractured any way, or the

395
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 1: kids are jostled in any particular way, particularly over protracted

396
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 1: period of time, you did great harm to the eyes

397
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 1: in that area. Not to mention the brain. So you've

398
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 1: got the brain with a subdural hematoma where you know

399
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,439
Speaker 1: that that child, that head is being bounced back and

400
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 1: forth all over the place, So the little vessels are

401
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,239
Speaker 1: going to rupture on the surface of the brain and

402
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 1: you're going to have this pressure that's going to begin

403
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 1: to build up as that blood that focal area of hemorrhage,

404
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 1: that clot kind of sets in, and that's going to

405
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 1: be problematic. And yeah, it would be. It would be glaring,

406
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 1: you know, particularly for us at autopsy when her head

407
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 1: is actually opened. If you have not seen this on

408
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 1: X ray, you don't know that it's coming. I've actually

409
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: had these cases day where we've been in the autopsy room.

410
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 1: There's not necessarily any kind of external trauma. Like you're

411
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: looking at the head, you don't see anything, and then

412
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 1: all of a sudden you open up the head and

413
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 1: you're taking back the dura and there is a big,

414
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 1: big hemorrhage right there, and you're thinking, oh, my lord,

415
00:24:37,840 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 1: what's happening here. So we've got we've got trauma obviously

416
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:08,440
Speaker 1: to the head that is just in and of itself, Dave,

417
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 1: that in and of itself is enough to give investigators pause.

418
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 1: You've really got a lot. Sink your teeth into there.

419
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:26,640
Speaker 1: But now you've got you've got a child that is

420
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 1: not only lethargic, which that can be associated with a

421
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 1: head injury, but they're not responding. And when they do

422
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: the lab studies, they discovered that the child is going

423
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:45,880
Speaker 1: into ketosis, which your body produces ketones naturally. We actually

424
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:51,120
Speaker 1: we actually process astone every day in our system. It's

425
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,640
Speaker 1: kind of this it's it's something that's naturally occurring, it's

426
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,640
Speaker 1: a byproduct, and we process it. One of the things

427
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,400
Speaker 1: that aston does is that it creates keytnes, and keytnes

428
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,439
Speaker 1: are produced I think they're produced in the liver, and

429
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: so your body is equipped to kind of flush these

430
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: key tones. You have a spike in keytnes many times

431
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 1: with diabetic patients and and they can get in real

432
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 1: serious trouble with ketosis. And so with her, she's kind

433
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 1: of in, you know, as pilots like to say, they

434
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: were in what's it referred to as an unrecoverable flat spin.

435
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 1: You've got this kid that is in great diminished physical condition.

436
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 1: The staff is scratching their heads. They're looking at this

437
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 1: and they're thinking, oh, my lord, what can we do

438
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: to save this child's life? And then as you said

439
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 1: the admission time was what two to three days in length?

440
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 1: There trying, they're they're four days. They're trying, valiantly, fighting

441
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: to try to save this child, and no matter what

442
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 1: you throw, no matter what you throw at this situation,

443
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 1: you're not going to you're not going to save her.

444
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 1: And so it's it's really it would be very frustrating,

445
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 1: I would think for a clinical physician and certainly those

446
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 1: brave nurses that work with these children day in and

447
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: day out, to sit there and you've got all of

448
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 1: this medical science at your disposal, You've got all of

449
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 1: these treatments, you've got all of this history and everything,

450
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: and nothing that you do is going to save this

451
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: child's life, and you literally just kind of watch them

452
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: there as they dwindle and dwindle and dwindle until finally

453
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 1: they're dead and there's nothing you can go back and

454
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: do about it.

455
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 2: In this case, one of the doctors said that based

456
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:49,160
Speaker 2: on her condition, that there's no way her dad didn't

457
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 2: recognize that something was not recognizable in this child before

458
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 2: they called nine to one one, because the story was

459
00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 2: that dad went to the grocery store and while girlfriend

460
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,439
Speaker 2: end was watching the baby, veteran. That's when all of

461
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 2: this happened, and the doctor was saying it could it

462
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 2: had to there had to be more noticeable stuff going on.

463
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,719
Speaker 2: But when they get her to the hospital, and as

464
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 2: you mentioned, they're treating what they see. They're treating what

465
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 2: is obvious, but they don't know until after they do

466
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,360
Speaker 2: the autopsy about the acetone. Is there a test that

467
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 2: one would give a baby that they would look would

468
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 2: you look for acetone or some type of thing like

469
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 2: that that could cause organ failure? Is that is that

470
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 2: on the chart of things to look for?

471
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I guess you're talking about when they're in

472
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: the clinical phase, uh, in the hospital.

473
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's in the hospital and she's dying. Her organs

474
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 2: are failing, and you know, they've got the subdrillhematoma, you

475
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 2: got the problem with the retinal era, You've got that.

476
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: But she's not responding to treatment, as you mentioned.

477
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: And so I think that I would think that probably

478
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 1: they're gonna they're gonna suss out this idea of the

479
00:28:55,320 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: katosis pretty quickly, uh, and try to determine what the

480
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: origin is with it, and maybe by the time they

481
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: get this thing figured out, it's just it's too late.

482
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,239
Speaker 1: At that point in time, they can't there's nothing that

483
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: they can do to stem it. And so you know,

484
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: for us at the Medical Examiner's office, you know, we

485
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: have a luxury. You know, in medical legal death investigation.

486
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: We're not trying to save anybody's life. We're trying to

487
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: solve a mystery at this point in time. So it

488
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: takes some head scratching, and it also takes a review

489
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: of all of the charted material. Everything from the moment

490
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: that this baby would roll through the door in the

491
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 1: emergency room, then up to the floor and then she

492
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: was transported to another location. All of that data would

493
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: be gone. Over All the nursing notes, all the doctor's notes,

494
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: anything any measure that they would have taken to try

495
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: to stem this condition, that's all going to be considered

496
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: at autopsy. And then that's going to lead the forensic

497
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: pathologist at the end of the day, after they balance

498
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: all of this and they take a look at her

499
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: tissues certainly post mortem, look at everything microscopically, take all

500
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: the history and consideration, that's when they're finally going to

501
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: make this diagnosis. And I think that the forensic pathologist

502
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: finally had a eureka moment, you know, where they said, yeah,

503
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: this is this is acetone poisoning. And look, this doesn't

504
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: happen a lot, okay, And I don't want to reduce

505
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: this down to the death of this little angel, down

506
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: to some kind of academic exercise. But it happens with

507
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 1: such rarity that this would this methodology would be something

508
00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: that a forensic pathologist would probably study and actually publish

509
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: a paper on. That's how you know, infrequently it happens

510
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: they would discuss this at a meeting with other physicians

511
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: to say, or other pathologists to say, look, I had

512
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: this case. This is something you need to watch out for.

513
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: It's not like, you know, if we deal with all

514
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: manner of trauma. We mentioned the head trauma, that's something

515
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: that we see regularly. But you know, we see gunshot

516
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: wounds and bludgeonings and stabbings and all that stuff, certainly

517
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 1: motor vehicle accidents. But this, this is something it's not

518
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 1: it's not absolutely positivity has never happened. It has happened.

519
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: We've got a lot of literature on it, but it's

520
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: not something that you're going to see every single month.

521
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: Maybe you won't even see one a year. Okay, so

522
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: when it happens, it's significant.

523
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 2: And that way. Once that did happen, her death was

524
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 2: ruled a homicide and the investigation began. And that's when

525
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 2: the four months previous that we told you about at

526
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 2: the very beginning. That's why it was so important to

527
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 2: know that. I think that that was like trial run

528
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 2: four months earlier of the button, the batteries that were

529
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 2: like buttons, the water beads, and the screw. And as

530
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 2: they were investigating, they said, well, okay, not uncommon for

531
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 2: an eighteen month old to swallow things. Look, I don't

532
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 2: know a parent that hasn't found something in a diaper

533
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 2: and went, please tell me that was after no, that

534
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 2: did not pass. Please. Yeah, And thankfully kids do stick

535
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 2: stuff in their diaper. You know, it doesn't all come

536
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 2: through their system first, because right, well, I got two

537
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 2: kids that would have not survived. But but in this

538
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 2: particular case, they started that and went, okay, that's explainable.

539
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 2: But as they started looking into that happened when the

540
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 2: child was at her dad's house with this girlfriend, and

541
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 2: so they start examining dad's phone, girlfriend's phone, and they

542
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 2: find out that girlfriend has been researching for nine months, Joe,

543
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 2: this child is eighteen months old and for half of

544
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 2: her life. This twenty year old girlfriend was looking up

545
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 2: if you're child drinks a lot of nail polish, remover,

546
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 2: what happens? That was one of the topics that Miss

547
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 2: Owen's researched. What happens if a baby eats nail polish

548
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 2: another of her search and she know's on her cell

549
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 2: phone in how many cases have kids died from eating

550
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 2: water beads? Think about that for a minute. Is what

551
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 2: happened four months earlier? Water beads. So the police had

552
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 2: this investigation pretty much from the very beginning, zeroed in.

553
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 2: Now it was a matter of going to Joe Scott

554
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 2: Morgan saying, how do we put all this together? You know,

555
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 2: I'm going to put it together on my police detective

556
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 2: hat here and I see how these how do we

557
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 2: connect them all medically? Joe?

558
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: Well, I think that again it's going to be the

559
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: preponderance of the evidence relative to her clinical treatment. But

560
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: then you take this and here's the really ominous piece

561
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: to this, not that all of this isn't ominous, but

562
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: when you begin to talk about a nine month period.

563
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: First off, if if I were a prosecutor, and I

564
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: was I was working in a location, which this case

565
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: is out of Pennsylvania, and I was working in that location.

566
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: Does the word premeditation mean anything here? You know, because

567
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: you know, we talk, you know people, and our friend

568
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace always says, I'll let me see if I

569
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: can do my best imitation. She says, just got premeditation

570
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 1: can be formed in the twinkling of an eye. And

571
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: you're right, I mean it can be formed in a

572
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 1: twinkling of eye, Dave. Nine months. Ain't a twinkling of

573
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: an eye. You're talking about a record? Just just frame this.

574
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:49,359
Speaker 1: You're talking about allegedly a record that they have now

575
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:54,919
Speaker 1: of her activities stretching back nine months, nine months, Dave.

576
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 1: Where the prosecution is going to present this case because

577
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 1: it hasn't don't trial yet?

578
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 2: Right? Oh and by the way, Joe, Yeah, during the

579
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 2: four days that this baby was in the hospital before

580
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 2: she died, Alicia Owen's cell phone researched numerous times how

581
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 2: to pass a polygraph test.

582
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: And let me guess, how did that work out?

583
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 2: She actually was charged with murder. This has not been

584
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 2: adjudicated yet. This is an ongoing case because of the

585
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 2: homicide charges. She was denied bail, and we will follow

586
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,760
Speaker 2: it up and will update this particular podcast and probably

587
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 2: do an update because there will be more information on

588
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 2: what Alicia Lana Owens is accused of doing and why

589
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 2: Bailey Jacobi, the father, was not charged and still has

590
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 2: not been charged with any wrongdoing in the death of

591
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 2: his daughter. We'll have to get an update on that

592
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 2: as well.

593
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 1: Joe, you're right, and I think looking at this this

594
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: doesn't require a polygraph to be able to understand and

595
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 1: to interpret that something that was absolutely pure evil was

596
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:22,240
Speaker 1: perpetrated almost gift sent straight down from Heaven. I'm Joseph

597
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, and this is bodybags