1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class from house 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: to bling a truck reporting and I and we're continuing 4 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: on here with our discussion of the Bone Wars, which 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: are also sometimes known as the Dinosaur Wars or the 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: Great Dinosaur Feud. And it's the story of an intense 7 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: scientific rivalry between two really talented nineteenth century paleontologists, Edward 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: Drinker Cope and off Neil Charles Marsh. And they entered 9 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: the field at a time when very few dinosaur species 10 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 1: were known and competed defined fossils, name the species that 11 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: those fossils belonged to, and to be the first to 12 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: publish their findings. And in part one of this episode, 13 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 1: we learned a little bit about Cope and Marsh's backgrounds 14 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: and how they got to be paleontologists because they took 15 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: very different paths, as we'll get into a little bit 16 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: more later. And we also talked about how they started 17 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: out as friends, or at least as friendly colleagues or acquaintances. 18 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: I don't know if even their early friendships wud Yeah, 19 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: I wouldn't categorize that as a friendship. People do friendly. Yes, 20 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 1: they were friendly, and uh, we also talked about what 21 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:20,199 Speaker 1: exactly it was that caused this enormous riff to form 22 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 1: between them. Yeah, and when we left them off, Cope 23 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: and Marsh had just started to look west in search 24 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: of fossils. In this episode, though, we're going to be 25 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: talking a bit about what they found out west and 26 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: these sometimes shady tactics that they employed to be the 27 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: first to get credit for their discoveries. We're also going 28 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: to take a look at the more official stage on 29 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: which their battle played out and where it got truly 30 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: truly nasty. But first we want to take a closer 31 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: look at who these guys were, because it might help 32 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: provide at least a little more insight as to why 33 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: they were destined to clash in the first place, the 34 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: clash of the dinosaur hunters. Okay, so we've already talked 35 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: about the differences between Cope and Marsha's socio economic backgrounds 36 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: and their educational training, which is kind of where it 37 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: all started. And if you'll recall, Marsh was poor raised 38 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: on a farm until his uncle, George Peabody stepped in 39 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: with the financial support that Marsh needed to go to 40 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: prep school. And then onto Yale. And it's Peabody's generous 41 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: donation at Marsha's request that also led to the creation 42 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:28,959 Speaker 1: of a Museum of Natural Sciences at Yale, which was 43 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: a move that then helped secure Marsha professorship there and 44 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 1: it created a great resource for him while he was 45 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: hunting for fossils. Yeah, he had the Yale in its corner. 46 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 1: But all of Peabody's support did unfortunately come with a catch. 47 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: According to an article by James Pannic an American Heritage, 48 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: it turned out that Uncle George had a certain stipulation 49 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:55,799 Speaker 1: for anyone named in his will, and that stipulation involved marriage. 50 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 1: When he was twenty five and a freshman at Yale, 51 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,399 Speaker 1: marsh received eaved a letter from his aunt indicating this stipulation, 52 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: and it read quote, if any of his nephews should 53 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: in any way conduct himself as to disgrace themselves and 54 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: him or now mine this, should any of them form 55 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: a marriage connection or even get engaged before they had 56 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: the means of supporting a family, they should never have 57 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,959 Speaker 1: a cent of his money. He desired me to communicate 58 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: this to all his nephews. Yeah, and apparently there was 59 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 1: one other nephew who had gotten cut out of the 60 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: will for marrying too soon, so Peabody was serious about 61 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: put to the test. By the time March was financially independent, 62 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: he was well into his thirties, so Pennett kind of 63 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: suggests maybe he was too set in his ways to 64 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: marry at that point, or you know, just wasn't inclined 65 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: to do so, or just that he had this strange 66 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: break on his life until he could be financially independent. 67 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: He had some other friendly sort of issues though, Yeah, 68 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: just basically the issue was he didn't have many friends. 69 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: According to an article by Tom Huntington in American History, 70 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: people found Marsh to be quote autocratic and petty and 71 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: accused him of taking credit for the work of his 72 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: assistance and for falling behind on paying his employees, never 73 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: a good move. At one of his clubs, they apparently 74 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: nicknamed him quote the Great dismal Swamp. That's a bad sign. 75 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: He doesn't do well with the nicknames. No, she really doesn't, 76 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: except for the bone wars that one is. It's a 77 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: pretty great nickname for his rivalry. Cope, on the other hand, 78 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: came from a very different kind of background, which we 79 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: discussed on the on the last podcast. It was a 80 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: more privileged beginning, if you remember in the last episode. 81 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: Though he didn't have a lot of formal education. He 82 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: was self taught and he was a part of this 83 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 1: whole gentleman's world of natural science that existed in the 84 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: nineteenth century. Deblina and I were talking about it earlier, 85 00:04:55,440 --> 00:05:00,040 Speaker 1: how it just fascinates us that gentleman would choose to 86 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: to science in some form, and there's something very romantic 87 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: about it. I mean, we both talked about how it's 88 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: just there's something very ideal. A little troubling too, because 89 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: it ends up with you end up with personal disputes 90 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 1: like this. But um Cope was considered to be very brilliant, 91 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: considered to be a prodigy, and his life was also 92 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 1: very different from marsh Is on a personal level too. 93 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: We mentioned that he was married, he had a wife, 94 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: he had a daughter named Julia. Unlike marsh to Cope 95 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: was pretty charming. The friends he had seemed to really 96 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: like him, really care for him, although they would agree 97 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: that he could kind of be arrogant sometimes he could 98 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: be quick tempered. According to Huntington's article, paleontologist William Berryman Scott, 99 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: who took Cope side in the war with Marsh instead 100 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: of Cope Quote, despite his greatness in some measure, indeed 101 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: because of it, he had some unfortunate personal peculiarities. Was 102 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: pugnacious and quarrelsome and made many enemies, so many enemies, 103 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: many friends, no friends on the other side, kind of 104 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: unusual guys. So when we last left off of our story, 105 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: Cope had kind of broken the mold of those gentlemen 106 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: naturalists that we were describing. They usually waited for things 107 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: to be sent to them to study. They didn't actually 108 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: go out on these great expeditions. They limit their study 109 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: to the comfort of their own home exactly. And Cope, 110 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: like Marsh, went out to hunt fossils, but he had 111 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: a different way of traveling from Marsh. We mentioned how 112 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 1: Marsh went out with this entourage and had guides in 113 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:39,159 Speaker 1: a military escort. Cope did not have a resource like 114 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 1: Yale behind him, so he didn't have all these graduate 115 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,799 Speaker 1: assistants to come with him, so he often put together 116 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: teams for his expeditions when he got wherever he was going. Also, 117 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: since Cope was a Quaker, he really used a military 118 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: escort because he was a pacifist, and he pretty much 119 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: refused to carry a revolver, which a lot of people 120 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,119 Speaker 1: thought was crazy because of the threat of hostile Native 121 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: American tribes out west, among other things. Yeah, Bandit Taiwan, 122 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: then all sorts of of risks he might come across, 123 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: not to mention just the wildlife Pentually, um Cope did 124 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: things his way, though, and he was very tough about it. 125 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: Panic relates how Cope would read the Bible every night, 126 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: even when he was out in the field, and if 127 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: others in his camp would would laugh at him, he'd 128 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: sort of stare them down until they would just uh 129 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: straightened up, you know, stop laughing, stop making fun of him. 130 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: Cope and Marsh did both have successes in the field 131 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: that we've kind of described the way they carried about 132 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: their expeditions, but they did both have successes though Marsh, 133 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: of course, with his official Yale connection and his Peabody 134 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: inheritance at his disposal, did have more resources to throw 135 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: at the situation. However, both to some extent, Cope especially 136 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: or reliant on being associated with one of several geological 137 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: surveys of the West that were going on at the time. 138 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: It was kind of an official backing almost Yeah. Being 139 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: involved with these surveys provided economic support for their work 140 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: and a vehicle for publishing their findings, and this becomes 141 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: important later in our story as well. So just kind 142 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: of remember that. We talked a little in the last 143 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: podcast also about how Marsh and Cope started going at 144 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: each other mostly by way of letters after their initial 145 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: expeditions out west, when they started really competing in a 146 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: sense for fossil finds out there. But they really launched 147 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: into full scale warfare in eighteen seventy seven when Arthur Lakes, 148 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: who was a mining teacher, wrote to Marsh saying that 149 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: he discovered some fossils near Morris in Colorado. Now Marsh 150 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: didn't reply, so Lakes said, well, okay, I want to 151 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: do something with these, so he sent some samples to Cope. 152 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: When Marsh heard that, though he sent Lakes some cash 153 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: to win him over, he was like, well, I don't 154 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: want Cope to get these. After that, after getting that cash, 155 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: Lakes asked Cope to please send back his samples so 156 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: that he could work with the Marsh And according to 157 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: Huntington's part of what Marsh found among Lake's initial find 158 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: were the remains the first remains of the Stegosaurus around 159 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: the time. The same time, too, another teacher named O. W. 160 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: Lucas also found some fossils in Colorado. He contacted Cope 161 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: first about it, and Cope jumped at the chance to 162 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: to check out the fossils. Overall, according to Huntington's, Cope's 163 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: Colorado finds actually turned out to be better than marshes 164 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 1: because they were bigger and they could be taken out 165 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: of the surrounding rock without breaking them. Marsh, of course, 166 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: so did come out on top in other situations. In 167 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: the summer of eighteen seventy seven, for example, two railway 168 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 1: workers in Como, Wyoming named William Reid and W. E. 169 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 1: Carlin contacted Marsh about some fossils that they had discovered 170 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: as a site known as Como Bluff, and marshal course 171 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: and his bone collectors out there. They ended up gathering 172 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: thirty tons of fossils from the Jurassic Age and shipped 173 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: all the stuff back to Marsh at Yale. And it 174 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: was very high quality, you know, large bones. It was 175 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: well preserved. The result of of Marcia's investigation of this 176 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: fine too, really speaks to how high quality it was. 177 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:18,319 Speaker 1: He discovered several new species and named um the Allosaurus, 178 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: the Diplodocus, the Camptosaurus, all from those Como bluff fine 179 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 1: and also notably he named the Brontosaurus out of those fines, 180 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: one of the world's best known dinosaurs, and Sara doutis 181 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: favorite dinosaur. I should mention interesting, though, that the naming 182 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: of Brontosaurus is actually considered one of Marcia's biggest mistakes. 183 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: After he died, scientists realized that the creature Marcia named 184 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: Brontosaurus was just another example of a dinosaur Marsh had 185 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: already named the Patosaurus, so the designation Brontosaurus was taken 186 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: away obviously, though that's kind of an enduring yes. So 187 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: it's probably clear by now that Cope and Marsh often 188 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 1: weren't the ones actually digging in the ground, collecting fossils, 189 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 1: or even supervising digs themselves, Hence all the talk of 190 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: sending bones back east to them. They accomplished a lot 191 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: of what they did through the help of bone collectors. 192 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: Cope and Marsh would occasionally visit the dig sites, but 193 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: the fossil collectors were sort of the foot soldiers in 194 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: this battle that they were waging against each other. Too. 195 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: There really was a lot of taking sides. Reid took 196 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: Marsh's side and became a major collector for him. Well, 197 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: Carlin switched over to Cope side, Lucas remained on Cope side, 198 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: while Lakes stuck with Marsh. I was surprised by Lucas, 199 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: I think, since he sort of got slighted at the 200 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: beginning by Marsh. But I guess I was okay, might 201 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: have been better. Yeah, I mean that means a lot. 202 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 1: It does. Occasionally though, according to Huntington, again, the two 203 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: peontologists would try to woo each other's collectors away from 204 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: the other. Um. I don't know if they were attempting 205 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: them with better publication of the works or money all 206 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: the time. But that wasn't the most extreme of the 207 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: tactics used in this war. I mean that already sounds 208 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: a little bit dicey. But they also spied on each other. 209 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: Marsh at least would even communicate in code with his 210 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: collectors to try to keep Cope from figuring out what 211 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: he was up to, what his bone collectors were up to. 212 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: They referred to Cope as Jones in this Sneaky correspondence, 213 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: and one of Marsha's guys was so paranoid about Cope 214 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: spying on him that when a man showed up at 215 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: their camp one day in eighteen seventy eight, he asked 216 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: for a handwriting sample in case it was Cope in disguise. 217 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: He was so suspicious. So I guess they were right 218 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: to worry, though, because Cope really did charm his way 219 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,599 Speaker 1: into one of Marsha's camps in eighteen seventy nine, probably 220 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 1: to woo some team members over to his side, or 221 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: just to steal information outright. But the funny thing was 222 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: Marsha's men really liked Cope. According to Huntington's article, Lakes 223 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: later wrote of the incident that Cope quote entertained his 224 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: party by singing comic songs with a refrain at the 225 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: end like the howl of coyote, and Lakes went on 226 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: to observe quote. I must say that when I saw 227 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: of him, I liked very much. His manner is so 228 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: affable in his conversation, very agreeable. I only wish I 229 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: could feel sure he had a sound reputation for honesty. 230 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: Maybe not. According to an article by Renee Clary, James Wandersie, 231 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: and Amy Capernelli in Science Scope, March was said to 232 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: have planted unrelated fossils at some of Cope's dig sites 233 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 1: to slow down his progress too. So it's not just 234 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: invading the other guy's camp and the reputation for honesty there, well, 235 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: I mean that that takes it to another level. So um, 236 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,199 Speaker 1: tampering with the with the science essentially, Yeah, I mean, 237 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: and that was the really shocking part of Cope and 238 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: Marks's tactics is that they just they went beyond trying 239 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: to harm and hinder each other in their efforts. They 240 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: actually may have harmed the field itself from maybe even 241 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: hindered scientific progress in some cases. For example, if March's 242 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: guy read unearthed more bones than he could use, he 243 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: smashed them so that Carlin couldn't get to them. Marsh 244 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: is also said to have ordered that certain sites be 245 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: blown up with dynamite to keep Cope from getting to 246 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: the fossils, although, according to a two thousand eight article 247 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: by gen Viev Jiski, at least when it comes to 248 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: one of the sites that was supposedly blown up, Quary ten, 249 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: which is in Morris Some, Colorado, those allegations are false. 250 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: Some researchers found Quarry ten in two thousand two using 251 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: Lakes's field notes and determined that Lakes probably just shoved 252 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: some dirt in there and then said he dynamited it 253 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: to discourage the competition from checking it out. The way 254 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: I sort of read that though, is maybe he had 255 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: his history of dynamite things already established. Though if people 256 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: were going to believe that could be well. It may 257 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: have been out west that some of the more colorful 258 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: war tactics were used by these two. As we hinted 259 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: in the previous episode, the really decisive battleground for the 260 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: Bone Wars turned out to be Washington, d c. And 261 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: this is where Marsh really pulled ahead, because even though 262 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: he wasn't winning any popularity contests, he was much savvier 263 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: when it came to politics than Cope. Was. The first 264 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: development that really set the ball rolling for Marsh had 265 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 1: to do with those surveys out west that we talked 266 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: about earlier in the late eighteen seventies early eighteen eighties 267 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: or so, Congress, upon the advice of the National Academy 268 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: of Sciences, which by the way, was an organization which 269 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: Marsh had become president of, decided to do away with 270 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: all of the existing competing geological surveys and create just 271 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: one national geological survey to replace them. They decided to 272 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: call it the United States Geological Survey, and the former 273 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: head of one of the defunct surveys Marsh had been 274 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: affiliated with, was named as the director. Uh So, soon 275 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: Marsh became the official vertebrate paleontologist of the United States 276 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: Geological Survey. Not too surprising there, if if he's the 277 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: head of the National Academy of Sciences already, he knows 278 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: the new head of the Geological Survey. Uh. I mean, 279 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: he was certainly at this point winning the feud in 280 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: terms of political clout in the science world, in terms 281 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: of how his career was progressing. When Cope lost that 282 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: government support, it really devastated his research too, and his 283 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: publication efforts. He just didn't have any funding anymore, and 284 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: his personal wealth, which he had also put toward his 285 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: efforts in paleontology over all these years, was starting to 286 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: dry up. Cope, looking for a get rich quick sort 287 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: of scheme, tried to make up for it by investing 288 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: in a silver mine in New Mexico, but that turned 289 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: out to be a bust. He lost everything, and uh 290 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: it really seemed at this point where that there was 291 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: a clear winner and loser in this feud, but that 292 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: didn't seem to be enough for Marsh. He took things 293 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: a step further and tried to have Cope's fossils confiscated, 294 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 1: claiming that they had been collected with government funds. Cope 295 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: completely denied this. He said that he had used his 296 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: own money to collect the fossils. And then he decided 297 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: to fight back against Marsh and the only way that 298 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 1: he could at that point, and that was through the press. 299 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: He approached a writer for the New York Herald and 300 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,479 Speaker 1: told that writer basically every bad thing that he had 301 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 1: ever thought or heard about Marsh, and this kicked off 302 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: a very public, very brutal battle of words between Cope 303 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 1: and Marsh that was splashed all over the pages of 304 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: the New York Herald between January twelfth, eighteen eighty in 305 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 1: January eighteen eighty under headlines like scientists wage bitter warfare. 306 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: And they went way back in their relationship too. They 307 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: weren't just considering the last few years as their at 308 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: their ammo um. They went back to the beginning. According 309 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: to hunting Kin's article, Cope said things like Marsh was quote, 310 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 1: unable to properly classify and name the fossils his explorers secured. 311 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 1: It's pretty damning. Uh. He said that Marsh took credit 312 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 1: for his assistance work, and he also accused Marsh and 313 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 1: the U S Geological Survey of corruption and Mithews of 314 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,160 Speaker 1: government funds, which is pretty key here. For his part, 315 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: Marsh brought up how Cope rushed to get his discoveries 316 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: into print, you know, before they were ready, often making 317 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: errors in the process. He also brought up that embarrassing 318 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: mistake with the elasmosaur, among other things. We discussed that 319 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,439 Speaker 1: in the in the last podcast, flipping the head and 320 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 1: tail of the dinosaur and then having Marsh be the 321 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: one to point it out. This newspaper feud didn't last long, 322 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: but it was really damaging to both of their reputation, 323 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: so nobody won. In this instance, Cope struggled to find 324 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 1: a buyer for his massive fossil collection because he needed 325 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: the money. Eventually he could only sell part of it, 326 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: and then he hit the lecture circuit and tried to 327 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: secure a paying position at a college. He didn't have 328 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: that backing behind him that Marsh had at Yale. I 329 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: think I saw him described in one spot as a 330 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: rogue rogue scientist or a rogue paleontologist, and now he 331 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: has all this bad press out too exactly, so doubly 332 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,360 Speaker 1: he he just doesn't have anyone to go to at 333 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: that point. It just proved to be really tough to 334 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: find a pain position. According to Panix article. He finally 335 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 1: got a position though, and a small salary, at the 336 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 1: University of Pennsylvania in eighteen eighty nine, and he turned 337 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: out to be a pretty good teacher. But of course 338 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: that wasn't his life school, that's not what he had 339 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:49,239 Speaker 1: really wanted. He died in eight of renal failure at 340 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: age fifty six according to PBS, and not right away, 341 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 1: but in a couple of years. Congress did investigate the 342 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 1: u S geological surveys use of funds and ended up 343 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 1: cutting their funding and completely doing away with the Department 344 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: of Paleontology. Marsh was forced to resign, and for the 345 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: first time he had to accept a salary from Yale. 346 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 1: He died of pneumonia in eighteen nine, two years after Marsh, 347 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,199 Speaker 1: at the age of sixty seven. He only had a 348 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: hundred and eighty six dollars in his bank account. When 349 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 1: he died of all that Peabody money that had come 350 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: to him. His collection ended up in the Smithsonian and 351 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 1: at Yale, and part of Cope's collection ended up at 352 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: the American Museum of Natural History. That's like, those are 353 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: the two or the three winners in the story. I 354 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: think the places in us too. You know that we 355 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,159 Speaker 1: can go see them today. Yeah, and that there's this 356 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: interesting story for us to look into. But looking at 357 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: this result there doesn't really seem to be like a 358 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: winner at the end. Neither of these guys seemed to 359 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,239 Speaker 1: really come out on top. But of course they were 360 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 1: both very accomplished overall, and they both made major contributions 361 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 1: to science. If you stuck up some of their accomplishments 362 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 1: those side by side, what does it look like? We 363 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: wanted to take a look at that, So first we'll 364 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: look at the naming part of it. Well, March seemed 365 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: to win when it came to naming dinosaur species. He 366 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: named eighty six out of thet some odd ones that 367 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: they named. Total. Cope published war though according to Science Scope, 368 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 1: his record of twelve hundred publications is still unbeaten. Wow, 369 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that is not too surprising he 370 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: won that side of the battle. Um Marsh notably provided 371 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: evidence for the theory of evolution, to which Darwin himself 372 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: called quote the best support of the theory of evolution 373 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: at the time. Um He found thirty specimens, for example, 374 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,439 Speaker 1: that allowed him to outline the evolutionary history of the horse, 375 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: and he recognized similarities of the modern bird in extinct dinosaurs. Cope, 376 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 1: on the other hand, because of his religious convictions, probably 377 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: didn't support Darwin's theory. But as science Scope points out, 378 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 1: he's known for Cope's rule, which is the observation that 379 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 1: organisms of a species tend to get larger over time 380 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 1: than the fossil records. So it just depends on what 381 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: you're judging them by, which one of them one. Yeah, 382 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: and and it certainly made me wonder too how much 383 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 1: they accomplished because they did have the other one they're 384 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: competing and egging him on, or whether they could have 385 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,719 Speaker 1: accomplished more if they had worked in better concert together 386 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 1: than they did, not trying to sabotage each other's work 387 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: as much. No, but it's interesting, just another tidbit here. 388 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 1: Their competition continued a little bit even after the grave, 389 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 1: about a century after Cope's death, national geographic photographer Luis 390 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: Sahoyo Scott cope skull from the University of Pennsylvania. Cope 391 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: had willed his body to science, so this was available, 392 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: and he took the skull with him as he traveled 393 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: around the world interviewing paleontologists for a book, and he 394 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: referred to the skull as he was doing this as Eddie. Later, 395 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: he and paleontologist Robert Baker tried to have cope skull 396 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: named as the hype specimen, which means that it would 397 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: have been the standard of a species to which all 398 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,479 Speaker 1: others are compared. He wanted to have it named as 399 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: a type specimen for Homo sapiens, but it turned out 400 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: that the late botanist Careless Linnaeus had already been named 401 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 1: the type specimen for Homo sapiens. So thank goodness for 402 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,719 Speaker 1: Linnaeus able to to step in there with his skull 403 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: and and stop this feud from continuing after death. Yeah, 404 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: I read elsewhere that one reason that Cope will his 405 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: body to sciences that he wanted them to compare his 406 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: skull size to Marsha's after Marsh died, But Marsh didn't 407 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: leave any sort of instructions to have his skull studied 408 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: after the fact, so they didn't ever get to resolve 409 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: that question. I think that's for the best. Yeah, it's 410 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 1: better just to look at the story, look at their accomplishments, 411 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 1: and decide for yourself. I think who's the winner. But 412 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 1: I'm curious for listeners to write in and tell us 413 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: if they have a favorite in this war. I know 414 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: that in the War of the Currents, for example, Tesla 415 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: was the overwhelming favorite among our listeners at least, And 416 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: so I wonder, Cope or Marsh do you have a favorite? Terah, 417 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 1: who do you think you would have been pals with? I? Well, 418 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 1: I mean I don't know. Do I think the guy 419 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 1: who didn't have any friends? I mean, odds are You're 420 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: a nice person, so I could see I should have 421 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: made friends with Marsh. I don't know they I found 422 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: myself during this story kind of rooting for each of them, 423 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 1: and I think that for each of them, and then 424 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: thinking that they were each terrible, terrible people. So maybe 425 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 1: I'll pass on the Yeah, okay, you're taking your pleading 426 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: the fifth. Yeah, do you have a Do you have 427 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 1: a pick? I mean, I guess I sort of agree 428 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: with you, although I found myself sympathizing with Cope a 429 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: little bit more. And maybe it's because some of the 430 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: articles that I read were more biased in that direction. 431 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 1: But I think it may also have a lot to 432 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: do with the fact that, at least from what I read, 433 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: from the evidence that I saw, it seemed that Marsh 434 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: kind of did the dirtier stuff, like the dynamiting of 435 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: dig sites. I didn't like that at all, So that's 436 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: not cool. Maybe Cop did it too, but I didn't 437 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: read any evidence that he had. Okay, I'll stick to 438 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: the Braunosaurus. Stick with the brontosaurus. There you go, friends, Uh, well, 439 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: before we go off to too far on a dinosaur tangent. 440 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: So we have a very special listener meal today, wouldn't 441 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 1: you say, to Blina, Special and delicious, Special and delicious. 442 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: It's a bottle of wine. Yeah, it's a gift we 443 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: got in the mail. We got it from listener Dana. 444 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 1: And what's it called again, It's called Brushelle Vineyards Rose. 445 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 1: We're gonna try it out after our recording session. But um, 446 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 1: we wanted to read Dana's note too, because she had 447 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: some ideas for future podcast too. She wrote Derris to 448 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: Blina and Sarah, Greetings from Paso Robless, California. My husband 449 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: and I work in the wine industry out here, and 450 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 1: we just finished a very long and grueling harvest feed sin. 451 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 1: My husband admitted that your podcast helped him through all 452 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: the brute donkey work that harvesting tails from pits to 453 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: punch downs to the bottling line. So I wanted to 454 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,959 Speaker 1: say thank you for providing such a welcome day version 455 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: during the most exhausting time of the year. Of course, 456 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: we do love it. She went on to say, please 457 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 1: accept this bottle of rose from the wine or a 458 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: work at as our humble thanks. Sorry to Bolina, it 459 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: isn't sweet, but I grew up in Atlanta, and I 460 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: guarantee it's what my mom called a quote porch founder. 461 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 1: That's while we're for for after the episode. Um. But 462 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: she She went on to say too that she figured 463 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 1: she would use this opportunity to say that the historic 464 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:46,679 Speaker 1: alcohol series we did with their favorite obvious reasons, but 465 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: she really wanted us to revisit wine as a topic 466 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: at some point, and a lot of listeners have been 467 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 1: suggesting this lately. Um something else on wine. Her suggestions 468 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: in particular were the quote cunning wealthy wine barrens of 469 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: the offs child Dan dynasty or the story of why 470 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:07,400 Speaker 1: Charlemagne's wife insisted Burgundy plant more white grapes. She went 471 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: on to say, it's very funny, I promise so cool idea. 472 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: Thank you Dana for for some wine suggestions and for 473 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 1: the look. We're looking forward to it, thank you so much. Yes, 474 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 1: and it's a lovely gift and a lovely thing to enjoy, 475 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: but we're unfortunately going to be partaking of it for 476 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 1: kind of sad reasons. We're happy, happy and sad for us, 477 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: but happy for our producer and editor, Lizzie, who has 478 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: been with us for a long time. She's been editing 479 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 1: this podcast for a very long time, and she's moving 480 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,680 Speaker 1: on to another really wonderful opportunity. Lizzie is a fabulous 481 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: photographer and she's going to be pursuing that a little 482 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: bit more directly, and we're gonna miss her so much. 483 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: We are. Lizzie is so fun to work with. She 484 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 1: always has good comments on on what we're talking about. 485 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: It's always fun to rehash the subjects with her after 486 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 1: recording and sort of let slip our secret opinions on 487 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: certain topic and she always makes wonderful things happen in 488 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: the editing process. Whenever we have any crazy idea about 489 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 1: inserting music into the podcast or anything like that, she 490 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: always helps us work it out or just cleaning us up, 491 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: you know, yes, making us sound good. Um. But we 492 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,640 Speaker 1: are so happy for Lizzie to go off to new 493 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: and better things. And um, like de Blanta just said, 494 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: she's a fantastic photographer. She has a website, Lizzie photo 495 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: dot com. It's Lizzie with a why as it took 496 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: me way too long to why do we learn? Um, 497 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: But she's great. Good luck, We will miss you. Good luck, Lizzie, 498 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: you will be missed. To keep in touch with us, 499 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: and um, hopefully we'll get to see a lot of 500 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: your great work out there very soon. So on that note, 501 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: we want to wrap it up and invite anyone who 502 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: wants to to write to us with ideas, comments, questions, 503 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: anything that is on your mind. We're at History Podcast 504 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 1: at Discovery dot com. You can also find us on 505 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: Facebook and we're on Twitter at Myston History. And as 506 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: we mentioned in the last Bone Wars episode, we have 507 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: so many articles on dinosaurs. We actually have a site 508 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: director who loves dinosaurs, so it ensures that we are 509 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: well stocked on all topics paleontology related, So go check 510 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: that out. It's all in our science section on www. 511 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 1: Dot how stuff works dot com. For more on this 512 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics, is it how stuff works 513 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: dot com.