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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: Breaking news Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie missing, day three.

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Speaker 2: What does a mystery car have to do with this? Also,

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Speaker 2: we are learning the DNA found inside missus Guthrie's home

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Speaker 2: is her DNA. That DNA significant because it leads law

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Speaker 2: enforcement to state that she has been abducted. When asked,

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Speaker 2: is abducted to strong over a word to use?

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Speaker 3: The Pima County.

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Speaker 2: Sheriff says no, she was dragged out of her home,

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Speaker 2: this eighty four year old grandma in the night. I'm

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Speaker 2: Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank

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Speaker 2: you for being with us, first of all, joining me

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Speaker 2: in All Star panel to make sense of what we

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Speaker 2: are learning right now. We're getting to the DNA found

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Speaker 2: in her home. It's been reported that it was blood.

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Speaker 2: We don't know that yet, but we do know it

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Speaker 2: is Nancy Guthrie's DNA. However, it's her home. Of course

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Speaker 2: her DNA is there. So what concerns the police about

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Speaker 2: that DNA?

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Speaker 3: Is it the amount of DNA?

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Speaker 2: Is it the location of the DNA. I'm going to

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Speaker 2: get into it, but I need to go to Grace

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Speaker 2: Stafford right now, it's doctor Grace Stafford. He is the

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Speaker 2: star podcast zoo Logic, author of zoo Meility. He is

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Speaker 2: faculty member at Grand King University, and so much more.

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Speaker 2: But doctor Gray Stafford, let me get right to it.

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Speaker 2: You are joining us from Arizona. You're familiar intimately with

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Speaker 2: this jurisdiction. What can you tell me about the terrain

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Speaker 2: and the animal life.

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Speaker 4: Nancy as her neighborhood, it implies she's located at the

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Speaker 4: base of the Santa Catalina Mountain range, and so with

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Speaker 4: that wild habitat and change of elevation, it's much cooler

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Speaker 4: there than you would see, say in Phoenix, Arizona. Downtown Phoenix.

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Speaker 4: It's about twice elevation the Phoenix, so the daytime and

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Speaker 4: nighttime temperatures are cooler. With that change of elevation, you

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Speaker 4: might get some wildlife coming in from the mountains looking

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Speaker 4: for prey. Animals like mountain lions would not be uncommon

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Speaker 4: to drop into those kind of wild urban areas like

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Speaker 4: where she lives.

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Speaker 3: What do you mean by that?

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Speaker 2: It would not be uncommon for mountain lions to be

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Speaker 2: in the area.

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Speaker 4: Well, any wildlife is going to look for prey, and

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Speaker 4: with all the human activities there, golf courses and so forth.

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Speaker 4: There's a lot of grass. You're going to have prey

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Speaker 4: species like hallalina deer, rabbits and other small mammals, and

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Speaker 4: so predators like mountain lions frequently will drop in from

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Speaker 4: their more wild habitats to forge and then high tail

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Speaker 4: it out of there back into the mountains.

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Speaker 2: Gray Again, thank you for being with us. I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to identify what, if any perils she would face.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: I don't believe that Nancy Guthrie, who has mobility issues,

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Speaker 2: no dementia, no cognitive decline, I do not believe that

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Speaker 2: she walked out of her place.

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Speaker 3: On a walk about.

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Speaker 2: However, she may be out in that terrain at someone

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Speaker 2: else's by someone else's hand. You stated about the temperatures,

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Speaker 2: how they dip at night, how cold it gets. You've

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Speaker 2: told me about the wildlife in the area. Well, can

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Speaker 2: you tell me about the terrain itself around her neighborhood.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's relatively flat, but it quickly climbs in elevation

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Speaker 4: like any foothills area, and Mountain Lemon is found within

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Speaker 4: this mountain range. It's one of the top highest peaks

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Speaker 4: in Arizona. So you do get a rapid change of

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Speaker 4: elevation once you leave her neighborhood, and exposure is certainly concerned.

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Speaker 4: Although we've had a mild winter, temperatures right now are

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Speaker 4: running ten to twelve degree fair night, higher than normal,

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Speaker 4: but still that's really it's wintertime. It's still rather cool

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Speaker 4: for someone to be out and be exposed to the

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Speaker 4: elements for a long period of time.

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Speaker 3: And at her age.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Gray Stafford straight to Dave mac joining US Crime

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Speaker 2: Stories investigative reporter, Dave.

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Speaker 3: A lot is happening, and it's happening quickly.

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Speaker 2: Number One, we know that DNA is found at the scene.

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Speaker 2: That is Nancy Guthries. We know that DNA made police

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Speaker 2: believe that a struggle had ensued and she was actually

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Speaker 2: kidnapped from her home. Hold on, I'm going to take

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Speaker 2: this to Brian Fitzgibbons. Brian, you are being told from

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Speaker 2: your sources that no one will confirm what type of

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Speaker 2: DNA it is, regardless of media outlets insisting that it's blood.

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Speaker 3: What do you know.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so media outlets have provided information that there was blood,

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Speaker 5: but the Pima County Sheriff's Office, in a statement release

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Speaker 5: two media outlets has not confirmed that reporting that they

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Speaker 5: are saying that they've connected the DNA to missus Guthrie,

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Speaker 5: but they will not indicate if that is indeed blood.

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Speaker 3: Brian Fitzgibbons, There had to be something.

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Speaker 2: It just assumed that the media outlets are correct that

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Speaker 2: it is her blood. There had to be something about

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Speaker 2: the blood that raised law enforcements suspicions, because her blood

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Speaker 2: can be on a knife in the kitchen, It could

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Speaker 2: be on the kitchen sink, it could be.

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Speaker 1: In the bathroom.

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Speaker 2: She may have had a nosebleed, she may have cut

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Speaker 2: her finger, she may have stubbed her toe.

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Speaker 3: That's not suspicious.

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Speaker 2: What would be suspicious about her blood that would concern

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Speaker 2: law enforcement? Brian Fitzgibbons. Is the amount of the blood?

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Speaker 2: Is it a copious amount of blood? Or the location

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Speaker 2: of the blood. Is there blood on the door the

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Speaker 2: front door? Is she is being taken out of the door,

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Speaker 2: or the nature of the blood Brian fits Is it

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Speaker 2: a spray indicating a gunshot wound? Is are there is

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Speaker 2: there blood spatter indicating a sharp instrument was used and

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Speaker 2: that she was bludgeoned. So what I'm trying to get

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Speaker 2: at Briaitzgibbons. Just her blood or her DNA there in

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Speaker 2: her home means nothing has gotten to be either the location,

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Speaker 2: the amount, or the nature of the blood way in

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Speaker 2: fits Gibbons correct.

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Speaker 5: And you look at this crime scene as it's been

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Speaker 5: called by p mac County Sheriff Nanos that this is

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Speaker 5: indeed a crime scene, that he does have evidence of

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Speaker 5: a forced entry, that he does have evidence at the

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Speaker 5: crime scene that missus Guthrie left against her will, and

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Speaker 5: you combine that with DNA found at the scene, you

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Speaker 5: know that paints a picture of what we're seeing. Was

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Speaker 5: there a trail of blood leading out to the driveway,

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Speaker 5: Was there blood spatter? Something connected the dots with those

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Speaker 5: other statements that the sheriff made to lead to this

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Speaker 5: conclusion that that DNA connected the dots on this being

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Speaker 5: a potential abduction.

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Speaker 2: And again joining us doctor Stafford Gray. Another issue is this,

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Speaker 2: when we hear blood, Nancy Guthrie's blood caused.

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Speaker 3: Concern amongst l E law enforcement.

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Speaker 2: That doesn't I'm trying to look at this in a

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Speaker 2: bright light, in the best light possible for missus Guthrie.

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Speaker 2: That does not necessarily mean she was bludgeoned or stabbed

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Speaker 2: or shot. Maybe she was struck. Maybe when you are

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Speaker 2: struck in the face, a nose bleed can be very profuse.

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Speaker 1: You bleed a lot.

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Speaker 2: From any injury around your nose or your mouth. So

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Speaker 2: that could be a more innocent explanation. Not a good one,

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Speaker 2: but a more innocent one.

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Speaker 4: Yes, it certainly could. And as your other guests pointed out,

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Speaker 4: it's the amount, it's the proximity to the house, the driveway,

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Speaker 4: was it a trail, was it a single spot? A

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Speaker 4: lot of open questions still.

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Speaker 2: You know, I want to go back over what we're

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Speaker 2: learning at this hour for those of you just joining us.

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Speaker 2: Nancy Guthrie is eighty four. She is the mom of

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Speaker 2: our friend Savannah Guthrie of NBC Today. She's five five,

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Speaker 2: She weighs about one hundred and fifty pounds, brown hair,

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Speaker 2: beautiful blue eyes. She lives alone, upskilled community. Last scene

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Speaker 2: Sunday evening.

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Speaker 3: At a church function.

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Speaker 2: Last scene Saturday evening at a church function. The following morning,

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Speaker 2: when it's time for her to go to church services. No, Nancy,

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Speaker 2: she has mobility problems. I'm guessing someone came to give

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Speaker 2: her a ride and she didn't come to the door.

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Speaker 2: The front door unlocked. We are now learning there are

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Speaker 2: signs of forced entry. The lights in the front of

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Speaker 2: the home were on. We are learning and this isn't

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Speaker 2: helping anything. Brian fitzgibbons that there is a gravel driveway.

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Speaker 2: We're not going to get any car prints or any

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Speaker 2: car evidence off gravel.

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Speaker 5: Explain, no, you're not going to collect any And I'll

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Speaker 5: add to this the neighborhood itself. Not only are there

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Speaker 5: dirt and gravel driveways, these houses are set back quite

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Speaker 5: far off of the road, so the chance of catching

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Speaker 5: doorbell camera footage or security camera footage from neighboring houses

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Speaker 5: is very low. In my opinion, when you look at

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Speaker 5: the scenery on that street, it's very unlikely that law

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Speaker 5: enforcement is going to be able to get any significant

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Speaker 5: security footage from neighbors. Just the houses are set back

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Speaker 5: quite a bit off of the road. It looks to

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Speaker 5: be anywhere from fifty to one hundred yards, and there's

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Speaker 5: vegetation along the side of the road for privacy, so

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Speaker 5: you can see you can see that there on the map.

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Speaker 5: As you get down on that road. That vegetation is

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Speaker 5: pretty tall, and I've seen some videos from the road itself.

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Speaker 5: So it's going to be unlikely that those cameras are capturing.

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Speaker 1: Any crime stores with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: You know, I've got a time discrepancy. Dave Mac Dave

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Speaker 2: Matt Crime Stories, investigative reporter. Maybe it's not a discrepancy

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Speaker 2: because I had a judge, an awesome judge, oldest judge

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Speaker 2: in the courthouse, Luther Alberson, that would tell the jury

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Speaker 2: every jury trial, it is your duty to make all

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Speaker 2: witnesses speak the truth in puny perjury on no one.

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Speaker 2: In other words, two statements can both be true and

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Speaker 2: we have to figure out how to reconcile them.

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Speaker 3: We are learning from a neighbor.

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Speaker 2: That she was taken out of the home short quote,

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Speaker 2: shortly after being dropped off after church on Saturday night.

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Speaker 2: And I guarantee you there is not a church pop

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Speaker 2: look going on at two forty five a m.

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Speaker 3: Dave Mac.

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Speaker 6: To be very clear here, Annie Guthrie, Savannah Guthrie's older sister,

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Speaker 6: was with her mom and is the last person to

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Speaker 6: see her mom. It was Annie Guthrie who dropped Nancy

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Speaker 6: Guthrie off between ninety nine PM. That's what Annie says.

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Speaker 6: Something else that comes into play Nancy. There was blood

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Speaker 6: drops from the entryway of the house leading out to

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Speaker 6: the driveway. Something else. Lights in the common area I

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Speaker 6: used plural lights in the common area of the home

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Speaker 6: were left on. The front door was unlocked, but there

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Speaker 6: was forced entry, and something else that was said that

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Speaker 6: the doorbelt camera had been removed before law enforcement arrived,

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Speaker 6: and it was phrased just that way. I don't know

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Speaker 6: what that means, but they said it was removed before

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Speaker 6: they arrived. So we've got a woman who cannot walk

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Speaker 6: fifty yards on our own, We've got blood going from

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Speaker 6: the entryway to the driveway, and we do have a

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Speaker 6: neighbor saying he thought she saw a mysterious car in

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Speaker 6: that neighborhood on that road near that house. Shortly after

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Speaker 6: Annie Guthrie dropped your mom off.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Dave mac, I want you to go through the

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Speaker 2: sailing at points one more time, because every one of

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Speaker 2: them is primitive. Each thing you said proves something.

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Speaker 3: Start over all right.

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Speaker 6: Annie Guthrie, the oldest daughter of Nancy, was out to

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Speaker 6: dinner with Nancy on Saturday night and dropped her off

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Speaker 6: at her home between nine thirty and nine five pm.

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Speaker 6: That's Annie Guthrie the last person to see Nancy Guthrie.

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Speaker 6: We have blood evidence, a blood trail going from the

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Speaker 6: entryway of the home out to the driveway. We have

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Speaker 6: a front door that is unlocked, but polis there was

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Speaker 6: force entry. We have lights on in the common areas

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Speaker 6: of the home. We know that Nancy Guthrie suffers from

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Speaker 6: no type of Alzheimer's or dementia. She sharp as attack,

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Speaker 6: but she has physical issues so that she cannot walk

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Speaker 6: on her own for fifty yards. So we have a

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Speaker 6: neighbor that also says she saw a mysterious vehicle and

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Speaker 6: one she didn't recognize in the neighborhood shortly after the

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Speaker 6: time Nancy Guthrie was dropped off by her oldest daughter Annie,

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Speaker 6: or between nine thirty and nine forty five that evening

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Speaker 6: Saturday night. And by the way, Nancy Guthrie attended church

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Speaker 6: services so regularly. When she did not show up for

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Speaker 6: her eleven AM worship service as usual, by eleven ten,

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Speaker 6: members of the church were on the phone with BAM

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Speaker 6: members saying, Hey, your mom's not at church and that's

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Speaker 6: why any they were over at Nancy Guthrie's home right away.

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Speaker 6: They spent an hour looking all inside the home and

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Speaker 6: around the home before they called police and notified them

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Speaker 6: that she was gone.

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Speaker 2: I need you to add in, Dave mac what you

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Speaker 2: learned about the door cam.

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Speaker 6: The door cam was shocking to me, Nancy, because of

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Speaker 6: the phrasing that was used in this. Law enforcement says

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Speaker 6: the door camera, the doorbell camera was removed before they arrived,

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Speaker 6: and that was the terminology used that this camera had

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Speaker 6: been removed before they arrived.

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Speaker 2: Day back again, what did you say about missus Guthrie's

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Speaker 2: doorbell cam being removed?

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Speaker 6: That's what law enforcement says, that she did have one,

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Speaker 6: but that doorbell camera was removed before they made it

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Speaker 6: to her house.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that puts a whole nother layer of planning onto this,

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Speaker 2: and that is why I'm saying, fitz Gibbons, that this

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Speaker 2: is not random. This is not a guy wandering around

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Speaker 2: and yes, typically it's a man wandering around that upscale

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Speaker 2: neighborhood looking to steal your VCR or seeing your jewelry

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Speaker 2: lying out by your bed, or taking your electronics.

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Speaker 3: No, this is not some dope p.

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Speaker 2: Add it coming in to get your oxy for your

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Speaker 2: knee surgery.

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Speaker 3: This is targeted. This is not random.

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Speaker 2: The mystery car allegation compared with taking her doorbell cam.

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Speaker 2: Taking the ring cam put him up. First of all,

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Speaker 2: that's the first sign the person's an idiot, because taking

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Speaker 2: dismantling the doorbell cam does not stop what's already been

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Speaker 2: recorded right now. It's in the clouds somewhere, that.

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Speaker 5: Is correct, and Pema County Sheriff Chris Nanos has indicated

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Speaker 5: that they are making moves right now to get access

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Speaker 5: to that cloud to obtain that footage. And as you mentioned, Nancy,

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Speaker 5: all of these signs knowing the location of a camera

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Speaker 5: or removing it, knowing that Missus Guthrie would be alone,

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Speaker 5: vulnerable at this time, everything points to somebody with insider

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Speaker 5: knowledge of Missus Guthrie.

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Speaker 2: Now, Bryan mus Gibbons, when you first heard Dave might

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Speaker 2: report that her doorbell cam had been taken, so all

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Speaker 2: we know taken before law enforcement got there, you said,

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Speaker 2: what there was video. The fact that the door cam

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Speaker 2: was taken does not preclude the possibility that there was

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Speaker 2: a nanny cam operating on the inside. Maybe in certain

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Speaker 2: areas of the home, like the way the back door.

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Speaker 2: There could be other surveillance camera other than the ring

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Speaker 2: door cam. Correct.

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Speaker 5: There's a very good possibility that somebody liked Missus Guthrie

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Speaker 5: with an association to her daughter, who's such a public figure,

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Speaker 5: would have multiple cameras. It would be difficult to remove

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Speaker 5: all of them in a quick fashion.

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Speaker 2: So, Dave Mac, I want to circle back to you,

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Speaker 2: Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter. We understand that at

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Speaker 2: first we were told that the search of the area

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Speaker 2: has been called off and now they're focusing on the

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Speaker 2: missing person aspect, not the recovery finding her in that

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Speaker 2: area around the home. But now we're learning, Dave Mac,

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Speaker 2: that law enforcement is going back and they are retracing

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Speaker 2: their steps and then moving outward from the home.

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Speaker 6: What do you know, Dave, They're going to not just

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Speaker 6: go outward from the home, Nancy. They're actually expanding what

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Speaker 6: they were originally doing. When they first started the search,

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Speaker 6: they had a ground game plan to go out and search.

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Speaker 6: But now as they've decided to come back, they obviously

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Speaker 6: have information leading them to this. They're going back and

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Speaker 6: retracing not just their footsteps from their original search, but

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Speaker 6: they're also widening the search, making it a little bit

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Speaker 6: bigger on the side. As they go out from her home.

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Speaker 6: They obviously have some information that has led them back

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Speaker 6: down this path, because if you remember, they very quickly

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Speaker 6: said this type of a search is done. Helicopters were gone,

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Speaker 6: drnes were gone. Well, we got helicopters back in the air,

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Speaker 6: we got drones back in the area. So they're doing

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Speaker 6: another search, retracing their footsteps and expanding it a little bit.

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Speaker 2: So Donder Gray Stafford, Star Zoologic podcast zoologist, a consultant,

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Speaker 2: author of faculty A they going to encounter as they

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Speaker 2: expand the search. Okay, you're starting in her at her place,

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Speaker 2: and you're going out out, out out out Geographically.

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Speaker 4: Well, Nancy, A lot of people have the misconception that

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Speaker 4: Arizona is a very barren terrain. There's actually a lot

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Speaker 4: of wildlife and a lot of plant life here, much

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Speaker 4: of which is very hazardous to walk through because they

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Speaker 4: have thorns and that sort of thing. So moving out

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Speaker 4: from our home, there's going to be trails, they're going

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Speaker 4: to be dry washes. When it rains, water will pass through.

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Speaker 4: We haven't had a lot of moisture this winter, so

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Speaker 4: I suspect that it's going to be very dry in

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Speaker 4: the area, but it still may make passage difficult in

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Speaker 4: some of those thick rush areas, away from trails, away

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Speaker 4: from washes.

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Speaker 2: Brian Fitzgibbons, don't you see where the facts are leading us?

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Speaker 2: This is not random. If this were a random burglary,

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Speaker 2: you'd have items taken from the home.

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Speaker 3: We've heard nothing about that. It's not a family member.

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Speaker 3: We know that.

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Speaker 2: Now you have to move out someone that knew her

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Speaker 2: in the sense that they knew of her.

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Speaker 3: They clearly waited.

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Speaker 2: Until Annie dropped her off from the evening church event

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Speaker 2: that Saturday night. According to the neighbor, the mystery car

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Speaker 2: was seen shortly after that, which means they knew when

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Speaker 2: she would be dropped off. Either they were there or

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Speaker 2: they already knew. They have an intimate knowledge of her life,

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Speaker 2: that she lives alone. The doorbell cam was taken off

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Speaker 2: the door. A lot is happening here, indicating it's not random.

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Speaker 2: So let's run with it. Where do you go?

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Speaker 5: Investigators are going to start looking Nancy at anybody who's

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Speaker 5: in and around that house with a degree of regularity.

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Speaker 5: And I say this not to accuse a landscaper, a

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Speaker 5: pool tech, a home health aid, anybody who's a home

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Speaker 5: cleaner coming into that house regularly. They're going to expand

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Speaker 5: and look at who lives with those people, who do

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Speaker 5: they associate with, Who might hear that Savannah Guthrie's mother

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Speaker 5: lives right down the road, and know that this could

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Speaker 5: be a target. So it may not necessarily be that

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Speaker 5: person that contractor that comes into the house, but it

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Speaker 5: could be somebody that's connected to them. And I can

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Speaker 5: guarantee you that investigators are going thoroughly down that list

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Speaker 5: of individuals that have had regular and consistent access to

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Speaker 5: missus Guthrie's home.

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Speaker 2: You know, another issue on Dave mac is Savannah started

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Speaker 2: with me at Court TV. She has covered missing people,

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Speaker 2: She's covered homicide, She's covered it all. She knows all

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Speaker 2: the statistics, she knows all the facts, and this has

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Speaker 2: got to be excruciating for her. I'm trying to paint

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Speaker 2: every fact not only nefariously, but with in the best

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Speaker 2: possible like this has got to be killing her as

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Speaker 2: she gets dribbles in bits of evidence, blood, doorbell, kim gone,

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Speaker 2: just dragged from her bed, mystery car.

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Speaker 3: It's heartbreaking.

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Speaker 6: And Nanthy, I will tell you that one of the

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Speaker 6: things that I noticed when we first started looking into

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Speaker 6: this story is how emotional you got, and how many

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Speaker 6: of her Savannah guthriees Cowords, people who have worked with

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Speaker 6: her over the years, how am emotionally got because she

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Speaker 6: is genuinely, truly liked, and she is actually at her

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Speaker 6: wits end. She's yeah, as you mentioned, she's been down

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Speaker 6: this road and covering stories. Savannah Guthrie is reaching out

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Speaker 6: and saying, please pray, pray for my mom. We need

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Speaker 6: her back. She knows all these signs are sadly not good,

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Speaker 6: and yet there's still hope. And there are even signs

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Speaker 6: out in front of the yard somebody had made in

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Speaker 6: front of Nancy Guthrie's home saying we stand with you.

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Speaker 6: You know, Savannah was on her way to covering the Olympics.

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Speaker 6: You mentioned she just returned to the set of the

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Speaker 6: Today Show a week and a half ago after being

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Speaker 6: off for throat surgery then where she couldn't even speak

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Speaker 6: and her voice is just now coming back. It's been

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Speaker 6: a tough time for her over the last couple of months.

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Speaker 6: She just got back on the set and now she's

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Speaker 6: out of course in Arizona to be there to help

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Speaker 6: find her mom. And I think the shocking part of

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Speaker 6: all of this Nancy is. We have an eighty four

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Speaker 6: year old woman of sound mind, but with physical elements

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Speaker 6: preventing her from being able to go more than fifty yards.

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Speaker 6: She has medication she has to take twenty four hours

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Speaker 6: and the max she can go, and we're now well

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Speaker 6: past that. So she's without her medication. She might be hurt.

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Speaker 6: We've got blood going from the entryway to the driveway Nancy.

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Speaker 7: At this hour, we are following up on claims there

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Speaker 7: could be a ransom note with the alleged kidnappers demanding

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Speaker 7: a specific amount of bitcoin and demanding the cryptocurrency be

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Speaker 7: sent to a specific Bitcoin address to add to the mix.

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Speaker 7: The bitcoin address has been verified as real, the alleged

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Speaker 7: note has been forwarded to the PMA County Sheriff's Office

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Speaker 7: and responding to word the possible ransom note, the PMA

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Speaker 7: County Sheriff's Department took to x to say they are

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Speaker 7: quote aware of reports circulating about possible ransom notes regarding

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Speaker 7: the investigation into Nancy Guthrie. We are taking all tips

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Speaker 7: and lead seriously. Anything that comes in goes directly to

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Speaker 7: our detectives who are coordinating with the FBI. A possible

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Speaker 7: break in the case but as yet unverified.

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Speaker 2: If you know or think you know anything about the

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Speaker 2: disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, the mother of our friend Savannah Guthrie,

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Speaker 2: please dial Pema County Sheriffs five two zero three five

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Speaker 2: one forty nine hundred repeat five two zero three five

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Speaker 2: one forty nine hundred. There is a reward for information

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Speaker 2: that reveals the location of Nancy Guthrie, eighty four year

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Speaker 2: old mother and grandmother. Thank you to our guests, but

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Speaker 2: especially to you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off,

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Speaker 2: But I join Savannah and ask you to continue to

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Speaker 2: pray for the safe return of Nancy Guthrie.

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Speaker 3: Goodbye friend.