1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholtz on Boomberg Radio. 2 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: This week on the podcast, I have a special guest. 3 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: Her name is Kathryn Minshew, and she is the founder 4 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:20,279 Speaker 1: and chief executive officer of the Muse dot com, a 5 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: site that finds itself somewhere in between LinkedIn and glass 6 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: door and some of the other recruiting employment career management 7 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: HR related sites. Her client base are both the companies 8 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: that are hiring millennials and others and the people who 9 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: are seeking jobs. Uh. This is kind of a fascinating 10 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: conversation in that there aren't a lot of relatively young 11 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: women entrepreneurs who have successfully navigated the entire startup, venture capital, 12 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: et cetera. There are many, but we don't know them 13 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: uh as well as we know some of the more 14 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: infamous male counterparts in the world of tech and and 15 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: I found this to be very fascinating and eye opening 16 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: um conversation. So, with no further ado, my conversation with 17 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: Katherine Minshew. My special guest today is Katherine Minshew. She 18 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: is the founder and chief executive officer of the Muse 19 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: dot com, a career platform which has been used by 20 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: over fifty million millennials to help manage their careers. Uh. 21 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: The Muse has five million unique monthly visitors tens of 22 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: thousands of career advice articles. Katherine is also the author 23 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: of a national best seller, The New Rules of Work, 24 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: and she is an operating partner at X factor Ventures, 25 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: a venture capital fund investing in the next generation of 26 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: female founders. Katherine Minshew, Welcome to Bloomberg. Thank you so much. 27 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: I'm excited to be here and I've been looking forward 28 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 1: to having you for a number of reasons. Um we'll 29 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 1: get into some of them later on. One of the 30 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: reasons I really wanted to speak to you is your 31 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: relative rarity in the world of finance and tech. There 32 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 1: aren't a lot of women co founders. Let's let's put 33 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: a pin in that and come back to it later. 34 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: Let's talk more. Start talking about the whole background of 35 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: the Muse. You you founded the site in two thousand 36 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: and eleven. What was the inspiration for the site and 37 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: what was the muse behind the name the Muse. So, 38 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: the very short version is I wanted it and it 39 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: didn't exist. Um. The slightly longer version is um so 40 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: in two thousand, eight, thousand nine, I was living here 41 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: in New York City working at McKinsey and Company as 42 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: a consultant, and I knew that I didn't want to 43 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: be a career consultant, but I wasn't sure what it 44 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: was I did want to do. So, you know, like 45 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: many people my age, I sort of on the older 46 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: end of the millennial demographic. I went online and I 47 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: looked at all the big job boards, the major sites 48 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: that everyone here is familiar with, and I just kept thinking, 49 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: there is something really broken about this experience. To give 50 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: you an example, on one of the biggest job aggregators, 51 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: I was typing in Business Strategy Director and it was 52 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: showing me assistant store manager, seven eleven cea Caucus, New Jersey, 53 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: and I remember thinking, like, this can't be the best 54 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 1: there is, and even you know I'm a big fan 55 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: of LinkedIn, it was just showing me more consulting jobs, 56 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: the same thing I've been doing, but more of the same. 57 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: And I kept thinking, you know, when I look at 58 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: other people in my peer set, people that are getting 59 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: started in their career, people that in their early thirties 60 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 1: changing jobs, many of them are making decisions about where 61 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: they want to work based on things like the growth, 62 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: opportunities involved in the role, the culture and values of 63 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: the organization, and none of that was evident on most 64 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: of the job search sites that I was seeing and using, 65 00:03:57,560 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: and so I thought, well, what would it look like 66 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: to create a better one? And my co found and 67 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: I we had a you know, a white board a 68 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: living room in Brooklyn. It was very, very stereotypical, but 69 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: we started to imagine this much more visual, personalized, immersive 70 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: career site that really took people by the hand and 71 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,040 Speaker 1: helped them navigate their careers and for companies, helped them 72 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: tell a story about what it was like to work there, 73 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 1: why would somebody want to come join their organization, and 74 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: what sort of person would be most successful or most 75 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: happy there? Um, And that's and that's really where the 76 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: idea for the news came from. So so that raises 77 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: a question that's fascinating. And I don't requal if I 78 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: read this on the site or in your book, but 79 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: the phrase career satisfaction comes up over and over again. 80 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: What is career satisfaction? Career satisfaction is um feeling like 81 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 1: you are in the place that you're meant to be, 82 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: or that you can wake up on most days not 83 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: every day, but most days on the balance, you wake 84 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: up and you're fairly excited to go into work. Um 85 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I'm a realist. No job is 86 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: going to be perfect. We're not talking about sort of this, 87 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 1: you know, follow your bliss kind of um pie in 88 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: the sky thing. But at the same time, I think 89 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: all of us see in our relationships and our friends 90 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: and our family the difference between when someone is at 91 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: some measure satisfied or or content in their role at 92 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: their company and their career, and when someone is deeply dissatisfied. 93 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: And I believe that the benefits both to the individual 94 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 1: but also frankly at a at a macro level, to 95 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: the economy, to companies when you have people in the 96 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: right spots are massive. And I think we're at a 97 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: point where we can and should expect more from our 98 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: careers and and that sort of career satisfaction is one 99 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 1: of the things that I think a lot of people 100 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 1: are driving. So how do you get from a consultant 101 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 1: at Mackenzie to making the leap to Hey, everything is 102 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: broken and we can't even patch it. We have to 103 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: start by building a new site from the ground up. 104 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: How does that transition take place, and and the big 105 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: consultancies like Mackenzie, they're a pretty cushy gig. It's very 106 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: challenging to say I'm going to give up all the 107 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 1: money and the and the career job security and make 108 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 1: a leap. How did that come about? You know, UM, 109 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: call me crazy, but I have always been willing to 110 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: take a a jump if it was something that I was, 111 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: you know, significantly passionate about. And UM for the idea 112 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: behind the muse. It actually started smaller at first, so UM. 113 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 1: In fall of two thousand ten, I started a UM 114 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 1: I guess you could call it an online blog, a 115 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: community that was aimed at sort of you know, driven, 116 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: UM ambitious women in their twenties and thirties. And I 117 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: started it with a couple other women and it was 118 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: it was it was a side project for all of us. 119 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 1: We had other roles. I actually left Mackenzie in goodness 120 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: June and moved to Kigali, Rwanda to work with the 121 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: Clinton Health Access Initiative on vaccine introduction, which is a 122 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: whole other story. But I had come back from Rwanda, 123 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: was still working for Chai and UM and all four 124 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: of us started this project. No no, sorry, Chaia's Clinton 125 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: Health Access Initiative. That just a mouthful. It's it's the 126 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: sort of health wing of the international nonprofit that does 127 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: um vaccine introduction, HIV AIDS work, et cetera. So that 128 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: was my day job. And the other women were all 129 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: at McKinsey, including my co founder of the Muse, Alex 130 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: and we just we started building this small community. And 131 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: what was so interesting to me is other people, other 132 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: women in the community, had the same issues that I 133 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: was having around the broader search for a satisfying career, 134 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: finding the right job, the right company. UM. And I 135 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: don't know, it wasn't so much you know, a single 136 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: individual lightning bolt as a series of small ideas and moves. 137 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: And once I realized that the entire industry was effectively 138 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: ignoring a lot of the needs of the millennial population, 139 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: it suddenly just became so clear to me that there 140 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: was this massive opportunity and if you know, if if 141 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: I didn't step in and try and build something, um, 142 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,559 Speaker 1: who would Let's talk a little bit about the old 143 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: business model, which you have described the old business model 144 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: for finding, recruiting and hiring new employees. You've described that 145 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: as broken. I think the days when a company can 146 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: expect to just stick an advertisement for a job on 147 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: the Internet and that the best and brightest talent in 148 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: the world are gonna walk right up and compete for 149 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: that job. Those days are over and um what I'm 150 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: seeing in the market, and I think one of the 151 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: principles that the Muse was built on is that the 152 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: balance of power between candidates and companies is changing. Companies 153 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: and the MUS works with around seven hundred of many 154 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: of the best, most recognizable brands in the world. They're 155 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: competing for great talent, and they're not just competing with 156 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: their traditional competitors. You know, a major technology company might 157 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: be competing with a large global financial institution who might 158 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: be competing with a with a CpG or consumer you know, 159 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 1: consumer goods company. And I think especially when you look 160 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 1: at talent like um engineers, top sales people, many of 161 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: them want to join a business where they feel like 162 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: the values of the organization align with their own. They're 163 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: looking for growth opportunities. We call it the three piece people, purpose, 164 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 1: and path. But they're looking for these things within their employer, 165 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 1: and companies are starting to have to focus on their talent, 166 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:20,679 Speaker 1: brand recruitment, marketing and other elements of really um showcasing 167 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: themselves and competing for talent in the open market. And 168 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: I think that's opening a really interesting set of opportunities 169 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: for the businesses that are doing it well. So let 170 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: me push back a little bit on a phrase you 171 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: said that quote my ear, which is candidates want to 172 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: work for a place that aligns with their values. Now, 173 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 1: theoretically that sounds wonderful, but realistically in the real world, 174 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: how significant a factor is that? Is this something that 175 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: is genuine? Is it a function of a fairly fully 176 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 1: employed workforce and the balance of power at least at 177 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: this phase of the cycle, seems to have shifted to 178 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: the employee or is this a permanent change in how 179 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: employees or potential employees get to behave Yeah, I believe 180 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: the change is permanent, although you'll see it flex stronger 181 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: and weaker as the economy cycles through. A couple data 182 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,199 Speaker 1: points I think are really interesting here. So Deloitte recently 183 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: did a millennial survey that indicated that of millennials had 184 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 1: turned down a job because they didn't like the values 185 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: of the employer brand of the company that the job 186 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: offer came from. Similarly, in a survey about what UM 187 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: what's important to you in life of millennials indicated that 188 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 1: meaningful work was a core component of what was satisfying them. 189 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: And this was this was I believe, a Wells Fargo study. 190 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: And so when you look across the demographic, they're raising 191 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: the expectations on employers. And of course this isn't going 192 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: to be a perfect alignment. But I think even recently politically, 193 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of talk about UM some of 194 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: the chief executives withdrawing from various presidential advisory councils. Some 195 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: of that has also been driven by internal employee groups 196 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: and advocy groups standing up and saying, as employees, these 197 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: are our values and pushing their chief executives to take 198 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: a stand. And I think that this is a really 199 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,559 Speaker 1: interesting time because again we are we're sort of redefining 200 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 1: the contract between individual employees and the organizations that they 201 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: support UM. And I do think some of these changes 202 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: are permanent, and I think the businesses that understand how 203 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: to navigate them, they're going to have a huge edge 204 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 1: in recruiting and retaining great people over the businesses that 205 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: don't understand this. So who I want to better understand 206 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 1: the business model of the muse and the natural comparison 207 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: is linked in. So who are the clients? Are your 208 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: clients these companies? Are they the millennials who are potential hires? 209 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: Is that the nexus the marketplace between the two. How 210 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: does MWS actually operate? Yeah, so we started as a marketplace. UM. 211 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: As you mentioned, we have fifty million people every year 212 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:58,959 Speaker 1: who come to the MEWS to navigate their careers and 213 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: that is our sort of most important and initial user community, etcetera. 214 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: But our business model is based on the employers and 215 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: it's a few things. UM. One, we're able because we 216 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: have this massive community to leverage a huge amount of 217 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: data and information about what matters to the individuals. UM. 218 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: Sometimes we call ourselves the voice of the candidate. UM. 219 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:20,959 Speaker 1: You know, it's funny because not all of our users 220 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,319 Speaker 1: are candidates. Many of them are happily employed and they 221 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: come to the views in between changing jobs as well 222 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: as when they're looking for a new role. But from 223 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:32,319 Speaker 1: the from the individual user side, we're able to really 224 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: help people find new jobs, explore companies and career paths, 225 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 1: take classes, get advice and information. And that's a mostly 226 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: free service that we provide for the community. On the 227 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: employer side, as I said, we have about seven customers 228 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: and it's essentially an annual subscription product as sas business 229 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: in which we're helping them essentially capture, create, distribute, and 230 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: measure elements of their talent brand. So without getting hyper 231 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: specific of them, I'm happy to go as deep into 232 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: it as you want. Fascinating, I want to. I want 233 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 1: to get into the nitty gritty. Yeah, So so let's 234 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: start with the beginning. So capture um. The days at 235 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: which a company could just say we're a great place 236 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: to work or we value diversity and inclusion, those days 237 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 1: are gone. Companies now exactly trust us. That doesn't work anymore. 238 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: Companies now have to show, not tell, and the best 239 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: way to do that is through the voices of their 240 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: current employees. In fact, research has shown continuously that candidates 241 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: are much more likely to trust a specific story, a 242 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 1: real human anecdote from one of your people, than they 243 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: are some sort of generic marketing jargon. And so we 244 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: actually help companies go in and we have a we 245 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: have a sort of story capture technology that allows them 246 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:44,079 Speaker 1: to source both qualitative and quantitative data about what their 247 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: current employees think. Why do their best people show up 248 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: every day and how does that vary based on the 249 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 1: Dallas office versus the Chicago office or different parts of 250 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: the company. Then, armed with both the data about what 251 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: is this company's talent brand, what are their own employees 252 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: saying about it, and the stories that those employees are telling, 253 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: we can then help the companies create all of the 254 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: materials that they might use in their recruitment marketing. So 255 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 1: this is everything from helping them build out a better 256 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 1: career website, helping them understand when their recruiters are reaching 257 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: out and contacting people, how are they telling a story 258 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: about why somebody would want to take a look at 259 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: the opportunity that's actually going to resonate with a candidate UM. 260 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: And then we can help them sort of distribute and 261 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: optimize those messages so they understand what's working in the market, 262 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: what's not and and essentially the goal is to help 263 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: UM for the companies make sure the right sort of 264 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: message gets to the right person at the right time. 265 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: And for candidates, we want to make the entire process 266 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: of UM applying for a job and going through the 267 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: interview process feel much more personalized, feel more human, and 268 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: to help candidates feel like they can make an accurate 269 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: assessment of is this a good company for me? So, 270 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: who are the competitors of the music? I want to 271 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: say glass Door but not exactly and linked In but 272 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: not exactly. You're kind of your own entity. Who do 273 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: you perceive as your own competitors? You know, it's funny 274 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: when we when we started out, and when I started 275 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: the business, it was very much as you said, the 276 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: glass Doors and the LinkedIn's of the world. UM. As 277 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: we've grown, we've seen that. You know, there are certainly 278 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: areas in which we sort of rub up against those companies, 279 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: But I think we're also competing with UM, frankly, with 280 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: with complacency of businesses who do nothing. UM. We've seen, UM, 281 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: some companies are starting to enter the what's been called 282 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: the recruitment marketing space. UM. I honestly I hesitate with 283 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: that word because if I were an individual thinking about 284 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 1: where I'm going to join to spend the next you know, 285 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: two or three, four or five years of my life, 286 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: I wouldn't exactly want to be recruitment marketed to. But 287 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: that's the category name as it exists now. We tend 288 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: to play really nice with those companies were partners with 289 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: many of them because we both have the same goal 290 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: and we're targeting the different parts of UM the talent 291 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: acquisition and and sort of Canada experience space. I think 292 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: that's one of the challenges is we're essentially seeing a 293 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: new category being created right now within HR and Human 294 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: Capital UM and it's kind of changing up, well, who 295 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: are competitors with who? Given that there's a lot of 296 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: white space that companies recognize they need to do something about, 297 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: and I think the businesses that solve that need are 298 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: just being built today. Let's talk a little bit about 299 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: the New Rules of Work? What are they? So? The 300 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: New Rules of Work was our attempt to take all 301 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: of the lessons we've learned over the past five years 302 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: of building out the news and focus on what does 303 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: an individual today navigating their career need to know. So 304 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: we took the three main phases of career as we 305 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: see it. The first being people who are understanding what 306 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: do you want so, out of all of the possible 307 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: career paths and roles, what direction do you want to 308 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: head in. The second large step is how do you 309 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: go and get it? So tactics of finding jobs applying 310 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: to them interviewing, etcetera. And then the third is, once 311 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: you're in a new role, how do you make sure 312 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: that you're succeeding so dealing with difficult colleagues, UM, impressing 313 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: your boss, handling performance reviews, communication in the office, etcetera, etcetera. 314 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: And for each of those we looked at the old 315 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,880 Speaker 1: way of doing things and the new. So, for example, 316 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 1: everything from um, you know, technology has completely changed the 317 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,679 Speaker 1: way some people interview. There are video interviews that are synchronous, 318 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: like a Skype of Google hangout. There's asynchronous where somebody 319 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: might give you a sort of link to record your 320 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 1: answers to questions and then send that off to a 321 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: hiring manager. And the rules are subtly changing and in 322 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: some ways that are very obvious, and um, in others 323 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: that are harder to to sort of put your finger on. 324 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 1: How important is the aspect? And I'm projecting here a 325 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 1: little bit of managing your career as a millennial or 326 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: even someone in their early thirties, it was something I 327 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,120 Speaker 1: never really gave a lot of thought to. Although granted 328 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: that was a previous century, it wasn't this century, but 329 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 1: still are are is this generation that astute that even 330 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: in their twenties, they're already managing their own careers. Yes, absolutely, 331 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 1: And I think if I had to distill the entire 332 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: book down to one single idea, it would be that 333 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 1: you are in the driver's seat of your career and 334 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: it's no one else's job to get where you want 335 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: to go. And that plays out in a lot of 336 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 1: really interesting ways. But yes, even people who are graduating 337 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: from college today are expected much more than five or 338 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: ten years ago to really articulate what they want and 339 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 1: to go out and take steps to get there. And 340 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: I think that that in some ways that there are 341 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: you know that there are opportunities that arise because of this, 342 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: but there's also huge challenges because there's a lot you 343 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: have to figure out if you're expected to drive your 344 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: own career. I've always seen this come up in terms of, 345 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, brand loyalty, that companies 346 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: are much less loyal to employees. They they are big 347 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 1: layoffs when they need need to. And conversely, employees seem 348 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: to know, hey, that really independent contractors, even though they 349 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: may be working for some or you don't know how 350 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: long that's going to last for Has that really changed 351 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: the dynamics of of how either this generation or the 352 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 1: one before or participating in in the labor force. Yes. Absolutely, 353 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 1: And I think when you look at at the millennial generation, 354 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: you have to understand that this is a generation that 355 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: in many cases was coming of age or entering the 356 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: workforce right around the Great Recession, and so many of 357 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: them UM, that was a very formative experience. And I 358 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: think when you look at the relationships they have with companies, 359 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: it's interesting because you see these almost two themes that 360 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: might seem to be contradictory ones that there's less loyalty 361 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: between companies and employees. People are you know, considered the 362 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: sort of the CEO of you inc. Or the the 363 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: as we're saying, the driver's seat of their own career. 364 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 1: They need to be responsible for their own professional development, 365 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: their own advancement. At the same time, UM, individuals are 366 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: raising the expectations they have for companies. They want to, 367 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: as we were saying, find an organization where there's some 368 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: alignment of values. They care about the UM sort of 369 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: the employees experience, the company culture UM. And I think 370 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: that when you dig a little bit deeper, these aren't 371 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 1: I don't believe they're contradictory at all, because I think 372 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 1: it gets to this sense that the relationship is becoming 373 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: one in which individuals are saying, you know, not only 374 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: do I want a paycheck, that's sort of the base case, 375 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: but I want a paycheck and growth opportunities, or a 376 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: paycheck and a chance to advance in my career, or 377 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: a paycheck and etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. They're looking for companies 378 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 1: to provide something more than just the bare minimum. There 379 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: was a statistic on your site that I found astonishing 380 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: and I have to share it with you of job 381 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: candidates first seek out of companies social media presence to 382 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 1: learn more about a potential employer. So people are taking 383 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 1: a Facebook and Twitter to check out a company that's 384 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 1: recruiting them. Is that unique to this generation? Has that 385 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 1: ever existed before in history? You know, I don't know 386 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,360 Speaker 1: that it was possible ten years ago. When you think about, 387 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 1: you know, the access to information that a job seeker 388 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 1: has at their fingertips today compared to a decade ago, 389 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,199 Speaker 1: it's a massive shift, and that's impacting everything about the 390 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: way companies recruit. You know, ten years ago, if you 391 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: were lucky, you could ask your buddy who worked for 392 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:17,880 Speaker 1: a company. Hey, what's what's it really like over there? 393 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:19,919 Speaker 1: You know, what's the scoop. But if you didn't have 394 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 1: somebody you personally knew, or if you if you weren't 395 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 1: sort of well networked in the industry that you were 396 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,679 Speaker 1: looking to move into, what else are you going to do? 397 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: You might go on the corporate website. Um, you know, 398 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: but that's not necessarily known for being a paragon and 399 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: sort of trust in authenticity. And now you know, not 400 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:37,679 Speaker 1: only can you look on LinkedIn and see whether you 401 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: have connections, but um, it's much more common for companies to, 402 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 1: for example, UM put photo and video of their offices 403 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,239 Speaker 1: and their employees online. That was the original product that 404 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 1: the Views built our business model on, was and humanize 405 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: cold corporate entities so they look more appealing to potential employees. 406 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: There's so much that they look more appealing. But it's 407 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: it's this concept of fit, right, Um. You know, five 408 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 1: years ago when I started the business, I used to 409 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 1: have a slide where I took some sentences off the 410 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: career pages of Dell, Intel and IBM, and I had 411 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: the three logos of the companies and the three paragraphs, 412 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: and I said which ones which, and frankly, nobody could 413 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: tell the difference because it was all, you know, we're 414 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: committed to authenticity, where this where that. But what's fascinating 415 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: is if you went into Dell, people all talked about 416 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,919 Speaker 1: certain themes and certain things that they valued about the 417 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: culture there, and that was very, very different from Intel, 418 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: which had this really kind of cool, very competitive different offices, 419 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: and those things are going to fit different types of 420 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: people very well. But from the outside, you know, from 421 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 1: looking at a job description or their company website, you'd 422 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: never be able to tell the difference. And I think 423 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 1: that seemed like such a missed opportunity. So it's less 424 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: about making companies quote unquote look good. In fact, we 425 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: can get into this, but I don't know that I 426 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 1: believe in a sort of vertical sense of, oh, this 427 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: company is good and this company is bad. I think 428 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: it's more who are you and what are you looking for? 429 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,959 Speaker 1: Do you want a company where people are constantly pushing 430 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: each other to succeed, competing against each other or the 431 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 1: clock or the Singapore office, you know, it's very go 432 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,719 Speaker 1: go go, very driven. Or do you want a company 433 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: where people really care about each other, where things are, 434 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: you know, and I'm kind of creating a silly sense 435 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: of opposites. But companies have personalities just like people or 436 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: humans do, and the best company for one person it 437 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 1: might not be the best one for another. And so 438 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: I think that to me, it's just fascinating, you know, 439 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: how can you help companies show that personality? And to 440 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: your question about social channels, that's exactly what candidates are 441 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: looking for. They're saying, Okay, how do they tweet? Do 442 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: they have an Instagram account where their employees can post 443 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: day in the lifestyle pictures? What happens on Facebook? When 444 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: I when I scoped this out, you know, there was 445 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: a fascinating another statistic that the average candidate consumes. I 446 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 1: think it's fourteen pieces of content before they apply for 447 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 1: a job. That's kind of wild when you think about 448 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: just what candidates had access to several years ago. But 449 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: now people are doing their research and they're saying, Okay, 450 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: before I answer this recruiter's email, before I go, you know, 451 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 1: spend twenty or thirty minutes filling out my cover letter 452 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 1: and my resume and everything. Um, okay, you know, do 453 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: I want what you're offering in the first place? And again, 454 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: this is especially true of the most talented individuals, which 455 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: are the people that everybody's fighting over. I want to 456 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,919 Speaker 1: get into the millennials and the modern workforce, but before 457 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: I do, I have to talk a little bit about 458 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: all the craziness that's been going on with venture capital 459 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: farms out in California and technology firms, and the role 460 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 1: of women in these entities. This really has very quickly 461 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: been revealed as an old boys club. Only there's we 462 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: mentioned social media before. There's so much of an intense 463 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: spotlight and so much there is no hiding anymore. This 464 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 1: seems to be coming to the four and changing very rapidly. 465 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: You have a unique perspective on the industry. What do 466 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: you say? You know, it's a fascinating time to be 467 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 1: in tech right now. Um. When I started my business 468 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: two thousand eleven, it was very different. I was often 469 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: one of the only women at tech events. UM. I 470 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: would regularly get asked who I was there for, whether 471 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: I was there because I was dating somebody or you know, 472 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 1: somebody's assistants. Like now I founded a company and UM, 473 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: you know what's interesting is is most people didn't mean 474 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 1: badly assistant though that's a little insulting honey, could you 475 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: get me a cup of coffee? I mean, that's a 476 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: little you know, that's right out of mad men practice, 477 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: and and and it was to some extent. But you 478 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: also have to take the intention behind it, right. Some 479 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 1: people mean it badly and and some people are just 480 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 1: they're just clueless, they don't realize. UM. And I do 481 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: think what's interesting is, you know, there's always been lots 482 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: of good people working in technology, but frankly, any industry 483 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 1: is going to have its bad apples. I think the 484 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: challenge in tech was that for a long time, the 485 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,439 Speaker 1: industry didn't want to talk about the problems, so the 486 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 1: bad apples just kept doing their thing. And what's been 487 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 1: interesting to me is, as we've seen some of these 488 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: revelations recently, women are coming out and saying that, um, 489 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: you know that that certain venture capitalists have behaved highly, 490 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 1: highly inappropriately. It's often many, many, many women, you know, 491 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: with the same people. Because when you have a culture 492 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: that allows certain behavior to go on with impunity. UM, 493 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: I think what you often happen is is a few 494 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: people that are serial offenders. And UM, to be totally candid, 495 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: it's it's been really refreshing the summer that a few 496 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 1: of the most egregious harassers and tech have finally suffered 497 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: some consequences. And this again, this is both on the 498 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: technology company and the venture count. There have been lots 499 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 1: of resignations and lots of founders, CEOs others stepping down 500 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 1: over the past not even twelve months, six months, it's 501 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: been a sea change. Is this a temporary blip and 502 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,679 Speaker 1: then everything will go back to normal or is this 503 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: really a secular change that's taking place. I hope it's 504 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: a more permanent change. And the reason I believe that 505 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 1: that's likely is um, I can't tell you how many 506 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: men in the industry I've talked to who said, God, 507 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 1: this the stuff is terrible, some of these stories that 508 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 1: are coming out. You know, I'm I don't want our 509 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: industry to be a place where this sort of behavior 510 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 1: happens unchecked because when I think you look at when 511 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 1: you look at the technology industry again, you have a 512 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 1: lot of great people who want to work with the 513 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: best of the best. Be those people men, women, black, white. 514 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of people who are very 515 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 1: committed to the idea of of making the best ideas 516 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: sort of uh, you know, surface to the top, yes, exactly, which, 517 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: unfortunately that word has been used in the past to 518 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,120 Speaker 1: play down some of the very real issues of bias 519 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 1: and discrimination that that do exist. UM. But I'm happy 520 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: that that as an industry we're talking about it because 521 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: I think awareness of the problem is the first step 522 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: to making a change. Second step is obviously consequences for 523 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 1: people that are the most um, sort of pervasive harassers. 524 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 1: The one other thing I want to make sure it 525 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: doesn't get lost in this discussion is it's very easy 526 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: to write, um, you know, an our dicle. I mean, 527 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: I don't mean this in any way downplaying that. A 528 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: lot of the articles that have come out have been 529 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: the result of of sort of exhaustive research. But let's 530 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: just say that it's it's easy for someone reading an 531 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: article about severe gender based harassment UM to be outraged 532 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 1: by that. Right, you know, nobody should be put in 533 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 1: a position where someone else is saying, UM, i'll fund 534 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: you if you sleep with me, and we I think 535 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: we've all I hope acknowledged that that's just not appropriate. UM. 536 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 1: And so I think that it's it's great that the 537 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: industry is waking up and saying that's not okay. But 538 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: what I think shouldn't get lost in this discussion is 539 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: that there's also a lot of more subtle bias, what's 540 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: called unconscious bias that also can can can sort of 541 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: hold not only women entrepreneurs back, but entrepreneurs that don't 542 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: look like the standard, uh, the you know, the classic 543 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: hoodie wearing young guy who's a Harvard dropout. Um. There's 544 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: a lot of research that's starting to come out, and 545 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: and Harvard Business Reviews on a really interesting job publishing 546 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: some of the latest that across the board. Male and 547 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: female investors ask different questions of female entrepreneurs than male entrepreneurs. 548 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: They're more likely to see young male entrepreneurs as promising 549 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: and young female entrepreneurs is inexperienced. They ask more questions 550 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: around women how do they protect themselves against risk, whereas 551 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: male entrepreneurs how do you capitalize on opportunities? Which leads 552 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,959 Speaker 1: to very different sorts of assessments of those entrepreneurs. And 553 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: what's been fascinating is there's even been studies where they've 554 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: actually had entrepreneurs present the exact same pitch, but they 555 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: play with the gender and the attractiveness level of the entrepreneur, 556 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: and they found that attractive men were the most likely 557 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: to get funded, followed by unattractive men, followed by unattractive women, 558 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: followed by attractive women. These people are making these unconscious assessments, um. 559 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: And I think that, you know, first again, the first 560 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: step to UH, to realizing this as an investor is 561 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: to being aware of how unconscious bias can play out. 562 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: But I also think as an industry, we're starting to 563 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 1: grapple with you know, what does it really mean to 564 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: create a technology industry where people can get funded with 565 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: great sort of industry changing ideas regardless of whether they 566 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: quote unquote look like the person you'd expect to lead, 567 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 1: you know, to lead a successful business. You know, I've 568 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: I've seen two specific unrelated to tech areas where they've 569 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: done blind um for lack of a better word, interviews. 570 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: One is in professional orchestras, philharmonics, what have you, where 571 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: the player is actually behind a screen and you don't 572 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: get to see them, you only hear them, because after all, 573 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: that's all that matters if you're a violinist or a 574 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: saxophonist or wherever. And that process has completely changed the 575 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: way orchestras quote unquote. Look, it's more genda diverse, it's 576 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 1: more race diverse. It is become a blind meritocracy. And 577 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: I think it might have been Samantha Beast program. When 578 00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: they were hiring comedy writers, they made sure someone literally 579 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: went through all the applications stripped out the name or 580 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: any other identifying characteristics, and people were hired just on 581 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: the quality of their work. And lo and behold, you 582 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: end up with a more diverse group of comedy writers, 583 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: a group of musicians, and net net you get a 584 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: better product. There's a fascinating study as well, um where 585 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: I think it's adjunct professors were asked to grade mathematics 586 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: proofs and when they completely objective and not a subjective 587 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: sort of you would think so. And when they changed 588 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: the gender of the names on top of the proofs, 589 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: um and this again, this was a you know, an 590 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 1: academic sort of fully um, I don't even know the 591 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: right words for it. It was it was the sort 592 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 1: of study that a university puts out and gets behind 593 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: with all the right protocols. When they change the gender 594 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: of the names on top of the mathematics proof female 595 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: names scored on average lower I believe than male names. 596 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: On substantial. You know, in your example about the about 597 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 1: the orchest straw. Before they instituted blind auditions, a lot 598 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: of orchestra leaders would say, look, it's nothing personal. I'm 599 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: not discriminating. Women just don't have the lung capacity to 600 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: play these instruments at the same level. They genuinely believed 601 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: that they were hearing a difference. It was only when 602 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: that difference was physically removed that the disparity in male 603 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: versus female musicians musicians who are hired went away. And 604 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: I do think. I mean it's challenging in technology because 605 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: to some extent an investor is betting on the entrepreneur, 606 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: they are betting on the founder. But the way that 607 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:38,719 Speaker 1: investors measure things like grit, perseverance, determination, ambition, they code 608 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: those things differently in some cases in their assessment of 609 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: male versus female founders. Like grit is a key component 610 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: of an entry level tech job, right is or is 611 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,959 Speaker 1: that just an excuse? Well, you know, I think that, Um, 612 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: I don't think in some cases people mean to make excuses. 613 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 1: I think people go with what they're familiar with, and unfortunately, 614 00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: in tech, what they're familiar with looks like one thing. 615 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: It often leaves out. I think some of the best 616 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,719 Speaker 1: talent and ideas right now that that can help us, 617 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: you know, make big things happen. You would think market 618 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: efficiencies would punish people who were misbehaving in that way. 619 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: But before I I spend too much time on this, 620 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: let's talk about millennials a little bit, because that was 621 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: what I really wanted to discuss in this UH segment. 622 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: You mentioned the data point earlier. I have to bring 623 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: up forty percent of millennials turned down a job because 624 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: the organization's values did not align with theirs. I can't 625 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: imagine any previous generation getting away with that. How how 626 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 1: is that possible? Hey? Thanks, but I just don't dig 627 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: your values and I'm going to turn the job down. 628 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: Is that a realistic thing? It absolutely is, and it's 629 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 1: fascinating and how it plays out. I think we're only 630 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 1: going to see that trend grow. So firstly, um, there's 631 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: projected to be a shortage of one point five million 632 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: knowledge workers by and in some fields the shortage of 633 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: talent is even more intense. So for example, there I 634 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: believe are five open developer jobs for every single developer 635 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: looking for work today. So you have these certain parts 636 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 1: it's I know, it's staggering, and honestly, it should um 637 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 1: you know it, it should really concern you if you're 638 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,839 Speaker 1: a business that needs technology talent to survive, which by 639 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 1: the way, is almost everyone today. And so what what 640 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: you're seeing when you have these imbalances in the types 641 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 1: of talent that businesses are looking for and the number 642 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 1: of people with those skill sets in the market, is 643 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,399 Speaker 1: that those people have the opportunity to be pick here. 644 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: And one of the ways that they're voting with their 645 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 1: feet is they're saying, no, I want to join an 646 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: organization with values that align with mine. Now I want 647 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: to be really clear about what this means. I think 648 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: sometimes executives will come to me after I've given a 649 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: talk or a keynote and they'll say, you know, how 650 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 1: do I compete with Facebook? They have free snacks, or 651 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,919 Speaker 1: I hear Google has a slide. But believe me, it's 652 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 1: not these sort of flashy perks. They make for great, 653 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,919 Speaker 1: you know, magazine articles. But that's not what's driving most 654 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: millennials to choose one opportunity over another. It goes much deeper. 655 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: I mentioned people, purpose and path earlier. Those are what 656 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: we call the three p's internally, But many of the 657 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: talent that uses the Muse to navigate their careers, they're 658 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 1: looking for. Okay, who are the people that I'm going 659 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 1: to be working with? Is that you know on my 660 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: colleagues inspiring to me? Is the leadership someone I can 661 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 1: look up to? What's the purpose of this organization? Does 662 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: it have a clear sense of mission, whether that's social 663 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 1: impact or not. Frankly, it can be UM making a 664 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: you know, a complicated process much more simple for a 665 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,799 Speaker 1: specific buyer. But is there some sort of why or 666 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: reason that the organization exists? And then path what opportunities 667 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: exist for growth and development? And when we work with companies, 668 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: we try and help them really tell that story. UM, 669 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 1: and again, your employees are your best advocates because just 670 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,800 Speaker 1: trying to you know, compete for candidates based on paycheck 671 00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: without taking a look at the rest of it, UM, 672 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: that is going to be a more and more challenging 673 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: strategy as time goes on. We have been speaking with 674 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 1: Katherine Minshue. She is the founder and CEO of the 675 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 1: Muse dot Com. If you enjoy this conversation, be sure 676 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: and stick around for the podcast extras when we keep 677 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:20,839 Speaker 1: the tape rolling and continue discussing all things involving millennial employment. 678 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: We love your comments, feedback and suggestions right to us 679 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 1: at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net. Be sure 680 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,439 Speaker 1: and check out my daily column on Bloomberg View dot com. 681 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: Follow me on Twitter at Rid Halts. I'm Barry Dhults. 682 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. Welcome 683 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,759 Speaker 1: to the podcast, Catherine. Thank you so much for doing this. 684 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: I've really been looking forward to chatting with you about this. 685 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,400 Speaker 1: Were really didn't get to talk about the millennials and 686 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 1: as much as I wanted, and I have some questions 687 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 1: I have to follow up with you on that because 688 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 1: I have a lot of millennials in my office and 689 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:16,800 Speaker 1: I find the general I don't want to say complaint, 690 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: but the general descriptions of that generation to be somewhat 691 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: a little off base, a little off kilter. You could 692 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: take any extreme example and use it to paint a group. 693 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: So so first question that I find shocking something that's 694 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 1: in one of your PDFs is of candidates who have 695 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 1: a less than in thrilling experience in an interview, what 696 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 1: what do they end up doing with with the experience? 697 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 1: So many of them will sever their business relationship with 698 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: the organization where they have that bad yet experience. And 699 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 1: it's fascinating because when you start to really follow the numbers, 700 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: you can actually put a pretty substantial business impact to 701 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,279 Speaker 1: not treating candidates well. And it makes sense right as 702 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,719 Speaker 1: the expectations that individuals have as consumers. Let's think about, 703 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,799 Speaker 1: you know, the way that people expect customer service to work, 704 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: or the types of interactions people expect to have with 705 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,920 Speaker 1: just brands in their day to day lives. When you 706 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: contrast those to how most people are treated as candidates, 707 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,839 Speaker 1: which frankly is very poorly, you can see that they're 708 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 1: starting to be this disconnect and candidates, especially UM individuals 709 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,359 Speaker 1: that are you know, have skill sets that are more 710 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 1: valuable in the market, are starting to stand up and 711 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 1: say no, I won't take it. When we did a 712 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: survey of users on the muse um, the number one 713 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,759 Speaker 1: thing that they hate about the current job search and 714 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: career process today is what they call the black hole. 715 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 1: It's when you apply to a company that you never 716 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 1: hear anything. And UM similarly, you know, there's there's many 717 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 1: cases in which people go through the experience of interviewing 718 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: for a company and they're treated more like a resume 719 00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 1: or a number than an individual human. We've actually started 720 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,359 Speaker 1: to work with a number of our customers and our 721 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: partners on Canada experience. You've spent so much time and 722 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,879 Speaker 1: money getting these people to apply, why would you want 723 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 1: them to leave the process with a bad impression of 724 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,719 Speaker 1: your company? So so that raises two questions I have 725 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 1: to ask. The first is about the black hole. Is 726 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 1: it better to just politely say thank you, will file 727 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: this away, or thanks but no thanks, or to actually 728 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:30,800 Speaker 1: turn around and do nothing. Our candidates uniformly would prefer 729 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 1: just to know they want to hear I'm sorry we 730 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 1: won't be moving forward with you at this time, but 731 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,719 Speaker 1: thank you for applying. And you know, the best companies 732 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 1: leave the door open for the future. Just because it 733 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:44,840 Speaker 1: wasn't the right fit today doesn't mean there might not 734 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,800 Speaker 1: be a great opportunity. I actually think that that is 735 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 1: a great approach that remows that removes some of the 736 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,879 Speaker 1: hubrists from companies saying you know, no, sorry, you're you're 737 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 1: not right, because the truth is a lot of great talent, 738 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 1: even if they're not right for you today, they may 739 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 1: go off and work at one of your competitors somewhere 740 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: else in your industry, and you know, six months, three years, 741 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 1: ten years down the line, that could be the person 742 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 1: that you're dying to hire. And if you if you 743 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 1: haven't at least treated them with a basic sort of 744 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 1: minimum of professional respect, you're much less likely to be 745 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:17,720 Speaker 1: able to do that. So so that raises the second 746 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,320 Speaker 1: half of the question, which is how much of this 747 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,279 Speaker 1: sort of hand fisted I don't want to use the 748 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:29,759 Speaker 1: word rude, but just unpleasant experience as a candidate, is 749 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: the legacy of that power shift? Where it used to 750 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 1: be the company had all the power. They were the 751 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 1: ones who are writing the paycheck, and now suddenly that 752 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,759 Speaker 1: there is a short especially in tech in areas where 753 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,359 Speaker 1: there's a real shortage of talent. How much of it 754 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 1: is just these companies haven't quite recognized, Hey, the power 755 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 1: um ratio has shifted and it's now with the potential employee, 756 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,560 Speaker 1: not the employer. Oh look, some of it is a 757 00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 1: legacy of the technology. Early application tracking systems did not 758 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,279 Speaker 1: make it easy to respond to people, to treat them, 759 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:05,880 Speaker 1: you know, well, it was it was very much a 760 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 1: processing system. Frankly, and I think that you had and 761 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:10,839 Speaker 1: and I'm going to keep the shorks. I don't want 762 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 1: to recount the entire history of the online recruitment industry, 763 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 1: but you had this phase where all of a sudden, 764 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,920 Speaker 1: it became so much easier for individuals to apply to 765 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 1: jobs that companies were swamped by applications. I mean, think 766 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 1: about just clicked to apply versus having to mail in 767 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 1: a cover letter and resume. And when this initially happened, 768 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 1: when companies were initially swamped, they responded by just processing 769 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,840 Speaker 1: the applications as quickly and efficiently as possible, and it 770 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,960 Speaker 1: became more of a you know, how many applications, how 771 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:40,799 Speaker 1: quickly do we move people through? How quickly do we 772 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 1: get a button the seat? And it was less about 773 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,719 Speaker 1: um cultivating the people that you're turning down today but 774 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:48,840 Speaker 1: that could be right in the future. It was also, 775 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,799 Speaker 1: to some extent, less about fit, because there was more 776 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,279 Speaker 1: of a sense that as a company, you just got 777 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 1: a bunch of applications and you picked the best one 778 00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,399 Speaker 1: and you moved on. Now companies are starting to wake 779 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:00,959 Speaker 1: up and say, what if the talent in the world 780 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,359 Speaker 1: isn't even applying to my jobs because they're not even 781 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: thinking about me as a place to work, and that 782 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 1: changes the game again, both with the candidates you you receive, 783 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 1: but also understanding the way that people talk to each 784 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:14,960 Speaker 1: other on social media. You don't want someone to have 785 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,800 Speaker 1: a bad experience and perhaps they tell their friend or 786 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,560 Speaker 1: their colleague, you know, oh that place treated me terribly. 787 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,239 Speaker 1: Never work there. What if that person is someone that 788 00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,920 Speaker 1: you're trying to recruit. And so I think that companies 789 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,359 Speaker 1: are starting to both obviously be more aware, but there's 790 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,120 Speaker 1: also been a lot of data, hard data coming out 791 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,280 Speaker 1: recently about the business impact in terms of lost dollars, 792 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 1: negative employer brand ramifications of having a Canada experience process 793 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,759 Speaker 1: that does not value candidates as people. I never would 794 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: have imagined that, but now that you mentioned and it 795 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,520 Speaker 1: makes perfect sense. Let's get to some of our favorite 796 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,920 Speaker 1: standard questions we ask all our guests. What is the 797 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 1: most important thing people don't know about your background? All? 798 00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: The most important thing, Uh, that's a tough question to answer. Um. 799 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,600 Speaker 1: The sort of most fun and random thing is that 800 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,120 Speaker 1: I love to travel, and I've been to sixty one 801 00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:13,440 Speaker 1: countries since two thousand four sixte in thirteen years, including 802 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:18,080 Speaker 1: the border between Turkey and Iran, the border between Rwanda 803 00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:21,719 Speaker 1: and the DRC. I love I love travel, and I 804 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 1: love exploring. I think the the other thing is um. 805 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 1: You know, I really do believe that the the entire 806 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:36,359 Speaker 1: industry around how people find their next job, how they 807 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,759 Speaker 1: choose what to do in their career, and how companies 808 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:41,880 Speaker 1: are able to source great people. I think we're going 809 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,920 Speaker 1: to see something in five years that looks radically different 810 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:47,719 Speaker 1: from how it looks today, and then especially from how 811 00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,560 Speaker 1: it looked a couple of years ago. And and I 812 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,239 Speaker 1: am so unbelievably excited to be part of that. Tell 813 00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:56,960 Speaker 1: us about some of your early mentors who affected how 814 00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 1: you think of the world and and who affected your career. Yeah, 815 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:04,560 Speaker 1: I was very lucky when I first started the muse 816 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:09,759 Speaker 1: to have a few other founders, entrepreneurs um, you know, 817 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:13,359 Speaker 1: individuals and technology that that took me under their wing 818 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 1: and explained some of the dudes and don't so um. 819 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:20,759 Speaker 1: There was an incredible woman named Rachel Squar who was 820 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,319 Speaker 1: very active in media. She actually helped me get on 821 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 1: television the first time that I ever did a TV segment. UM. 822 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:33,040 Speaker 1: There was a business mentor from McKinsey, Joanna Barsh, who 823 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,080 Speaker 1: was incredibly influential UM. Also actually my one of my 824 00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:40,040 Speaker 1: managers UH at McKinsey was a guy named Dan, who 825 00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:43,000 Speaker 1: I think was probably responsible more than anyone else for 826 00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:45,600 Speaker 1: me not seeming like a total and complete idiot when 827 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:47,960 Speaker 1: I was twenty three year old walking into these client 828 00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,239 Speaker 1: meetings as a consultant. And I've taken a lot of 829 00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:54,640 Speaker 1: those lessons with me ever since about UM just you know, 830 00:44:54,760 --> 00:45:00,799 Speaker 1: basic UM presence and interaction with h with executives. It's 831 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,120 Speaker 1: actually been very helpful as the news has started to 832 00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,959 Speaker 1: sell into enterprise clients, and then I think as as 833 00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:08,640 Speaker 1: as my company has grown. You know, we were part 834 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,359 Speaker 1: of why Combinator. Several of the partners there really helped 835 00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,759 Speaker 1: us avoid some of the early pitfalls because there's so 836 00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:16,920 Speaker 1: much you don't know as an entrepreneur. And if you 837 00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,640 Speaker 1: can find those other people to um, you know, to 838 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:22,200 Speaker 1: tell you well, you may not want to do that, 839 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,319 Speaker 1: because I did it, and here's what happened. That that 840 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,200 Speaker 1: can save you more more heartache than I can possibly express. 841 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:34,200 Speaker 1: Tell us about some um either venture capitalists or technologists 842 00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:39,280 Speaker 1: who affected the way you built your business. Oh my goodness, UM, 843 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,839 Speaker 1: I would say, you know here UM here in New 844 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:47,400 Speaker 1: York City, I've certainly learned a lot from watching the 845 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,080 Speaker 1: way that Rent the Runway has been built. Jen Hymen 846 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:53,399 Speaker 1: has done a really incredible job building a company that 847 00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:58,200 Speaker 1: again that created a fairly new category in the space, 848 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,759 Speaker 1: and also really proud to be an entrepreneur from New 849 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,520 Speaker 1: York City. So seeing um, you know, seeing her build 850 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,359 Speaker 1: that company has been incredible. UM. There's a woman named 851 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:12,520 Speaker 1: Nila for Merchant who is a former senior executive an 852 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:14,959 Speaker 1: investor UM. She actually recently came up with a book 853 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,720 Speaker 1: called Onliness about the concept of of denting the world, 854 00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,040 Speaker 1: bringing what only you can and she has been incredibly 855 00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:24,920 Speaker 1: influential because I think that early on for me, there 856 00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,040 Speaker 1: were times when people looked at the way I was 857 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,880 Speaker 1: approaching my business, the way that I, for example, wanted 858 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,480 Speaker 1: to uh structure the company, or or treat our employees, 859 00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,240 Speaker 1: or just I know, there were so many little things, 860 00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,640 Speaker 1: especially in the early days of the muse, where we 861 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:42,920 Speaker 1: were going kind of against the grain of conventional tech wisdom, 862 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:46,680 Speaker 1: and UM, there were a number of people who who 863 00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:51,200 Speaker 1: were very powerful in in helping me realize that being 864 00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:55,880 Speaker 1: different didn't necessarily mean we were wrong. So you mentioned Onliness, 865 00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,680 Speaker 1: what other books have you enjoyed. What are you reading currently? 866 00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,120 Speaker 1: My goodness? Well, I loved The Hard Thing About Hard Things, 867 00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:07,360 Speaker 1: which is ben horror. What's this book about entrepreneurship? I 868 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:11,000 Speaker 1: think he coined the phrase eating glass and staring into 869 00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:14,560 Speaker 1: the abyss, which is certainly the most accurate description of 870 00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:18,960 Speaker 1: some of the low points of entrepreneurship. Um. Uh. Eric Reese, 871 00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,360 Speaker 1: who was an early News Seed investor and another person 872 00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:24,319 Speaker 1: that I got some incredible guidance from early on. His 873 00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:26,960 Speaker 1: book The Lean Startup is a classic of how do 874 00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:30,280 Speaker 1: you break you know, these big complicated ideas and plans 875 00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,800 Speaker 1: down to the most basic m v P minimum viable 876 00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,000 Speaker 1: product and experiment test them in the world. Uh. Nila 877 00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:40,080 Speaker 1: Fir's book, Sorry, The Power of Onliness is the full title. Um, 878 00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,920 Speaker 1: that's actually just came out. But her, I think ideas, 879 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,640 Speaker 1: UM and perspective have been very impactful on me for 880 00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:49,040 Speaker 1: a long time. And then uh, in terms of what 881 00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,600 Speaker 1: I'm reading now, I'm about halfway through when breath becomes 882 00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:57,520 Speaker 1: their Uh. Paul Kellnathy, it's a fascinating book. Uh. He 883 00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:03,160 Speaker 1: was a neuros neurosur gen neuroscientists and UM and eventually 884 00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:05,400 Speaker 1: was diagnosed with cancer and it's his his story and 885 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,520 Speaker 1: sort of meditation on life. And uh to say very 886 00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:12,440 Speaker 1: it's it's very, very impactful. So you joined the technology 887 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:16,399 Speaker 1: slash web industry six years ago? Is that about right? 888 00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:20,480 Speaker 1: From from mackenzie as a consultant. What has changed over 889 00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,879 Speaker 1: the ensuing six years? And is this a good thing 890 00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,360 Speaker 1: or a bad then? You know, I love being part 891 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:29,359 Speaker 1: of the technology industry and I think it's a really 892 00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,040 Speaker 1: great time to be a founder right now. Um, in 893 00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:35,799 Speaker 1: terms of what has changed, you know, the the the 894 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,520 Speaker 1: sense of what's trendy has changed. I know when I 895 00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,920 Speaker 1: was first raising capital for the News, everybody that I 896 00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:44,799 Speaker 1: talked to was really into daily deal sites. That was 897 00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:47,760 Speaker 1: when groupon was really big, and you know, investors probably 898 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:52,759 Speaker 1: funded twenty five smaller niche opportunities. And you know, now 899 00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:56,560 Speaker 1: it's obviously AI bots. There's a lot of new trends. 900 00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:58,480 Speaker 1: Some of them are going to be massively big. I 901 00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:00,839 Speaker 1: don't I don't mean to discount that, but I think 902 00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:03,960 Speaker 1: that the you know, the industry, one thing that has 903 00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:06,760 Speaker 1: not changed is this sort of sense of everyone trying 904 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,920 Speaker 1: to figure out what's the one or two next big things. Um. 905 00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:12,240 Speaker 1: But that said, I think it's a it's a time 906 00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,759 Speaker 1: where as much as there's a lot uh that's very 907 00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:19,239 Speaker 1: challenging about the world, the political system that we live in, 908 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,080 Speaker 1: and there's a huge amount of optimism in terms of 909 00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:26,120 Speaker 1: what can be accomplished with technology and and you know, 910 00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,000 Speaker 1: when you look at just the career industry, for example, 911 00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:31,840 Speaker 1: there are I could name a half dozen companies that 912 00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:35,920 Speaker 1: are innovating on different parts of the process, different needs 913 00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,880 Speaker 1: that individual candidates or that companies have um and I 914 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,399 Speaker 1: think it's a it's a great time. You know, there's 915 00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:43,520 Speaker 1: a so one of my favorite books I didn't mention 916 00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:47,160 Speaker 1: earlier is Arcadia to Play by Tom Stoppard, and one 917 00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:49,000 Speaker 1: of the characters has this beautiful quote and he says, 918 00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:51,800 Speaker 1: it's the best possible time to be alive when almost 919 00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,480 Speaker 1: everything you thought you knew is wrong. That's that's an 920 00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:58,480 Speaker 1: interesting quote. Tell us about a time you failed and 921 00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:03,000 Speaker 1: what you learned from the experience, My goodness, UM, I 922 00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:08,080 Speaker 1: am definitely. I've had some some epic failures as well 923 00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:10,680 Speaker 1: as obviously some things that have been very successful, and 924 00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:12,520 Speaker 1: I think you probably learned more from the stuff that 925 00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,040 Speaker 1: goes wrong. The one that that I'll give you the 926 00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:20,640 Speaker 1: quick story is I mentioned earlier In between UM leaving Mackenzie, 927 00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:25,360 Speaker 1: I had moved and then moved back from Rwanda. UM 928 00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:30,040 Speaker 1: I started a blog, a community essentially a project that 929 00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,520 Speaker 1: became a company with several other women that was sort 930 00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:36,800 Speaker 1: of the predecessor to The Muse and ended really badly. 931 00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,600 Speaker 1: The four of us disagreed on the right direction to 932 00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:42,560 Speaker 1: take the company. We had very different senses of whether 933 00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,160 Speaker 1: it should be, you know, in every man brand or 934 00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:47,520 Speaker 1: a high end brand, how we wanted to set it 935 00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,600 Speaker 1: up and UM, and we ended up in just this 936 00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:54,680 Speaker 1: very painful situation that UM for a while, I I 937 00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:56,960 Speaker 1: ended up feeling like, you know, all of the work 938 00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,920 Speaker 1: had been for nothing, and I felt like a total failure. 939 00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,680 Speaker 1: We uh, you know, we we kind of split two 940 00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:06,960 Speaker 1: and two and the other two took the site that 941 00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:08,919 Speaker 1: we've been building and renamed it and sort of moved 942 00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,920 Speaker 1: on and Alex sand ended up starting over. And what 943 00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:15,040 Speaker 1: we started over with was the Muse. And it's so 944 00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,680 Speaker 1: funny because looking back, I don't know that we could 945 00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:21,239 Speaker 1: have done what we've done with The Muse with the 946 00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:23,560 Speaker 1: company without that experience. But at the time, I mean 947 00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,719 Speaker 1: I was you know, in a fetal position for uh, 948 00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:29,680 Speaker 1: for a couple of days just thinking to myself, has 949 00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:32,200 Speaker 1: this all been a waste? And of course even if 950 00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:34,960 Speaker 1: the work um feels like it's been a waste, like 951 00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:37,160 Speaker 1: what you've learned from it, you you carry with you 952 00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:40,600 Speaker 1: the path to get from here to there require Sometimes 953 00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:43,799 Speaker 1: so what feels like wasted effort and what feels like 954 00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:47,120 Speaker 1: well that was not. But very often it isn't tell 955 00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:49,600 Speaker 1: us what you do to keep either mentally or physically 956 00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:54,040 Speaker 1: fit or for relaxment or enjoyment outside of the office. Yeah. 957 00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:59,080 Speaker 1: Um so in terms of keeping mentally fit. I love 958 00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:03,200 Speaker 1: language is um. I speak French. I always like last 959 00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:06,480 Speaker 1: night I was, um, you know, sitting outside reading a 960 00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:10,000 Speaker 1: book and overheard a couple of French teenagers talking in 961 00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:13,000 Speaker 1: a very heavy slang, which was really fun to to 962 00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,240 Speaker 1: sort of remember. Um. I used to live in uh 963 00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:18,920 Speaker 1: in Strasbourg and eastern France, so it's kind of a 964 00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:22,680 Speaker 1: fun trip down memory lane. But I love um kind 965 00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:27,240 Speaker 1: of getting and staying plugged in to other languages, other countries, 966 00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:30,080 Speaker 1: other cultures. Um. My other big kind of hobby right 967 00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:33,759 Speaker 1: now is cooking, and it's totally ridiculous. I actually got um. 968 00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:35,600 Speaker 1: I got a vite a mix a couple of weeks ago, 969 00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:39,319 Speaker 1: and now I'm just like blending and cooking and making 970 00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:41,239 Speaker 1: all sorts of things. So those are probably my big 971 00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:43,560 Speaker 1: two outside of work. I have to share a language 972 00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:46,000 Speaker 1: story with you. I just got back from Paris, ten 973 00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:50,560 Speaker 1: days in Paris from my anniversary and having taken French 974 00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:55,600 Speaker 1: in high school and arriving at Paris in Paris and realizing, wow, 975 00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:57,279 Speaker 1: three years of French in high school and they did 976 00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:02,399 Speaker 1: a terrible job teaching you to speak. Ice downloaded an 977 00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:06,520 Speaker 1: app called Duo Lingo, and it's just a really simple 978 00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,320 Speaker 1: set of um you could use on your phone, you 979 00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:13,040 Speaker 1: could use on the computer tablet, and it's I feel like, 980 00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:16,760 Speaker 1: in a week of playing with Duo Lingo, I've learned 981 00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:19,120 Speaker 1: more language than I did in years of high school. 982 00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:24,600 Speaker 1: It's amazing how we've taught people other languages so inappropriately 983 00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:27,480 Speaker 1: over the years. When I when I showed up from 984 00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:30,919 Speaker 1: my first day of my junior year of college at 985 00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:34,880 Speaker 1: the the big political science university there, I mean I 986 00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,480 Speaker 1: didn't I could literally could not understand anything, and I 987 00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:40,800 Speaker 1: was probably six years into French language at that point. 988 00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:43,239 Speaker 1: But then, of course, you know, three or four weeks 989 00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:45,160 Speaker 1: sort of being I burst in it. I was like, Oh, 990 00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:48,840 Speaker 1: finally I can understand my professor. That was that was 991 00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:51,560 Speaker 1: It was a good moment, all right. And our two 992 00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:54,799 Speaker 1: favorite questions that we ask all of our guests, and 993 00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,360 Speaker 1: this question is actually really funny to ask you of 994 00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,759 Speaker 1: all people. The the ninth question and we ask all 995 00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:04,399 Speaker 1: of our guests is always what advice would you give 996 00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:08,719 Speaker 1: to a millennial or someone just beginning their career? And 997 00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:13,040 Speaker 1: it's funny because essentially that's what what the muse does 998 00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,200 Speaker 1: every day. But what sort of advice if if someone 999 00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:18,680 Speaker 1: came out to you and said, Catherine, I'm thinking of 1000 00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:23,239 Speaker 1: going into technology, hr, whatever, what sort of advice would 1001 00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:26,680 Speaker 1: you give them? Yeah, I'd say that anything worth doing 1002 00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:32,040 Speaker 1: requires grit and persistence. I think that sometimes that can 1003 00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:37,000 Speaker 1: get lost in our culture's focus on overnight success things 1004 00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:40,120 Speaker 1: that just seem to kind of work magically. Um, but 1005 00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:44,080 Speaker 1: literally every person I have talked to be at an entrepreneur, 1006 00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:47,759 Speaker 1: a successful business leader, executive, whatever it is. Maybe they 1007 00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:51,160 Speaker 1: just um, you know, run a small organization or company 1008 00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:53,919 Speaker 1: or nonprofit or or or thing in a small corner 1009 00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:57,040 Speaker 1: of the world. And they're not you know, necessarily famous 1010 00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:59,360 Speaker 1: or someone you've heard of, but people that are deeply 1011 00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:03,520 Speaker 1: content or satisfied with their career have usually had to 1012 00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:05,719 Speaker 1: put up with some heart knocks to get there. And 1013 00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:10,360 Speaker 1: I think grit is a is a fairly under appreciated attribute, 1014 00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:13,840 Speaker 1: but certainly, um, I believe it's one of the most critical. 1015 00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:16,560 Speaker 1: There's a new book out grit. I don't know if 1016 00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:20,200 Speaker 1: you're familiar with it. Someone put out a book grit 1017 00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:21,960 Speaker 1: is in the title. When you get a chance take 1018 00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:24,759 Speaker 1: look at it. And our final question, what is it 1019 00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:30,440 Speaker 1: that you know about technology, venture capital, HR, anything like 1020 00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:34,719 Speaker 1: that today that you wish you knew seven eight years 1021 00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:40,359 Speaker 1: ago when you were first thinking about launching the muse Um. 1022 00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:43,840 Speaker 1: You know, the only constant is change. Um. Just because 1023 00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:47,640 Speaker 1: you have a great idea or a big innovation or 1024 00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:52,120 Speaker 1: something that moves your space or your market forward, UM, 1025 00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:54,800 Speaker 1: that's never enough. That's that's the sort of opening stakes. 1026 00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:58,360 Speaker 1: You have to constantly keep moving, keep innovative, keep changing 1027 00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:01,399 Speaker 1: as a business. And actually that's a very freeing and 1028 00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:07,680 Speaker 1: powerful thought. But it's certainly important, especially in technology today, 1029 00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:10,080 Speaker 1: because the rules of the game now aren't going to 1030 00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:12,080 Speaker 1: necessarily be the rules of the game in three years. 1031 00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:14,920 Speaker 1: And if you can't commit to sort of learning and 1032 00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:18,320 Speaker 1: innovating and constantly updating your own assumptions. It's going to 1033 00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,839 Speaker 1: be harder and harder to keep up. That is fascinating. 1034 00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:25,520 Speaker 1: We have been speaking with Catherine Minshoe. She is the 1035 00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:29,239 Speaker 1: founder and CEO of the Muse dot com. If you 1036 00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:32,080 Speaker 1: enjoy this conversation, you can look up an intro Down 1037 00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:34,920 Speaker 1: an Inch on Apple iTunes and you can see any 1038 00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:38,720 Speaker 1: of the other hundred and fifty something or so previous 1039 00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:42,880 Speaker 1: shows we've had. Be sure and write to us. We 1040 00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:47,080 Speaker 1: love your comments, feedback and suggestions. Send us an email 1041 00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:51,000 Speaker 1: at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net. I would 1042 00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:53,960 Speaker 1: be remiss if I did not thank my crack staff 1043 00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:58,360 Speaker 1: who helps put these podcasts together. Medina Parwana is my 1044 00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:03,160 Speaker 1: audio engineer and producer part Excellence. Taylor Riggs is in 1045 00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:06,600 Speaker 1: charge of booking and also one of our producers. Michael 1046 00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:10,160 Speaker 1: Batnick is the head of research who helps delve deep 1047 00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:13,400 Speaker 1: into the background of our guests, coming up with better 1048 00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:16,960 Speaker 1: questions than I usually do. I'm Barry Ridholts. You've been 1049 00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:20,040 Speaker 1: listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.