WEBVTT - #001 Jason Flom and Barry Scheck with Barry Gibbs 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:05.800 You know, every episode of this show has been a 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:09.640 roller coaster ride and a powerful emotional experience for me, 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:14.240 none more so in the episode I recorded with Barry Gibbs, 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:20.720 a beautiful, wonderful, warm, teddy bear of a man who 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:25.000 was wrongfully convicted in one of the most egregious cases 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:28.040 that any of us have ever seen, and exonerated in 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:31.400 one of the most amazing twists of fate. You have 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:34.360 to listen to his episode to hear the whole thing. 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:37.559 I can't even paraphrase it, but the sad news is 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:42.680 Barry died after battling an illness on March twenty third, 0:00:42.800 --> 0:00:48.560 twenty eighteen. Barry, rest in peace, my friend. You're gone 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:57.600 but not forgotten. Now please listen to the incredible Barry Gibbs. 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:05.600 I came from a beautiful neighborhood. I had a beautiful life. 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:09.240 I went to sleep because September seventh was the first 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:11.520 day of my high school year. I was gonna be 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:14.319 a senior at twenty two, I was set to start college. 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:17.919 I woke up and my life was never the same again. 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:22.000 Cops came out with guns drawn, and I never saw 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:25.440 freedom ever since after that. It's like roach Mo, Tom 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:27.800 once you get in, you and I can't mounted. 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:31.960 In nineteen eighty six, a woman was strangled and her 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:34.240 body was dumb from a car on the belt Parkway 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:37.240 in Brooklyn, New York City. In order to protect the 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:40.080 known mafia associate who was the real suspect in the case, 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:44.280 the detective Louis Eppolito Cohre's two eyewitnesses into changing their 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:46.840 story and placing Barry Gibbs at the scene of the crime. 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:51.400 Based on this false eyewitness testimony, Barry Gibbs was convicted 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:54.560 and served almost two decades in prison before he was exonerated. 0:01:55.680 --> 0:02:01.800 Guys, alright, I made a seventery plot wife in Sherwan's poste. 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:08.080 The corrupt cop who was responsible for coercing these eyewitnesses 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:11.400 was ultimately convicted of eight murders that he carried out 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:14.440 for the mafia. He's currently serving life in prison. 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:20.120 To say corrupt is the understatement of all time. Lewis 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:24.360 Eppolito was working at this point in time for a 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:26.560 crime family in New York City. 0:02:27.520 --> 0:02:42.080 This is wrongful conviction. With Jason Flomm, we have a 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:45.440 very special guest today, Actually we have three very special 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:49.560 guests today. The number one is Barry Gibbs. Barry's an 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:52.280 exignery who served almost two decades in prison for a 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:56.959 murder he didn't commit, and his story will rock your world, 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:00.320 to say the least. And in addition to Havingry on 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:03.040 the show, we have another Barry. We have Barry times 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:06.200 two today. Barry Sheck, the co founder of the Innocence 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:09.240 Project and a personal hero of mine, is here. And 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:14.240 we also have Vanessa Popkins. Vanessa is the newly promoted 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:18.400 and anointed director of post conviction Litigation for the Innocence 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:22.440 Project and she's been a long time lawyer with the 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:25.240 innocentce Project, long serving lawyer with the Ennoconce Project. We're 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:26.800 thrilled to have both of you, all three of you 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:30.880 here on the show today, So welcome. So Barry Gibbs, 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:34.440 Let's start at the beginning, which is where did you 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:36.760 Where were you born? Let's start with that. Let's go 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:37.440 all the way back. 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:41.360 We can go all the ways back. I was born 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:48.440 in Brooklyn. I was raised in cheaps at Bay. I 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:53.600 worked in a post office. I came from a beautiful neighborhood, 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:59.720 had a beautiful life, beautiful wife, had a house, had 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:03.600 a family, had a car. Every two years had a 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:04.559 good job. 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:07.440 American dream pretty much right, I mean, until it wasn't. 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:10.560 So you served honorably served your country in a war 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:12.720 that we won't get into the politics of that war, 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:15.480 but the fact there is a crazy situation for any 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:19.720 young man to find himself in. Now you come back and. 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:22.880 I wind up, I wind up, I'm young, I get married, 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:26.960 I find a beautiful woman. All along sitting in an 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:30.919 office I was. I was show intimidated by a beauty 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:33.680 that it took me a year and a half to 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:35.880 get up the courage to just ask her out for 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:36.800 a couple of coffee. 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:38.840 This sounds very romantic, by the way. I just wants 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:41.440 to know truth. I know, but I'm feeling a little misty. 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:43.000 It's like in the movies when you get that you know, 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:45.279 foggy thing and you go back in time. So you 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:48.320 finally got the courage up, you asked her coffee. 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:50.800 I used to deliver mail toward she'd sit in that 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:53.920 office on a dictive pharmer. I never saw a woman 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:57.120 type as quickly as she did, and I was amazed. 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:00.360 So you charmed her and you eventually married her. Right, 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:02.560 because otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it right now. 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:05.680 Yeah, she was. She was a gift from God, she 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:06.320 really was. 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:08.719 And you married the girl of your dreams. So that's again, 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:12.559 it sounds like an American American dream story up until 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:14.359 it's not. And I want to get into that because 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:17.640 we have we have Barry and Vanessa here, which is 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:20.400 really a treat for the show, and I want to 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:24.599 talk about your your your Kafka esque journey through the 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:29.240 criminal justice system, because yours, is saying to Barry before, 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:33.000 it's like the triple crown of malfeasance. Right, you had 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:39.000 jail house snitches, you have police miss and prosecutorial misconduct, 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:41.360 and then you have a situation where they either can't 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:43.919 find or won't or won't turn over the evidence that 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:47.840 could have exonerated you long before your two decades in prison, 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:51.360 and it was it was a life sentence, was that right? Yes, 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:56.880 So so let's let's turn it over to uh to 0:05:56.920 --> 0:05:59.000 the lawyers for a second. Here, When did you first 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:01.160 become aware? And can you give us a little background 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:03.080 on how this happened in the first place, because this 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:04.040 should never happen. 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:07.560 So basically, in the mid nineteen eighties, a woman from 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:11.080 Brooklyn was murdered She was an African American woman. She 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:13.960 was strangled and her body was disposed of on the 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:17.880 side of a road on the Belt Parkway, and there 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:20.760 were a couple of witnesses who actually saw there. It 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:25.960 was a white man who was dumping the body essentially, and. 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:26.200 So there are two witnesses. 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:29.200 There was two witnesses. One was a park police officer and. 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:32.359 The Belt Parkway is a major thoroughfare in Brooklyn just 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:35.720 for people who around the country who don't know the geographics, 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:36.800 so go ahead, right. 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:39.920 And there was a park police officer who had driven 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:43.839 by and saw the person the perpetrator, getting out of 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:48.640 the car. And there was also a guy, Peter Mitchell, 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.800 a witness who was jogging in the area who also 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:57.320 witnessed kind of the same set of occurrences. And so 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:03.080 the victim had been strangled. She was later discovered to 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:05.040 have hairs on her body. And you know, there was 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:07.159 a lot of evidence later on that we could have 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:09.520 done DNA testing on if we would have found to 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:14.280 show who did this. But Barry, you know, there was 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:19.200 this detective Lewis Epilito who wasn't even on duty at 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:22.120 the time, you know, wasn't wasn't on shift, but ended 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:25.240 up showing up at the crime scene and basically took 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:26.880 charge of the investigation. 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:29.040 And why did he do that? I mean, that seems 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:30.239 very irregular, right. 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:34.880 Something's wrong with him, Something's wrong with the whole way 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:37.880 this case goes down. He sweeps in to take over 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:41.320 this case, right, and all of a sudden it's his case. 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:45.040 And he goes and finds Peter Mitchell and he. 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:46.720 Creates this Peter Witchell's the jogger. 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:47.320 The jogger. 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:53.000 All of a sudden, this guy is identifying Barry. He 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:54.240 takes care of the whole thing. 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:56.680 And why did Barry even come? I mean, he wasn't 0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:58.760 anywhere near the crime scene? How did his name even 0:07:58.800 --> 0:07:59.960 come into the picture? Here? 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.680 We we we now know, right, you see, at the 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:07.960 time that we're doing this case, we don't know exactly 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:11.240 why Epilito was doing all these things. And of course 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:13.680 this is a house snitch that emerges in all of this, 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:16.120 so it goes to Trolie gets convicted. We don't have 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:19.320 the DNA evidence, and frankly, as you know well Jason, 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:22.720 you know at this time with the Innocence project, if 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:26.360 we couldn't find the biological evidence to do a DNA test. 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:27.720 We had to close the case. 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:30.520 Right, because that was that was the mission of the charter, 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:33.120 basically the INNOSCE project that we work on DNA cases. Now, 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:35.040 of course this change is afoot, but that's beside the 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:35.480 point way. 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:39.400 So, but we we even though we had pretty much 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:42.640 established that we couldn't find the hares and the clothing 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:45.120 or anything like this, we just couldn't close the. 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:49.280 Case, which is odd, right because by definition it's the 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:51.160 type of one way you go well of it that should. 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:55.120 Have been closed. So what happened was what Barry is 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:58.120 getting emotional about is that we were essentially saying to him, 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:01.080 we're going to have to drop this case, right, but 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:01.600 we couldn't. 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:03.960 What you did, I'm going to tell you what you did. 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:08.679 You broke my heart. You really did. You guys broke 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:12.920 my heart. I made a cemetery plot a life of 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:17.240 Shurman's policy. 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:21.120 And then all of a sudden we wake up and 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:23.760 in the front page of all the newspapers in New 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:24.640 York City, what. 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:26.280 Year, what year? 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:27.800 What year was two thousand and four. 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:30.280 So this has been going on now for this has 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:33.760 probably been about for eleven years now, twelve years, yeah, 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:35.440 two thousand and four, you opened the newspaper. 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:39.080 Opened the newspaper, and there's a story that a former 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:43.480 New York City Police detective, Lewis Epalito, who was famous 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:46.480 in his time because he wrote a book called Mafia Cop, 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:51.040 where he described how his parents had been The father 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:53.760 had been involved in the organized crime, but he hadn't been, 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:57.000 and he was a great hero cop, uh, you know, 0:09:57.080 --> 0:10:00.480 and got a lot of publicity. He was the cop 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:03.640 that arrested Barry and took over suddenly swoops in and 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:06.400 takes over this case. So Vanessa and I look at 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:11.560 this and we go, oh my god, it's we got 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:16.120 to call them up and say whatever. They had arrested Epallito. 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:16.959 Right, That's why the story was. 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:18.360 They had arrested. 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:22.559 Epallito and Kara Kappa, another detective with whom he worked, 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:26.880 because it was alleged that he had become involved with 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:28.719 the mafia. 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:31.080 I remember reading the story and he. 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:34.400 The two of them had begun doing hits for a 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:37.920 crime family, right, and they literally were killing people one 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:38.640 after another. 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:40.199 You know, this sounds like it's straight out of a 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:40.960 Hollywood movie. 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:41.120 Right. 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:44.000 It's we have we have guys in blue wearing badges, 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:46.240 doing hits for the mafia in New York City in 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:46.720 two thousand. 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:49.600 It's all true, and it's crazier than that, Jason, because 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:53.880 Lewis Epolito, the so called mafia cop, was in the 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:58.679 first scene right of Goodfellas, very first scene of Goodfellas. 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:02.600 Like art imitating life imitating art. Years before he was 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:05.480 exposed as being a hitman for the mafia and disgraced 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:08.560 Louis Eppalito appeared on Sally Jesse Rappa out. 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:13.240 What do you do now, Big lou Well. 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:16.640 I've acted in nine movies. I've been in Goodfellas, State 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:20.360 of Grace, Predator, to I tried writing a screenplay. Gene 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:23.439 Hackman has been really great with me and Mikhail Vershnikov 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:25.920 and I did a movie with them called Company Business, 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:28.240 and I wrote a screenplay and it was brought by 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:31.280 New Line Cinema and I just finished the second screenplay. 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:33.400 It's better than policing. 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:34.400 Pe getting shot out any day. 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:39.120 Yeah, as far back as I could remember, I always 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:40.200 wanted to be a gangster. 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:49.319 And meanwhile, if that's not ironic enough, he's also writing 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:51.600 a book about how he's not doing what he is 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:54.480 exactly is doing. Right, So it's like the whole thing 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:57.520 is a circle of madness. That's, you know, hard to believe. 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:00.720 So we write into the US his office and we 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:03.200 called them and they say, would you please look into 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:06.720 the Barry Gibbs case because something's wrong with this case. 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:10.600 We've always thought that Barry was innocent, that he was framed, 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:16.600 and unbeknownst to us, and they say, yes, we're going 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:17.000 to do that. 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:17.800 Get ready for this. 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:21.160 By the way, unbeknownst to us, the day that they 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:26.600 arrested Epolito in his apartment in Las Vegas, right, they 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:33.000 found the original New York City Police Department file on 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:37.079 the on the Barry Gibbs case. I mean, the original one. 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:39.280 One of the reasons that we couldn't find a lot 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:42.640 of things is that it's unprecedented. You know, he's a 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:45.440 copy retires, he goes to the police department and he 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:47.200 takes the original file. 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:49.840 Well maybe he too. I mean, is it your theory 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:51.920 that he took the file so that it would never 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:54.840 get discovered, and then ironically again, he put it in 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:56.320 a place where it could get discovered. 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:02.120 A second wording to that, I was sitting in the 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:07.200 car with the DA agents. I don't remember their names. 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:10.520 I'm not giving you guys up. And I said to them, 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:13.400 how many files did you find in the house? And 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:17.720 he said three? And I says, well, I'm on my 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:19.960 way down. What happened to the two water files? You 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:22.400 know what? He said to me, don't worry about them, 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:26.560 their career criminals. I said to myself, you got that. 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:28.800 I'm not going to say nothing, but I really wanted 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:31.880 to say something. Why don't you do your job properly? Well, 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:32.839 they did what I didn't. 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:35.800 Let's be let's let's be straight about this. So these 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:39.160 DEA agents and the US attorneys in the Eastern District, 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:44.880 they went out and they started reinvestigating Barry's case. And 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:49.440 they went and they talked to Peter Mitchell, right the jogger, 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:52.640 and he's living someplace in Queens and they walk in 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:56.400 the door and he said, I've been waiting, you know, 0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:57.600 twenty years. 0:13:57.720 --> 0:13:59.280 I'm getting the jails right now. 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:01.920 For somebody to say this to me. And he bursts 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:07.240 into tears and he describes how Epillito threatened him. He himself, 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:10.679 Peter Mitchell had been an army veteran, right he had 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:15.600 a felony conviction, and Epilitos was threatening him, you know, 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:19.600 both physically and to expose him and destroy him. And 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.880 he brought him into the precinct and he showed him 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:26.440 who Barry was, and then they held this ridiculous, bogus 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:31.000 lineup and you know, he identified Barry Gibbs. 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:33.960 So, yeah, he was given basically no option. 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:36.560 Yeah, I mean, it was a force. 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:39.320 So what about the other witness Barry? Who was the 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:42.560 park the park police officer he said, a park ranger or. 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:46.240 Something, officer Gentilly. He You know, the crazy thing about 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:48.600 him is that nobody, you know, he would have been 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:51.600 the most reliable witness, right, He's an officer, he's trained 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:56.520 to make identifications. Nobody ever asked him that we know of, 0:14:57.040 --> 0:14:59.440 to look at Barry Gibbs and say, is that the 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:00.680 person you saw? 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:02.200 Because they didn't want to know. 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:03.040 They didn't want to know. 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:05.200 When you go back and you look at this case, 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:08.280 this is one of the Yeah, I mean, this is 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:14.120 what makes Barry Gibbs' case extraordinary in one respect is 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:19.080 that it was a completely corrupt cop. And to say 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:23.840 corrupt is the understatement of all time. Lewis Eppolito was 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:27.840 working at this point in time for a crime family 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:31.000 in New York City. He and Kara Kappa I think 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:35.160 we're involved in the assassination of eleven people. There's a 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:39.880 terrific book written about Lewis Epolito case, and it's called 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:44.760 The Good Rat by Jimmy Breslin, you know, perhaps the greatest, 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:49.400 you know, Pulitzerprise winning columnist that we've ever had in 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:52.800 this town. And he talks about Barry's case. But they 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:56.760 were running around killing people, you know, and the Lucasy 0:15:56.840 --> 0:16:00.560 crime family would say, well, why don't you go kill Guido, 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:02.560 and they killed the wrong Nicki Guido they. 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:05.040 Did right Nick. 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:08.720 They're all contract killings. And so what we have been 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:15.800 able to figure out through litigation after Barry was uh exonerated, 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:19.280 essentially through the work of these DEA agents who went 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:22.200 out and found Peter Mitchell and you know, showed that 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:25.360 the whole case was a frame up. We now know 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:30.240 that the day that the witnesses saw this body of 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:33.400 this poor woman being dumped on the belt Parkway right 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:37.760 that the description matched somebody that worked at a chop 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:40.720 shop in Brooklyn. 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:46.160 Who was known to the cops, who was known to the. 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:49.280 And and Epolito mysteriously shows up the next day the 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:54.520 next day, we found out this guy who was suspected 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:58.120 who to meet the description, right, shows up at the 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:02.120 police precinct with his died because originally they described it 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:04.159 as somebody with salt and pepper hair. He shows up 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:06.640 with his hair dyed black and a lawyer to talk 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:09.960 to Epolito. Nothing appears about that, which appears in no 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:11.040 police reports. 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:13.679 No, there's no reason to take a look at that. 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.560 I wouldn't you know, when you look back at this, 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:18.199 it's unbelievable. 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:34.040 So let's go back to the case. So nine years 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:37.480 after Varie's conviction, a Brooklyn judge ordered the state to 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:40.440 submit evidence from the case for DNA testing, and then 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:43.320 what happens, right, It would seem like at that point, Okay, 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:45.000 now we got a break. Right now, we're going to 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:47.320 get this guy out. Some of the evidence had apparently 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:49.399 been destroyed and other items couldn't be found. 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:53.639 Okay, that's their side of the case. But my side 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:55.600 the case is different from that version. 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:57.080 Right there, Okay, let's hear it. 0:17:57.160 --> 0:18:04.399 Okay, when I was in jail at Riker's Island six 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:08.160 months later or whatever, I can't remember exactly how many 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:12.920 months later, the district attorney wanted me to give hair 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:17.600 samples again. My attorney came up to me and I 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:21.240 said to him, I'm not giving it. And he says why. 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:24.640 He says, because I'm being framed. I'm not giving it. 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:29.960 He says. Listen, Barry, he says, I'm there to represent you. Now, 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:34.720 he said, pay attorney, I'm there to represent you. He says. 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:38.200 I says, you're gonna be there to represent me when 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:42.439 they take these heirs and they're done together, Like, are 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:45.560 you gonna be physically right there? He said to me. No, 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:47.359 he says, I'm gonna be there when they take the 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:51.399 hair samples and the heat seal it and they're gonna 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:54.680 give the evidence to who epilto. 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:58.639 The chain of custody really fell off with Epilito himself 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:01.760 in terms of having handle the evidence, and it was 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:02.679 just am I A. 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:05.000 You know, And the funny thing that Barry Gibbs is 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:08.560 saying is that, you know, he doesn't even want to 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:12.119 give his hairs because he doesn't trust trust Lay And 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:15.120 you know, from the lawyer's point of view, he's going, oh, 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:18.040 I got this Mischugan client, this Tracy client. It doesn't 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:19.280 even want to give up airs. 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:22.040 But one of the greatest frame ups in the history 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:22.760 of New York City. 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:25.119 And what's crazy is that you'd look at him and go, 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:28.640 you're you're convinced that you're going to be framed, and 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:31.320 you won't even give your hairs, and you're saying that 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:35.280 we can't trust the detective to even take them to 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:38.000 the crime lab and give it a straight up examination. 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:43.000 And it turns out everything he suspects is completely true. 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:46.560 It is a complete frame. The guy is working for 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:50.919 the mafia, he is assassinating people. He probably played around 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:53.520 with all of this evidence. We can't prove all of that, 0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:55.080 but we proved the hell of a lot of it. 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:57.800 So for opostal worker, for oppostal worker, Barry turns out 0:19:57.800 --> 0:19:59.960 to be a pretty good scientist, huh, I mean, or 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:03.000 at least a psychologist. Let me ask you this. Also so, 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:05.879 the New York City crime laft has faced criticism for 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:09.520 its difficulty difficulty is a strange word for its difficulty 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:12.560 handling and put that in quotes and storing evidence. In 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:15.560 twenty thirteen, the New York City Medical Examiner's Office announced 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:17.840 that it had discovered more than fifty cases in which 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:20.840 the office failed to upload critical DNA evidence from crime 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:24.080 scenes to the state's DNA database, which prevented those samples 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:28.159 from being compared to genetic material from convicted defenders. This 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:30.920 discovery led to the firing of the office's deputy director 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:33.080 of quality assurance, which sounds kind of like a fall 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:35.960 guy to me. I mean, the deputy director of quality assurance. 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:39.000 That sounds like somebody who works at a snack food 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:41.959 company or something like that. You know, so can we 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:44.560 can you tell me more about that? Because people like 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:47.119 to think that these people are doing their jobs, right. 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:48.840 I think the public likes to think that when you have, 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:53.359 you know, a crime lab that these people are on. 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:56.120 Is now, of course, after making a murderer and after 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:59.199 the different things that have come out recently, I think 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:02.600 that has generated so much attention that people probably have 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:05.560 a little more skeptical view. But even as a lay person, 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:08.360 before getting involved in this project, I thought so too. 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:10.359 I thought that these people do their jobs. These are 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:11.480 honest actors. Right. 0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:16.600 Number one, what Barry and Vanessa were describing about the 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:20.960 search for his evidence, right, It is true that in 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:24.760 the old days, at the time that Barry was convicted, 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:28.840 they had a terrible system for keeping track of the evidence. 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:33.040 It was a mess, and that's not unlike places all 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:36.160 across the country. It was a total mess. And they 0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:41.359 did have fires and asbestos and floods, and they did 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:45.560 recently after Sandy, have a problem. But you know, having 0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:51.240 said that, we did have a problem for years in 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:56.359 trying to get a fair search because the evidence custodians really, 0:21:56.960 --> 0:22:00.400 you know, they were being deliberately indifferent to the need 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:03.159 to go look for evidence, even when people were asking, 0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:06.320 go find my evidence. A DNA test could prove me innocent. 0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:10.879 They really weren't trying hard. But now I do believe 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:15.200