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Speaker 1: You know, every episode of this show has been a

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Speaker 1: roller coaster ride and a powerful emotional experience for me,

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Speaker 1: none more so in the episode I recorded with Barry Gibbs,

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Speaker 1: a beautiful, wonderful, warm, teddy bear of a man who

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Speaker 1: was wrongfully convicted in one of the most egregious cases

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Speaker 1: that any of us have ever seen, and exonerated in

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Speaker 1: one of the most amazing twists of fate. You have

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Speaker 1: to listen to his episode to hear the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: I can't even paraphrase it, but the sad news is

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Speaker 1: Barry died after battling an illness on March twenty third,

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Speaker 1: twenty eighteen. Barry, rest in peace, my friend. You're gone

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Speaker 1: but not forgotten. Now please listen to the incredible Barry Gibbs.

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Speaker 2: I came from a beautiful neighborhood. I had a beautiful life.

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Speaker 2: I went to sleep because September seventh was the first

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Speaker 2: day of my high school year. I was gonna be

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Speaker 2: a senior at twenty two, I was set to start college.

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Speaker 3: I woke up and my life was never the same again.

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Speaker 2: Cops came out with guns drawn, and I never saw

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Speaker 2: freedom ever since after that. It's like roach Mo, Tom

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Speaker 2: once you get in, you and I can't mounted.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty six, a woman was strangled and her

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Speaker 1: body was dumb from a car on the belt Parkway

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Speaker 1: in Brooklyn, New York City. In order to protect the

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Speaker 1: known mafia associate who was the real suspect in the case,

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Speaker 1: the detective Louis Eppolito Cohre's two eyewitnesses into changing their

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Speaker 1: story and placing Barry Gibbs at the scene of the crime.

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Speaker 1: Based on this false eyewitness testimony, Barry Gibbs was convicted

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Speaker 1: and served almost two decades in prison before he was exonerated.

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Speaker 2: Guys, alright, I made a seventery plot wife in Sherwan's poste.

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Speaker 1: The corrupt cop who was responsible for coercing these eyewitnesses

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Speaker 1: was ultimately convicted of eight murders that he carried out

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Speaker 1: for the mafia. He's currently serving life in prison.

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Speaker 3: To say corrupt is the understatement of all time. Lewis

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Speaker 3: Eppolito was working at this point in time for a

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Speaker 3: crime family in New York City.

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Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. With Jason Flomm, we have a

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Speaker 1: very special guest today, Actually we have three very special

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Speaker 1: guests today. The number one is Barry Gibbs. Barry's an

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Speaker 1: exignery who served almost two decades in prison for a

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Speaker 1: murder he didn't commit, and his story will rock your world,

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Speaker 1: to say the least. And in addition to Havingry on

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Speaker 1: the show, we have another Barry. We have Barry times

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Speaker 1: two today. Barry Sheck, the co founder of the Innocence

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Speaker 1: Project and a personal hero of mine, is here. And

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Speaker 1: we also have Vanessa Popkins. Vanessa is the newly promoted

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Speaker 1: and anointed director of post conviction Litigation for the Innocence

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Speaker 1: Project and she's been a long time lawyer with the

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Speaker 1: innocentce Project, long serving lawyer with the Ennoconce Project. We're

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Speaker 1: thrilled to have both of you, all three of you

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Speaker 1: here on the show today, So welcome. So Barry Gibbs,

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Speaker 1: Let's start at the beginning, which is where did you

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Speaker 1: Where were you born? Let's start with that. Let's go

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Speaker 1: all the way back.

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Speaker 2: We can go all the ways back. I was born

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Speaker 2: in Brooklyn. I was raised in cheaps at Bay. I

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Speaker 2: worked in a post office. I came from a beautiful neighborhood,

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Speaker 2: had a beautiful life, beautiful wife, had a house, had

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Speaker 2: a family, had a car. Every two years had a

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Speaker 2: good job.

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Speaker 1: American dream pretty much right, I mean, until it wasn't.

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Speaker 1: So you served honorably served your country in a war

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Speaker 1: that we won't get into the politics of that war,

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Speaker 1: but the fact there is a crazy situation for any

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Speaker 1: young man to find himself in. Now you come back and.

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Speaker 2: I wind up, I wind up, I'm young, I get married,

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Speaker 2: I find a beautiful woman. All along sitting in an

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Speaker 2: office I was. I was show intimidated by a beauty

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Speaker 2: that it took me a year and a half to

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Speaker 2: get up the courage to just ask her out for

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Speaker 2: a couple of coffee.

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Speaker 1: This sounds very romantic, by the way. I just wants

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Speaker 1: to know truth. I know, but I'm feeling a little misty.

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Speaker 1: It's like in the movies when you get that you know,

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Speaker 1: foggy thing and you go back in time. So you

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Speaker 1: finally got the courage up, you asked her coffee.

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Speaker 2: I used to deliver mail toward she'd sit in that

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Speaker 2: office on a dictive pharmer. I never saw a woman

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Speaker 2: type as quickly as she did, and I was amazed.

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Speaker 1: So you charmed her and you eventually married her. Right,

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Speaker 1: because otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she was. She was a gift from God, she

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Speaker 2: really was.

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Speaker 1: And you married the girl of your dreams. So that's again,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like an American American dream story up until

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Speaker 1: it's not. And I want to get into that because

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Speaker 1: we have we have Barry and Vanessa here, which is

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Speaker 1: really a treat for the show, and I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about your your your Kafka esque journey through the

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Speaker 1: criminal justice system, because yours, is saying to Barry before,

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Speaker 1: it's like the triple crown of malfeasance. Right, you had

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Speaker 1: jail house snitches, you have police miss and prosecutorial misconduct,

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Speaker 1: and then you have a situation where they either can't

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Speaker 1: find or won't or won't turn over the evidence that

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Speaker 1: could have exonerated you long before your two decades in prison,

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Speaker 1: and it was it was a life sentence, was that right? Yes,

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Speaker 1: So so let's let's turn it over to uh to

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Speaker 1: the lawyers for a second. Here, When did you first

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Speaker 1: become aware? And can you give us a little background

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Speaker 1: on how this happened in the first place, because this

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Speaker 1: should never happen.

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Speaker 4: So basically, in the mid nineteen eighties, a woman from

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Speaker 4: Brooklyn was murdered She was an African American woman. She

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Speaker 4: was strangled and her body was disposed of on the

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Speaker 4: side of a road on the Belt Parkway, and there

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Speaker 4: were a couple of witnesses who actually saw there. It

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Speaker 4: was a white man who was dumping the body essentially, and.

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Speaker 1: So there are two witnesses.

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Speaker 4: There was two witnesses. One was a park police officer and.

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Speaker 1: The Belt Parkway is a major thoroughfare in Brooklyn just

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Speaker 1: for people who around the country who don't know the geographics,

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Speaker 1: so go ahead, right.

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Speaker 4: And there was a park police officer who had driven

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Speaker 4: by and saw the person the perpetrator, getting out of

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Speaker 4: the car. And there was also a guy, Peter Mitchell,

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Speaker 4: a witness who was jogging in the area who also

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Speaker 4: witnessed kind of the same set of occurrences. And so

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Speaker 4: the victim had been strangled. She was later discovered to

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Speaker 4: have hairs on her body. And you know, there was

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Speaker 4: a lot of evidence later on that we could have

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Speaker 4: done DNA testing on if we would have found to

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Speaker 4: show who did this. But Barry, you know, there was

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Speaker 4: this detective Lewis Epilito who wasn't even on duty at

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Speaker 4: the time, you know, wasn't wasn't on shift, but ended

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Speaker 4: up showing up at the crime scene and basically took

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Speaker 4: charge of the investigation.

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Speaker 1: And why did he do that? I mean, that seems

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Speaker 1: very irregular, right.

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Speaker 3: Something's wrong with him, Something's wrong with the whole way

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Speaker 3: this case goes down. He sweeps in to take over

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Speaker 3: this case, right, and all of a sudden it's his case.

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Speaker 3: And he goes and finds Peter Mitchell and he.

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Speaker 1: Creates this Peter Witchell's the jogger.

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Speaker 2: The jogger.

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Speaker 3: All of a sudden, this guy is identifying Barry. He

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Speaker 3: takes care of the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: And why did Barry even come? I mean, he wasn't

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Speaker 1: anywhere near the crime scene? How did his name even

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Speaker 1: come into the picture? Here?

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Speaker 3: We we we now know, right, you see, at the

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Speaker 3: time that we're doing this case, we don't know exactly

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Speaker 3: why Epilito was doing all these things. And of course

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Speaker 3: this is a house snitch that emerges in all of this,

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Speaker 3: so it goes to Trolie gets convicted. We don't have

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Speaker 3: the DNA evidence, and frankly, as you know well Jason,

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Speaker 3: you know at this time with the Innocence project, if

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Speaker 3: we couldn't find the biological evidence to do a DNA test.

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Speaker 3: We had to close the case.

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Speaker 1: Right, because that was that was the mission of the charter,

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Speaker 1: basically the INNOSCE project that we work on DNA cases. Now,

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Speaker 1: of course this change is afoot, but that's beside the

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Speaker 1: point way.

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Speaker 3: So, but we we even though we had pretty much

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Speaker 3: established that we couldn't find the hares and the clothing

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Speaker 3: or anything like this, we just couldn't close the.

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Speaker 1: Case, which is odd, right because by definition it's the

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Speaker 1: type of one way you go well of it that should.

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Speaker 3: Have been closed. So what happened was what Barry is

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Speaker 3: getting emotional about is that we were essentially saying to him,

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Speaker 3: we're going to have to drop this case, right, but

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Speaker 3: we couldn't.

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Speaker 2: What you did, I'm going to tell you what you did.

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Speaker 2: You broke my heart. You really did. You guys broke

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Speaker 2: my heart. I made a cemetery plot a life of

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Speaker 2: Shurman's policy.

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Speaker 3: And then all of a sudden we wake up and

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Speaker 3: in the front page of all the newspapers in New

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Speaker 3: York City, what.

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Speaker 1: Year, what year?

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Speaker 4: What year was two thousand and four.

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Speaker 1: So this has been going on now for this has

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Speaker 1: probably been about for eleven years now, twelve years, yeah,

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Speaker 1: two thousand and four, you opened the newspaper.

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Speaker 3: Opened the newspaper, and there's a story that a former

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Speaker 3: New York City Police detective, Lewis Epalito, who was famous

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Speaker 3: in his time because he wrote a book called Mafia Cop,

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Speaker 3: where he described how his parents had been The father

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Speaker 3: had been involved in the organized crime, but he hadn't been,

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Speaker 3: and he was a great hero cop, uh, you know,

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Speaker 3: and got a lot of publicity. He was the cop

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Speaker 3: that arrested Barry and took over suddenly swoops in and

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Speaker 3: takes over this case. So Vanessa and I look at

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Speaker 3: this and we go, oh my god, it's we got

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Speaker 3: to call them up and say whatever. They had arrested Epallito.

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Speaker 1: Right, That's why the story was.

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Speaker 2: They had arrested.

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Speaker 3: Epallito and Kara Kappa, another detective with whom he worked,

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Speaker 3: because it was alleged that he had become involved with

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Speaker 3: the mafia.

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Speaker 1: I remember reading the story and he.

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Speaker 3: The two of them had begun doing hits for a

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Speaker 3: crime family, right, and they literally were killing people one

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Speaker 3: after another.

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Speaker 1: You know, this sounds like it's straight out of a

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Speaker 1: Hollywood movie.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: It's we have we have guys in blue wearing badges,

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Speaker 1: doing hits for the mafia in New York City in

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Speaker 1: two thousand.

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Speaker 3: It's all true, and it's crazier than that, Jason, because

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Speaker 3: Lewis Epolito, the so called mafia cop, was in the

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Speaker 3: first scene right of Goodfellas, very first scene of Goodfellas.

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Speaker 1: Like art imitating life imitating art. Years before he was

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Speaker 1: exposed as being a hitman for the mafia and disgraced

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Speaker 1: Louis Eppalito appeared on Sally Jesse Rappa out.

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Speaker 3: What do you do now, Big lou Well.

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Speaker 5: I've acted in nine movies. I've been in Goodfellas, State

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Speaker 5: of Grace, Predator, to I tried writing a screenplay. Gene

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Speaker 5: Hackman has been really great with me and Mikhail Vershnikov

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Speaker 5: and I did a movie with them called Company Business,

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Speaker 5: and I wrote a screenplay and it was brought by

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Speaker 5: New Line Cinema and I just finished the second screenplay.

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Speaker 4: It's better than policing.

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Speaker 5: Pe getting shot out any day.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, as far back as I could remember, I always

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Speaker 3: wanted to be a gangster.

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Speaker 1: And meanwhile, if that's not ironic enough, he's also writing

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Speaker 1: a book about how he's not doing what he is

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Speaker 1: exactly is doing. Right, So it's like the whole thing

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Speaker 1: is a circle of madness. That's, you know, hard to believe.

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Speaker 3: So we write into the US his office and we

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Speaker 3: called them and they say, would you please look into

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Speaker 3: the Barry Gibbs case because something's wrong with this case.

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Speaker 3: We've always thought that Barry was innocent, that he was framed,

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Speaker 3: and unbeknownst to us, and they say, yes, we're going

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Speaker 3: to do that.

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Speaker 1: Get ready for this.

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Speaker 3: By the way, unbeknownst to us, the day that they

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Speaker 3: arrested Epolito in his apartment in Las Vegas, right, they

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Speaker 3: found the original New York City Police Department file on

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Speaker 3: the on the Barry Gibbs case. I mean, the original one.

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Speaker 3: One of the reasons that we couldn't find a lot

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Speaker 3: of things is that it's unprecedented. You know, he's a

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Speaker 3: copy retires, he goes to the police department and he

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Speaker 3: takes the original file.

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Speaker 1: Well maybe he too. I mean, is it your theory

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Speaker 1: that he took the file so that it would never

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Speaker 1: get discovered, and then ironically again, he put it in

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Speaker 1: a place where it could get discovered.

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Speaker 2: A second wording to that, I was sitting in the

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Speaker 2: car with the DA agents. I don't remember their names.

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Speaker 2: I'm not giving you guys up. And I said to them,

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Speaker 2: how many files did you find in the house? And

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Speaker 2: he said three? And I says, well, I'm on my

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Speaker 2: way down. What happened to the two water files? You

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Speaker 2: know what? He said to me, don't worry about them,

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Speaker 2: their career criminals. I said to myself, you got that.

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to say nothing, but I really wanted

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Speaker 2: to say something. Why don't you do your job properly? Well,

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Speaker 2: they did what I didn't.

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Speaker 3: Let's be let's let's be straight about this. So these

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Speaker 3: DEA agents and the US attorneys in the Eastern District,

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Speaker 3: they went out and they started reinvestigating Barry's case. And

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Speaker 3: they went and they talked to Peter Mitchell, right the jogger,

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Speaker 3: and he's living someplace in Queens and they walk in

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Speaker 3: the door and he said, I've been waiting, you know,

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Speaker 3: twenty years.

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Speaker 1: I'm getting the jails right now.

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Speaker 3: For somebody to say this to me. And he bursts

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Speaker 3: into tears and he describes how Epillito threatened him. He himself,

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Speaker 3: Peter Mitchell had been an army veteran, right he had

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Speaker 3: a felony conviction, and Epilitos was threatening him, you know,

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Speaker 3: both physically and to expose him and destroy him. And

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Speaker 3: he brought him into the precinct and he showed him

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Speaker 3: who Barry was, and then they held this ridiculous, bogus

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Speaker 3: lineup and you know, he identified Barry Gibbs.

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, he was given basically no option.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it was a force.

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Speaker 1: So what about the other witness Barry? Who was the

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Speaker 1: park the park police officer he said, a park ranger or.

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Speaker 4: Something, officer Gentilly. He You know, the crazy thing about

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Speaker 4: him is that nobody, you know, he would have been

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Speaker 4: the most reliable witness, right, He's an officer, he's trained

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Speaker 4: to make identifications. Nobody ever asked him that we know of,

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Speaker 4: to look at Barry Gibbs and say, is that the

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Speaker 4: person you saw?

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Speaker 1: Because they didn't want to know.

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Speaker 2: They didn't want to know.

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Speaker 3: When you go back and you look at this case,

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Speaker 3: this is one of the Yeah, I mean, this is

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Speaker 3: what makes Barry Gibbs' case extraordinary in one respect is

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Speaker 3: that it was a completely corrupt cop. And to say

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Speaker 3: corrupt is the understatement of all time. Lewis Eppolito was

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Speaker 3: working at this point in time for a crime family

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Speaker 3: in New York City. He and Kara Kappa I think

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Speaker 3: we're involved in the assassination of eleven people. There's a

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Speaker 3: terrific book written about Lewis Epolito case, and it's called

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Speaker 3: The Good Rat by Jimmy Breslin, you know, perhaps the greatest,

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Speaker 3: you know, Pulitzerprise winning columnist that we've ever had in

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Speaker 3: this town. And he talks about Barry's case. But they

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Speaker 3: were running around killing people, you know, and the Lucasy

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Speaker 3: crime family would say, well, why don't you go kill Guido,

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Speaker 3: and they killed the wrong Nicki Guido they.

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Speaker 1: Did right Nick.

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Speaker 3: They're all contract killings. And so what we have been

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Speaker 3: able to figure out through litigation after Barry was uh exonerated,

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Speaker 3: essentially through the work of these DEA agents who went

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Speaker 3: out and found Peter Mitchell and you know, showed that

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Speaker 3: the whole case was a frame up. We now know

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Speaker 3: that the day that the witnesses saw this body of

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Speaker 3: this poor woman being dumped on the belt Parkway right

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Speaker 3: that the description matched somebody that worked at a chop

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Speaker 3: shop in Brooklyn.

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Speaker 1: Who was known to the cops, who was known to the.

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Speaker 3: And and Epolito mysteriously shows up the next day the

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Speaker 3: next day, we found out this guy who was suspected

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Speaker 3: who to meet the description, right, shows up at the

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Speaker 3: police precinct with his died because originally they described it

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Speaker 3: as somebody with salt and pepper hair. He shows up

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Speaker 3: with his hair dyed black and a lawyer to talk

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Speaker 3: to Epolito. Nothing appears about that, which appears in no

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Speaker 3: police reports.

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Speaker 1: No, there's no reason to take a look at that.

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't you know, when you look back at this,

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Speaker 3: it's unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: So let's go back to the case. So nine years

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Speaker 1: after Varie's conviction, a Brooklyn judge ordered the state to

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Speaker 1: submit evidence from the case for DNA testing, and then

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Speaker 1: what happens, right, It would seem like at that point, Okay,

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Speaker 1: now we got a break. Right now, we're going to

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Speaker 1: get this guy out. Some of the evidence had apparently

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Speaker 1: been destroyed and other items couldn't be found.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that's their side of the case. But my side

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Speaker 2: the case is different from that version.

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Speaker 1: Right there, Okay, let's hear it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, when I was in jail at Riker's Island six

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Speaker 2: months later or whatever, I can't remember exactly how many

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Speaker 2: months later, the district attorney wanted me to give hair

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Speaker 2: samples again. My attorney came up to me and I

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Speaker 2: said to him, I'm not giving it. And he says why.

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Speaker 2: He says, because I'm being framed. I'm not giving it.

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Speaker 2: He says. Listen, Barry, he says, I'm there to represent you. Now,

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Speaker 2: he said, pay attorney, I'm there to represent you. He says.

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Speaker 2: I says, you're gonna be there to represent me when

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Speaker 2: they take these heirs and they're done together, Like, are

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Speaker 2: you gonna be physically right there? He said to me. No,

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Speaker 2: he says, I'm gonna be there when they take the

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Speaker 2: hair samples and the heat seal it and they're gonna

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Speaker 2: give the evidence to who epilto.

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Speaker 4: The chain of custody really fell off with Epilito himself

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Speaker 4: in terms of having handle the evidence, and it was

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Speaker 4: just am I A.

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Speaker 3: You know, And the funny thing that Barry Gibbs is

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Speaker 3: saying is that, you know, he doesn't even want to

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Speaker 3: give his hairs because he doesn't trust trust Lay And

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Speaker 3: you know, from the lawyer's point of view, he's going, oh,

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Speaker 3: I got this Mischugan client, this Tracy client. It doesn't

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Speaker 3: even want to give up airs.

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Speaker 1: But one of the greatest frame ups in the history

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Speaker 1: of New York City.

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Speaker 3: And what's crazy is that you'd look at him and go,

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Speaker 3: you're you're convinced that you're going to be framed, and

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Speaker 3: you won't even give your hairs, and you're saying that

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Speaker 3: we can't trust the detective to even take them to

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Speaker 3: the crime lab and give it a straight up examination.

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Speaker 3: And it turns out everything he suspects is completely true.

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Speaker 3: It is a complete frame. The guy is working for

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Speaker 3: the mafia, he is assassinating people. He probably played around

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Speaker 3: with all of this evidence. We can't prove all of that,

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Speaker 3: but we proved the hell of a lot of it.

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Speaker 1: So for opostal worker, for oppostal worker, Barry turns out

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Speaker 1: to be a pretty good scientist, huh, I mean, or

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Speaker 1: at least a psychologist. Let me ask you this. Also so,

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Speaker 1: the New York City crime laft has faced criticism for

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Speaker 1: its difficulty difficulty is a strange word for its difficulty

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Speaker 1: handling and put that in quotes and storing evidence. In

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Speaker 1: twenty thirteen, the New York City Medical Examiner's Office announced

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Speaker 1: that it had discovered more than fifty cases in which

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Speaker 1: the office failed to upload critical DNA evidence from crime

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Speaker 1: scenes to the state's DNA database, which prevented those samples

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Speaker 1: from being compared to genetic material from convicted defenders. This

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Speaker 1: discovery led to the firing of the office's deputy director

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Speaker 1: of quality assurance, which sounds kind of like a fall

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Speaker 1: guy to me. I mean, the deputy director of quality assurance.

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Speaker 1: That sounds like somebody who works at a snack food

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Speaker 1: company or something like that. You know, so can we

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Speaker 1: can you tell me more about that? Because people like

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Speaker 1: to think that these people are doing their jobs, right.

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Speaker 1: I think the public likes to think that when you have,

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Speaker 1: you know, a crime lab that these people are on.

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Speaker 1: Is now, of course, after making a murderer and after

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Speaker 1: the different things that have come out recently, I think

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Speaker 1: that has generated so much attention that people probably have

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Speaker 1: a little more skeptical view. But even as a lay person,

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Speaker 1: before getting involved in this project, I thought so too.

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Speaker 1: I thought that these people do their jobs. These are

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Speaker 1: honest actors. Right.

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Speaker 3: Number one, what Barry and Vanessa were describing about the

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Speaker 3: search for his evidence, right, It is true that in

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Speaker 3: the old days, at the time that Barry was convicted,

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Speaker 3: they had a terrible system for keeping track of the evidence.

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Speaker 3: It was a mess, and that's not unlike places all

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Speaker 3: across the country. It was a total mess. And they

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Speaker 3: did have fires and asbestos and floods, and they did

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Speaker 3: recently after Sandy, have a problem. But you know, having

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Speaker 3: said that, we did have a problem for years in

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Speaker 3: trying to get a fair search because the evidence custodians really,

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Speaker 3: you know, they were being deliberately indifferent to the need

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Speaker 3: to go look for evidence, even when people were asking,

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Speaker 3: go find my evidence. A DNA test could prove me innocent.

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Speaker 3: They really weren't trying hard. But now I do believe

401
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Speaker 3: that that part of the operation has been professionalized. They

402
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Speaker 3: have a limbs system, you know, it's sort of like

403
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Speaker 3: a barcode system, laboratory information.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 4: They have got they haven't gone back completely, so there's

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Speaker 4: evidence from decades ago. You know, that's still a mass.

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Speaker 4: So it's still it's still incredibly hard for innocent people

408
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Speaker 4: today in New York City to get access to evidence

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Speaker 4: to prove their innocence.

410
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Speaker 1: They didn't go back and cleaned up. And it's odd

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Speaker 1: because married and I talked about this before. You know,

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Speaker 1: our clients. I sometimes think of them and I hope

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Speaker 1: you take this the right way as some of the

414
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Speaker 1: luckiest of the unluckiest people on earth, right, because you

415
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Speaker 1: can't be unluckier than to have well, it's tragic and

416
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Speaker 1: an unlucky as there's an understatement than to have yourself found,

417
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Speaker 1: find yourself in a situation where you wrongfully convey and

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Speaker 1: then you know there's we know that there's you know,

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Speaker 1: tens of thousands maybe more people in prison who are innocent,

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Speaker 1: and then for them to be fortunate enough to get

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Speaker 1: the innocent s part, to have the Innostance Project take

422
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Speaker 1: their case, and then to have the evidence found as

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Speaker 1: it was in Barry's case is really something that could

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Speaker 1: only be described as, you know, half a sot, like

425
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Speaker 1: a miracle.

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Speaker 2: Were blessed. We've punched. I don't know what it is.

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Speaker 2: You kind of surrendered to everything and anything to be

428
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Speaker 2: at the place, oh man, because whatever it is, it's

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Speaker 2: it's unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: In order to move on with your life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I did angels as angels, you don't want to

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Speaker 2: believe it. The Zames.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about the misconduct because, according to

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Speaker 1: a study done by the Endissis Project of Minnesota, official

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Speaker 1: misconduct meaning police or prosecutorium misconduct was a contributing factor

436
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 1: in forty six percent of all DNA exonerations. On records,

437
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 1: it's nineteen eighty nine. Police suppressed evidence that might support

438
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,199
Speaker 1: a defend its innocence in over one third of the

439
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 1: first seventy four exoneration cases. So that's what's one group

440
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,359
Speaker 1: that we studied. And nine percent of exoneration cases involved

441
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: allegations of police coerciing witnesses into testifying, as was allegedly

442
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,919
Speaker 1: the case in your trial. Well we know it was

443
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 1: the case in your trial, Burry. So Barry, I know

444
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 1: you and I talk about this a lot, and Vanessa,

445
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear what you have to say about it.

446
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 1: You know, the prosecutor of misconduct is this? I mean,

447
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: is it just blind ambition that drives these prosecutors? And

448
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: how is it? Like it always blows my mind that

449
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: a prosecutor can be so morally bankrupt that they can

450
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 1: be and ethically that they can be comfortable and sleep

451
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 1: well at night while deliberately knowingly prosecuting and convicting and

452
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 1: sometimes sentencing to death the person who they know to

453
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 1: be innocent. But then the other problem.

454
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 3: Is but that's see, that's where I would take some

455
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,199
Speaker 3: issue right, and that is that I think much of

456
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 3: it the misconduct is something that has been termed noble

457
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 3: cause corruption and that no corruption because they actually believe

458
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:31,959
Speaker 3: that they're prosecuting a guilty person, and then when the

459
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 3: exculpatory evidence seems to pop up right, left and right,

460
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 3: because it turns out they're actually prosecuting an innocent person,

461
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:44,120
Speaker 3: unbeknownst to them, it gets hidden. And that's why it's

462
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:49,360
Speaker 3: so important for lawyers to play by the rules, and

463
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 3: that we're talking about prosecutors playing by the rules that

464
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 3: even if you think you've got a guilty guy who

465
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,880
Speaker 3: committed a horrible crime, you still have to play by

466
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 3: the rules of our system and disclose exculpatory evidence and

467
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 3: not push witnesses beyond what they really are really saw

468
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 3: or heard or want to say. That you have to

469
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 3: somehow control you know, the kinds.

470
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: Of impulses, right, impulses to.

471
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 3: Win that you know are so prevalent in the system.

472
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 3: That's on the one hand. On the other hand, you

473
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 3: need strong defense. You need lawyers that are educated, that

474
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 3: are well funded, you know, that are going to do

475
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 3: the job because unless the defense plays by the rules

476
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 3: and does its job and exposes the problems in the

477
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 3: case the system implodes.

478
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 1: Well, you have and you have the perfect storm there, right.

479
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 1: You have over ambitious prosecutors who become blinded by by

480
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: their belief in the noble cause what do you call it,

481
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 1: noble cause, corruption or and or their own ambition. And

482
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: then you have a public defense who may be not

483
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: up to the task, they may not be qualified, or

484
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 1: they may just be overworked and overwhelmed. Yeah, because some

485
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: of them are some of them are dealing with a

486
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: hundred or more cases at a time, right, so they

487
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: can't possibly devote the type of time that they would

488
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 1: need to do to mount a robust defense. But the

489
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: other thing that always, you know, boggles my mind is

490
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: that as if a prosecutor does let's let's assume the

491
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:28,880
Speaker 1: worst in this case. And we know there are those

492
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: cases right where prosecutors are just like, we got a guy,

493
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: we're just gonna nail them, We're gonna get it off

494
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: our desk, we're gonna close this case, and we're gonna

495
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,199
Speaker 1: move on. We see that, and it's and and of

496
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: course it happens, and sometimes it's noble class corruption and

497
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 1: sometimes it's that. But in those cases, what I can't

498
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: understand is how they could. Well, Well, what we know

499
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: is that when you convict the wrong guy, by definition,

500
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 1: you stop looking for the right guy right. And so

501
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: if a prosecutor is motivated by nothing other than selfish interest,

502
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 1: especially in a small community, to do the math and say, well, look,

503
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: if the right guy's still out there, and he's going

504
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: to go almost invariably or inevitably and go and commit

505
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,479
Speaker 1: more terrible crimes, it could happen to your own family

506
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: or somebody you know, or somebody you love. As a

507
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: prospect of talking about right, So wouldn't you think that,

508
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 1: as a public service, if nothing else motivated them to

509
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 1: do the right thing, that they would want to get

510
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 1: the real perpetrator off the street. And of course we

511
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: know that in many of our cases, I don't know

512
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: the exact percentage when we've exonerately did as a guy,

513
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 1: we find out that the guilty guy has actually gone

514
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,479
Speaker 1: and committed terrible crimes against people who never needed to

515
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 1: be hurt or killed in the first place.

516
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 3: Among the DNA exonerations, close to half involved cases where

517
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 3: we've been able to identify the person who really committed

518
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 3: the crime.

519
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 4: But in a lot of cases too, it's just you know,

520
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 4: there really aren't incentives. There need to be more incentives

521
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 4: on prosecutors, you know, taking on if they get a

522
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 4: case that's brought to them by the police and it

523
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 4: doesn't seem right or they're getting you know, some exculpatory

524
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 4: information to reinvent instigated and not just to see their

525
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 4: jobs to go forward with the case that the police

526
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 4: brought them and to prosecute it. And you know right

527
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 4: now is the incentive is to win, not necessarily to

528
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 4: reevaluate the case, you know, built into the prosecutor's offices

529
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 4: and just in terms of you know, how they're evaluated

530
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 4: what's considered to be a successful prosecutor. And in working

531
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 4: with some of the conviction integrity units where you know, prosecutors'

532
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 4: offices are going back and looking at the cases themselves.

533
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 4: You know, we've heard some of from some of the

534
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 4: leaders you know in this area that you know, when

535
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 4: you're a prosecutor, you completely dehumanize the person who's accused.

536
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 4: You know, that's how you do your job. And so

537
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 4: it also I think takes a you know, we need

538
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 4: a reevaluation in our system we don't treat people who

539
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 4: are coming through the criminal justice system with any sense

540
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 4: of humanity, and that allows prosecutors to kind of put

541
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 4: blinders on, and you know, it's not somebody that they

542
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 4: can relate to. You're not seeing what the devastation that's

543
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 4: happening to the individual to or family. You know, that

544
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 4: is completely.

545
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: Missing for their people. And I think sometimes we lose

546
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: track of that. They're they're not They're not just subjects

547
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: or people who are accused of something or numbers or whatever.

548
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: They're actual people. And we see that over and over again.

549
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: So the conviction review units, this is a relatively new things.

550
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: It's sort of what I think for about five five

551
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: to ten years now, right.

552
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 3: Well, it really started in earnest in two thousand and

553
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 3: seven in Dallas, Texas, when an African American defense attorney

554
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 3: at the age in his thirties was elected District Attorney

555
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 3: of Dallas.

556
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 1: Pretty unlikely scenario all right around, and.

557
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 3: You know, it was kind of a fluke or unexpected

558
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 3: and he came into office, Craig Watkins, and among the

559
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 3: first things that he did is that he created this

560
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 3: conviction integrity unit. The Innocence Project actually went to a

561
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 3: foundation that got him put up half the money because

562
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 3: it was a matching thing of the Dallas City Council

563
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 3: and this foundation in the Jet Foundation, and he put

564
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 3: in charge of the conviction Integrity unit a guy named

565
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 3: Mike Ware who came from an innocence organization in Lubbock, Texas.

566
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 3: So the Innocence Project of Texas, working with our Innocence

567
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 3: Project based in New York, started working with the Dallas

568
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 3: District Attorney's Office and their conviction Integrity Unit and reviewed

569
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 3: all the cases where they had been resisting requests for

570
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 3: DNA testing and reviewed them all. I mean, we literally

571
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 3: got the entire prosecutor file, looked at it, reviewed the

572
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 3: case sometimes when there was no DNA evidence, although in Dallas,

573
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 3: as opposed to New York, they were able to find it.

574
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 3: That's why there's more exonerations in Dallas than in most states.

575
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 3: If we had been able to find the evidence in

576
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 3: New York the way we've discussed before were and when

577
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:02,959
Speaker 3: we were searching for it in Barry Gibbs's case, if

578
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 3: we could find more of it, New York would have hundreds,

579
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 3: hundreds of exonerations. I think any fair minded person would agree.

580
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 3: We just couldn't find the evidence of.

581
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: Many Dallas go from the county with the highest execution

582
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: rate to the county with the highest exoneration rate just about, Yeah,

583
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: which is an incredible Let's think about that for a second, right,

584
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: And what that conviction review unit has meant to these

585
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,719
Speaker 1: people who were some of them would have been executed there.

586
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 2: Could you imagine on death row?

587
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: No, you can't imagine. Anyone can imagine it. Maybe maybe

588
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: you can imagine, right, but no one else that hasn't

589
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: been there can imagine. And that's one of the reasons

590
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: why we do the work that we do. So these

591
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: conviction review units, I believe there's not twenty four of

592
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: them around the country, right, Well, some of some are affected.

593
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 3: Summer not some some are for real and some aren't.

594
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 3: But some are for show, right, some are for show.

595
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 3: But one of the telltale signs is will they bring

596
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 3: somebody in to that conviction integrity unit or conviction review

597
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 3: unit who has a background as a defense lawyer? Rightly,

598
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 3: because the cognitive bias is very, very hard. I mean,

599
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 3: you know, I do not believe that there are you know,

600
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 3: most prosecutors. I think it's a rare, rare exception you know,

601
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 3: actually get up in the morning and say I'm now

602
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 3: going to convict an innocent person. I don't, you know,

603
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 3: I don't think that really happens. But I think what

604
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 3: does happen is, you know, you get what they call

605
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 3: hard charging, people who lose track of playing by the

606
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 3: rules or the humanity of the defendants or the gravity

607
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 3: of their responsibilities. That can happen. And it's a question

608
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 3: of you know, cognitive bias. Right, you have to change

609
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 3: the whole orientation of how prosecutors look at their job.

610
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 3: And by the way, you know, overwhelmed institutional defenders. Right,

611
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 3: you know, you have so many cases you begin to

612
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 3: look at them and go, well, you know, I got

613
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 3: to get through my docket, right, and every case this

614
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 3: looks the same, you know, and you don't put in

615
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 3: the effort because you.

616
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: Can't and you don't have the money to hire the

617
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: type of people that you would need to go and

618
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: prove you as whereas the government can parade out a

619
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: forensic thing or design as we saw it again and

620
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: making a murderer. I just had two more questions I

621
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 1: wanted to ask you one, you know, back to the prosecutors.

622
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: So we need to have as Vanessa was saying, a

623
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: higher standard or a better way of evaluating prosecutors so

624
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: that they are more driven to achieve results that are

625
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: based in fact, let's just call it that as opposed

626
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: to achieving convictions, to achieve justice as opposed to convictions.

627
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 1: But we also need, in my view, we need to

628
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: have a much stronger system a prosecuting proscutor holy prosecutors

629
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: accountable in this country. As far as I know, you know,

630
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,720
Speaker 1: we've had, with all the prosecutorial mist conduct we've seen

631
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: throughout the decades, there's only really been two cases of

632
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,760
Speaker 1: any prosecutors being held accountable in a way that winds

633
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: that lands them up in jail. Barry, can you just

634
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: speak for a second about the prosecutorial misconduct and how

635
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: they can be held a constable. What channel changes have

636
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 1: to be made for these guys to be thrown out

637
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: or thrown in jail.

638
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:18,760
Speaker 3: Well, there's some simple things that might be done. One

639
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 3: is that the Justice Department could bring prosecutions when we

640
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 3: find out years later that a prosecutor engaged in deliberate

641
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,240
Speaker 3: misconduct that led to the conviction of an innocent person

642
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 3: intentionally deprived them of their civil rights. The problem that

643
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 3: we've had in the past is when we go to

644
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,720
Speaker 3: the Department of Justice and say, look, we have DNA evidence,

645
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 3: we have all kinds of evidence that showed that somebody

646
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 3: was deliberately framed. This prosecutor should be prosecuted. They say

647
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,919
Speaker 3: to us, look, the statute of limitations under federal law

648
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 3: is five years, and it's very hard to conjure an

649
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 3: ongoing conspiracy to conceal it in most of these cases,

650
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 3: so there would be no jurisdiction for the federal government

651
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 3: to do that. It's possible to amend the laws, so

652
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,959
Speaker 3: I think that might make a big difference. The other

653
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 3: aspect is that there has to be a concerted effort

654
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 3: to hold lawyers to their ethical responsibilities. One of the

655
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 3: things we found is that even in bar discipline, there

656
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 3: are statual limitations problems, and the bar discipline system does

657
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 3: not take seriously those prosecutors who break the rules, and frankly,

658
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 3: the defense layers who simply you know, have given up

659
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 3: and are just collecting checks and are not providing effective

660
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 3: assistance of counsel. And so one of the things we

661
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 3: have to do is change that system so that people

662
00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 3: take that seriously. They can lose their licenses, they can

663
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 3: can actually be prosecuted in the most egregious of cases.

664
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 3: And if that happens, I think that, you know, you

665
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 3: will begin to see change. And we have to we

666
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 3: can't talk past each other, and we can't say, you know, demonize.

667
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,879
Speaker 3: You know, it's not all prosecutors that you know are

668
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 3: engaged in this kind of conduct. Far from it.

669
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: No, there's a lot of good guys out there, you know.

670
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 1: And I've always admired that the fact that you managed

671
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: to keep your sanity through all the things that you've

672
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 1: gone through with these crazy cases and the people you've

673
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 1: had to deal with. So before we wrap up, Barry,

674
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,439
Speaker 1: what can you share with us? You served nineteen years

675
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: in prison for something you didn't do. Your presence always

676
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: lights up a room, you know. I know that when

677
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: you all can't see him through the radio, but when

678
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,959
Speaker 1: you're at the Ennoceince Project dinner, I know I always

679
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 1: look forward to seeing you. He's he Barry is a guy.

680
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: He's I don't even know how to describe him, but

681
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 1: he's just a larger than life character. Who is you know,

682
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 1: who really drives that It really motivates I still want

683
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: to do more. You know, when we meet somebody like

684
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 1: you who's just got an incredible spirit and uh, you know,

685
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: who has overcome so much and been and really served

686
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 1: the country honorably and done so much, you know good,

687
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: it's it's a fantastic guy.

688
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 2: I suffer to this day, you know, because you took

689
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,399
Speaker 2: me out of a beautiful home. You threw me into

690
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: the military. I did a good life for a few years,

691
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 2: had a beautiful life, and this happens to me and

692
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 2: you throw me in jail. Do you really expect me

693
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 2: to feel like other people? I doubt it. I'll never

694
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 2: feel that way.

695
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 1: You know.

696
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:45,839
Speaker 2: I've been through therapy. I've you know, I've I've been

697
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 2: through a lot just to survive. I mean, I was

698
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 2: in the hospital. I was messed up. I thought I

699
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 2: was gonna die. I'm here, I've been saved. I don't

700
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 2: know why I got angels around me. If I need

701
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 2: a brockram spot it stay up for me. You know,

702
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,320
Speaker 2: I don't know what it is. You know what I'm saying,

703
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 2: And those.

704
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 6: Are my angels. Those are my angels that are around me.

705
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 6: But the Innocence Project to me is more than just

706
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 6: a family. There are hearts. You know there were hearts.

707
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

708
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 1: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud

709
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll

710
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

711
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot

712
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 1: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd

713
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 1: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

714
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

715
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

716
00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Podcast.

717
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

718
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:12,320
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one