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Speaker 1: Reddit had an entire thread after my first appearance about

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Speaker 1: whether or not I was a pedophile because of the wig,

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Speaker 1: literally because of the wig.

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Speaker 2: Oh you think it was about the wig.

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Speaker 1: I I'm Kelly o'coin, I'm bald, and I love whiskey.

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Speaker 2: Give me too, Kelly, me too. Hello everybody, and welcome

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Speaker 2: to my podcast Off the Beat, or if you've been

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Speaker 2: here before, welcome back to Off the Beat. I am

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Speaker 2: your host, Brian Baumgartner. Today I am talking to one

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Speaker 2: of the worst, most despicable people in the entire world,

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Speaker 2: or at least that's who he plays on TV. I

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Speaker 2: have Kecoin, who is dollar Bill Stern from the show Billions.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately for us all I know you're going to be

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Speaker 2: disappointed to learn this. In real life, he's a very

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Speaker 2: nice man. He is not calculated and cheap and cutthroat

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Speaker 2: as is his character. He is, in fact, unfortunately lovely.

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Speaker 2: A lot of his non Billions characters are decent people too.

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Speaker 2: He was the charitable pastor Tim in The Americans, the

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Speaker 2: diligent detective Scott Gordon in The Girl from Plainville Scott

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Speaker 2: Galloway and We Crashed and coming up next month, LA

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Speaker 2: Clippers president Andy Roser in the new series clipped on

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Speaker 2: Hulu see nice guys don't always finish Last. Kelly is

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Speaker 2: doing just fine. We're going to get into his childhood.

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Speaker 2: Kelly was the son of a congressman. We're going to

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Speaker 2: figure out if we ever crossed paths on the region,

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Speaker 2: theater circuit, and much much more. Here he is. Dare

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Speaker 2: I say my new friend, Kelly o'coin.

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Speaker 1: Bubble and squeak, I love it, Bubble and squeak on,

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Speaker 1: Bubble and squeak, I.

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Speaker 3: Cook get every mole lift over from the ninety before.

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Speaker 2: What's up, Kelly? Hey, how are you? I'm good? How

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Speaker 2: are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm good? Thank you for having me on. This is

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Speaker 1: so fun.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for joining me. I want to start this

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Speaker 2: off by just saying, you know, I have a I

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Speaker 2: have an extensive crack research team here that that does

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Speaker 2: a lot of the heavy lifting for me. However, I

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Speaker 2: like to look around on my own as well, and

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Speaker 2: I found your usite and the thing that I assume

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Speaker 2: you wrote yourself, which I found just delightful.

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Speaker 1: Which part the about me.

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Speaker 2: Did you not write? Yes, the about me you wrote it?

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Speaker 2: I could, I did? You can't think that? Now?

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Speaker 1: That was one of those things when you know you're

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Speaker 1: between gigs and or as others like to say, unemployed,

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Speaker 1: and to fill the void, you start writing stuff and

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Speaker 1: it feels like creativity. It may or may not be.

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Speaker 2: But as your eighties it is. I think I thought

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Speaker 2: it was. I thought it was great, and weirdly, I

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Speaker 2: feel like I learned more about you by reading it,

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Speaker 2: which I guess is really the point. And what I

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Speaker 2: what I mean by that is which is it's interesting

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Speaker 2: because it's kind of what I'm trying to do here anyway.

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Speaker 2: But you've sort of done it yourself, which is you

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Speaker 2: can say these things about yourself for your wife or

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Speaker 2: the work that you've done, or theater or in your

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Speaker 2: case hair, and you, you know, you learn those factual things.

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Speaker 2: But in terms of reading your tone, I feel like

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Speaker 2: I picked up on your sense of humor and your

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Speaker 2: sort of perspective and maybe just a few hints about

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Speaker 2: your beliefs about the world. Anyway, I thought it was

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Speaker 2: very well done. Oh thanks, well, yeah, and really like

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Speaker 2: how it should be as opposed to like trying to

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Speaker 2: turn yourself into this I don't know, weird third person,

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Speaker 2: which I feel like I do too much. It's like

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Speaker 2: you know he you know, did blah blah blah blah blah,

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Speaker 2: and you're like, I'm speaking about myself and the third person,

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Speaker 2: which is very odd. Anyway, it was very personal, so

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Speaker 2: I wanted you to know that I appreciated it.

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Speaker 1: There is always this tension when you're in a play,

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Speaker 1: in particular where you have to write a bio and yes,

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Speaker 1: either either you it's it's kind of sucks both ways.

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Speaker 1: Either you get like, okay, in forty words, explain your

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Speaker 1: career in life, or they give you too much time,

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Speaker 1: so but then you start doing what you said. It's

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Speaker 1: like Kelly o'coin was very active in the theater arts

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Speaker 1: from a young age, and I was like, I just

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Speaker 1: I'm Kelly. Why am I am? I?

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Speaker 2: I know, but it's it's interesting. I had never actually

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Speaker 2: had this conversation with anyone before because I guess because

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Speaker 2: you did yours so well. The bio is a very

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Speaker 2: odd thing to either write or have written for you.

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Speaker 2: I'll actually tell I'll actually tell. I got this I've

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Speaker 2: not talked about and I apologize if anyone who was

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Speaker 2: involved is listening, but I recently did a fundraiser for

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Speaker 2: a local thing. Just said yes and I did a

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Speaker 2: fund fundraiser and I got asked the question will you

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Speaker 2: say to bio so we can introduce you, which, of

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Speaker 2: course I'm like, this is not there's no professional benefit

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Speaker 2: for this bot. There's nothing, there's nothing that this will

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Speaker 2: achieve for me. So of course, what did I do? Nothing?

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Speaker 2: And I didn't do it, and I didn't do it,

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Speaker 2: and then like a certain number of days went by

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Speaker 2: and I got an email it said, hey, so I

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Speaker 2: know we haven't gotten a bio from you yet. So

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Speaker 2: I went to chat GBT and chat Chet wrote this

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Speaker 2: bio of you, which you know, for me and yours

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Speaker 2: would be the opposite, by the way, yours would be

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Speaker 2: like he's an asshole and blah blah blah. Mine was

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Speaker 2: like he's the lovable, whimsical blah blah blah from you know,

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Speaker 2: he's known for playing golf and liking sports, you know,

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Speaker 2: like it's like and I was like immediately like no, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: we could do better than that. Please.

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Speaker 1: So that was not read in front of the crowd.

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Speaker 2: No, I got sent it and then yeah, I have.

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Speaker 1: Had a couple of circumstances where because there are bios

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Speaker 1: that are written to be read yes, not out loud,

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Speaker 1: paper correct. And there's a way you phrase things that

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Speaker 1: you know. There's a way you phray things. Phrasings also

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Speaker 1: for bios that are written to be spoken. And I

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Speaker 1: have more than once been at a place where I'm

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Speaker 1: at an event where I'm introduced, not knowing they were

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Speaker 1: going to read a bio and never asked me for

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Speaker 1: a bio, but just read like the longest version of

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Speaker 1: the longest bio I've ever written that they somehow found.

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Speaker 1: And so they start and five minutes later they're finishing

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Speaker 1: with this stuff like and he brilliantly portrayed, and blah blah.

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Speaker 1: I I don't even know who wrote that thing. And

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Speaker 1: then I have to get up and be brilliant.

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Speaker 2: I know that is so true, because I do the

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Speaker 2: college thing, and I'm because I can hear it. Of course,

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Speaker 2: I'm like ding back, and my leg starts twitching and like,

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Speaker 2: come on, no, no, no, just move skip to the end,

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Speaker 2: skip stop, stop, skip.

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Speaker 1: To the end, fast forward, fast forward.

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Speaker 2: He then wrote a cookbook. Oh no, stop, please, I

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Speaker 2: don't need no, we're not studied.

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Speaker 1: Another language and maybe traveled more.

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Speaker 2: Oh boy, well there you go. There's a first for you.

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Speaker 2: Ladies and gents, the bio talk. It's not as easy

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Speaker 2: as it looks. And that's the final thing I'll say

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Speaker 2: is that is the other thing which should be mentioned,

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Speaker 2: because exactly what you said, a bio must be structured

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Speaker 2: for the event. If it's a lifetime achievement award, go

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Speaker 2: on for ten twelve minutes, sure, why not? But the

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Speaker 2: the like just the random email or text, Hey can

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Speaker 2: you send me a bio? It's like, no, all bios

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Speaker 2: are not meant exactly what he said. So that's work,

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Speaker 2: and you have to think about how is this going

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Speaker 2: to feel if this is said out loud?

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Speaker 1: What's the event? How many people? What's the venue?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Exactly, exactly? All right, Well, speaking of bios, I

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Speaker 2: don't know. I couldn't come up with a transition at all.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk about you. Oh, you grew up in Oregon

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Speaker 2: and your dad. I think this is another first for

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Speaker 2: the podcast. And by the way, we haven't talked to

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Speaker 2: just four people. We got two firsts right off the bat.

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Speaker 2: Your dad was a politician, first the Oregon House of

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Speaker 2: Representatives and then a US congressman in Oregon's first district.

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Speaker 2: So how for you? First of all, one fascinating. How

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Speaker 2: old were you when this was going on. I mean

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Speaker 2: he was in politics your entire life or did he,

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Speaker 2: you know, transition into that.

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Speaker 1: I was three maybe not getting the months right. I

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Speaker 1: was three when he was first elected to the state legislature.

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Speaker 1: And he was there for two terms, so four years.

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Speaker 1: He was the I can brag on my dad all

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Speaker 1: day long. So just like pulled up a finger or

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Speaker 1: like slashed the throat if you want to stop. But

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Speaker 1: his second term, he was the House majority leader, the

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Speaker 1: youngest House majority leader ever. And then he ran for

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Speaker 1: US Congress and was the first Democrat ever elected to

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Speaker 1: the first district, which is like half of Portland to

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Speaker 1: the coast and the Washington border down to like Corvallis,

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Speaker 1: which is where the status and everyone on the podcast

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Speaker 1: is like, well, thank god he got the geography in there.

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Speaker 1: And he was in the US House. We moved to

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Speaker 1: d C. He was in the US House for eighteen years,

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Speaker 1: nine terms. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Wow, So you were at that So at that point,

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Speaker 2: you weren't going back and forth. You were you were

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Speaker 2: like you went to school in DC, you were you

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Speaker 2: were a DC guy.

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Speaker 1: It was a little back and forth. We did the

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Speaker 1: rest of grade school, second second half of second grade

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Speaker 1: through fifth grade in d C, and sixth and seventh grade,

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Speaker 1: junior high back in Oregon in the central Oregon area,

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Speaker 1: and then high school back in d C, and then

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Speaker 1: college in Ohio. I went to Oberlin, so I said,

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Speaker 1: split the difference Midwest.

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Speaker 2: Wow, So how was that for you one as a kid?

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Speaker 2: I mean, you're you're quite young when he ends up

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Speaker 2: getting elected and going to d C. So you know,

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Speaker 2: obviously you have friends, but you're leaving. Like for you culturally,

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Speaker 2: is there a big change for you in terms of

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Speaker 2: the environment moving from Oregon to d C.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. This was a small town Forest Grove, Oregon,

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Speaker 1: and it was as small as that sounds. Okay, great

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Speaker 1: little town, but small. And then to d C in

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Speaker 1: the mid seventies, and you know, East coast cities were

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Speaker 1: going through a lot of difficulties in this evanies and

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Speaker 1: d C was no different. But it was Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was bigger and it was louder. I think for me,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm an extrovert and it was kind of exciting

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Speaker 1: to meet new people. My sister and I actually entered

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Speaker 1: at the beginning of natural transitions.

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Speaker 3: Like sixth grade or yeah.

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Speaker 1: Like sixth grade and junior high, so a bunch of

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Speaker 1: new kids were coming to a new place and same

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Speaker 1: thing with high school. My sister had it slightly different,

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Speaker 1: so it was a little bit harder for her, I think,

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Speaker 1: but you know, I I loved it. I had a

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Speaker 1: fun time in d C. We lived near Rock Creek Park,

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Speaker 1: and if anyone knows d C, it's like this huge,

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Speaker 1: sprawling wilderness area. So we got a little bit of

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Speaker 1: Oregon there kind of. And in retrospect, I think it's

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Speaker 1: great because I feel I feel comfortable in small towns.

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Speaker 1: I feel comfortable in the mountains where my family's actually from,

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Speaker 1: and I feel comfortable in big cities. They all have

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Speaker 1: different joys, discover, so I thank my parents for that.

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Speaker 2: Actually, do you feel like you are especially patriotic or

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Speaker 2: like have a special affinity for your hometown or for

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Speaker 2: the state of Oregon given that your dad went through this,

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Speaker 2: or do you feel and that you went through this,

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Speaker 2: or do you feel like from the inside there and this,

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Speaker 2: that's a long time that he was in office and

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Speaker 2: so you saw a lot of things. Do you feel

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Speaker 2: more skeptical of government having seen it from that side?

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Speaker 1: I'll work my way up to that answer. The first one,

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Speaker 1: I do have a special I always have a soft

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Speaker 1: spot for Oregon. The one sports team I am fanatical

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Speaker 1: about is the Portland Trail Blazers.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I've heard, Yes.

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Speaker 1: You know, they won their they won their only championship

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Speaker 1: a year after we moved to d C. Okay, you know,

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Speaker 1: so that was special. It's like a little bit of

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Speaker 1: Oregon saying it's gonna be okay, kid. And then I

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Speaker 1: don't remember if I wrote this in the bio. I

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Speaker 1: hope not, because I'll be repeating myself. But then the

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Speaker 1: next year, the Washington Bullets won the championship, and so

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Speaker 1: my two to my og team and my adopted second

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Speaker 1: favorite team win championships back to back. And as a

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Speaker 1: ten year old, I'm like, oh, this is this is

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Speaker 1: fucking great. So this is how it works. You you

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Speaker 1: you like teams and they win championships, this is going

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Speaker 1: to be great. And neither of them have won.

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Speaker 2: Sense I knew. I knew where the punchline was going.

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Speaker 2: Yeah you know those teams? Yeah yeah, So.

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Speaker 1: I love I love DC, I love Oregon, I love Portland.

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Speaker 1: I you know, I hurt for it because it's going

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Speaker 1: through some transitions just to like a lot of West

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Speaker 1: Coast cities right now. In terms of government, I so

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Speaker 1: it's not an either or. I am deeply patriotic and

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Speaker 1: I am deeply pissed off of my country a lot.

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Speaker 1: And I think where people get into trouble is assuming

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Speaker 1: that patriotism means blind blind acceptance. I feel I am

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Speaker 1: so deeply patriotic that I can criticize the hell out

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Speaker 1: of my country when I think it's doing wrong it

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Speaker 1: can do better.

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Speaker 3: You believe that your dad did it for all the

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Speaker 3: right reasons because you wanted to help him, to serve I.

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Speaker 2: Do to hear.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there were there were. Honestly, the phrase fight the

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Speaker 1: good fight was constantly used, and people use that as

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Speaker 1: a joke or ironically, it was constantly used in my

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Speaker 1: family by my mom and by my dad, because that's

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Speaker 1: how they were raised and that's how they wanted to

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Speaker 1: raise us. You can the only way you can make changes,

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Speaker 1: to be involved. The only way you can ensure that

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Speaker 1: change will not happen is to drop out.

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Speaker 2: So that's actually that's true, not just in government, but

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Speaker 2: in life and work, just totally. Your first role, I

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Speaker 2: have been told, was a campaign commercial for your dad.

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Speaker 2: Did you have an affinity for or an interest in

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Speaker 2: acting prior to that that you did? Okay?

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Speaker 1: I did? Yeah, I think I knew I wanted to

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Speaker 1: be an actor since like second grade. Okay, certainly like

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Speaker 1: fifth grade. But but that was my first screen job,

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Speaker 1: that thirty second commercial.

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Speaker 2: Yes, do you feel like And I don't mean this

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Speaker 2: in a truly in a negative way at all. Most

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Speaker 2: of the time when people say that, they actually do,

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Speaker 2: but I actually I really don't. But there is an

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Speaker 2: element of performance, whether you're whether you're fighting for what

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Speaker 2: you believe in or not, there is an element of performance.

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Speaker 2: There is public speaking, there is behaving differently around different people,

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Speaker 2: whether they're electorate or you know, people you work with,

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Speaker 2: other representatives, whatever. Did you watch that play out at all?

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Speaker 2: And I, and I ask more because you know, for

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Speaker 2: me as someone who I know you were interested in

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Speaker 2: acting and the arts. Is this something that you watched?

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Speaker 2: Did you watch this play out? Were you conscious of

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Speaker 2: it or do you think you just absorbed it?

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Speaker 1: I was definitely conscious of it. That's a great question.

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Speaker 1: I my dad has always said that he wasn't. His

287
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Speaker 1: natural habitat was not in front of a crowd, so

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Speaker 1: he definitely there was you know, the mind was you know,

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Speaker 1: I as soon as I got in front of a crowd,

290
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Speaker 1: I was like, hey, this is awesome. But so yeah,

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Speaker 1: I saw him and everybody does it. Even if you

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Speaker 1: are comfortable, there's a different way you have to present ideas,

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Speaker 1: your parent ideas when you are having a conversation versus

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Speaker 1: you are speaking to a crowd of five, ten, fifteen,

295
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Speaker 1: one thousand, whatever it is, And that's just common sense,

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Speaker 1: and that means you perform differently. Yeah, I think I

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Speaker 1: like the way you phrased it at the beginning, by

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Speaker 1: the way you asked the question you said. I'm not

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Speaker 1: necessarily saying this is a bad thing, because I do

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Speaker 1: think when people are speaking of politicians performing or speechifying,

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Speaker 1: and it's like, well, yeah, because it's a speech, you know,

302
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Speaker 1: it's yeah, we're not just sitting here having a beer together.

303
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Speaker 1: There's there is.

304
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Speaker 2: This is not how you would behave if you were

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Speaker 2: sitting with your brother in a local pub.

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Speaker 1: Yes, if you and I were having a beer and

307
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Speaker 1: all of a sudden I pulled out a lectern, you'd

308
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Speaker 1: think I was a little odd.

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Speaker 2: Can we get that tell? Can we get that teleprompter?

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Speaker 2: On please thank you.

311
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Speaker 1: That's right, And so yeah, I would see him and

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Speaker 1: other other politicians get up and go into a different state.

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Speaker 1: That was an ironically, that is a way to a

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Speaker 1: to achieve a certain a more honest truth. Given the

315
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Speaker 1: medium or given the position you're in speaking to a press,

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Speaker 1: you're not going to impart the information if you just

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Speaker 1: sort of casually, you know, if you haven't written anything,

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Speaker 1: you speak top of your head. I mean some people,

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Speaker 1: some current politicians, like to do that. I would argue

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Speaker 1: they're not getting any points across. They're just there's just

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Speaker 1: some personality thing happening. But let's not go there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So yes, there is a performative thing. And that was

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Speaker 1: one that I always say. My mom used to sing,

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Speaker 1: not hugely professionally, but she'd sing. I'd see her in

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Speaker 1: front of groups every once in a while singing. And

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Speaker 1: my dad was in front of crowds, parting ideas, working

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Speaker 1: with scripts, which is what speeches are.

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Speaker 2: Right, this is occurring to me right now. You said

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Speaker 2: your dad wasn't necessarily gifted or the most comfortable in

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Speaker 2: front of people. Who was the best that you you

332
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Speaker 2: remember seeing?

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Speaker 1: Well, he was very good. My dad was very good.

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Speaker 1: Just it was something where it was I think it

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Speaker 1: took you know, emotionally, when you get out in front

336
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Speaker 1: of a crowd, you probably are like me, I'm guessing

337
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Speaker 1: where it's like, this is gonna be awesome, and you

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Speaker 1: get energy from the idea of it. So but he

339
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Speaker 1: was very good, which was which is another thing I admired,

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Speaker 1: working creating a strength out of something that wasn't necessarily

341
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Speaker 1: an inherent strength, okay, or didn't feel like to him.

342
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Speaker 1: The best I ever saw Bill Clinton was incredible, and

343
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Speaker 1: Jesse Jackson I got to see live, and actually everything

344
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Speaker 1: I said about having to prepare and not speaking semporaneously,

345
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,159
Speaker 1: I threw out the window because I don't think he

346
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Speaker 1: had a single note, and he spoke for half an

347
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Speaker 1: hour and everything made one hundred percent CeNSE. And the

348
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,080
Speaker 1: little little kernel's little seeds he planted in minute two

349
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Speaker 1: reached fruition in minute twenty seven and a half. You know,

350
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Speaker 1: it's just like he was. He's probably the best I've

351
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Speaker 1: ever seen.

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Speaker 3: You went to Oberlin, as you mentioned before, this was

353
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Speaker 3: to become an actor.

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Speaker 1: First of all, shout out to Oberlin. I just got

355
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,280
Speaker 1: back yesterday. My niece just graduated from Oberlin.

356
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Speaker 2: So that was shout out Oberlin, congratulations. I always think

357
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Speaker 2: of I don't know what it is if it's the

358
00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,840
Speaker 2: name Oberlin, and I know it's very big in music.

359
00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:44,120
Speaker 2: I always think of the Obo. I don't know why

360
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,280
Speaker 2: someone say, oh, I'm I I went to Oberlin, and

361
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Speaker 2: the first thought in my head was, oh, you're you

362
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 2: play the Obo. I don't know why that you're an

363
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,280
Speaker 2: oboe with I didn't know if that was a word.

364
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,160
Speaker 2: Shout out Oberlin. Did you go there for theater?

365
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Speaker 1: So I didn't approach college in a particularly strategic way,

366
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Speaker 1: I think, except that I decided that I wasn't going

367
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Speaker 1: to go to a conservatory. Northwestern was very interesting to me.

368
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 1: A couple other places were interesting to me. But I

369
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Speaker 1: decided that going to undergrad I wanted. I wanted a

370
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Speaker 1: liberal arts.

371
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Speaker 2: This is me what you're speaking of, this is this

372
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,440
Speaker 2: is exactly my speech, exactly.

373
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Speaker 1: I tried to model myself after you, Jenn.

374
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Speaker 2: I figured you're a little older, simmer down kellywn Yes,

375
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 2: you did somehow somewhere in your brain.

376
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,400
Speaker 1: Yes, so I, uh, you know, I'm going to wikipedia

377
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 1: you later. So uh so Oberlin had I did not

378
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 1: go to the con I was not going to be

379
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 1: a musician. But the College of Arts and Sciences was

380
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 1: really was a great school as well, and I was

381
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:59,399
Speaker 1: interested in history. I was interested in particularly at the time,

382
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 1: in doing theater and Shakespeare and Moliere and historical plays,

383
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,159
Speaker 1: so the history kind of fed in with that. I

384
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 1: was doing a Moliere play called The miser As I

385
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 1: was studying about the French Revolution, which would have been

386
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 1: one hundred years later, and I thought that was kind

387
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 1: of cool, So I actually went in spite of the

388
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 1: fact that I wanted to be an actor, if that

389
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 1: makes sense. The great thing about that school at the

390
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 1: time and probably still now, it's two things. We had

391
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 1: a number of great professors and some great adjunct professors

392
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 1: over the course of the time I was there in

393
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,439
Speaker 1: a great summer theater institute. But I didn't have to

394
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 1: be a major to do any play. I could get

395
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,639
Speaker 1: into or take any class, so I didn't have to

396
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 1: take all the classes, but I could take all the

397
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 1: scene study, and if I wanted to do some tech

398
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 1: costume design or lighting sign I could do that that

399
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 1: I didn't have to and I could get my degree

400
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 1: in history. And then if I was going to go

401
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 1: to grad school, that's where I would more. I ended

402
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 1: up not doing that. I ended up going diving right in,

403
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 1: but which was Sometimes I think it would have been

404
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 1: better to go to grad school, just because you come

405
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 1: out with a showcase and agents and at least some

406
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,360
Speaker 1: connections and a chance to get signed earlier than I did.

407
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,680
Speaker 1: And I think I'm not unhappy with where things went

408
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 1: for me. But I do think that the five ten

409
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: years where I struggled would have been maybe a little

410
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 1: easier if I'd gone the grad school groupe. But I'm

411
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 1: not in debt, so there's that.

412
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 2: Look, our stories are are very similar. I went, I

413
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 2: did go to a conservatory school, but within a larger university.

414
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:50,159
Speaker 2: I went to SMU there in Dallas, and I began

415
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 2: doing theater, and theater was all I thought that I

416
00:24:53,680 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 2: would ever do. Our paths likely crossed. Maybe maybe while

417
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 2: you were closing down, I was moving in in looking

418
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 2: at your resume.

419
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,919
Speaker 1: Got another age, did geeze nothing well?

420
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 2: Or maybe the other way around. But I would have

421
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 2: been playing a young on ingenu. So yeah, so I wondered.

422
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 2: I mean, I know you started doing a little work

423
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,159
Speaker 2: on guests daring on soaps, which I do want to

424
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,120
Speaker 2: hear about because I think, by the way, fantastic training

425
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 2: for actors being thrown into the fire that quickly. But

426
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 2: did you have interest in film and television or for me,

427
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 2: all I ever thought I would be was a theater actor.

428
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had interest, but it was a very sheepish interest.

429
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 1: It was like I didn't I thought it was so

430
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 1: far beyond me. I didn't have any role models who

431
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: were doing it or who went on to do it

432
00:25:55,880 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 1: soon after I knew them, So it was an interesting phenomenon.

433
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 1: I think another reason why things took a little while

434
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 1: for me was that I wasn't even able to name

435
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 1: that thing that I wanted. I wanted to do theater.

436
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: I wanted, but I knew that. But I had I

437
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 1: had faith that I could get there. I had more

438
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 1: faith that I could get on Broadway than I did

439
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 1: that I could get on TV.

440
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 2: Wow.

441
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,640
Speaker 1: And when I talk to younger actors, now, if I

442
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: don't don't feel ashamed at your ambition, about your ambition,

443
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: it's not presumptuous to have ambition. And I think there's

444
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 1: a part of my brain that felt presumptuous even saying, oh,

445
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 1: you know what i'd really like, I'd like to be

446
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: a series regular on a television show, right, And I would.

447
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,479
Speaker 1: I just I felt embarrassed saying it because it was like, well,

448
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 1: of course you're not going to be. And it took

449
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: me a long time to get over that. And I

450
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: wish i'd told somebody. I had a number of mentor

451
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 1: types who I think would have been like, get the

452
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 1: fuck over yourself and say what you want, right, because

453
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: there are a lot of bad TV actors out here, son,

454
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 1: so you could be one too. Just don't lose your

455
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: hair and you'll be fine.

456
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 2: I uh, yeah, it's it's that's fascinating to me and

457
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 2: actually makes a ton of sense.

458
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:21,199
Speaker 3: You know.

459
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 2: I think I just didn't even I don't know. Maybe

460
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 2: it's a similar thing for me. It just was never

461
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 2: a thought until it was until it was like, okay,

462
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 2: maybe I should, maybe I should try that. But you know,

463
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 2: for me, for a time, god, there's no way for

464
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 2: this not to sound like a weird, humble brag, but

465
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,439
Speaker 2: like I was getting work in the theater, and so

466
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 2: for me it was like, well, I here was what

467
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,719
Speaker 2: I was smart enough to know. I don't think I've

468
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 2: really talked about this too much on here. I knew

469
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 2: that moving or sorry, visiting Los Angeles for a pilot

470
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,880
Speaker 2: season was not for me, like the idea of well,

471
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 2: I'll just go out for a couple of months and

472
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 2: see what happens. And maybe it's my personality type. It's like, no, no,

473
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 2: if I'm in, I need to be in like I

474
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 2: need to be in. You know, when I finally had

475
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 2: to turn down theater work because I was like, Okay,

476
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 2: I'm going to try this, and I said I'm going

477
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 2: to give it a year, but even in my head,

478
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 2: I think I was like, I think like eighteen months,

479
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 2: like it's probably more realistic, like I'm going to do this.

480
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 2: But before that, I mean, I did a couple of

481
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,160
Speaker 2: commercials and you know, there was a movie that came

482
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 2: through Minnesota when I was there and was in that,

483
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 2: but nothing really And it sounds for you as well.

484
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 2: I mean, you were on Broadway, you were doing major

485
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 2: shows at Oregon Shakespeare and et cetera, et cetera, before

486
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 2: you were ever on television at all.

487
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, totally. At the Oregon Shakespeare Festival, we would

488
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 1: pool our money together and bring in casting directors in

489
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 1: LA and various other regional theaters. But the big you know,

490
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: the big, sort of scary one was when we'd bring

491
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: people from Los Angeles and sometimes they teach us, they

492
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: give us little workshops, and I remember one casting person,

493
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 1: I think it was definitely an acting coach as well,

494
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: gave us a little on camera workshop and first it

495
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 1: was this is gonna sound humble braggy too, I guess.

496
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 1: But the first the first note I got was it

497
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: was sort of to the the rest of the class,

498
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: you're a natural, isn't he a natural? And it was

499
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 1: a very strange thing where none, no one nodded an agreement.

500
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: I was like, thanks, guys, and then she said, the

501
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: only problem is you don't know how to make choices.

502
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: You don't know how to do it. Like you're comfortable,

503
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,479
Speaker 1: but you're not acting, you're not creating anything. And so

504
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: I went from feeling like, oh, this is great, I'm

505
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: a natural, so I'm going to be a huge star

506
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: and you are going to make me one, and then

507
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: know you have so much to learn and you don't

508
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 1: know what the fuck you're doing right, So that was

509
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: it was a buoying thing in a sense in a

510
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:08,959
Speaker 1: lot of the lean years. It was one of the

511
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: things that I remember hearing, Okay, but no, there's it

512
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,479
Speaker 1: because being being natural in front of a camera isn't easy.

513
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: It's not natural to everyone. So that was something that

514
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: I knew that was there. I just needed to know.

515
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: And then you'd get the note that theater actors always

516
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: get when they first start on camera. Be smaller, that's

517
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: too big, smaller, less, less, And so I would I

518
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: would do this and they're like, well not nothing. It

519
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: was like I understand. I spent a lot of years

520
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: grappling with that until just something turns like, oh, just

521
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: be right now, You're not you're not being natural, You're

522
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: just being natural if that makes sense.

523
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, absolutely, Well where were you?

524
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: Where were you doing theater when you made that?

525
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 2: So I was primarily doing the regional theater stuff. So

526
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 2: I was in I was based in Minneapolis and started

527
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 2: travel going around. But I see a number of theaters

528
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 2: on your on your resume there that I was at

529
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 2: as well at one time or another. Did some touring

530
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 2: shows and a little stuff in New York, but I

531
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 2: was never I was never based in New York like

532
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 2: you were, which you know, Look, that was something that

533
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 2: I never wanted again, sort of like the I'm not

534
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 2: going to just go out for three months for pilot season.

535
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 2: That New York life.

536
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 3: I love New York, but that is a different actors

537
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 3: life there that I.

538
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 2: Wasn't entirely comfortable with. But you know, look for you,

539
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 2: you're performing in large theater companies, and because you're in

540
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: New York, you start guest starring on oh, I don't know,

541
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 2: like the biggest shows in television, like The Sopranos, and

542
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 2: of course if you're in New York, Law and Order

543
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 2: and Gossip Girl and the Good Wife and all this stuff.

544
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 2: So your early experience is just being on set. Did

545
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 2: you learn a lot during that period of time? For me,

546
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 2: the big adjustment is less about the work and more

547
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 2: about what it means to go to and show up

548
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 2: to work on a set, which is so different.

549
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean before I did any of those, Just

550
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: to go back even further, my first year or so

551
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: in New York, I was I was doing background work. Okay,

552
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: well we were called extras then, which is.

553
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 2: Not yeah, it's not that.

554
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,479
Speaker 1: Yeah. Two things were good about that for me. We

555
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 1: had dirt cheap rent. That was like getting a space grant,

556
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,719
Speaker 1: you know, like she wasn't the landlord wasn't giving us

557
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: money but she was charging us so little that we

558
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: could do things like I could work, you get one

559
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: hundred bucks to extra one day, and that my two

560
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: of those would cover my rent for our rent, my

561
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: wife and me for the week. I met a lot

562
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: of people sitting around in the back room getting to

563
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: know the lay of the land of New York. And

564
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 1: I got to watch how the you know, how the

565
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: principles behave and how what what hitting your mark means?

566
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: What the fact that, oh you do a master shot,

567
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: you say, okay, interesting and then close ups and tighter

568
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: and tighter and then over the shoulder, and what it's

569
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: dirty if you're getting a bit of the person over

570
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: the shoulder and it's clean. And so when I finally

571
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: did get on the sopranos from my one line.

572
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 2: I did, it was one more than me. That's one

573
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 2: more than me, and that's a that's a career regret there.

574
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 2: So there you go.

575
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I knew, you know, I I at least knew,

576
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: Oh this is gonna be coming. Oh that's what this is.

577
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: I had a lot to learn. I remember my first

578
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: big Law and Order thing. It's my second time it

579
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: was on Law and Order, but my first with a

580
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: real scene where I was the focal point of the

581
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: scene and I just kept flubbing something or not quite

582
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: doing what the director wanted, and I was getting really

583
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: oh god, fuck.

584
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 2: Got shit.

585
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: And the director actually came out and he was like,

586
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: hey man, we're a big time TV show, We've got

587
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 1: lots of film. Don't worry. We got this. And he

588
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 1: went back and I was first I was embarrassed, and

589
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 1: then I was like, that was so nice, and the

590
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: next take was perfect, you know, right, of course, it

591
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,359
Speaker 1: was a long time before I had any major I'm

592
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: the tortoise man, you know, and I like, embrace your tortoise.

593
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 1: If it's slow for you, embrace it. It's it doesn't mean

594
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 1: you're not going to get there. I think that slow

595
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: journey kept me humble. Certainly there was nothing to not

596
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 1: be humble about. But I was proud that I was

597
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: making a living, partially because of that cheap rent, but

598
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: I was proud that I was making a living doing

599
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 1: small parts, doing off off off off Broadway theater for

600
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,720
Speaker 1: years before I got the more quote unquote legitimate stuff.

601
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 2: Well, you finally got a big break getting a recurring

602
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 2: role at On at the time, an enormous show in television,

603
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,760
Speaker 2: A House of Cards. Do you remember how that How

604
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:12,760
Speaker 2: you finally landed that one?

605
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd been in a number of times the casting

606
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: director during my tortoise phase. There were a number of

607
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: independent casting directors, all women actually, who kept bringing me

608
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 1: in for auditions and I would often get callbacks. But

609
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 1: as my manager said at the time, the fact that

610
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 1: they keep bringing you in even though you haven't booked,

611
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: they're calling you back. These are essentially callbacks because the

612
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 1: casting director is going to keep putting you in front

613
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: of these people. They're going to advocate for you at

614
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,839
Speaker 1: some point and that's when the breakthrough will happen. And

615
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 1: that is what happened. And this particular casting director had

616
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 1: brought me in a number of times and it was

617
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 1: a dummy script, so I didn't know what the character was,

618
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:54,919
Speaker 1: I didn't know who I was going to be working with.

619
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 1: And it was great though. I was just like, well,

620
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 1: this is obviously nothing in the in the in the show,

621
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 1: but I want to do that show. I should I

622
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,720
Speaker 1: think I might have kept it. But a great seed

623
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: for some for some film. But the the type of relationship,

624
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 1: the emotional connection between the two characters mirrored the relationship

625
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: that I was going to have once I got the

626
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 1: part with Michael Kelly as his brother who played Gary

627
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 1: Stamper or Doug Stamper. I was Gary or one or

628
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: the other. Yeah, it was, it was, it was. It

629
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,760
Speaker 1: was great, you know it. I only worked with Michael Kelly,

630
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 1: who is the nicest guy in show business, and he's brilliant,

631
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 1: and it was. Yeah. The first time I traveled somewhere

632
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 1: repeatedly and put up in the same place, the same

633
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: teamster driving me to set, it was like, Oh, there's

634
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 1: there can be continuity in this business. Yes, you know.

635
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,360
Speaker 1: It's like and I would go back my fifth time

636
00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: down at the at the Marriotte on the waterfront or

637
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: whatever it was, sitting in the same spot at the bar.

638
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 1: I knew what I wanted to eat. I knew I

639
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 1: wanted that wine, and then I was going to go

640
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,240
Speaker 1: to bed and I don't It's just you were talking

641
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 1: about the I think you were alluding to some of

642
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: the mundane aspects of life. Being on set. Learning how

643
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 1: to be on set, learning how to be on location

644
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 1: is just as important as learning how to create a

645
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: character really right continuity, and it was my first taste

646
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: of Oh.

647
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 2: I like this, Yeah, that's that's really cool that there

648
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 2: is something. Well, you also feel like you I'm not

649
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 2: saying like you have made it like you're a big

650
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 2: star or anything like that, but like you're actually working

651
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 2: almost like like an employee. I don't even know if

652
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 2: that makes sense, like as opposed to a contractor like

653
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 2: what you talked about, like, oh, I'm going to the

654
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 2: same spot. I'm going I know them, they know me.

655
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 2: Being a guest star is really hard. I mean that.

656
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 2: The joke I always make is you're showing up expecting

657
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:06,320
Speaker 2: to in some cases, you know, be the central figure

658
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 2: in a scene or in an episode or whatever, and

659
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 2: you don't know where the bathroom is. Like this is

660
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 2: like they're like exterior, complicated things that people don't think about.

661
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 2: But yes, that like I have a relationship with you know, Tim,

662
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 2: who is the transportation guy who drives me and helps

663
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 2: me get here and there, and if I have an issue,

664
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 2: I call him all of those things. It's uh, yeah,

665
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 2: it's it's cool.

666
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: And being and having relationships with the pas, you know,

667
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 1: because like where's the bathroom? If you have to go

668
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 1: to the bathroom, you have to let someone know it's

669
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 1: like I'm going ten, one hundred or you know, or

670
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 1: the other. But I never gave it to the other

671
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 1: and you don't really know who to tell. And also

672
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:52,879
Speaker 1: that if you're meeting them for the first time, you're

673
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 1: telling this total stranger, this young kid, I gotta go pee,

674
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: and it's like it's nice, Yeah, I have. I had

675
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 1: a taste of a bigger taste when I did The Americans,

676
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 1: but it was on Billions actually, where we were there

677
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 1: for you know, almost every episode for seven seasons, and

678
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 1: that continuity. I think that experience is what made me

679
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 1: finally realize that I love film acting or screen acting

680
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: as much as I love theater. Because it was the

681
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 1: first time that that family that that always happens during

682
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 1: a play, you know, during the process. So the first

683
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: time that continuity, that family really congealed, and I think

684
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 1: that's what got me into it in the first place.

685
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 1: Is like hanging around with other nerds you wanted to

686
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: play pretend, you know, it's those like minded souls and

687
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:48,760
Speaker 1: U and I finally found that in in this group.

688
00:39:48,920 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 3: So well, I want to talk obviously about Dollar Bill.

689
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 3: By the way, when the email started coming around that

690
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 3: I was going to talk to you. I think we

691
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:20,720
Speaker 3: had like seven people on the team. It's just yelling

692
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 3: dollar Bill with an exclamation point, But I do want

693
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 3: to talk about the Americans. You played pastor Tim there

694
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:34,359
Speaker 3: for four seasons. That then becomes, you know, before Billions,

695
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 3: your most sort of significant role and time working on

696
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,839
Speaker 3: and you had a wig, which apparently got a lot

697
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 3: of attention.

698
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 2: On that show. Was this a choice that you made?

699
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 3: Oh no, no, no, no, no.

700
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 1: I am assuming they weren't going to go with my

701
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 1: bald pace because at the time, in the mid eighties,

702
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 1: probably you know, bald white guys were white supremacists. Essentially,

703
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:05,320
Speaker 1: shaved head headed guys were essentially unless they were military.

704
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 1: It was not normal at that period of time.

705
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 2: So yeah, we got a.

706
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: Wig, and hilariously, apparently the wig master did not know

707
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 1: they had a wig master. They had a show with

708
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: a wig master. I love that man. The wig Master

709
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 1: did not know I was going to be on for

710
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:26,760
Speaker 1: more than one episode, so she wasn't taking care, she

711
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:28,720
Speaker 1: wasn't taking great pains to make sure it was something

712
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: that was sustainable. And that was when they all put

713
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 1: that We put multiple wigs on me. When they put

714
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 1: that one on everybody laughed because it was so goofy,

715
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 1: including me because it was a goofy. And we used

716
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 1: that one and then I'm back and I'm back in

717
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 1: the back for the next season and the next season,

718
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: and I think it did like fifty episodes or something,

719
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,399
Speaker 1: and yeah, it was a huge pain of the ass.

720
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 1: They had to remake it too. They had to create

721
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 1: a new one because the one wasn't made for that

722
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 1: type of repeated use. Right, thought, oh great, I'm going

723
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 1: to get a great wig now because they can remake

724
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:04,439
Speaker 1: it a new hairstyle, and they made it the same

725
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: fucking things red. It had an entire thread after my

726
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 1: first appearance about whether or not I was a pedophile

727
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 1: because of the wig, literally because of the wig.

728
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 2: Oh you think it was about the wig? Yeah, I uh,

729
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 2: that's that's that's incredible. Now I do have to ask you, Yeah,

730
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:34,240
Speaker 2: you made a choice at some point to shave. Oh yeah,

731
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 2: well because I haven't. By the way, I don't know

732
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 2: if you've known, I haven't.

733
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 1: But you yours looks great. My I my hair was

734
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 1: very thick everywhere except for where it wasn't, and where

735
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,359
Speaker 1: it wasn't it was gone. You know, people, some people thin.

736
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 1: I didn't thin. It was like literally like somebody was

737
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,320
Speaker 1: golfing on top of my head and took out a divot.

738
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: It was just like this, and my hair was very

739
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:00,360
Speaker 1: dark and my skin is very pale also.

740
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 2: It just was on.

741
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 1: And so we were actually over at a friend's house

742
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,760
Speaker 1: having dinner and a lot of wine, and he shaved.

743
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:13,479
Speaker 1: He had his own little shaving contraption before we left.

744
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 1: We shaved each other's heads and that and from then on,

745
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 1: yeah for you. Yeah, And I did go all the

746
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 1: way to the skin. At first I had about half

747
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 1: an inch. But then I started booking. I was I

748
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 1: was always booking theater, but I started booking on TV

749
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 1: more and it was kind of another good lesson don't

750
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 1: fight it. And I oh, and I also went to

751
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 1: a not a real gang guy, but the hair whatever,

752
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: the big hair transplant place is okay, and met with

753
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 1: somebody who was explaining the procedure and how they and

754
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: they used the word harvest the hair out of the

755
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 1: back of your head and plant and look how good

756
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 1: it is. And then they said, well, then in you know,

757
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 1: five ten years, you're going to have to do more

758
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 1: because you keep losing your hair, which had never occurred

759
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 1: to me. It wasn't one harvesting were gonna this was

760
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 1: multiple harvests, multiple harvests, So it didn't.

761
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 2: So you just said no, I just said no.

762
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 1: Screwt.

763
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna shave God. God. I've definitely not revealed this.

764
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 2: I don't know why I keep telling people that haven't

765
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 2: revealed it. They either know I haven't or they don't.

766
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 1: I haven't thought about the trustworthy face.

767
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,839
Speaker 2: I've thought about it. I've thought, I've thought about it.

768
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 2: Do it.

769
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 1: I don't know it'll come back. I mean that part maybe,

770
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 1: maybe that part will maybe. I think I got a

771
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 1: great shaped head. So you what, I think you have

772
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 1: a great shaped head?

773
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 2: Do you you can have it?

774
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 3: I do?

775
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. You know what,

776
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 2: Here's what I'm gonna do. If I know myself, I'm

777
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 2: gonna think about it in another four or five years.

778
00:44:54,640 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 2: Uh dollar Bill Dollar Bill Sterns the cheapest millionaire in America.

779
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 2: How did you get it? Audition?

780
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I auditioned for the pilot. Ady Kaufman, a casting

781
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 1: director in New York who does a lot of pilots.

782
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: I went in for a different role. The Breakdown said

783
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 1: it described certain characters as potential recurring or co stars

784
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 1: or guest stars. And I had a very good audition.

785
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: I knew the audition went well. The word the feedback

786
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: was that they loved the audition, but they were going

787
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:27,879
Speaker 1: with a different guy for that role. Would you come

788
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 1: back and read this other character named Dollar Bill? And

789
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 1: in the breakdown it just said co star. I think

790
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: it was three lines, not even potential with the star.

791
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: I think, so, yeah, yeah, I'm almost positive. And this

792
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 1: was for the pilot, and I was not doing co

793
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 1: star roles anymore. I wasn't doing just functionary roles. I

794
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 1: didn't want. I wanted something that had I was even

795
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:50,919
Speaker 1: going to do a guest star. I was trying to

796
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 1: push to just do something that that was integral to

797
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 1: the plot, and this wasn't at the time. This is

798
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: what I read on the page. So I said no, passed,

799
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 1: And then over the weekend I was thinking about it,

800
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 1: and I was like, don a Bill, Well, they've they've

801
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 1: put some thought into that's a funny nickname, and he's

802
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 1: described as the cheapest billionaire in America. It's like, this

803
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 1: is this is kind of am I making a mistake.

804
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 1: And then I was like, oh, my god, Damian Lewis

805
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: and Paul G.

806
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 2: Madier in it.

807
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: I'm like, god, these guys did rounders. Holy shit. I

808
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 1: think I made a mistake. And it was the pilot.

809
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 1: You know, you you if it gets picked up and

810
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 1: it's something it's not going to develop into something more

811
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 1: than you could, you could back out. And so I

812
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:32,359
Speaker 1: called them the morning on Monday morning and said, can

813
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 1: you still get me in? And they said, yeah, if

814
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 1: you can be there in three hours, yes, So I

815
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 1: went in and did the audition and I got it,

816
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: and my god, that would have been the biggest mistake

817
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:46,919
Speaker 1: of my life. I think about how close I came

818
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 1: to screwing that up. Anyway, So, yeah, it was. It

819
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 1: was an audition and it started very small, but little

820
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: hints of things. From the beginning, there were little, little

821
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,240
Speaker 1: moments that were fun. But it wasn't until late season

822
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 1: one that I started getting some real meaty stuff. I

823
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 1: didn't become a series regular until season three, actually three. Yeah,

824
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 1: I was recurring, and I think I was in literally

825
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: every episode until then. But yeah, and I was surprised

826
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 1: because that laid into a run. I wouldn't have expected

827
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:23,479
Speaker 1: to get that offer that bump, but I was glad

828
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 1: I did.

829
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:28,799
Speaker 2: That was fun. Did you do any specific research in

830
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:32,399
Speaker 2: terms of finance or anything.

831
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 1: No, No, because I'm a lazy actor. Now. The character

832
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:43,320
Speaker 1: was so specifically written, and particularly early on, I didn't

833
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 1: have a ton of exposition or a ton of big

834
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 1: descriptive well that's what his exposition is. I had small interactions,

835
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:54,879
Speaker 1: and we did have a guy on set who had

836
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:58,240
Speaker 1: been in the business before, and you could ask him anything.

837
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 1: You could ask Brian and David, the show owners any thing.

838
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,439
Speaker 1: He even this other guy a couple times have be like, Kelly,

839
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: do you know what you just said? I was like yeah,

840
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 1: and he's like, mm no, this is what you mean.

841
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 1: And so we had we had guardrails, and I knew

842
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 1: I know less about finance than probably ninety percent of

843
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 1: the people listening to this podcast, right, But I learned

844
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 1: for the day and then it was out of my

845
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 1: head again.

846
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 2: Right. You've talked in the past about working physically on

847
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 2: Dollar Bill, and that's something that's always really important to me.

848
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 2: So I'm fascinated on a personal level about that. Is

849
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 2: this something that you do for all of your characters

850
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 2: you believe or was there something about him that you

851
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 2: you felt like you needed something. There are I mean,

852
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 2: to a certain extent, on every character. There's you know,

853
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 2: there's some gestures or there's some ways of caring yourself

854
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 2: or sitting or something that you can if you can

855
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 2: key into it helps launch you. It's oh, set a

856
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 2: crack a code.

857
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 1: With dollar Bill. It was a little more acute, just

858
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 1: because it seems so obvious. It's like, well, he never

859
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,440
Speaker 1: stands with his feet together, he never sits with his

860
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 1: knees together. He's he's a man. He takes up space

861
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 1: because he can. He's a bit of a bully. He's

862
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 1: a blunt instrument. He does that when he speaks, at

863
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 1: least initially, it's there's a there's an economy. That just

864
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 1: felt like he was a blunt instrument. The shaved head

865
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:35,720
Speaker 1: helped that obviously. So yeah, I think there was a strut,

866
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,319
Speaker 1: there was a taking up space wherever he was, a

867
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 1: lot of cross crossed arms, a lot of scowling, a

868
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: lot of eye rolling at people he thinks are less

869
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,799
Speaker 1: cool than he is. Yeah, that was that. That was

870
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: sort of it. Just it felt obvious. There's a scene

871
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:55,720
Speaker 1: where Spiros and I have couple's therapy in Wendy's office

872
00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:01,280
Speaker 1: and Steve Knkan, who plays Spirosho's a great guy despite

873
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 1: the character replays. And I sat on our couch. We

874
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 1: just we both immediately on one end or the other.

875
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 1: He crossed his legs and arms in a very prim

876
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,720
Speaker 1: way as Spiros would and I just sort of lounged

877
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 1: out and took up half the couch. And the director

878
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 1: was going to work with us and block figure out

879
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 1: what the blocking of the scene was. And he was like, oh,

880
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 1: well there it is all right, bring the crew. And

881
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: because sometimes the character tells you what it wants, you know.

882
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, did you have some trigger? And I ask you

883
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 2: because I did with the role that I played for

884
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 2: a long time. Something with your jaw.

885
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:50,760
Speaker 1: I would come home sometimes with my jaw aching because

886
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 1: it was a yeah, he was a jaw jutter. I

887
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 1: don't think I did that consciously. I think that just

888
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:59,360
Speaker 1: came with the rest of it. Yeah, yeah, it was.

889
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 1: I remember going back and looking and was like, oh, yeah,

890
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 1: the jaws way out there, but yeah it would or

891
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 1: my chin is way out there, but my jaw would

892
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 1: hurt at the end of some of the days. Yeah,

893
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 1: well you said that, you're you worked that way too.

894
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,800
Speaker 2: You like to work with the physicality as well, Yeah,

895
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:24,280
Speaker 2: for sure. I mean it's interesting you you talked about,

896
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,879
Speaker 2: you know, just taking up a lot of space, and

897
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:32,280
Speaker 2: my thought always with Kevin was he was not aware

898
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:36,799
Speaker 2: of his size, so it was more you know, and

899
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 2: for me also, there was no pivoting. Kevin's hips did

900
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:45,879
Speaker 2: not pivot, nor did his really his head, so if

901
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:49,280
Speaker 2: he had to turn to the right, his entire body

902
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 2: would turn like the Titanic or something as opposed to

903
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 2: any sort of nimble looking over the shoulder like that

904
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 2: didn't happen very often, or at least that was sort

905
00:51:59,239 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 2: of the thought.

906
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:04,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's brilliant, and honestly, like little little things like

907
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,720
Speaker 1: that can unlock so much for you in the rest

908
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 1: of the run of a show. That's great.

909
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 2: I like that. Recently, you have popped up again with

910
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 2: your friend Paul Giamatti in the Holdovers. Now was this

911
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 2: did you guys work this out together or was this

912
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:23,480
Speaker 2: totally random?

913
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 1: It was totally random, although come on what I had

914
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: auditioned for. Yeah, I saw so I got the audition,

915
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 1: and I saw that I saw his name attached to

916
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 1: the to the breakdown, and I was auditioning initially for

917
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 1: The Headmaster, which has three set of media scenes, and

918
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 1: I didn't. I guess. I think I texted him and

919
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 1: said something about there's a line in there where he

920
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 1: calls me something about penis breath or something like that

921
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 1: or whatever it is, or it says, I hope you

922
00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:00,439
Speaker 1: get penis cancer something like that, okay, And I wrote

923
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:03,760
Speaker 1: to him and I was like, I made some reference

924
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 1: to that that line, and he was like, oh, you're

925
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 1: gonna you're reading for the Park great, And then I

926
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 1: didn't get that, and they I got offered the part

927
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 1: that I ended up playing, and I have to admit

928
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 1: it's another example of almost fucking things up. When I

929
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 1: read the scene on the page, I was disappointed in

930
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 1: not getting three scenes in a film with Giamatti that

931
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 1: would have been fun. And I got this other scene

932
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:28,359
Speaker 1: it was gonna be with him, but it was about

933
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 1: a page and a half and it was just it

934
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:33,400
Speaker 1: didn't on the page. It didn't look like much, and

935
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 1: so I was really thinking of turning it down, and

936
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 1: Paul texted me and he was like, come on, come on,

937
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 1: hang out, it'll be fun. And then so I did

938
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 1: and it was great, and of course I should have

939
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:48,319
Speaker 1: taken it. I don't do a lot of movies. I

940
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 1: do a lot of TV. I don't do a lot

941
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 1: of movies. I love Alexander Payne. The script was brilliant.

942
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:55,239
Speaker 1: I got to work with my buddy. Didn't matter if

943
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:57,319
Speaker 1: it was small, it was. It was a great time

944
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,879
Speaker 1: and the scene ended up being I think, lovely. So yeah,

945
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 1: there have been a handful of times in my career

946
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:06,840
Speaker 1: in life where I'm really glad I got out of

947
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 1: my own way. He was brilliant and that wasn't.

948
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:17,720
Speaker 2: He He was good, just so good. Well, this role,

949
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:23,239
Speaker 2: I assume, based on everything that I have heard, is

950
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:28,320
Speaker 2: not just a small little scene coming out very soon.

951
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:33,479
Speaker 2: New show for you clipped get it because it's about

952
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 2: the Clippers. I know you're a big NBA fan as am.

953
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:44,520
Speaker 2: I was that particularly make you. By the way, it's

954
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 2: about the Donald Sterling mess. There was a thirty for

955
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:52,799
Speaker 2: thirty on that called The Sterling Affairs the podcast, and

956
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:56,360
Speaker 2: now this is that story. It's you, it's Ed O'Neil,

957
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 2: Laurence Fishburn, Jackie Weaver. Were you excited about this because

958
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 2: you were such a big fan of the NBA.

959
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, I was. Literally we were just finishing an

960
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 1: episode of Winning Time, and I turned to my.

961
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 2: Wife, Oh yes, I was going to say that, and.

962
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:18,319
Speaker 1: I said, I want to get my basketball show. And

963
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:22,759
Speaker 1: two weeks later I had the audition for this. And

964
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 1: now that I know I have that sort of manifestation power,

965
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 1: you have to be careful how I wield this power.

966
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 1: So anyone just wants to stay in my good graces,

967
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 1: it's fifty bucks. So yeah, I got. I was absolutely thrilled.

968
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:44,720
Speaker 1: And the audition was this one really big scene between

969
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 1: my character and Elgin Baylor, so such a delicious, like

970
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:51,399
Speaker 1: meaty scene, which I was happy to see was kept

971
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:55,799
Speaker 1: intact for the shooting script and the final cut of

972
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:58,799
Speaker 1: the episode. Actually it was about twice as long in

973
00:55:58,840 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 1: real life.

974
00:55:59,320 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 2: But it was.

975
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did. The writing was so good, the cast

976
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 1: was so great. I've I've literally I've had fun on

977
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:10,839
Speaker 1: a lot of shows. I've never had more fun than

978
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:14,960
Speaker 1: working on this project. Oh wow, everything about it. It

979
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 1: was fun to live in l A again for a

980
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 1: little while, like half a block from the Paramount Studio

981
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 1: where I had literally one thousand rejections, And you know,

982
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 1: working with Ed a lot. He's I know, people know

983
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 1: he's he's a really good actor. I think he's an

984
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:34,360
Speaker 1: he's underrated. I don't think people know how great he

985
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:38,799
Speaker 1: really is because he makes it look effortless. Yeah, he's

986
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 1: so good in this. And and the other person I

987
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 1: worked with the most was was Lawrence Fishburne, who's been

988
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:47,719
Speaker 1: an acting idol of mine for forever. So I had

989
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 1: I was like a kid in a candy store and

990
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:50,560
Speaker 1: I got I had a wig.

991
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:54,319
Speaker 2: Hey, another wig.

992
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 1: Significantly less peto wig.

993
00:56:56,520 --> 00:57:01,080
Speaker 2: I will, I will. I am so excited to see it.

994
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 2: I had the creator of Winning Time on here on

995
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:07,720
Speaker 2: the podcast before. I was a big fan of that show.

996
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm the whole story, which I won't spoil

997
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:14,919
Speaker 2: it for those of you who don't who haven't read

998
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 2: the news or know what we're talking about here. It's

999
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:22,560
Speaker 2: a fascinating story that goes across and I haven't seen it,

1000
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:26,000
Speaker 2: by the way, this is just the story itself that

1001
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:30,680
Speaker 2: deals with all sorts of social issues and well and

1002
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 2: basketball and the NBA and the Clippers franchise. It's a

1003
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 2: it's a great story. I'm I'm glad that you're so

1004
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 2: excited about it.

1005
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really excited. And I did get to see

1006
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:44,720
Speaker 1: the episodes, and you know, when you when you have

1007
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 1: so much fun on a gig, you're almost afraid to

1008
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 1: watch it because you have such high hopes and you're

1009
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 1: afraid it's not going to live up. And I'm I'm

1010
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:55,440
Speaker 1: thrilled with how it came out. I'm just I'm thrilled.

1011
00:57:55,560 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 1: Gina Welsh is the great showrunner and writer, and I

1012
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:04,040
Speaker 1: think she's just along with the directors, it's really created

1013
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 1: something special. I'm I'm thrilled with it. I'm thrilled, and

1014
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:09,240
Speaker 1: I watched it a second time, which I don't usually do,

1015
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:10,120
Speaker 1: and things I'm.

1016
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 2: In well that that is so so awesome. This week,

1017
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:20,959
Speaker 2: in fact, June the fourth, it premieres. Everybody check it out.

1018
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 2: I will be watching for sure. Kelly, thank you so

1019
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 2: much for joining me. You're a delight. I hope we

1020
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 2: work together sometimes. You're an interesting guy.

1021
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:33,440
Speaker 1: I was just saying the same thing, not that I

1022
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:35,000
Speaker 1: was an interesting guy that I would like. I was

1023
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 1: thinking the same thing that I'd like to I'd like

1024
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:40,439
Speaker 1: to work with you very very much. I'm a huge fan. Yeah,

1025
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 1: I watched every episode of that of your show, like twice.

1026
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 1: Well stuff well, and it was a kid and it

1027
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:51,920
Speaker 1: really was about that ensemble. Ensemble was what made it.

1028
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 1: That chemistry was what made that show better than just a.

1029
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 2: Really good comedy.

1030
00:58:57,040 --> 00:58:58,800
Speaker 1: You know, it's one of the Pantheon shows.

1031
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, thank you so much. I really appreciate that,

1032
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:04,480
Speaker 2: and I appreciate you coming on here talking to me.

1033
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:08,040
Speaker 2: You know, people love to hate that piece of shit

1034
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:10,280
Speaker 2: Dollar Bill, so I know people are going to be

1035
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:15,280
Speaker 2: excited to hear from from you, and uh to watch Clipped.

1036
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:22,640
Speaker 2: It's it's Roser, Roser Junior and Roser okay who of

1037
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 2: course Donald Sterling's right hand man in the thick of things.

1038
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:31,520
Speaker 2: Congratulations on the success and good luck with the show,

1039
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 2: and I'll send you my review when I'm done.

1040
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:36,080
Speaker 1: Thank you please, point by point.

1041
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:51,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, thank you Kelly for all of that. That

1042
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:54,920
Speaker 2: was really really a lot of fun. Listeners, be sure

1043
00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 2: to watch Clipped. It premieres today. If you're listening when

1044
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:03,440
Speaker 2: this episode premieres June the fourth on Hulu, I know

1045
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:07,320
Speaker 2: that I will be tuning in. Speaking of tuning in,

1046
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:09,840
Speaker 2: don't forget to tune in next week right here, same

1047
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:14,400
Speaker 2: Bat channel, same Bat time for another dose of me

1048
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:21,040
Speaker 2: with another fantastic guest. Until then, have a spectacular Week

1049
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 2: Off the Beat is hosted and executive produced by me

1050
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:36,160
Speaker 2: Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Ling Lee. Our senior

1051
01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:40,320
Speaker 2: producer is Diego Tapia. Our producers are Liz Hayes, Hannah

1052
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:45,120
Speaker 2: Harris and Emily Carr. Our talent producer is Ryan Papa Zachary,

1053
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:49,160
Speaker 2: and our intern is Ali Amir Sahem. Our theme song

1054
01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:53,760
Speaker 2: Bubble and Squeak, performed by the one and only Creed Bratton,