1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: today's best minds and among a Latino independence. Trump's approval 4 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: rating has dropped from forty three percent in February. 5 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 2: To twenty nine percent in May. I wonder what happened. 6 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 2: We have such a great show for you today. 7 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: The Washington Post own Dana Milbank stops by to talk 8 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: to us about Republicans turning the tide against Trump's big, 9 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: beautiful bill. Then we'll talk to Mark Dunkleman about his 10 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:40,160 Speaker 1: new book, Why Nothing Works, Who Killed Progress and how 11 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: to bring it back? 12 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 3: But first of the news, Somalie the girls are fighting Elon. 13 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 3: He's tweeting at how bad Trump's signature bill is and 14 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 3: saying it's a disgusting abomination. 15 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 2: It was only a matter of time. 16 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 4: Now. 17 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: I do want to point out he's not saying it's 18 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: a disgusting abomination because he's against cut snap benefits for 19 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: poor children. He's not saying it's a disgusting abomination because 20 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: he is against this idea that a seven year old, 21 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 1: that if you are the parent of a seven year old, 22 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: you have to work eighty hours a week. Okay, that 23 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: is not what This is the work requirements for Medicaid, right, 24 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,040 Speaker 1: you have to work to get emergency healthcare, even if 25 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: you have a seven year old child. 26 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 2: So I don't know who is going to do that childcare. There. 27 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 2: He's not complaining that. 28 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: You know, there will be several states in which twenty 29 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: five percent of all children will be affected by these cuts. No, 30 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: he's not talking about that. He's talking about the fact 31 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:41,919 Speaker 1: that it grows the deficit. You know why it grows 32 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: the deficit? Can you guess why, Jesse Kennon? 33 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 3: Because it's really stupid and cuts Texas for the rich. 34 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: It does a couple of things. It's the purest distillation 35 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: of MAGA. So it cuts taxes for the keeps this 36 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: stupid tax cut from expiring. And then it does lots 37 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: of crazy Trump stuff like no taxes on tips. How 38 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: the fuck you even going to do that, man, No 39 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,839 Speaker 1: taxes on tips. Everything's going to become a tip. It's 40 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 1: basically like they put someone in charge of everything who 41 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: doesn't know how to do anything, and here we have 42 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: a bill. The Congressional Budget Office, nonpartisan independent analysts have 43 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: projected the Trump's bill, which extends the twenty seventeen tax 44 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:32,399 Speaker 1: cuts would add between two point three and five trillion 45 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: dollars to the deficit in the next ten years. By 46 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: the way, I want to point out the only people 47 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: who are standing up to Trump or Elon mush the 48 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: world's richest man who used to be a Trump megadonor 49 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: and the very far right, you know, the Rand Paul crew. 50 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: Those guys have complained, but everyone else in the Republican 51 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 1: Party is going along with it. 52 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 3: Somali Michael Temaski at The New Republic a bold idea 53 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 3: that many of us Burnie bros. Have been very on 54 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 3: board for for decades. 55 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it really yes, Yes, I know your pomatic 56 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: to stick. 57 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 2: It in there, right, Okay, so yes. 58 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: Mike Tamaski points out what I think all of us 59 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: really should be talking about, which is that this is actually, 60 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: believe it or not, all they need to do is 61 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: raise taxes on very very rich people, and that Republicans 62 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: have brilliantly convinced people that somehow that is not the 63 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: answer to the problem. The answer to the problem is 64 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: raised taxes on very very rich people. 65 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 2: Thank you, You're welcome. 66 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: That's it. That it was a very smart article and 67 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: He's right, and that's it. 68 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 3: So I think that this is truly one of those 69 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 3: things that we saw coming with Project twenty twenty five, 70 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 3: and we're like, oh, this is going to be the 71 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 3: whole areas part, which is federal employees must now write 72 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 3: essays praising Trump's policies. I really really can't wait to 73 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 3: see what happens when they go to get that from 74 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 3: chat GPT and what it spits out. 75 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. 76 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: You know, many people are saying that this is all 77 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 1: very stupid. Now, look, this is all this North Korea 78 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:18,799 Speaker 1: style stuff, right, like how you will talk about, dear leader. 79 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: This is like the ideological stuff. And by the way, 80 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: it's so much of it is from Project twenty twenty five. 81 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: I'm glad you talked about this because you and I 82 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: have done so much on Project twenty twenty five. This 83 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 1: is this ideological purity stuff which comes from the Office 84 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,039 Speaker 1: of You know, remember with twenty twenty five, they the 85 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 1: whole idea was to create a federal government that does 86 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 1: Trump's bidding, that does the kind that ideologically aligns with 87 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 1: trump Ism. And you know, this is what this is, 88 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 1: the ideological alignment to a trump Ism. 89 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, my personal favorite because we have the questions is 90 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 3: number three, how would you help as the president's executive 91 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 3: orders and policy priorities of this role. I really can't 92 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 3: wait to see how chat shept answers that I might 93 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 3: type it after this and send it to the group chat. 94 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: It reminds me so much of all of the other 95 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,359 Speaker 1: things that Elon tried to do. Remember the like five 96 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 1: things you do in a day email and that went 97 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: to like members is dependent on you know, people who 98 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: work in national security tell us five things you do 99 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 1: in a day. It's that same kind of idea that like, 100 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 1: federal employees are somehow getting some kind of freebie from 101 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: the federal government as opposed to they're just workers who 102 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 1: could actually make more money in the private sector. 103 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, totally well, speaking of government and competence, as 104 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 3: we know, Republicans love to prove that government doesn't work 105 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 3: by hiring well totally inept people for jobs. And one 106 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 3: job we don't want topt people in is FEMA chief 107 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 3: since those are very big problems that need very big 108 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 3: answers with a lot of improvisation, and FEMA Administrator David 109 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 3: Richardson said that he didn't know there was such thing 110 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:06,359 Speaker 3: as hurricane sees it twitch. 111 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 1: Oh boy, oh, what are we doing your team? Look, 112 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: they have put together an insane group. 113 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 2: I don't know. 114 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: Look, you've elevated people who really only care about MAGA 115 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 1: and nothing else, and you've put those people in jobs. 116 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: A lot of them are not necessarily set up for 117 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: those jobs. And then you find that they, you know, 118 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: do things like they don't know about hurricane season. 119 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 2: Maybe he was kidding, maybe he wasn't kidding. 120 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: Whatever it is, it's not great. Dana Milbank is a 121 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: columnist at The Washington Post and the author of Fools 122 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: on the Hill, The Hoolians, Saboteurs, Conspiracy Theorists who burned 123 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 1: down the House. 124 00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 2: Welcome to Fast Politics, Dana Milbank, Molly, to be back 125 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 2: with you, Where do we start? Donald Trump mad at 126 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 2: Michael Wolf. 127 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 5: He's got a lot of people to be mad at now, 128 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 5: and at top of the list is Elon Musk. 129 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: But why is Michael Wolf occupying any segment of Donald 130 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: Trump's brain? 131 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 5: Well, I mean, this is a dangerous path to go 132 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 5: down in terms of why it is anything at any 133 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 5: given You know, why is the president point sharing some 134 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 5: posts about Joe Biden being replaced by a robot? You know, 135 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 5: it's whatever is under his skin at the moment. I mean, 136 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 5: I think if we're looking in a global sense this week, 137 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 5: I think since the Taco moment, since he kept you know, 138 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 5: worried that he'd be seen as a chicken, he wants 139 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 5: to be as bullying as possible to as many people 140 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 5: as possible. So, you know, I guess that that would 141 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 5: be my pop psychology as he has to look extra pugnacious. 142 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: Let's talk about instead of pecho analyzing my man, let's 143 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: talk about the the Senate, which is now So there's 144 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: this House bill. It is a bill that has a 145 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: lot of pork. I want to talk about the judicial 146 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:11,239 Speaker 1: stuff that's snuck into the bill. 147 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 6: You know about this, right, you mean limiting the abilities. 148 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 2: Yes, let's talk about that. 149 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: So in the big beautiful bill, which is theoretically supposed 150 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: to be a bill which keeps the tax cut going 151 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: for very wealthy people and also does all sorts of 152 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: cuts to snap and medicaid and work with rioments, it. 153 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 2: Makes it harder to register and makes it harder to 154 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 2: stay on in. 155 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: All of that, and also grow somehow manages to grow 156 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,559 Speaker 1: the deficit, which is you know, this math is kind. 157 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 5: Of incredible by for a trillion dollars. 158 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: Right in that bill is this crazy little bit that 159 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: limits the power of judges to sue the administration in 160 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: the big beautiful bill. So can you just answer me this, 161 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: because as Donald Trump is working on this, right, Trump's 162 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: sweeping tax cut bill includes provision to weaken court powers. 163 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 2: Right, So this big beautiful bill, and he's. 164 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: Out there with Thoon trying to convince him to do it. 165 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: But doesn't the Senate Parliamentarian still exist or does she 166 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: only exist for Democrats exist. 167 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 5: But has been overridden repeatedly. But you're right about the 168 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 5: various things tucked in the inability to press contempt proceedings. 169 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 5: I think it limits standing in any case when people 170 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 5: are challenging the administration. Yeah, there's this provision restricting any 171 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 5: state from interfering in any way with artificial intelligence, making 172 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 5: any regulation. 173 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: Right, regulation, God forbid anyone wants to regulate guys, go 174 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 1: on anybody. 175 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 5: And now you even have Marjorie Taylor Greens thing tarn it. 176 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 5: I didn't know this was in it, and if they 177 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 5: don't take it out, I'm going to oppose the bill. 178 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 5: She's too late, too late, It's too late, Yes, there's 179 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 5: all kinds of and I'm sure we're going to continue 180 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 5: to find nasty things. 181 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 6: All along the way. 182 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 5: But you know, yes, all of those things are outrageous 183 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 5: in their own right. But you know, I think the 184 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 5: focus needs to be on six hundred billion dollars in cuts, 185 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,079 Speaker 5: although they're not calling in cuts to Medicaid and the. 186 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 2: SNAP, they're just adjustments. 187 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 5: Adjustments, So a lot of twenty nine year old men 188 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 5: on their couch playing video games. Mike Johnson seems to think, 189 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 5: But you know, the food stamps snap as they're called, 190 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 5: and all of these clean energy credits which are actually 191 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 5: benefiting people in Republican districts across the land. But you know, 192 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 5: there's this massive transfer of wealth, literally taking from the 193 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 5: poor and giving to the rich. 194 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 6: Even Elon Musk is now out there saying. 195 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 5: It is a disgusting abomination, not just any abomination, but 196 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 5: a disgusting one. 197 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: Well, so Elon Musk agrees with Rand Paul right that 198 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: in fact, this is the horseshoe there right right. Elon Musk, 199 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: he's criticizing this because he thinks cut more. 200 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 6: Right, he thinks it's pork field. 201 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 5: Of course, it is pork field in some ways, but 202 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,199 Speaker 5: it's also an extraordinary amount of cuts. I mean, the 203 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 5: reason is so expensive. I mean it does have, you know, 204 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 5: huge cuts to discretionary non defense spending, there's no question 205 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 5: about that, but it has even larger tax increases. So 206 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 5: that's why that's going on. 207 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 6: But you know, Musk is not in the best position. 208 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 5: I mean, I guess he's now trying to distance himself 209 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 5: as quickly as he can for this administration. But this 210 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 5: is the guy who said he was going to cut 211 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 5: two trillion dollars and they're due to be sending the 212 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 5: actual recisions package of all the things he cut in 213 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 5: that apparently it's nine billion dollars. So that's that's what 214 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 5: all of this was about, and it wound up costing 215 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 5: the government far more than that, just in terms of 216 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 5: lost efficiency. 217 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 2: They had to rehire all those people. 218 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: Elon Musk played government and he learned quickly, but not 219 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: as quickly as someone who actually would know what they 220 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: were doing. And I do think to want watch Elon 221 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: sort of percolate in real time. You know, he said 222 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: we're going to cut trillions of dollars and then he 223 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: gets in there. I mean, look, we don't really know 224 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: what Elon was doing in there, right, I mean besides 225 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,599 Speaker 1: like copying all our data. 226 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 5: Right and e merging everything on you know, all of 227 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 5: our bank records, our tax records, our medical records and 228 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 5: sharing them with his twenty something meter staffer. 229 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: So no, who are ideologically very right wing, one of 230 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: whom is called Big Roles. 231 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 5: So no, we don't know what's happened, or maybe maybe 232 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 5: we never we'll find out what's happened. 233 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,239 Speaker 6: The overall impact in terms. 234 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 5: Of the federal budget and the deficits will be negligible 235 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 5: from what he's done, mostly because it's all illegal. It 236 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 5: was done without input from Congress. That's why they're turning around. 237 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 5: They amount they're actually asking Congress to cut his poultry. 238 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 5: But the impact is huge in terms of the human cost, 239 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 5: not just in terms of the federal workers whose lives 240 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 5: have been disrupted or the you know kids in Africa 241 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 5: who can't get there aid to medicine now. But the 242 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 5: Post is reporting today on a whole bunch of you know, 243 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 5: other disruptions, including to social security, you know, things that 244 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 5: are popping up in many ways. They made the bureaucracy 245 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 5: worse than it was to start with. 246 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, that's true. The usaid. I mean, look, 247 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: you know it's that question of should the richest man 248 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: in the world be cutting food and medicine for the 249 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: poorest children in the world. I mean, you know that's 250 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,439 Speaker 1: the Bill Gates question, Like is that good? I mean, 251 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 1: I think it's bad. 252 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 6: You're really going out on a limb there. 253 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, exactly, I think, But I don't understand, like 254 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: how he didn't It didn't occur to him that people 255 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: might not like him if he did stuff like this, 256 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: Like did nobody say, like, maybe you shouldn't you know, 257 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: there was a reason all those rich people gave money 258 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: to charity during the Gilded Age? I mean, like the 259 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: Rockefellers had gained this out. I mean, do you think 260 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: nobody mentioned. 261 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 5: That to him? See now we're psycho analyzing. Yeah, true, 262 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 5: but maybe even harder than Grantrum. What was he thinking? 263 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 5: He surely didn't calculate all the damage it would be 264 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 5: it would do to his reputation. 265 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: Seventy one percent that is the revenue drop. Right, since 266 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: he's gotten involved, people no longer buy Tesla's basically right. 267 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 6: And how does that? 268 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 5: I mean, do you suppose people say, right now he's 269 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 5: back at Tesla he's criticizing Donald Trump, all is forgotten, forgiven. 270 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 5: I don't think so. I think that's done. I think 271 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 5: he's killed his audience there now. He's certainly gotten a 272 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 5: huge benefit in terms of SpaceX and starlink. 273 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: And also investigations that are no longer going. 274 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 5: Right, considerable benefits to that. 275 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 2: So what else do you think? 276 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: Like, so, we have this bill the Republicans wanted to 277 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: get passed by July fourth. It will likely be the 278 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: only piece of legislation Trump passes. I think that's a 279 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: fair assessment. 280 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 5: I think that's right when you certainly the only major 281 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 5: piece of legislation. I mean, I think they've passed something 282 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 5: protecting gas stoves or oh. 283 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: Yes, that reminds me of Trump's first term, right, gas stoves, 284 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: the Committee to weaponize the government. 285 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 5: Right, But yeah, no, they've they've dumped everything into this 286 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 5: one package. And man, I mean, you have to say 287 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 5: they're going to have to enact something because they have 288 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 5: no reason to exist if they're if they're unable to 289 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 5: do that. But it's still very difficult to see how 290 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 5: they thread the needle here. I mean, the way they 291 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 5: got it done in the House is basically we're saying 292 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 5: all right, well, the Senate's going to change it anyway, so. 293 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 2: Just go for it. 294 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 5: I'm not sure that's going to cut it, because you've 295 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 5: got a lot of a couple of dozen Republican House 296 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 5: members from Biden won districts or otherwise vulnerable Republicans who 297 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 5: have now walked the plank on Medicaid cuts, on food 298 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 5: stamp cuts, and on all these green energy credits. And 299 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 5: it may well be for nothing because these things will 300 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 5: be scaled back in a sense, so they didn't actually 301 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 5: achieve the purpose of this, but the vote. 302 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 6: Is still there. 303 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: You've been covering Washington for a long time, you've been 304 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: writing this column. 305 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 6: I like how you point that out each time they talk. 306 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: Well, I mean that you have some historical knowledge of 307 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: the situation. 308 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 2: You're young and spry. 309 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 6: Nothing has prepared us for this moment, right. 310 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: Yes, But I mean these people did have these jobs, certainly, 311 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: not true for all of them, Like some of them 312 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: could have probably had better jobs, but they chose these 313 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: jobs because they love power, and yet they have given 314 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: away almost all of their power to Donald Trump. So, 315 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: like you know, Paul Ryan used to get up in 316 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: the morning and say, like I am going to solve 317 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: government waste. Right, Mike Johnson gets up in the morning 318 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: and says, what I'm going to make Donald Trump happy? 319 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 6: That seems to be what he's doing. 320 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 5: Man, I guess we could go back through the you know, 321 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 5: what has motivated these guys over the ages. 322 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 6: I think it is sort of this. 323 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 5: In this case, it's the worship of the man and 324 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 5: the belief that he will do the right thing in 325 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 5: the face of all kinds of evidence showing that he 326 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 5: doesn't do the right thing. 327 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 2: So I don't really worship him. 328 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 5: Right, you were able to get the House Freedom Caucus, 329 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:24,360 Speaker 5: these are the these are the deficit hawks and all 330 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 5: that you were able to get them to vote for 331 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 5: a four trillion dollar increase in the debt ceiling and 332 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 5: something just completely blows the lid off of anything resembling 333 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 5: fiscal responsibility. And they said, well, we trust Donald Trump, 334 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 5: and so it's not going to happen here, but there 335 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 5: it's going to happen with the Doge package, and that's 336 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:45,719 Speaker 5: all going to work. And now we see that that 337 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 5: was you know again, the nine billion dollars, that was nothing. 338 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 5: And Musk has you know, walked away from any notion 339 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 5: of you know, substantially cutting the federal government. 340 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 6: So what motivates them is? 341 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 5: You know, it's the question I tried to answer and 342 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 5: writing in The Destructionists, you know, going all the way 343 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 5: back to Nude Gingrich. I mean, obviously you can't have 344 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 5: any daylight between you and Donald Trump if you're going 345 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 5: to keep your political career. 346 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 6: So what good is it doing you? 347 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 4: You know? 348 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 5: I mean think about a guy like Tip Roy, who 349 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 5: I think actually believes the stuff he says about federal 350 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 5: spending and shrinking government and all that, and now he's 351 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,239 Speaker 5: just another piece of the machine that is expanding that 352 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:26,120 Speaker 5: federal government. 353 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 6: So at some. 354 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 5: Point it just became about power for its own sake, 355 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 5: but impotence in terms of the actual policy. 356 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 1: But I want to add something here, which is I 357 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: think there's the same thing that there was before we're Republicans, 358 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: certainly in the Senate, but I also think in the 359 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: House that when they're alone, they're all like this. 360 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 2: Guy, Oh my god. Like I don't think. 361 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 1: They're like this guy, Yeah, this is great, Like I 362 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 1: love a reality television host. We're all going to get reelected. 363 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: This is going to be great. Like I think they 364 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: still understand that. I mean, We've seen one thing. It's 365 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: that Trump can't defy political gravity. But Terry Lake, right, 366 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 1: Roy Moore, those people can't. 367 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 5: Well, it's the perpetual story that all the people around 368 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 5: Trump get destroyed by Trump. You know, must be the 369 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 5: most recent example of that, and Trump just walks along 370 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 5: as if unscathed, as if nothing had happened. Now, I 371 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 5: think what you're describing is probably true of most in 372 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 5: the Senate, most Republicans in the Senate. It's probably true 373 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 5: of congressional leadership. It's not true of the three dozen 374 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 5: or so in the House Freedom Caucus, the truly maga, 375 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 5: the true believers, you know, who actually get up in 376 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 5: the morning and really care about all right, well let's 377 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 5: make sure there's no DEI and can't have any trans rise, 378 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 5: you know, people who are actually fired up about you know, 379 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 5: that kind of thing. 380 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 6: So you know, it's a mixture of both of them. 381 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 6: So how were they able to get what is it? Only? 382 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 5: I think it was only one no vote, one courageous 383 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 5: present vote from Andy as right, the head of the 384 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 5: Freedom Caucus, and then two guys who apparently fell asleeve. 385 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 6: In that was the sat move. 386 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 5: They didn't vote for it, but they didn't vote against them, 387 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 5: but that you know, that's all political fear. And you know, 388 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 5: you see the way he's now, the way he's been 389 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 5: going after Ran Paul, and heck, you know Rick Scott, 390 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 5: and you know he is able to bludgeon them. It 391 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 5: is a fair question to ask what these guys think 392 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:35,959 Speaker 5: they've gotten out of it. So, I mean, they get 393 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 5: to wear the congressional pin on their lapel, and they 394 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 5: have lots of people calling them sir and ma'am, and 395 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 5: they get to go on Fox News. But the few 396 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 5: who came into into government with the conservative principles of 397 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 5: of free trade and limited government and individual liberties, well 398 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 5: I don't think they're delivering much home to their constituents 399 00:20:59,040 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 5: on that count. 400 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 2: That is definitely true. 401 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 1: I wonder if you could sort of talk about we 402 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: have these governorships, We have a bunch of races happening 403 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: on the local level in a bunch of different places. 404 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: We have the trade war that is the you know 405 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: has been postponed again. 406 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 6: Right, Well, yes and no, but yeah. 407 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 2: Yes and no. Right, So talk us through where we 408 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 2: are with trade. 409 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 5: The elections piece of that is important too. Where are 410 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 5: we with trade? Well, it depends on when your listeners 411 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 5: are listening, because that's going to change by the minute. 412 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 5: One thing that hasn't changed is the sense of chaos, 413 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 5: right so you know, whether it's the tariffs are one 414 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 5: hundred and forty five percent against China or no, no, 415 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 5: maybe they're down to fifty percent, or bit they're up 416 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,880 Speaker 5: to one hundred percent. You can't possibly know if you're 417 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 5: running a business what the tariff regime is going to be. 418 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 5: You do know that tariffs are overall higher, and you 419 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 5: do know that everybody's afraid to invest. And now there's 420 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 5: this added element of chaos with the courts. Will they 421 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 5: be able to invalidate the whole thing or you know, 422 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 5: now it appears the appeals court is going to be 423 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 5: a trio of Trump appointed judges. Almost Okay, maybe he's 424 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 5: back on with his tariffs. So the key there is 425 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 5: not the level of tarifs, but just you know the 426 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 5: level of chaos. And clearly China is putting the screws 427 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 5: to Trump right now. So that's not going anywhere. We 428 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 5: are going to be seeing that in terms of prices, 429 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,919 Speaker 5: which gets your initial question about the elections. Now, I 430 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,479 Speaker 5: just did a piece it's coming out this week on 431 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 5: you know, I've just been watching all of this. Democrats suck, 432 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 5: Democrats need to do this. The Democratic brand is toxic, 433 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 5: the weak, the woke. I counted, you know, I just 434 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 5: did an ex assert there were three five hundred and 435 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 5: fifteen occurrences of Democrats need to just in the last month. 436 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 5: And yeah, their brand sucks, but you know what else, 437 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 5: The Republican brand sucks, like four or five points less 438 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 5: than the Democratic brand sucks. And if you look at 439 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 5: the generic ballot, you know, when you ask people, you 440 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 5: know which part you're going to support in your local election, 441 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 5: you know you're in New York district. Democrats are leading 442 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 5: that they have been leading that consistently throughout the polls. 443 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 5: I mean, even when you look at wacky poles like Rasmussen, 444 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 5: I don't think we're looking at some you know, historic 445 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 5: repudiation of Trump what we've seen so far, but you've 446 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 5: certainly seen and the special elections we've had pretty much 447 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,919 Speaker 5: a clean sweep for Democrats, and they certainly look to 448 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 5: be profiting from not doing anything other than not being 449 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 5: Donald Trump. Which is why I think there's a lot 450 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 5: of there's a lot of wasted time saying well, you 451 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 5: know what should Democrats do this, that or the other thing. 452 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 5: They're democrats. You can't organize them around any one particular principle, 453 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 5: you know, until and unless you have a party leader, 454 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 5: which isn't going to happen for a couple of years. 455 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 5: The only thing they have to do is not be 456 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 5: Donald Trump. And that does seem to be working for them. 457 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:52,719 Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, thank you. Dana Milbank, Molly, pleasure 458 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 2: as always to talk with you. 459 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: Mark Dunkelman is the author of Why Nothing Works, Who 460 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 1: Killed Progress and How to Bring It back? 461 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 2: Welcome to Fast Politics. 462 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 4: Mark, Thank you Groll to be here. 463 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: So your book is called Why Nothing Works, and this 464 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: is a topic we are very involved in right now, 465 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: and it's sort of why the best efforts of government 466 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: sometimes don't produce the results we want. So get me 467 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 1: into how you got here and why you decided to 468 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 1: write this book. 469 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 4: So I was taking the train into New York a 470 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 4: lot back, like a decade ago, and when you were 471 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 4: at Brown, I was at Brown, I was living in Washington, 472 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 4: I had clients in New York. I was like always 473 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,160 Speaker 4: on the train, always coming to Penn Station and always 474 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 4: being like. 475 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 2: So Amtrak got you here? 476 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 4: Is what you're saying, Amtrak got me there, and I 477 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 4: would end up at Penn Station, which is like was 478 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 4: like it's a little bit of now, but like back then, 479 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 4: like it was just like totally a rat pit, Like 480 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 4: it was the grossest. I mean, people don't realize it's 481 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 4: but Penn Station is like a second most heavily traffic 482 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 4: transit hub in the world. Like more people go through 483 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 4: Penn Station than go through La Guardia, Newark, and Kennedy 484 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 4: combined on any given day. It is the city's front door. 485 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 4: And that's because people are coming there from New Jersey, 486 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 4: from Long Island, from Connecticut, from Washington for Boston. Like 487 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 4: everyone's converging in this thing. And like I'm sitting there 488 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 4: thinking to myself as I'm reading this old classic liberal 489 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 4: book called The Powerbroker about Robert Moses who like destroyed 490 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 4: the South Bronx by building the Cross Bronx Expressway. Why 491 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 4: was he able to do like this crazy thing while 492 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 4: everyone was screaming at him to stop. And then like 493 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 4: decades later, like no one objects to a nicer Penn Station, 494 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 4: but they can't get there. And so like that set 495 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 4: me on this journey of like what happened to progressivism, 496 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 4: that we can't get big things done anymore. And like 497 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 4: I realized over the course of time, like we'd actually 498 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 4: done it to ourselves. Like for all that we complained 499 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 4: about the Republicans and the Conservatives, and we complained about 500 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 4: Trump and Reagan and Bush and whatnot, like this is 501 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 4: something that we did do ourselves, which means like one, 502 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 4: like that's sort of embarrassing, but two, it means if 503 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 4: we get it to ourselves, we can get ourselves out 504 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,719 Speaker 4: of it. But I don't think that most of us 505 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 4: are even thinking of it that way. 506 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: So the net neet here is regulation or something else. 507 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 4: The net net is like we progressives used to be 508 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 4: leave that, like we could solve the problems if we 509 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 4: put power in the hands of big institutions, Like the 510 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 4: whole Upper South didn't have electricity, so like we and 511 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 4: like private utilities weren't going to extend wires to these 512 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 4: poor farmers who were like living in the nineteenth century. 513 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 4: So we as progressives during the Nobul era, created the 514 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 4: Tennessee Valley Authority, and we hired federal workers and they 515 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 4: built the wires and the power stations and all this stuff. 516 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 4: They did these big things. They condemned whole tracks of 517 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 4: land so they could build dams and reservoirs, and they 518 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 4: reforested hillside did they did all this? 519 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: This is like Lyndon Johnson Master the Senate stuff, right, Yes, yeah, 520 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: we're going full Robert Carrow and yes, podcast right. 521 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 4: So we're going for Robert Carrow. And like back then, 522 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 4: we empowered these big bureaucrats to do these big things. 523 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 4: And then like people like Robert Carrow writing in the 524 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 4: nineteen seventies, so a few decades later and like Ralph 525 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,679 Speaker 4: Nader and Rachel Carson and like all this stuff that's 526 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 4: happening in the cities and seventies were like we're like whoa, 527 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 4: Like these big powerful people that we've empowered to do 528 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 4: these big things actually are bad, right, Like like Robert 529 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 4: McNamara got us into the Vietnam War, right, Robert Moses, 530 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 4: who the power brokers about, Like you know, built the 531 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 4: Cross Bronx Expressway like the bureaucrats. 532 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: And he hurt a lot of poor people. The thinking 533 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: is that these moves towards progress hurt a lot of people, 534 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: and so they need to be looked at differently. And 535 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 1: looking at them differently then made democratic politicians afraid to 536 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 1: do stuff. 537 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 4: Well, it's not even they continue to say they wanted 538 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 4: to do stuff, but they wanted to create procedures that 539 00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 4: meet it so that when they wanted to do stuff, 540 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:01,440 Speaker 4: like if it was going to hurt poor people, or 541 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 4: it was gonna hurt like historic buildings, or it was 542 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,959 Speaker 4: gonna hurt the environment or an invagered species or uh, 543 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 4: you know whatever, Like we created a zillion things that 544 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 4: you had to check off before you could do anything big, 545 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 4: and like that was all well intentioned and like frankly, 546 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 4: like back then, like when like it was that like 547 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 4: these like white men and like charcoal suits and fedoras 548 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 4: were just like telling people to move out of your 549 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 4: houses because we got to build a highway there, or 550 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 4: we're going to do slum clearance, like whatever. It was 551 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 4: like it was appropriate to like put more checks on 552 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 4: these establishment figures. But now we put so many checks 553 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 4: on them that like literally in many cases, you can't 554 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 4: get obvious stuff done. And it makes voters enraged. It 555 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,959 Speaker 4: makes even progressives enraged. And when we are enraged and 556 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 4: government isn't working, and the Democratic Party is the party 557 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 4: of government and government doesn't work, it's not good for us. 558 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 4: It's good for Trump and like this to me, like 559 00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 4: for all that we can complain about all the things 560 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 4: that he's and like absolutely we should call them out 561 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 4: and like we should fight back and whatnot. This is 562 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 4: the sort of right. 563 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: But this is a different issue than that. This is 564 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: something that's separate. I'm very much subscribed to the idea 565 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: that you can walk into you gum, you can deal 566 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 1: with the Democratic parties problems. One of them, I think 567 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: big mistakes of twenty sixteen was thinking that everything, that 568 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: every problem was caused by Trump and not examining the 569 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: world that got us there. 570 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 4: I think that's exactly right. We've created a system that 571 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 4: doesn't work like that, that's our doing in many cases. 572 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 4: And like people may not like him, but like at 573 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,719 Speaker 4: least he says I'm going to blow up the system. 574 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 4: And we too often get caught in this in the 575 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 4: traff of being like no, no, no, the establishment works well. 576 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 4: Like everyone's been to the DMV. Everyone's like realizes that, 577 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 4: like we've got all this clean energy that we can harness, 578 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 4: but we're not getting it because there's no transmission line. 579 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 4: There's clean energy in Canada. Massachusetts wants to have clean 580 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 4: energy message doesn't sit next to Canada, so you have 581 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 4: to find some state that's allowing a transmission line through it. 582 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 4: And basically all of them said no, so like we 583 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 4: couldn't get the clean energy. Like that's frustrating to people. 584 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 4: And it's super expensive, like the Second Avenue subway in 585 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 4: New York because like the most expensive two miles of 586 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 4: public Cranso ever built, Like like it's way more expensive 587 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,479 Speaker 4: here than it is in England, and England is more 588 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 4: expensive than Spain, and Spain is more expensive than Turkey, 589 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 4: and like we're just at the top of the food chain. 590 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 4: And it's not because like concrete and steel are more 591 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 4: expensive here though they may be a little bit, or 592 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 4: the labor is more. It's because there's so uncertainly that 593 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 4: there's so many, so many barriers you have to clear, 594 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 4: and so much uncertainty in like are you actually going 595 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 4: to get to do this project or whatever it is 596 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 4: that like nothing works, and like people are just sitting 597 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 4: there around and being like geez, Like the whole system 598 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 4: seems broken and Democrats seem to be on the side 599 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 4: of the system. That's lousy, right. 600 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: I think the people who listen this podcasts to understand 601 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: nuance and off. Yeah, to know that you can both 602 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: see how Trump was elected and how this led to that, 603 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: you know, without saying like you can't criticize this because 604 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: it somehow will enable more trump Ism, when in fact, 605 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: the lack of criticism of this is what God is 606 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: to Trump is. So I wonder if you could explain 607 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: to me sort of what you think the ways in 608 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: which you could streamline this would be The question is 609 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: really the streamlining things to make a world in which 610 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: you can do these things you need to do. 611 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 4: Yes, I see this as like a continuum, And at 612 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 4: one end you have the Robert Moses and Robert McNamara 613 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 4: folks who like are like, I'm going to do stuff. 614 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 4: I don't give a damn what anyone says to me, 615 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 4: Like I'm going to listen to no criticism, I'm going 616 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 4: to broach no compromise. Right, That's one end. The other 617 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 4: end is a system in which if anyone objects to 618 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 4: anything like, the project goes down. And that's sort of 619 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 4: what happened with with Station right, Like, there are lots 620 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 4: of projects you can point to in this country where 621 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 4: like someone doesn't want more housing near their house and 622 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 4: they claim that, you know, like that's the only place 623 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 4: where this kind of orchid grows. So like you can't 624 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 4: write like it's too many, So like it is a 625 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 4: middle ground between these two where everyone has a voice, 626 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 4: Like everyone who has a is going to be affected 627 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 4: by a project, is able to say to the person 628 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 4: that is ultimately going to decide, like, here's my concern, 629 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 4: and then that person or institution is given the responsibility 630 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 4: of weighing all the stuff, like is it worth it 631 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 4: to like endanger this species if we get this much 632 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 4: more housing, or we're able to take this many cars 633 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 4: off the street, or whatever it is. And we need 634 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 4: to have some ability for someone to have some discretion 635 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 4: to make a choice without it being like incredibly litigious 636 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 4: and going to court and like end us processes. 637 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: I want you to explain Penn Station, because for my 638 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: own adification, I'm in and out of there all the time. 639 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: What it looks like they did was build a whole 640 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 1: other station under the post office and now you have 641 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: to walk through the old Penn station to get to 642 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 1: the new Penn station. Is that what happened? And is 643 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,719 Speaker 1: there was there some level of crazy that led to that. 644 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 4: So the problem with Penn Station is that there are 645 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 4: too many people who have skin in the game. There's Amtrak, 646 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 4: which owns the old Penn station. There's Madison Square Garden, 647 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 4: which it's above it. There's Bornado, which has like the 648 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 4: which owns all the property around there and all the businesses. 649 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 4: There's the community Board, there's the state, there's the Long 650 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 4: Island Railroad, the Amtrak and the New Jersey Traider. Like 651 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 4: everybody's got some like vested interest and so like, you're 652 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 4: absolutely right. What they ended up doing was saying, there's 653 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 4: no way we can move Madison Square Garden. We'd have 654 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 4: to give too much money to the Dolans who own 655 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 4: that property, and like where would they put the place? 656 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,959 Speaker 4: For the Knicks and the Rangers play like like, so 657 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 4: what we're gonna do is we're gonna take this old 658 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 4: underused post office across Eighth Avenue and turn that into 659 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 4: a train hall. Even though the trains still basically stop 660 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 4: under Mathis Square Garden. You end up having to walk back. 661 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 4: So that's sort of bananas. But like now at least 662 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 4: there is a nicer place to stay. And I will say, 663 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 4: like pensation today is nicer than it was. Like, let's 664 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 4: give Jenna Lieber and the MPT credit for that. 665 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, as someone who also just spends a ton of 666 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 1: time on Amtrak and truly does despise spending seven hundred 667 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: dollars for a train ticket, you know, some crazy amount 668 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: of money. I bought a plane ticket for a fifth 669 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: of that, So what the fuck is going on here? 670 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 4: The trick of it here is that Amtrak is a 671 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 4: federally owned corporation, and so Republicans are constantly saying, privatize at, 672 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 4: privatize at, privatizet And then they say, but I'm a 673 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 4: senator from Alabama, and I'm a Senator from Missouri, and 674 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 4: I'm a senator from Indiana, and you must send trains 675 00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 4: to my state. I want my constitution to have it. 676 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 4: So they're talking on it both sides of their mouth, right, 677 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,880 Speaker 4: Like the profitable part of Amtrak, he could very easily 678 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 4: run a profitable railroad that goes between Washington, Philadelphia and 679 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 4: New York Providence in Boston like that, Like that part 680 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 4: of it makes sense that seven hundred dollars you're paying 681 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 4: is going to subsidize this larger corporation that is running 682 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 4: these wildly inefficient like nobody uses them trains to parts 683 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 4: of the country just because members of the of Congress 684 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 4: are demanded in exchange for their votes to give Amtrak 685 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 4: a federal subsidy. So the whole thing is totally bananas. 686 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 4: It's really quite angering. You're absolutely right, your train ticket 687 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 4: from to Washington should not be that expensive, but a 688 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:46,240 Speaker 4: lot of that money is going to subsidize train service 689 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:47,839 Speaker 4: between Tennessee and Mississippi. 690 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 1: So why, I mean, couldn't you just fucking privatize it. 691 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: Why are democrats not being like, okay, let's privatize it. 692 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 4: Well, because it was private until the nineteenth seventies and 693 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 4: we were going to lose train service altogether. So the 694 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 4: federal government came in and saved in the way that 695 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 4: we think of like big tech today, like you know, Google, Amazon, 696 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 4: like these huge corporations that like nobody could touch. That's 697 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 4: what the railroads were at the beginning of the twentieth century, 698 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 4: like the Pennsylvania Railroad, the New York Central Railroad, the 699 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 4: Baltimore O Highlight. They were these huge, incredibly important corporations 700 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 4: and they ran across the country and people hated them 701 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 4: because they were so big, and like if they charged 702 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 4: too much, there was something you could do because like 703 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 4: only the New York Central Ranch of that town or 704 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 4: whatever it was, right, right, they could raise prices on 705 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 4: sending trade like they were big, scary was vand or 706 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 4: built and like these guys in top hats and they 707 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:46,880 Speaker 4: sat like ornate boardrooms in Philadelphia and told everybody what 708 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 4: they had to pay for stuff. Like in the same 709 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 4: way that we, like most of your listeners are going 710 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 4: to be angry about these big tech corporations. Is the 711 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,360 Speaker 4: same dynamic. But over the course of the twentieth century, 712 00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 4: we built roads and highways, we subsidized airlines, and like 713 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 4: all these huge corporations were like reduced to nothing. So 714 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 4: like the federal government came in and saved any railroad 715 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 4: stuff at all, Like it was all going to go 716 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,880 Speaker 4: like right, they had enormous capital expenses because they had 717 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 4: tracks all over the country, and the federal government came 718 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 4: over and saved them. And that's the beginning of the 719 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 4: Amtrak in like the seventies and eighties. And now we've 720 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:24,720 Speaker 4: got this strange Frankenstein monster which has a profitable service 721 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 4: in the Northeast corridor in a couple of other places, 722 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 4: and we're subsidizing it, and we're subsidizing ridiculous routes because 723 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:37,280 Speaker 4: that's what Washington demands mostly Republicans. 724 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 2: So insane. 725 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 1: All right, so give me your quick fixes for all 726 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: the things that are making me irritated, because I'm now 727 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 1: very irritated about this. 728 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,399 Speaker 4: Well, here's what I think. I think that for all 729 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,359 Speaker 4: the Trump talks about the deep state, the truth is 730 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 4: that in most cases, the people who are the deep state, 731 00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 4: like the bureaucrats who are like trying to figure stuff 732 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 4: out like they are, or they live scared, right, they 733 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 4: are constantly afraid that they're going to get slapped down 734 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 4: by the White House, or slapped down by Congress, or 735 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,800 Speaker 4: slept by by a lawsuit. They can't make decisions quickly. 736 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 4: They can't take any risks, right. They know that if 737 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,839 Speaker 4: they want to do a big project and it's got 738 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 4: some cost, that it's going to cost a there's going 739 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 4: to be a corner of a national park that's going 740 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 4: to be developed, or there's going to be some houses 741 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,280 Speaker 4: that have to be playing through eminent domain. Like everyone 742 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,959 Speaker 4: is running scared, so nothing works. I want to give 743 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 4: government back the ability to make discretionary decisions in a 744 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 4: pretty expeditious way where we accept that there are costs 745 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,480 Speaker 4: to progress, and we're going to accept those costs if 746 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 4: they're good for working class people generally. Like that should 747 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 4: be our brand, as Democrats should be. We're going to 748 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 4: make the tough choices that are good for the working class, 749 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,879 Speaker 4: whereas the Republicans want to do things that are good 750 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,320 Speaker 4: for the very rich and they are not actually getting 751 00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 4: stuffed downe like those is going to turn out to 752 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,840 Speaker 4: make government less efficient, less useful. But we should be 753 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 4: the ones that want to do government reform so that 754 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,799 Speaker 4: the bureaucracy finally works again like it did decades ago. 755 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: I want you to give me one example of how 756 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,800 Speaker 1: I mean. This stuff is fascinating and I'm super interested 757 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,440 Speaker 1: in it, But give me one example of a way 758 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 1: where we can do this. 759 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,800 Speaker 4: Okay, As I said earlier, there is clean water generated 760 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 4: hydro power in Canada. In Quebec. They've got dams, they 761 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 4: got lots of power. They would love to sell the 762 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,799 Speaker 4: United States and they'd like to get it to Massachusetts, 763 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 4: which wants to buy it. Because if you buy enough 764 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 4: power from Canada, you could basically do the equivalent of 765 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 4: taking seven hundred thousand cars off the road, like all 766 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 4: those tail pipe missions. So it's great. The problem is 767 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:43,600 Speaker 4: that in order to do that, you need to build 768 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,359 Speaker 4: a transmission line through Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, and New York, 769 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 4: and basically none of those states want to do it. 770 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 4: Somebody needs to be able to say, listen, Maine, we're 771 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 4: going to give you a good deal. We're going to 772 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 4: pay you a bunch, you're going to get some of 773 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,319 Speaker 4: the clean energy for free. We're going to subsidize you know, 774 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 4: nice better furnaces for poor people in Maine. But you 775 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 4: have to allow this transmission line to go through. 776 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 2: Why don't they want it? 777 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 4: They believe that it's going to ruin a portion of 778 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 4: the main Woods and there's going to be, you know, 779 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,359 Speaker 4: across the Appalachian Trial are going to be wires, and 780 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,440 Speaker 4: everybody along has some little objection and wants to get 781 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 4: their little extra piece. There needs to be someone big, 782 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 4: some big institution they can say listen, I hear you 783 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 4: main Like, we're going to do what we can to 784 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,240 Speaker 4: make it so that when you're in this gorge or whatever, 785 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:36,279 Speaker 4: like your site line is not affected by a transmission 786 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,799 Speaker 4: wire or whatever it is. But we're going to do 787 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 4: it like this has been going on in Maine. Since 788 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 4: twenty sixteen. Charlie Baker cut this deal in twenty sixteen. 789 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,720 Speaker 4: It is now twenty twenty five. The line hasn't been built. 790 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 4: We need a process by which everybody gets to have 791 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,360 Speaker 4: their say, but then someone is able to say, yes, 792 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,840 Speaker 4: we're going to build the line. And my book is 793 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 4: just a whole series of stories like this about how 794 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 4: well intentioned efforts to make it so that like a 795 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,760 Speaker 4: little town in Maine that doesn't want the transmission line 796 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 4: has some say and like whether it goes near a 797 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,120 Speaker 4: school or not, or et cetera, et cetera, but that 798 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,799 Speaker 4: we've built so many checks into the system that like 799 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:12,799 Speaker 4: no one can make a decision, and then nothing gets 800 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 4: done and then everyone's angry. 801 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 1: I'm so depressed. This was very good and interesting. Thank 802 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:21,640 Speaker 1: you for coming on. I hope you'll come back. 803 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:23,839 Speaker 4: I would love to do it. This is a great show. 804 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:25,879 Speaker 4: I love your audience and I love you so thanks 805 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:31,440 Speaker 4: for having me on. No mormical Food. 806 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 2: Jesse Cannon bi junk Fast. 807 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,600 Speaker 3: You know what we need more of medical journals. That's 808 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,879 Speaker 3: what the world needs. So RFK Junior. He's on the 809 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 3: case and I can't wait to read the Maha World 810 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,400 Speaker 3: Report and Journal or the Maha Journal of Medicine, because 811 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:51,640 Speaker 3: he's going to make them. 812 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,759 Speaker 2: It's not going to be called Maha. It's going to 813 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:56,239 Speaker 2: be called ha ha. 814 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:05,320 Speaker 5: Okay, I'm sorry. 815 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:04,160 Speaker 1: Miss Yeah, it's going to be called ha ha and 816 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,920 Speaker 1: uh haha. None of us are going to be laughing. 817 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:11,279 Speaker 1: Very scary stuff. This guy should not be in charge 818 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:17,959 Speaker 1: of our medicine. That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. 819 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:24,160 Speaker 1: Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear 820 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,879 Speaker 1: the best minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. 821 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:31,920 Speaker 1: If you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a 822 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,400 Speaker 1: friend and keep the conversation going. 823 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.